March 18, 2026

156: Is Practice Ownership The Only Way To Build Wealth? The Vet’s Guide To Student Debt, Saving, And Financial Sanity. With Eric Miller

156: Is Practice Ownership The Only Way To Build Wealth? The Vet’s Guide To Student Debt, Saving, And Financial Sanity. With Eric Miller
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Season 1

Ever check your payslip… your student debt… your mortgage… and wonder if you’re just treading water?

You’re not alone, and you’re not stuck.

In this episode we revisit one of the most neglected topics in the profession: money.

Hubert sits down with US-based financial adviser Eric Miller to break down the decisions that can actually move the money-needle for employed vets: from budgeting and debt to investing, insurance, and increasing your income. (We do global principles with US specifics)

No jargon. No guilt. Just a clear starting point for vets who know they should have a plan… but haven’t begun yet.

Here’s what you’ll learn:

  • Why practice ownership isn’t the only route to financial security
  • The one habit that underpins every solid financial plan
  • A simple 70/20/10 framework for spending, investing, and enjoying your money
  • How to handle student debt without letting it control your life
  • Whether to prioritise debt repayment, investing- or both
  • The difference between good debt and bad debt (and why it matters)
  • How automation quietly builds wealth in the background
  • What young vets need to know about insurance, income growth, and lifestyle creep

And perhaps most importantly:

A more grounded, reassuring view of the profession itself.

Yes, financial pressure is real.
But Eric will convince you that veterinary medicine is still a strong, high-potential career - IF you do it right.


⁠⁠thevetvault.com⁠ for show notes, access to our clinical continuing education content and to sign up for our weekly 'best of the Vet Vault' newsletter, or join us in person at one of our phenomenal Vets On Tour conferences.

Topics and Time Stamps

04:24 Biggest Financial Mistakes

05:42 Budgeting & The 70/20/10 Rule

14:41 Retirement Planning & 401k

24:09 Student Debt & How to Tackle It

26:22 Loan Forgiveness

28:58 Pay Off Debt vs. Invest

31:53 The Debt Snowball Method (it's a good thing!)

33:55 Increasing Your Income

37:44 Constructive vs. Destructive Debt

41:35 Insurance & Health Coverage

44:06 Looking Ahead: The Veterinary Industry

49:45 One Financial Habit for Ne w Grads

How Vets Can Build a Financial Plan Without Owning a Practice

It is 100% possible for a non-practice owner to become financially successful and achieve "financial freedom". While owning a practice can accelerate the process, associate veterinarians can reach the same destination by mastering how to acquire, control, and expand their money.
To build a solid financial plan as an employed veterinarian, the sources suggest the following strategies:

1. Implement the 70/20/10 Rule

The primary mistake many people make is not knowing where their money is going before it even arrives. To combat this, you should adopt a clear allocation strategy:
  • 70% for Lifestyle: This covers your necessities, such as mortgages, car payments, and food.
  • 20% for Future Investments: This portion should be set aside for long-term growth and savings.
  • 10% for "Fun Money": It is important to have a balance; hoarding money can be just as detrimental as overspending, so allocate funds for enjoyment.

2. Strategic Debt Management

Rather than waiting for loan forgiveness, which is not guaranteed, successful vets "attack" their debt to get it under control early.
  • The Snowball Method: Pay off your smallest debt balances first (like credit cards) to build momentum, then roll those payments into larger debts like car loans and eventually student loans.
  • Constructive vs. Destructive Debt: Focus on eliminating destructive debt (credit cards, luxury car payments) while recognizing that some debt, like student loans for a valuable skill, can be seen as a "constructive" investment in yourself.

3. Increase Your Earning Potential

As an associate, your salary is often linked to your production. You can increase your income without owning the practice by:
  • Improving Clinical Efficiency: Becoming a faster, more competent producer allows you to earn more through production bonuses.
  • Solving Practice Problems: Identify inefficiencies in your clinic—such as staff productivity or system errors—and negotiate a percentage of the savings or extra profit you generate for the owner.

4. Automate Savings and Retirement

To ensure you don't spend what you should be saving, you must systematise and automate your finances.
  • Remove Money Early: Use tools like a 401k (US) or Superannuation (Australia) where money is physically removed from your paycheck before you can spend it.
  • Tax Considerations (US Specific): Consider Roth contributions to your 401k. By paying tax on the "seed" (your current income) rather than the "harvest" (your future withdrawals), you protect yourself against likely future tax increases.

5. Essential Risk Protection

A financial plan is incomplete without a safety net for "cataclysmic" events.
  • Health and Disability Insurance: These are priorities to prevent a medical stay or an accident from costing you hundreds of thousands of dollars and ruining your financial progress.
Ultimately, financial planning for a vet is both a science (the numbers and rules) and an art (understanding the emotional peace that comes from being debt-free). By automating your savings and debt reduction, you can focus on being a top-notch veterinarian and "live the hell out of your life".

Retirement Planning for US Veterinarians: 401(k), Roth and Long-Term Thinking

For US-based veterinarians, retirement planning is less about picking the perfect stock and more about systematising habits and understanding the tax implications of different financial vehicles. Achieving financial freedom is entirely possible for associate veterinarians, provided they implement a structured plan early in their careers.

The 401(k) and the Power of Automation

In the United States, the 401(k) serves as a primary "forced savings" vehicle. Its effectiveness lies in the "law of money" that suggests if you physically remove money from a paycheck before it reaches a checking account, you are far less likely to spend it.
  • Employer Matching: Many US employers will match contributions up to approximately 3%, although some veterinary practices may offer smaller matches or none at all.
  • Withdrawal Rules: These funds are generally inaccessible without penalty until age 59.5.
  • Systematisation: The most successful approach is to automate these contributions so that savings occur without requiring monthly discipline.

Balancing Debt and Investing

Young vets often struggle with whether to "smash" student debt or invest. The recommended approach is to do both simultaneously using a gradient scale.
  • Habit over Returns: Establishing the habit of saving is initially more important than the actual investment returns. A 30% return on a $400 account is less meaningful than consistently contributing $40,000 to $50,000 a year as a high-producing associate.
  • Strategic Debt Reduction: Use the "Snowball Method"—paying off the smallest debts first to build momentum—while maintaining automated investment contributions.

We love to hear from you. If you have a question for us or you’d like to give us some feedback please get in touch via our contact or catch up with us on ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠.

And if you like what you hear, please share the love by clicking on the share button wherever you’re listening and sending a link to someone who you think should hear this.

Addressing Vet Financial Frustrations and the Path to Sanity
Do you have a look at your pay slip, at your student debt and your mortgage?
And you think to yourself, I'm really just treading water here for a long time.
If you ask the vet what the worst thing is about being a vet, the answer would be the pay, right?
The good news is that our profession is growing up when it comes to money.
These days, you can actually earn a salary that you are not totally embarrassed about when you talk to your friends or dentists or I don't know, maybe plumbers actually don't talk to your plumber about your veterinary salary.
That's still a bit embarrassing.
So if the profession is growing up, then maybe it's time for you as an individual to start adulting and get your financial share together with a plan.
This episode is going to help you start that process.
I'm Hubert Thiemstra and you are listening to The Vet Vault.
We we try and stop smart vets who can do clever medicine from making stupid life choices.
Now this is not the first time we're talking dirty here on the Wet World.
Money being The Dirty word here in Wetland.
Back in episode 84 we had Aussie financial advice legend Noel Whitaker on the show to talk money to us, which interestingly is still one of our most listened to episodes.
So maybe our clients are right, we do care about the money.
That one had a decidedly Australian flavor to it and that was also four years ago and a lot has happened since.
So we thought it's time for another financial health check and this time we are not neglecting our friends in the US.
Joining us for our Money 2.0 conversation is Eric Miller, who is a US based financial advisor who typically works with practice owners.
For this episode, I pulled them back into the financial life of the Employed event to talk about the stuff that actually keeps all of us up at night like student loans, lifestyle creep, retirement insurance, and to answer common questions like whether you should be smashing your debt or investing your money and where the practice ownership is the only path to real financial success.
Eric and I took broad principles, but with American specifics.
I personally took a lot from this one because, like you, for me, money lives in that weird category of being both incredibly important and very easy to ignore.
We'll spend hours learning about the latest clinical updates when it comes to our own finances.
We just hope that it will somehow work itself out.
It won't.
You're going to need a plan, so let's get planning.
Speaker 2
Eric Miller, thank you so much for joining us on The Vet Vault to talk a little bit of money.
Speaker 3
My pleasure, I can't wait.
Speaker 2
Personal finance.
So Eric, you mostly speak to practice owners, right?
Or a large part of your work is the helping practice owners sort out their finance.
But we want to focus on the personal side today.
And I want to start with the question that I had recently.
I had been thinking about it a lot.
I saw a post on a veterinary social Media Group, a vet 10 years out, not an owner, and very frustrated post that said I'm so frustrated I'm 10 years out.
I feel like I'm stuck at a ceiling.
Is owning a practice the only way as a vet to become financially successful?
And I want to ask you that question, is it possible for a non practice owner to actually get a owner house in Mexico?
Where you at at the moment?
Speaker 3
I don't know about that, but it is 100 percent, 100% within your control, be able to be financially solvent, to be able to, you know, live a debt free lifestyle, have multiple income sources.
And I guess what people would generally define as financially free, it's 100% possible to do that as an associate veterinarian, as a non practice owner.
I would say that being a practice owner will help accelerate that process.
But I think either path, there is a route to be able to to get to the final destination.
There's no question about that.
Speaker 2
Cool.
We're going to get into the nitty gritty and I'd love to ask you about the financial vehicles and all the debt that they have in the US, but I want to start with this.
Avoiding Common Financial Mistakes with the 70/20/10 Rule
Have you got and when you work with veterinarians and their finances, I suppose humans in general, but whether there's a vet specific thing, a couple of financial mistakes that you see over and over, maybe two or three if you have them, like what do we keep bumping our heads against that stops us from getting to that final destination?
Speaker 3
Yeah, I'll tell you the, and I've, I've studied this long and hard and I've tried to like call down like what I've seen over the last 15 or 16 years and working with veterinarians and just people in general.
And I think the, and this is not just specific to veterinarians, but I think the, the primary problem most people have when it comes to money is that they don't know where their money is going to go before it comes in.
And what I mean by that is the people that know where a dollar is going, should be allocated before it comes in, have a much greater chance for success.
They have a much greater chance because they know where their money is going to go.
They know where it's going to be allocated.
What most people do is they wait until the money actually comes into their checking accounts.
They get their paycheck and then like, oh, I have this money to spend.
And then the laws of money takeover where they spend everything that they make and then some.
I think if I could teach everyone one thing is that I want you guys to really know where your money's going to go before it comes in.
And I think that would that would alleviate a lot of financial pains down the road. 100% for sure.
Speaker 2
So, so when you say that, do you mean budget, do we need to budget?
Basically we have to know my financial responsibilities for the next month are going to be this.
Speaker 3
You could say that too, but it also forces in what I would call the like, what kind of life do you want to have?
What's the necessity level?
And you know you have a choice when it comes to money.
When it comes in, you can spend it all on consumption and whatever your lifestyle expenses are, or you can make like a conscious choice.
So you know what, I know that I would like to live a life of financial peace.
I'd like to have less stress in life.
And that means that not every dollar that I make can go to consumption.
Some of it has to go to future investments, some of it has to go to saving, some of it has to go towards things that are going to allow me to be better financially, either improving my skill set or starting another business or investing in something.
You know, money needs to multiply and you need to be able to expand your money.
That's one of the key skills that they never teach in school.
I think there's three big skills that they don't teach in school #1 you got to know how to acquire it #2 you have to know how to control it.
And the third is you have to know how to expand it.
And unfortunately, most veterinarians were never taught those three.
They certainly weren't taught those in medical school.
Yet.
We live on a on an economic planet.
We live on a financial planet.
And you have to know what those skills are, and you have to be good at it.
Speaker 1
So back to.
Speaker 2
Knowing where it is going to go before it comes in make that bank for me.
What does it look like?
Speaker 3
Yeah, I would say this.
So when I'm quote UN quote doing a budget for a veterinarian, I first start with, OK, we both agree that you can't spend more than what you make, right?
And you know, we have to start there because if we can't start there, I can't really help anybody.
But I would say that by and large, for most people, 70% of the money that you bring in should go to can go to your lifestyle, OK?
So 65 to 70% should go to your lifestyle, whatever that is, your mortgages, your car payments, your food budgets, whatever that is.
The rest would need to be then spread between either personal savings or future investments.
So most people should be saving 25 to 30% of what they bring home if you want to get ahead, if you really want to get ahead.
Now look, it's hard to do.
You got inflation, you have demands, you got kids, you got healthcare, you have transportation, you have all these things.
And that's the part where I'm like, OK, well, is there a possibility that you can produce more?
And I think by and large, most veterinarians do have the opportunity to produce more money, whether they're associates or whether they're owners as well.
But that's the breakdown I think of if you can do that, if you can stop, we'll just call it the 70, 2010 rule. 70% goes to lifestyle, 20% goes to future investments, 10% maybe goes to like fun money or discretionary income.
If you can do that and start there, then I think you you have the ability to get ahead.
Speaker 2
I like that it's 10% fun money.
I think a lot of people are like, oh, it's the other way around for me.
I'm like 70% fun.
Speaker 3
Exactly.
Now you have to have fun.
I've met people on both sides of the spectrum of people that just spend money, you know, just it that comes in their hands and it's gone the next day.
And then I've met people that just hoard on to money and they just never let it go.
And I don't know who's worse.
I actually think the people that hoard the money are worse.
They really are.
Because it should be a tool for fun.
It should be a tool for enjoyment.
It should be a tool for all those things, so there has to be a balance there.
You can't save your way into success in anything and you have to be able to enjoy yourself.
I'm a big believer in that 100%.
Speaker 1
Quick two-minute update on what's happening in the Will of the Vet Vault, and then we will get straight back to Eric.
So after listening to this, you're going to start saving enough money to occasionally spend it on something awesome.
In my opinion, and in the opinions of our attendees, one of the best ways you can spend money as an investment in yourself that is also a heap of fun is by coming to one of our Vets on Tour conferences.
Maybe more than one.
We just got back from our Japan ski trip and it was epic.
Here's a snippet from one of our reviewers, read to you by AI.
Speaker 2
Vets on Tour truly lives up to the hype.
I finally had the chance to join one of their tours, and while it is not your typical conference, it will likely be the best professional event you'll ever attend.
Speaker 1
It's definitely not your typical conference.
If you want to go to some city somewhere and spend all day in a dark lecture theatre and try to attend 8 lectures a day but then you run out of steam so you skip half the day to go have a nap and then you get drunk that night and miss the entire next day, go for it.
Or join us somewhere amazing.
Learn from some of the best specialists in the world in an intimate environment for about two hours over breakfast.
Then head out for the day and do something that gives you joy.
Come back, spend another two hours before dinner for some more learning, and then go hang out with a great bunch of humans.
Most of our attendees tell us that 4 hours a day is the sweet spot.
About as much new information as your brain can take in in a day.
We are off to New Zealand again in August for another snow and hiking adventure in Wanaka, possibly one of the most beautiful places I've ever been to, with three of the best speakers you could hope for in surgery, ECC and feline medicine.
Go and check out the full program at Vets on Twitter.com to see who our celebrity level speakers are.
And while you're there, you can also drool over our January 2027 conference in the Dolomites in Italy.
Take your pick.
Or better yet, come to both and watch the space for our Africa Safari conference later next year.
That's all at Vets on tour.com.
OK, let's get back to Eric to teach us how we're going to save enough money so that you can come to every Vets on Tour conference.
Speaker 2
We, my wife and I, specifically my wife, she doesn't listen to this.
So I can say what I want is more towards the hoarder, but I think for us it's usually just because of a lack of a clear plan because we don't know exactly what's coming in and where it's going.
So then it's that feeling of uncertainty of going well, like I should, I know I should save and I've got a bunch of money going to the mortgage and you're going to knock out the mortgage as fast as possible.
So it's this constant feeling of should I go buy coffee or probably should better in the mortgage that that stuff.
So it's more of a lack of a plan for a lot of people, I think.
Speaker 3
Well, you're definitely not going to get yourself rich by saving on latte.
So I would say get the coffee as many times as you want to and you can add whatever else you want to on top of that.
But there's a happy balance.
And I think for spouses too, because you know, a lot of people, especially in this country, I mean, the divorce rate's pretty high.
I don't know what it's like there, but but most people fight about money and it's just because just like he said, there's, there's not a, they're not on the same page.
And that's, that's a big thing that I think people need to do.
If if you want to have some success with money, you have to be on the same page with your spouse.
Speaker 2
Any good tools or tips or even technology or anything to make that allocating that 25 to 30% easier or more practical or just kind of automated that you recommend or that you like using?
Speaker 3
I'm definitely a big believer in like in our country, in our country, I don't know if you guys have like a like a retirement savings plan.
We have like what's called a four O 1K plan in America and I'm sure you have something similar type of retirement savings.
So the reason those work is there's a a law of money that says that if you physically remove money from someone's paycheck, they will not spend it.
OK.
And the only reason, the only way that you're going to have point of court retirement savings is you have to physically remove it from where they usually spend it from.
And you don't necessarily have to put all your money in retirement plans.
But the the action of getting money in motion of keeping it in places and making sure that you assign a purpose like I'm going to start this account.
This account has a purpose.
This purpose is for blank, whatever that is, whether it's for fun money, whether it's for future investments.
And if you can automate that as much as possible, you just increase the probability that you're going to be able to keep money.
And you have to have discipline for sure.
You have to have discipline not to touch it because there is like, oh wow, I have $10,000 in that account and I sure would like to spend that.
But if there's discipline and a plan around that, then more chances than not that you're not going to dip into that.
But definitely keeping it as automated as possible I think is a successful option.
Speaker 2
So let's talk about that sort of investing or let's say retirement planning.
Navigating 401k, Roth, and Smart Investment Strategies
It's always a, for most people a boring thing to talk about.
But as you say, probably very, very important.
So in Australia we have something called superannuation, which is the same thing.
It's a retirement fund, and here it's.
Speaker 1
Actually a legal.
Speaker 2
Requirement.
As soon as I'm employed permanently, I have to have a super fund.
It's part of my, my start, my new job and my employer has to pay, I want to say 12% on top of my salary.
So as an employee, you are legally obliged to pay somebody super.
So there's some forced retirement saving in Australia, which is actually pretty cool.
And we can't touch that until you 65 or 60 or something like that.
Actually, during COVID, they made an exception.
They said you could take a certain amount of money out once, but in theory you can't touch it unless you're dying before 65, then you can.
Then there's OK, you have your money.
I've heard of four O 1K.
Is that different in the states?
Like that's a voluntary thing.
You have to decide to set it up.
Speaker 3
It's very similar.
It's a kind of a forced savings plan.
There's penalties if you draw out the money prior to.
In America, it's 59 1/2.
And by and large, I say that they're probably going to increase all of those things.
Of course, they have Social Security that will kick in as well.
Unfortunately, most people just vastly underestimate how much they're going to need in retirement.
They just vastly underestimate that, which is I think, another thing that we try to imprint upon people as much as we can, that you never want to underestimate how much you think you need, and unfortunately most people do.
Speaker 2
So to clarify, in the states, is there a an obligatory contribution and then you can pay extra or is it your choice how much you put in?
Speaker 3
We used to have a pension system where the employers were responsible for a lot more.
Right now, most, most employers are going to match like 3%, up to 3% of what you put in, which is much lower than what you have.
And some don't even do anything.
There's no match.
And a lot of veterinarians, most veterinary offices, they don't have matches or very small matches as well.
So it's, it's unfortunate, I wish it was different, but that's the way it is here.
Speaker 2
And I, I did a bit of a Google before this interview just to get my head around some of the challenges or questions that people will have in the states.
Are there different options?
I found some stuff about a four O 1K versus a Roth versus a traditional.
It seems confusing.
Is there confusion or do people generally know what to do?
Do we need to talk about what vehicle you should use for your retirement planning as of it?
Speaker 3
So I would say there's definitely a lot of confusion.
Our country does a terrible job of educating people when it comes to money and finances.
I would say that the simplest way to put it is this.
Now if you put a dollar in your retirement plan, what's called pre tax, basically you don't have to pay any tax on that money that you earned.
OK.
And the thought process is, is that it's OK, great.
So then when I take the money out, then it's taxed at that point in time.
But you got to think about this because do you think taxes are going to go higher or going to go lower?
Now our country has $37 trillion worth of debt and they have to get that money from somewhere.
So they're probably going to increase taxes along the way.
So I traditionally try to tell people, try to put as much as you can in what are called tax advantage vehicles, which would be a type of retirement account where you pay tax today, but you don't pay tax when you take the money out.
So do you would you rather pay tax on the seed or would you rather pay tax on the harvest?
And I would say most people would rather pay tax on the seed rather than the harvest.
And.
Speaker 2
So is that a different form of a four O 1K or what's it called?
Speaker 3
It's still a four O 1K.
It's just a type of contribution that you make.
You can make inside of your 4-O1K.
You can make what's called a pre tax contribution or a post tax contribution.
Now you'll hear the term Roth.
That's the name of the senator that came up with the legislation that allows people to put in post tax.
Speaker 2
Contribution.
So I earn my 100,000 a year and I choose to pay tax on all of that, whatever my tax rate is.
And then at my post tax money I put into my Rath 4-O1K.
And when I'm 59 1/2, when I get that money out, there's no tax again.
Then it's just pure income whatever, but OK.
Speaker 3
It's just all, it's all yours at that point in time.
And if you're a young veterinarian, even if you're like in your 40s and 50s, I would encourage people to do that more.
So just because I'm firm believer that taxes are going to be higher along the way and nobody's going to be in a lower tax bracket.
I know people tell people, well, you're going to be in a lower tax bracket.
Like, why would you would have been in a lower tax bracket?
That means that you have no money coming in.
And that's worse than paying taxes is having no money coming in.
So you know, proper planning prevents poor performance.
Speaker 2
So how much to put in roughly percentage wise?
Does it vary on your age group where you are in Korea?
Like how does somebody decide how much of my money post tax should I be putting into a retirement fund?
And especially because you can't really touch it.
I like the idea of saying I'm happy to save.
But if I send in money, I'd like to have that money.
Like why go for a four O 1K versus just a high interest savings account or something like that?
Speaker 3
Yeah, something else.
I mean, again, it's kind of a for savings plan.
It kind of forces you to be able to do that.
So I can see some virtue in that and some benefit in that.
But by and large, I don't think that should be the only vehicle that you're using to fund your retirement.
Certainly if there's additional investments outside of that, I think a lot of people in our in our country like real estate, you can invest in real estate, you can invest in other stocks and bonds and brokerage accounts and those kinds of things.
I think those are things that people typically do.
You can invest in crypto, which is becoming more and more popular, although I'm not giving you any crypto advice on this on this podcast and highly speculative, but I, I think more when it comes to investing, you just have to understand what you own, But that's all I ask of people just know what you own and why you own it.
And Warren Buffett, he probably the most famous investor, well, his mentor wrote a book that I think is a great book.
It's called the intelligent investor.
And really it comes down to this.
He goes by important, profitable companies and you will likely have success with investments.
OK.
And I think that's something that that just gets lost.
Everybody wants to kind of the the hit of the day, they want to try to hit home runs and it's like that's not the way to it.
You want to be able to just buy good, important, profitable companies and by and large I think you'll have success when you need the money.
Speaker 2
The problem for most of us who are not in the world of finance is even that can be at all ask to decide, well, who are the big important companies?
It's it takes time.
It takes time to sit and think about it.
I know myself, I, I know I should do this.
I've done podcast on finance before, but it's always low on my priority list.
So I want to make it as easy as possible for somebody.
Who guys, OK, well, I'm going to listen to Eric.
I'm going to put 20% aside.
Some of them are my retirement fund.
Is it a question of go to to an advisor and say here's my money invested or like I've heard of Efts and funds and stuff like that.
That is like what's your advice for the Investing for Dummies, which is pretty much my whole Thai audience.
I hope I don't offend anybody with that.
Speaker 3
I think by and large, number one, get the get your financial system set up first that I can't really emphasize that point enough.
It is far more important to be able to get the good habits set up, far more important than the success that you would have on the investment side.
It's just far more important.
You can have an investment that hits 2530% returns, but if there's only $400.00 in your account for it to earn, then did it make a meaningful difference?
No, it really didn't.
I think it really starts with this.
Number one, get good at what you do.
Be committed to being a top notch veterinarian and a producer, someone that really can produce and look veterinarians nowadays, I don't, I don't know what they make in Australia, but in the states salaries have went up.
I mean, I've seen people making 200,250 thou.
These are just associates right now.
So it can be done and you get paid on production which is great.
So if you produce more than you're going to make more.
So when you start looking at it like that, I make $200,000, if I'm putting 2025% away, that's 40 or 50 grand, OK, now you can do that.
You're going to make a dent.
You're going to make a difference.
And if we then add on top of that, hey, let's start accelerating your debt.
Let's get that paid off in 7 to 10 years.
All of a sudden you look back in 10-15 years, you're like, Oh my God, I got a pile of money right here.
I got cash, I got no debt.
I have options.
I can live how I want to at this point in time and I think that's all we're trying to aspire people to do is get started on something that will allow them to have that outcome at the end of the day.
Understanding Student Debt and Loan Forgiveness in the US
So let's talk about debt.
All I know about vets and finance in the US is debt, massive levels of student debt.
And I see a lot of questions about that online always how, how much should I pay off?
Let's get into that.
So you'd say somebody's earning pretty well.
I agree with you coming from Australia, I look at US salaries, I'm like, oh, that's pretty appealing. 250 thousand U.S. dollars, which is it's solid.
How does that match up with the like how much debt does the average vet have when they enter the workforce in the States?
Speaker 3
Unfortunately a lot and you know, it can be anywhere between.
I've seen someone as 100,000.
I had one person that had like $400,000 worth of debt, which was just just overwhelmingly sad until I found out how they got so much of it.
They were just using it for travel and everything like that.
I was like, I don't feel sorry for you.
But that being said, most of them I would say are going to come out with 150, two $100,000 worth of debt.
OK, great.
Number one, don't stress.
You are 20 something years old.
Let's not stress, all right, that while it may seem like a lot of money, and it is, you have an enormous amount of time to handle that.
Now in our country, there are forgiveness plans and you can do that.
I would say the most successful people that I've seen that were like in the top 1% of the money game, what they did is that they continue to live like a student for a period of time.
They just decided, you know what, I'm just going to get really good at being a veterinarian.
I'm going to get my skills really competent, I'm going to try to be a good producer and I'm going to attack this debt didn't mean they paid it all off, but they just attacked it.
OK.
They got it under control and five years from now it is just didn't seem like that much money.
I'm sick of what of how much that there is and I go back and forth on, hey, should I just wait for it to be forgiven or such?
So I don't want people to just sit back and hope that that's going to happen.
I would rather they just kind of start attacking it.
And generally speaking, when you do that, I think good things end up happening to you.
That would be my advice for a lot of people on that.
Speaker 2
Talk to me about this forgiveness plans.
How does that work?
Who gets forgiven and and how and is there like is there a downside?
Why not just get your dead forgiven?
Speaker 3
Well, I mean, is there a downside?
Part of me is like, no, you know what?
The government's made the stupid decision just to to allow banks to create money out of thin air and then they lend it to people.
But someone's got to hold the bag on all that money being created.
And it's generally going to be the taxpayers.
And it just increases the cost of everything.
So you can imagine when you start just creating more and more money and doesn't matter who gets it, it just increases the prices for everybody.
So it kind of penalizes everybody to that degree.
But it is a point of contention because I, I do go back to at least veterinarians obtained a very valuable skill for that money.
They should be probably top of the list when it comes to having that debt forgiven because they actually contribute something to society.
People that borrow $200,000 and got some crazy degree that really doesn't provide much to an economy.
They're going to get all that debt forgiven.
Then they're really not providing anything.
So I mean, we can, this is more of a philosophical political talk, but it's just that's what bums me out.
So I'd love for veterinarians to be the top that list because I know what they provide for society and and that's not going away.
I don't care how big AI gets, people are still going to want their pets to be taken care of.
Speaker 2
But your advice is don't count on it.
Just smash your dead.
Get it out of your life.
Get the monkey of your back.
Speaker 3
Let's at least get it under control.
Let's not stress about it.
Let's not let it consume our lives.
Let's at least start attacking it, get a payment plan, start seeing it go down.
And then generally speaking, something good will happen to you where you'll be able to pay that off in a much less time than you would normally do.
I just, I, I, you know, financial karma, I think is real.
Like I've seen that before.
I just seen people when they put good habits in, they just people call it luck.
Oh, he just got lucky.
I'm like, yeah, but he was probably doing some right things that invited that luck in for some reason.
May not have happened for everybody, but call me crazy, call me a nut bag, but I do think there is some financial karma out there.
I hope so man.
Speaker 2
No, but it's there's a practical aspect as well as if something is on your mind and you act on stuff, it's easier for luck to happen if you're in the room.
If you're not even in the room, it's not going to happen.
I had a good saying increase the surface area for luck to hit by doing the right things.
Speaker 3
Oh snap, that's a good one.
I'm going to remember that.
Balancing Debt Repayment and Investments with the Snowball Method
Now.
Speaker 1
Let's get a bit practical.
Speaker 2
With the debt conversation tied with already just talked about retirement savings.
So let's say I'm a young vet zero to five years out.
Let's make it.
I'm earning 150 KA year, but I have 150K of debt.
How much do I am to pay back as a percentage of my income?
And then the the next question, and that's something I always struggle with.
Do I still try and invest as well?
So you talk about savings, do I just go, let me just take all my extra money and just knock my debt and then once it's paid off, then I can start talking about some sort of retirement fund or something like that.
How do we think about this and how do we put some numbers to it for us?
Speaker 3
Yeah.
So I'm going to do that.
That's the either or game.
And then we'll get that quite a bit here.
It's like, hey, should I pay off my debt 1st and then invest or should I invest?
And I'm always of the belief that let's do both.
OK, let's start on what we call a gradient scale.
Gradient scales, you start small and then you just build up to a point where obviously you can do both.
I would prefer people to do both.
I would prefer that people are putting money towards investments and then, you know, again, look at your salary, how much you making right now making $150,000.
OK, great.
Is there any way at all that you can make 165?
Like maybe you work an extra shift, maybe you get better and faster doing surgeries.
Is there any way you can make an extra 10 or $15,000?
OK and then we're going to use that to then accelerate paying off the debt.
Now most people don't really realize that when you it doesn't take much to get debt extinguished like an extra 500 bucks a month.
Extra 300 bucks a month, you would be surprised.
Apply to a mortgage, a 30 year mortgage.
You can probably cut that mortgage with maybe an extra 3 or $400.00 a month in half in the number of years in half.
OK, So I would have the mindset of I'm going to do both.
And is there any way I can push up my income side to be able to do that?
That's typically the answer that I'm going to that I'm going to look for.
Most veterinarians are not, while they may get a fixed salary, most of them have the ability to get some kind of production bonus or Commission or something like that.
So that's where I'm like, hey, what, what can you do to to be able to do this?
And then that allows you to get both ends of the spectrum, so to speak.
Are you able to achieve both goals by investing and having your debt paid off?
Speaker 2
Sensible ratio, like how do we split that, how much is going to debt versus how much is going to to savings?
Speaker 3
I don't know if I have a percentage, so to speak.
I always look at more of like throwing 100 dollars, 200 dollars, $500 a month more towards your debt.
I've just seen that be such a accelerant to getting it paid off quickly.
Speaker 2
In addition to the minimum repayment so most debt will have easier.
Speaker 3
Minimum payment, yeah.
But I would say first and foremost the best way to do that, but we call it the snowball effect here in the States where you take the smallest debt balance that you have.
So let's take most, let's say most veterinarians.
I have $200,000 of student loan debt.
I got a car payment that's a $40,000 of debt.
I have $5000 of credit cards because I wanted to go have a huge party after I graduated and whatever.
OK, so great.
So what do we attack first?
Why don't we attack that $5000 credit card payment?
Let's get that sucker paid off as fast as we can, OK?
And let's say my minimum payments, 500 bucks a month, you know, and I'm going to add another 500 bucks to that 1000 bucks.
I'm going to have it paid off in 5 or 6 months.
Great.
So then I'm going to take that $1000 now because I'm used to paying that.
I'm used to it.
OK, I'm going to take that $1000.
I'm going to apply it to my car payment and made my car payments $400.00.
So now I'm going to be paying instead of 414 hundred towards my car payment, OK.
And it's just called a snowball because now my car payments paid off and maybe a year and a half and now I can put all that towards my student loan debt.
And like I said, you would be totally shocked how fast all that's going to go away.
And again, it just takes some planning, a forethought to get this done and then a little bit of time and discipline and then you have a great outcome.
Speaker 2
OK, All right, I.
Speaker 3
Just can't get people to do it all the time because there's always a demand for something.
Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly.
So the I well for for me personally and I'm sure your, your clients do that a lot of that you said it before, take the money away before you see it that that money has to automatically come into my bank account and go out straight into whatever I want to put it into.
Otherwise, it's.
If it's not there to spend, you can't spend it.
Speaker 3
That's right.
Just just try to systematize it, automate it, systematize however you want to say it, automate your savings, automate your debt reduction, and then live the hell out of your life and get good at your job.
Get really good at your job.
Practical Ways for Veterinarians to Increase Their Earning Potential
Yeah, the produce more thing.
Have you come across other clever ways that people produce more in Australia?
It's not that common to be paid on production.
Most of us have a wage, I'd say a majority of Australian events you've got your salary and that's it.
How do people increase the how much they produce?
Speaker 3
Well, I don't know the system as well in Australia.
I don't know what owners are like here.
Owners definitely reward people that are good employees.
Like if you're a good competent employee that shows up on time and you don't create headaches and you don't cause the toxicity in the workplace, you can go to them, say, hey, look, I'm I'm producing X amount, I'm a good employee.
Can I get a bump?
Can I get a raise?
And most people are going to look and say absolutely not all the time.
But you miss 100% of the shots that you never take.
So why not just ask?
But if you got to be a good employee first you got to be a producer, You got to be someone that an employer looks at as valuable.
But that's one way is just ask can I get a raise?
Speaker 2
I told you I wrote a series of blog posts to see me answer that question of is owning a practice only way to make money and something I wrote in there, and I've experienced that is to get a bit creative.
Even in Australia or countries where we don't get paid on production, both VET practices have there's problems that need to be solved.
And the owners norm, especially in a private non corporate practice, there's one, one or two owners and they're busy, they have their hands full and they know that there's 20 things that need to get done.
Whether that is better rustering, better systems, productivity, something that there's always things that can make the practice better.
And if you as an employed vet identify one of those things and go to the boss and say, listen, I think this could be better.
I think we can improve productivity.
I think I can save us 50,000 a year if we do this.
Can I do this for you?
And if I do it successfully, can you give me half of what we save or what we make extra or something?
I want to guarantee that any half sensible practice owner will go.
Speaker 1
Yes, please.
Please get them.
I would.
Speaker 2
Get that for me?
Speaker 3
I would 100%.
I think you're right.
I mean, look, the biggest expenses in a veterinary practice well here the the biggest expenses the staff obviously.
So are there ways that you can improve staff productivity and efficiency and get people to get their work done?
And owners don't always want to have to be the the principal, so to speak.
I mean, they don't always want to be after like God.
Can someone else do this as well besides me?
And if you demonstrate that to an owner, Oh my God, I think that they will, they'll make you an executive.
And when you're an executive and most owners would say, hey, look, if you can improve my profitability at the bottom line, I'll give you, you know, 3% of the profits at the end of the year, 5% of the profits at the end of the year.
I think it's a great way to make additional income if you can do that, if you're willing to do that and if you want to do that.
Speaker 2
Awesome.
Just back to the debt question again.
I did in preparing for this, I asked questions of a few people and there's actually a vet who's got quite a big social media account about finance.
That's her journey of saving.
And I asked her for questions that she gets and she says the most common, I'm going to read it out.
The most common questions I get asked is about taking loans out, especially with the new Big beautiful bill and most people requiring private loans in addition to FAFSA, which means nothing to me.
I don't.
I know of the Big beautiful bill, but I don't know what it means and I don't know what FAFSA is.
And she says they ask about loan repayment options and how much a monthly loan payment is actually going to be and how to factor in on top of that rent and other life expenses.
So again, it sounds like borrowing money is a big question for a lot of it.
Distinguishing Constructive Debt from Destructive Financial Obligations
Let's let's keep it simple.
There are two types of debt.
There is constructive debt and there is destructive debt, OK?
And constructive debt is going to be using debt to acquire something that is #1 going to appreciate in value, mean that whatever the item is, it's it's an asset.
It's going to go up in value #2 it's going to create cash flow.
And #3 it will give you a tax benefit.
If whatever it is that you're using debt for doesn't provide those three things right there, it is destructive debt.
And that's the only way that I would look at debt.
All right, forget all the big beautiful bill and all the payments and minimum payments and interest rates.
There's constructive and destructive.
And if it doesn't have those three properties, I would highly, highly, highly be skeptical of getting debt on your balance sheet.
And then vice versa.
Destructive debt.
I'll give you some examples of constructive debt.
Buying a practice, buying a piece of real estate, borrowing for school, right?
Because what's the asset?
I'm the asset.
What's going to create cash flow and I'm going to go up in value.
So that's the asset.
What's destructive debt?
Credit cards, car payments, homes, that's all destructive debt.
If you can stay away from some of that, at least in your early years, you'll have plenty of time to to buy all that shit.
Excuse me, all that stuff along the way.
Just don't get caught in the debt trap, so to speak.
And that's a vicious cycle that consumes too many people's income and attention units.
And that's what we try to keep away from.
So those are really the two types of debt that I would encourage people to know and understand and separate out.
Speaker 2
So don't sweat the details about the different types of loans and repayments and stuff.
That principle is don't acquire it where at all possible unless it's going to benefit your life in a meaningful way.
Speaker 3
In a meaningful way, Yeah.
I mean, think about it.
You know, debt is historically been a way to enslave people and that has never been truer than in our society right now and society as a whole.
So it's something that you can use as leverage, you can use for your advantage.
But I've also seen it ruin people and put people in the poor house.
And it's just there's a spiritual aspect to not having any debt.
Like the greatest joy that I see or the moment that people pay off their homes, like it's just crazy.
Like the the wives are just besides themselves.
They're like, Oh my God, our home is paid off.
They love it.
So there there's something to it.
So you got to be very careful with it.
And just don't get caught in the debt spiral.
Speaker 2
Yeah, I, I feel that for sure.
I think that's why I asked the question earlier about debt versus investing.
I learn more towards.
I just want to get rid of my debt for that emotional component.
Speaker 3
There's value to that it really.
Speaker 2
Is and then people say, yeah, we should be investing as well.
And like, I know, but I just want to smash my home loan.
I just want to get rid of the mortgage.
Speaker 3
And you know what, in that case, I would, I would definitely tell you, then put a little bit more toward if it's that important to you.
See, financial planning is there is a science to it, but there's an art to it as well.
And the art to me is like, what is the effect, just like the emotional effect that not having a debt would have on you would be far more valuable than whether or not I have a few more bucks in my retirement account.
Not having the debt I would think would motivate you to continue to work and work hard and do all the things that you do right because you don't have that stress of that debt anymore.
So it, it is an art and a science to some degree.
I think probably everything is to to some degree, but certainly finances is as well.
Why Health and Disability Insurance are Crucial for Veterinarians
OK, something else is really boring, but probably important.
So beyond retirement and smashing debt, insurances and again health insurance is a big deal in the states.
Here we have in Australia we have Medicare.
So there's some public safety net and it's a controversial issue in the states.
What does it look like for you guys and how do we think about it as a 25 year old neo grad and as a middle-aged veterinarian and somebody getting closer to retirement?
Speaker 3
Look, I would say that if I'm 25 years old, if they have a health plan available to me, I just want to have something that's going to cover me in case there's a cataclysmic problem.
And that's the way I would look at it.
I mean, you got, you got to take care of yourselves.
And I've, I've seen veterinarians here not take care of themselves.
Like they don't, they just don't take care of themselves.
They eat poorly, they're overweight.
I can't say it's, I'm not going to say it's an epidemic, but I, I do think that there is a bit of a problem there.
But I, I would by and large say that most of these companies do offer some kind of a health plan.
It's ridiculously expensive.
I don't know what to tell you.
I mean, this is what's changed in our society over the last 30 years is like healthcare, health expenses are becoming ridiculous.
But what's the alternative?
I mean, I'll give you an example, man, I had a heart attack like 4 years ago.
If I didn't have health insurance, it would have been $300,000 for my hospital stay.
See what I mean?
It's like you have to have something that could at least cover a catastrophic event.
I think that is a priority for everyone.
All right, I know it's a few bucks, but it's worth it to prevent like a medical state that can cost you a couple $100,000.
This ability would be another one as well.
I mean, again, I think all these things are going to be a lot cheaper the younger that you are.
But I've had some veterinarians that had an unfortunate accident or something happened to them, and now they're collecting disability and they're glad that they look.
Nobody likes to pay for insurance on anything until you absolutely need it, OK?
Same with life insurance, same with health insurance, same with car insurance.
You know, it's just one of those necessary things that I think responsible people do.
And you can try to get away with it.
You can try to like, you know, it's not going to happen to me.
But by and large, I would say it's worth the cost because if you don't have it and the event does happen, you're going to be kicking yourself is.
Positive Financial Future and Growth in the Veterinary Profession
There anything I'm not covering?
This is such good financial common sense grounding for most people.
What have we not discussed that you think needs to be covered?
Speaker 3
I think I just want people to know things are going to get harder financially, the price of things are going to go up, but that's not going away.
And how you handle money right now and the things that you do and you set up in your life right now are going to dictate the next 10 or 15 years of your life.
And you know, that to me is kind of like a mission.
That's a purpose I have.
I really want to make sure people understand like you have to be able to handle money.
You have to be able to understand it.
You don't, I don't need you to be an expert on investing or accounting or anything like that.
I just need you to make sure that you have a plan that you know where your money's going to go before it comes in and you're not spending everything that you make and then some.
And that you have some semblance of trying to control your debt and have an thematic savings plan.
If you can do that, everything's going to work out because things are going to get harder.
They just are.
I mean, we have a pretty insane political system here I don't know about over there.
And it's not getting any better.
That being said, I think that the veterinary industry as a whole is an awesome place to be for the next 10 to 15 to 20 years.
I really do.
I think it's a great industry.
It's a growing industry.
I think that it's going to be a place where people will continue to spend and invest money and if you can really demonstrate good competency, you'll never go without a job and I think that's really important.
Speaker 2
So nice to hear from, let's say from an outsider of sorts because the narrative has always been we don't get paid well, you're never going to go make money as a vet.
So to hear that actually, well, you're not in the worst place in the world because you're right.
I've personally experienced that.
I'm always very grateful when I speak to people in other professions who if they decide to move or for some reason they out of a job, it can be super stressful.
And and I as a vet, it's always like, it's not a big deal.
I'll just go get another job.
I want to move from here to there and people will go, well, what about work?
I'm like, I don't know.
I'll find work this work.
I'm a veterinarian.
It's very nice luxury to have.
Speaker 3
You could 100% come here.
I mean, if people want to come to the States and work, I got over 150 veterinary clients, they're dying, dying for help.
They need it.
We need more people in the industry.
There's not enough right now and there's going to be a whole wave of old veterinarians that are retiring right now.
And we're going to need more owners, more small private practice.
There's, I don't care what anybody said, I don't know what the corporate environment is over there as far as corporations buying practices, they're they're doing that here.
People are like all corporations are taking over.
There isn't enough corporations out there that could buy all of the veterinary practices that are in existence right now.
There's too many of them.
There's so many of them, which is great.
And if you ever had the inkling that you wanted to be an owner, follow your desire on that one.
OK, you can learn the skills to be an owner.
It's not easy, It's hard.
The payoff is amazing, especially with the value of practices nowadays, even like one or two doctor practices are going to be anywhere between 2:00 on average 2 and $10 million sales, which is an amazing amount of money.
So if you, if you had gotten the veterinarian and you're like, well, I didn't, I'm not in it for the money.
Great.
I'm glad you're not in it for the money, but the money's here and it's available.
You just you have to know what you're doing and work with people that know what they're doing as well.
Speaker 2
Which is where you come in, right?
It's the financial center.
Speaker 3
That was going to be a maybe a shameless plug right there, I guess, but I'll do it anyway.
Most of what a financial advisor does is just eliminating all that.
I don't know is like, when can I retire?
I don't know when's your debt going to be paid off?
I don't know.
Those are things that people have and we just try to eliminate as many of those as possible.
Again, how to automate their savings, how to pay off their debts, how to invest and like I said, pay off their debt faster and just again, have control over their money.
Like know where your stuff is.
Speaker 2
The uncertainties, I know for myself, these things, when you talk about it and it sounds so simple and it sounds so easy, I'm like, all right, I'm going to do this.
I'm going to stop being passive about it.
And I'll sit down and then I'll hear a stumbling block and I'm like, oh, I'm not so sure about that.
It's just a lack of.
It's a bit like if you decide you're going to Google how to treat your sick dog.
I'm learning throughout, but in many fields of life, professional help to help you make tough decisions definitely goes a hell of a long way.
Speaker 3
I try to encourage people to work within the industry, like find somebody that works with other people in your industry, you know, like we have, there's ACPA that that we work with and because he works with a lot of veterinarians and I like that and we work as financial advisors.
We work prominently with veterinarians and say because I think we know them pretty well, know their industry, know where their money comes from, and I think that there's a benefit to that.
Speaker 2
Where do people get a hold of you, Eric?
Speaker 3
They can go to our website or name of our companies, Econologics Financial Advisors.
We have plenty of assessments and tools that you can use just to get some kind of an idea of where you stand financially and then you go from there.
Eric Miller's Top Financial Habit for New Veterinary Graduates
Can we wrap up, I'm going to bring this on you wrap up with with one last questions.
If you could give, and I want to make it US specific, if you could give a new US grad.
And my typical end of episode question is if you could give new grad veterinarians of the world one little bit of advice, but we're going to narrow yours down to say one bit of One Financial habit for their first year out.
What would it be and why?
Speaker 3
I would say the, I don't know, I've probably already said it before, but sit down when you, when you first get the job and you know how much money that you're going to make, make sure that 70% of that money goes to pay for your lifestyle and then save the rest.
Start with that one right there.
And I think that's the best, that's the best habit that you can have.
Just don't fall into this.
I'm a doctor now and I deserve the BMW and I deserve the Prada bags.
Try to avoid those things.
Your life will be so much richer by not doing those things.
I know that they, they seem like they're going to make you happy.
They don't.
No one's ever been happy with a Prada bag.
Long term, have good friends, Spend money on things that are going to enrich you more.
I don't know.
I think that's more important.
Speaker 2
I often say the younger vets vet work is a hell of a lot nicer if the amount of it work you do is not determined by the amount of debt you have and with your boss is actually your boss and not the bank, and the bank makes pretty cruddy employer.
Speaker 3
Yes they do.
Speaker 2
Eric, thank you so much for taking time out of your holiday to talk to us again.
Common sense, it's such a neglected topic.
We back so much about all the little finer details of victory science and then this one thing that can actually make a significant role in your general well-being as a vet is neglected.
So I appreciate you making the time to to let people think about it a little bit smarter.
Speaker 1
Before you disappear, I wanted to tell you about my weekly newsletter.
I speak to so many interesting people and learn so many new things while making the clinical podcast.
So I thought I'd create a little summary each week of the stuff that stood out for me.
We call it the Vet Vault 321 and it consists of three clinical pearls.
These are three things that I've taken away from making the clinical podcast episodes, my light bulb moments, two other things.
These could be quotes, links, movies, books, a podcast highlight, maybe even from my own podcast.
Anything that I've come across outside of clinical vetting that I think that you might find interesting.
And then one thing to think about, which is usually something that I'm pondering this week and that I'd like you to ponder with me.
If you'd like to get these in your inbox each week, then follow the newsletter link in the show description wherever you're listening.
It's free and I'd like to think it's useful.
OK, we'll see you next time.
Eric Miller