June 24, 2023

#95: The True Value Of Your Time: Side Hustles, Investing, Mindfulness and Empathy for Vets and Entrepreneurs. With Dr Mike Bugg.

#95: The True Value Of Your Time: Side Hustles, Investing, Mindfulness and Empathy for Vets and Entrepreneurs. With Dr Mike Bugg.
Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon RSS Feed podcast player icon
Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon RSS Feed podcast player icon
Season 1

Introducing Dr Mike Bugg. Mike graduated from veterinary school in 2008 and started his career as a mixed animal veterinarian. However, he soon realised the importance of having multiple sources of income and saw other veterinarians struggle with retirement. With a passion for personal finance and investing, Mike started investing in real estate in 2012 with the goal of making veterinary work optional. He and his wife continued to build their real estate portfolio while working, eventually allowing Mike to reduce his veterinary hours, and in 2018, Mike stopped working as a clinical vet altogether. During his final years of practice, Mike felt overwhelmed and unhappy, which led him to explore personal development and seek a more fulfilling life. He discovered that many other veterinarians were experiencing the same struggles, which inspired him to create his podcast, The Veterinary Project. Dr Mike had a vision of a community of veterinarians who would share their experiences and collaborate to overcome the difficulties in the profession.

On this episode of The Vet Vault, Dr Mike joins us to discuss the true value of time for veterinarians and we cover topics such as mindfulness, investing and empathy. Mike shares his personal journey in veterinary medicine and real estate investing, including how he developed The Veterinary Project to support the industry. We delve into the financial challenges facing the veterinary industry and Mike offers practical advice on how to change your money mindset to focus on abundance instead of scarcity. Tune in to gain some insightful and different perspectives on personal development, investing, money and more!

 

Topic list:

05:35 When and why should you change the "do it yourself" mentality?

13:29 Why Mike openly talks about the "dirty" word, money.

15:47 Mike's career journey - from farm to veterinarian to entrepreneur.

25:56 The all too common money mindset in the vet profession.

34:09 Why being aware of your money mindset and having positive money conversations is so important.

35:43 Valuing yourself, growing your skills and being confident in your abilities.

37:00 Your time: everything is a trade-off.

43:38 More than just a vet - Mike's story.

46:57 How Mike became a real estate investor.

51:41 Mike's take on investing.

56:50 Mike's book - You're Gonna Get Peed On!

64:04 The truth about being a vet.

67:55 The emotional relationship between work and money.

70:50 Mike's view on "empathy exhaustion" rather than compassion fatigue.

78:31 Dr Mike's deep dives on mindfulness and more.

82:54 How would Mike's career look different if he had to restart it knowing what he does now?

89:14 Mike's one piece of advice - get intentional about what you truly want from your life.

 

Join our community of Vet Vault Nerds to lift your clinical game and get your groove back with our up to date easy-to-consume clinical episodes at ⁠⁠vvn.supercast.com, ⁠⁠visit ⁠⁠thevetvault.com⁠⁠ for the show notes and resources for this episode, and connect with us through our online ⁠⁠Vet Vault Network.⁠⁠ for episode highlights, discussions, questions and support.

Join us at ⁠⁠Vets on Tour in Wanaka, New Zealand⁠⁠ on 13 - 18 August 2023 for great CE, live podcasting and snow... lots of snow!

Dr Mike's Podcast - The Veterinary Project

Dr Mike's Book - You're Gonna Get Peed On!: How Veterinarians Can Keep Their Dream Job from Becoming a Nightmare While Working Less and Earning More

What if you could dissociate, your vet work from your income, whatever.The number of hours you worked will mainly determined by how much you had to give and not by how much you needed to get.How many of the problems associated with the vet profession that we talk about endlessly would just evaporate in this episode dr.
Mike bug, gives us some ideas around how you could make that happen.Yes, this is to some extent an episode about money but it's also about getting very clear with yourself on how you want to spend your hours and if it sounds like magic.Well, it kind of is the magic of having the right mindset.
Mike shares with us how to develop that mindset, how to strategize Eyes, as well as some practical advice on how to turn those goals into reality.So, who is Mike dr.Michael bug according to His official bio is a real estate investor veterinarian and entrepreneur, dr.
Mike svedri Journey wasn't always smooth sailing though, so much so that he turned himself the nickname miserable, Mike during his final years, in practice reflecting the weight of the challenges that he was feeling in the profession.But it took those struggles as an opportunity for growth diving into personal development and taking what he was learning.
To help build a supportive Community for veterinarians, that eventually culminated in the creation of the veterinary project, which is a platform for veterinarians to share their stories and support each other.Mike is also a fellow podcaster and the co-host of the veterinary project broadcast.
And recently an author with his book, you going to get peed on how veterinarians can keep their dream job from becoming a nightmare while working less and earning more.And then as the bio in the beginning of this intro, suggest he is an Experienced and successful, real estate investor.
So expect a bit of investment chat on this episode above all dr.Mike is passionate about lifestyle design and challenging the limits of what's possible in life, which as you know, is right up my alley.So, I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did, but before we jump in few things coming up for us, I've told you about the Zealand and the snow conference from 13 to 18, August this year, where I'll be doing some live broadcasting with world-class speakers on palliative care on.
Edgy and much, much more.And also lots and lots of snowboarding.There are still a few tickets available come and join us Link in the description and it's something new and excited.I'm coming to America baby.First trip to the US ever, for diving's the International Conference for Veterinary emergency and critical care from 7 to 11, September and Denver Colorado.
We'll have our install.We'll have a couch and we'll have microphones.I've been busy lining up my guess.It's there.We will interview about the topic right there on the trade for and I would love your help in ask you questions so we can create some amazing clinical and non-clinical content.Please come and see us sit on the couch with us.
Tell us your story.Ask me your questions on or off a.It is going to be epic.That is 7 to 11.September, 20 23 Link in the short description.Okay, let's get back to dr.Michael bug.Welcome to the vet felt podcast.
This fantastic to be here.I'm very excited.We were just saying before and then I really loved preparing for this interview.Because often we interview vets, they're not they're not always Dad much out there in the public space.So when I try and research topics and dig a little bit deeper into their backgrounds and basically Jupiter Google still get, right?
They just don't really exist on the internet.So often I go kind of blind it to these interviews but with you you provided me with a lot of good content man we could talk for hours and hours.I'm excited to see where we all take it.And I'm excited to explore some of the topics we maybe don't always get to talk about.
So take it wherever you want.Nice well we'll jump in and and remind me to talk about your book because I'm very curious as to the why but I'm going to start with in my researching of you, I kind of across this line in one of your blog's.
This is a lot of work and it always will be.So what does that mean to you and what is the significance of that?Yeah.Also, for your listeners, that probably don't know me.I'm up in Canada, I grew up on a mixed farm.So that means beef, cattle and Grain.
And in its most simplest form, as a grain Farm where you can store your grain in either a flat bottom bin, which is exactly as it sounds.It's flat with big cylinder or a hopper bin, which is basically a giant funnel.And I remember when I was in my teens, helping my dad, build these bins on our farm, and we were building one of these.
Bottom bins and so summer, in Saskatoon, where I live is about you know, 30 degrees Celsius when you're building these bins, their giant aluminum, right stainless steel.So the sun's beating down its reflecting on you, it's excruciating Lee.
Hot dirty hard work.And I'm sitting there working on the floor of this bin and my dad comes by and I'm saying this morning an offhand complaining bratty teenagers way and I say this is a lot of work and it always Ways.Well be and what I'm referring to is once this bin is built for us to actually use it, we have to climb in side every time in the hot heat and shovel the drain out like that last little bit.
So I was like this makes no sense to me right?Like we're going to work really hard to create a system that we have to work really hard every time we want to use it, right?Yeah.So the significance is that is really affected how I look at how I earn money and how I I invest, because I'm always looking for opportunities.
Where, where can I work?Really hard and create a system, that's excellent.But once I've created the system, it kind of operates on itself like those Hopper beans would That's gold because we get we get stuck in the same old rut.
We do things with the way we do it because that's the way we do it and it offered take something or for most of us it takes something big to go to make us go.Well this is why we're going to change and it's often some sort of an outside influence but actually stopping and going.
Could I do this in a better way and this applies to clinical practice and life at to anything, really?Do you have any Not examples in in your life, whether it's vet to vet non-vet related to your personal life or anything.Where you've applied this principle, maybe you where you've gone?
Okay, well, I used to do things this way but it's really stupid.There's a better way of doing things and that's paid really good dividends for you and and I don't mean just Financial devoted.Yeah.I mean so the shift that has occurred in my life.
I've gone very much from a, I can do it and I will do it myself.Mentality.And we can apply that almost to everything.And now I'm looking at my life, much more of, you know, where do I want to spend my time?Where do I want to devote my energy?
And so for me, like decision-making and Outsourcing has totally changed.So these are super minor examples but when you start to master all of these little minor things, it's amazing how they can save time and energy for the big thing.
So, you know, I'm sometimes I'm even embarrassed to say but like I don't cut my own grass.I don't shovel my the snow on the driveway up here in Canada, right?These are very, very simple things but I truly believe, you know, every professional, every veterinarian.
I'm we don't cook our own meals anymore, right?We have all of this stuff fully outsourced, so that me and my wife can focus on, you know, what is our highest value tasks, which are raising our family and then where we want to spend our, you know, professional time.
And I I think that Nares are often really guilty of.You know, we are good at a lot of stuff, but sometimes, just because we can do, it doesn't mean we should.Yeah, man.That's a listen, I've been trying to learn specifically in the last three to five years is that Outsourcing thing.
And I started stuck on it because again, we talked about it before the podcast.I do a lot of the say, the grant work, the day-to-day stuff editing, and all that sort of stuff and my stuff.Link the my personal one.And I think it'll be the same for a lot of people when it comes to the, mowing of The Lawns and the Outsourcing and the everyday tasks is money, right?
I go, well, if I buy somebody a hundred bucks to edit a podcast or I can do it myself and a part of me goes well I should just do it myself because I'm going to save that money or the same thing and you should come and visit me because I have a very vast lawn.That needs mowing, I have attracted the remote with and I keep saying to myself If we should probably just pay somebody to do this, but we don't because we go, well, it's money that I'm going to have to spend that.
I'm gonna have to earn back in another way and I can't do it.So how do I combat that?How do I get over that ad for the listeners as well?How do you go?How do you value your time enough to go?Well, I could pay somebody else to do this stuff for me.Yeah, I don't know.
It's a tricky one and I'm not going to, you know, try come off.Like I have it all figured out because I do believe there's phases to life.You know, there's a saying that I really like, which is, you know, what got you here.Won't get you there.So if I'm a Veterinary student, I probably should be cutting my own lawn and shoveling my own driveway.
Yeah, you should probably do somebody else's so they could pay you for it.Yeah.And everyone around the block as a side hustle because it is like, just sort of the value of that money.It's a different equation, you know?And as you get older, things will start to change.
So your earning potential.Now as a Nicole veterinarian like it's more complicated because it's not just a spreadsheet, but we can all agree that an hour spent doing surgery or whatever, your preferred form of clinical practice is is a higher value task than mowing the lawn.
Right, like when you lay that out, it's very obvious.Like I can go earn X hundreds of dollars in one hour doing whatever and I can spend $45 for someone to come along and then I go even further.You have to add in the intangibles, right?
I don't have to think about.Do I have a lawn mower, is it full of gas?Do I have to go get gas?All of that stuff is taking bandwidth in the background of your of your day, right?And have you talked to a single veterinarian Recently.That is like I have all the time in the world, right?
It's like no we're all just jammed packed and we're looking at our calendars.They're packed full our energy.Our emotional bandwidth as like we have to start clawing that back wherever we can.That's how I look at it.Yeah, which is very sensible.
I think people listening to this petition in Australia and I don't know what it's like in the US and in Canada money-wise but the counter-argument will be well, it's not necessarily dollar-for-dollar because of and again we won't go down the whole way.Just the vet wager discussion because we could talk about that for ages.
But lots of people will go.No, I in about the same as I would pay somebody to mow my lawn and that's about where Australians at with vet wages or Let's say that's the cost of Outsourcing labor other work.So a lot of people go that no, it's not the same.
I could choose whether I do vet work to pay the lawn mower person, or I cannot divide work and do the lawn mowing myself and we keep going about lawn, mowing, but the same goes for lots of things.So like, child care and all sorts of other things.So it's kind of, but, but I like what you say about the intangibles to go, well, do I like mowing the lawn?
Maybe it's my Relaxation.Maybe I hate it.Maybe I should rather just be in the clinic doing something that I like, well, I think when we open a conversation around money, ultimately what people want money to do for them is to allow them to do more of the things they like and less of the things they don't like, right?
So it's like Take cooking some people really love cooking awesome.You should do that.If you hate it you should Outsource it and you should earn your money doing something that you love.Of right?That would be like in the in the perfect scenario.On the topic of personal development.
There's a popular saying that I really like you are the average of The Five People, You surround yourself with.Without clinical podcasts, you'll surround yourself with 20 to 30 of some of the smartest most qualified people in the world of small animal medicine surgery and emergency and critical care.
They'll hop in the car with you, on the way to work, go for a walk with you or chat you while you do the dishes, all the while imparting their skills and knowledge to you in a fun and engaging way.And before, you know it you'll be the one that others want to surround themselves with.So they can learn from you, become the smartest kid in the room.
Again, by joining a community of V8 V nerds, at BBN Dot.Super cast.com.Yeah, let's talk about money because it's a big topic and it's almost, I've said it before the podcast.But in a profession, it's almost a dirty word.
Like we're getting profession.We shouldn't be talking about money.That's, that's a bit rude to talk about money, right?I'm interested.I read on your blog, a couple of blog posts to go.You talked about before having your daughter.I've got multiple kids now or is it still just the episode 21 and you know, yeah, three and a half.
Old Riley, and a five-month-old Ethan, who very young very little, okay?So before your first one, you wrote that you and your wife said down and you had a discussion about what do we want our life to look like as family going ahead.Which first of all, I really like that.
I really like the thoughtfulness around that instead of just saying, well, we're going to jump to this River and we're going to, it's going to take us somewhere instead of that.You going?Now, I have about and I've got a paddle and And we going to decide it erection.
We can steer this boat a little bit and be thoughtful about how you want to live your life.So that's gold Festival but I'm curious in that discussion, was money part of that discussion.Will you talking about?What did you talk about?How we want to earn this much and how we're going to use this money?
Was that part of that initial discussion?For me, it is now for sure.And I don't remember when the, the switch flipped, but I've gotten very comfortable speaking about money.And and luckily, Rosalie my wife were on the same page where we have a lot of money conversations.
And I month of the opinion that there are two things in life that are going to have a dramatic effect on you, whether you care about them or not, whether you talk about them or not or whether you pay any attention to them or not, and that's health and money.Right?
Like your health.Something is going to happen to it whether you pay attention or not death and taxes.Yeah, it is.Yeah.And that's the same as money.You can bury your head in the sand, but in the world we live in money is still going to affect you.So you know you may as well get through that uncomfortableness and like you said you can have a sense of direction of where you're going to take it and in this world it will require money to do that.
So it was a huge part of our conversation.Okay.So Don't be through your story for anybody who doesn't follow you or doesn't know you.At that stage, where you were practicing, veterinarian or practice owner.Give us a quick recap.Mike, the new grad student to Mike.Now, how did life go for you?
Yeah, The quick summary.So as I mentioned, I grew up on a farm that's important cause that really dictated what I thought my life would look like.Right.So I had the Grand Vision of I'm going to be sort of a big beef, cattle rancher, but I'm also going to be a veterinarian and I'm gonna do this.
I'm going to have all these cattle and I really do love cattle.I've got a live on a farm, so I go to vet school, I graduate, you know, we fast forward a few years and all of a sudden I'm not doing mixed practice anymore, I'm doing small animal.And if we fast, To now, I'm doing exactly none of what I thought I would be doing.
I'm not clinically practicing as a veterinarian.I don't own any cattle and I live in a city, not in the farm, so it's just it is funny.And if you would have pulled me back in my first year of veterinary school and said out of 100, how certain are you that this is what your life will look like.
I would have been high 80s 90s, like this.This is exactly where I'm headed, right?And so it's comical now, You know, whatever this is 15 years later or so to be like nope, it's exactly opposite.So how did that happen?Yeah, that's a good question.
So there was a few kind of moments in there.And one of the one of them was on the drive to work for my very first day as an official veterinarian, right?So tons of time in the clinic volunteering been there as a summer student, but it just it does hit quite a lot different when you are officially the veterinarian.
That is signing off, you know, on cases.I'm but I remember driving to work and stopping at a red light and just sort of gripping the steering.Will and thinking to myself.Wow, like this is it like this?I will be making this drive for the next 30 to 40 years.
You know, to the vet clinic to work from 8:30 to 5:30 or whatever those hours might look like.And honestly, it felt very trapping to me, right.You know, I wasn't quite prepared for what that that meant and I definitely wanted more freedom and flexibility in my life.
This was day one, that was day one.I still like, I vividly remember it because this is I'm going to throw us off on a little bit of a tangent here but one of the things that I see a lot of veterinarians doing that I certainly did is I was very outcome oriented, right?
Like outcome oriented goals so it's get into vet school, okay?Get through year, one year, two year, three graduate internship residency, if that's your thing and you reach this final outcome where it's like okay you've officially checked off all of those outcome goals.
Is that you sat and then you look and you're standing on top of the mountain and you're like kind of like well now what you know like you feel a little bit lost because there's there's not another immediate outcome goal in front of you like the next logical one is retire that's 30 or 40 years away like that's a long time like that's a big void to fill if you're waiting for that to make you happy and I was like wow like we've got to evaluate this.
Sorry, I find that it layers that that was actually day one because I feel like a lot of us get to that point, but for many, as many of us, it takes, at least at least like five years or so.Until we get to that point and I will clarify that.That just meant, I felt trapped by the idea of having to go, you know, exchange my time for money on day one.
The many years of my career, I really enjoyed when we start talking about, like, you know, maybe burn out or whatever word we want to use there.That's quite a lot later in my career when it felt like, you know, I'm on a hamster wheel.You're working like 40, 50, 60 hours, and it just felt like a grind, right?
Hmm, I get that. 100% personal question though.Did you have any of the same same set of thoughts today that you got married?Like, is this going to be it for the rest of my life?Yeah, don't we're good there on that one.
Okay, good.No, I totally get that.Mike, I think I've told this story before on the podcast and again, my took a lot longer than that, but I have it all Diary.I cannot keep an official title, but I always have a notebook of some sort where I can scribble down of thoughts and things that I need to do.
It's all specifically just my brain on a piece of paper to get it out of my head.And in an old one of those, there's a line underlined that says, if not this then, What?And I had to verbally, ask myself this question because I got to the same point going.
This is the same thing, I'm not growing, I'm not, I'm just exchanging as you say, exchanging my time and especially as I started having kids and that my time just became so much more valuable when I went, I don't want to do it and it's not that I don't want to do the work, I just don't want to do it in this manner for the next 30 years until I retire.
So quick question for you about that, Mike those thoughts that you had driving to the clinic.Was it really just that were there specific things about the job or the work place or the work that you were going to do all was it just that feeling of?
I like the work but I don't want to do the same thing every day.What led to that thought pattern do you know do you remember at all?For me it's like and everything.I've kind of started scripting my Around and everyone is optimizing for something.
Right?Whether we've acknowledged that or not, like some people are optimizing to earn as much money as they can.I'm optimizing for Freedom like that is that is my highest value, right?So for me, it was strictly around.I really didn't like having those guardrails on my day where it's like, I will have to be here at 8:30 and I will get to leave at 5:30 and you will carry the call phone on this day.
And you'll take these weekend's like Where I look where I worked.Was.Excellent.My mentorship was excellent.I have nothing negative that I could possibly say about where I worked other than it was like those were the parameters.And that for me, I was like, man, that that is a tough pill to swallow for my life.
So what did you do about it?For me, I started kind of implementing a plan where I could phase that down like when we look at my clinical Veterinary career, I didn't just go from working to not, right?I kind of laid out like an investment plan where I was like, okay.
Now work.I don't want to say optional but I can start reducing it right?And I actually Came Traveling to Australia in 2009 or 10 somewhere in there and that was part of my transition.When I came back I came back into Animal medicine.
And I was on more of a floating schedule where I could, you know, wrap up my work if the clinic needed, but when they didn't, I would dial it down and I was trying to keep my, my income at the same level while reducing the number of days.I would go into the Vet Clinic, right?
So, an ideal world for me and there was working, you know, three days a week at the vet clinic, I had other investment stuff on the go and I kept just trying to dial that down to where, you know, you get to the point where you can choose if you go in or not.So is that low coming or casual work?
Like how did you practically increase that was it?Let me work, let me work for less for the same amount of money at the end of the month.Was it switching to Smalley's work?They did it for you or casual work.How did you practically achieve that part of?It would have been switching to small but just building your skill set, right?
I had a strong interest in surgery so I would focus a lot of my Cee there and try to bring new skills to the clinic, you know, that weren't there.So now they can start off.Offering different surgeries that they weren't offering before.And when you start to do those things, you're more valuable, right?
Like you're delivering more value, you're helping more patients, the clinic is earning more.You'll get to earn more and in that in-between time to, I also did Locum, right?So, I was working at my primary clinic and then there was another clinic that I would go grab shifts but the beauty of that is like you can choose right?
If I, if I wanted holidays or I was going somewhere.I just didn't have to accept those Locum shifts, but if it fit, I would grab extra.And that just sort of help to speed up that whole investing process.Yeah.When I get back to that investing part because now you working and you're earning the money.
But what often happens is that, that's where the thought process stops for a lot of people to go well and working on making more money so I'm saving more.So I can spend more.I could have better holidays, or better stuff.So what were you doing with like, Ugh?
Why earn extra money?What was your thought process about it in the longer term?Other than let's get myself more time in the short term?How are you spending that money?Or how are you investing it or what we're doing with it?Yeah.So for me it's been real estate investing.
Like that is definitely been my primary investment tool and it does it comes right back to Freedom.Like I knew I could calculate out you know, if we buy an investment property and I hold it for 10 years, you can look at okay, the mortgage will pay down and the rent is going to be this much.
So they'll be this much cash flow, but it really came down to that freedom, right?It's continually dropping that in and knowing, okay.Everytime I have this investment amount that replaces Of day at work, you know?And that's how I unofficially tracked it.
As what do I earn as a veterinarian for the day?Okay, if I can create an investment that earns that I just bought myself one day back.Hmm.You've got a unique mindset, it's even going back to a talk about increasing your personal value.
So basically your per hour value when I show up at the vet clinic, am I going to get 30 bucks an hour?Or is it going to be $80 an hour?And a lot of people in our profession will over time actually increase the skill and the value but they weren't they weren't going bargain for it.
They'll be there. 10 years later, for kind of the same salary and I don't know why.Why do you know why?Like, have you come across that money Minds?We Talked in the beginning where into the red profession is often sort of frowned upon to talk about money or to sell yourself and it's that whole caring, profession thing.
I had a discussion, just the just last week I was at a conference and I discussion with a very very talented.Wait, who said just outright?I don't care about money and I was listening going yet now you don't but in 20 years time or even in 10 years time when you have responsibilities or maybe you've got kids or a family whatever and suddenly you're going to Oh, I wish that I cared a little bit more about money when I was in my Twenties that day sitting next to the pool.
What have you found personally?Mike with vets and their mindsets around money?Paul there's a good question, a good topic since.Well, I'm gonna dive in and keeping in mind, this is my opinion, it's not.I haven't I haven't ran a global survey and said this is definitively what all veterinarian stink, but These are my observations of like, you know, a decade of clinical practice and talking to lots of veterinarians, and I refer to it in the book, I talk about kind of the money mindset drain that I see affecting the veterinary industry and its kind of three parts to that.
And as I diving, I'll set the table.So I already mentioned the first thing health and money affect everyone, whether you pay attention to it or not.The next thing, just as we look at this, everyone has a story with money right whether they're Junior, not they have feelings, they have emotions, they may even they may have past trauma attached to it.
So when you're talking with someone about money, you're not just talking to them in that present day, you're talking to them with all the stuff they're bringing to the table, which, you know nothing about, right?You have no idea what their past money, traumas.
Maybe.So, when I look globally at the veterinary profession number one, big thing affecting us as we were starting from behind financially, right?So if you look at the cost of Education to become a veterinarian, you know you're looking at 62, maybe to 10 years.
You got tuition, you got living expenses by the time we graduate, you know, there's various stats depending on the region but you're probably a couple hundred thousand dollars in debt so we have that just on the spreadsheet as a number but we also have.What does that do to us emotionally right to that Veterinary student?
That's graduating with 250,000 in debt.How does that?Feel to them.That's starting to affect how they think about money and then part two of that is the opportunity cost.So we're in school for 10 years.Sure.You earn a little bit, you know with Summer gigs or an internship but in the grand scheme of things, you don't learn a lot, right?
And I'll compare that, just for argument's sake.Say you take someone to people graduate high school together.One person goes just into a trade two-year course.They're earning money right away veterinarian, goes into school.All ten years later they graduate.If you compare those two people ten years out, they're going to have very different money stories because one of them is going to feel like they're drowning in debt and the other one's going to be.
I've been working for eight years, I have a lot of savings.I'm not saying one is better or worse than the other, right?We're just highlighting that there's a story and there's a motions to the veterinarian and they are unfortunately starting from behind with, with the way, everything is structured.
Yeah.And in addition to that, because You committed the extra eight years of study, whatever for wait, and you came out of the qualification where you are now, suddenly earning five times or 10 times more than the dried person, then you can catch up, but it's not the reality.
The reality is that you walk out and you're earning the same as that guy, who started his career.Two years out of school.Yeah.Unfortunately.Fortunately it is and, and it's, it's funny because at least this is how I experienced.It is, everyone thinks veterinarians are really rich, you know?
Like it They're like, oh, your Veterinary.Do you are you are really wealthy at it and it's you're sitting there being like, yes, I mean by like yes in the where we live, in a first world where very rich in lots of ways but we don't earn anywhere near what people think we learn there.
Yeah.There's quite a dichotomy there.Yep.Yeah but think none of us have not had that conversation with the client or with a stranger or somebody.So sorry I interrupted you earlier.So you're saying about the the mindset so yeah.See, the first part you're starting from behind.
So the second part that comes into this is you've probably heard the saying, you're the average of The Five People, You spend the most time with and that and that applies in all areas of our life.And that would also apply.When we talk about money conversations now, the catch is, most people do not talk about money, right?
They're not sitting around the dinner table talking about money, when them and their friends go out to have a beer, they're probably not talking a lot about money, so what I found was the Veterinary Clinic actually made up the vast majority of the money conversations because we take a group of Veterinary as we're all starting from behind, we all feel kind of that same pressure.
Then we take a client that just had an emergency with their pet that they weren't planning for right, and they're emotionally distraught and rightfully so, but we take the two parties.We put them in an exam room and then we throw an in an estimate right in the middle of Of them.
And we say, okay, we can save your pet for $1200.So now we've got two people here with all their past like, emotional money stuff and we take a highly emotional situation and we tell them talk about money, right?
Right now, you guys got to sort this out and it's like it is it is just the most, like hopeless situation ever.Like who's going to navigate that money conversation I kind of saw you spread you guys.I wanted to get your take on that.
No, it's so true.It's some that story.That's 30 runs deep even if you're aware of it, and I could talk about it for personal experience, especially around the veterinary science, you know, you look back to your parents and how they were with money and your childhood, and it made a deep deep impact on me, and it made it really hard for me.
It makes it really hard for me to talk about money to clients at the fact that my My dad didn't put a lot of monetary value on our pits pits were well-loved and they were well cared for, but when it came to spending actual real money on it, it is just like, well, that's ridiculous.
And how does that not affect?How does that not affect me in the consult room talking to a person about money?You know, I just assume that people don't want to spend money on their pets.I have to think about it.I have to think about it cerebrally every time, and every time I have that conversation, Is that emotional response and I'm aware of it but even though I'm aware of it, I still I still can't shake it.
It has stories around so so deep and they do the money stories that we all have.They're all very valid but they do run very deep, right?Like they're ingrained in us and that's what like if you hadn't told me that I wouldn't know that.And so if I was your veterinarian and you were in the in the exam room across the table from me, you know what?
I'm getting a lot of resistance on like well why you know what?Going on here.But it's like, I have no clue about your past money story.That's like, now come to the Forefront and may or may not be dictating your actions.So, what do you do about it?What did you--what do you personally do about it?
Well, I think, you know, the first part is unawareness like this conversation that we're having, right?Because we, when we look at it, the third part of what I kind of called the money mindset drain is, your thoughts are going to dictate your feelings and are going to dictate your actions.
So you were aware of that.So that gives you an opportunity to step in the middle of that, right?And choose a different Master or different course of action.The danger is many people won't even spend the time to be aware of it.
So that's all happening unconsciously.They don't know why it's happening.But it is, there's a past money story that dictates how they feel that's going to dictate their actions.That's going to get them.The result, which is more of how they were already feeling, right?So step one would be awareness.
I would say, the next thing that we have to do, you have to start intentionally putting Yourself in positive, money conversations, right?Because that's, that's sort of what's going to counterbalance that because I look at it, this is again, my personal opinion money is just simply a tool like it's not inherently good or bad like money in and of itself has never done anything to me.
It's people that are controlling the money and what they choose to do with them, right?But you can find people that are using money in very positive ways and and and using it for good.Good, right?And when you can start to reframe and start looking at that positive side like that abundant side versus that scarcity side.
So we start on the money conversation with clients which is a big topic.But what about going back to what we talked about earlier about increasing your own hourly rate, or your own value?Do you find that people in general?But we're talking about vatsya struggle with that with the believing that they are worth it with more like having a plan and saying, well, I'm going to increase my value.
I'm going to get really good at this thing.Now, how am I going to monetize it?I'm the veteran, the clinic and I am suddenly really good at doing Altra.Sounds that I wasn't three years ago and nobody else is.But then that's often where that stops, it stops at the well, I like doing this but I've seen it very infrequently where people will go well how do I turn this into more income and whatever that means to me as you say whether that's more time or for investing or whatever else?
Yeah, the short answer is.Yes.You know, I and I struggled with this a lot.But you know, with with your own self worth and that's a tough one, I think really a lot of it comes down to confidence.You know, like confidence in yourself, belief in yourself.
My one of my earliest mentors would always say to me, you know, the problem is confidence not competence.You know, when I was maybe struggling through something and he could recognize, you know, I'm I was very competent.I was just maybe at times lacking confidence so developing that confidence for me in its most simplistic As capacity, developing confidence is keeping promises to yourself and you can do that on a daily basis and even out on a micro basis with, it's just keeping your word and it can be as simple as you know.
I'm going to go for a 5 minute walk and then doing it.And that's a vote like you've casted, a vote of confidence in yourself and all these things.Start to stack on each other, right?So you're not going to jump in at the deep end and be like, I took a TPL oak or so.On my very first surgery, I'm 100% confident.
Know it's gonna be a process of stacking.Those winds on top of each other but you have to stick with it.Like as veterinarians, I found we view failure.So negatively, right?Like we've just been trained whether it's through the universe like University, and all the tests we have to take where failure Just Hits us so hard.
Right?And we have to understand.Failure is the path forward like before you get good at anything.You will fail at it.Yeah.Yeah.I often think about that cuz you know, you listen to all of the professional or personal development books and podcasts and things like that, and it's very common theme that you've gotta fail.
You gotta fail to get better.You gotta fail.It's a little bit trickier than a profession when we talk about clinical work because you got you got really fucked up too badly.There are repercussions for those failures.So how do you Institute that mindset of I'm willing to extend myself?
But with some guard rails in place, where I'm not going to step up too badly and put my patients in any serious risk of getting myself into any real sort of trouble.Yeah, that is a tough one because in our profession, the stakes are high right?Like, you know, a pet could lose its life.
That's that's for real.And so I think that's just the measured approach why mentorship is so important.I'm thinking back, I remember when I was in my early, I think it was first year doing Doing C-sections on cattle and I remember I'd have the cell phone off to the side with the phone numbers scribbled on a piece of paper because I'm scrubbed in these are in the middle of the night.
So there's you and a farmer and I can remember a few times where I'd have my my arms are inside the cow and I have to look to the farm and be like can you go to that cell phone and dial that number?That's written down, you know?And that was kind of my my Escape valve where my mentor would be on the other end and and willing to help out.
So that's why mentorship so important but I mean You can scale into that, right?It's like take the course, then do it with someone before your maybe the soul surgeon, doing one of those things, but it is like if you lose that sense of being willing to push into your uncomfort Zone, you know, unfortunately, that's where I see a lot of vets will pull back and then get very stagnant, right?
And that's you get stagnant in your growth, you get stagnant in your joy in the profession, right?It takes a lot.It takes a big toll on you.Let's get back to the money mindset.Is that the same principle?I'm not sure how we even got onto the failure thing.
So, let's go back to Young.Mike who is increasing his hourly value and maybe has a story around money.There's somebody listening to this going.Well, yeah, this is resonates clearly.I have a story and I want to increase my personal value.
How do I get better at it?Is it the same thing?Is it just surrounding yourself with people having these sorts of conversations or and failing or how did you get better at that?At valuing yourself more in terms of a monetary value.Yeah, for me, I mean a lot of it shifted to as other components of Life start adding in.
So you it's very easy to give up more of your time when there's nothing else really pressing to take it, if that makes sense.So I can think back to when I was just, you know, a single veterinarian.And, you know, you'd go in and do all sorts of stuff on days off and whatnot.
Now that I have two kids, I have a very compelling reason to really guard my time.Because in, for me personally, spending time with them is the highest value task, right?And so, everything is a trade-off.
If I spend one hour less reading, my kids a bedtime story, and tucking them in at night, because I'm off doing something else, it's like that better be a really, really valuable thing that I'm doing because it's taking away from an exceptionally valuable part of my life.
So it's drive and desire.And motivation definitely comes into it.So if I have to have that difficult conversation about money with the bus or do something like that that way it has some friction, right?But if the thing that's pushing me in the direction, is it strong enough?
I'm not going to overcome that friction.I'm going to go.Well, it's easier in this Lane because I don't really have that massive need to do that.So you have to find yourself something that drives you to do it.I raised it for that for sure.Definitely it was the same situation.Creation for me with suddenly I started going off at kids.
Now, my time is really valuable, it's not about lying on the couch or watching a movie or something like that.It's doing something that I genuinely value with my time, something has to change take those steps.I've heard people describe it.As you know, you have to pick your heart.
So it could be considered hard to have that uncomfortable conversation you know with your boss or whoever that's with But it will also be hard to look back on your life and regret, you know, missing key moments so it's like you get to pick which one of those hard situations do you want to encounter all of that is going to influence your actions, which influence your results.
So I'm a big fan of the quote, by Earl, Nightingale, where he says, you become what you think about most of the time.So I would just encourage your listeners to give some thought to when they are thinking about money.What is what are they thinking?Thinking about most of the time and is that a - scarcity thought?
And if it is, how can they convert that over to more positive abundance, thought most of the time and that will serve them.Well, Okay, gold.So one of my stoking, my internet stalking of Mike bug.
I'm interested I looked at your LinkedIn profile and on the your description of what you are.You have it written as real estate, investor veterinarian and entrepreneur.And it's interesting that a real estate investor is before veterinarian in your list.
Is that just random that it happened randomly or did you think about that carefully?Did you sit there and edit it and go?Like, why did you find yourself as a real estate?Investor primarily and then Richmond area?Yeah, it's a this is an awesome question.
It is intentional.I switched it around whenever I left clinical practice just because for me it didn't feel authentic to like if I wasn't practicing as veterinarian to lead with that.That, I mean, I still do consider myself a veterinarian.
Like, you know, I've graduated, I'm licensed all of that.I'm just not clinically practicing, but it does open up a larger conversation around identity, right?And for a long time, I really like, like I am a veterinarian, I really clung to that and that, that was like how I introduced myself.
That's how I viewed myself.And so sliding that down is part of me like Like, teasing it away.Like, yes, I am a veterinarian, but I'm more than that.I'm a real estate investor.I'm an entrepreneur.I'm a husband.You know, all these different things.So that is that is part of how I'm starting to accept.
Like there's much more to my identity than just that one job description.Hmm, the other reason I ask that is that I've come through the same process at some time in the past that it wasn't for a specific profile or Stevia.
Something, it was more just an exercise for myself.So I try to write down.I am you but him strong?I am and then fill in the blanks and that exercise of try to do that.In order of importance is really quite useful is very interesting.So a my veterinarian first and foremost or father.
Either or Surfer and and that actually help me guide how I wanted to spend my time I went.Okay so well if I say parent first then I've got to try and reflect that in my calendar.Got to work towards saying well they're just say it show me I heard this before somewhere somebody said if you want to talk to me about what you value don't tell me.
Show me your calendar and as I say there's a mindful how terrible I am at the moment at parenting.How much time I'm spending on podcasting.So it's a really useful exercise.Think about what, what are those things beyond the things I do for money?Put them in there and then live your life according to that.
I love that.Yeah, I've heard that, the calendar thing is is just so valuable, right?Because you can I don't want to say like because we're not intentionally lying to ourselves but you can trick yourself from time to time.Yeah.And life will ebb and flow.So I mean we have to look at this broadly like one day doesn't Define.
Nu, but, you know, like it is where are you spending most of your time?Well, that's probably what you value the most and it is yeah, yeah.So how did the real estate thing happened for you?How did real estate investor slide up to the number one spot?
And again not ahead of parenting and all that sort of stuff.But professionally speaking at least?Yeah.Well, I guess it just.Yeah.Just sort of happened like one at a time.I was pretty fortunate.I was introduced to real estate investing.By accident, but in an excellent way from my parents.
So when I went to vet school, they bought a house and they kind of said, you can live here, you have to fill all the other bedrooms, right?And if you can get a whole bunch of Roommates then you won't have to pay rent.So I kind of got to live for free for my entire vet school.
It was their house nice.But at the end of that school, when I think it was six years later when they sold it, you know, they did financially really well on it.And so that was kind of my first like, aha.Into real estate investing.It wasn't my investment, but I got to witness it, right?
So then when Rosalie and I started purchasing investment properties for ourself off the start, I had no intention that, you know, someday this might replace the veterinary income, it was just like, this is a retirement play.But after a couple years and we started to see how powerful it was, I was like, wow, if we stick on this path, this is going to unlock a lot of time, freedom for me.
And so it Just kind of was one of those things where the the temperature on the water was continually turning up and, you know, if you don't look at it eventually boils and once it started boiling, I was like, Wow, we've really got something here.So what is real estate investor?Look like for you today?
Are you actively looking at properties and selling and managing or yeah.What what do you mean by?I'm a real estate investor.Yes.So again keeping in mind that I am optimizing for freedom and time Freedom.So that is now dictated a lot of how I'm showing up initially.
I did everything right just sort of the classic I'll do it all now.I spend most of my time looking for Building.So we started in the single-family space.Now I buy entire apartment buildings and I'm looking for buildings that I can go in and transform.
So like completely renovate, you know, maybe like ad units or add bedrooms or whatever that looks like and dramatically change the value of them and then we do hold them long term as a rental.But I now Outsource all of that to a property management company, right?
So I do I pay for that service, but I'm not The one day-to-day managing operations.And do you also order, I misunderstand this, you offer a coaching or teaching on investing for other people, as well, is that part of the things that you do?
I don't officially coach or Mentor, like, I don't charge anyone for it.I end up having a lot of conversations because it is, it's just honestly, one of the things I'm the most passionate about in the world, you know, and especially talking with veterinarians.
I just get so fired up when they want to take charge of their lives.R life and their financial future.So I informally consult with lots of people on the investing side.I do work with others, you know, there will like I'm an active real estate investor and there will be people that are that want to be completely passive and they say okay, you know what you're doing.
I don't want to do any of it, can we just team up together and you go do it all?And so I do some of those, those type of things too.Okay.And is that how you spend the majority of your professional time?Now?Like if you had to say, what are you now?
Is that it is that what you do to time or is it the podcasting or we'll get back to the book?Are you an author?I would say, yes.Like the real estate investor.If we were to, if I had to say, okay what is your professional career?At this point, that's what takes the majority of my time.
The podcasting I view is kind of a passion project so that's me and Jonathan, you know, we kind of Out together that definitely takes a few hours a week but I love it like this.It's no different than this.I would have never got to meet you.Otherwise, you're just chatting with really interesting.
Cool people the record button happens to be on like that's literally how I look at podcasting.We don't I don't think we don't have any sponsorship, we we sell fund it like it is fully a passion project so that would be my other thing writing, the book also a passion project.
That was something I just always wanted to do.And then other than that, it's being dad to young kids is it feels a lot of us plots.Yeah, it could fill up all of your time, right?Can't be a bit of a bottomless pit of time.
And I don't mean that in a negative way necessarily before we move on to the book and I'm dying to ask you about that.But just back to the investing again, for people listening to this, who into investing, because we do had, we've had a couple of Finance episodes in the past.
We had one in a while ago, with one of Australia's leading personal finance, guys, I listen to that episode.Why?For a run yesterday.I think it was cool with no.Yeah.And there's also a few other people who I've talked about shares versus and I know I'm getting into the nitty-gritty here.
So if somebody's listening to this and you're not into Finance, then maybe the next couple of minutes is not for you but looking at real estate versus shares.Do you invest in shares as well?And and why the leading towards real estate?
Because I've heard the lots of Smart people talk about real estate being a much suppose, a much harder work investment.It's very active engaged things and you going to have problems with stuff like, you know, leaking, roofs and problems with tenants.And often people that count the hidden costs and little bits of money that get drained and on the side at real estate.
And then null said, for example, comparing some of his real estate Investments, the return on investments.Like, you talked about the one apartment that he had in the podcast.That is sold for a good profit.Vut and, uh, yeah, that's great.But if I'd had that money in a simple Index Fund for the same period of time, it would have been worth like 5 times as much, do you have a take at that at all?
And then on the flip side, I've got a good friend who does both but he loves his real estate.He says he's done really well from it.So yeah.What's your take on it?Yeah, I do have a take on it and the short answer to your first question.Do I invest in like shares and stocks is yes.
But that wasn't always the case.So when I was first started like go back say 2012 like 10 or 11 years ago I was exclusively investing in real estate and the reason that I was exclusively investing in real estate was I felt that I had more control over it now, right?
Like if I wanted to dive into understanding, you know, stocks and go on earning calls and understand, you know, the financial statements of the different companies.Okay, we could do that and I could try get a bit of an advantage there, but I found it a lot easier on the real estate side.
And so the reason I'm saying that is real estate is an inefficient market, right?Whereas the stock market is not if I wanted to buy, I'm not sure if it's your guys, if it's your largest company but BHP is a fairly significant company in Australia, right?
Yeah.If I wanted to go buy stocks and shares in PHP it's kind of whatever the market price.Is that day.That's Is what I'm going to buy them for.Whereas on the real estate side of things that, you know, there's no live pricing.It's you can find a house where the owner, you know, hasn't painted it in 20 years and, you know, it's kind of beat up and it and just cosmetically doesn't look as good.
So it's undervalued to what its true value is.So I look at that.You know, if BHP stock is trading at $63 the, I look at it on the real estate side as this is like someone Click that share, certificate, crumpled it up, threw it on the ground, it's all dirty.
They stomped on it and someone's looking at it and says, oh, this crumpled piece of paper is only worth $40.And I look at it, I say, well, wait a minute here, if I just I'll just pick it up and I'll smooth it out and we'll get all the dirt off of that there.And, you know, sure that means I have to do some work.
It means I have to paint the house, but they're now, it's back to sixty three dollars.So, that's how I look at real estate.Is I'm always looking for where Can I drive the value?But you are 100% right in that, it is not passive.
Like it is, it is work.And I'm always really clear on that because I do not want to mislead people and have them think.Oh, it's just this very easy mine that you do.That's like, no, that is not the case.Not how I've done it, right?And I'm also not one of those Real Estate Investors that's against the stock market at all.
Like, I believe people should have both That's a cool inside my like that.So there's a lot more emotion involved in real estate versus.As you say the stock market is more rational in the long term, not always day-to-day but there is a degree of rationality and predictability in the stock market versus if you can.
If you have the skills in the inside, not to get on the wrong side of emotions with property, you could actually utilize that, right?Maybe that's why I'm no good at real estate because I get overexcited and then I overpay that I understand that.Every single time.Yeah.
And it does happen.Like it is an emotional thing, especially if you're talking about people's like personal houses, right?There's a lot of attachment.Yep.All right.Let's dive into the book.Can you remind me?What's it called?Again, you're gonna get peed on love that and then it's got a cool subtitle as well.
What's the, what's the full title of the book?You're gonna get people but how veterans can keep their dream job from becoming a nightmare while working.And earning more.That's an important book to write.First of all, why write the book?Because it's not a small commitment, right?
It was not know, I be writing.A book is something I always wanted to I do really enjoy writing, you know, at various times I'll kind of go through fits and starts but I'll put out different blog posts but why writing this book is I was going through my career and so keeping in mind, I graduate in 2008 so I'm in debt.
Nari School 2004 to 2008.And when I graduated and came out of that school, I personally felt, you know, very under prepared for all of the other things, right?I'm not talking medicine and surgery.I'm talking about like dealing with clients, talking to clients.
Like I just felt like I was like, we didn't get taught any of this and we're learning it on the Fly and there's all this stuff that I didn't know about, right?And I go on and I have a, you know, ten years of clinical experience.Under my belt.And I just got to witness like how my perspective changed along the way like year after year, after year.
And then I started going, you know, you'd have a coffee meeting with different veterinarians and you get into a real conversation about, how are you doing?How are you feeling?And I was like, wow, like everyone is feeling this way, right?Currently in 2023, it start, it's much more talked about.
Now, a lot of the issues you know podcasting is more popular YouTube channels.There's more Of a conversation happening, which is excellent.But that's why I wrote the book.I remember finishing, one of my workouts, I was doing a roller workout and I kind of fell off the roller.
And I was like, I have to share this story with everyone like it.There's a saying, I've heard where you are, you are most equipped to serve those that you've struggled with, like your struggles can help to serve others.And so that's why I wanted to write this as, like, tell my story, tell the things I learned, Earned I'm leaning on the podcast.
I think we're coming up on episode 128 over on our podcast.I've had a lot of conversations with veterinarians all over the world.So I got to pull a lot of that together and hopefully, you know, other Veterinary students out there, early career vets or even late, career vets can learn from that, you know, learn from the wisdom of others.
It's interesting.That's exactly why the red felt started.It's almost a carbon copy and it's not that I got to the 10 year, mark and went ah, I've got it all figured out.Now I should tell the world about it.It was just that shifted perspective, going that for the first 10 years of my career.
This was really hard.I found it really challenging and I didn't particularly like it and then around the 10 to 15 years out I went, hey, this is getting easier, I'm starting to hit my stride.I don't hate it that actually some days, it's really fun now and I started thinking about well, why is it easier what happened?
Is it just clinical experience and confidence, and learning the skills, but then, going back and going.Well, I wish I had some of these skills.Even five years ago, ten years ago.Let's start digging and see if we can learn more.And then funny enough.The podcast happened because I was gonna, I wanted to write a book.
I wanted to speak to veterinarians who have figured some things out because I thought If I've learned some things, what more Carolyn Jolie a girl and so much more from other weights to make this even better.So let's talk to other weights and write a book about it and then the book became a podcast, my research project for book, just became the podcast that I never did the book.
Maybe one day.It's it's fun, but you learn a lot about yourself.I will tell you that much when you were, you know, putting words on paper and realizing you're going to release them onto the world like permanently forever.There's a lot of introspection.
So what did you learn about yourself?Wow, I learned that I still have a bit of a perfectionist and because it took me forever to write this book.Like it, I started this when covid hit in 2020 and I would pick it up and put it down and pick it up and put it down.I also learned that I have too many irons in the fire, right?
I need to focus a little more like this book could have been done much more efficiently, right?But just my nature I say yes to too much stuff.Tough.So those were some of the big ones where I was like if if I ever write another book, I will approach it very differently.
Right?And I'll help too.I'll clear my schedule.Clear my plate Focus, you know get it done.That's good advice.I'll take it.It sounds exactly like it again, I really enjoy writing but because of all the irons in the fire because I used to block a little bit and I had this idea of the book but too many things going on and I still don't know how to fix that problem.
You get too excited about all these different little things.All these different opportunities that you can take.So I'll take her advice if I ever do decide to write that book.I'll I'll clear the decks.Yeah, it'll help out.Why the two parts do the title?Why you're going to get peed on sort of a silly started in the serious message in the book?
What does that you're going to get peed on represent for you?Well, I mean it's factually pretty true figuratively and literally, if you're, you gonna get dry mode and be done, it's gonna be all sorts of bodily fluids for me, what that title represents was was kind of, I guess, we'll say.
The straw that broke the camel's back in a sense and I love cats.I love working with cats and I don't even mind fractious catch like, I kind of was like, you know, kind of understand like okay, they're a little bit frustrated right now.But yeah, there was one cat one day in practice, it was a tomcat doing the classic playing pretty coli but then Springs into action and I remember he he's scratching and biting in R1 he kind of was flying through the air One tech kind of caught him midair and like his momentum, swung him around.
And I was standing there with the syringe in my hand and I literally just get covered in tom, cat, pee, and even in my mouth, that was like, I've been peed on a lot, but I think that was the first one that like, literally went in my mouth.
And I was like, wow, it's funny apparently because I worked with a company to help me like get this book along.Apparently, when you write a book, the title is the last component, right?Like, you write the book.And then out of that book, a title appears, I was the exact opposite.
When that happened, I was like knew immediately, I was like, I'm going to write a book called, you're going to get peed on right.And then the book came came after from that moment, I'm still curious about why that?Because it get it.As you say, factually accurate, you will get peed on.
But what does it represent?Is it a I'm guessing that it's a yeah there's gonna be some stuff about this career that is going to be challenging and interesting and then one like why?Because it so that's almost a I wouldn't say it's a - title but it has a like yeah, this is going to be hard but I feel like your book is very much of a positive book, any more of a let's make it work.
Yeah I think on to that end it's about, you know and again I am a really positive person.Like, I like to see what the challenge is, and then quickly get over to the other side of.Okay, how do we navigate that challenge?
And I know when I was coming through and decided to be a vet, I maybe wasn't aware of the challenging side of the coin, right?It's not that anyone was hiding it from me.I was just really caught up on the like, the more romanticize side of the equation, right?
Where everyone is.I talked to is like I'm going to be a veterinarian and they just, you know, they're just love it, they're just so happy for you and it is amazing profession.I just felt very under prepared.That there is the other side of the coin where you are going to get peed on, right?
And so that's kind of the two parts of that title.Okay, cool.Now I get it.It's good, it's sort of a look.There's some realities about this.They are going to be some challenges and you're going to get a.Peanut is a good description of all the stuff that's going to happen.
You kind of get shouted at you, going to get all these things.But yet fulfilling and you could live it in a way that it's not a nightmare and make it a positive experience.I like the look and again getting beat on getting and getting dumped.Get paid your mouth and ready to speak makes because stories, right?
That's Keeps lifebuoy adjusting and then the working less than earning more component of your book.It does that around.Does that explore the real estate investing?Why do you talk about it in the book?In that case because that grabs my attention?
If I'm a young waiter and I'm deciding to read a book that's saying work less and earn more, I'd be like yep yes I'm in.So I do touch on investing a little bit.Not I don't go like super granular detailed in the like how To investing, because I think what's much more important is early on?
Is just the context around you, no money conversations and investing.So my goal with the book it set up where roughly the first two thirds talk about various challenges in your Veterinary career and the last third gets into that money piece and I think like one of the greatest Services I can do for the veterinary industry is trying to encourage more people to consciously have those conversations.
Stations like have the money conversation that you and I just had have an investing conversation, you know reach out to certified financial planners and just take charge of it.Get intentional about that finance and money peace in your life, right?
Because as we've said, you know it's going to affect your life whether you pay attention to it or not.So the goal in my book is to just change the context to go from.You told me a story earlier where you said, I don't remember.Who it was, but I don't care about money to go from that sort of a pathetic approach to, okay?
Money is just this neutral tool that I can use for my benefit if I want that doesn't have to be a negative thing.I'm not taking, I'm not causing harm to someone else because I'm having money, and I can use it to really enriched my life and those around me.
Yep.And I think that's such a valuable message to get out there again and again, For me personally and it might just be me but part of the enjoyment of part of that shift from I don't like read that much to.I actually quite enjoy the work came when I got into a position where I could disconnect, how much I worked based on how much I owed the bank.
I always, I would say that the bank is probably the worst bus that you can ever work for. if the frequency of your shifts and how much you work and how burnt-out you are, is determined by how much you need to earn, That's not a recipe for a good vet career, if you can go, well, I work because I enjoy it and the money is at least to some extent taken care of.
I've primary reason for going to work is not the money, massive shift.Massive massive, emotional shift that whole story changes, for me, personally that it in lots of the conversations.I have, it's exactly the same.Where veterinarian is truly want to help.
They truly love what they're doing.They just found themselves in a situation where they're doing too much of it, right?If they could just turn that dial down a little bit, they'd be in a much better spot.And one of those components is having their financial affairs in order.
Yeah, I always tell the story.I'm a very keen surf like that.It's one of my first loves and I don't feel like I could ever get enough of it.And yet I have gone on a trip on a 10-day surf trip.Where by date I was kind of sick of it.
I just I went I don't really feel like surfing anymore.I'm sitting there on the beach looking at these perfect waves going.I'm exhausted.My body's tired and I just don't want to do it today and if I could feel that way about my passion then how the hell is it not going to happen?
How do we expect that not to happen for something as challenging as virtually science?Yeah.One last story because it's to fitting is, as I mentioned I have a three and a half year old daughter.So those are the nighttime stories that were reading.And she has this one story called yummy yucky, right?
And for most of the story, it's going along, the lines of french fries.Are yummy, worms, or yucky.But there's one page in there that says ice cream is yummy too.Much ice cream is yucky and I was like, this is amazing.Like this is exactly life, right?
We can have a good thing and then we just do too much of it to the point that it becomes yucky.I don't know about that, right?Kind of feel like ice cream.It's got to be the one exception to that rule.I would think I'm like a big ice cream fan.So yeah, it's got to be a lot ice cream to be the actor is the point where ice cream is yucky.
But again, maybe I just have it tested that theory.Mike, how are you for time?Because I have another question that's potentially fairly big.Yeah, you're good.Okay, so, let's jump in.So, I looked at your book and at the homepage, for your book and in the visit, I think it's the blurb around the book.
There's a line that I was curious about, and we find it in my notes between the never-ending stream of appointments constant decision-making, and empathy exhaustion the reality of It goes on along those lines but the word in there that I want to pick out, is empathy exhaustion.
That's an interesting phrase.Why empathy exhaustion and not compassion, fatigue, or burnout?Was that a thoughtful decision?Or was it just something that the editors put in there?It was certainly intentional.
So for most of my Veterinary career, empathy fatigue, and compassion, fatigue were used interchangeably, right?Like one in the same.Same.And it wasn't until like, in the process of writing this book, I started to do a little bit of research and around that, and that's what I started to tease apart.
It was actually one of the professors at our local University, and she had gone on the Deep dive of teasing apart, empathy versus compassion, right?And she has some really interesting research around how it's actually empathy that will fatigue, right?
Whereas, whereas compassion does not because when you look at you, no MRIs of the brains in various circumstances.Inches, you know, compassion can actually be like rejuvenating to you, right?It's not triggering the distressed.Distressed Pathways in the brain such as as empathy as so compassion, when we look at it is feeling for someone, right?
Like if you were in pain currently I would say oh I you know, I see that you're in pain and I feel for you and I wish you not to have that whereas empathy, if I saw that you were in pain, I'd be feeling with you and I could potentially be starting to take that pain on and now I'm feeling pain also.
And that's the part that over a career, you know can be depleting and can lead lead to burnout.That's so interesting because I'm currently down a big rabbit hole.I'm working on a talk that I'm delivering later in the year that I've got this idea about empathy versus compassion, based on a book that I read by Professor Paul Bloom from Yale where he argues that Kathy's not necessarily what we want, because empathy in his definition, is I recognize your suffering.
And I feel your suffering, which is a negative emotion.This is what he calls compassion and we can talk about the semantics.But compassion being I recognize yourself offering, maybe I feel it, but I want to do something about it and I do something about it, which becomes a positive emotion.
Which then made me wonder with talk about compassion?Fatigue?Is it actually compassion fatigue?I don't know.Do you have any thoughts on that?And I am, I've lined up a recording session with psychologists who did a lot of research in this.So, watch this space.But, yeah, your thoughts Mike?
Yeah.I mean, this is just my thoughts on it.Is I, I mean, I, I do think, There's only so much.Like if the day is jam-packed, even feeling for someone and feeling compassion, you know, sometimes you just need a break.But what I found it is like that empathy, but it was really when it slipped into the empathetic distress.
Like that's what really added the mileage on, you know.Like like you said, when you're locked into feeling with someone and Paralyzed by that pain, right?That that was the big stuff for me that would leave it where it's like, oh man, that was only one case.
But it felt like 20.I can't end up some research articles along because it was like, fascinating.And from that, you know, that sent me personally on a bit of an off shoot towards mindfulness-based stress reduction, which was just a form of medic meditation.
But I found that to be like tremendously helpful for me personally, and when you look at the research behind it, tremendous value for everyone.But for, especially for veterinarians and Healthcare.Fighters.Yes.So the whole point of the Toca want to do is exactly that and I'm sure you came across the same sort of data is that specific kinds of meditation can literally change how your brain responds, how those Pathways light up.
So you mentioned that the empathy responses in a certain part of your brain.And that compassion response that I want to act response is in a completely different part of the brain and the people that default to the empathy response, They can buy those types of meditation.
So, for example, loving-kindness meditation, or Metta meditation can actually shift, and this is shown on functional MRI.It's not just people think that this happens.I've proven it.They can shift down there.The respondent neurologically.Isn't that fascinating stuff that neuroplasticity of going?
Well, this is my default reaction.This is who I am.I can't help, but not true.You can actually change something about it.Yeah, it's like training a muscle in the gym like in that same research, the MRI will show like physical parts of the brain expanding other parts, decreasing in size.
And so the coolest part is like, you don't have to be in a meditative state in that moment, right?You get to carry the benefits with you right into the veterinary clinic, right?So you can have this meditation practice be building on it, but then when you're just spontaneously thrust into these highly, She'll situations.
That's your new default, right?And you just keep building on it.So it is.It's fascinating fascinating stuff.So do you talk about it in the book?How to deal with compassion empathy?Those sort of things is that part of the stuff that you cover?Yeah, I bring in some of that research write and I obviously it's all cited, you know, really.
It's, it comes down to a few sort of simple things, you know, listening and changing your perspective.So just like we talked about earlier on the money Side of things in every aspect of life.People have this background story that we know nothing about, right?
And so you can't expect to be in your exam room with your client and fully understand them without fully listening to them, right?And changing their perspective.And then I do go into the mindfulness-based stress reduction.That is like one of those things where I feel like I could stand on my desk and jump up and down.
And if I could just snap my fingers and have like, Like every veterinarian and every Veterinary student in the world, like, do one tactical thing, it would probably be that, right?Some yeah, some form, you know, and it's going to look different for everyone, but that specifically, the mindfulness-based stress reduction practices, you know, and in a nutshell, this is probably not the official definition, but it's just being completely present and observing your surroundings in a non-judgmental way.
Right?Because, you know how quickly people snap to judgment.You know, I use an example, you walk into the treatment room and one of the IV pumps is beeping and we immediately make a judgment okay who didn't plug it in, okay?Who didn't put a full bag on her?Whatever the Judgment might be mindfulness-based, stress reduction would just teach you to Simply observe the IV pump is beeping, okay, there's no judgments around that, right?
We haven't placed blame on anywhere.We haven't told ourselves any made up.Story, it's just beeping.Now, we'll go deal with that.Mike, unless we want this to be our first ever video episode, which maybe we should just go for it, right?
We should probably start wrapping up.So let's start with my wrap-up questions.I'm assuming that your podcast listener, I don't think I've ever met anybody who makes a podcast.He doesn't listen to podcasts.Yeah, I am for sure.I I don't listen to our own anymore.I used to listen to all of them and then I was like, oh man, it's just something about hearing your own voice but pretty But I do go in waves.
So what I do is every quarter of the Year, I'll pick a topic and I will Deep dive that.And so if there's a podcast that aligns or a book that aligns or maybe it's a YouTube channel that aligned.So currently, as we wrapped up q1 of 2023, I was moreover in the YouTube space and I was deep diving dr.
Benjamin Harvey, who's an organizational psychologist.So I know you'd asked for Or a recommendation.And that that was what I had spent, you know, the first part of 2023 consuming, I like that a bridge actually because otherwise you'll consumption of stuff can be a little bit scattered in bit all over the place and I personally find it sometimes that there's so many thoughts and so many things coming from so many angles, it can almost become a little bit overwhelming.
So I really liked that sort of a thematic approach that you've got.Yeah, I'm part of a mastermind.There's six of us, we meet every Monday.So we met earlier.Earlier today on the recording.So for Q2 2023, we're going to Deep dive longevity.Right?
So we've ordered a few dirty as new book, He's a medical doctor on longevity, you know, and so will consume podcast episodes and YouTube channels all around longevity for those three months.Can I just dial it again?How cool?That is.The fact that you get to do this, the fact that you're part of this Mastermind, which I could ask you about it.
Sounds really cool.In fact, did you learn all these other things and nerd out on Longevity?If you're still in that clinic that you went to on day one and you were working 50 hours a week because you had to, you wouldn't be doing these things because you'd have your head would be stuck in your workspace and then get home, you'd be exhausted and you would have no mental capacity to Or what else life has to offer?
Yeah.Yeah, it is it is pretty cool and it is like embracing like there's a part of me that's a nerd, you know?Like I and I love learning and I love going deep on different topics.Like in 2020, one of my deep, Dives was breathing, right?So I read a lot of James Nestor and that's when the mindfulness-based stuff came in.
And again, it was like the breathing Deep dive was arguably, I would say life-changing, you know, there's just so much interesting information out there.So specific breathing exercises, Like this conversation, I think in going for, at least the next hour, just talking about this.
Yeah, you know, super nutshell, it's just approaching how most people breathe and most people breathe incorrectly, right?Like if we were doing it completely properly, you're going to be driven much more by your diaphragm, right?
That big sort of up and down breath.But over time, a lot of people get condition where we're actually breathing more just through like our ribs and our chest.Muscle, right?So we're breathing out your end.Then you actually are only using a portion of your lung capacity there, right?
I work with a personal trainer and he has a saying, if you can't breathe are, you can't be there?And it's like it just applies to everything.Like you can apply that to a client communication, you can ply to working out in the gym.You can apply to money conversations and like how you can control your breath, I find massively, dictates your ability to navigate various situations, right?
Because you think of what that thing about walking into a client exam room and they're angry for whatever reason?And they hit you with some, some sort of, you know, elevated tone of voice or something.You're immediately shortening, your breath, you're breathing through the top portion of your chest.You're having a bit of trouble talking a bit of a lump in the throat if you can control your breathing and just take that all down, like, use your diaphragm, breathe very deeply, it just calms everything, right and it's again, the situation didn't change.
All you changed was your relationship to the situation.Hmm.Okay, the process along question.So how this one works is we get the previous guests to give me a question that I had that I have to ask the next guest, you're going to have to answer that and then you need to give me a question that you want me to ask the next guest.
So the question for you is that if you had to restart your career as a fresh grad, but you had all of the skills in the knowledge that you have now, How would you create look different and by podcaster to podcaster?
I love that you do this.I love that a previous guest.Gets to lay the question.So that's pretty cool for me.The one that I came up with is, I would honor my standards and so I know there's there's a lot of talk, you know, people talk about what are your core values and such I like to view it a lot more, a standards.
And I think about in my clinical Journey, it would be the second Veterinary Clinic.I was at.So not the first one but the second.And if I was to change something, if I had the skills and the knowledge, I would have left that environment a lot sooner because it certainly wasn't to what my standard was.
Now the catch is back.Then at that age I didn't really know what my standards were right.And I mean and that's natural.Your kind of feeling things out and and feeling your way along, but I would have honored my standards a lot more.And so this was a situation.
In of, we had a really great Veterinary team but I would say we had a really poor ownership group that that did not treat us very well, and I accepted that far longer than I should have in hindsight.Do you know why?
Why didn't you leave?Um, I would say one was the Veterinary Group was truly X and we had this like, peer-to-peer mentorship going on.One of them, was a classmate of mine.The other one was like one or two years older than us.
So there was a group of three of us.Like all like cohesively learning together and that they were excellent.As for why I didn't leave, I would say confidence would be one, you know like sort of lack of Self worth when I think back to some of how how some of the like salary negotiations.
Went like it's comical, how like undervalued I was, and that I accepted it, right?Like, when I look back at that, I would, I would love to go back in time and slap me across the face.But I mean, that's part of the learning curve.So that's what I would take, though, if I was starting over, Yeah, the reason I dig into this is experience the same and I see it.
A lot is that we put up with shit that we shouldn't ride.And we make excuses and we have reasons, but I feel like it's usually just fear-based right fear of well, what if I don't get another job maybe this isn't that bad because maybe the next job will be just as bad and at least better the devil you know.
And then we get stuck in it or you go.Yeah I'm gonna leave, I'm gonna leave.I'm gonna leave.But again, it's, it's a hard decision.Asian to make.It's a hard thing to act on and then suddenly you open your eyes and five years of God and you go?How's that happen?And you have to sometimes get to the point where something dramatic happens.
We have to snap instead of just going well, you know, this isn't working for me.I don't want to waste my time in this situation, whether it's a job or something else.Even I'm going to move on, just be a little bit gray, just with it.Yeah, me and that, that same Mastermind group where we were recently, chatting about the Of when things are like okay or not, quite awesome, but they're not really bad, right?
And that doesn't create a high sense of urgency to change things.So in a weird paradoxical way, it would be way better if things were just way worse.Yeah.Because it would make you take action.Exactly.And I often wonder about that.How do you, how do you stimulate?
How do you simulate those conditions that often lead to massive change?Because almost every book or podcast, you listen to her.Read.There is a long drawn out story, and then there's this crisis point of some sort and then there's a big change and everything.Eventually is better in hindsight.
And I often go, well, we maybe skip that crisis Point.How can we skip it?And just get to the bed.But it is again about having that motivated to change that push.That's where I know.I keep going longer back to when you said that.What am I listening to?What am I deep-diving?
So with that dr.Benjamin Hardy One of the theories that he has is, how do you make that transformation?Is you make your future bigger?And so, we just finished, reading his book 10x is easier than 2X and the basic premise in there.
Is you know if I wanted to double whatever it is that I'm trying to double the logical thing would be to.I'm just going to work harder.I'll put more time in.If I put in double the effort, I'll get double the result.That's pretty logical.And his theory is you need to throw all of that out the window and you have to ask How would you 10x wherever you are?
Because there's very few past that'll lead you to 10x.You're actually going to have to throw out most of the options.And so the key to doing 10x is not doing more, it's actually doing less, and it's figuring out.You know, what are those critical few things to focus on and then going all in on that?
Hmm, excellent answer.So what is your question for our next guest?Okay, my question I'm leaning on the question.I was asking I may be expanding on it for your next guess I would sort of paint the frame of okay, we look into the future and at their 85 year old self.
And my question for them is, what advice would their 85 year old self give to them today?Whoo, that's good.One, I immediately want to know what your answer is but I can't.I will have to leave it lie there and we'll pass it on to the next guest.
So the final question Mike is you have an opportunity to speak to all of the veteran, a new grounds of the world.Maybe it's through some other end podcast called the VIP project and you have a couple of minutes to give them just one little bit of advice.What is dr.
Mike's one bit of advice I would just say to them.They have the Front of them to create whatever life they want and they don't need anyone.Elses permission to do that, right?They don't have to follow anyone elses shoulds but they do need to get intentional about that.
So they need to figure out what is it that I truly truly want.And how can I put that in action, get intentional and start delivering on that day to day?That that would be the biggest thing.I just see too many people, as you said earlier, jump in the river and just sort of It along wherever it takes him.
And it's like I'm kind of pounding on our microphones being like grab a boat, grab a paddle.It'll take you wherever you want.Mike, that was as good and better than I'd imagined.It was an absolute pleasure meeting you and thank you so, so much for the things that you're doing for doing a podcast for your labor of love.
And for writing a book, I'm sure it'll be a lot of people out there who take a lot from it.And I really, really appreciate your time.Likewise was great to meet you.Thank you so much for having me.I love having these conversations when we get a little bit off script and get into some real real good stuff.

Dr Mike Bugg