May 29, 2026

160: Toxic Workplaces Just Got Expensive: What The New Psychological Safety Laws Mean For Vet Practices. With Rhonda Andrews

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A surgeon hurls a scalpel across theatre. It clatters off the wall. Nobody looks up.

Twenty minutes later he's in the tearoom offering everyone a biscuit, and someone shrugs: "That's just him when he's stressed."

If you've worked in veterinary practice for any length of time, you've got your own version of that story - maybe a bit less dramatic, but still things that completely destroy psychological safety. This episode is about that stuff, and the new psychosocial safety laws now rolling out across Australia that say plainly: no, actually, that's not acceptable.

To make sense of what that looks like on a normal Tuesday in a normal practice, you'll hear from psychologist Rhonda Andrews, who works across high-pressure industries - emergency departments, the courts, and the veterinary profession - and who has spent years watching them all wrestle with the same problem: people breaking.

This conversation is not about “just be more resilient”, but about systems. Rhonda makes a genuinely good-news case that these laws aren't more bureaucracy to dread - they're the push our profession has needed all along.

You'll hear

  • Why the things you've always filed under "just part the job" might now legally count as a psychological workplace injury - with consequences attached
  • The myth spreading fastest right now - that bosses can no longer have an honest performance conversation - and why that's flatly wrong
  • What the new psychosocial safety laws actually require of you as a practice owner
  • Why this a team problem, not just something for management to sort out
  • Why "workload" is almost never the real problem - and the thing breaking your team underneath it that owners consistently miss
  • The one shift available to everyone in the building - whatever their title - that changes culture without a single policy change

A note: this is the second in a small psych-safety miniseries. If you haven't heard Episode 158 with Dr Rebecca Faris on the AVA Thrive programme, start there for the bigger picture.

Resources:

  • Barrington Centre - Rhonda's psychosocial safety seminars (two online sessions, plus an in-person Melbourne day) and the Vet ECM training programmes for owners, leaders, and new supervisors: barringtoncentre.com

For show notes, clinical content and the newsletter head to thevetvault.com, and come find your people at a Vets On Tour conference - email me at info@thevetvault.com to find out about our new-grad 50% discount for Wānaka inAugust.

Psychological Safety in Veterinary Practice: What It Actually Means

Psychological safety in a veterinary practice is defined as an understanding that the workplace is a safe environment for team members to speak up, ask for help, admit mistakes, and raise concerns without fear of payback, blame, or punishment. It serves as the determining factor for whether professional risks are identified early or hidden until actual harm occurs.
In a practical, day-to-day veterinary context, psychological safety looks like:
  • Nurses flagging "near misses" in surgery or treatment without fearing they will be blamed.
  • Junior vets feeling comfortable asking for assistance with a difficult case before it escalates into a crisis.
  • Receptionists reporting client aggression immediately rather than just "putting up with it".
  • Leaders admitting when they are uncertain and inviting input from the rest of the staff.

What Psychological Safety is Not

Rhonda highlighted several "myth-busters" to clarify what this concept does not entail:
  • It is not about just "being nice": It does not mean avoiding hard conversations or lowering professional standards.
  • It is not the end of performance management: Practice owners can and should still have direct conversations about performance and conduct appraisals; these are actually essential for providing measurable feedback to the team.
  • It is not a "tick the box" exercise: It is an ongoing journey of culture and leadership, rather than a static goal or a set of administrative tasks like simply having an Employee Assistance Program (EAP).
  • It is not a "snowflake" or "woo-woo" concept: While it may sound vague, it is a critical operational system that prevents "mental health injuries" and "broken brains" caused by toxic work environments.

A Shift from Individual to Systemic Responsibility

Crucially, psychological safety marks a shift away from viewing mental health solely as an individual's problem—where the solution is simply to "be more resilient" or "do more yoga"—and toward seeing it as a systems problem. It addresses the "normalization of distress" and the culture of "toughening up" that has historically led to high rates of burnout and attrition in the profession. Instead of just giving "tools to the soldiers in the trenches," psychological safety focuses on changing the "trench warfare" system itself to ensure the environment does not cause injury in the first place.

Benefits of a Psychologically Safe Practice

When a team feels psychologically safe, the practice typically sees:
  • Higher engagement from all staff members.
  • Better patient outcomes due to improved communication and fewer errors.
  • Stronger retention, as staff no longer feel that their only option to escape an untenable environment is to leave the profession entirely.
  • Increased trust within the team, which allows for proactive rather than reactive management of workplace hazards.

How Veterinary Leaders Can Build Psychologically Safer Teams

Veterinary leaders can build psychologically safer teams by shifting their focus from individual resilience to systemic responsibility, ensuring the work environment itself does not cause "mental health injuries". Building this culture requires moving beyond "tick the box" exercises like providing counseling services and instead embedding safety into daily operations.

1. Model Vulnerability and Openness

Leaders must set the tone by admitting uncertainty and inviting input from all staff levels. This behavior signals that the practice is a safe place to speak up, ask for help, and admit mistakes without fear of "payback or punishment". Even small adjustments in tone and how questions are asked contribute significantly to the overall culture.

2. Implement "Higher Order" Work Controls

Under new legal frameworks, leaders are encouraged to look at work design rather than just symptoms of stress. Practical strategies include:
  • Creative Rostering and Variety: Varying the types of consultations (e.g., mixing short repeat visits with long diagnostic cases) to provide "intellectual refreshers".
  • Protecting Breaks: Ensuring staff have actual time away from clinical work, despite the pressure to "book it in".
  • Psychological Debriefing: Implementing informal debriefs at the end of shifts or after difficult procedures to allow the team to "release what’s happened" before going home.

3. Invest in Leadership and EQ Training

Many veterinary leaders are excellent clinicians but may lack formal training in people management and emotional intelligence (EQ). Leaders can build safer teams by:
  • Equipping themselves and upcoming supervisors with structured tools for escalating issues and managing human factors.
  • Providing measurable, direct feedback through performance appraisals, which helps staff understand their roles and feel supported rather than targeted.

4. Foster Proactive Risk Identification

Psychological safety is effectively a tool for risk management; it determines whether a nurse flags a "near miss" early or hides it until harm occurs. Leaders should encourage early reporting of:
  • Clinical "near misses" without assigning blame.
  • Client aggression or workplace bullying before it escalates.
  • Workload concerns, ensuring that when a team member "puts their hand up," they are genuinely heard rather than told to "toughen up".

5. Maintain High Standards

Building a safe team is not about "being nice" or avoiding hard conversations. Leaders must continue to address poor performance and conduct honest reviews. A psychologically safe environment actually supports high standards because it provides a clear, respectful protocol for feedback, which protects the leader from claims of bullying while setting the employee up for success.
Ultimately, leaders should view these changes as a "win-win" investment. Reducing the high cost of staff attrition and mental health claims—which can be significantly more expensive than physical injuries—improves the practice's "bottom line" while enhancing patient outcomes.

Topics and time stamps

04:52 Rising Mental Health Claims

08:41 Mythbusting Owners Fears1

0:37 Defining Psychological Safety

12:37 Vets Staying in Bad Jobs

14:28 Sponsor Break Vets On Tour

16:03 Systems vs Individual Responsibility

19:35 Burnout Stats and Human Cost

21:17 Who Can Influence Culture?

22:46 Is Vet Work Uniquely Hard?

24:05 Human Sector Parallels

29:15 Business Model Reality Check

30:18 ROI of Retention

32:20 Psychosocial Safety Laws

37:34 Workload and Rostering Fixes4

2:44 Leadership and Being Heard

45:27 From Blame to Pathways

50:27 Training Programs and Teams

52:58 Myth Busting Performance Reviews

54:27 Final Takeaways

Hello, before we jump in, in this episode we will be talking about psychological safety and the new psychosocial safety laws in Australia.
If you're a practice owner and this topic worries you, then I think you're going to enjoy this episode.
In the meantime, or after you listen to this, if you want to dig deeper, our guest for this episode, Rhonda Andrews, is hosting a series of seminars on exactly this topic.
There are two online ones on the 2nd and the 9th of July and an in person one in Melbourne on Wednesday the 15th of July.
They also have in depth training programs on this and other topics at barringtoncentre.com.
Links in the show description.
When Workplace Stress Becomes Psychological Injury
OK, here's our podcast.
Speaker 2
Here's a go as a young vet couple of years out.
I was working for a boss.
Good vet, skilled surgeon, but the man had a temper.
I remember him once throwing his scalpel blade across theatre in frustration.
Not specifically aimed at anyone, just kind of at everyone.
I could still clearly remember the clatter of it, the silence that followed.
Here's the part that I think about now.
The nurses didn't even look up.
Finish the surgery, wake up the patient.
Nobody said anything, not then and not later, not to him or to his business partner. 20 minutes later he'd be in the tea room joking, offering everyone a biscuit.
Don't worry about it, That's just him when he's stressed.
Now imagine approaching that guy to discuss a problem that you might have with a job, oh God forbid, with him.
I worked there for years, and for years I thought that was just what work was.
Some people throw scalpels.
You keep your head down, literally.
You finish the surgery, have a biscuit.
I'm telling you this because I want you to notice something not about him, about us, about how quickly a thing that should be a really big deal becomes just a thing that happens somewhere between an incision and biscuits.
This is an episode about that stuff we've all decided is just a job, the stuff that's so baked in that we've stopped seeing it.
And about a set of laws, actual laws in Australia with actual real finds attached that are starting to say, no, actually, that's not the job.
That's the psychological workplace injury waiting to happen and someone is responsible for it.
I'm Ebert Hemstra and you are listening to the vet film where together we duck the scalpels that this vet life sometimes throws at us, Or better yet, learn how to stop them from being thrown in the first place. 2 episodes ago.
So episode 158, we spoke to Doctor Rebecca Ferris from the ABA's Thrive program about psychological safety.
If you haven't heard it, go back to it.
She lays out the bigger picture beautifully.
Now heads up, we've got a couple more episodes coming to cover this territory from different perspectives.
I got a bit obsessed.
So we have a bit of a psych safety miniseries building in, but in this conversation, we approach this topic from a psychologist's angle.
Rhonda Andrews is someone I keep coming back to.
She's a psychologist who works across high pressure industries, emergency departments, the courts, the veterinary profession.
And she spent the last few years watching how each of these industries deal with the same problem, people breaking.
She's also one of the voices on this topic who doesn't make you feel like the answer is just be more resilient or do more yoga.
She's interested in the system.
I wanted to talk to her because I had a question that was bugging me.
If the new laws are actually here and they actually have teeth, what does all of this look like on a Tuesday morning in a normal practice with a normal team?
What changes?
What stops?
And is any of this going to fix the thing that made me 20 something years ago feel like I couldn't talk to the person who was meant to be looking out for me?
Here's Rhonda.
Speaker 3
How do we describe what you talk about the crazy stuff?
Speaker 4
Crazy stuff.
I.
Speaker 3
Was going to put the positive spin on and say making sure that our workplaces are well, I can't get past the term psychologically safe, which is exactly what we want to talk about psychological safety today.
Speaker 4
Exactly.
And it is, you know, I was a bit flippant there, but it is important that people see it, both the seriousness side of it, but also the normality of it and just how critical it is about how we work together.
Speaker 3
Why are we talking about psychological safety in the workplace now in where are we heading towards the middle of 2026?
Speaker 4
Yeah, good question.
The Alarming Rise of Mental Health Claims in Workplaces
And it's actually getting a lot of chatter in the social media at the moment.
But I think if we have a look at it and what's been happening in Australia over the last few years, what we've seen in between 2023 and 2026 is that if we put it in the terms of mental health, injuries are actually now accounting for around 12% of all serious workers compensation claims.
And not only has that really increased, but what's important is they carry the longest recovery time and also the highest payouts, which if I compare it to physical injuries, that's often four times the cost and generally 4 times the length of time for recovery.
So understandably that's got the regulators and got all the professional bodies full attention to be saying what's going on, what can we do about this?
Speaker 2
Till health injury.
Speaker 3
Never heard that term before.
Is that 12% run?
That's not very specific.
Is this?
Is that an Australian figure?
Speaker 4
Correct.
Speaker 3
Australian workplaces in general OK mental health injuries.
So in other words, something happened at work that caused such mental distress, trauma, whatever that I had to say.
I can't work because this happened similar to I've fuller of a ladder and I've broken my femur and I can't come to work.
I've something's happened and I've broken my brain that can't come to work.
Speaker 4
Yeah, that's exactly right.
And I think regulators now are being very explicit because you know, previously people would go, oh, we have resilience days, we have well-being days, we've got the EAP, you know, we've got counselling for you.
But the regulators are saying that actually isn't enough any longer.
We're not going to just be looking at from an individual perspective, but we need to look at this from a systems perspective.
And when we talk about the veterinary profession, you know, we already know that the profession is facing some of the highest burnout, distress and attrition rates in healthcare.
And so therefore, it is really relevant to talk about it.
And I don't want to be 1 who's going, oh, let's always talk about the bad things that are happening.
I think we can combine it into a good news story here.
It's not doom and gloom.
I'm really a great advocate for these changes because it's not going to be something that is just on the employer or just on the practice.
It's actually a shared responsibility and I think it gets people in the room talking rather than in opposition.
So that's what I'd like to talk about today so that people feel there's a real can do attitude that's going to get a win, win for everyone.
Speaker 3
Yeah, it, it is a positive spin.
I am.
If I was a practice owner, I'd be nervous and feel like it will get to the owner perspective.
But I think there's a risk to feel like, you know, it's more bureaucracy and more bullshit I've got to deal with.
But the goal is good, right?
It is.
Again, if we go back to physical safety, back in the day we used to send children down chimneys to clean the chimneys.
And at some point we will say, hey, we can't do that.
It's bad for people.
And it's the same thing.
In the 25 years that I've been a vet, at the early stages, we complained about the psychological state of our workplaces and it's rough in the burnout and stuff.
And then we talk about it a lot.
And actually one of the frustrating things about doing this podcast is I talk about it a lot.
And then often I get this feeling of, but what are we actually doing about this?
So this does feel like, well, now we're getting traction, then we're saying, well, we need to stop talking about it and here's what you need to do.
So I'd love to get into the details of that.
What Psychological Safety Truly Means in Practice
Exactly.
And I think let's get right up front, Hubert, that let's do a couple of myth Busters because I'm hearing this chatter in the social media all the time.
Number one that I'm hearing is, Oh my God, What this means is I can't have a decent conversation about performance any longer.
I've got to be nice.
I've got to be doing all the soft skills stuff and I can't actually say, hey, Hubert, you're not cutting the mustard.
You're actually not doing your job.
That's not the case.
Performance management, performance appraisal is still a really key part of any business and particularly in the veterinary industry where that direct feedback is really important because vets, vet nurses, practice managers, the reception administration staff all need measurable feedback.
So that is not the case that you've got to throw all that out the window.
The second Myth Buster app that I'm seeing in the chatter in the social media about at the moment is that psychological safety is an end game.
It actually isn't.
It's actually a journey.
It's about culture, it's about leadership, it's about how we operate on a day-to-day basis.
It is not a tick the box exercise.
And so don't let's go back where we were of we'd have this list of oh, have we got an EAP tick?
Have we done this tick?
Have we done this tick?
It's actually not like that.
It's actually a systems change of how do we all contribute to an environment that allows all of us to not only be, but add to the psychological safety of all of us.
And that is around being able to speak up, being able to admit mistakes, being able to raise concerns without fear of payback or punishment.
Speaker 3
So let's dig into that a little bit because we keep saying that term psychological safety.
And as you say, it's a buzzword.
I'm sure if you look at the Google search results or mention results, it's got a spike.
But I it's a vague, it's a vague term psychological safety.
Define it For me, it feels a little bit on the woo side or on the snowflake side.
Oh, I don't feel safe in my workplace.
Please put it in in perspective.
What does it actually mean?
Speaker 4
So I mean, you're right when you just get it at that high level, it's fairly generic.
So let's actually drill down.
As you say, if you look at it just as the top headline, it means that there's a psychological safety is a shared belief that it's safe to speak up, to ask for help, admit mistakes and raise concerns.
It's really psychological safety determines whether risks are raised early or hidden until harm occurs.
So it's actually talking about the timing in which we're either proactive or reactive.
So in veterinary terms, psychological safety means that a nurse can flag a near miss without a fear of blame.
A junior vet can ask for help before a case escalates.
A receptionist can raise concerns about client aggression early and not just put up with it.
A leader can admit uncertainty and invite input from the staff.
And so when we look at it, it means that the psychological safe teams have higher engagement by all the staff members.
These are real shared learning and good communication that should translate into fewer errors and better patient outcomes and have much stronger retention because this is the key issue, stronger retention and trust within the teams that people aren't feeling like shit.
I can't do anything here.
No one's listening.
You know, I just keep on banging my head.
So the only way to go is to exit.
Why Vets Stay in Unsafe Workplaces: A System Problem
And the whole thing is, and this is the another Miss Mythbuster vets on the whole from my experience of working with them over the last 10 to 15 years.
And this is very different from other professions and a credit to the veterinary profession.
When I speak to vets who feel that the only option is to leave, no matter how shitty the environment is, they don't want to leave because their profession, their whole ethic of why they have trained, is about looking after animals, about care and delivery.
So you're ripping out their heart by telling them to leave.
So they'll put up with probably what is the most untenable circumstances because of their training and their desire and what got them into veterinary profession in the 1st place is treatment and improvement in animal health.
And so when people are flippant and go Oh well, just leave.
It actually is the greatest insult you can actually tell a vet and that's something that I have learnt from certainly my experience.
I don't know if that's your experience, you, but I think what's really important is we want to actually make sure that it's not about being nice.
It's not about lowering standards, it's not about avoiding hating hard conversations or not having performance management.
It's about saying when people can raise issues early, it's much better than staying silent until the damage is done because that's when there is the human cost.
Speaker 1
Just a very brief interruption to update you on what's happening in the land of the vet vault.
We're talking about psychological safety.
And I can tell you one of the most psychologically safe places you can spend your time is at one of our vets on to a conferences.
Physically safe, can't guarantee that, but definitely some of the most fun you can have while learning how to be a bit of it.
So a big event that is coming up is Vets on Tour in August in Waniga, New Zealand, one of our snow conferences.
Everything is in place.
We are all locked and loaded with our speakers and we have a special offer for our new grads.
So if you are a recent or new grad, so that's a 2324 or 25 veterinary graduate.
Speaker 2
We want you to come.
Speaker 1
And join us in the snow, but we know that you might not be all that how do we say this financially stable yet?
So we are offering you your conference ticket at a 50% discount.
That means the conference will cost you about $950 and we have an accommodation deal where we can give you a very comfy bed and a roof of your head for about 1500 Australian dollars for the entire week.
If you're interested, give us a shout at info@thevetvault.com and I'll share all the necessary discount links, dates and everything else you need to know.
Go and check out Vets on tour.com for information about this event as well as our January Snow conference in Italy in the Dollar Mites.
And our big one for next year, the African trip with Professor Jill Madison and Professor Dave Church and Goro, Goro, Crater, Serengeti, all the big names, all the big 5.
It's going to be epic.
I'd love to see you there.
OK, back to Rhonda.
Speaker 3
There's what we're talking about include other factors like the psychological risks.
So again, workload, work hours, emotional load in your workplace, all those sort of things.
Speaker 4
So it's how can the system make that better?
And we're all part of that system and it's taking it away from just being, if you're like a well-being problem into a systems problem.
So I'm not saying, oh, Hubert, you've got XY and Z happening in your personal life.
And then there's these things happening in the workplace.
And so therefore I'm talking around Huberts well-being of how he's coping.
That's not what this is about.
This is actually saying what is the system doing to actually engage you, to give you the right environment for your professional delivery versus if you like, undermining it.
And I need to be clear to Hubert, that does not mean that it's abdicating individuals responsibility.
We've all got that, yeah.
We're not just dumping it onto the system and saying, hey, it's your job to fix every single thing happening in my work life and in my home life, that's not the case.
So I never want people to come away from listening to this and thinking that's what I'm saying.
It's saying how do we jointly get it right and get it better?
And it's really saying the system's got a responsibility to do that.
And it's not a tick and flick thing.
It's actually really putting in some changes and this is where the regulator has got involved in really posing some important questions around that change and around the measures of change.
Speaker 3
Yeah, I've said this on the podcast a few times, but I have this mental image and I have had for a while and it's a bit extreme, but I think it illustrates that the shift that needs to happen.
And that is now happening.
If you think back to the First World War and the trench warfare and the horrible situation where they just sent the soldiers over the top to run into machine gunfire and they just get mowed down.
And the old approach of individual responsibility or individual Wellness is, well, let's talk to those soldiers and get them better training and make sure they fit and make sure they're well rested and everything else.
And then we still send them into machine gunfire.
And none of that's going to make any fucking difference versus looking, well, maybe we should stop just sending them into machine gunfire.
Maybe we should actually change the it's.
Speaker 4
Actually a really good image because at what point do we stop eating aid?
You're quite right, but I think you know, the point there is what we're trying to do is circumvent that and say, yes, we need to give people tools and skills in the trenches, but we also need to stop just doing the same old.
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.
And I was going to add, I've never had this bit, but you what you just said that it is still an individual responsibility in my scenario, if you then changed the way that the battle is fought, but then the soldiers get fat and unfit and show up to the battle drunk and that's also not going to work.
So there is a little bit of both.
Speaker 4
Exactly, exactly.
Because, you know, I hear leaders say often they go, well, no matter what I do, it isn't going to change it.
And you know, that's a real sense of helplessness and hopelessness.
They feel like they've tried everything, but it is two way.
And I think we've need to remember that.
Comparing Vet Burnout to Other High-Stress Professions
And I think that's a nice segue into, you know, what is that human cost of burnout and mental health.
And I think let's call it for what it is because it is out there as statistics.
And we need to say that, you know, at the moment the veterinary industry has the highest suicide rate.
It's got high rates of depression, anxiety and burnout.
Some really clear stats.
In Australia at the moment, 30 to 40% of vets report high burnout.
Up to 70% of the nurses and technicians are reporting their burnouts.
Symptoms and one in three veterinary professionals are saying that they've never considered until now about leaving the profession.
And I think I'm not wanting to labour on it, Hubert.
But the stats are telling us something.
If we keep on ignoring them, then we're actually not fundamentally responsible for what we can all do to contribute to the change.
And so then let's look at what's driving that.
Well, it's known that it's about the workload at times inadequate support at times around the leadership capability and very much around just how, if I could call it this, the normalising of distress and the culture of, well, you can just cope, you know, like toughen up.
It'll just stay as it is.
You're the problem, not the system.
And I think when I hear that, and I hear it often, that blame game is unhelpful.
That's like he said, she said, it's you, but that can't fit.
It's the organization that can't fit.
I think if we change the dialogue here and say we can all help to improve it in whatever way, you know, and some people go, look, I haven't got any influence, I haven't got any power, I've got no authority.
But I'm going to actually challenge that and say at some level, however small, we can all actually contribute.
It can be as small as the way I talk to another staff member.
It can be as small as the way in which I ask a question.
It can be small as my tone.
All of that is leading to culture.
And if we then put that on steroids and that other people are also doing that and asking the questions and supporting each other, all of a sudden you've got without any policy change, you've got a behavioural change.
And so I really want people to feel empowered that even though in a chain of command or in the org chart, they may not have a leadership role, we all have an influencing role.
Start small, make the change.
And that links into then what we're talking about from a legal perspective of the responsibility when it comes to psychological safety.
Speaker 3
When we get into the legal stuff, so I obviously because of the conversations I have, I do think about this stuff a lot and the solutions.
First question you work across different professions and you listed our exceptionally high rates of burnout and people want to leave and then the worst case scenario, the suicide thing and then we talk about the reasons excessive workload, inadequate support, poor leadership, all that stuff normalization of distress.
Is it worse in a profession run up because you, I know you work with the ambulance guys and all sorts of other industries that are also high stress situations that because the, a lot of the problems feel very baked into our profession to go, well, there's a financial model that has to be met and we have patients that need to be seen.
And somewhere in the middle it determines that, yeah, you have to do 15 to 30 minute consults, which means the things that 'cause these problems, it's baked into how the profession, except the whole industry is set up.
So it feels very hard to fix.
But basically first question, is it worse for us?
Are we justified to have these higher rates of burnout?
Or is because the other thing that gets discussed is, well, maybe we are employing the wrong people because the job is the job and if you can't cope with the job then maybe the job's not for you and we should find people who can cope with it.
Speaker 4
And it's a really good question you ask, you know, if I look at the industries that I think have a real parallel, parallel challenges here, but certainly if we look at those that have a high risk environment and are very crisis driven.
So let's take a DS in for the humans.
So if we look at the medical profession, let's take the courts and we're looking at the lawyers and the barristers who are in high pressure situations where there's domestic violence and really trying to have turn around around safety for clients.
And so you know you've got comparable cohorts that have some real similarities of the types of stress laws.
I think certainly what I'm saying and also that they attract a very high intellectual, intelligent group of people who are very driven for their need for equality, justice, ethics, all of those things and good outcomes.
That's their work ethic.
And so as a, if I look at personality styles very much an A listed person who is absolutely driven for positive and good outcomes.
So when I look at those groups and I look at their industries of what they've done to date, I think I think still the one difference I'm still seeing in the veterinary sector is that there, there's a lag time for them compared to their comparable cohorts within the human sector at the moment.
And I think that's because COVID really gave the human sector a real need to do it differently.
And if I relate it to your trenches notion, they had to say we just can't bloody well throw people over the trenches because we won't have any EDS any longer and we'll have to close and then what's the consequence for the Australian community and we'll have everyone dying of COVID.
And so they had to pivot in a crisis and really turn their modelling around.
And what they did was they moved from a health model to an Emergency Management model.
And that was their saviour.
They totally changed on how they did their rostering, how they did their support, how they did their psychological debriefing whilst there was still shit happening.
Don't let I'm not giving it a glossy coat.
Yeah, shit still went down big time.
Still people are burned out from it.
But overall, it was a pivoting time of change.
I actually see during that time it was still difficult for the veterinary profession.
But in actual fact, they had a bit of reprieve because so many vets say to me, thank Christ, we don't actually have to deal with the human beings.
They are just let we're either treating them out in the car park or only the animals are coming in and the human beings are left outside.
And so they could actually concentrate on their clinical stuff.
So I think we've got a bit of a lag time.
So that's why we're still seeing a high risk cohort within the veterinary profession.
And so I think there's real applicability and learning that we can apply of what we've seen in the medical profession across to the veterinary profession.
And the second is they've really shook up and changed how they did their psychological safety in their psychological debriefing and in actual, in fact, seeing the need of the excellent clinicians, having real leadership training and being able to equip them better with their management skills because they were relying upon all their clinical skills and they needed to do a pivot and actually say, hang on, we're asking them to do something that's never been in their training.
So let's actually give them that toolkit of their leadership and people management piece because that EQ piece, some of us do that naturally, others that's actually not in our bailiwick that you know, because we're so driven.
The outcome is what we're interested in, the outcome of the animal care.
And so to then say, hang on a moment, I've got a team here with me.
How do I bring them along with me is quite a different lens.
And we can't assume people will pick that up by default.
And so that's a long answer to a very short question.
Speaker 3
So the so the short answer is yes, it's worse.
The systems of support basically is not as evolved as it is in medical in in the other similar types of professions.
The Financial Benefits of Retaining Your Veterinary Team
I'll raise this here, but I don't expect the solution from you, but I my concern for vet practice owners is that some of it is potentially the business model, but maybe I'm wrong.
But I do feel, or am I right in saying in the, it's in the human medical world or the EDS, there they go, OK, we need to change this, throw more money at it.
That's tax money because all the things that you discussed take more time, money, training.
If we need to alleviate some of the stressors on veterinarians or veterinary teams no longer consult, not less workload, more time off, that sort of stuff for the vetting profession because it is a private profit driven business.
There's a friction point there and either we need to charge more or payless.
It's I feel like there's friction there that we don't necessarily have a solution.
Am I right in saying that or is it not as easy?
Speaker 4
No, no, I'm going to blow you out on the border.
Speaker 3
Go.
I like it.
Speaker 4
If you know, if I've got all the private hospitals listening to this and go let's strangle that, that guy, they have similar, absolutely similar fiscal constraints as the veterinary practices and veterinary hospitals do.
So budgets tight, money's tight.
They can't just throw money at stuff.
They've got to actually say, what am I going to get from, you know, bent from a buck?
And so they need to then say, how much is it costing me when I lose a vet?
How much does it cost me to do the advertising, onboarding a veterinary professional?
And it's big money, money, you know, you're looking at when we, when I speak to veterinary practices, they would come to me and say we would be spending probably 100 to $200,000 on that alone.
And you when I say, OK, if we saved you one move and did something that was under $10,000, that's a good outcome for your money.
Investment has a exponential benefit and I think that's that return on investment, the ROI is the only way to talk because that then says it's hitting the bottom line.
But what's the measurable outcome you get?
And when you talk around how much does it cost to have a person off from a physical injury versus a psychological injury, You know the stats from work health and safety is the former is a mean amount of $14,000.
For the psychological safety, you're looking at around 65 to 85,000.
So when you're saying that's one person, then if we could save that money and put it into the training and we wouldn't even use all of that, then I feel that's a great return on from the budget perspective here, but how they can actually have some longevity of change.
So I hope that answers it.
Speaker 3
Yep, All right.
And then beyond, well, it's becoming no longer a decision.
Understanding Australia's Psychosocial Safety Laws and Enforcement
You can't just look at the budget and say, well, I'm going to choose not to do it because it's going to cost me money and I think I'm going to make more money by just whipping my team to work harder and not worry about all this woo woo, soft, soft stuff.
Now it's a law, or now there are laws around the Senate, they have to start doing it.
Can we touch on that?
We talk about the laws and how it's changed and how it affects what people have to do.
Speaker 4
Yeah.
So I think as you see, it's not now.
It used to be in the nice to have bucket, but now there is the whole thing of national harm in the psychosocial and psychological hazard laws.
And I think where things have changed in the last couple of years that every jurisdiction in Australia now is aligned with the model.
That's the work health safety regulations and codes of practice.
And you know, we can put a link up for people so they can see that.
And, and Victoria has gone further and they've introduced an OC health and safety term, Psychological Health Regulations in 2025.
And they're quite explicit.
It's very clear around what the hazards are, what the employers are needing to do and really saying that it's much more now than just doing your Eaps and policies.
And so they're looking at hazards such as culture, leadership, workload and the systems of work.
They're looking at the risks based on severity, duration, exposure.
They're looking at eliminating risks where possible or mitigating reducing them.
They're looking at what they're calling, this is new language, it's called higher order controls, which I'll talk about in a moment, which are around work design, staffing, role clarity, leadership behaviour, rostering and how escalation works of any concerns.
It's around consultation with the employees and it's around looking at these controls as they refer to them in the legal terminology.
And it's all about how they mitigate harm.
So basically what they're saying now is you can't just tick the box.
You've got to say there are these higher order controls and in in the legal terminology that actually has A5 key legal requirements.
They're now saying that psychosocial safety is now a core work health and safety inspection priority.
The second is regulators are targeting systems, not symptoms.
The third is there's a sharp increase in improvement notices and also what they're calling enforceable undertakings.
The 4th is that prosecutions are occurring, and the 5th enforcement trend is Victoria is really being the leader in what they're classifying as the explicit and enforceable psychosocial safety regime in Australia.
So what they're meaning by all of that sounds very heavy, but I think it's pretty logical and I think it's also common sense.
What they're saying is they're acting on workload, on bullying, on being able to investigate complaints.
They're looking at improving their notices of enforceable undertakings and they are signalling that the prosecutions are there.
And what that's meaning is, and what I like about this old thing is they're not just slapping fines on people or they're not just going straight to court.
What they are saying is they're giving veterinary practices the opportunity to improve on what the issues are that have been highlighted under their investigation.
And so they're not just saying, oh, well, you know, we're just going to slap a fine on you.
They have that interim piece where they are allowing a joint effect to take place and say let's work on this.
Let's say there's these improvements that are needed and here's a notice around that.
And we are giving you both the time and input from us in order to actually improve those situations.
And that could be around rosters, you know, someone saying, well, we've done our rosters this way all the time, or this has been in our workload, there's the opportunity to actually evaluate that and get other options trialled.
And so I really like that part around this enforcement.
So it's not just here's the big stick, it's actually saying we've got an opportunity here to learn and improve.
Practical Ways to Improve Workload and Leadership Support
There's a couple of things to jump out, but let's take one example of what this could look like.
I keep hearing the word workload, which is a big stressor.
I know that in every job I've ever had a chilled day versus a fully loaded day, I feel most definitely psychologically much better after a reasonable day than when I got absolutely slammed.
So what could that look like?
For example, is it as practical or as granular as, let's say I'm an old school practice, when I get maximum dollar per hour paid for my veterinarian.
So I run 10 minute consults, 15 minute consults, get through it, just get the work done.
Is it to the point where the regulator can say no, that's not on, it is too much of A workload or the other one that's very common.
You talk to a veterinary business coach and one of the golden rules is when a client calls, book it in, Don't say, oh, we're very full.
Can we see you tomorrow?
Something that there's a lot of practice that is of that is the rule that I will teach reception when the client calls and they want to be seen, find a spot, book them in.
And then the person who wears it is the veterinarian and the nurse and the reception who goes.
But that was my lunch break.
Is that to the point where they're going to say no, you, I wasn't going to find you because you're veterinarians or your nurses are run off their feet because you're just booking it in and slamming them all day?
Speaker 4
Look, it's a very good point you raised and I've heard that, and that's what veterinary practice owners say to me all the time.
You know, we've got to get our return on all our staff.
And so I appreciate the word workload is often for people very subjective.
I think what's important is we don't look at it in isolation.
We do know that research without a doubt.
You don't need a regulatory body to tell you this, that people do need breaks, but very creatively people are actually saying there's better ways to actually book the clients.
And you know, I'm seeing some very innovative stuff happening within practices.
And how they're doing it is, you know, they are very clear around what's a repeat visit versus what's a new client presentation.
And So what they're doing is they're either grouping them together or actually because of the length of the the consultation, they're actually giving some breaks by changing up the types of work that the vets are doing.
So there's some short consultations, there's some long consultations.
So it's not just all heavy going diagnosis work one after the other after the other because you're using different parts of your brain.
Once again, research shows when we actually change up the work that we're doing, that actually is its own mental and intellectual refresher.
And so people are doing that in training the reception staff to explore what the type of request is for the booking, and then being able to look at the entire roster and be able to choose the timing accordingly.
So that's one very novel way without a doubt.
You don't need a bloody regulator to tell you people need breaks.
And so I really can't condone and saying, oh shit, there's your lunch break gone.
You've got to say, yes, the lunch break might be gone at that time, but I have a responsibility as you have a responsibility for yourself, that you need a break somewhere else.
But in all of this, it's not about the workload in isolation because we all work hard.
We all have long days, and we thrive in crises.
Psychologists, we love it.
Give us a crisis.
It's, you know, it's our feeder, same as bits, but what you need to do is what you build as the psychological safety around that, what you're doing for being able for people to talk about it.
So what we call in our language the debriefing, the psychological debriefing, and that can be just as people are packing up, doesn't have to be a stand and talk.
It actually is whilst you're cleaning up or after a theatre or whatever it might be, but it is around being being able to release what's happened during that shift.
And that's a critical part.
And it is about time out from their practice, out of their work that they are actually not just vegging.
They're doing something that's really stimulating for them that is totally non veterinarian.
And so they mix with non vets, they mix with others and they're doing something that is really enjoyable for them.
And I think we've got to look at it not in a linear way of we're just going to highlight workload or we're just going to highlight this.
We need to see what are all the components leading to people to say I've had enough.
Could I just say in all the work that I do in the veterinary industry, the workload is actually, whilst it is the first presenting issue, when you unpack it, the real issue is they actually don't feel they're being heard when they put their hand up and say I'm actually not doing well.
And that for me, where I would see we really need to be focusing on is when we talk about the system, we're really needing to look at that management and the leadership part of it because that for me is the deal breaker.
That's the one that can make this really work well.
Speaker 3
What would that look like if done well?
Speaker 4
I think we would get it away from the language that I hear virtually every day from Vits, the commentary that they are told you need to be more resilient.
That's the job.
If you can't cope, maybe this career isn't for you.
It's usually with a lot of expletives, but that's actually what people are told.
And, you know, let's just say, but if you were told that repeatedly in your shifts, you feel pretty crap, after a while you'd start to feel like, well, maybe I'm a failure.
And as you well know, if you talk to vets, they're their own worst enemy when they talk about their own capability.
And So what you're doing is you're adding fuel to the fire.
Speaker 3
It's often not explicitly said.
It'll be a brave boss these days to say that after I turn employ.
I don't know if that still happens, but it's said I've.
Speaker 2
Got to tell.
Speaker 4
You sorry, it is still it's still happening.
Speaker 3
Oh, really?
Because it's said behind closed doors, you get a bunch of practice owners together and then they'll say it to each other and they'll talk about, oh, these millennials or the next generation, and we need to wrap them in cotton wool.
And we can't say anything to them.
And but you say it's still actually still bosses are saying to their employees to their face, toughen up, Princess, that this is the job.
Speaker 4
Yeah, that's right.
So, you know, the way it might happen is firstly throwing the saline bag across the room, smashing it against the wall.
And so the behaviour is just saying, you know, shit, you're not doing a good job here.
And then it's that behaviour then turns into the language that is saying, you know, is either explicit or inferred, but everything about it is saying I am unhappy with you.
Creating Pathways for Positive Workplace Change and Accountability
And I want to say, and This is why this is a good news story.
So I want to flip it now because, you know, we're banged on about what's what's not going well.
But what I really like about all of this is it's giving pathways for change and it's giving licence from a regulatory perspective that this is a combined accountability and responsibility.
It's shared.
So let's actually get this going through our language, through looking at our risks, our responsibilities and our accountability.
And so from our perspective, from Barrington's perspective, we're not just sitting there going.
We'll just keep on picking up the pieces.
We're saying, OK, how can we all be at the front end?
And that's where, with the help of the veterinary world and as you know, Hubert, we had your assistance in really trialling and piloting the program that we put together.
Typically to address this is the veterinary ECM, the, you know, looking at essential consequence management.
And it's really giving staff the way that they can in a structured, respectful way to escalate issues and be heard, to reduce the stigma around seeking help and to really get it that it's a shared responsibility.
So we're not just pointing the finger at employers.
We're not just pointing the finger at the staff.
And we're saying, let's be at the front end.
Let's actually look at how we can preventative, how we get really good leadership behaviour and how we document things and have them reviewed so that we're seeing, you know, it's really then allowing people to say we can actually make a change together and improve our environment.
And I think, I think the key message I want to say out of all of this is doing nothing is actually now our highest risk option.
Speaker 3
So take away for me is for practice owners and leadership teams is we've all known for some time that something has to change systematically to create better workplaces beyond the fact that it's the right thing to do.
Now there's in Australia, there's a legal images to do it and don't complain about it because the outcomes are going to be good, actually good for your business, good for your team and good for the profession as a whole.
You're probably going to need some help.
It is complicated and as you say, most many of us are not born with the best EQ Don't stress about it.
Just go through the process, do the job and be better.
And from a legal perspective, the expectation right now is not perfection.
It is just show me that you're working on this and if but then there is so this carrot and stick.
The stick is But if we find in the long run that you are really just ignoring this and you are a psychologically a harmful place to work in, then there are real consequences.
Then you're going to pay.
When I googled it the other day, some of them are pretty scared you're going to be out of pocket with a fair amount of money.
I asked HPT to find me some examples of what has actually happened. 2023 Court Services Victoria fined $379,000 for toxic workplace culture.
That's significant.
That's going to stink.
Speaker 4
Yeah.
And I think what's really important is, you know, a couple of things on that, that's if you like when the regulator has to come in and then look at those fines, you know, there's a long way between now and that happening.
And so my message to everyone is, you know, jump in now, don't be waiting for that to happen because Gee, that 300 + 1000 could have gone a long way in a much better outcome if that had been put into training, into assistance for the leaders to have real tools of how to do this.
And I think the important thing I want to say, and all of that is I want people to know, and certainly employers, that the whole thing of being able to have real decent conversations and direct conversations around performance are still critical and are not off the table.
You don't have to water them down.
That's still very important, but it's what you're then doing to set the person up for success in being able to improve.
That's the thing.
And of course, as the normal bell curve is, there are going to be some that are suitable and some that aren't.
That's a given that the profession is no different from any other profession.
So I don't want, you know, behind the closed doors of just saying, oh, you're going to keep everyone now we've got to keep all the Deadwood.
You know, that's not what this is all about.
It's about fine tuning it, but being creative and changing up the ways in which people are refreshed on the job every day.
And that's why the vet ECM is about.
They've got two programs, one for owners and for leaders that come together and share actually what are the different ideas that they've got and they see are working.
And we've also got a second prong to our VTCM and that is for upcoming leaders, newbies on the block who are taking on supervisory roles, very good clinicians, but still looking at that human factors part.
And we've got a program that's actually addressing and giving them the tools for that.
So, you know, we're sitting here saying we are helping in this to equip businesses for success.
Speaker 3
But a touch on the teams as well because we said in the beginning there is still a responsibility.
It's not a concerned that employed team members are listening to this going yes, finally I'm going to get my revenge on that asshole.
I'm going to take them to they're going to get a huge fine.
But it does mean that, OK, well, if the whole workplace changes to be psychologically safe workplace, that does mean that individuals have to be a part of that and behave in certain ways.
And you can't, you know, the, it's not always just the boss who throws the bag of Sailor.
So in terms of training, when somebody does something like the ECM, will it mean that the leadership team's training will then equip them to train the team and bring them along, invite them into this process and work with them as well so that everybody's on board?
Speaker 4
Yes, in short answer.
So that's why we've got the two prongs, the upcoming leaders that really is getting into what you're talking about of how the training for the teams.
So we would be training those people and they in turn will be able to upskill and train those who they're supervising or who's in their roster or teams.
So yes, there is that opportunity that it's a really good agreement on the skills, the training and the practical side.
That's a really important thing.
This is not about theory.
This is around practical tools.
People go away with, they use it for themselves and they can then train others to use it as well.
So it's got a great knock on effect within the practices and within the hospitals and in in Lancet.
Final Myths, Takeaways, and a Call to Action
Your commented a little while ago, Hugh, when you had a bit of a joke and said, oh, now it's, you know, employees saying, oh, he's my revenge.
We all know there's some people that don't like their performance reviews and therefore, you know, let's call it the elephants in the room that they then try and call it as bullying.
And we know that's never going to cut the mustard.
And I want employers to know you still need to do your performance reviews and be honest, truthful and keep the standards high and do not then say, oh shit, I'm worried that I'm going to get a bullying claim because even if it does get a leg, it's going to be wiped out because anything that follows due practice, following a clear protocol of a performance review with being able to give, what's the solutions?
How are we supporting you on those solutions that will always stand up in a court of law as fair and reasonable.
So I don't want people to be scared that every time they have a performance review, they're going to get a bullying claim thrown at them because that's every time I hear that from a vet owner, I want to take that fear out of it because otherwise what happens is that clouds the value of these new laws.
And so I just want to do, that's my final myth Buster.
Speaker 3
OK, so this is a it is a good thing.
It is the driver that we needed to do the things that we should have done all along anyway in our profession to make it a better workplace and for people to thrive in our profession, which is our goal.
On The Red Valve, thank you so much for spending time with us again and for clarifying these things.
These are such important conversations.
And again, as I said in the beginning, I like that it's now taking action and not just talking about it.
Speaker 1
Before you disappear, I wanted to tell you about my weekly newsletter.
I speak to so many interesting people and learn so many new things while making the clinical podcast, so I thought I'd create a little summary each week of the stuff that stood out for me.
Speaker 3
We call it the Vet Vault 321, and it consists of three clinical pills.
These are three things that I've taken away from making the clinical podcast episodes, my light bulb moments.
Two other things.
These could be quotes, links, movies.
Speaker 1
Books, a podcast highlight, maybe even from my own podcast, anything that I've come across outside of clinical vetting that I think that you might find interesting.
Speaker 4
And then one thing to think about, which is usually something that I'm pondering this week and that I'd like you.
Speaker 1
To ponder with me.
Speaker 4
If you'd like to get these in your inbox each week, then follow the newsletter link in the show description wherever you're listening.
It's free and I'd like to think it's useful.
OK, we'll see you next time.
Rhonda Andrews