July 22, 2025

#144: Stop Fighting Your Software: Tech Tools That Actually Help Veterinarians. With Dr Caleb Frankel

#144: Stop Fighting Your Software: Tech Tools That Actually Help Veterinarians. With Dr Caleb Frankel

In this episode of the Vet Vault, Hubert Hiemstra chats with Dr Caleb Frankel—emergency veterinarian and founder of the practice management software Instinct—about the chronic frustrations with veterinary software, and how these tech problems mirror deeper issues in veterinary practice. The conversation kicks off with the idea that small changes in infrastructure can make a significant difference to culture and performance in veterinary teams.
Caleb shares his journey from aspiring internal medicine specialist to reluctant but passionate software entrepreneur, driven by his early frustration with inefficient, outdated PIMS (Practice Information Management Systems). Hugh asks why good veterinary software is so uniquely difficult to build, and we get pro tips on how to make decisions when you're shopping for new software and how to effectively integrate new tech in your practice. Beyond PIMS, they dive into the role of tech—especially AI—in addressing bigger challenges like mental health, medical errors, and overwhelming clinical knowledge.
Practical, grounded, and forward-looking, this episode goes beyond a tech review to ask how innovation can reshape the daily reality of veterinary work and help us rediscover confidence and joy in the profession.

Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon RSS Feed podcast player icon
Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon RSS Feed podcast player icon
Season 1

You can think of a bunch of things that make your working day (and career!) as a veterinarian more frustrating than you’d like it to be, right? But have you ever considered the role of the software that you use in how frazzled you feel at the end of the day?

And beyond the pure frustration of ‘too many clicks’ and that spinning wheel of doom when you have ten other things to do - have you considered how the very software that feels like it's holding you back could actually help solve some of the systemic challenges that feel like they’re just baked into the vet profession, like low clinical confidence, medical errors, and even burnout?

In this conversation, we speak to emergency vet and tech entrepreneur ⁠Dr Caleb Frankel⁠ , founder of ⁠Instinct Science⁠, about what’s broken in vet tech, what good software should actually do, and why the future of practice might depend on getting this right.

In this episode:

  • Why building good vet software is so damn hard (and how to spot the tools worth your trust)
  • What to look for (and avoid!) when choosing new software for your clinic
  • Reducing the trauma of introducing a new tech tool to the team (yes, even the dreaded PIMS change!)
  • How software design impacts clinical confidence, patient safety, and mental health  
  • AI in clinical decision-making - why it’s more than just a productivity tool 
  • Must-have tech tools for 2025 (that aren’t just another app) 

If you’ve ever felt like your tools are working against you, this is the conversation that might just change the way you practice—for good.

 

Lift your clinical game with our RACE approved clinical podcasts at ⁠⁠⁠⁠vvn.supercast.com⁠⁠⁠⁠  for more clinical confidence and better patient outcomes, or check out our Advanced Surgery Podcast at ⁠⁠⁠cutabove.supercast.com⁠⁠⁠. 

Get case support from our team of specialists in our ⁠⁠⁠Specialist Support Space⁠⁠⁠.

⁠Subscribe to our weekly newsletter⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠for Hubert's favourite clinical and non-clinical learnings from the week.

Join us in person for our epic adventure CE events at ⁠Vets On Tour⁠. (Next up: Japan snow conference!) 

 

Episode topics and timestamps: 05:55 Why veterinary software is so challenging

11:15 What to look for (and avoid!) in veterinary software

14:26 Cloud vs server-based software?

34:08 Unexpected ways where tech can help with the main challenges in veterinary medicine

37:07 AI in veterinary medicine

48:09 Must-have tech tools for 2025

55:14 Advice for new graduates

 

How to Choose the Right Veterinary Software

When choosing veterinary practice information management systems (PIMS) or other veterinary software, Dr. Caleb Frankl, suggests focusing on several key aspects to ensure the software will serve your practice effectively both now and in the future.
Here are the core considerations for selecting the right veterinary software:
  • Long-Term Vision and Innovation
    • Don't pick just for now: It is crucial to select software that is not only suitable for your current business needs but also capable of serving your future requirements.
    • Assess commitment to the future: Understand who is behind the software, their deep understanding of the veterinary market and industry, and their motivations. Question whether the team is built to keep up with technological advancements in the next 5 to 10 years, or if it will simply become an outdated system "with some makeup on it in the cloud".
    • Check track record of innovation: Inquire about their history of innovation and how the software has evolved over time. Speak to existing customers to determine if the software has remained updated or if it has fallen "five years behind in development and updates".
  • Understanding of User Needs
    • User empathy: Look for a provider whose team truly understands the daily realities and challenges of a veterinarian's job. Historically, many software builders have not been end-users, making it difficult for them to grasp the specific needs of veterinary professionals. Dr. Frankl highlights that genuine understanding often comes from direct experience, like the "10,000 hour thing".
  • Team and Support
    • Team size and support: Evaluate the size and composition of the team supporting the software. This indicates the resources available for development, maintenance, and user support.
    • References from peers: Obtain regular references from other veterinary hospitals to gauge their satisfaction and the software's performance in real-world settings.
  • Cloud-Based Technology
    • Modern standard: Cloud-based software is considered the modern way to build and utilise software.
    • Benefits:
      • Accessibility: Your team can access the software from anywhere, which is highly beneficial in the current climate.
      • Enhanced Security: Cloud-based systems generally offer superior security, as they are maintained by professionals using robust security protocols like encryption, similar to banks and governments. This contrasts with server-based systems, which often rely on "mom and pop" local setups that are easier to compromise or for technology to become outdated.
      • Cost-Effectiveness: Cloud-based solutions are typically cheaper overall because they eliminate the hidden costs associated with purchasing, upgrading, and maintaining physical servers and IT contracts.
      • Data Control: If implemented correctly, cloud-based software ensures you don't lose control of your practice data.
    • Considerations: The main downside is the necessity of an internet connection to use cloud-based software. However, some providers like Instinct optimise for 4G connections or offer emergency offline modes to mitigate this. While logins might seem more frequent for security, well-designed systems can balance security with convenience through features like PINs, RFID, or fingerprint access.

 

Tips for Transitioning To A New Software, and Implementation Support

    • Acknowledge disruption: Understand that transitioning to new software is a significant change for your team.
    • Prioritise planning: Technology often fails in the veterinary industry because the importance of planning for rollout is underestimated.
    • Explain the 'why': Clearly communicate to your team the reasons behind the change and the benefits it will bring.
    • Consider starting small: While challenging with a full PIMS, if possible, roll out smaller components (e.g., a digital treatment sheet) first to ease the team into the new system.
    • "Cater to your dinosaurs": Identify individuals resistant to change (often respected members of the team) and actively engage with their concerns. Provide direct support and listen to their feedback to prevent issues from spiralling out of control. Having "champions for change" within the team is also beneficial.
Ultimately, the goal is to find software that addresses existing frustrations, improves confidence, and can adapt to the accelerating pace of medical knowledge and technology.

We love to hear from you. If you have a question for us or you’d like to give us some feedback please get in touch via our contact form at ⁠⁠thevetvault.com⁠⁠, or catch up with us on ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠.

And if you like what you hear, please share the love by clicking on the share button wherever you’re listening and sending a link to someone who you think should hear this. 

 

I don't know if you've ever watched Ted Lasso, the story of an American gridiron football coach who goes to England to coach a Premier League football team, or what many of us would call soccer.If you haven't watched it, you should.It's a master class in culture and leadership.But why am I asking you about Ted Lasso in a podcast episode on veterinary software and technology?
That's a great question.Let me explain it by playing you the start of my conversation with Doctor Caleb Frankel.Did you or do you watch Ted Lasso?Yes, love Ted Lasso.So in episode 1, and I think about this often when it comes to culture and and leadership, he arrives at the club, at the soccer clubs on day one.
He's puts the suggestion box on the table there right where he says talk to the team and the whole team's really negative like or calling him wanker.And also it's and he puts a little suggestion box and say, if you have anything that you'd like to change, tell me.And everybody just insults him basically.
And then one person says the shower pressure is really bad in the change rooms.So these are professional soccer players.And then he changes the shower pressure, he fixes it.And it's like the first cultural thing that he does show the team that I'm genuinely here to support you.And I think about that often.
One of the things, what's the bad shower pressure in Ovid practices?The little things that you've got a job to do, you're a professional.So those guys are professional soccer players.The one thing that you really want once you finish training is have a nice warm shower with good shower pressure.And to me, when I sit down and I'm a professional and I've done my clinical work and I just want to get the admin done and I have bad software, that's a bad shower pressure for me.
That's it.Just just fucking support me in doing the job I want to do.Well, please, that does that sound.Does that fit with how you feel about it?Well, you really started with something hot here.You're going to have to tase me if you if you start a podcast like that with me.I'm here, but I'm straight, and you are listening to The Vet Vault, where we like to get up close and personal with the frustrations in vet life that makes our hair go Gray prematurely, and then talk to the people who are actually doing something about it.
And today's frustration is, as you can tell, all about software and tech, the stuff that's supposed to help us but often feels like it's working against you.My metaphorical bad shower pressure.I'm speaking to Doctor Caleb Frankel, an emergency vet and tech entrepreneur and the founder of Instinct, a practice management software that was born out of pure frustration with outdated, slow, and overcomplicated veterinary software.
Our goal with this chat is to find out why do so many of it's softwares suck so much, what makes it so hard to get it right, and what to actually look for when choosing your next Pims.And don't worry, it's not an ad for Instinct.We are talking broad principles, but this episode goes way deeper than just software.
We talk about confidence and why the lack of it can have such profound impact on your job satisfaction.Caleb shares his big picture view on the challenges facing modern vets and how tech can help with all of it.I also asked Caleb for some insights on how to make that potentially very stressful process of adopting a new software or a tech tool much less dramatic for the entire team.
And of course, we nailed out a little bit on AI.But first, I asked Caleb about my Ted Lesser metaphor.Well, you really started with something hot here.You're going to have to tase me if you, if you start a podcast like that with me, because that that's I mean you, that's why I'm here.You know, my story goes back to the days when I was a full time practitioner.
And you have to understand that I I'm a planner.So for me not to be doing what I set out to do in life is shocking to anybody who knows me.And I did not plan to be a software entrepreneur ever.I got out into practice and it was exactly what you just described, right?
It was way more than just a small thing like shower pressure to me.I counted clicks.You know, when I graduated 2008 from veterinary school and entered my internship, I was in practices that would pay anything for any tool.These are large specialty centers offering internships in the United States.
And I thought it was entering this Mecca of technology.And when you're a vet student, you kind of blinders on.You're just trying to survive, right?Like I, I didn't pay attention to the software we used or didn't in vet school.I was just trying to survive and, and then you get out in the real world, you know, the hospital I did my internship with had won multiple AHA Practice of the Year awards in the United States.
It was, it was very well known.And we were using technology, the Pimms included.I, I just couldn't believe it.I was, I was kind of shocked.And anybody around me will tell Caleb as a baby intern just became obsessed in a weird way about this stuff.
I, I, my plan was to open specialty centers.I really want to become an internal medicine specialist.I'm not, I'm an emergency doctor.And so this is my plan.Internal medicine specialist and open some of the world's best veterinary specialty hospitals.That was the plan.And when I entered my internship, I felt like I was smacked in the face by what you just described, with most of the pimps as the central tool.
And I just became obsessed with the problem.And I haven't stopped thinking about it since.I mean, I think about it more than probably anybody on the planet.And you know, that's what's brought me to what we're doing, an instinct.I want a cool thing, just as an aside as a career driver, to have something that irritates you that much that you are driven to fix it.
Nothing will get you out of bed more than trying to fix that problem.Frustration is a incredibly powerful thing, especially for somebody who's wired like I am, and you'll have to have my wife on the podcast to explain that more deeply.But when I think something can be done better, just look out probably in a negative way sometimes, but but I, I can't stop until but you know, now it's an exciting challenge.
We're we're just scratching the surface on, I think how we approach these problems.And I'm very fortunate in many ways because we're doing it at a you know, it's a wild time to be talking about technology these days, so.So often when you unfamiliar with the field like that and you look at the inefficiencies and the things that suck in something else, it's easy to be judgmental and go, I can do this so much better.
And then you start digging into it and you go.Oh.It's not that easy to be like when you you complain about the leadership of your business and then you become a leader and you go, oh shit, this is actually really quite hard.It's quite challenging.Are they things unexpected?Basically, give me some empathy for the software developers.
Why is it so hard to build a good vegetary software?Why do vegetary softwares often suck so much?I've never used instinct, so I can't say that it's good or bad.Yeah, it's awesome.Non biased answer, No, You know, I think you're thinking about it the right way when when you're in the seat as a end user and a veterinarian especially, you can complain about the software very easily.
And now I have a lot of empathy for the way software got to where it is as a software provider and understanding the challenge of building a system like the PIM system.So I think there are definitely a few reasons why we how we ended up where we are.
I think when you just first of all, look at the type of software that this is, it's really the mother of all software systems.When you build what we call an electronic medical record or a PIM system, but it's almost like heat stroke as a condition you see in the emergency room.
That's how I get equated.And that's because heat stroke is sort of like the mother of all horrible conditions.It results in multi organ failure.Everything just starts shutting down.It's you got to treat liver failure and kidney failure and cardiac arrhythmias and it's everything, right?
And that's what the PIMS is, it's Slack, it's e-mail, it's ACRM tool, it's Salesforce, it's accounting software, it's the tilt, the invoicing system, and then it's medical functionality if you do it well, which is like way beyond what an ERP system is.
So first of all, the scope of what you're building, you know, you look at just a tool like WhatsApp or or Twitter, those tools are like just one fraction of what a PIMS company has to build if you really think about it.And they're investing millions of dollars with hundreds of engineers for any given product, right?
So it's a huge amount of surface area is the first reason.The second thing that I think about a lot is the people who build software, at least until this AI day and age have been very unlikely to be users of this type of software.
So, you know, if you're building an e-commerce site, I always say an engineer can picture what it's like to buy pants online because they probably bought pants online, right?Nobody building this software can envision what it's like to work in emergency in an emergency room as a veterinarian or veterinary nurse.
That's a really hard sort of wall to see over.And so you have to actually build an organization that's really intentional about how you can help them see over the the people who are building see over the wall.Otherwise, I was a huge part of how instinct started.But that doesn't scale.
It can't be one person guiding engineers and product people who've never done this.And so that's been one of the fun challenges we've had at Building Instinct.How do we engineer an engineering team that can scale and build software as if they are the user, even though they don't understand it because they've never done it?
You don't really understand something unless you've done it, like the 10,000 hour thing, right?So, and then the third reason is it costs a lot of money and takes a lot of time and a lot of people are short term minded.And so the problem hasn't really been solved.
And what I mean by that is many PIMS companies have existed.People who aren't in this industry, if you're not running the PIMS company, you often get bored of it.It's a hard challenge.Maybe it's not your passion.Very few have been started, I don't know of many by a veterinarian.This is my life's work.
I view it.I'm not going to quit until this is solved.And that takes in amount of patience that I think very few people are going to have.And so, you know, you stack those three things together, and I think they're a big reason of how we got here and a path maybe to get out of it.That's a great answer that does explain it nicely.
Quick break while I tell you about one of the ways that the Vedvoc can support you in your role.Later you'll hear me chat to Caleb about ways in which AI can help you guide your decision making.Something you know that I'm super excited about.But for now, it just can't replace the help of an experienced expert like a specialist, which is why we have a specialist support space in the Event Vault where you have a big range of specialists who are there online to support you with your clinical conundrums.
I use it all the time.Just last week I asked our dermatologist to help me interpret A challenging culture result and guide my medication decisions based on that.Priceless.Well, not priceless actually.It's $50.00 a month to be exact.That is 1/5 and that is a flat monthly fee that lets you ask as many questions as you want from our medicine, ECC derm, oncology, diabetes, orthopaedic and soft tissue surgery and dentistry experts.
I think that's all of them.There's a link for you in the show description.Go and check it out and hey, ask for help when you need it.OK, back to doctor Caleb.OK, somebody listening to this who is frustrated with the at the moment and then and probably most of my listeners will be GP.
How do you begin to look for, what do you look for in a software?Is it easier to say I'm shopping around here?Things to avoid because it's going to cause you pain?Yeah, I, you know, we think a lot about this, but you know, one of the overarching themes I encourage people to think about is a software transition's a big deal.
Now we in the cloud world, it is smaller, which is good, but it is disruptive.There's no way to sugarcoat that.And so you really want to pick a software that isn't just for now, you want to understand who's behind it.Do they have deep understanding of the market and the industry and what are their motivations for selling you the software system?
I think the sort of conversation on what is it look like now versus where is it going and how will it serve my future needs is something we think about a lot.I was coaching a friend who has their own hospital on looking at things like this.And I think that's not something that people always think about when they're looking at a software system.
They're just looking at what their business is now, what they're looking for in a software system.But they're not thinking about thing we can't think about, which is what does technology look like in 5 to 10 years?And is this team built to keep up with that or is it going to end up looking like the current system I have, but maybe with some make up on it in the cloud and it's no different and not going to innovate and keep up and, and that, you know, I think is a really important thing to look for.
And how do you decide that though, because I agree with you, but I, I don't, I still didn't know what would I, what questions would I be asking?How?How do you assess that when you are looking at a potential software provider?This is obviously a super biased answer, but I think you want to look for #1 who's behind it that has true understanding of what my job looks like every day, right?
I think that's a huge part of it. 2 is what is the size of the team?What does the team look like?Who's supporting this, who's who owns that company or team?And then what's the commitment to the future in terms of track record of innovation in the past, talking to the customers to see how the software has evolved and then looking at, you know, just regular references from peer hospitals.
I think that's a really important thing.OK, so you want somebody who has an understanding of your struggles.You want to look at the track record and say, well, they've had the software for a decade or so and it keeps evolving.It's not still the same thing as you.
Say a pig with makeup on a couple of years later and speak to other vests and say how much do you like it and did you love it at the start and now it sucks because it's five years behind in development and updates.It's reasonable questions to ask.Yeah, I think those are great.OK.Everything's cloud based these days, right?
Because I see that's a common discussion on vet practice forums.We're looking at new software.Is that a given that if you're going to get new software, it's probably going to be cloud based?Is the way it's going right?I mean, I think it should be there are still people buying non cloud based software, which blows my mind a little bit.
And and that brings up another important question, which is, you know, security and data privacy.I don't think a lot of people think about this, but I do think it's really important to think about.You probably have seen this, but some of the, you know, software manufacturers out there have a data mission where they're, you know, selling your PIMS data to the highest bidder.
And you may not think that that's a a big problem, but there there are stories that won't name companies of software systems where lists were harvested, the clients received marketing emails.They were not, you know, these are this is your data as a practice owner and your reputation if you that data is exposed in ways that a client didn't agree to.
So I think that's another really important thing going back to your cloud statement, you know?Actually, but for anybody who doesn't quite understand it, we're assuming that you know you're talking to vegetarians, technophobes to a last degree.So to clarify the distinction between cloud and server based software.
Yeah, yeah.So server based software is sort of the the historical type of software.We all have downloadable software.And when people say server based software, they mean somewhere in your clinic, in a closet, you have an actual piece of hardware, a piece of metal that stores all your records.
If that burns down in a fire, it's all gone.If somebody unplugs it, that room turns off, you can't connect to it.Cloud based software means that device goes away.And in big hospitals, it's usually a room full of devices.It's very expensive to maintain.You also need an IT team to maintain that in house.
But cloud based software, which is really the modern way to build software, means that the servers are somewhere else, usually in a server farm.Companies like Amazon Web Services, Google's about Azure, which is a Microsoft company, maintain these servers and it's way more scalable.
You don't have to worry about this stuff.It it's sort of, you know, to use an extreme example like electricity, when electricity first started, you couldn't just sort of hook up to the grid and outsource it to a power plant.You had to figure that out yourself if you wanted a light bulb to turn on in the early days, right?
So this is sort of the modern utility way to build software and it comes with a ton of benefits.First of all, your team can access it from anywhere.That's really powerful in this day and age.Second of all, the security behind it is way better.This is maintained using professionals, not just yourself, who has to sort of own those important decisions.
And then if done right, the data you don't lose control of that data, which is what a lot of people talk about when it's server based.It feels counterintuitive.I feel like if all the data is stored in my clinic locked in a closet and I don't have to access the Internet to to it feels more secure almost in my clinic because it doesn't the whole Internet doesn't have potential access to it.
How's it safer on the cloud?Well, I mean just like your bank which is cloud based software, right?You can secure anything.So encryption is a fancy word essentially to mean that even if they got a hold of the data, there's nothing they can see in it.
It's scrambled, right?So the fact that it's all over the Internet, that's what credentialing is for.And that's why everything from governments to banks and everything else use sort of standard security protocols to secure that data and it's still secure.The problem with the the locked in your closet and the what I would call the fallacy of that is there are so many problems that you hear about, you know, server based software being quote UN quote hacked or ransomware, if you've heard that term, where essentially the the data is much easier to access because it's not behind sort of a Fort Knox industry standard AWS kind of cloud situation.
And it's every mom and pop who's got their own server room.And it's very easy to sort of out technology those things to break into them.It's harder to keep up that technology.So, so yeah, I mean, it's a good, it's a good point, but there's just so many bad fits to the cloud.
Are there downsides?Like are there any?Is there any reason why somebody shopping would I'm actually going to pick server based?Is it cheaper or is like why would you?Why would anybody choose it still at this day and age?Server based is usually more expensive because what a lot of people forget is you have to pay for the servers, you have to upgrade them, you have to have an IT contract to maintain them, all those things.
So they forget that cost.But when you add it together, usually cloud based is cheaper.The I think the only downside to be fair that is real is you need an Internet connection to use cloud based software.That's just how it is.And our software, for example, one of the ways we deal with that is we actually optimize for 4G connection in case things in Internet connection goes down.
So you can have a backup hotspot or whatever you have use your phone, connect that as the Wi-Fi generator to in an emergency to your your computer computers and and at least get access.Then there are ways to build sort of short term offline downloaded right to your machine kind of stuff.
We also have an emergency mode where you can download key things if you know, if your hospital's in a hurricane situation and you're preparing or something.But human hospitals use cloud based software everyday to run their centers.There's no reason we why we shouldn't transition.We switched to cloud in the last year or so where I work when I do my emergency work still.
And the one thing that's annoyed me, and it sounds silly, but the logins became much more and I think it is obviously because of that security thing.So now it's every time I get to work, I've got to log in and do the, you know, the app that unlocks things and passwords.And then it keeps kicking me out as well.
If I spend time with the case, I'm back.There's words around that you definitely, I mean that's a good thing.That tells me the software you're using is somebody's thought about security, but security and convenience is always a balance.We think about it a lot right now.You can't sacrifice security for convenience, but you can layer inconvenience.
So for example, Instinct has, you know, short term PIN in, you can use RFID systems, things like fingerprint if you have the hardware to, to get into certain systems.So there are ways to still make security convenient.OK.What are common questions that you come across?
Well, I'll tell you the biggest one always is that transition, you know, the disruption of transitioning between softwares.I've been through that a few times in big hospitals.It's traumatic.Do do you deal with that aspect?Have you figured out ways to make it as a traumatic as possible?Yeah, absolutely.
And you know, I, I've lectured on and I'm happy to talk more, you know, about technology more broadly than just the Pimms.Whenever you're rolling something out in a hospital setting, it's really hard.And I think that's where a lot of technology fails in our industry because people don't, they underestimate the importance of planning for this roll out.
So there are a few things I always sort of give as a guide to innovation tips for veterinary sort of trenches.Whenever you're putting in anything, whether that's an AI scribe tool or a new blood gas analyzer to a pimps, the first thing I always tell people is you need key decision maker buy in.
So if you're fighting your practice manager or hospital owner because they're not bought in, it's not usually worth it.I've found you really want to just be aligned and bought into whatever you're doing.It will make a hospital sort of implement much better.The other thing is leadership matters.
So whoever is that person driving the innovation, you are always going to have people who don't want the change.I have a saying that even great change is still change and and people forget that.So the best implementations we've seen has a local leader who is just, you know, leadership is something you sort of know it when you see it, right?
And and these are the people who are the Ted Lasso like leaders.They're able to bring their team along, they're able to work through the challenges.They start with Y.That's one of my favorite ways to lead, right?They explain to the team why they're doing this.Another tip I always give is start small.
Whenever you can figure out a minimal viable, you know, an MVPA minimal viable product or in this case project that can make this easier.That's hard with the Pims.But for example, you could roll out a digital treatment sheet 1st and you can sort of see the benefits of that.
And there's other ways to do it, But whenever you can make it less risky, right?And then another tip I'll leave you with is something I call cater to your dinosaurs.So dinosaurs I, I always get roasted for this, but dinosaurs is this is not your older people on the floor.
That's not what I mean.What I mean is these are the people who are resisting innovation and change.You know who they are, right?In your practice, They're usually, I always find this, they're like the nurse that if your pet sick, you want them treating, right?So they care about this for good reason, like they're worried about patient care, but they're still the dinosaur, right?
And they have to figure out how to adapt to this and change.And so I've gone through, I think 4 PIMS transitions now when I was in practice.And in every one of those, I learned I moved my desk.So I was like one of the Super users, veterinarians helping people, right?
And I moved my desk during the week to one of our nurses who I knew was going to be the dinosaur and she was going to change things for the better or worse because she is respected and everybody looks to her.But I parked my desk next to that person.And so I'd hear her going, this sucks.
Like I told us we shouldn't.Oh, OK, What what's the, what's the issue?Show me what's going on.Let me.Oh yeah, that's that's actually something we knew about.Here's what we're doing about it.You sort of catch it before it can spiral out of control in a clinic environment.So cater to the dinosaurs is really an important part of it too.So you you need champions.
Champions for Change is a turbo I heard recently.So somebody who's really into it and then identify the most resistant body and see if you can get them on board with the help of the Champions for Change.Yeah.Absolutely dinosaurs.We recently adapted AI Scribe software and it's really interesting again to see who the dinosaurs are.
And it's not as you say, it's not always the older people.I'm the oldest in the clinic and I was first in.I loved it.And there's still some of the younger ones like Nope Nope.I like typing my notes okay.Exactly, exactly.Yes, that's why I say it like that.And then there's, you know, there's a whole host of other technology I'm happy to talk about if you're interested.
But I'm really focused on this problem of confidence in the clinic and how technology can help with that.So, but it's a little more than the Pims, but I think there's some really interesting challenges that are right right now for solving that are more than just the Pims.Yeah, please do.What should we be thinking about beyond just the Pims?
Yeah, I give this lecture to veterinary students on sort of the called the Caleb Frankel worldview of like where veterinary medicine is.It's the the lecture I'd give to these a lot of the schools is how to thrive as a new graduate, as a as a student.And there's a number of challenges.
I start this talk with.They're about to enter the world of veterinary medicine.And I think the first one is mental health.We all sort of know about it.When I started lecturing about this it wasn't as widely known, but you know that ones an obvious 1 and I think it ties to some of the others.The other is the next one I talked about is just a price of veterinary medicine of, of veterinary care to the average client combined with the cost of an education.
They're, they're obviously they trend together, but there's some, there's something interesting that's happened over the past 10 years and that is that clients demand more advanced care.That's why emergency bets exist like you and I.And you know, I would say we can in my, at least in the hospital I work at, we can offer the same, I would argue even better care than my child can get at any center in Philadelphia, But it costs the same.
And there's no third party payer in the US that's going to subsidize that.Like in human health, the plates that we use, the drugs that we use, they all cost the same.And people, it's a hard thing to understand.So we're challenged with how do we provide this care to a population of humans who can't always afford it?And so that's that's a challenging 1.
The next one in my doom and gloom slide is, is about overwhelming medical knowledge.This is the other one I really think a lot about.Besides the Pyms, there's do you know who Atul Gawande is?Have you ever read anything from him?Yeah, he's the checklist manifesto guy.
And he he has some really good thinking on just sort of like what modern medicines sort of failing at.And he has this quote.I may butcher it, but the story of our time is as much a story about struggling with ineptitude as it is with ignorance.
And I love this quote because we've sort of moved from this time in medicine 50 years ago, if you went to school when there was barely antibiotics, if you think about it, right, we didn't really know a lot.So our, our problem was ignorance.We, we didn't know how to treat arrhythmias.
We didn't know how to treat feline diabetes.We didn't know how to do a kidney transplant in a cat.We, we didn't know a lot, right?And that gap has closed to the point where actually our problem is more ineptitude.That's really hard for a veterinarian to admit.But it is then ignorance of what I mean is we have this amazing opportunity because we have medical knowledge has advanced so far, right?
And and there's really two ways to fix that problem.Hyper specialization, which is happening, right?And technology, technology is the key to that.So that's another one.And then medical mistakes is the next one.I'll touch on medical mistakes is not, this is not something commonly talked about in veterinary medicine, but it's something I've been keeping my eye on and really focused on.
Obviously with instinct I told you some of the safety features we have.But you know, in human health, the National Institutes of Health have done a couple broad looks at number and scope of medical mistakes, at least in the US And the last time they did this, I think the the sort of media kept headline was you know what, what the take away was, was one to two jumbo jets worth of human beings die per day in the US per day, per day.
OK, You heard that right from medical mistakes.OK, now that's a wild statistic and they've since validated it.If that's true, it would be the number 3 cause of death.There's some controversy around some of this data, but and it by the way, it's not what we think.
Like, oh, I cut off the wrong arm and the person died in an OR.It's also incomplete care, which you know, is sort of like I go into the hospital for chest pain, I got diagnosed with a panic attack, I go home and I die that night of a stroke, right?That's a medical mistake.
And it's not an indictment of medical professionals.This is what we need to get past, right?We need the tools to help us do our job better.AI is going to be a really important tool for that.That's where technology comes in.But it's also, it's also confidence and this, this new product that we're working on, again, self-serving, but the reason we're working on it is because of these problems we're calling standards of care.
But there isn't yet a reference tool like plums for drugs that's sort of like the Bible that you go to, to get the most up to date information on whatever condition you're treating.Human health has this.It's a product called Up to Date that almost every human physician relies on.
We don't have anything like that.And this is the new thing that we're launching that we're really trying to solve this.And I, I think when we zoom out in 10 years, this is going to be as important as the Pimms that we're building in terms of our legacy.It's a it's a project that I've thought about for a long time.I really want to dig into it because that's exactly what I'm and again, it comes to AI, I'm experimenting and playing and building myself tools for exactly that problem.
And it's so interesting.I'm getting that insight more and more because of what I do.So what I do is I do work a little bit as a clinician, but I try and provide veteran education through my clinical podcast and I'm, I'm learning so much through doing it.And then what I find when I get to the clinic floor is, and it's exactly that an aptitude thing because I go now I've got to the widest knowledge base I've ever had in my career because I'm literally doing 2 podcasts a week with some very smart specialists.
So theoretically, I know a lot more and I even have I make show notes.So even have those show notes to code refer back to.But then when it gets to the clinic floor, it's it's, it's exactly what you say too much information.Really.I am too limited as a human being with a brain to incorporate all of that into deceive me.
It is we are just not we're just too stupid.We are really just as human beings, not quite there versus creating tools that can access all of that instantly and think about it much better than that.It it just, it seems like the obvious feature.We're just going to get so much better than what we do.
Well, and we're forgetting the other side, which is where it's going.We're looking at how fast medicine is advancing now, but where it's going.And there's, you probably heard this because I've heard other people quote this, but the NIH in the US also did a, a look at the doubling rate of medical knowledge.Or are you familiar with this, these data points?
So they looked at in human health, the number of published research studies or peer reviewed articles that are published and they looking at that that as the Bank of medical knowledge.And they looked back and in 1950, the sort of doubling rate of medical knowledge was estimated to be every 50 years, OK.
And then they said, what was it in 1980?And they said, oh, wow.OK, looking back, it's doubling every seven years, OK.And then they looked at it in 2010 and they said, holy cow, it's doubling every three years.And, and they estimated, I think sometime in 20, the 20 twenties, they estimated it would be doubling every 7 zero days.
OK, the doubling rate of medical knowledge.So I'm not saying it's the same in veterinary medicine, but that's in human health.So you can extrapolate.The point is we're not going to be able to do what we used to do.You can't keep up.No, we have to have better tools for this.Right.And and I see it because we get referrals as well when I work in emergencies as you would.
And you read through case histories and you're like, yeah, that thing that you did, you shouldn't have.Done that, yeah.That changed five years ago.It's we don't do that anymore.But I don't blame you because I know what your life's like.You are busy.You.That's what people don't understand.They're not doing that because they're evil and they don't want to help the pet.
They're doing it because that's the best they can do.You need a tool that we we can go, all right, this is my case and I may have had the same case a month ago, but it's worth checking again.Has anything changed in the last month and how I handled DKA or something like that 100?Percent and it's more than that too.
I mean, I think some references have tried to do this with the evidence based approach, but that is very limiting.What we're trying to do with standards is it's it's built with plums in it.So it's got all the drug reference, but we're trying to do something special with the tone so that it we're we're comfortable covering the best we know when there isn't evidence.
So practical scenarios, some might call this spectrum of care if you've heard that term, but we want to tackle these sort of hard decisions that veterinarians have to embark on.But right now they're sort of embarking on their own unless they have an internist on speed dial or whatever that is, right?
We want to provide sort of the reference that, you know, quite frankly, I've dreamed about since I was a younger veterinarian and it's a huge undertaking, but so is the Pyms and and that's what we do at Instincts.So just to backtrack to your your four key challenges when you do a doom and gloom speech, a mental health, the price of care and the price of education as to opposing tension causing opposite ends of the scale, overwhelming medical knowledge, we've just discussed that now and then mistakes ties into that, right?
So, so are you saying in your talk that the solution to those things as part of the solution is going to be in technology, right?How?How does the mental health piece die into that?Yeah, I mean, I think about this a lot.Look, mental health is, it's obviously a real disease.
We used to treat it like it wasn't a real disease.It's a, it's a clinical syndrome, right?Like diabetes or anything else.But they're just like any other conditions.There can be triggers for things like this.And when you dig into some of the mental health issues we have in our profession, I can relate to this.Confidence is a really important thing and hard thing to come by for a veterinarian, especially for veterinarians because we're weird in that we're not coin operated.
We didn't go into this for the money.I mean, I think everybody hopefully knows that by now based on our, you know, salaries versus we could be human physicians and make a lot more.In Australia you could be a plumber and make a lot more so that's.That's exactly right, Right.And so, OK, so that's the case.
So why are we, what are we motivated by?We're trying to help.We really do care about what we do in our animals.And so it's devastating when you can't be confident.We spend 80% of our life or more at work, right?And for your chosen profession not to be confident, that affects your mental health.
That's a real thing.And and then the other part of it feeds in because when you're not confident, you can make mistakes.There's good data that shows that making a medical mistake can really harm your career trajectory when it comes to mental health, you burn out because you're not as productive as another Doctor Who might be more confident or more experienced, right.
So you're getting pressure about the financial upkeep.So I always say if I thought a rubber tire would fix some of these problems, you I would be instinct would be an innovative rubber tire company.But technology and I think software, I'm obviously biased towards high quality, thoughtfully designed software.
I think that's one of the most important ways we can make a dent in some of these problems and that's, you know, why we're doing what we're doing.Yeah, yeah, that's interesting that that the things you list are not all of them, but the mental health thing.That's a lot of why I do the vet vault as well.
And that's why I started because initially I wanted to address mental health through non clinical podcasts.And then I realized exactly that thing is knowing your shit makes you more confident and makes you enjoy work more because it's that going home going that I do the right thing.I'm not sure what I'm doing.I feel lost, I feel sad and prostate thing versus going.
I know, I know because I literally learned that last week and I know that's the most up to date data.So that case is not going well.It's not my fault, it's just not going well.It's not because of my lack of my skill or ineptitude as you say.So I think I think I try and achieve the same things.Yeah.
And then AI is just a whole new world for tickets to the next level and embedding it into the software systems.That's where I get really excited.Yeah.So let's talk about that because that's so I'll tell you what what I'm doing for my personal work life and I'm offering it to some extent to the vet fault users as well.
ChatGPT is my main one when I try you work with other ones as well, but I'm a little bit and I'd love to get your thoughts on that.Why not just use ChatGPT?Because ChatGPT as it is or one of the others is actually pretty bloody good at medical stuff.But what I still have that little bit of doubt of where you're getting your information from when I ask you a medical question.
Where are you still?Are you reading some breeders blog?Yeah.That's where your data's from.So what I've done, I've made myself a bunch of AI assistants.I give it the the data.So for example, so for example, my clinical podcasts all have show notes.
So I've got 600 and something episodes now with show notes and they're great resource.But what I've done, I've put that in an AI assistant so subscribers can now go in and just say, do you have any information on I said DK earlier, yes, OK, cool.What's the once Professor Church has recommended treatment protocol and you can ask it questions and it's phenomenal.
It's really, really good.But but I've just realized, OK, so those are my show notes.It's still a teeny little bit of information versus the.So the next thing I've built for myself because I, you know, blood gases, they're great when they're simple, but they're really complicated ones.They're really complicated.
And then I'll find myself sitting there for half an hour with a textbook trying to figure out why the hell I've put a bunch of data on blood gas analysis from top level data in an AI assistant.And now I go, I type in my values in the right order and it will give me a full analysis.
And then I can say, OK, but I still don't understand why the bicabs low and that it's phenomenal.Yeah, I'm just getting so excited about it.So that's the sort of thing that that you're building with standards of care is to say, here's a curated knowledge base that's really AI can search and think about and put it into context view.
OK, Yeah, absolutely.Wow, You're thinking about this exactly right.Way back in the early part of the show, you asked me why did a pimps company buy a content company.That's essentially the question, right?And this was always sort of part of the thesis for that.
We knew that I wrote a piece about AI to my team and I called.I'm trying to take a balanced perspective on what is a really exciting technology, right?We're in.If you really zoom out, we're in what I call the Ask Jeeves days of AI.If you remember the Ask Jeeves search engine.
Before Google was a thing, yeah.Yeah, I mean, everybody was enamoured.It it it was a fascinating tool, but it doesn't exist today.And and there's a good chance that all a bunch of these consumer AI tools are going to be gone by the way of ass sheets.We're we're in some wild early robot times and and I love it, but that's just what this is.
And and you know, the one thing you said that I I don't agree with is that ChatGPT or a general purpose trained on the open Internet LMLLM is going to be a useful tool for a veterinarian, no.I I wasn't stating I'm, I'm asking because I play with it like I experiment.
I I try it too.Housing it good.It is surprisingly good, and especially the new models, they're impressive.Dangerous, though, that's the problem.And you know, most veterinarians I work with, the wrist is too big, at least in its current existence of technology.Remember, these tools are most of the Internet is Reddit and Twitter, and I don't know many veterinarians who want to get their medical advice from that right.
And they hallucinate.I'm sure you're familiar with that problem, which essentially means it's really good and really right until it's not.And it's still really convincing about its wrongness, totally.Yeah, no, I mean, trust me, I play with it a bunch, especially around drug information.It's pretty interesting, but scary.
But you're on to something in that the, the future where we're going is going to be incredible.I think of reference tools, for example, one point O2 point O3 point O sort of way.So I, I always say one point O referencing is when I was in vet school, there was really no apps.
I, I was a nerd with a Palm Pilot experimenting with things that shows how old I am.But, but there was a plums book on a shelf, right?So we pulled plums off.We looked at it.The two point O is, Oh my gosh, we digitized this thing.Now it's on my phone.Plums is an app that anybody can subscribe to.
It's updated, most people don't know this, but weekly if not more regularly.So the content is there.A new drug comes out.We used to have to wait four years till the next edition. 2 point O is it's available as soon as it's in the app, right?But then there's a three-point O, which is super interesting. 2 point O is OK, I'm looking up a drug like amoxicillin and I need to look up something in the monograph.
So I search for amoxicillin and I go to that monograph and I read it.The three-point O referencing, which is where we want to go with instinct is OK, I have a 12 year old diabetic dachshund with XYZ but also AB and F and it's essentially the question you're trying to seek without having to go to a diabetic monograph.
Think if you were talking to your favorite internal medicine specialist and you're like, I've got this case, I know how to treat diabetes and dachshunds, but this is going on.Have you ever seen anything like this?That's the future.That's the three-point O referencing where it can consolidate really important information really fast and help shortcut the confidence that you need.
We don't all have access to internists and surgeons and hyper specialists, right?So how do we scale that in a way that helps all of our patients?And yeah, you nail it.That's what we're trying to do.So I'll tell you my, my, my dream of where it should can be and should be.
And, and I want to know, is that what you're creating?So because again, I, I use AI, it's silos at the moment.So we have no taking app and I'm using it for clinical decision making with these things that I, that I explained.And I want to, you know, I can think of 20 more things that I want to make specific tools for specific scenarios, but I'd love it if it could all just be one thing.
As you say, the knowledge is out there.I can go spend an hour on sites and textbooks and all and I can, if I'm smart enough, I can put it all together.But I don't have the time and I and I don't have the mental capacity to do it and, and these tools have that.
So you're going to build that for us?Yeah.I mean, think about that world you're describing, you, you sort of go to that 3 point O reference sort of state, but then it's generative on the other side because it helps you do your job in the next steps, right.And you asked is that what we're doing?
We named the company Instinct way back in 2017 for a reason.You know, I always think of us as think of that that name as we want to build thoughtful automation or our caretakers.That's our mission, right?And caring for the caretakers through this sort of thoughtful automation technology enabled thoughtful automation is where we can go.
And there's so many layers to that in this day and age of AI with AII think it's I think it's going to fundamentally change everything.Just to be clear, but I think about it in in three sort of ways.One is it's a productivity tool.
So in its current state, it's amazing.There's some amazing things, but we're not at anything like AGI or anything like that.I think there's a lot of hype.I think if you really think about it, Chachi PTS existed for what, 2 1/2 years?And meaningfully there's sort of two key use cases. 1 is it's a very interesting new way to search, OK.
And two, it's very good at helping push paperwork type tasks, right?But it hasn't done too much more yet.It could be the greatest productivity tool in our history though, when this is all done.And we're already seeing that in meaningful ways with things like AI scribing, like you mentioned, record summarization, some really interesting AI diagnostic companies out there.
So that's number one.Productivity #2 is I think this is going to take longer than we all think.These changes happen sort of gradually, then suddenly, but we're still in the gradually state, right?And then three, I think is the most interesting.And that is that whenever new tech emerges, I'm like a nerd about this stuff.
We think about the current state we're in and what it can do.But what we forget is all the tools that will come after that couldn't have existed before AI existed.So we can't even think about what those are, right?So new tech's gonna come that couldn't have been built, and that's where this meaningful layer is gonna come in.
It's sort of like when the Internet came along and everybody was enamored by search.But what search enabled was a company called Google, and what Google built was essentially a really powerful way to do browser based software.And that unlocked the world of cloud software.
But you couldn't have ever done that without some of that early foundational companies like Salesforce and Google and the cloud technology that came out of the success of Amazon.And so it's this layer of things that couldn't exist without the AI enablement.
It's going to be super exciting and we can't even think about what those are.So it's back to the AI or the Ask Jeeves days of AI.Yeah, it is.It is really exciting.So I painted my dream.Is that what you're working on?Please tell me you're building that game.
Yeah, we're absolutely working on that.It's a it's a long term vision though many of these things are not going to happen overnight.You know, we, we focus the first part of our company's journey on building a kick ass digital workflow system.And it is, in my opinion, awesome, super biased, but it's, you know, it has that kind of reputation out in the market.
We've done some really special things that nobody's done before.And I think we do it in a way that most veterinarians feel like, wow, like this software gets what I do.And that's the thing that's the most important for us.But getting to that point takes time and it takes a lot of focus.And so now we're in the part of the journey where we are trying to do the same thing with a full PIMS platform.
And we're sort of getting there, but we're in a really exciting state of that.Two years ago, I would have said, hey, we're, we're, we're a baby PIMS, we're early, we're new now we're a much more mature system.It's really awesome to see.And that's going to unlock the next few years, which is basically taking on all these really exciting tools.
And we're obviously putting in the layer of things like Plums, standards of care, this new product, all peer reviewed content.So again, when you're going to be able to build a system like you just said that you dream about, you want it based on peer reviewed content, that's sort of what we're headed towards.
And then your own data within the Pims is really interesting for how an AI tool can help you catch errors, be a bill billing audit tool for you, do some of the things that are real world challenges for our hospitals.So yeah, that's sort of the next state.
So exciting and so overwhelming.How are you for time, Caleb?Because I have a few more questions if you if you have time.Yeah, yeah, I have a little more time.I still need to do the wrap up questions but I am curious right now. 2025 take tools for veterinary clinicians.
That's not instinct so you're not allowed to be biased with it.What would you say to people If you're not using this, you should seriously look at it.Yeah, other tech besides, you know what we're working on?Well, I think there's a ton of things.So just in AI, I won't mention specific companies, but there are ton of AI enabled tools that are really meaningful even today.
So keep an eye on some of these AI radiology enabled companies.There are some AI scribing, AI translation, AI summarization specific to veterinary medicine.They're super interesting.I think one of the challenges, and I don't have any good solutions to this is there are so many of these companies popping up right now.
I don't know how to recommend where to start.Again, going back to the Ask Jeeves days of where we are.But then there's some non veterinarian AI tools that should be on most veterinarians radar you are on.You probably realize this but like the vets I work with, there's maybe one out of 100 like you and me right that are like nerdy enough to understand some of the other ones.
I'm not even an expert at this but one that I've been playing with that's super powerful is Google's Notebook LM.Have you tried this?Yes, this is based on Gemini, which is Google's version of ChatGPT.And it's actually really powerful.
I've been using it a lot.It's really good at taking stacks of PDFs.Maybe you're maybe you're a veterinarian and you want to keep up on your journal articles.You can feed it this.And here's one of the favorite parts.It can make an NPR style podcast for you on whatever topic.Like I fed it our instruction manual and it did a podcast about it, which was really cool.
Like Instincts instruction manual.And it now allows you to interact with the podcast.I don't know if you've tried that yet.Oh yeah, you can stop it in the middle and ask a question and they'll interact with you.It's fascinating, scary, fascinating you.But there are tools like that.Obviously ChatGPT is really incredible.
I don't know if you've played with ChatGPT or Gemini's research model.They keep changing the names, but I think Gemini is called 2 point O research pro or something right now.But but this is essentially you can ask it a bunch of questions that you would normally like want to research.So something about a business or something about a question that you have that has nothing to do with veterinary medicine.
And it will create a research plan, show that to you like you tweak it.And then I'll go out and produce a giant document like a consulting firm would on this.And these are impressive.You have to pay for the paid version of ChatGPT for this, but Gemini's is much cheaper.
And it's, I mean it, the output's incredible, honestly.So those are a few things.There are some really interesting hardware applications of AI emerging too that I've been following.Somebody's working on a very early tool that is a stethoscope attachment and it provides a more non obtrusive sort of layer of AI where it can listen and transcribe and you're in the room and you don't need to.
Like one thing that bothers me about AI right now is you sort of have to, it's very intrusive.Like if you're on a zoom call, it's the third box, which is like, why is that a third box?You also have to break out your phone and go, hey, client, do you mind if I press the record button?It's just disruptive.So I I I look forward to the day where it becomes very natural and part of the workflow.
So exciting.I love it.I'm I'm like you.I actually have slight moments of panic where I just go, there's so much happening and I can't keep up.I have major FOMO.I'm just like, I know there's, I'm doing this job and I know there's five better ways to do this, but it's going to take me a half a day to figure it out.
So I, it actually causes me some low level anxiety.That's how exciting it is.I.Think my best advice is most of our colleagues are not high tech and and so it's even more overwhelming and anxiety inducing to hear this, but I think it's just a iterative one day at a time.
Find a always start with the problem.That's what I tell these hospitals.What problem are you solving?Then let's find some solutions to that because they probably exist to make things iteratively better for your staff and just go one by one, one day at a time solving problems.I'm biased.I think the pimps is a great way to start, but I think there are lots of problems in these hospitals.
And I, we used to always have an innovation committee, but I always focused us on not what new tool you saw at the conference and you want to try, what problems are we trying to solve?Let's start there.And when I speak to people about specifically the whole AI thing, people just often they'll go, I'm not that techie, I don't understand tech.
I'm not into computers and stuff.So I'm tapping out.But this is the thing, I'm not, you are a computer person, Caleb.I'm not.This is the amazing thing.It's so user friendly.It is.So you just talk, you just talk like a human and you get solutions.So it's I, I'd encourage people not to be intimidated by the fact that it's tech based because it's not like traditional.
There's no programming or understanding.No, I mean, well, another way to say it is the new programming language because of AI is English.Yeah, exactly.It's amazing.All right, I need to let you go at some point.We have to do the the wrap up round.If you have time for it.Podcasts.Are you a podcast listener?
I am a big podcast listener.Besides obviously the vet vault.I'll give a I'll give a non veterinary podcast that I think is awesome for leaders of all types and obviously veterinary hospital owners and and veterinarians who lead wisdom from the top.It's by the guy who does how I built this.
So basically it profiles leaders CE OS and it's always got interesting stories.OK.You mentioned the vet felt there I will have to berate you in researching you.I was reading your blog and on the 31st of May 2023, which is my birthday by the way, the 31st of May, you wrote a blog about useful resources for emergency veterinarians and you put a lovely list of very valid resources.
But there was a glaring omission.And so by the when I see.Always get seeing for these lists.We can't win, but you're trust me, because you're saying this, you're definitely going to get on the next one.I'll, I'll see you in Ibex at the end of the year and we'll, I'll double check that.Listen, you have a couple of months to fix your fault.
I I forgive you because, as you say, it is.I appreciate that, yeah.All right.Your pass along question, the question from our previous guest for you not knowing who you are in your space, the thing that you're an expert in, which I think is pretty obvious what that is for you, what is the number one misconception or mistake or error that you would like to see go away?
I think I'll go back to this, this, I don't know if it's a mistake or an error, but this lack of confidence that is really, I think not talked about in the veterinary space, but this sleeping giant of a problem that we all face.
I think it's a really interesting one to bring up because I think it deeply involves both my job as a vet, practicing emergency vet and my job as a technologist trying to build software tools to solve some of those.So, you know, the the confidence gap, I'll call it in it that's sort of emerging in veterinary medicine.
Yeah, question for my next guest from Caleb.Question for your next guest.I'll go with what is the best piece of leadership advice you received in the last year?And then the last wrap up question, you have the opportunity to speak to all of the veterinary new grads of 2025 and give them one little bit of advice on their veterinary career.
What's Caleb's advice?I always give this when I lecture to the vet students, but I think there's a lot of negativity around becoming a veterinarian because of all those challenge I listed earlier.And I couldn't disagree more with that negativity.I think we, I, I tell the students you are entering what I view as the best profession in the world.
There's so much opportunity, The things you have to be positive about.If you can maintain that positivity when you enter the profession and work on systems so that you can do the job that you love without sort of some of the negativity that can come with it.
It's one of the best professions I could ever think of, and they're entering it and they're about to spend their life and career doing it and they should embrace that and go into it intentionally.I love that and I think you're what you're doing is such a great example of that because yes, there are challenges.
It's a it's a great profession.But yes, there are challenges, but you have this opportunity to make a difference to those challenges to go.This is the thing that really annoys me and frustrates me in this job.Well, let me make it better for the guys behind you can become your thing.Look at Caleb, maybe you become a substrate available.
I mean, yeah, it can take you in weird places, but even if you are entrepreneurial, there's just so much opportunity to make change versus human health, which there is not.I mean, there's more regulation.There's different types of ownership.You can't open a hospital.
That's not really a thing.You can't work for an independently owned hospital.There's so many different things, even in tangential professions that aren't even as close to as great as we have it in veterinary medicine.I hope that positive sort of light returns to sort of the connotation of entering veterinary medicine.
Awesome.Thank you, Caleb, for your time and thank you so much for working on the stuff that gives me FOMO, the stuff that I don't have the I wish, I wish I could, I wish I had a separate life that I could work on these same problems.But I'm so glad that other people are thinking about the same stuff and fixing it.
Well, people like you, though, I mean, well, you're, I want to stay in touch.You're, you're one of those, whenever I find a veterinarian who thinks like this, I latch on to them because we're few and far between.And the profession needs more and more people doing what you're doing, talking about these things because they're important.
They're important for veterinarians even who may not see them as important.So the more we can have people like you talking about it, the more we can make for progress.Great.So if somebody like me is interested in finding out more and seeing what you're doing, where do we find you?Just Google instinct or or how do?
You.Yeah, I think LinkedIn is probably the best.I'm not a big social person, but Linkedin's a great place to find me and I'm pretty responsible on there.OK, perfect.Thanks so much.Before you disappear, I wanted to tell you about my weekly newsletter.
I speak to so many interesting people and learn so many new things while making the clinical podcast.So I thought I'd grant a little summary each week of the stuff that stood out for me.We call it the Vet Vault 321 and it consists of three clinical pearls.These are three things that I've taken away from making the clinical podcast episodes, my light bulb moments, two other things.
These could be quotes, links, movies, books, a podcast highlight, maybe even from my own podcast.Anything that I've come across outside of clinical vetting that I think that you might find interesting.And then one thing to think about, which is usually something that I'm pondering this week and that I'd like you to ponder with me.
If you'd like to get these in your inbox each week, then follow the newsletter link in the show description wherever you're listening.It's free and I'd like to think it's useful.OK, we'll see you next time.

Dr Caleb Frankl