May 26, 2023

#93: Reasonable residencies, success through self-knowledge, and filling buckets. With Dr Anna Dengate.

#93: Reasonable residencies, success through self-knowledge, and filling buckets. With Dr Anna Dengate.
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Season 1

Have you ever considered, or are considering specialising, but you are put off by the journey of becoming a specialist? Usually the path to specialising means putting almost everything else aside for 3-5 years. But what if there was a different way?

Dr Anna Dengate is a medicine specialist, and she's convinced that there could be an alternative path, and in this conversation she helps us to explore what that could look like. Anna's own career journey hasn't quite followed the the norm. After graduating from Sydney Uni in 2008 her path has meandered its way through several roles: intern, wife, resident, PhD candidate, GP vet, Member of ANZCVS, mum of 1, founding partner in a specialist hospital, Fellow of the ANZCVS, mum of 2, and resident supervisor. Most recently, Anna has been providing specialist medical and ultrasound services to GPs through her business The Vet's North. She also provides ongoing learning opportunities to wider groups of vets with teaching in ultrasound & online medical rounds, and has a new social impact project under development & is working on ways to integrate people with disabilities & traumatic backgrounds into the animal-care industry to increase diversity & inclusion.

Join in for a conversation around what more inclusive residencies could look like, how Anna made it happen for herself, the importance of getting to know yourself for creating a career pathway that fills your bucket, finding the balance between pushing yourself enough for growth without reaching breaking point, and much much more.

Topic list:

03:37 The relative rarity of female veterinary specialists with children.

04:16 Anna's journey through qualification, specialisation & having kids.

08:09 Having a newborn while studying.

11:59 Being prepared to fail.

13:38 Are institutions more supportive for part-time residencies now?

14:30 The barrier to specialising: to be a specialist or have a family?

15:05 Is specialising worth it?

16:31 More on barriers - from vet to specialist, the system is set up wrong.

18:18 Why can't we do it part-time?

20:18 The culture in specialist clinics that does not prioritise balance.

24:42 Givers, Takers & Matchers - who is the most successful?

25:56 The difference between successful vs unsuccessful Givers.

26:44 Can we change the profession & it's lack of boundaries, or is it up to us to know ourselves & our limits?

29:04 Coasting vs striving.

33:10 The benefits of making mistakes & getting to know yourself.

37:17 Negativity bias & how it affects the resilience in the vet industry.

48:37 Focussing on the positives & building resilience.

50:54 How empathy plays a role in resilience.

51:22 Empathy vs compassion - is empathy a bad thing?

53:47 Compassion fatigue vs burnout.

59:50 The connection between teaching & bureaucracy.

62:30 What's Anna excited about in the vet world?

67:49 Anna's education programs.

71:56 Anna's favourite podcasts.

73:28 How would Anna's career look different if she knew the things she knows now?

74:52 Anna's advice for new grads.

 

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Anna's Business - The Vet's North

How many of you have considered, or maybe are considering specializing, but your put off, by the Journey of actually becoming a specialist because let's be very clear choosing that path.Usually involves putting pretty much everything else on hold for a good five on his other interests, Hobbies laser, but also relationships romance kids, but that's just the way it is, isn't it?
But does it have to be what if there was another way?What if internships and residencies were structured in a way that would allow you to live a relatively normal life with dime.For other stuff that allows let's call it balance.Would be lower the bar for becoming a specialist too much would be produced Specialists who were worse at their job, dr.
Anna Den gate is a medicine specialist and she is convinced that there could be another way.And in this conversation, she helps us to explore these questions.He and his career Journey has been a bit different to the norm after graduating from Sydney Union. 2008 her path meandered its way through several roles in turn, wife, resident, PhD, candidate unfinished, general practitioner for a while.
A member of the Australian, New Zealand College of Veterinary surgeons.Small animal medicine mother of one founding partner in a specialist Hospital.Fellow of the Australian, New Zealand College of Veterinary surgeons in small animal medicine.I've to and Resident supervisor most recently, and it has been providing specialist medical and ultrasound services to local General practices through her business.
The Vets North, and she provides ongoing learning opportunities to a wider group of it with teaching, an ultrasound and online, medical round sessions.She's also working on some incredibly cool stuff around social impact through a social impact.Fellowship, as well as working on ways to integrate people with disabilities and from traumatic backgrounds into the Animal Care industry.
To increase, diversity and inclusion.In our profession.What did we say the beginning of this intro?What if there was another way, right?By the way, if any of this gets you excited, let us know and we'll put you in touch with Anna or check out what she's doing at vets North.com.
So there you in this conversation we chat about what these different ways could look like, our animated happen for herself and we take d 2 is into how and why the predictors of success and longevity in a career.Don't necessarily match up.The what we select for and train for, we talked about the importance of, getting to know yourself in creating a career path, that fills your bucket, finding a balance between pushing yourself enough for growth without reaching breaking point and much, much more.
Before we jump in, we're doing a bunch of fun live sessions over the coming weeks and months.We talking live podcast a session on AI in the red profession and a conference in the snow.I'll tell you all about these at about the 20 minute, Mark of this episode or you can just check out.
All the links in the show descriptions.Okay, back to dr.Anna Den gate.Welcome to the ventral podcast.Thank you so much.
You were recommended by listening that we said you're a bit of a legend and a bit of an inspiration.So I had to get in touch and figure out.Why are you a legend an inspiration?And I look forward to finding out why?Oh, gosh, I hope I live up to it.Do you know, I got my suspicions.
Sure, I did.I as soon as you approach me, obviously, I asked who said that.And I think there's there's quite There's not very many, female specialist with family, and I think the person who recommended me sort of thinking about going down the specialty route and is not wanting to compromise on family side of things and I think that's probably why I've inspired her.
And certainly, my career is not taken the average path from graduation.So hopefully people can see that there's options outside of the usual pathway and maybe that's it.We'll see ya.Let's jump straight into that thing.Raise the point of specifically special item, it's hard enough being a full-time veterinarian with family but then specializing as well with young kids.
We talked before you've got a six-year-old from the nature of.Where does that fit in with your career Journey?Like, talk us through qualification specialization reproducing.Once it's, yeah, it's definitely not easy, but it's always been a priority and it was not negotiable for me.
Having kids I did It's that science as a post-grad so I did medical science first and then transferred into vet.So I graduated at 25, then I'd been nursing in a Specialist Clinic throughout my Veterinary degree and went straight into an internship from there.
Then decided not to specialize and went into general practice and I was really lucky.I think Lucky in that a Specialist Clinic that I've sort of worked with one of the people from the clinic, previously, I dream my intern.A ship and would work really well together and they had a resident who started and then dropped out of the program three months in right as both the other resident and the supervising specialist.
We're going on holidays together so they have lost the resident and the only two, other two people within the medicine Department were going on leave together and then you add a bit of background, so I think they sort of offer me a residency and said, what are your terms?And I said, I'll do four days a week and I won't do weekends and they said, yeah, sure, no worries.
The norm is that very unusual to have those sort of terms, very unusually nose day.So we're probably talking this is 2008 ish and the conditions typically With Private Practice residencies in Sydney there was like one come up every two or three years and they were five days a week and there were 16 hour days and you worked every other weekend and you were on call all the time.
So they were pretty atrocious conditions which wasn't really.It just wasn't really doable in my life.So I think I was just really lucky that they really need.Did someone with a little weird background and enough to get to work independently off the bat.And so, I ended up taking the residency box working with them.
And they were, they were really nice group of people.So glad I did it, but then actually finished my residency and then went to days specialist.And today's GDP because I've never really had that GPX.Perience.And is my emergency work to write that.So just think I'd love to dig into our decision-making.
So let's backtrack.So internship was the internship with a view of specializing or was it just looking around and deciding what Like did you just say it out on your internship thinking?I think I might want to specialize.Yes.I would say yes.Absolutely.I had some really good role models in the clinic that I started my internship in and then as that my internship unfolded, the clinic sort of broke down, I lost a lot of my kind of the people who would really mentors to me moved on, either out of practicing as a specialist, or moved into kind of Academia.
So I was very motivated to specialized but only because I had those examples and And I wasn't really willing to do it.Do a kind of a program where I really had to compromise my support network and my life outside of the veterinary industry.
Unless I had really good mentors that had lifestyle and things that I also admired.Does that make sense?Yeah, totally.I like it a lot.And at this stage were was family, just a thought?Or was it actually on the was actually imminent at this state?So I was probably 27 and got married in my internship year and wanted to have kids.
The next sort of three years or so.So I guess sort of imminent.And certainly within the time frame that I would have been in my sort of active training program or preparing for exams.It was always going to be in that timeframe decal.So, you went, didn't, you know what I want to specialize because the opportunity to have a balanced residency and have a family doesn't exist and then that opportunity actually my nephew came across the opportunity.
That's it actually know you can.You can do both of those in this particular Residents, yeah.All right.Yeah.And they didn't.Did you have kids during your residency or after I had my first Joe, I think like six months after I finished my residency.So I'd gone into private and to general practice was doing two days.
General factors in two days, specialist when I had him.Yeah, it we still study at that stage.I always, I wasn't that obvious reasons.He's always funny.Yeah, so finish the way that sort of the Private Practice, residencies worked at that point, you didn't really do, Research during residency has you didn't have time and he didn't really study during your residency because you are flat-out meeting, you clinical requirements, caseload and things.
So I sort of did my research articles like published my papers and things, you could have to publish three papers at that point in the two years.After my residency and still studying, throughout that time getting ready for exams.And then went into had Joe.
When I set my membership, exams, I took maternity leave and study leave at the same Time.And then set my fellowships the year after that.So you were studying memberships, and they finish tips with that.What 11 22 year old?Maybe I'm bored.Yeah, I like your voice.
Yeah, good times.And I thought about this so much because people sort of say, oh, how did you do it quite often?And this was being having a baby is one of the only legitimate times where you get to the opportunity to step back.
And really prioritize think about whether you're doing things the right way, and whether you feel like you've got enough balance and I think it was a bit of a gift at that point to have a legitimate reason to be home in the mornings and evenings because I was studying and particularly, when kids are young and my Joe had some health problems when he was little, with increased intracranial pressure and things.
And I could, I just couldn't work the length of days that were required in a specialist clinic.And you do not see him morning or evening.What like, Be able to, at least check on him.It just was absolutely completely not negotiable for me.So I would have had to, I guess quit but because I was studying, I had a legitimate reason to stay home.
So it was it was a good opportunity and it worked out well in the end.Yeah I see what you mean right.I'm still fascinated with actually studying with the baby in the house with everything.And that's I mean that's a high need that they know, lower ditch and like how did you physically if we're anybody who might end up in the situation?
Do you have any tips or advice?On.How do you manage raising young baby with hours and hours of study?Don't do?I can't even sit.Do you really?Most people can't even sit down for five minutes to watch TV with the baby?That was never my study.Yeah, so I like there were so many tools that I used and I, you know, this sort of I've got so many recordings of Edinger chapters of me, just reading it out at night.
And then I used to walk for hours and hours, listening to it.But really, I think the key is, don't do it on your own.So if you go To go down this pathway.You need to have a social support network and emotional support network, which is going to get you through it because you can't do it without them.
And I'm lucky in that my husband's really supportive work full-time as well.But weekends and things like I'd sort of start studying evening or start studying at 5 a.m. and then we sort of do shifts and he technically, Joe out for the whole day in the pan, just walk laps.
So that I had the day to myself at home, with my books on staff, both sets of parents, my husband's parents and my parents are pretty involved in the kid's life.Some would take them to two hours at a time here and there or full days.Once I got to crunch time and stuff.It's, there's no way you could do it on your own, she should still.
And what about sleep?You have a good sleeper at least because I'd be a damn thing of, right.I think of the amount of sleep that you have to survive on and then trying to actually use your brain with something useful.Yeah.So there were again, sort of valuable lessons you learn in the process of doing tough things.
So, because of my son's neurological problems, He was born with a few skulls called craniosynostosis and he had to have a skull reconstruction when he was just turn one and two, the first time I set my fellowship exams, he was waking up.
He just had this surgery for months before and was waking up every you remember sleep cycles from when you kids were at all?Do ya?Every 45 minutes, I could set a clock by it, and I sat these exams and I was so disappointed that I failed, but I was not surprised at all.
Brian was not functional at all during that period I have to kind of look back when I go, what were you even thinking sitting?But it was I was prepared to fail.It was a good opportunity to stay home and study and at least get my study notes in order.And then the following year I passed all worked out.It's just a practice round.
Yeah.Breakfast.And I like I like that attitude of I was prepared to fail.Yeah.Since till the disappointment.Look it's disappointing.Yeah I mean and it's costly, they know it's such a luxury to indulgent I think is the word.Word to take 3 months of unpaid leave to study, which is how it just had the conditions that it was back then.
And I think there's organizations now doing it a lot better but three months unpaid study leaves sitting around, sort of learning for three months and pay five thousand dollars to the opportunity to sit in exam two years running and kind of anticipating that's going to be the case.But again having kids is a nice opportunity to step back, reassess your budget, most people have budgeted to live on one income for a while when they have kids so it was the new best opportunity.
Yeah, mix in yeah, the key thing in your story.Sound like a the well mainly the place where you did your residency, through name being acceptable and you said a couple of times, it was non-negotiable non-negotiable the way that you had to do it and he said, it wasn't the norm in those days for places to have residencies.
And then to be that support of worth taking time off and everything.Is that change?Is it becoming more?If somebody's listening to this going?Well, right, I'd love to find a place like this.So, is it more common for it to be structured like that?Now, not really?No, not at all.
Now there's any one place in Sydney.That I know of that will take part-time interns, most of them are at least four days a week plus weekends.And if you think about the time frame, now, that that's post-grad in Sydney, a lot of people, even if they go straight from uni into an internship or not, finishing the internship 2025 and then if they want to specialize, it's a minimum three years, active training, and they usually a year of kind of publishing and studying.
So, that's See a doctor.What?29, 30 best case scenario and you probably have an invested a lot in your relationships and things to that point because you've been so focused on Career.So I think where there's definitely a barrier to specializing if you want to have a family and as a female you look down the barrel of that timeline and just go yeah, it's not going to work.
I'm not going to bother.So I don't think I think we're probably under under detecting how much of a barrier it is.So is it worth it?Has it been with With it for you even kids about it.Whether it's worth it or not, that's the not having kids.
It's just terrified that?Yeah, I think so.But to only at a certain cost.So like I said, there were advantages to me taking that time off.I was going to be on maternity leave anyway.So might as well use that study leave sort of unpaid leave to get somewhere and it's opened up so many doors for me.
I mean, when I This is was invited to be a partner of this new Specialist Hospital, seven years ago.And I think I would have had that opportunity.If I hadn't taken those risks and put in that effort, I've got opportunities that other people wouldn't have within their career.
That provide me.The flexibility, I want to sit with my family boundaries in that my current role going into clinics and doing medical Consulting, GP clinics, doing medical Consulting in ultrasounding.I can set an online schedule, people can book online and I can open up as much or as little of the day as I want and I would never have that opportunity if I didn't have that special word.
Find my name's.Yeah, yeah, yeah.So yeah, I think so but I wouldn't have said, again, I wouldn't have done the fellowship exams or third time, if I told grow, okay, the time unless you get the, I thought you meant.Well, we'll get back to this question.Put it on ice valet.Yeah, those berries are interesting.
The, the barriers to entry when it starts with, it's cool, right?Let's get this back.Is to becoming a bit.And then someone's higher barriers to between where you are and becoming a special.What do you think of those?Are they necessary?
Is that just the way it is or is it is the potential there for it to change?Yeah.What are your thoughts about so shaking my head?So kicking forgetting, he can't see me.I, I think it's just set up so wrong.I think firstly, I think we're training specialist at can't relate to the majority of clients that they're seeing.
Cuz we're selecting for people that aren't prioritizing family and it was, it's not for everybody.It is actually for most people and and when you just look at the science or the stats on mind that most people will have kids, which makes them.I think one of the really important skills as a specialist is, developing trust between your client yourself.
And if the client can't relate to you at all, then that's going to.Be course, you can be an amazing special, some not have kids, but if you've had that experience, you can relate to the clients better.I think the most amazing vets I've worked with without a doubt.Are those that have really good work-life balance and the ones that have interesting stories and lives outside of vet, but again, make them more relatable to clients and I think if we're, we're pulling people out of their social support networks, and often making them relocate.
Because they're passionate about specializing.They moved to the states or the move to Europe, or they move to a different city in Australia, because that's where the opportunities are.We take them out of their comfort zone away from their support.Works and the resilience drops as a result of that and then putting them through a really tough program and they come out the other end a bit broken and worse for it.
Why can't we do this part time?Like I had no time to study.No time to write it my research paper when I was actually in my residency and we know that the duration.So if you finish your residency is a longer, it takes you to sit your exams the more likely you are to fail.So we need people sitting exams as close to the end of their residency as possible to improve the Test right?
Of the fellowship program and yet we've got this structure that doesn't let people do those things, concurrently, but if we had people in clinic part-time and working flexible hours and research and study the rest of the week, then they're going to be better specialist by the end of the going to pass through the higher pass, rate of exams, and they're going to have more balance and be more relatable for clients and peers and more resilient because it's not easy.
So many advantages to part-time programs, I think it's free, so but I'm programmed.You means.Specifically The Residency program, resin yeah, residency program, for sure.Yeah.But any internship or training program, any opportunity for vets to further their knowledge because we're hungry people, right?
Anyone that's willing to work that hard through vet school is probably got a bit of a thirst for knowledge and then you graduate and everybody stops teaching you.But if we've got internship programs, that could be two days a week and people could still maybe do general practice, two days a week but feel like they're advancing their knowledge in a certain field, two days a week, the veterinary industry will be better for it.
The patients would be better for it.Sure.So would you have a to envisage it, a longer residency program, but integrated into that, some of the research and the other stuff but you talked about like your real perfect Residency program instead of three years full-time.
What you do five?Yeah.But I'm balanced one that doesn't break you and and integrate all of that into that program I think so.Yeah with a view to the exams sitting the exams at the end it We at the end of the program and having all of the requirements of the program fulfill before you finish, but having that active clinical training, right up until the exam time, it makes a lot of sense.
So why isn't it like that do know?Is there a reason?Is it just?This is the way it's done.Oh, I think unfortunately I think it's the people that are running the programs people that don't prioritize balance and family, okay.This one's a little him, it's sort of not all in with us if you don't like us and all in on this thing, Are we not for you?
And I said yeah, is that sort of the culture?Yeah, and I think that's the culture in a lot of Specialists clinics, particularly in Internal Medicine.I don't know if it's a sort of personality type or like the people that are providing the training, a sort of training people to be like that.But the culture of very long days, everywhere I've worked and most people I've spoken to people saying, back, perfecting their records and making sure the cases are tied in a bow and it's just not, it's not how how cases work really, is it?
Yeah.I really like this.This is really insightful because I'm what you described the and is probably why I didn't do it well because I would like everybody exactly.As you say you're curious person you like science, you want to be billiard what you do and often just right at the beginning, just looked at the specialist journey and just went nuts that mountain some too high to high mountain balance.
Exactly, as you say, I have a wife that I like, that's like to still have a three years from now and I To do, but a channel and it was just like, No.And in retrospect, like, there's some regrets you go.Well, maybe I should have done it.Exactly.As you say, the career opportunities that could have happened.
It's interesting that because we do that all the way from med school that culture of self-sacrifice.I like that these days, we're talking about well-being and taking care of yourself and setting boundaries, but then we go back to bed school and I don't know if it's changed now.But certainly in my day that was not what was taught and then was not informed was modeled at all.
It was we were modeled here.You're going to suffer and we're going to prepare yourself ahead because in your career, the expectation will be that you should still be self sacrificial in still be able to give give give give and just keep doing that.And then we surprised that people say, well I'm done with his business.
Quick break for a bit of housekeeping to tell you about some fun things we doing over the next couple of weeks and months, first thing on the 31st of May that's next week.Wednesday, if you are listening to this soon after we release it we are doing a live and in person podcast in Adelaide the team from very those are the guys who figured out a way to tie your patient data, including lab testing to your patients, existing microchip.
They've booked us an awesome Pub venue in the Heart of the City and we that's myself and Dorado are sitting down with the phenomenal no bullshit.Supercuts Allison Lambert from the United Kingdom to pick at the loose that is of this profession and see where it leads and we'd love you to join us.
If you are in a delight to ask your questions and contribute to the conversation, it's a free event but spots are limited.So click on the link in the show description to register your spot.We're doing prizes for best questions and comments.So bring your layout Mouse comments and your heckles with you, please Gerardo loves being tickled.
We also broadcasting this live.So if you can't be in Adelaide register on the join online Link that will put in the show.Description as well.Then the very next day on June.The first, we doing the official launch of our vet V network with a live online event, where we'll be talking about Ai.
And the veterinary profession will be speaking to runs leave as his bio is much too long and very to read here, but it includes a PhD in software, engineering and immersing himself completely in everything AI for the past year.It's a morning session with a 930, Australia eastern states time kickoff.
So if you can take a break from consults or if it happens to be a rough day, Day, we'd love you to join us, or if you're in the u.s., it should be in your evening.I think the link again will be in the show description and then finally, the Vets onto a snow conference.In one occur, New Zealand from 14 to 18, August will be there to do our clinical podcasting with the presenters which makes it into a very interactive event.
The theme for the conference is palliative care and oncology which I'm personally very excited to get to know more about.There's still a few spots available so book that last-minute, leave polish your snow gear and come and join us for what is well, known to be one of the most fun CPD events that you can do, okay?
I hope to bump into at least one of these things, but for now let's get back to Anna.I love this discussion to know, Adam Grant.Yeah, yes.So Adam Grant has done a lot of research on these sort of personality types, givers takers and matches.
Do you have, you know, that that research some no.Okay, he's classified people into three categories.There, givers, who tend to give a lot of themselves, regardless of what they getting back matches, who tend to give whatever they're given?So, if a person is really generous with them, they'll be really generous back, but if a person is really selfish and takes from them, then they're going to only match.
That contribution and takers, which sort of self-explanatory, right?And when you think about people in your life, you think I know that person.So who do you think of those three is the most successful most successful.Yeah.In terms of Career Success and financial success?
Yes.So Career Success inter, yeah, I think it is based on financial.This is financial and I want to say maybe the take is maybe people are happy to abuse other people do.Yes unfortunately, Ellie, yes.But half of the givers were as successful as the takers and other half of the givers were the least successful of all three groups.
So, they give us what split almost in half at the very top and the very bottom of this study.And the the difference, what differentiates this successful give a from an unsuccessful give our is their boundaries if they set clear boundaries and don't push them, they're going to be as successful as a taker, but much better.
Like so the to the lack of success in the non successful group is not from not doing enough, it is from basically burning out.I don't like to use that group if they spread its base, I can't give anymore and I can't succeed if I'm a wasted shell of a person.
Yeah, so I they've given all of themselves and they've kept nothing but sustains and allows them to keep on giving.So if you set boundaries and keep those social relationships intact and Put yourself in other ways.You've got more to give you fill your bucket back up.
And how do we do that in a battery dies and profession?No, I don't think so.And I think I get so much out as a Veterinary profession, but I know I've just turned 40 and I feel like I've I know myself really well and I think when I started my career I didn't but I know what fills me up now and what exhausts me and I'm a people person.
I really like the people Of the veterinary industry.And I get a lot out of helping them, so I do a lot of teaching and Consulting with vets, rather than with clients now and directly Consulting with animals, but that completely fills my bucket and, and allows me to be a giver without feeling like I'm compromising or emptying my bucket.
Does that make sense?Yeah.So what did it look like for you before you learnt to deny yourself before you got to know yourself?So think I've always been pretty good with boundaries like set.No sort of residency boundaries and things but there's definitely been times where I've dropped the ball.
Big time at home and there's nfortunately other people there to pick up the pieces and I've gone all.I'm going to have to step up and make sure that particular my husband who's often the peace, picker-upper, who make sure that sort of, I guess he gets an opportunity in his career now and I supporting through that, I take a step back and it's his turn, or it's going on a surfing trip next week because their last seven years, Of sort of me being involved in this business has been quite intense and I'm just in the process of stepping back from that.
So it's his turn.Yeah.I guess there's been times where I've pushed those boundaries too far and it's compromised other areas of my life but I've had to be kind of mindful of that conscious of that.And for myself, back a little bit and make sure that I'm returning the favor.So here's a question.
Now you've gone through the hard times, you push those boundaries and extended yourself and things were hard.And now you're you are at a I swear you can, are you starting to reap dividends of the if at you putting it is a not an unrealistic expectation to go.
Well I can have strong rounder he's from right from the moment I graduate and I can have a balanced life and have all these great things without ever putting in that extra mayonnaise.Is that from what you described, it's maybe too high a filtration process, but is it not necessary to some degree to say?
Well, the payoff, if you want to get to that next level?Oh yeah, you got to go through the zip code and talks about the dip of, mentioned it on everything.You got to go through the dip to get through the other side.And then once you get there, well then you can reap the reward.Yeah, I completely agree with that.So I I don't think you're growing unless you're feeling challenged and if it's not hard, it's probably not beneficial for you.
So, I mean there's times where it's good to coast and that's what you need, but it's probably the, you know, professionally, if you're coasting, it's probably because you've just graduated from Me and you're trying to establish some Financial Security and you're trying to find a home because the first time and you're trying to re-establish them social connections, you might not miss out on or you might have moved, you know, there's there's times where it's appropriate to coast in your career, so sure.
But I think if you're in a phase where you're quite stable outside of your career, then I I do agree that you should be pushing yourself but knowing what your boundaries are and what keeps you well and keeping those things in place in and Negotiating on them like that a lot because I sound people who I married to make his me sometimes of being lazy.
Because I like my comfort zone.Yes.I think so.Avoid hard work but I don't want to make like too hard for myself and I'm a big proponent of not having that whole attitude of well we suffered.So you gonna have to suffer so for the new graduates and all of that, but then I do sometimes worry that if it's too easy.
Like, can we make it?Too soft and too easy or can.The expectations be too high from people?Coming into the professional in the profession to say, well, we have all these conversations about wellness and balance and support of workplaces.And what point I don't know, I'm weary of sakes.
You can saying this and what point is it is it too much of work?When we go all this, it's people's expectations of what they're going to get coming.Straight out the door, there was a work-life balance in terms of earnings and all of that are too high and to their detriment in the long-term potential.ER oh, I like what?
I like you sort of gave me the answer to says, no, it has to be a little bit hard sometimes, but with I think and I think that's where we fall down sometimes this week in the past.It's been no, ground is.Yeah, it's hard and it's going to keep being hard and it's hard until you until you learn how to live with it or until you leave.
Yeah, I think that's such a hard question because I do think that the veterinary industry needed a big shift for sure.Do you agree?Yeah.Yeah.Of sin and made it exactly our tips.That's why it's kind of a podcast, which I was miserable being a lift if I had another opportunity.
Yeah.And you say that you're, you know, not a big fan of hard work, but you're doing something quite Innovative and different, which for requires a servant of research and whilst it might be suited to your strengths and not particularly challenging for you.It's still hard, right?Yeah.Yeah, they tease.I'm not lazy.
Yeah.I don't think so huge.And he grabs that, you know, Just see some of your I shall not cut out for this.You're never gonna make it.Yeah, I think there's roles for those kids kids God, I just got old just then, you know, the new grads because my I go into about probably 35 GP clinics and within that Spectrum, there is a job for every new grad that I speak to and there's some clinics that.
I don't know how they make any money, but that is for consults a day and they sit around studying and they have lunch or together.And it's that, it's so peaceful and lovely.And that's, that's just how they run.And there's new grads that would thrive in that environment.And then there's new grads that are bored out of their head in that environment.
I feel like picking them up and swapping them and putting them in better environments.But because we're such small businesses and these kids don't know what they're getting into.They take their job at their offered and they don't know what their strengths are.They don't know if they're great Consultants, they don't know if they want to be surgical vets but end up in the wrong environment and then going all the veterinary industry is not for me but there's so many options.
So how does one get to know oneself?How did you get to know yourself?Well, I made lots of mistakes.Yes, that's probably not far off it.I just try things sometimes without necessarily thinking them through and realize that it didn't work for me.
So, as an example, I specialize, not really being sure if I wanted to be a GP actually was leaning much more towards GP and fell into a default path.It felt like a good opportunity.And I will let that I'm medicine is definitely my Niche.
A really just makes sense in my brain.And it's, it's well and I find it easy to explain, which means that I'm sort of can work well with bets and clients.But what if I could have been a great surgeon who knows going back into GP, I actually found out that I passed out in surgery and I'm glad I made that made that decision to try it.
But that's sort of, I guess of the way that you learn about yourself as you put yourself in situations.Oceans, the challenge you and then you go all that didn't work well or that did work.Well and maybe I'll go down that path next time rather than trying to go down that path.Do you reckon?Yeah, I like that a lot.It is very much.
A when I spent a long time thinking about what else can I do?What should I do?I know I'm not a full-time GPU Vet, Clinic Elevate, that doesn't fill me and I like it, but not full time.And and then I think I over Thunk with, don't do it for those have authority to weigh too much for five years and trying to imagine what else or what else I should do.
And I think a lot of us do the same, with comes to specializing away that to dry something.Should I do it?Should I do it?Try and think of all the pros and cons and and work it out in your head but often you don't know until you try so exactly.As you say, do I hate being of it?I don't know.
Maybe it's this job.Try another job.Try a different job.Trying to connect trying different Try specializing Chinese and Chip and and if you're not sure, then try it and if you hate it then stop doing it and they got less and Leadville, I hate this.I often say to people in every situation and every every job in everything that you do look for lessons and often the lesson might just be oh I hate this - anything that you live but it's it's a valuable lesson and that's that's not a failure that's just getting, you know, I think that's vets, tend to sort of, you know, get to the end of a job and I, so bitter and twisted and they hate Korean, they feel terrible about myself because I've been working in environment and not suited to and it's really bad.
So they're self sense of self-worth and self-esteem and Sarah will for their future employment.But actually, if they did, could just take the emotion out of it and say, actually I just don't like Consulting for 12 hours at a time.It's a lot of words and I don't have that much in the tank.I want to go to a vet clinic that consults for for our blocks and does procedures for the rest of the day.
So you get a bit of a break from talking stuff like that.All right, by side when I do surgery and I should just do the talking.Yes, that's me.Yeah.So how did you not know that you pass that in surgery?It's is up qualifying.They don't have the ideas.
I thought it was just because I was standing really still I'm better when I'm doing surgery rather than when I'm assisting but I am when I was a specialist nurse must have been like my third or fourth day in this Specialist Clinic.I've scrubbed into the spinal.It was the first time I'd stopped in in this Clinic.
Worked in general practice nursing before but the first time described in his clinic and I'm holding the retractor and I just dropped a dropped backwards, not into the patient, but there are some secrets are that, they made me scrubbing and other three times before the student and the student scrubbing, it to say a tree.
Anyhow, we had a very old-school harsh surgeon lecture and he looked at me.He looked at me again, fail.And he said, you gotta find Please fight backwards knows anything.Just like, this is the colon to my patients, Anna, when we prepared for this and I asked would you like to talk about?
And what do you think about our profession?You used the words, the sentence negativity bias and how it effects the resilience in the industry, you're in, expand on that.What is negativity bias where we incentivize the way I understand.It is a propensity as a species to focus on the negative things.
That ignore all the Apes native positive things that accurate and and if so yeah.How does it apply in our profession than by this?You I think when I wrote that email I just been kind of battered by so many things going on.
We can't get stuff on.We gotta do this, we can't do that and it's so hard and we're, you know, business is dropping and I just had kind of been really overwhelmed with this attitude of this is a terrible.Industry so negatively biased as I understand it and certainly not my field.
But is that, you know, once you hear or see something negative and a lot of media, social media linked in a VA of press releases and things like that are very much, there's a staffing crisis, you know, quite dramatic wording that clinics closing people sort of hearing about, you know, not being able to staff nursing, she wasn't having a close clinics early and the impact on revenue and things like that.
But once you're in a mindset, That is the State of Affairs in the industry.It's all you can see.And you know, I had a couple of clinics that were saying oh we just can't find stuff that's a disaster.We're having to close at 5:00.We're normally open till 7:30 and you know, this is so bad for business.
Two said, I'll Crush worry advertising offers no point advertising because there's so many ads out there and I was just like, really, you can't say you can't get start off.If you're not even trying, you literally just taking it head down.So these sort of self that negativity bias is That self-perpetuating attitude within a group which is only going to exacerbate the problem.
But particularly know the people are complaining to me with a business owners.I want to just take a step back and just as a, you know, I've just been a partner and running a practice for last seven years.We're working in an economy, proof industry, that's not replaceable by anything else.
Their vets will always exist.They're completely required in so many different areas.And we're surrounded by really good people.And most of the people that get into veterinary science and stay in veterinary science are really Purpose.Driven.People who are motivated to look after animals and they're definitely out there.
You just need to think outside the box and not put an ad on kookaburra saying, nice Clinic next to the coast like putting that on kookaburra that says, we give a shit about you and your animals come here, you know, it's like just I don't know.I think I feel like people need to think outside the box.Box and stop being so sort of defeated and you know, mental illness in the industry and all of his stuff that people it's just, it's feeding itself now.
I feel like yeah, they talk about the echo chamber is that where you recreate an enclosed space?And we all say this, say the same thing and means you just hear the same things back being reflected back at you.Yeah.And then especially because you would now you have social media on top of it.And we also can make it and it does become that long as the self-perpetuating thing or a self-fulfilling prophecy, Wait.
Yes.Yeah, that despondency grows often think of a used to think of my my team and in terms of how, how your mood and Matt, what you saying, what you think influences, other people had this vision of the shift would start as a ton of white faint, and nice, and clean, and nice and clear.
And then all it takes is one person with a drop of negativity.Just the discoloration that makes us through that hole to the paint and everything starts going gray and blur.And it's the Same, definitely for the profession as well.It looks challenging II agree with you and I ran a business and it was hard but it was successful and I found ways to do it, but now I don't and things have changed.
So I'm low to make to make comments and judgment and say well who be able to do it.I don't own a clinic in this current environment side.I think it is hard but I agree.I think just focusing on all the negative things is not going to help anybody.
What are the solutions?How do you get?Out of that.Have you got any insights on how to shift from that mindset of?Oh, this is so bad for me to problem-solving mode.Oh gosh, that would solve a few problems.Wouldn't it?If I had since I was just I didn't.
Well, I think a lot of it is the echo chamber and I think any organization that are an authority within the veterinary industry and and I'm just using the word organization Loosely but it even the Australian veteran Network on Facebook.I think a very influential And I think any organization that are a source of information need to be really responsible about how they're providing that information.
And, you know, journalists are quite Bound by how they talk about mental ill health in this.There's a lot of science behind the terminology used the way that you speak about it and the balance between kind of stories regarding recovery and positive outcomes, having been through that process, which Facebook and, and less Structured organizations aren't using those same guidelines.
Do you know what I'm referring to when I say that if I were you?Yeah I actually heard a thing on the Triple J the other day.I mean what's the new iMac with?It talked about a phenomena that psychologists are sitting where people are coming in saying.I think I have this condition and then they say, why do you think that it was a?
Well, I'm seeing all these Tick-Tock videos, people talking about it and I have it is sometimes.Yeah, and then they do a full assessment and they go, well, they Yeah.They are some of those things that align with what you're doing.Albert.No, you don't have the darkness and the new almost a bit upset that I get, yes, I do because I'd see it everywhere around and I do I do that.
Did make me wonder, I do we do the same thing so it won't burn out of bed had been out and we talked about it.Hmm, more two more.Hopefully to clarify what exactly it is rather than to contribute to the echo chamber where the burnout or compassion fatigue, and we all talked about it and talked about it, and then it's that same thing of.
Well, I feel like that sometimes I must be bread down.Must be named your yes.Yeah.And and that's when they didn't thing.But actually, sometimes I come home at the end of the day, exhausted, but quite satisfied from having been busy.
I've learned something I've interacted with someone that was really rewarding and, you know, might have said, I did a great job or something.You know, being exhausted isn't necessarily a negative thing.Yeah, I like that.It's a shipped, its it.Do you agree that I mean this is not always easy and sometimes I'm weary of trying to dress up, Ginger, negative, emotions, and negative experiences with the Silver Lining just to trick yourself into.
Keep it going.But I feel like shifting from that negativity bias because that's your default, because that's the way we are made to look for the problems to get out of.That is a conscious effort of thinking, okay, but is that really true?Ask the question is what I'm feeling is that the truth or is that a feeling?
And if it's yeah it's not the true thing.What is the And I like that, what you say sometimes when you tie it at the end of a long day?I know that my didn't I took some old business this not a really long night shift and at the end of the shift that be nekkid and it would have been rough night and dramas and find dramas.
You know, it's feel that feeling of were so done and the ex-fiancé and blower, I'd sit there and then I would take five minutes before driving to go.Okay.Well, is that actually true?So especially the thought with his clients There's people of their stupid sick animals, so sick of them and I'd go ok in my head.
Who do I see last night?So, 12 patients.Let's go over the clients associated with those patients because it was the standout as all for shouted.It because you didn't everybody.So that is coloring.My mood majorly shifting me.My negativity bias is triggered in a big way.
Then I had maybe six neutral people who were just there and they were they didn't complain, didn't sound fantastic.And then I had a handful of people who were great, really It's whatever you think.Thank you so much for helping us and then you go well, that's like 90% positive or neutral and 10% - why focus on the negative.
And I think it works in so many other ways to do.I feel this way that negativity isn't the truth.Watch the out of view on this.Does that make sense to you?Yes completely and then I think it at the end of that process I think the next step is, why am I so overwhelmed by that?
You know, I objectively looked at that and that is that was a small part.Part of my night.Why is that so overwhelming?Why was my bucket already empty?When I went into that conversation and have I not had enough social time.Have I used up all my words for the night already?
Am I in a job that requires me to talk more than I have words available to me and, you know, you have you prefer giving yourself enough sleep, have you exercised?Are you eating?Well, you know, all of the other things that give you that ability to cope with the difficult Parts.
It's Making sure that you've got that balance.I think as well as start shifting, your mindset and being a little bit more objective about those emotions back, the excellent.And and on the same topic and I'm going to steal Dorados idea here either to talk about a something is noticed when speaking to students in and comes back to the negativity bias and how when we focus on that on how it influences other people, almost as infection was there's a pandemic going through the veteran.
Community, you know, just when he does talks at University so students and they talked about the clients and he asks them when I say Glide, why do you think?And the answer was overwhelmingly negative answers were - it was like pain in the ass by maintenance really bad stuff and they were really scared almost of going after the bed world.
And speaking to finds interacting with clients, never even seen it Glides in the life.Before there was no its actions and this is from this negativity bias of all this negativity of the In the way, we went about it, we post about it on social media making snarky comments and jokes and then this for youngsters coming into it.
They they do have a negative interactions with their clients, they going into it with that mindset of all, this is going to be a confrontational thing rather than actually, if this is Joy giving thing and how often have you worked with people with vets as far as sort of Role Models, kind of helping to change that attitude.
How often is he worked with people who have kind of Concepts going after all of that client is It's so lovely.Every time they come in, they tell me how their names doing and don't when you have interactions with those Role Models, how much does it lift you up and make you more excited to go into your next console?
Yeah, we trying to.I'm trying to ask you a question.How often do this?I do work with these, like many, write a legible.I try to be that and I typically have colleagues who are like that, he loved his rival and it's it is makes your day so much better, doesn't it?
Yeah, I think I read.A lot of resilience seems having kids and what it takes to build resilience and stuff like that.Have you read a book called The resilience project?No, it's cool.It's really good.But gratitude is practicing that he calls them, the general principles, gratitude, empathy and mindfulness other three, sort of key ways of building resilience.
This is a great book, I'm going to plug it big time.Yeah, he said he's an ex Cricket up and the way he's pitched it is very digestible for people of all walks of life.Life and they sort of principles are so durable that it is that focusing on the nice things.
The client said, rather than the negative.Things means that you can retrain your brain to focus on those positive experiences or to see those positive experiences in your lived experiences that day.Whereas if you are focusing on the need, it was almost the opposite of the Gratitude perspective.
So particularly these kids that are coming out, nervous about clients getting them focusing on five positive, Had with clients at the end of every day, as an employer, might make a really big difference to their because they active and outlook on their job.What about empathy is a gratitude, empathy mindfulness.
Now, how does empathic fit in that resilience project as far as sort of resilience building can reference another book but it's a kids book.It's called buckets and deepens and my concept like my kids later went in buckets and I know.Yeah.Yeah.
Everybody has a bucket.And you when you do Nice things to other people, you fill their bucket, but you also feel your own and then some people have Dippers as well and they will dip into your bucket and take away some of your happiness.And I use this concept, just stealing other people's bucket.
Also fills your own is is essentially what the empathy component of this resilience project is, is doing sort of random act of Acts of Kindness, seeing things from other people's perspective and doing things that will improve their day will also improve your day.I'm going to ask you right until you thought process.
I'm going Yeah, so empathy.In our profession I years ago actually.All right, I used to have a little blog and I wrote a Blog about the importance of empathy for vets and how important it is for me really to have him with different with clients and my co-workers.And then I read a book recently by psychologists.
It's a big shot in the big yellow in the university and he wrote a book called against empathy against the empathy against empathy.He doesn't Yeah, Amy Urology.Behind it says, if we clear on the definition of empathy, empathy is feeling the emotions of others, not just understanding or putting yourself in their shoes or something like that.
It is actually feeling the emotion of other verses compassion, which is a I can see what you're going through.I understand you've got your dumb just run over.You're upset about the lack of money.I can understand what you're going through and that drives me to want to act which is Positive thing and according to the book and according to research, those are two distinct emotions that are no brainer level basis.
So literally when we, when people experience empathy and they do fmri, scans if you're in pain and they scan your brain and I'm highly empathetic person and they scan my brain while I'm watching you in pain.The same here is a lighting up so I am experiencing a negative emotion whereas if you're experiencing pain and I'm compassionate.
Janet different areas like that.You know, I want to act to help you but I'm not in pain and which is made me really think about our profession because we don't we a lot of people are very empathetic.I think empathetic whether it's to what our patients more towards the clients with you with where we feel it by having this this working theory that I still want to speak to somebody to help me get clarity on it as to is that bad thing.
Should we try to move away from being?So let him steady?Is is compassion fatigue, you things that actually entered the fatigue?Is there a way to go a list?It's not feel somebody's been.Let's actually try and understand it and then try and help them make it better.I don't know, is that there's any of thing in that dress and act with your make sense, or oh?
Yeah, absolutely.But I actually thought the definitions of compassion and empathy will revert the wrong, the other way around.So that differentiates two kinds of into theaters, affective empathy and cognitive empathy, the cognitive empathy is more For the I can understand where is effective.
It is I Feel Again, the blue end of the introduction to the book guys.Look, we can provide terminology.Yeah, but according to the author's, Definition empathy is, I feel what you feel and it actually hurts.Yeah, and they do talk about medical professions where it can be was debilitated, if he's so athletic that you actually I'm a mess because you're a mess, I can't do anything about it but this really does resonate with me again.
And I'm so interested in what it is, that's exhausting because if I could Everybody gets into it because they love animals and they love the human animal Bond or some variation of on that Spectrum.So we're definitely feeling people.Typically paper, I read recently was looking at exactly that sort of compassion, fatigue versus burnout.
And one of the biggest predictors of developing fatigue because people can be empathetic and it feels their bucket or you can be empathetic and it empties your bucket.What's the difference?And the difference?They Found in Health Care Systems was when people working in a system that they can't change.
They can't do anything about it.That you end up, developing, that fatigue.So particularly in human health care, you know, there's so many barriers to making change everything so strictly sort of scripted.And, you know, the diagnostic test you're allowed to do and the funding you've got access to and all of that stuff is so unchangeable.
And that's one of the contributing factors to why nurses and doctors burnout.And that made me think what can we change?The veterinary industry that gives people more autonomy and control over their systems, so that they can experience less of that.So that burnout or fatigue sensation?
Yeah, it's like that is that but the joke about moral fatigue where that almost leads to a moral.Where's I know what I can do or should do or want to do?But I can't because of the system around me.You press this particular poignant with the money situation.The money situation.Exactly.Yeah.
Every time we don't treat an animal because of a money situation.That's That really hurts and that that takes it out of you and you can you can learn to dissociated but it's still hot when he is in one of my worst tonight.I think that's probably a good example of the sort of knowing yourself side of things and where you fit in the veterinary industry.
I when I was doing emergency work, I really struggled with that.With people not having money to do what I wanted to do.Whereas as a specialist people get to you, Knowing that you're going to be expensive and they're prepared.And I have a lot less of that, I guess, emotional dreams, because I'm not dealing with that sort of moral fatigue of the financial barriers.
It's a petition for me, I had a very fun interaction with the guy the other day who and maggots a good discussion to have with it.I don't want it to sound like a like a show of conversation but I can I can talk about how again how I played mental games with myself.
You to make the situation much better and much less morally draining for myself.Hey guy who came in and we actually either already been in the night before just dog fibroids, it wasn't life and it wasn't major major stuff, but it's really nasty, like, dog bite, wound, and it come in the night before, with no money.
And he had free pain control and gentlemen, and garlic.And he was told to go to there's a charity, divide us now, but they came back again, the 12 hours later and told me on shift the now the woods yucky and it's It's not again.That's fine.It is that it's not in a life-threatening.
Emergency, it'll probably be fine in Long Run anyway, but he was quite drunk and the note said, it was quite drunk the night before.So, immediately my heckles out.He came in with a whipped up to neighbors of his who were sober and quite nice.There were there to help him and he was quite he was like, why you got to do something here?
Got to hanging out, and got some money or nothing.Nothing dramatic.But he was getting quite comforting, was trying to be nice and try to be nice and I examined her and I said, look great.This is what needs to be done.And ideally as like not prepared and do the whole win clean.But at a minimum, we need a product new period.Anybody that long sir, I won't get into all of the details, but when I said down, if the me started getting really agitated, he was like, and I gave him a really big bones estimate for.
If we're going to do what I want to do is, I give the jury the quite cheap, and I gave him the numbers.Like, how classic, how much you guys?And if the Golan Heights and he did the whole you did the whole thing, try to give me and happy.Why can't we just this?And I could feel the rate will be up inside that comes to that mindfulness.
That's part of that they and their resilience project as I recognize that I'm getting furious.And we're about to start It's shouting at this guy or telling him to forget after some because I actually got a actually we found expired meds and stuff and I said that can give this for free, so I try to find a solution, but he was being a number, but that was the key thing is recognizing, I'm getting so angry when I shouted.
And then I switched To quote and feel compassion.I thought, hang on a minute, let me think about and I right, don't worry about this guy that he is drunk in the middle of the day.He was drunk last night, so clearly has an issue.It's clearly a major major problems in his life.He's being a complete asshole but he's probably a background story and just recognizing that.
And just try to see that perspective.I could literally feel like blood draining out of my face and getting all the car, but they were too long.Long nice discussion.I told him is an asshole and he actually really likes.Thank you, I sent.Oh look wait, I understand, we coming from it is a lot of money, talk through it.
I said was you being an asshole?Because when you say that to me that really hurts me as a person as veterinarian as I said, there's not a single way to doesn't want to help you.I said, so you figure, I saw them.He actually LED louder said, yeah.I mean, that's kind of at this point.We actually, we're friends at the end, but I don't know.
I don't know if there's at least he, it is just that perspective shift.Yeah, that that in itself took that because otherwise I would have left.Dated a few I would have left and gone home and soft about it for a day.Yeah.But that took away the The Edge from it just like didn't just think.
We only took just to be 20 years to get to this point anyway.I can't leave your kids.Haven't taught you that before.And yeah, that's probably the main one of the main drivers need to be able to get in the last last five years.Five, ten years that I've had kids that I've been able to do this.
We call it the parental.Pause that just don't react to take a breath.It wasn't for the friend supposed to be a lot more murdered children.Write a lot more, Anna.Sorry back to you.This is the other thing that you said in your email that I really interested me you said that I love teaching.
But I had bureaucracy, please expand what why does burocracy look like inventor has eyes for you to me if making a process that It should be simple complicated for the sake of being complicated.So unnecessary paperwork and unnecessary, sort of like, Ellen example.
Iran very small.So there's four employees and myself, Mobile Medical consultancy business.And we go into 35, vet clinics to meet our workplace, health and safety requirements.I have to document the fire escape Exit Plan for every single one of the 35 clinics.
We Go into so I'm not fulfilling my requirements as an employer if I don't do that.But if I asked the clinics to provide that information, they're going to look at me like I'm mad.They're busy.Why the hell are you asking us for this information?
So the the connection between sort of teaching and bureaucracy for me is, I guess I had that sort of sliding doors.Do I go?I really really like teaching and I really like teaching students but do I go into a university?Link where I can do that full time and, you know, combination of lecturing tutorials in clinic training or do I stay in private practice and just work out a way to continue, being able to teach in that setting and the big turn-off for me and Academia was how many Hoops you have to jump through to do anything?
And, you know, setting out your learning objectives and all that sort of documentation stuff, which it's completely necessary, and I strongly believe That the veterinary industry needs more governance and compliance in the small businesses, but I'm, it's not in my, in my DNA to be that person.
Yes.I often think about this sort of stuff.I have friends who work in mining engineering or things like that.Oh, yeah.Well, there any type, but the bureaucracy and I just go over great hope.So, glad that we don't have too many people who police, as we get police that Jake, but it's a lot.
Is up to.Well, you're intelligent people that do dumb things.Please don't do dumb things.We say, yeah, don't do dumb stuff.Did he dies?It happens at home.Is that what have your home?Yeah, just just don't do dumb stuff but it's not that some poor, not that simple, right?
Yeah.Okay, well, if this shift from the negativity stuff and get positive what are you excited about in the vet World in?22, what are you seeing that?You think straight and you think it's going to get even better in the next few years.
I'm interested in the impact.I'm not sure whether this is actually sort of happening yet, but I'm excited to see small business owners, getting some more leadership training and being more responsible employers, starting to seek out, kind of Benchmark for salaries, and starting to pay a bit more attention to culture as we get more data.
Either on the positive impact, it has on business performance.And I guess, sort of the business side of the veterinary industry, kind of progressing.And I think from a kind of clinical side, more people are, you know, do so many ultrasounds as part of my job, more people, getting comfortable doing ultrasounds and the opportunities that that provides our patients and clinicians to keep on learning, such a nice thing to sort of like, yes, I Found the adrenal, you know, there's just really objective.
I'm improving in this and it's nice to see people getting excited about learning again.How about you, what about me?Well, I've said it before, I've sent think because I do the podcast and I speak to all these incredibly motivated driven people and leaders and practice owners who do things, right.
I feel like I've to maybe live in a bit of a bubble with the analysis of the company.I worked for a progressive and Barry with the clinical shifts.I do quite a is they very much.Team focused and wellness focused, and trying but nobody's perfect.But I feel like there's a lot of momentum on that in the right direction.
So I feel like it's great.It's heaps better.I've been in three years and things are just constantly getting better and better and better, but then I have conversations sometimes with vets interrupt.Yeah, employed weights in different parts of the world and and it's certainly still not fixed.
Like I said, just a lot of the same old stuff healthy experience between years.Well, I'm generally optimistic.I generally feel like it is becoming a better and better profession to work in for the reasons that you meant.We were growing up as a profession, it's no longer one dude who can do whatever he wants with his team and not give a shit about their work.
Personal well-being is a lot of snow in.That's my heading in the right direction.And then yeah my going learning that's been a big shift for me because I did get blase about my knowledge sort of 10 to 15 years in with now banana Now, I know what I'm doing and then said, I kind of stopped enjoy the work.
I do not stopped enjoying, it becomes less enjoyable.When you stuck in this rut and then through doing the clinical podcast, just the ongoing learning, just this realizing.Wow, there's a lot, but I don't know.And it's actually rather than being a choice activity funding, you step?Yeah.And it makes the shifts is so much more fun if you.
Well, you know, you should try, if you feel competent, confident, works.Just so much more fun because you are staying a days.And you I have this thing in the back of your head going.Well, probably about 10 years behind on what's new in this world.Never quite fully your great fully understood this disease but we'll just sort of Basics and yes, it or somebody else.
Yeah.So I'm going to add to my aunt's.Actually, I'm really excited to have technicians coming through.Yeah we know before.Yeah I think there's always in these in Australia.Vets are always doing a little bit of Nursing and nurses are requiring.
Fair bit of training on the job and there's not that many clinics that can provide that really and I'm excited to have people kind of spanning that Gap so that vets can continue to learn and bring the text with them.You can bring the nurses with them and we can all kind of start moving on and I think as we as employers, we get more pressure to pay people appropriately as that as professionals we can then say to vets.
Okay?Then I don't want you doing this.You need to train this.Some to do this so that you can then be a vet all the time rather than holding for a catheter be priced and things like that.So I think the whole industry's got more opportunities to move forwards.If we've got better trained, people moving through behind us?
Absolutely.There's a small part of me is resistant for selfish reason because a lot of those things that you do and again after 10 years it becomes more mundane but it's kind of fun to do some of this thing.And a little part of me doesn't want to give it away.This is So what do I got to do?
If you good thing all the friends that will do surgery and then I'll just do all the thinking and I'll sit at the Comfort because I do again where I work and this is our highly skilled so we don't cry.Be catheters in.Yes.A lot of stuff that we don't do, we just write it on a list and it gets done.And then I spend a lot of my shift at computer making decisions and reckon phone calls and like, I don't want to do it Edmonton.
That's what I, that's what I think we should be training and nurses in client calls concert.Patience.And then you can learn to do endoscopy or surgery or another hands on.Yeah.All right.But I think we have to stop putting up with one question.
I want to do a shout-out for this.I saw when I looked into what you do, you talk about how much you like teaching, but how you don't like teaching in the traditional environment?Yeah.So how are you teaching at the moment where how do you are you scratching that itch?I've got a couple of different things going on.
I meant the first one I'm running a three-month program for vets to join me.One day a week and come on the road with me, when come to the clinics and the focus mode.The people have been most interested in people that really want to improve that ultrasound skills.And because I'm medicine not Radiology, my focus is very much on interpretation.
So if they want to improve their technical skills, I'm sort of, I guess training people to be to alter sound technicians.And then, you know, I'm still there to do the interpretation and make recommendations on the case.Has, but it means that those vets are improving their skills and I can chat to that the Vets about the case while they're doing the ultrasound.
So that's one.That's such a cool opportunity.It's cool.It's really fun.Yeah, because I did the ultrasound thing, and they initially way back when I do courses, and it is quite an extensive course.I didn't have a city and all the knowledge and potentially skill, but then I lack.
The longtime lack the confidence to actually utilize it cause I wear everything of like, well, Is what I'm seeing.What I think it is and actually hang out with somebody.Yeah.Hanging out with somebody.Who knows?It could say yep.That is that.That is no.That is too big.
No that shouldn't look like that is.Yes, exactly.And I think it's an exciting time in ultrasound because in you know the human world stenographers do ultrasound is not Radiologists, radiologist interpret.The images in the u.s., a lot of the specialist hospitals are using technicians, they've trained as sonographer has to do the ultrasound.
And then the radiologist or interpreting them.And as we sort of get Ty, you know, everyone's busy, the staff shortages everywhere.Everyone's kind of really thinking about, okay, well, what do I really need to do and what can I train other people to do?And I think this is definitely a direction.We're going to go into in Australia, first GPS doing ultrasounds but Radiologists interpreting them like if you were sending off a radiograph so vets are more confident to have a go at doing the ultrasound knowing that they don't have to be able to interpret everything they see.
They just know which Piggies to get You can send them off and then the other the other thing I'm doing teaching lies is again focused around ultrasound but doing workshops in clinics to training clinics on their equipment, and know the limitations of their equipment, know the capabilities of their equipment, how to adjust it, and things to get the most out of it and train them to do.
Sort of emergency point-of-care ultrasound and a full ABDO scam.Using those sort of there's a consensus statement on the way out which says what images and videos to get for.A else to be able to interpret your scan.So training people to get those pictures essentially that's very useful and then you don't you run like these online.
One of them.How would you try with you newly the sessions that you do?Yeah, I do that.So we're just working our way through their head and jaw textbook book of Victory.Internal Medicine just Kelly working through it, enjoy this.
Yeah.So it's sort of pitched it.People who are kind of membership level knowledge or interested in selling memberships and it started because I was training residents and interns and we wanted to do some sort of formal you know have structure and just work through tutorials, once a fortnight and we opened it up to membership candidates, just through the college.
And then I've got a sort of sign up sheet on my website.So if anybody is interested in coming, they can put the email in and we send out the link to the tutorial.Tutorial and the subject that will be talking about once a fortnight and then people can join.It's 8 a.m.Sydney time on a Friday morning, every other Friday, but I think I know where do they find you?
This website is vets North, and a Combi you right standard question.Time you listen to podcast?Yeah, I do.Yeah, and favorites.What should I put on my listening list?I listen to a lot of different stuff.
The best one I've listened to recently, was A trauma surgeon who was interviewed?I think it was on conversations, ABC radio.It was a trauma surgeon, who was one of the First Responders at the Bali bombing and it was a really interesting conversation, but my go to regular go to Simon sinek.
He does a podcast called a little bit of optimism, and they really interesting guests.I don't deserve you listen to that one.I am a fan of Silence.Yeah, yeah, I'm going to withhold.See, I'll give you a sign when episode that you should listen to.One another podcast Diary of a CEO is the broadcast name of, get the guy runs it and it is an episode from the about a month or two back where he interviews sign awesome, gold.
A lot of really, really good.Insights were very specifically for we could all this into an about resilience and we way that the work culture is Shifting.And now, a lot of young people are shooting themselves in the foot actually, with some attitude.So pretty cool.I will listen interesting.
Yeah, I mean right now the big question is couple of last month's work to do the new and first we do the pass it on.Still trying to find a nice Nifty name.For this one we a previous year's asks a question that I should ask you and then you're gonna have to give you a question that I'm going to ask my next guest.
So let's start with a question from the previous guest.Denis asked if you're a new grad, but you knew the things that, you know, now how would your career ever looked at It's a good question.But you know there's a few things that I've probably put up with that.
I shouldn't have put up with and in hindsight knowing what I know I would have said actually that's illegal or now actually can't change.You know, we can't do that because of this but actually probably being a little bit more casual and things provided more opportunities.
So I think my career probably would have been a little bit more limited if I was, you know, I talked about boundaries it's really important to have boundaries but If I was to solid on those, I would have missed opportunities so my career would have different that's interesting.So I'm not sure that I'd actually change.
So you when you consciously change, the janeyinjapan know.It's been fun.It's a big split.It was scuba.So what's your question for our next guest?I'm really interested in if the veterinary industry didn't exist.What job would you do?
Yeah, what happens, every time people, ask this question and then I want to ask Skin of the person who started this sort of keep track and see whose necks.And make sure I find out what the answer was.
I'll let you know and in the very last one you are at a conference or online pay to something.Then it has all of the veteran, new grads of the world altogether, never few minutes.To give them just one little bit of advice.What is entered and get advice?I think learn about yourself, make sure, you know yourself.
And keep tabs on yourself as you grow and change and different influences.Different priorities in your life.I've, I have a habit.Every six months, I do a personal strategic weekend and I take myself to a hotel for a night and I sit down and work out my wife, what my priorities are, what key relationships, I need to maintain and what review, whether I'm doing a good job on them?
Both professionally personally, what I believe in what my values are and And just make sure that I'm staying kind of on track.And I think everybody should do that from very early on, in their life.I really like that.That's very, very, very wise because it's very easy to have delivered what they called an unexamined life.
You just hmm.Like happens to you and kind of just go with the flow.And yeah, well you know that the decade you got me shook.What's is that time when you do this ended to do, you have a specific agenda?Had an agenda outline, a thing that's executive.
Do the same process every time dick Motors.And then look back at ya.Yeah, pretty much.And there's, there's sort of circumstances, obviously that needs special attention.So, there might be sort of special points to raise on the agenda, but it's always.What do I believe in?
How have those beliefs evolved?What a my values?And my priorities, consistent and that the direction that I'm kind of heading at the moment.Aligned with those values and what relationships Do I need to make sure what you know, where I dropped the ball.And how am I going to ensure that my social support network is aligned with my values as well?
And they do you have.So that's six months.If you have little chickens in between the six months, just check with you on track or do you stick to the six months and then what is it the in-between?Do you refer back to your list on a weekly basis?Or is it just the six-month not chicken, not regularly, but usually, when I'm making decisions.
So, if I've got a big Can I I sort of go back and say, okay well this is this is my y essentially.And this decision I'm thinking about doing this.Is that aligned with what I've documented here as my Y and if not, what do I do?
I need to review the decision or do I need to review these sort of core values that I've had, for a very long time.It's probably help, very cool about really, really cool.I'm just so, so impressed that you could have a night away from kids in the hotel and, like, just get drunk and watch this.So I think that's the reward after I've got your like a five minute tip tip tip so that by 5 p.m.
I'm okay, it's so loaded to Jed to thank you for with time.I love it.I love the Insight.Was anything else that we missed out on this tube like to mention or Have you had regarded of chest?
And I also know I could talk for hours.This is nothing.Thanks.Before your anyway, I want to finish up with a quick story from this very morning, but this morning, I had my morning shift at the emergency hospital where I work and this morning.
I had a case of a bleeding abdomen dog came in, literally bleeding to death and not that long ago, we did an episode actually last year sometime, we did an episode about treating animals, bleeding internally with auto, transfusions something I knew about, but never tried because I wasn't sure how and what and who's at the best for.
And I remember the discussion that we had with dr.Rob Webster, on the ECC podcast on order, transfusions pulled up my show notes, got all the facts about it and proceeded to take about a liter of blood out of this dogs, everyone and putting it back in its vein and saved its life.
So that's one story.But every week, I'm getting more and more people telling me how the podcasts influence specific cases in there every day, working life, how it made them treat their patients.Better had made them feel better about their working life and made them feel more confident and do.Better work, which makes me really, really happy.
But it also makes me really sad because we have about 1,000 people, subscribe to the clinical podcast, now which means is thousand vets who are better at their jobs.But it means that there's probably about 80 to 100,000 other words who are not listening to our podcast, who are not getting the benefit of this stuff that are amazing.
Specialist guests are teaching me and teaching everybody who listens so please make me happy.Please don't miss out.Check out the clinical podcasts at at VV n dot super cars.com beyond the podcast.We also back these up with fantastic clinical show notes which are all the highlights.
All the Practical tips that you need to remember when you get that bleeding patient early in the morning, one year, after you listen to the podcast you can go back and look for those.We've now put these on a very cool Network that is completely searchable.So this morning I went into the app and I went to the search bar and said Auto transfusion and it popped up with four episodes where we've discussed all the transfusions with the associated notes so I can quickly Scroll find what I'm looking for and jump in and get the work done.
Go and check it out first.Two weeks for free at vvn people, got.com.

Dr Anna Dengate