July 9, 2023

#96: The Day You Didn't Die. With Dr Doug Mader

#96: The Day You Didn't Die. With Dr Doug Mader
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Season 1

Dr Doug Mader is a triple board-certified veterinary specialist and has been a veterinarian for nearly four decades. He is an internationally recognized speaker, has written three best-selling medical textbooks, and numerous scientific publications. He has had long-standing columns in multiple media outlets, and he is the recipient of the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Conservation Award, the UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine Alumni Achievement Award, and the Fred L. Frye Lifetime Achievement Award for Veterinary Medicine. He's a seven-time winner of the North American Veterinary Community Speaker of the Year award and a four-time winner of the Western Veterinary Conference Educator of the Year award. He is also a fellow of the Royal Society of Medicine in the United Kingdom and is Human Animal Bond Certified. He co-founded and ran highly successful practice in California for many years, then did it again in the Florida Keys, and can now add author to his list of achievements with the release of his recent book ⁠The Vet At Noah's Ark⁠. Step aside James Herriot - the man has a few stories and more than just a few bits of wisdom to share. 

 

In this episode, we discuss both planned and unplanned career changes, trauma (the big T and the small-t kinds), working as an exotics vet, creating your own luck, and following your own star. Dr Doug discusses the human-animal animal bond, specifically how to effectively deal with the 'human' part of that relationship, lessons he learned from years of building the best practice in the worst neighbourhood, what it was like to treat Michael Jackson's pets, and much more.

 

Topic list:

04:37 Dr Doug's triple board certifications.

13:04 The day Dr Doug didn't die, and how this lead to a career in exotic animals.

21:55 From exotic residency to buying a smallies clinic.

29:55 The role of the human-animal bond and money's place in it.

35:38 Dealing with the human aspect of the human-animal bond.

42:20 Dr Doug's experience treating celebrity pets.

43:53 More of Dr Doug's story and his book - The Vet At Noah's Ark.

46:47 Big traumas vs small traumas - the preparation for the hurricanes in life (literally and metaphoric!)

52:45 Why Dr Doug doesn't celebrate his birthday anymore.

55:04 Getting back up after you've been knocked down.

56:22 Dr Doug's next chapter - more books to come!

60:17 What advice does 85-year-old Doug give current Doug?

62:37 Dr Doug's favourite podcasts.

63:54 Dr Doug's piece of advice to new grads - a lesson on balance.

 

Join our community of Vet Vault Nerds to lift your clinical game and get your groove back with our up to date easy-to-consume clinical episodes at ⁠⁠⁠vvn.supercast.com, ⁠⁠⁠visit ⁠⁠⁠thevetvault.com⁠⁠⁠ for the show notes and resources for this episode, and connect with us through our online ⁠⁠⁠Vet Vault Network.⁠⁠ for episode highlights, discussions, questions and support.

Join us at ⁠⁠⁠Vets on Tour in Wanaka, New Zealand⁠⁠⁠ on 13 - 18 August 2023 for great CE, live podcasting and snow... lots of snow!

Come help us create some live clinical content at IVECSS '23 in Denver, Colorado from 7-11 September.

Dr Doug's website.

Dr Doug's book: The Vet At Noah's Ark.

Dr Doug's Instagram.

Before we start this episode, I want to tell you a quick story of how I helped save a life this week at work.I particularly like the story because it was the life of a very cute little sausage dog pub, and I love winter dogs.So puppy came in in severe spiritual distress, like gasping blue, really bad.
And I had that familiar mild panic that I get whenever I'm presented with a patient that can't breathe.You know that feeling when you're slightly frazzled and you're thinking, shit, this is bad?What do we do?Do we give it oxygen?Good.Now what?Where do we go?What do I do next?And then I remembered that I'd literally just finished the show notes the day before for an episode we did on our clinical podcasts about localizing the source of the problem in acute respiratory distress cases with ECC specialist Dr. Rob Webster.
Which is a super tactical episode that teaches you how to figure out the problem in the six steps that you take between the clinic door and the crash bins using just your eyes and your stethoscope.So I took a deep breath.I went step one.No, Step 2.
No, Step three.Yes. 30 seconds later and I knew what was wrong with my puppy. 15 minutes later we had him stabilized and a day later he went home.That was the sound of me dropping my mic.If you want more mic, drop Moments and stories like that in your working life.
Confidence stories where you know your stuff.Check out our clinical podcast at vvn.supercast.com.That's VVN for Vet Wealth Network.Your first two weeks are free and all of the episodes are backed by show notes with the highlights and key takeaways so you can pull them up anytime you need them.
OK, so Speaking of stories to get my microphone back and Mike stand, I have two questions for you.Hands up if your decision to become a vet was influenced at all.By James Harriet and his stories about a life filled with animal related adventures and misadventures question two How many of you have nearly died but didn't, but then, in the process of not dying, had all of your plans ruined and your dreams dashed?
Well, not to give too much away, But Dr. Doug Mayer would put his hand up for both of these questions.But more than that.He's lived that life filled with animal adventures first inspired in him by old James Alf White, and probably, well, actually, definitely eclipsed him in the scope and the scale of his own stories.
And as a young man, he did cheat death and have all of his dreams taken from him.I've always been fascinated.How do you deal with the darkness that follows A catastrophic event?How do you get up from it mentally, even when physically getting up is a real challenge?
I'm astounded.And humbled by the grit and the resilience that some people have.And we're talking resilience with a capital I here.Not the resilience that you need just to deal with the grumpy client.And then the amazing careers and lives and sets of values and beliefs that come out at the other end of these experiences.
The gifts of service, the light that breaks through these periods of darkness.Lemons and lemonade, right.But this is not just lemonade.It's pure gold.So who is Dr. Doug?Doctor Doug Mader is a Triple Board Certified Veterinary Specialist and has been a veterinarian for nearly four decades.
He's an internationally recognized speaker, has written three best selling medical textbooks and numerous scientific publications.He's had longstanding columns in multiple media outlets, and he's the recipient of the US Fish and Wildlife Conservation Award, the UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine Alumni Achievement Award, and the Fred Al Fry Lifetime Achievement Award for Veterinary Medicine.
He is a seven time winner of the North American Veteran Community Speaker of the Year Award and a four time winner of the Western Veterinary Conference Educator of the Year Award.He is also a fellow of the Royal Society of Medicine in the United Kingdom and is Human Animal Bond certified.
He founded and worked in a practice in California for many years and these days he lives and works in the Florida Keys and can add author to his bio with the recent release of his book called The Vet at Noah's Ark.Step aside, James Herrett.The man has a few stories and more than just a few bits of wisdom to share.
Please enjoy Dr. Doug Mater.Welcome to the Vet World Podcast, and thank you so, so much for making time to chat to us.
Thank you for the invitation.It's really a pleasure.Appreciate being here.I do just have to start with.Every bio of you I read says triple board certified specialist.And I can't for the life of me find exactly what your triple board certified it.What are your specialties?
I've got three.The first one that I got, it's the American Board of Veterinary Practitioners Canine and Feline Practice.Then I went on later and got American Board of Veterinary Practitioners, Reptile and Amphibian Practice, and in the same year, because they do a lot of teaching in Europe, I got certified as a diplomat in the European College of Zoological Medicine with a subspecialty and herpetology.
OK, so it started with dogs and cats, so just got sort of standard on the same boring old vet practice not boring.And then went down the the creepy Crawley.Scaled variety of patients that became more of your your Would it be fair if you say passion or interest or?
I love medicine, so the dogs and cats, I mean, that's really where the solid medicine is.But yeah, I definitely think the passion is the the exotics.You know, I was born in the Florida Keys and grew up tracing through the swamps with my older brother, so all things slimy and gross were my best friends.
Yeah, okay, you definitely you fairly unique there's a bunch of you guys but.Most vets I know want to run the other way when they see those sort of patients.Doug, I I often start or usually start the podcast with a question.Bad decisions lead to good stories and I like that statement.
Definitely true.They can certainly lead to interesting detours in life.I'd love to know, do you agree with that?And if you agree with that, do you have any examples for us of where that was true in your life?Oh God, how many hours do you have you?When it comes to bad decisions, I think I'm the encyclopedia.
Yeah, I definitely think so.And I think a friend of mine is a professional comedian and he's hilarious.And I asked him once, I said where do you get your, your the stuff for all of your jokes?And he goes, this is really good stuff he can't make up.And it's the stuff that really happens.
And I definitely some of the stories that have happened to me because of my own stupidity, it's like part of you wants to share it just because it's cathartic and part of it's like, I'm so embarrassed.I don't want to talk about this, but.I am surprised.I have both eyes, both ears, a nose tall, 10 fingers.
I started my career as a farrier.It's a blacksmith, you know, I used to shoot horses and when I was about 15, I moved away from home and I went to blacksmith in college.And at 15 years old, you know, I figured, OK, this is my chance to get out there and make something for myself.
So when I went to this college and I didn't have a lot of money, so I scraped together every penny that I had, I really worked hard and I was in this.College with a lot of boys and younger men, much older than me, So I had to something to prove.And I was 15, They were, you know, 1819 in their 20s.
And so I would do my horseshoeing and do my assignments, and often times I'd finish early and then I'd get bored and I would get myself into trouble.And on one particular morning I'd finished my horses that I was supposed to do and I don't smoke.But back then all the Cowboys chewed tobacco and tobacco came in this little tin about the size of a hockey puck.
And they would keep their snuff in the tin and they would chew on it and spit out the spit.And then when they were done, they'd throw the can away.And what we used to do is we used to take these cans and we'd fill them with fly spray and then we would use it to wipe down the horses and, you know, wipe down our our hands and our ears and stuff to keep the flies off us.
And so on particular day, I got really bored and I filled the can with fly spray.And just for the hell of it, I threw it into the forge and it exploded.Just like a bomb.It's on a fire bomb probably 50 feet up in the air.And aside from taking off all my the what little post pubescent hair I had on my lip, my eyebrows, you know, since the hair on the top of my head and my arms, it also scared the living Pejesus out of all the horses that were tied up getting chewed.
And so all of the the other classmates got stumpled.So somehow I managed to get out of there with my eyesight and my limbs and they didn't beat the crap.When you said you can't believe you still have both your eyes and everything, I assumed you were just talking about A, working with horses and then B working with what we talked about before lizards and snakes and all of those sort of things.
I mean, I look at some of the stuff that you do with some interesting animals and I I do wonder about the the bad decision, but just in your everyday working life?Well, I'm.Fortunately, I think when I'm working, working, then I'm not just, you know, my ADD kicking in.
I'm focused and I tend fortunately not to make a lot of really dumb mistakes because certainly.If you've ever seen the picture of me swimming with one of my patients, the alligator Casper, you know you can't afford to make a mistake there because you will lose an arm or a leg or a face.
So I'm pretty careful when it comes to working with the animals.It's when I'm not focused that sometimes my mind wanders and I get in trouble.Comes up.Isn't there a statistic that the it's a ridiculously high percentage of?Traumatic deaths in humans occurs almost exclusively in young males, I think between 15 and 25 or something like that.
Basically dumb ways to die.Boys that age definitely lead the charge in finding dumb ways to die.Yeah, I think it's called, I think it's called natural selection.Absolutely.So Doug, I'd love to recap your your career.Trajectory or your story from blacksmithing to where you are now.
And I don't want to rehash stuff that's out there.When I researched you, I found some really good podcasts where you talked about your story.So if you'd allow me to do a quick recap and then we'll jump into a couple of points along that story.So blacksmithing, I like the one conversation where you said you the blacksmithing became a thing.
You're gonna you wanted to be a human doctor and then you decided to become a blacksmith to impress girls.Basically, right, Chris.Blacksmith's because girls.Girls with horses like guys.The girls like the young guys that are all muscular and sweaty.I think the girls is like the guys who can fix their horses feet for them and they pretended like the boy and then then you through that you started mixing with horse vets and you started going, oh this is quite cool.
I like the the more cerebral part of it, not just the sweaty muscular part of it and decided to do vet and you're going to be a horse vet, is that right?Yeah.Did you ever get a chance to read any of the James Harriet novels?You know, All Creatures, Great and Small and.As a kid, the.
Veterinarian from England.He wrote him in the early 70s.Yeah, as a kid, I did.Yeah, the the vet that I worked for was a really great influence on me and he knew that I liked medicine, he liked working with the horses.And so he gave me one of the the original James Harriet book, All Creatures Great and Small.
He used to take this home.I think you'll probably really like it and I read it and just instantly fell in love with it.Just say what a.Lifestyle man.He gets to work with horses.You get to do medicine, get to be out in the countryside, breathe the fresh air.It's just really.And then James Harriet is just a phenomenal storyteller.
I mean, Oh my God, his his wordsmithing is just unparalleled.And then I found out he wrote a whole series.So I went to the library and checked out all, all of the series.And I read all the books probably in a period of about a month or a month and a half.And that pretty much sealed the deal.You know, I said, OK, this way I can do it all I can.
I can be a doctor.I can work with horses.You know, I can do medicine.Yeah, that.That's.That's definitely what did it for.Me, I definitely had a a vision of working because at the when I went through vet school in South Africa it was sort of the norm, but certainly probably about half at least of our school would go to the UK and and spend a couple of years working in the UK.
We could get a visa and it'd be cool for travel and and some British pounds and go and I definitely had this vision of driving around the the British countryside.Being James Harriet, basically the reality of it is can't be quite shocking.It's really cold for a start.
All those fun things that he does on a snowy night that that's less fun at the moment.But yeah, I think a lot of us were influenced by that.So then.It was wet and you were going to do horses.You liked the horse thing.You were going to fly around because you had you could fly, you had your plane, your airplane license, and you had this vision of being the flying horse, flying around the country, fixing horses, and then you were hit by a car.
That right, you're in a in a vehicle accident.Yeah, I was gone out to a late night movie with a friend of mine and this is back before the days of seatbelts and as we were driving home it was 2 in the morning.It was a midnight movie.I kind of jokingly said put on your seat belt because all the people on the road at this time and night are drunk And she said oh I hate seatbelts and said hey humor me, just put on your seat belt.
So we were driving home and a young kid underage was drunk and driving and drag racing with a friend and lost control of his van and rear-ended.My Volkswagen sent me down the road in a ball of fire, and without that seat belt, I I wouldn't be here talking to you today.
Wow.So that kind of changes everything from that point on. 11 surgeries and a year later, I just didn't have the strength to work with horses anymore, So I started working on another species.Wow.So took us through that, that period post injury, realizing that the thing, the dream you had, the plan I had, is no longer going to fly.
It's not going to work for me.Yeah, I mean, it was dark.I mean, everything I had done up to that point in my career was horses.And he got my undergraduate degree in animal science, my graduate degree in animal behavior with an emphasis on equine behavior.I put myself through high school, college, Graduate School as a blacksmith, and I had every intention in the world to become a, you know, an equine surgeon.
And so when all that was taken away from me, it was like, why?You know, I put all this work and energy into all of this, and now I can't do it anymore.And so it was, it was pretty dark.There were some days that I had some.I had some difficulty getting up.There were days.And I didn't think I want even finish the day.
And I even remember one time coming back from one of my many surgeries, aiming my car right at the center median on the freeway, thinking that this, this is it.I'm done with this.And some Angel jumped in there at the last minute and I steered away and I didn't hit it.And I'm still here 40 years later.
But, you know, there were two things that I always told myself.One is I would never work on small animals.And two, I.Never live in a city and what did I end up doing?Finished my residency and I moved to Los Angeles and bought a small Animal Hospital.So you just have to be flexible.Residency in what?
What residency were you doing?I did my residency in primate and zoo medicine when I was in veterinary school.When I was recovering from the the car accident, I started volunteering in the zoo ward because I like the creepy crawls and the slimies and the word stuff.And as I did all the volunteer time in the zoo ward, you know, I realized, hey, if I got to work on a zoo.
Which is kind of like a horse, You know, they're sedated or you have help.I don't have to do this by myself anymore.I don't have to be the cowboy.I didn't have the strength for it.If you could see me, you could see I'm.I'm literally covered with scars.I've had over 20 surgeries, 6 spinal surgeries and, you know, just all sorts of stuff.
Putting me back together again and completely forgot where we were talking about.No, no, I was just trying to.Orientators in time.So the accident was while you were still at vet school or post or and then and then the pivot from before was before.OK, all right.
So you hadn't actually started, right?Vet school, OK.Yeah so the the the the accident occurred after Graduate School and I was volunteering at the vet school in the equine ward.I was doing a lot of work as a pre vet trying to get experience, get to get people to know my face and then the accident occurred.
So after I was able to go.Back and do physical things, which is multiple surgeries.Later I started volunteering in the zoo ward and that's when I realized, hey, this is pretty interesting.I can still keep my passion and I can still be a veterinarian, but just not work with horses.
I work with the the exotic animals and.When I did get into veterinary school, this was right about the time that they discovered the AIDS virus, and that was in the early 80s.And through my connections in the zoo ward, I ended up getting a weekend job working at the Primate center in California, and it just so happens I worked for the veterinarian.
That discovered the simian or the monkey AIDS virus, which is very similar to the human AIDS virus.In fact, they use the simian AIDS virus as a model to study human AIDS, and so I worked in his lab.And I did that for a couple years and we became very good friends.
And the interesting thing about it was that he loved rattlesnakes.He loves snakes in general.And there is a blood test called the humid glutination inhibition test that you can use to test for viruses.And he wanted to get some fresh rattlesnake blood so that he could use the fresh red cells to test for the AIDS virus and the monkeys so that he could develop a test for AIDS virus in humans.
And he goes, I just, I've checked all my outlets and I just, I can't find.Any place where I can go out and buy rattlesnake blood and I kind of, you know, as a vet student sitting in the back of the room, keep in mind this, this virologist was.Just huge.I mean he's just world renowned, unbelievably brilliant and he's one of those people that is a young student.
You don't talk to him and let's say talk to you first.So I sheepishly raised up my hand and I said if you want rattlesnake cells, I can, I can get you rattlesnake cells.Just tell me how much you need.And he looked at me and he said how are you going to get rattlesnake cells?I said I'll just drive up to the mountains and catch a rattlesnake and get some blood and let it go.
And he looked at me and he goes, you can do that.And I said yeah, I can do that and he goes, can I go with you?And I said, what, you want to go with him?And he goes, I love snakes.That's Jerry can go with me.So I took him up to the mountains and we spent the day catching snakes.We'd catch him, we'd draw blood, we'd preserve the blood, let the snake go, didn't hurt the snakes at all.
And then we were able to go back to the, the Science Center and he used the cells and he helped.That was part of the process of learning how to make diagnostic tests for AIDS.So anyway, the the bottom line is that when I finished my veterinary program, he came to me and he said I'd like you to do a residency with.
With me here at the primate center, I want to keep you on.And so the residency was part primates and part zoos.So I agreed to do that, which is really rare because normally to do a residency you have to do an internship first.And I had not done an internship yet.I had planned on doing an internship and then going back and applying, and he really wanted me to stay on the team.
So he pulled some strings and I went right from veterinary school into my residency program.And then I ended up doing the primates in the zoos.And that's how I kind of.Switched over from dogs and cats in school to the creepy crawlies and the exotics.Wow, that's a good story.
I like that it was.Hang on, how did you know how to catch rattlesnakes and take blood from them at that stage?Was it just from your childhood messing around with your brother, with snakes or or where you just?Yeah, I mean, pretty much like I said, we grew up, yeah, pretty, you know, we grew up traipsing around the mangrove swamps and we would catch the cottonmouths and he would teach me how to catch them and handle them.
And then I don't know if you remember him because.He was an American herpetologist named Bill Hawes.He had this facility called the Serpentarium in Miami, which was just 20 minutes away from my house.And whenever I could get a chance I'd catch the bus or I'd go with a friend or maybe my parents would drive me in and we would go and watch his snake shows and he would catch the rattlesnakes and then milk them to make anti venom.
So I watched him do it as a zillion times and then as I as I got older and I was in Graduate School and college, I've always liked them and.And even though I was doing all the horsework, the snakes were always just kind of a fun passion.And I got to know people who raised them and they taught me how to do it.
So I was very comfortable handling these animals.OK, comes back to that late teenage early 20s male.The death wish that we have.I want to play with snakes.Yeah, quick pause for a bit of housekeeping about upcoming events.
I've been dusting off my snow gear and I've bought some remote recording equipment for the upcoming vets onto a conference in Wanaka, New Zealand.I have a goal to record a podcast in the snow.We'll make that one a video one, I think, and I've got a choice selection from the speakers.I can do leadership stuff, more palliative care with Doctor Shea from episode 94 or Oncology.
Or I can just pick any of the attendees who'll be joining us at the conference.You should be one of those attendees.There's still 5 spots left for any latecomers.So if you're feeling the need of some education, inspiration and fun, check out the link in the show description or Google vets on tour that is 13th to 18th of August.
And for our US listeners or anyone who's feeling adventurous, I'll be at the International Veterinary Emergency and Critical Care Societies Conference in Denver, Co from 11 to 13th September, sitting down with some of the smartest people in the land of ECC to dig deeper into their topics of expertise.
My biggest concern is how to choose because it's an absolute epic list of topics and speakers.So come and say hi and if you have any advice for where to go and what to do in Colorado after the conference, please let me know.OK, back to Dr. Doug.So Doug, then you do this residency, which gives you quite a unique skill set, and then the next thing you.
By a small animal practice in Los Angeles.How, why, How?To me, it feels like the natural progression from that residency would be academia.Or, you know, there's a hundred things that you could do.Why a smallest practice in the city?When I finished the residency researcher on AIDS was in his heyday.
And so to have a primate residency and to have my resume with all of this AIDS research on my CV.I could have written my ticket anywhere, and in fact I was offered jobs all over the country and I was even offered a job at the New York blood bank in Liberia that paid an ungodly amount of American money in Africa.
So all of it was tax free, but everything came with a risk and I.I had just gotten married.And if I had taken the job in Liberia, I was told I couldn't bring my wife with me.They said it was too dangerous.And you know, faced with student debts and hospital debts because I was still paying off my surgery costs.
You know, we we talked about it and it was a two year contract.And she said, Oh yeah, you know, why don't you go, I'll be fine for two years and when you get back, you'll have some money in the bank.We can pay off our debts.We'll have money to buy a house.And thought about it, thought about it, thought about.And I said, you know.I don't want to do it.I'm just not going to take this job.
And I didn't know what would have happened.But as it turned out, I turned down that job in Liberia, and the veterinarian that they hired in my place two weeks later was killed.He was ambushed and killed.Because that was right there in the height of their civil war.So I don't know.Again, another chance I may not be here talking today had I taken that job.
Anyway, I was offered several jobs in research and research to me is extremely important.It's a subject for another podcast, but I did not like the concept of.Working with all of these primates and then giving them AIDS and watching them die.
I know it's important, but I had a hard time with it.So then I started looking at zoo jobs and especially back then.Keep in mind this is 1986.To give you an example, one of the zoo jobs that I was offered started at $11,000 a year.And so, you know, it's kind of hard when you have all these medical debts and student debts and you just get married to take a job for $11,000 a year.
And they even told me, they said, well, you know, you can work on the weekend at the Spay clinic and make a couple extra $100, you know, on the weekends.And I'm going out.I already work 60-70 hours a week.I don't know if I want to do that.So a friend of mine, a good friend of mine, worked in a private practice and we figured, you know, why don't we just buy our own practice and then we can start doing, we can start seeing exotic.
Because very few veterinarians back then did exotic animal medicine in private practice, there were only one or two schools that even allowed students to study exotics.And as it turned out, where we ended up buying our practice, we were only about. 20 minutes away from a small zoo called the Santa Ana Zoo And the Santa Ana Zoo is has one of the largest primate collections in the entire country.
And so it was a perfect fit.So I had my private practice and then just a very short short distance away I had my zoo, the zoo work that I loved and it was all primate work.So everything, all the stars lined up.That you kind of made them line up though I I like your decision making process because there's two factors there there's there's practicalities that you had to consider.
So your stuff like physical injury money, you know, that's a practicality.You have to keep that in mind.But then your decision making is all tempered throughout the story by your values.So yeah, the practicality of making a heap of money in Liberia makes a lot of sense, but it clashed with your values.
So you you go with where your values take you.I don't want to be away from my my wife.I'm assuming that that was a big driver to say, well, my values are relationship, so that's that's important.So the stars lined up, but they lined up because you knew because you had a sort of a star that you were following, it sounds like to me.
Well, you it's a combination of several factors.I mean, I'm sure luck, luck played a role in it, but what's the saying?Chance favors of prepared mind and certainly doing your homework?Making sure that these places were available.Like I knew about that zoo, and we knew that when we looked for a place to buy a hospital in Southern California, I wanted to be somewhere near that zoo where I could do some work with the primate collection.
So I mean it, you know, there were a lot of factors floating around and it was just a function of getting them all to line up.So now you're the owner of a small Animal Hospital.Doing doing some of the the stuff that you're passionate about the reptiles and the primates and that how does that reality stack up to what you pictured And and also put us in the picture because I know from your book the the clinic was called Noah's ark.
Is that right?Is that why the book is called the vet from Noah's ark?Yeah.Put us in the picture of the area Los Angeles in that time because it sounds like it was quite an exciting what a what a unique time in place.Well, you know, I, you brought up the point and I brought it up.
You know, money was an issue.We couldn't if my partner and I couldn't afford to just go out and start our own practice and we needed to buy an existing practice.So we knew we would have an income stream we wanted.We limited our geographic area to Southern California near the beach and I wanted to be close enough to this zoo that would be within a reasonable amount of time driving.
Keep in mind in California on the freeways, 5 miles can be an hour.And so we ended up finding a I mean there were some beautiful.Practices, absolutely gorgeous practices and very affluent neighborhoods.But prices that we couldn't even come close to affording.So we ended up finding this practice that had been on the market for a couple years, and once we got there, we realized why.
And that's because it was over 80 years old.It was a dump, it didn't have a parking lot, and it was in just about the worst part of town you could possibly ask for.And it was so dangerous that, and again, since there's no parking lot, you'd have to park on side streets.Walking to your car at night was taking taking your life in your own hands.
But we took the attitude that some of the best restaurants are in the worst parts of town.And so we figured, OK, we're going to make it work and we're going to do everything we can to make this the best vet hospital around, even though it's in a bad part of town.And I know we lost clients because they would come to us once and they would experience what it was like to park the car, especially if it had a late afternoon appointment and they had to walk back to their car.
After dark and by the way, we always sent somebody with them.We never let them walk alone.So it it was, it was very interesting.But you know, you make it work, right?I mean, you you play the cards you dealt.Yeah, yeah.It's funny.They when they talk about real estate, they talk about by the worst house that you can afford in the the worst house in the best neighborhood.
But you guys wait for the the worst house in the worst house in the worst neighborhood as well and then aim to make it into the best one.I said we wanted to buy something with an income stream, but the place was in such disarray and it was such a mess that we had to do massive remodeling immediately when we moved in, and so both of us.
There wasn't enough business for both of us to work full time.So one of us would work full time, one of us would work part time, and then whoever was working part time would work at an emergency clinic on the weekends.And then we pretty much lived on the salary that the other person was making.And then any money we made in the clinic, we just poured back into the clinic, like to put in new floors, new walls, you know, new equipment, like an anesthesia machine, an X-ray machine.
So we just basically worked and worked and worked and put all the money for the first year back into the clinic to make it into a nice.Facility.I'm interested in the that danger element.See, I'm because I'm from South Africa.That's so notoriously heavy on the on the crime and the violence stuff I often have the temptation to think of anywhere else is like, God, it can't be that bad.
But from what you described it sounds pretty full on what what was happening?Was it why was it so dangerous?Was it just poor socioeconomic area or what sort of stuff was happening?It it was.It was.It was an interesting, really interesting location because it was not too far from the beach, but it was right on the cusp between probably the poorest part of the city and two blocks in the other direction, one of the most affluent areas.
Because that's where all the the houses were, right on the coast.And to give you, for instance.At that time, the governor of California was named George Dick Majin, and he and his wife were clients of ours.And so his wife would come in and her fancy Cadillac with her cat and sitting one chair away would be a family from the poor side of the tracks that could barely afford shoes for their children's feet.
I mean, so literally we had the whole spectrum of clients from extreme poverty that the major affluence and it made for a real colorful, you know, a real colorful background and obviously.A lot of good stories came out of it.And I think, you know, one of the things that's really important to point out to your listeners, and that is the money isn't a deciding factor.
The human animal bond doesn't care.That human animal bond is so powerful, it doesn't matter if you are the governor of California or you know, you can barely, you're maybe getting food stamps when you love that pet.And that pet is everything in the world to you.You do everything you can to try and help it.
And for me, one of my driving factors has always been the human animal bond.And even before I knew it, you know, before Leo abuse, Dad coined the term human animal bond.I knew that there was something special there and that was.That's always been my motivation to get out of bed in the morning and start my day because I want to do everything I can to keep that bond strong and alive and and last as long as possible.
And you know, again sometimes.The client gives you the the Platinum American Express card.Sometime the client comes in and goes, I can give you $5 a week and but I promise you I'll pay it off.So I haven't always made the best business decisions and I'm sure, I'm sure I've been stiff thousands and thousands of dollars.
But you know what?The bottom line for me, I'm doing everything I can.I was put on this earth for a reason, and I've been able to use those talents to help that human animal bond.And yeah, again, sometimes, more than often, I didn't get paid, but I did the right thing.It's such a big topic, Doug and it is such a source of I think internal and moral tension and conflict for so, so many of us because there is that that bond that we again, the reason we get into it is because that matters to us and but when then we also do want to not.
And in Australia we have a term of battler, somebody who's continuously just battling life and never getting anywhere.You don't want to be the battler financially or it would be nice to have a nice lifestyle and live like other professionals and finding that balance.I've certainly struggled.
I've owned a business as well where where the money starts matching it.You certainly much more aware of what's coming in and what's going out and going well We how nice are you How far do you take it?Like I saw a quote of yours in the story of one of your your doctor's dog attacking another little dog and again big big drama.
We won't go down the whole story but you had a quote there that said I live in a small town so I could not and would never turn away an injured pet.That's a big statement because sometimes we are faced.I ran an emergency clinic in Perth in WA and that thing to go was I can't, I can't.
It's my personal money or it's the staff that need to get paid or something.It's their $10,000 and you don't have the money.But I want to help you.Like, how have you dealt with that over the years?How do you, how do you draw that line?When do you say no, I actually can't help you.
It's your responsibility.It's not my responsibility.This is a business as well as a.An animal care facility.Sometimes you have to be the hard ass and you have to play that because you know that sadly there are people out there that will try and work you and I've never turned anybody away.
If they make it, if they are willing to make some kind of an effort and I'm seriously, I'm even like 5 bucks a week, you know, you show me that you're willing to make some kind of an effort, put it in writing.I will do everything I can.Vast, majority of those times.You know, I never saw the payments after a couple weeks.
And of course if the patient were to die, and as we both know, the reality is not all of our patients live, then you never see the money.But you know what?Right here in my heart, I know I did the right thing.Where I live right now, you know, I went from LA to now I live.I, when I moved back to the Florida Keys where I was born, and my wife and I have had a big practice on a very small island.
And you, you, you really pretty much know everybody.When you've lived here for a while and you can't turn people away for two reasons.One is if you turn it away because of the coconut Telegraph, that's what they used to call it.Now it's called the Internet.You know, everybody knows all Mater just wants.
He's only in it for the money, which has never been the case with me or my wife.We're in it for the animals, you know, you want to help people.And we had a horrible, horrible hurricane a few years back and.Man, it it, it really hurt you to watch people suffer.I mean, people lost everything.
We lost everything too.But we kept our business.Our business didn't get damaged.It was a brand new building.But a lot of people lost their bit, their homes, they lost their jobs, their pets still get sick.They still need to be treated.You know darn well that they can't afford to pay you, but you can't turn them away.You know?That's what community is all about.
You got to be there to help them out.And I think about how many thousands and thousands of dollars of services I gave away, I don't even care.And I really don't think about it, because I did the right thing.And these people were at a time when they needed the help.And my wife and I were in a position where we could offer that kind of help.
And if it meant we didn't take a paycheck, then we didn't take a paycheck just to make sure that our our employees did get their paychecks.How do you stop those sort of experiences?Because they we talk about the human animal bond.There's a relationship, human, animal and sometimes the one part of that relationship, the human.
Can be the problem.So when we talk about money or even about just level of care or you know, it's because I, I I definitely feel that there are some people who come in and they're genuine and they don't have money but they they trying and they good people.But then there's a fair few who you get the impression are really just there to, as you say to try and pull it pull the one over your eyes and abuse your services and make you feel guilty because they don't want to pay or they don't want to take responsibility.
And what I've experienced and what I see a lot is.That's a slow creep of resentment and a cynicism towards humans in the veteran profession.To go, animals are great, people suck, which is a very tough thing to live with because there's a lot of it to have that.
I mean, you get that attitude of people just suck they into animals, they don't care that I want to pay.And we focus on that and we forget about all the really lovely people who we deal with every day.But have you ever experienced that, that cynicism of going, I wish I could just treat animals and not deal with the human component or.
Or if not, how not?How do you?Managed to get this funny career with all of those sort of stories and not become resentful of your clients.I've always put the animal first.I think that human animal bond is extremely important.And then that, you know, they talk about the triad of the doctor paint patient client relationship and I think relationships are extremely important too.
And God, I mean, honestly, over the years there haven't been that many that have made me so upset where I've just wanted to take him out in the parking lot and punch their lights out.Now there have been a few.And I I talked about a couple of those in my book and you can't help that because you know you're not, you're not dealing with the client.
At least from my perspective.I'm not dealing with the client on a person to person basis.I'm dealing with the client because I'm sticking up for the animal and I've always been the type that wants to stand up for the underdog and underdog under cat, under snake, whatever you want to call it.I mean, if if the owner is being a jerk and they're not taking care of the animal just because they're being a jerk, usually what I'll end up doing is I'll offer to to take the pet.
I'd say listen.It to me, I'll take care of it.I'll pay for everything and then I'll find it at home.If they don't want to do that, I'll say listen, you know basically you made the effort to come here.You've been given many options.I've.I've exhausted all the possibilities.If you don't take care of this pet.Now we're talking about talking about abuse and I says I I do feel a duty to call animal control and and have them do a welfare check.
And oftentimes that'll shake them up pretty good.Usually I'm able to words with my way around most of these things and it's it's I've been very fortunate that I'm aware of the vast majority of the patients.If you treat people with respect, even the ones that are not the nicest people eventually will come around.
And then then you get some of those people that like to be slapped around a little bit.You know, you're being rude and you're disrespecting your pet and you don't deserve to have one.I'm sorry, Doctor.I'll do whatever you tell me.Yeah, I I have a comment and it's something I'm it's a theory I'm developing because you'll comment there that you say there's been very few people who you've wanted to take.
You got so angry that you wanted to go and punch their lights out in the parking lot.There'll be a lot of events who will disagree and say oh that happens twice a day.There's somebody who makes me that angry and and I do wonder if it is a little bit and some people might get upset by this but if you go to work working with people with that antagonistic attitude of.
Okay.This is going to be a day of fighting.I'm going to have to be really mentally tough.I'm going to argue with people all day.I think that comes through in how you interact with people and then you it it you sort of bring it on yourself.And I don't mean it in an ugly way that you deserve what you get, but people sense that.
Whereas I feel with with your attitude of look, I'm here for the animal, I'm not here to fight with you.I just want to help.And that's recognized almost subconsciously.People recognize that and go okay.I I can be as reasonable as possible because this guy is here to help me somehow.Do you find, do you agree with that you think that's there's some relevance in that?
I do.And you know the vast majority of times, and I've ever gotten so mad with a person that I wanted to take him outside in in Donnybrook with them, it's usually over something that they've done that is so disrespectful.And oftentimes it's to my staff, respectful to my staff.
You know, they mistreated A receptionist or they are rude to one of my assistants.Or to one of my younger doctors, I will immediately and always go and stick up for them.And if they get in my face I don't back down.I I will always stick up for the animals too.But usually it's never been a problem.
The point where it's turned into a situation where I mean, I literally wanted to take them outside and and all in almost 40 years, I've only ever done that once and there was this guy that he.He used some words with one of my receptionists that I would never repeat ever.
And she she came back to me crying and I had her.I said okay, just stay back here.I will go up and deal with him.I took the records.I stopped by the copy machine and made copies.I walked to him, I handed him his records and I said I'm not able to help you today.
And he started yelling at me and I says, you know what, I don't let anybody treat my staff that way.I said if you have something to say then you should say it to me and not to them.He goes, well then.If you feel that way then let's go outside and said listen, I said okay, fine.So I took off my stethoscope, I took off my watch and I started to walk outside with him and we get outside and then the color drains from his face.
I don't think he was expecting me to follow him outside.And as soon as I got outside I realized, you know, if I touched this guy, my career is over.All it's got to do is get in the newspaper that you know, veterinarian beats up distraught pet owner.It's like that's not what happened.The guy was a jerk and he was mean and disrespectful.
To my staff, but it would never that would never come out that way in the paper.But just walking outside with him was enough to make him realize that what he did was totally inappropriate.Fortunately, his pet was fine.It it only needed something like a toenail trim or something.I was I would never have chased the pet out if it was in trouble.
About three days later he came back in with flowers and he apologized to the receptionist.So it all worked out.Yeah, there's a challenging situation.And it actually comes to comes to that.First of all I'd have to ask you said the word donnybrook, take somebody outside and donnybrook with them.
I've never heard that term before.Does that is that another?Word.First physical, but did you say Donnybrook?I know that's just another word for fisticuffs.Never heard there's a town in WA called Donnybrook, which makes me wonder which.Why?Well, maybe that's where it started.
I.Don't know oh.That time in LA with the practice thing, first of all, we talk about the upper class clients.I read somewhere that you saw you treated Michael Jackson's pet pets or an animal of his or something like that.Is that accurate?He was a a pretty amazing fellow.
He had Neverland Ranch which is 3000 acres and of that 3000 acres he had 300 acres that he had turned into like a a miniature Disneyland because he was he was a kid at heart and he loved Disneyland.So his whole living area, he had literally a steam locomotive.
He had his own zoo.He had a like a Ferris wheel and merry go rounds and.And he had.The whole thing was his fantasy land.And he had a veterinarian that was his zoo vet.And I met him because one of his snakes called Anita, was 21 foot long.
Python got very sick and the zoo vet didn't feel comfortable treating it.So he had his keeper bring the snake down to my hospital, which was a few hours away.And that's How I Met him.And then I started doing a lot of his reptile work for him.And I did that for about 3 years.
So very interesting, very interesting character he really was.And boy, he loved animals and obviously, you know, money was never an issue with him, so I never had to worry about having a donnybrook.I recommend that he was happy to do it.You could have had a dance battle with him if you ever had any confidence, suspect you would have lost in your book.
There's quite a lot of stuff going on in that time, really.Yeah, a fair amount of violence and somebody, somebody was killed in the practice.Stuff like that.Like it was it was in the midst of all the normal veteran stuff.There's a lot of other stuff going on as well.You know, the whole story is the story arc is about the year.
I decided to sit for my first set of specialty boards, and it takes a year to submit all of your paperwork, get accepted, study for, and then take this rigorous test.And so the book starts basically with me submitting my application, and then it's about how I try and ink out some private time to study while running this practice in the middle of a big urban area.
And then it ends with me finding out that I passed the test, which was a big accomplishment.I was very proud of myself for doing it because it was quite arduous.But it just so happened to coincide with the year of the Rodney King riots.Now, many of your listeners may not even have been born during that time, but the sad thing is, is that.
But it for those of you that aren't familiar with it, a black motorist was pulled over by some white cops in Los Angeles, and mercilessly they just beat the crap out of him.And they were.I don't remember how many.I think there were 16 altogether that beat this motorist up.
And it was before the days of cell phones and videos, but people had video cameras and there was a a guy in an apartment nearby that heard the commotion and went outside with his camcorder, and he videoed the whole thing.The next day he sent it.To one of the local news stations and it went viral and it just created a horrible situation with this, this violence.
And the sad thing is that you take away the year 1992, you take away the name Rodney King and what we saw back then is still happening all over the country and it could be anywhere USA and because.Of that situation the the tension in the city amongst many of the different cultures was extremely high and also living in the inner city there was a lot of drugs and a lot of gangs.
So the combination of all those different factors that made it a very dangerous place to live.Now when the the riots finally erupted post the trial when the police officers that did the beating got off, one of my employees was stabbed right out in front of the hospital and one of my I don't I.
To be a spoiler for people, I haven't read the book, but one of my clients was killed, so it was, you know, it really hit home.So you've got the challenges of challenges that we're all familiar with, of running a vet practice and great stories, but also sometimes some tough things to deal with in your in your career.
And then surrounding that.There's a lot of other stuff happening as well that adds to that tension.Kind of traumatic stuff happening, right?Yeah, I mean, that's all stuff they don't teach in vet school.Yeah, that's what I want to dig into because I in doing this podcast, I've come across the term.
And it's also just in the popular vernacular these days.People talk about trauma, traumatic things happening, and they talk about major traumatic things like like a client getting killed versus small little multiple traumas.And I'm, I'm always wary of not turning everything into a drama like.
Not saying well cuz small everyday happening or something going wrong is a traumatic event.But I also don't want to discount it and say well look let just soldier on these these things have happened but stiff up a little tough and toughen up.Just carry on and leave it unacknowledged.Which is my understanding is that stat attitude that eventually leads to the stuff that we hear about all the time in that profession.
The you know, compassion fatigue, the.Burn out all all those sort of things.Have you personally experienced it or in your team that you ran, especially during that time?Is that is that something that came up for you guys is dealing with minor or major traumatic events and getting somebody through that or potentially losing staff members to the profession.
I don't mean they're passing away or something.Is is that something that you've dealt with over your career do you think?Well, yeah, Hugh, in 40 years I've, you know I've seen quite a bit and sadly I, I have had colleagues, classmates, employees and colleagues all you know commit suicide and it's it's always tough because you always wonder is this something I should have seen coming, is there something are there warning signs and could I have done more.
And then you kind of internalize it and then you start feeling guilty and it it is a real challenge and.You know, one of the things that I always try to teach people is that we don't live in a fantasy world.We live in a real world and bad stuff happens.
You know, you might be lucky and have an entire life and an entire career and have nothing but silver spoons in your mouth.It's not.Doesn't happen very often or you might be one of those people that always tends to get dealt cards from the bottom of the deck.The reality is every once in a while you're going to get dealt a bad hand.
And I think what people need to do and what I try and share with my students and my young doctors is that count on it.You know it's going to happen, Hugh.You're going to have a bad day sometime.And what you need to do is you need to be prepared.And there's a couple examples I give.
The short and dirty example is I'm sure you've been on an airplane and every time you get on the plane, the cabinet attendants give you the safety talk.And they say if the plane depressurizes and the oxygen masks fall down, put yours on 1st and then help the others around you.So you should have a plan.You're going to have a bad day.
You know it's going to happen.You're going to lose a patient.You're going to have a client blow up at you.You're going to have a an employee get mad and sue you or you know, maybe a client may take you to the state board.You're going to have a bad day.It's going to happen and know it's going to happen and prepare for it.
And again, the the longer example that I give is I live on an island in the Caribbean.We lost our house to a a horrible hurricane five years ago.When I say we lost our house, I don't just mean an umbrella and a beach chair flew away, I mean.We lost our house.Everything we owned, everything was gone.
But we were prepared and so did it make it easy?Hell no.It was.It sucked, you know, except we got through it.I've got a great wife and we make a great team and we're able to support each other.You plan ahead and you okay.What are the possibilities?What are the potential outcomes?
How are we going to deal with this, this and this?And what if we do this and it doesn't work?How are we going to do this?And what I tell people is.Especially the young doctors and the students is you are going to have a bad day.You're going to lose a patient.You're going to have a client mad at you.You're going to have a fight with a coworker and be prepared.
What are you going to do?Where is your happy place?Have your circle of friends be there, and if they ever need you, you can be there to support them.And if you have that bad day, don't be afraid to reach out and they'll be there to support you.And you should never feel guilty.For asking for help.
Because we all need it, you know, Even Superman needs it every once in a while.And I think if you're prepared, you know, if you're prepared to psych insurance, you're prepared.If you have insurance and you never need it, yeah, you're spending money, but you don't need it.You lucked out.But if you do need it, you've got it there.So if you take time to prepare for that bad day, when that bad day comes, it's still going to be a bad day, but you have a much better chance of getting through it on the other side and not signing off.
You know you use by date won't won't be done, and I really think it's important that you make that effort to surround yourself with a support network and you need to be there for them just like they need to and they will be there for you.So so your preparation for the Hurricanes of life as a veterinarian, the metaphorical hurricanes is that the support network if you if I, if I said to you, how do you prepare for those bad days you because you keep referring to people you can count on is that the the crux of it.
Well you know, I mean I've got I'm, I'm very fortunate that I have an absolutely wonderful wife.She's also a veterinarian.We're we're best friends and we get we get each other through very difficult times.But we also have a very good set of friends.I have veterinary friends and I have non veterinary friends and it was amazing to me after the hurricane.
Our building that our hospital was built for a category 5.So after the hurricane we lost our house, several of my employees lost their homes and we all moved into the hospital.We basically each took an exam room and that was our apartment for several months until we were able to kind of get our feedback on the ground and we all took care of each other and.
You know, I'm I'm fortunate that after doing this for many decades, I do have a little bit of money in my savings account and a lot of my young employees, they don't.They still have student debts and some of the entry level employees, the assistants and people like that, you know it, they live paycheck to paycheck.
And so we were able to help them out and again by working together and having a good support structure, it was amazing.You can get through the tough times.It can be done do.You think you're inherently resilient and optimistic, Doug?Because it's it's tough because I do.
I have lots of conversations on here and often it tends to be people who do well.They get through life.And I often wonder, is it something that you that you were born with, was it something that you've worked on that you get better with?So basically people who listen to this who go, I really struggle with those things.Is that just me or can I get better at it?
That's a good question.You I think.I think most.When you've had a life or death experience, and I've sadly had a few, it changes your perspective on life.I look at things differently and I don't quit.I've never, I've never quit.I've never said no.I don't take no for an answer.I don't believe in the word can't, because if you run into a brick wall, you find the edge and you walk around it, you know, or you climb over to you dig under it, there's if you want to make it happen, you're going to make it happen.
If you're the kind of person that's a quitter, then yeah, you're going to be disappointed.But I think.I think it's just really important to to be.I'm very goal oriented and I do what it takes to get to that goal and I don't.I don't give up until I get where I want to be.
You mentioned the life and death experience and the perspective change.Did you think that car accident early on?Do you think that changed you in a good way in the long run?Oh, absolutely.Absolutely.I mean, I don't celebrate my birthday anymore.I celebrate my, what I call the Second Chance Day.
So every year I celebrate the day that I was in the accident and I was able to walk away from it.The day you didn't die.The day I didn't die.Which is every day, isn't it?It truly is every day.And I think you have to realize, like you know, people like you, you know, I'm glad you're in my life now and I thank you for that.
And it's important that you take the time to let people that you care about know that because you may not be able to see, you may never see him again.And I I don't take tomorrow for granted anymore.And that's something I learned a long time ago.That's great.That's really is a is a privilege to to have this conversation.We should probably start heading towards the wrap up questions.
I could speak to you forever.I'm going to have to come and visit you in Florida.Oh, doors always open, my friend.I have a new house now.You have a new house.So I even have a guest room.You can come and stay here.How long ago was that?What what year was the hurricane that you lost the house?
It was September 10th, 2017.So before we move on, actually I I'm still curious about because you've had several episodes of being really broken down, knocked down physically in all these instances.There must be And you talk about post the accident when you thought about driving it to the the middle of the road or crashing your car.
How do you get up from that?Self pity.First of all of going well, poor me.Why me has this?Why did this happen to me?To to moving to the next?Chapter.The first thing that that strikes me is I'm still here and there are so many people that have so there's so much worse off than I am.
I have no business to whine and complain.You know, I mean, one of my best friends is battling cancer right now.And OK, so I have had 5-6 spinal surgeries and I hurt like hell every morning when I wake up, but I'm still alive and I don't have to go to radiation therapy every day.So I try and find the positive, the silver lining on every dark cloud and there always is 1.
Sometimes you have to look really hard.Sometimes you have to wait for the sun to come out, but it's there.And I just think, I don't know, I have too many things that I want to do and too many animals that I want to help and too many people that I want to make happy and I'm just not ready, you know, my.Used by date, I I can.
I know it's on my the plastic bag that surrounds me, but I'm not ready to cash it in yet.Like that.So what's the next chapter?Literally, if you had to write book two, So book one was set in that Los Angeles period.Well, book two is on its way.
How is it?Oh, really?Yeah, Book two is on its way.Yeah, it's.So book two also is in Los Angeles and it starts with Jurassic Park.You remember that movie when it.Came out.Oh yeah, of course.So after I got board certified, it was right about the time Jurassic Park came out.Everybody runs out and buys a pet dinosaur and it was amazing.
As soon as I got board certified, my reputation just shot through the roof.And then I started getting all these phone calls and picked up all these celebrity clients so that the second book will I'll have a lot of celebrity clients in there that have some amazing stories on their own.Third book is when I moved to the Florida Keys and then the 4th book, it will be the year of their.
Big hurricane.So I I'm trying to follow in the footsteps of James Harriet.He had a series of four.So that's always been my goal is to write a book like James Harriet.And I think the biggest honor and the biggest compliment that I've received to date since the book has come out is a lot of the literary critics are calling the book the first James Harriet since All Creatures Great and Small, the first American James Harriet.
So to me that's the ultimate compliment.That's a great compliment.Well done.That's that's something to be proud of.I don't even know.Thank you.So when you talk about the Florida Keys.Chapter.That's the current chapter, right?That's where we are, where you have been for.No, that's that's where I live now, but that's the third book.Yeah, it's the third book, so.
So are you still that's.Where I live now?Are you still practicing?Do you own a practice there still or what's your what's your current life look like?That sold we, my wife and I bought a small one doctor practice when we moved here in 97 and we turned it into a massive. 10 doctor emergency referral hospital.
See, I live on an archipelago.I have 43 islands connected by 42 bridges stretched out over about 180 kilometers and so the hospital is right smack dab in the middle.So we were the only 24 hour emergency specialty hospital in the entire island chain and we did that for about 25 years.
I sold that two years ago.Now I'm I've just got to have about 1/2 a dozen zoo and wildlife clients and I volunteer my time, do a lot of volunteer work for.Like US Fish and Wildlife and I take care of the endangered Key deer.I do a lot of work for the USGS and take care of the crocodiles because they're they're an endangered species that we have here in South Florida.
And this is all stuff that just makes me feel good because I'm giving back to the community and I'm giving back to nature and then, for instance, I'm starting.When I was born in the Keys, I used to go to the Zoo Miami, which was at the time called the Miami Zoo, and it was like one of my favorite places in the world.
And here, 60 or 50 years later, I'm helping them start a new sea turtle rehabilitation program.So I'm keeping myself really busy.Between that and writing the second book and then doing book promo tours.I'm still probably working 50-60 hours a week, but I love what I do and I always have loved what I do.
And what do they tell you?If you like what you do, it's not work.That's exactly right.It's just literally read a book that yesterday finished the book that emphasized that point again.Find way to find a way to do the things that lights you up as it clearly does you, and then it's not work.
Then then the only problem is taking some time off because all you want to do is work because you love it so much.That's true.I have been extremely, extremely fortunate in my career because of my background that I've been invited to lecture literally all around the world.
I I mentioned before we went on the air that I actually even taught a class to veterinarians in Antarctica.And so my my wife, she's my, I say my, you know, my life partner, my best friend and and we travel, we've been to Antarctica, we've been to the North Pole, we've been in top of Kilimanjaro, we've been to the Galapagos, you name it, we've been everywhere except Australia.
So I've still got to get there.And been teaching veterinary medicine and I love it.Doug, let's let's move to the wrap up questions.First of all, the the past had a long question.Our previous guest asked the question he wanted me to ask our next guest which just happens to be you.You get to have a conversation with your 85 year old self and what advice does 85 year old Doug give current Doug.
Do you think?Well, I think the the way you worded it was what advice would your 90 year old self give you to your current self?And that is, do you regret working so hard?And the answer is absolutely not.Because as I said to me, it hasn't been work.
I mean back in the days of Los Angeles, you know, it was 80 hours plus per week.But I was building a career, I was building a life, I was building a reputation.I was building a database in my own head.The more I learned, the better a veterinarian I could be.And I'm the kind of person that's very goal oriented.
And no, I don't.I've never regretted working hard because it's always been something I've enjoyed doing.So absolutely not.So if I if I can live to 90 and I, you know, like a cat, I've I've burned through several of my 9 lives.But if I am to make it to 90, I'll be very proud of what I've accomplished.
So 90 year old tag's just going to say good work.Good work.I'm still around.We're still, we're still dodging with the bullets and well, well, don't keep going.That's great.Absolutely.That's really good.So your question for whoever my next guest is, what would you love like me to ask them?
Well, I'm assuming that your next guest is going to be a veterinarian.So my next question is this and it has to do with the fact, I don't know what it's like in Australia, but right now there is a dearth of veterinarians in this country.You you can't hire a veterinarian to save your life.And we're having more and more vet schools out there and the class size of all the veterinary schools is getting bigger and bigger and bigger.
So we're graduating more veterinarians every year.So where are they?So my question is do you think our profession?Is becoming a parttime profession, so if we have that many vets out there, how come we can't fill up fulltime jobs?Yeah, this is the problem with this question I asked Doug is as soon as the question gets asked, I want to talk about it, but I have to shelve it for the next conversation, yeah.
I don't mean no because I want to hear what they have to say.Yeah, I know.And I'm not allowed to ask it of you.That's the downside, because I want to know what you think.But that's, that's not that.That's against the rules, Doug.Are you a podcast listener?You're a regular.Feature on Podcast, but you listen to podcast yourself.When I get a chance, I do.
I hate to drive.And so I find out when I'm driving, the best way for me to get through the drive is I listen to podcast as I drive.So what are you listening to at the moment?I just listen to various vet podcasts usually.A clinical or non clinical staff A.Little bit of both, Yeah, a little bit of both.And I've been trying to listen to some other stuff too.
I mean, trying to learn more, working on language skills.You know, my wife is Swiss and typical Europeans.You know, she speaks 6 languages.I speak English, and I butcher Spanish, and so I'm trying to work on that.So I listen to those types of things as I'm driving.Having being married to somebody who's a polyglot is great for travel because there are very few places in this world where we go that she can't speak to somebody.
That is awesome.So do you have any favorite vet podcasts that I might have not or our listeners might not have come across?Oh wow.I mean, aside from yours, you mean?That's the right answer about that.I like Justine Lee's podcast.
She's a board certified toxicologist, Yep, and emergency veterinarian.And she really she's she has great information for veterinarians, but also for pet owners.Yeah, yeah.We've had her on the podcast actually really early on.We had the Red go on.Yeah, OK.And then our final wrap up question, Doug is you have an opportunity again because you do this quite often, but to speak to all of the veterinary new grades in the world, is there anything, any bit of advice that you'd give them that we haven't already discussed?
Just the one little nugget from Doug.There is and and it's.I'm going to use a term that's thrown around all the time and that is make sure you understand what a work life balance is.My 90 year old self asked me do I regret working so hard?You know where was my work life balance?
I love what I do so for me it wasn't work and.I worked very hard for many years, almost 40 years, when I decided to sell my practice and now I really get to enjoy this half of my life.For instance, if I travel, I fly first class.
If I go out to a restaurant, I don't mind eating in an expensive restaurant or staying in a nice hotel.I didn't need to work for a week and then take a week off and go to India and then come back to work a week later with a $300,000 school debt and a $15,000 India trip debt and say I need a raise because I can't afford to eat, so.
Careful with your work life balance.And yes, it's important to take care of yourself.Extremely important to take care of yourself, both your physical and mental health.And I think those two things tie in together.You have to be mentally strong.It helps you be physically strong.And if you are physically fit, it helps you get through the times when you're mentally exhausted.
So work life balance.Life balance.Take care of your mental state.Take care of your physical state.And if I had to do it all over again, Hugh.Oh, by the way, I didn't tell you I got into vet in Med school too.I applied to vet school four times and after not getting in the third time, the counselor at the at the vet school said you need to do something else.
And so I applied to Med school and I got in and I.You know, I said I don't want to do this.I want to be a vet.So then I'm and I applied to vet school again and I got in on the 4th try.So take care of yourself, work life balance, but keep it in perspective.Don't overdo it.
And I would do this all over again if I had to choose a profession tomorrow.If I was reborn tomorrow, I would do exactly what I did.I love veterinary medicine.I love the people.I love the animals.I love everything about it.I I couldn't see doing anything else.That's gold.So it's really insightful because there is that.
And I feel strongly about we have to take care of ourselves.That's to a large degree why we started this podcast.But the concept that I've learned over the years exactly what you say there work life balance is important but it doesn't always have to be.Every day has to be the perfectly balanced day or every week.
These periods like you have work life balance over a lifetime.But sometimes sometimes it doesn't have to be the perfect day.And when I.In my head preparing for talking to you today and thinking about the the 90 year old self coming back and talking to you, I did wonder.
I did think it's a very hard question to answer now because I don't know what's going to happen in the next 30 year.My 90 year old self might come back and say you should.I hope he says hey you should have served a little bit more and worked a little bit less but maybe he's living in a in a small.
Rubbish little house and comes back and says, hey, you should serve a bit less and work a bit harder.You can't predict where you're gonna be, that everything's gonna work out.So I like that concept of saying, yeah, balance, but also don't be afraid to work hard.That's really good.I love that.No, it'll pay off.
It looks like it for you.It really does.Thank you so, so much for your time and for what you do and for everything you bring to the profession and how you advertise it to the rest of the world.I I have this concept that I've discussed a few times on the podcast of working veteran science, specifically with heart versus doing it with fear.
And when we talked earlier about again, the the clients and the negative interactions and the money stuff we talked about.And I feel like that is you epitomize that idea.But I'm showing up with heart.In this profession, I do it for I I I use it hard because it it should be loved.When you say love, people get awkward, but it's love versus fear.
And if you approach it with the love that you do, then everything seems to go smoother versus the approach of I'm approaching it with fear.How am I?How am I not going to lose this patient?How am I not going to get sued?How am I not going to do that?It brings a negativity to your profession into your working life that I think shows in the results.
I feel like you are all hard.And reaping the benefits.And thank you so much for that.Oh my, my pleasure and thank you for the opportunity to share these thoughts with you.I've you had great questions.Great it up.Thank you, Doug.Remember how you used to be able to ride your bicycle with no hands?
That feeling of effortless motion, of almost flying, but you're so familiar with what you're doing that it feels really easy?Have you tried doing that recently?Now think back to when you first finished vet school.How good was your theoretical knowledge anatomy?
The crab cycle clotting cascades all of the pathophys at your fingertips.Have you tried doing that recently?Call me a nerd, but there's something quite joyful about revisiting the TCA cycle or kidney Physiology.Or what happens to potassium when acidity goes up but instead of just regurgitating it.
Integrating it with what you've learned in the intervening years to complete the missing piece of the circuit board, that is your knowledge, and having those light bulbs light up.And that is part of what we do with the Vet clinical podcasts.Yes, we learn about what's new, what's important, and you clarify complicated things, but sometimes we revisit concepts that are buried deep in your memory to help make things click, and it's a wonderful feeling.
Get back on the bike with us at vvn.supercast.com.

Dr Doug Mader