April 28, 2023

#91: Human savvy: Navigating relationships with colleagues, work and ourselves. With Dr Olivia Oginska.

#91: Human savvy: Navigating relationships with colleagues, work and ourselves. With Dr Olivia Oginska.
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Season 1

Our guest for this episode - Dr Olivia Oginska, has made it her mission to help us have better relationships, both in and outside of work.

Olivia Oginska is a veterinarian, speaker, positive psychology coach, a certified workplace conflict mediator and an emotional intelligence specialist. Liv has been immersed in the global veterinary community since 2010 when she did multiple externships in the UK, North America and Australia. It was through Liv's veterinary career in the UK, including a surgery residency, that she also gained experience and credentials in positive psychology, emotional intelligence and conflict mediation. This cemented her passion for human wellbeing and interpersonal dynamics and for the last 3 years, Liv has devoted her veterinary career to supporting both individuals, teams and especially leaders in becoming more human-savvy through her consulting and coaching service.

This conversation with Liv is all about navigating work relationships and our relationships with ourselves - we explore what a healthy work relationship looks like. We explore the connection between burnout and the reliance on work to provide not only our professional and financial needs, but also our relationship needs, and we discuss a new way of thinking about balance, what self awareness and emotional intelligence looks like in practice, and much much more.

 

Topic List:

6:54 Relationships and connections at work - taking care of them.

10:11 Private life and professionalism.

11:00 On the floor relationships and friendships - do people want to be friends with colleagues anymore?

14:36 The connection between burnout and the reliance on work to provide money, growth, community etc.

17:43 The truth about work-life-balance.

23:19 Setting expectations with your partner or friends.

27:59 How to navigate conflict with colleagues.

35:31 Open conversations and leaning into 'conflict'.

38:47 Importance of self-awareness during conflict and how to view things from a different perspective.

48:00 Why do we feel the need to be right and prove ourselves?

49:35 Why we should change our minds and listen to other opinions?

54:49 How Olivia started her career and why she ended up in emotional intelligence coaching.

60:03 Hitting rock bottom and triggering a change in life.

60:09 What does a good team dynamic look like in terms of emotional closeness?

60:10 The importance of aligning values and boundaries.

60:19 Working through imposter syndrome.

 

Join our community of Vet Vault Nerds to lift your clinical game and get your groove back with our up to date easy-to-consume clinical episodes at vvn.supercast.com, visit thevetvault.com for the show notes and resources for this episode, and connect with us through our online Vet Vault Network. for episode highlights, discussions, questions and support.

Join us in at Vets on Tour in Wanaka, New Zealand on 13 - 18 August 2023 for great CE, live podcasting and snow... lots of snow!

Dr Liv's Consulting Business - Vet Gone Real

Every time we record this podcast, there's usually a bit of chitchat before you officially start the interview and make sure that I don't forget to hit the record button because that's happened and also in case, anyone says anything useful, that I don't want to miss all.Usually be recording while we chat and I'm going to play you a little bit of the pre-recording recording from this episode now, and I'll explain why after we play it.
Just to put this snippet that I'm about to play into context, we chatting about making big moves, Like physical geographical moves because live or Olivia, our guests will introduce are properly in a second is in the process of moving from the UK to Australia.
So we were talking about the practicalities and the realities around that process and I was sharing my experience from when me and my family, relocated Interstate a few years ago.So here goes I found because I moved to America to UK, you get to Australia, Its birth and then Perth to Queensland, I found it way more disruptive than I thought.
I struggled because it drove around with a budgie in your car.That was a good part is that there was an exciting part.The excitement is the move itself and then it's settling into the mundane everyday life.That is so much harder when you leave all your support systems behind.That was, that was hard and I kind of, like, I think I expected it when I moved to Australia, there was no surprise, but then this move, I just didn't really consider it.
I was really surprised how I said to somebody who I visualize it.How I I felt if you take a pot plant that starts getting rootbound, you know, it grows in its parts, and it's gets too many roots, it needs to expand.And so you need to repot it into a bigger pot, but no matter how delicately remove it and you put it into that bigger pot, it is going to have a bit of shock and you're going to get a little bit of leaves falling off and it's going to go backwards a little bit before it starts getting new roots and then growing bigger and stronger.
So why did I want to play that bit of conversation here?It's because I've since thought more about this analogy of the repotting of the plant and I'm going to take it a little bit further.If I think back to Botany in my first year of uni in South Africa, you had to do a year of general science degree to get into vet school and I had to do botany as one of my subject and I recall that the reason that a plant does that will T.
I think I might die thing.When you move it, it's called Rude shock.I think is that plant roots are covered in.Countless tiny little hairlike Roots called root a that massively increases, the amount of water and nutrients that plants can absorb.It's almost like all the the time recomputed capillary vessels where most of the work gets done in the mammalian body rather than in the major blood vessels, right?
And regardless of how delicate you work when you move a plant it's impossible not to damage a lot of those little root hairs.So even though externally the plant and its roots are undamaged when you repot it, it's actually not fully functional.It's lost a lot of its capacity to thrive because you severed, those tiny connections and links it to its sources of nourishment.
So to bring this back to the Energy.Those countless little connections, do our sources of flourishing.Those are the relationships in our lives.And in the same way that route has extend the surface area of a plant, the root system, our relationships with others can extend our own capacity for growth and fulfillment for happiness.
Someone who has strong relationships, can more easily access the experiences insights and support that they need to navigate life's challenges and do Find meaning.It's very hard to produce your flowers and fruits if we damage or neglect, the seemingly small ad really vitally important stuff.
So why am I talking about this?It's because this episode is all about relationships about getting better at the very thing that connects us to the world around us and our guests for this episode dr.Olivia organs car or live has made it her mission to help us have better relationships both in and outside of work.
So who's live?Olivia organs got is a veterinarian speaker, positive psychology, coach a certified, workplace, conflict mediator and an emotional intelligence specialist live has been immersed in the global veteran Community.Since 2010, when she did multiple externships in the UK North America.
And in Australia after graduating, as a veterinarian from the University of Poland, she pursued a veteran career in the UK, including starting a surgical residency, it was here that she also gained experience and credentials in positive psychology.Emotional intelligence and conflict.
Mediation cementing a passion for human well-being and interpersonal Dynamics for the last three years.Livers devoted a veteran career to supporting both individuals teams and especially, team leaders in becoming more human Savvy.She also still works as a part-time clinician, so that you can fully comprehend the complexity and the emotional demands of clinical roles.
This conversation with live is all about navigating work relationships and our relationships with ourselves.We explore What a healthy work relationship looks like what's too much versus what's too distant.We look at the connection between burnout and the Reliance on work to provide not only a professional and financial needs.
But also our relationship needs.We talk about a new way of thinking about balance, what self-awareness and emotional intelligence looks like in practice and much, much more.But before we jump in just a few practicalities, first of live is live at the AV a National Conference in Adelaide.
At the end of May, where she Be presenting a plenary session so come and say hi.We also doing some last-minute planning for some exciting secret squirrel, with v activities during conference.So I hope we bump into each other.We'll let you know the details live is also going to be at the ends at VA and June and again a trade Expo later in the year.
So if you want to meet her and see her in action, there's plenty of opportunity.She's also now officially doing live workshops in Australia.So listen out for a contact details at the end of the episode.If you think that you and your team might need to become a little bit.It more human Savvy, which there were friends, we probably all do.
All right, let's get into it with Dr. Olivia against khakha.Welcome to the vet.Well, thank you so much.It's lovely to see you guys.
Hey, everyone, IG is back Dorado.Have you got anything to say for yourself?What would I have to save myself?Now, you know, I feel like I'm in trouble.No, excuse only that, Hubert's stopped inviting me the to these things.And I stamped my foot and here I am back now.
Olivia, I have been following your work clothes, to get your newsletter and I see You're the social feed.I love the stuff.You talking about, relationship and connection, and all those sort of things is that, is that a decent summary.We had to encapsulate, what your life work.
Out of the vet clinic is, I think the word relationship is the perfect word to encapsulate.That, and very often.When you talk about relationships in the professional setting, a lot of people are a bit confused because I don't come to work to necessarily have that relationship.
Ships.They think that it's more a family thing on a romantic thing, or maybe friendships outside of work to have those relationships.But the truth is that work because we spend so much time there because we connect with people every single day.Because we go through the hardship together, the relationships can be very often much more robust than the ones that we have outside of work.
So taking care of the quality of those relationships is really, really important.And I see that in my work.Work as a coach, when I consult on the team's, I can see that quality of those relationships is really the source of the well-being or the lack of well-being performance.
Really, how well we feel in acting in if you want to stay.And we know that employee turnover is a problem now.So that is a big thing that we should pay attention to, which was also confirmed by research.So, we've got loads of papers saying that exact thing.What stage though does.
The work release, Like It's tricky because I suppose you have really close relationships with people at work and as you said, they can be quite close and you will disclose personal information because you're sharing back and forth over time, you build trust and connection, right?Then, is there a certain stage where professionalism and work performance should be considered in that to some degree?
Like you need to work and trust but then sometimes out So, I'd problems come into the workplace and he needs to be able to stratify that or something or segregate that, so that it doesn't impact patient care and performance at work.
So, I think there are two aspects that you touched on in here.One aspect is definitely the quality of the relationship between people within work in terms of the power dynamics.So when you're at the same level, if you are in the same role you're both Veterinary nurse or technicians, or veterinarians, It's very easy because no one is, let's say above and below even though we don't like the hierarchy model, but it is still there.
So it makes it very easy.You can just share, whatever you feel comfortable with that person.The problem becomes apparent.When there is the, that power imbalance, when someone is in a more leadership role, or when they used to be friends.And now, one person is the leader for another person that's really tricky.
And I have a Of Cochise coming to you of that question.What should I do?Because I don't want to lose that friendship, but also, I need to have that level of authority.And you feel that respect that this person really knows that I know my B.
This, there was a reason why I became a leader while I am in that position now.So that's that aspect.And the other aspect that you touch on is I suppose how much of a privacy and private life, and our emotions from the private life.We bring into our Session life and when it disrupts our professionalism, can we perform?
Well, if we have so much trouble on mind and can we be focused?There are two separate topics that all we can dive into if you would like to.But I know it's multifactorial.It's very complex and is any relationship is easy?
I don't think so.Hmm.Yeah, look at you.You actually just opened up a big can of worms yourself.Actually the whole from Bud to boss transition is super difficult and then yeah.So she would you pick Choose Your Own Adventure, mate?
Okay, I want to come back to the bud to bus, but let's should we start with just the General on the floor relationship.Friendship how far it goes.And I want to dig into that because I feel like there's been a change.I've been in the profession long enough that I feel like they are Trends and I and maybe it's just Clinics of worked or it's different generation of people entering the profession.
But I do feel like we had way more intimate relationships, maybe I was also younger.Maybe that's the difference that I was in a different life.So I didn't have kids.I didn't have a lot of other stuff in my life.So I very quickly, initial jobs became quite good friends with work people.
So we would be friends at work and also socialize outside of work, which as you say, Gerardo, you alluded to that, that can be a bit loaded there can be problems with that.But it did also add a lot of Joy because work would be less of a chore because I'm going in and I'm excited because I'm seeing my mates, you know, the nurse that we had drinks with on Saturday night.
Now we're just going to hang out and have fun all day and make animals better.But there's a there's a good banter and a good relationship going on there.I do feel and and throughout my career even back then I have made several people who actively don't want to do that.I had a good friend of mine who I still became friends with but initially he said I don't purposefully don't socialize with workmates otherwise, everything becomes work.
My life just becomes one big red bubble and I don't have any outside friends because I so he actively tried.To befriend people at work and said, well, is my social life.Here is my work.And I find, I feel like there's a lot of that these days where people sort of scrum away from when you say, hey, how about we going to do this on the weekend?
People go?Yeah, yeah.Okay.And they're not actually want to engage and I feel like it's almost a decision that some people make.What are you?Finding at the moment in your work?Is there a trend?Where's where's the balance?How do we approached?It is hard to tell?Because is very individual dependent.
I would say, depending on your character.The type of workplace there.Obviously difference between a huge referral hospital when you have loads of people there and also small general practice.Interestingly, I would say that in a smaller practices, even though that people are, they spend a lot of time together in that tight, little group of people, they might more, commonly choose to not meet outside of work, because it's a limited number of those people that you hang out with you to everything with them, whereas in their big, referral Hospital.
I've been an intern few times by now and I know how it is.And when you work very long hours these are pretty much the only people that you know, you don't have that much choice, you can't cite, you know, guys, I don't hang out with you because you don't have anyone else when you work 12-hour shifts as an intern.
So it's just natural and there's many more people to choose from.So imagine going to high school, right?There's loads of people there and you obviously create friendships within that high school, because you have a choice.Choice of personalities and types of people, but I think it's all about finding that balance and what actually truly suits you not to be forced to create those relationships because obviously, that will be situations where we just don't like someone.
We don't match personality-wise.Why should we make friends with them?It's not serving us or them ready.So to be as you say you know, it in a Cheesy way to be authentic self and really choose what really really suits you there.So the type of People that you want to hang out with and also the degree to which you hang out with them.
And I told the understand, the people who say to know, I would like to keep it separate because if I if I'm friends only with the vet people, then the only topic that we touch on is like seating in that little puddle of Mud and just, you know, keep slashing each other with with mud.
And we are stuck in the same topic and the mindset.So it's quite unhealthy in the world.And saturated with burnout, even more that can be quite unhealthy to be stuck in the same topic as we keep going back to the same conversations very often unproductively, unfortunately, because we don't know how to manage the situations, but I also understand people who look for community at work because when you think about that, we used to live depending on the country in much more religious.
Communities or maybe smaller cities, we didn't have social media.So what we need from live as human species, we need the community.We need connection.When you do feel that we belong on a tribe and when we had that tribe in our neighborhood, where chatting, with our friends on street, we had that now it's quite tricky because we look for those things for the belongingness for the sons of tribe.
Also, at work And it's so much pressure that we put on work.When you think about that as to give you money it has to give you growth.Has to give you community, suddenly safety that we all look for the psychological safety.And I'm not surprised that so many people are born out because it's like an epicenter of our life.
You actually what you just said there, the end where it becomes the epicenter ride because especially for new graduates.They, they come out of University.Then it's this whole like, I I need to make sure we're good.Quick feel confident and comfortable as quick as possible.
So then everything's about that.Everything's about study learning reading and then Works about that outside of work is about, you know, trying to learn vet and learn much more about that and so forth.One of the things that obviously, that happens, right?
There's only so much, so much limited time in the day, right?The personal outside external work, relationships, start to get put on the back burner.And essentially what happens is then they feel like as if they've lost that sense of community, lost those relationships that used to be close.
And then, as you said, all the conversations are around work and if the work is somewhat of a toxic place, then it kind of imprints this old paint to the their career.With this brush that that is a toxic career choice.And what advice would you have for people who have made?
Work, the epicenter of their relationships.I think for peoples who step to step into the profession.So the new grads from the very beginning, I would love them to know that, we can't have it all the myth of work-life balance.
It doesn't exist.We cannot feel perfectly comfortable about having it all in the same time.So if from the beginning will assume that there will be areas of my life that will be times when I will be really devoted to work and it's okay.It's my active choice.
I have the agency there, I will decide.I want to stay and really focus on work, and there will be times in my life, when I will focus on the personal life.I would never say, oh, you should exclude that completely drop your friend to not remove everyone from Facebook Castle, their phone numbers, and just don't speak to them.
Absolutely not, but also to take them on board if someone is your close friend and they love you and you explain to them, especially if someone who You're in a romantic relationship.If you tell them listen honey I really need to do this and I need to focus on that area of my life, would you be on board with that?
Could we do that together?And I promise you there will be times when you'll be my main focus and the same with friends and if someone is a true friend and loves you, they will support that and if they are not, you will and it's sad to say that but you will gradually leave people behind and it's okay.
As we grow, as we mature, we develop those connections that really, really matter to us.It's a part of life.Even though it's sad, we can't be friends with everyone and it's healthier for everyone involved.If someone is already amassed, fully that work is my whole thing.
Take a look, take a step back and think is this serving me?Is it good to me?If it is fantastic?Continue doing what you're doing?If you're healthy, if you're in a place where you want to be, but if not, if you realize and very often, we don't even have a take a second to reflect, am I happy?
Is that what I want to be doing with my life?If we reflect and we realized, you know what, I like those parts I don't like this.Then start finding ways through which you can expand.And your community, maybe decrease your hours, maybe sign up for something that will give nurture your helping you find like-minded people.
It sounds silly and very simple, but it, it it's that that's just finding people who can connect with.You, on a certain level hobby work, definitely have a think you deserve to know.You deserve to be happy.
I'm going to interrupt you here to tell you about two things that are making me really happy right now.The first thing is snow or the prospect of snow combined with podcasting, with a bunch of really cool people from 13th to 18th of August. 20, 23 divided, V is teaming up with vets on to her in one occur, New Zealand for those of us who, like our learning mixed with a lot of fun and Adventure.
The learning component of this year's conference will be an Eclectic mix of palliative, care oncology, and Us and Leadership.We covering some topics that I think are really essential in everyday practice around giving up patients, the respect and quality of life that they deserve for their last bit of time with us including that all-important.
Last visit and then dr.Gary, Turnbull from the Lincoln Institute will lead some sessions that will ensure that your practice is thriving and healthy.And not a terminal patient, including a session on conflict, which has a conflict avoider.I'm really excited about and the weight will be there.
In an official capacity this year.Doing our thing with Mike in hand will do live podcasting deep Dives and q&a's with the guest speakers.And we're even considering a bit of podcasting during or after the notorious vet on to a party tonight.But I think maybe not live for this run.
Oh, and snow, of course, the victim to conferences have a nice long Gap in the middle of the day.So you can go and exhaust yourself on the slopes, which I will certainly be doing booking Link in the show description, right?Are you listening here?I am super excited and I would love to see you there.
Then the other thing that's making me really happy right now is the launch of the vet V network.If you look in the show description, you'll see an invite to join this network of Aid professionals.Where we, we being not just a bit fault, but all of us, you will share information and support each other.
It's kind of like a cross between a website and a Facebook group, and an online course, but cooler than Facebook and without the distracting reels and enjoying post.Those people and without the algorithm that decides what you should and shouldn't see and it's more interactive than a web page and a lot less lonely than an online course.
From our side it will have extract and highlights and discussions about our episodes both these non clinical topics as well as the clinical we planning on taking on a topic or theme every two weeks and totally nerd out on it.But you've got to help us turn it from a dead space in the metaverse into a bustling empathetic Community.
It's there.It's Ready.Now, all it needs is you and your passion, your wisdom, and maybe a little bit of vulnerability link for it is in the show description, okay, back to live.One piece of advice that I provide to some of our interns or new Betsy's especially in their transition to emergency because then they working weekends and night shifts and stuff like that.
And it does have a significant impact on the time that they spend with their partners and so forth.I often ask them have, you ask your partner, what expectations, they have of you around you, what they need from you because sometimes, it could be actually every Fortnight we go for date night or something sometime.
Like the getting Clarity around or getting coming to some kind of agreement of expectations, on each other pick a clear kind of picture of how to work together towards taking the goals of of nurturing, the relationship and building it but also building and nurturing your career as well.
Part of the those kind of those kind of conversations.I'm not really had but they just kind of assumed that you know I'm becoming a vet now.And this is why I am, this is what I do and you know, you signed up for this Just got to put up with in.Yeah, yeah and it comes back to what you said Olivia about.
Don't expect perfect balance at all times.There will be periods of flux where the pendulum swings from one thing to the other.This is advice from a, from a really high level executive businessmen, who said him and his wife have an agreement that they have a quarterly meeting.
We had a date night or something that they set aside and he knows that he's a workaholic and he does important work.And they talked about the important aspects of their lives and it's work.Obviously, so him, as a, as a provider, as a contributing member of society, him as a husband, and then him as a father, and she gets to grade him out of 10 in each of those fields.
And the expectation is not that it's a high score for each of the groups in any one quarter, at least two of those.And this is he suggested, it's not her putting her foot down and saying, well, I he said, I want to be good, at least two of those things are relatively high scoring.
It's okay for me to suck at one of them for a period of time.So if they have a meeting that she says are and eight out of ten dad, eight out of ten provider with your shitty husband.It's okay because we have this agreement but reset something else.
The next three months, something else is going to take a backseat because now it's I want to be one of those two things for the for the next quarter, which I think is such a beautiful system to say, it's a Gala Allow you.But there's got to be an end point because if this is going to be asked for ever, I'm out.
But if it's us for a period of time don't like it, I can accept that.Yeah.What's your both describing together?Which is beautifully complementary in there because it's two different types of clarity.One of the clarity within yourself so your priorities.
So you said there's that saying that you have more than three priorities.You have no priorities in life because you can't fulfill everything.So if you choose three main things, being a good professional.So for example, I prioritize my work my career.
I prioritize my family and I prioritize my health, for example, that would be me personally, there's three priorities, so it's Clarity within yourself.If you spend some time thinking about it, what is it really important to me?The topic of value steps in a really, really big topic that it's important for every single person.
Then you can be at peace with yourself.There and the second part is the clarity with other people and will Gerardo you mentioned having Clarity with your partner or with the people who you interact with it.Prevents conflicts, the more clarity we have in our life especially professionally, especially in a team, the less conflicts and frictions we will have in that life in our workplace culture but also in our relationships and one of the things that I always Repeat to my leaders that are trained.
They laugh at me of like, okay, well, you know, life, the gift of knowledge, the gift of clarity.And it was laugh about that, but it kind of gets stuck in their mind.And if you can explain to someone the reasons behind, first of all, you means that you know them, you are set in stone that this is important to me and they know them now and they can do about that what they want.
Because let's be honest, they don't have to agree with them.They could have a completely different vision of the situation and that opens up the space for the dialogue.And then you can get on the same page.So should we talk about that that gift of knowledge at work that you teach your clients?
How do we give that gift?What does it look like?To create some because I because I think the goal of this conversation for me is a happy workplace because we talk a lot.I say we, as a profession, you talked a lot about the client conflict and keeping clients happy and clients are so exhausting.
But the reality of everyday wear to work is at some point in your career, your biggest stress is going to be a relationship with a colleague with its your bus.Buses are often easier because you, You can't create that separation.I don't need to be made with my boss if he or she is sometimes grumpy or that's okay.
The ones that can really get you is that person you work with every day at colleague, who sees, cases differently to you or the nurse who bullies you around or vice versa.And we don't often talk about that and that can really make a workplace.So you can be the great red and a lot of your clients.
But what happens behind those doors with your colleagues can be exhausting and can make you want to leave a job for sure.So give Knowledge.What does it look like?How do we give it?Hmm.So I think we need to set the little bit of foundation before we step into that topic.There are two areas that really important.
One is the difference between intention and impact.This one that I'm gonna Park that for a second and the other one is what actually dictates our Behavior.So one of the elements of the foundation that I teach is a quality cycle.So I thought emotion and action every single thing that we observe in the world.
It makes us crave thought some conclusions about what we observe but also what we experienced in the past and let's say, in my head I'm looking at you guys were recording this podcast and I'm thinking, okay, they're listening to me, they are responding to me, seems interesting to them may be okay.
My thought is like, we have a good conversation that ignites emotionally, right?So I feel good.I feel comfortable with you guys by the way bill down, because you made me feel comfortable.So that's wonderful.And that Ignites, emotion there, and that will obviously dictate the action.
My behavior I will speak more freely.I will tell you everything that I would like to.I will feel more confident, so I will speak up my mind.So that that cycle is very important because very often, when we communicate between one another.We assume that what that person does, what they say to us.
It's exactly what they're thinking.Or that, that is something that we take for granted.That we know what they actually had in mind when they said something to us.So we assume we assume the intention.We assume that we know, we have that, that fallacy of that Clarity in that in communication, especially if someone is not really good in expressing themselves.
How many times in your life, you said something that was completely badly taken and just caused a lot of trouble and yes, and you didn't intend to do that.The reason for that is because we don't always know how to express our thoughts ready.
Well, but we also don't express our emotions.We don't say out loud things that make us behave that way.So going back to what you said, our colleague at work, we need to communicate.Well we need to work around that patient specific situation because there's such a big difference between our our intentional or impact.
In the end, people might create As we leave space for that really hurtful assumption.So someone treated you badly, you would assume.First of all, they are a bad person.Maybe we would not always take into consideration that there was some emotion behind it.
That maybe someone was heard there was other factors.We take things very passionately as well so it's about finding a way to communicate.What is truly happening in my head and my heart.That is the gift of clarity and gift of knowledge to the person.
Next to me, it's not only telling them what we want from them but also explaining the background of it.So for example when you came late that day to work, it delayed our whole day and we ended up working really, really long hours when you say that they might think, okay?
They're pissed off with me and now.Okay, I'm going to change that with.You didn't say is that you know, When you came late, it made me feel really confused.Do you value our time?Do you want the same thing?Do you want us to work as a team?Well, are we on the same page?So because I was really confused about that.
I became very tense that day and I was rushing and really impacted the quality of my work.So it changed the way I performed.If we give someone the reason behind an explanation, they will be more willing to adjust their behavior.
Because now they see oh this is what actually happened and it creates that something.As called the intrinsic motivation, they themselves want to adjust their behavior because they feel it's good.It's aligned with my values but if someone tells you what to do is the extrinsic motivation nights, maybe a threat, or if I don't do that, you're going to punish me or that the little carrot.
If I do that, I will get a reward.Which is successful to certain degree but not until in the long term and definitely doesn't build relationships because relationships about, bonding at that deeper level.You get me.I get you, we can work together and we can explain our hearts and Minds to each other.
So you pull it using the framework of the situation, the behavior or the actions.And then the impact, personally, because you don't want to then say the whole entire team did this, but actually you can Come across with clearly.The impact that's had a new and Hell made you feel or how you interpreted that action then and then while you're sharing from a personal sense and you're not kind of globalizing it to, then they are able to one understand or to ask questions or or three, correct?
Because potentially the assumption that you made was actually not really true.Absolutely.And what is very important here is to It, we see the same things.The same situation in a completely different way, and if we don't realize that this is what's happening, we will start creating assumptions based on our and I call the bubble or lens or goggles that we all wear.
So we interact with one another and we were surrounded by the bubble of your previous experience.Your upbringing, your knowledge, what you read, you heard what you keep telling yourself on a daily basis, how you were programmed basically?If we imagine people wearing colorful sunglasses, every person has a different color and it distorts the reality.
But often we forget that this person might be seeing the exact same situation completely differently and that creates those assumptions and is dangerous because it's a source of incivility, it's a source of Gossip of venting, it really harms our workplace culture and the relationships as well.
So, to move past that somewhat, because I'm fortunate having open conversations.It's a form, potentially, a form of conflict, but then the word conflict, somewhat has this negative connotation that conflict is bad and you should avoid all conflict and then keep the peace.
But essentially, At least my experience.I started to view conflict differently in a sense that he was an opportunity to figure something out and create a better solution if we had differing opinions.So conflict in a way because Discovery process and leaning into the conflict, but that took a lot of practice.
Also, a lot of coaching and courage, courage.But then how would you someone like if someone was having this Kind of like feeling that I really want to say something but I didn't, they have this conflict version kind of habit or something.
What's up is there an easy having leaning into these conversations?It starts with changing your approach towards config like you said, because it does have that bad connotation configure, that I don't like conflict people.Imagine people shouting and throwing things at each other, which is that it is a part of conflict.
That let me put it that way, if you don't have conflicts in your workplace, it That you're working with robots or sociopaths, which I think if we don't want conflict is a part of our Humanity.It is any situation when 2 people want different things and if we look at that for the research perspective, there's many different types of conflicts about what we want about, how we want to get there about the relationship itself.
So we just have there's that Vibe between us that we just don't match, we just don't click With and also the power Dynamic.So there's that the basic four types of conflict that we recognize any situation in life when you have a different opinion, different plan.
Let's say you're standing in front of the board in the prep room and you're thinking, okay, what should we do first?Do we do three Denzel's in a row and all the more complicated surgeries or do we do something differently and people have different opinions and plants and reasons behind it in Conflict, it actually Starts with you.
Because you might have very specific reasons why you want things to be that specific way.Why you want this to be achieved?Not the other thing.So like anything in Emotion, intelligence Ria, it starts with that self-awareness.
What triggers me, what matters to me and why that I'm not blindly just being pulled over by my program in my head that I'm not aware of that.I'm a puppet of my own own emotions and believes that deep rooted in me.
That I know all.This is part of me.This is a little Gremlin there and I can behave accordingly, manage the gremlin and do that with other people on board.When there's a relationship that we are talking about that.We both need to navigate.
There's a lot of self-awareness in that.How do you develop it?Because even when you talked earlier about the, the example of the person saying, listen, when you late to work, there's the Practical aspects.That we should rather talk about the emotional aspects of when you laid to work.
It makes me feel like you don't, I get frustrated because I feel like you don't care and we've got a clash of values or something.Even, even just that simple thing.It's very easy to just feel that emotion of annoyance and frustration or the way you want to tackle this day, it's different to me and I'm pick up a bristle, but they're not realizing why, my bristling, how do you get?
How do you develop that skill of going?I feel this emotion Where is it coming from?Where is it really coming from?What is it about me?That makes me feel that way, so that I can talk to you with Clarity.How do you get there?Because it's not, I wasn't taught that it's cool.
That I definitely wasn't taught that a trade school.I wasn't at that either.My family or school, or vet school.Absolutely not and this is, this is why we carry the power of emotion intelligence into that world now.So the self-awareness, it is.
Something that you very often, see that you need it and you don't have it when you hit the rock.Bottom.When you repeat certain behaviors when you develop a habit of getting very anxious every Sunday night before you go to work on Monday morning or when you keep having the same difficult interactions with your colleagues.
This is when you realize that there's something really not working.Then I have no idea and you need to be motivated.First of all, if you know that, I would love to have a really good quality relationships and I would like to be very Charge of my own life then you get that motivation.Okay, I suppose I would should learn more about myself so that motivation is the first step.
The second step is to find time but really prioritize that moment that I really need to sit for five minutes a day, 10 minutes a day, or maybe an hour a day and start pondering on who I am, what I'm doing.Looking at yourself from the distance, take a step step back engage someone who External, it can be a very honest, brutally honest friend.
It can be a therapist in.Can be a coach, someone who will help you to gain a different perspective on your behaviors.So, for example, you you feel motivated.Now, I want to change something about my life, this is not working for me.That first step the Second Step you see.
Okay, I keep doing this.I keep fighting Thursday afternoon, we've done that particular nurse at work.For example, then you need to start disassembling that situation.What is actually happening?
What is the person doing?And when do I exactly react to that?My is, it is specific.Word is the specific behavior type of the day?Maybe a tool that the person is using and then start pondering to know why?
But what is my experience with that?What did I learn throughout my life about this situation?Some people are programmed to, really avoid conflict, because the parents they they fought so much.They were fighting many many times in their childhood and to them.
It meant danger or amend silent days for months afterwards.So it's a threat.Something unpleasant that we really want to avoid because we are programmed that way.We'll do everything we can to avoid it.
These are those beliefs.So we gradually start digging into the beliefs that we have and researchers.They describe those three different brains, different systems that we use in our thinking and in our behavior and one is our logical thinking.
So the prefrontal cortex activating and analyzing and making the wealth of through decisions.The second one is the cheap chimp, might I make De la blah, blah blah blah.You know, fighting yelling escaping or that fight flight, freeze response.
And the third one is that autopilot that we have the deeply deeply rooted beliefs that we don't often recognize that we have them.But the truth is that the chimp the reactive part of our brain.
It kind of consults with our beliefs before it reacts So, let's say, if you have a deep belief, I am worthless people don't like me.I am not a good person.When the chimp sees the situation a threat where potentially a pass, my not like you or my reject you it will consult first with your deep belief.
Oh yeah.I think yeah.This is who you are.You're a bad person.So your chamber react really intensive so does that is the jump go.Hey, I noticed this What did you do?Did he just say what?I think he said.Did he just call us a loser?Now they'd sedating that's that you worthless and then the believe goes.
Yep.And in the typical should I should I go ape shit?Yes yep you should you should re spot.It seems like exactly.I love this.Yeah, you showed a beautifully.So how I want to expose the, how do we get better at?
It is.As you say commit, the time to do the work, we're not going to find a solution in a inner one and a half hour per Podcast.But I think.Is the message that if there are these things, there's repetitive patterns as you say, it doesn't have to be that way.
There's a reason for it gets some help to figure out the Y and figure out the mechanisms of dealing with it.Is that the?Is that a good way to summarize it?Yes.And I would really, really highlight to be super self-compassionate as you do it, because you might discover that you have some programming those autopilot beliefs It's within you that they are not true.
They really suck.They are really harsh.They are not helpful, but they've been programmed there, but you're a bringing your parents, everything to happen to you.And you might start beating yourself up.What I, why am I such a messed up person and accept it.
No one is perfect.We've got our elements of thinking that do not serve us and we all do, there's no exception.Unless there's someone out there in the world, please let me know.I would love to get to know you.I would love to meet you one day, and if we accept that we are not perfect, it will be there.
Something within me that works against me they say, fine, cool, you're there.What do I do about that?And how do I take my chimp that how do I choose to response thoughtfully rather than reacting on the spot spontaneously?
And without our control, be nice to each other to yourself and to each other.But if you're not kind to yourself, well, no one will be or you'll never accept the kindness from other people.Dave stuff, huh.
One thing that's I heard ages ago that really helped me was changing the first word that came to my mind from one that was like - and reactive like I haven't like you can't happen just for you hacked, right?
For some degree like you mind just interprets what happens?And then impart its beliefs on top of it and the the word that used to be was like I don't know like fun.Yeah.Something like all this shit.Or whatever.But then now although the word for me is you just right?
And then so it's become a habit.Now that I, if anything, that's really bad, that happens.I just go interesting.And then it's kind of stops.This role is just that one word that's made a big difference for me in terms of slowing down the chimp.
And then the other one was the realization that Like the need to be right?Can be so ingrained that I always ask myself.Am I just fight you this?Because I want to be right?And like how do I know that I am right and that and then half the time I'm like, well, I don't know, you probably not right and then you know what, you probably don't know what you learned a little while ago, ages ago, stop it rightly more.
And how do I know that their way of doing things is not going to work out just because I think it's not going to work.Gout, so then most of the times now, I just like, in a way it's like stuff doesn't FaZe as much as anymore.Yeah.Because I just letting go of the need to be right was one of the big things for me.
So I guess the question is why do you want to be right so badly?Why do we get stuck and stubborn?What does it mean or why do some people have such trouble with apologizing?Where you maybe thought that apologizing?
Or not being great means being weak.We're not worthy or did the need to be right to prove the value that you bring to prove the knowledge that you have.Because you might have this feeling or belief that you're not good enough, you don't know enough.
So therefore, you over, you know, you put yourself out there and make sure everyone knows that, you know, stuff and everyone's right and wrong because this kind of deep-seated insecurities that I just feel like as if you Don't know your shit.So you just share your shit more.
Well at least what I figured was that my need to be right my need to be heard now on podcasts and now I'm talking right.But but but he do right?As a leader as Hospital.Director as a trainer, it was coming down to the desire to be significant and for people to know that I knew something and that you my role.
I should be the person to decide.And if I'm not deciding, then I'm not doing my role.And so blah, blah blah, blah ultimately the end.I stop deciding people made much better decisions than I did because they have much more context, a much more information that I had.
And I just yeah, really good book on the topic for anyone who struggles with changing their mind.And they might be very stubborn in the way of thinking is think again by Adam Grant read a really good book and it shows that people who are the best, Leaders in the world people who are the most successful and the most respected are those who actually stopped for a second with someone suggests a different solution or questions them, this you give me a sec.
Let me think about that.Maybe you're right, I need to go back to my resources, I need to go back to what I know and then I will consider what you said.I respect you as a person.I respect your opinion.I'll take that on board and let me think about that.And then very often changing.
Your mind is the most adult.So, mature, intelligent think that you can do in your life and I will never forget one of the Fantastic surgeons that I work with, in my, my career when I was so progressing towards the surgical path with dr.
Smeek in Colorado and he's a wonderful surgeon and he works with students and students questioned him.They asked him and say he says always just give me a second.I think Let me see if you're right because you might be, I might be wrong.
There's also a chance for that and that gained so much respect from those students.How beautifully made you feel?When someone actually accepts your opinion and Texas on board?Yeah, such a safe environment there and the Temptation when you are in a mentoring or a senior leadership role of any sort.
Is to want to give answers because you kind of feel like it's your job.And I actually when we talk clinically this is stepping away from the self-awareness and their relationship stuff, even just clinically and I'm sure you'll both of you will agree.The more you learn the deeper, you dig.The more you realize, how much you don't know.
So then when you get Junior colleagues or people asking you a question, what about this in this in this?Whereas ten years ago I would have answered with quite a lot of certainty because I would have felt well they want to know I know I'll tell you how it is.And I find that less and less easy its board.
More to the point of well, I used to think this.Now I learned this, I'm not sure about that.What do you think?Which I feel it sometimes, as somebody trying to teach somebody, I'm glad to hear you say that because I often feel like it's a cop-out, like saying, are you asking me something and I'm not giving you an answer.
But the honest truth is not 100% certain on a lot of things, more and more.So I think the best thing that you can do as a leader As a mentor as someone who works with people who look up to them, is to normalize not knowing everything and normalize open discussions and ready taking on board.
This is the bravest the most vulnerable thing that you can do as a leader is someone who is in charge, who is a role model both of you, I'm sure they you are role models to someone out there in the world.And if you normalize that they would take that with them, they will feel more.
Stubble to make a mistake or say something silly their opinion but also, they will spread that further because they will become one day leaders.They will be Role Models.So the trickles down through the hole, all the layers of our career stages.
The other thing that I find also is that when you allow people to question you, you is that it allows the space for other people to contribute to feel like as if they had to say and then it just frees up your time and you're in like in the long term.
If frees up your time by not having to be this bottleneck of, we have to run everything by this person, because if we don't then like you just you just start to stifle your own growth and personal growth and career progression because you just like that and I can get by and then you end up being a person that everyone has to come to use day, just fills up with all these things.
That theoretically, these people should be able to decide on their own and it takes letting go of some of the control and that's not easy, isn't it?Yeah, especially for those who are used to making decisions and it comes from a good place because they have the knowledge to very often make the good decision.
They want the best for the team.They don't want them to suffer a go through their own mistakes.Stumble, get out.Up clean up the mess very often, we want to save time so instead of letting someone make that mistake which is going to do this because it's going to be faster, right?
It's going to be less mess around, but then is it serving anyone around?You takes your time, it consumes your energy and it leaves people without the new skills and knowledge.You kind of make them dependent on you so it can be very tricky if we get stuck in that attitude.
Yeah.Change of tack complete change of tech, I'd love to find out a bit about you live.We kind of fell straight into your expertise and I actually wanted to ask about you and your journey.You mentioned a little bit earlier about when I was going down the surgery.
Path.Tell us a little bit.How do you go from this?It well what did the surgery path look like what were your goals and then how did we end up as an emotional intelligence coach another word, it dignity coach, whatever.Got to tell me what a dignity coach is, as well as part of the story.
So, long story short, initially when I came to UK, because I graduated in Poland over seven years ago.I came to UK to follow the surgical path.I've always liked the area of surgery because it's very much DIY Hands-On and my very handsy past.
If you can say that I really like three weeks stuff, some very creative persons while.So I really loved it and I followed that path and I'm very grateful.Grateful for that because it pulled me towards UK towards the more Western world.And I started my journey going through the different levels of as you do internship and other internship because charity general, practice loads of referral centers.
And as I went through that, I follow the tunnel vision, I thought that was meant to be, for me.There was supposed to be a surgeon and the first big lesson that I got in there is first of all, it's a difficult job.Job, there's many different people, many different flavors of people and they treating many different ways, some of them, they treat you badly for whatever internal reasons.
Most of those reasons are very painful, internal reasons.So I experienced a lot of incivility, a lot of bullying conflicts and that is you can see now really inspired me to learn how to manage and alleviate those difficulties in our profession life.
I always had that passion to Or psychology, I always say that.I knew more about my colleagues and my patients at work because they really wanted to talk.And when you find someone who asks, question is really genuinely interested in your life?
So boom, whoosh.Opens up that the door and everything just comes out.So people really wanted to share with me, and I appreciate it.I wanted to support them.And at some point I realized that my tunnel vision that Lll ambition, it wasn't serving me.
It wasn't good place for me.It just wasn't, I wasn't my real self and that was the moment when I went back to my passion of psychology and it really, really helped me.And then new people came in and they started talking to me about that and I thought, you know, I can help them and it's first of all good to them, but second of all, it's such a satisfying process to me.
So that became my focus and my my true Mission and passion to support people who they weren't similar situations to me, they were not supported, they were harsh towards themselves and also the workplace wasn't helping them in this whole process.
I moved into working with teams and leaders, gradually starting with individuals that now working mainly with leaders and teams because you need to have environment for well.Think you can't be just one person.I always always highlight that this is so important to look at that.
Holistically, if you want to have healthy team, it's within the hands of the individual, the team.So the Dynamics between the people and the management and the policy makers, and people who make decisions this in every single level, and it's a very interesting truly, truly satisfying process to observe how those Dynamics can change.
So, now, Now my main focus is emotion intelligence or agility.If you want to color like that in Veterinary profession, bringing the power of the self awareness and those Dynamics into our workplaces because when you think about that emotions are with us all the time and we don't know how to manage them emotions were manage us and we will be like those puppets and we want to be powerful.
So this is why I now Focus.Whole energy into Vicki, trainings.Can I Circle back a little bit to your experience that led to this your surgery experience and the bullying?
And then you say that you found out that your tunnel vision wasn't serving, you, okay.It goes back to what we talked about earlier about actively actively stepping back taking time and evaluating what's happening with me.But I'd love to know how what did it look like a feel like to you.
You to realize that this isn't serving me, this thing that I thought is the thing that I want, that I've committed so much of my time to might not be my thing.In fact, it might be the thing that's making me unhappy and then so a, what did that process of recognizing?
It look like for you.And how did you let go of that dream?Because it's a big thing for specially for us.Be very, very goal-driven.As you don't get into vet school without being pretty be single-minded.And then to say, well, I'm going to become a surgeon and I'm committed so many years already.
It's a very courageous thing to say, actually know, maybe I'm maybe I'm not.Can you talk us through that, please?I'm not gonna lie.It was probably the most difficult situation in my life, definitely professionally.
Because imagine that you have a strong belief system, everything that you ever believed in Connected, your future to advise you who you are.I'm a vet, I'm a surgeon, your whole identity and suddenly it all collapses.
It's it's gone and it feels like someone just taking away the ground from underneath your feet and you're falling, you really falling.So it was really scary.It was incredibly difficult.It was also because it was my decision.
I could have continued what I was doing but it was my decision.It was also really empowering after that initial fear being completely lost because then it, It opens up a space and freedom, okay?If this is not what I want, if my tunnel expands suddenly and there's more space for Choice.
What is it that I actually want to do with my life?And it was a beautiful feeling but it takes months to get to that stage and once I opened that up I realized oh my God, there's so much I want to do and that I would, I will do if I have an opportunity for training and then again, The.
Oh okay.It's going to take a lot of my effort at work.Now I have to study again, go back to doing your degrees.So it's not going to be easy, but it's really you have that feeling that.It's worth it.Sometimes it's much more difficult when you don't have a support network.
When you have people who doubt your question, you start your decision when they question your decision and it was my case for my family, it was completely, they couldn't understand.Why, why would you drop such a prestigious?His job and path and up.
Until today my parents they still question they apologized at some point to me.We are sorry that we didn't support you at a time but still, they are not sure.What is it that I do?And the more I speak, the more I work with the teams and the leaders.
The more they see that it's really making me happy, but it was harsh little, you seem happy, you look really happy.Look, I don't know what you look like when you are doing it, but the little that I see.No, not like that.I'm so fascinated with and I've talked about it before in the podcast that process of Rock, Bottom, the change.
The thing that triggers the change.When it's so interesting, you use the words?If not this, then what edit that so funny because I could find you, I have an old diary, I do jack.Colonel.But I have a always have a book with me, that I'll, it'll be hard to do list, but thinking writing at Thinking, Out Loud clinical stuff, everything's like my brain Dump book that I always have with me. and and I put a long time, I realized that full-time clinical general practice Veterinary work, wasn't my thing, but I was too scared or unsure or don't know, no, I don't know how to explain it, but I Didn't make the time.
We didn't explore enough white but I got to a point where and I didn't have a dramatic event or anything but I have Allied written in a diary that says in big black letters.If not this, what the fuck?And I didn't have the answer to the what the fuck, I didn't have it then and there but I it was just a point of going.
It's definitely not this.So start focusing on what else?Start thinking.Start exploring start acting on.Finding that I think otherwise you're going to be stuck in this threat that does not serve you until you retire.
One day, you're going to be miserable bastard for the rest of your life.Make a change that price is for you.You see the word collapse?Was it a sudden collapse or was it a slow attrition to a low point?That was low enough to say?Okay, I can't tolerate this.I'm stepping out into something different.
To me was a gradual process, so I think it's a bit worse than just selling hitting rock bottom, but I did definitely did burn out and there was just so many different little elements that we're making me unhappy that accumulation of those was just too much to bear, and then you get to the point where the pain of staying where you are over ways, the pain of stepping into something unknown and then you choose that other pain.
That's okay too.Scary as hell, but Irene you to make that change.And what you said that question?Like, if not this then, what the heck should I do with my life?There are thankfully ways to guide yourself in that process.So, so one of the listeners is at that point thinking, what should I do, should I stay or should I go, what should I do with my life?
I would really encourage you to find out observe your days and see when and in what situation you're actually feeling really good at your best.That this is what gives me pleasure that I'm really good at because the worst thing that we want for someone who is diversifying or changing or even changing the practice not necessarily dropping.
The veterinary medicine is to drop into another place, that is not good, and start doing something that will consumer energy and time and preparation study, and you will figure out, okay?This is not that either.There's nothing wrong about trying different things, but I don't want you to go in the completely wrong.
Direction just because someone told you, oh if you're not that, maybe you should be a lawyer.That's good money.That is a good profession and you're like, okay, I will try that's social programming and it might be one of the reasons what maybe you had that.
It took you a long time to make that decision.We are programmed by people around us saying, this is what you should be doing.But to be honest on your deathbed is just you You don't have Society or other people around, you analyzing your life.Back.
How well did you live your life?How happy you are with it, it's just you.So the person who actually makes decisions about the future, it should be.You not those around you.It's worth listening to them.Take that on board their advice, but listen to your values and don't be scared.
Gosh is so worth it.Easier said than done, don't be scared.Oh yeah, well, there's so many people who can help.Yeah, you know, per person in that life Fork, so get help.
Don't be dared to get help be vulnerable, though.I think we bad at that, I think we really bad at that as humans, but I think, as a profession because we problem solve, its people come to us to solve problems.So then we have a problem.We go, well, I've gotta solve it.And I found a almost, an arrogance of going.
Well, I'm smarter than most of the people, I know.So, yeah.How they gonna help me?I could figure this out myself but it's, it doesn't work.It did.When you went through that, it did you have external hell?Did you stumble along in the darkness and find your own way?
Or did you have a mentor or I had a mentor somebody who helped you through your decision making process.I had a mentor, I'm thankful in the relationship.That is the person's very supportive.So it It's very helpful.But I would say for those of you who think, no, I should handle that myself, I should have all the answers.
Think about spittle, big referral hospital where you have so many different Specialties.You are have a cardiologist, you will have Orthopedic Department, you will have soft tissue internal medicine or even more division into specific disease.
We have a group of people team of people who try to help the patient.Patient.How on Earth can you be all those different Specialists and all those different people for yourself and many different areas of your own life?
We were born into tribes for a reason to gain from the tribe and to give to the tribe.So we are not only islands.We were never meant to be allow yourself to get the best out of people around you.
All those Specialists who can support you like mentors, like my counselors like coaches, like a really good friend who will kick your ass and said, you know what?It's time for change like that.Let me use your sentence.The about, we are part of the tribe.I want to bring us back to the beginning of the conversation.
When we talked about teams about social relationships in teams, we were talking about close friends at work versus keeping some separations and can having friends outside of work or relationships or hobbies and things outside of work.So why do we aim for what?
- no such thing as a perfect team.But what do we work to Ward's in a team?What is a good team Dynamic look like, in terms of emotional closeness?Is it better to keep your distance?Do you engage?What are you coach?What do you teach?
So are you from my perspective?The perfect team is a place where everyone can set up their own boundaries and discuss those boundaries with others and then we respect those boundaries, it's a very individual.Think the Out of time, Dad.I do want to spend with you how much I want to share with you but if you work in a workplace that doesn't even allow the discussion about the boundaries and appreciates the individual individuality of the people, then you can't be true to yourself that, right?
So if it's an environment, we say, okay, fine, let's have a chat.How do we want to cooperate with one another?How do we want to?How much do we want to release to one another?How close do we want to be and it Two beating meeting.
It's something that the leader sets out the tone.So, for example, if they say, in this team, we appreciate that.It's made of many different people that everyone will have their own needs, that will be to a different degree.I'm happy for you guys to establish that between one another to respect that individuality and then the smaller Groves between one.
Another have open conversations but it all starts with the leader who sets the tone I'm giving you permission.Permission to do it that way, and I'm going to respect that myself and I'm hoping that you will respect.What I want.How I like my boundaries to be set.
Yeah, that's important because I, I think that we've such a culture of this is what wait life should look like and that started at University.And, I mean, you talked about your surgery experience, this is what an internship looks like, and we assume that that's what it has to look like.
And when we feel like it doesn't fit So you have a life change, you know, maybe you want to do different things, career-wise or your focus becomes a family, or a relationship or anything else, it can be really hard to have the courage to say that because you go, but that's not going to work.
Because vet practice looks like this.I need to be there at 7:00.I need to leave at 7:00.Why did you stay back?And if I don't fit that mold, it's not going to be acceptable.And I think we assume that but more and more.So certainly compared to when I started it, is that Leti and and especially with the veg shortage.
I think there's a lot more openness from leaders to go.Okay well I know this is what it used to look like but how can we make this work for you to fit with your values?And I say it out up front and I'm upfront with Mike, I still do clinical work.But my focus is broadcast.
That's my number one priority so and it can Clash for me emotionally because I don't like leading teams down.If somebody says can you do an extra shift?And I always have to say no because I've got something else organized.I still feel like a slacker but it was still guys, I should say yes because that's what way to do we just say yes, we do it.
Otherwise I'm leading the bus down of the team down or something and it's very hard sometimes to say, no.That's not my priority.I have other things.When I'm at work, 100% you have about a hundred percent, but when I'm not, either things.
So long, long spiel to say, if I'm a leader, how do I win and where, and how do I set that expectation or the how do I allow people?Is it?You said it doesn't have to be a team meeting.But into team communication and talking about these things is often hard.
So how is it team leader?Do I go about expressing that come, talk to me, tell me why do you want, how do we make this fit for, or what works for you?And to be honest, it starts with the process of recruitment, because if you having that team, someone whose values are really, really far from yours.
I don't think it's a good match and there's nothing wrong about going from one place to another until you find the right place.For Or yourself.So, starting with the right questions, when you get to know that person are we on the same page?Do we see the clinical work in the same way?
Do we see our commitment in the same way?So aligning those values of the very, very beginning of, really, really helps.And then let's say you're a new leader.You stepping into the team that is already set your not recruiting them.They're already they're setting, that example of having loads of one-on-one conversation.
So you get to know Your team.You can respect somebody's value if you don't know what the value is if you don't know about the life.So really prioritizing spending time one-on-one with your team and getting to know them giving them opportunity to open up because it takes some time if you have 50 minutes for them.
Once in three months they're not going to be honest with you.They're going to try to be who you they think you want them to be really.So it's really a, creating an environment in which people can open up a meeting of Outside of work for some social events.It's really good.
Well we are really human selves when we go climbing or I don't know to the beach or just we drop our professional masks on the side and we can be ourselves.So finding the time to get to know the people that's for sure.
Definitely in your decision.Making if you are making some changes in the team allow them to have an input be very open to that input.It doesn't mean that You will do exactly what they want you to do.It means that you show them respect and that you appreciate their opinion enough to take it on board, but ain't you are a leader.
You are the deciding person.But you would like to use that pool of information that is offered to you from many different people.So they have the autonomy and a bit of control in there to impact the future of the practice.That's very important.Makes people really good around you when you need to manage the conflict.
For example, how you Do it.How do you help people to find peace between one another and speaking of boundaries, very important one, if you want your team to be healthy physically and emotionally if you want them to have boundaries, If it's 6 p.m. and you're finishing, it's 6 p.m. no one will criticize you for just leaving it at 6 p.m. because this is your boundary.
And if you show that to your employees, it will be okay for them to leave at that specific time as much as they can do with it within that work time and make sure everything is okay to pass on.If you yourself, stay long hours, if you burn yourself out, Why should your team not do the same?
You're setting an example for them.Yes, it's not easy to be a leader.Huh?How to talk one's about Ventura search in the UK about why young Reds?Leave the profession.And one of the key things was and I forget the author.
I wish I could quote it, but one of the key things was I don't again.It's comes with values.I don't feel a part of this profession.Session, because X Y, and Z.And one of the big reasons was I look at my boss or at the team leaders with the senior vet and I look at how they work and what their lives look like.
And I go that's not going to be me in 20 years, I'm out of here.And what do we look at?We look at the leader who goes, right?It's my practice.It's my business.I should set the example.I'll be the first one.Here, I'll be the last one home.I'll pick up all the extra shifts.
My relationship is going to suffer.My kids aren't going to see me and we think that it's a favor to our teams but the youngsters are looking at you going.That sucks.I don't know what that for life.I'm going to study something else.I'm out.Yeah, yeah and even when that happens when you are in that place in your career as a leader, if you're the owner of the practice and I need to put all the hours in, this is my time, explain that to the team.
We talk about Clarity today if and that Life balance that doesn't exist.If they are going to see you coming at 6 a.m. and leaving at 10:00 p.m. that day.Tell them guys, we are financially in that stage where this company really needs me.
And this company is my baby there and you will see me a lot but in no means it means that I require from you to do the same because my priorities are in that specific place at this moment, it's going to change for me.You have your priorities and I would like you to To do, you do your Healthy thing?
Consult that with me, explain to me what is important to you?How can we put those puzzle pieces together?So it actually works be clear, the gift of knowledge, the guns are really like that knowledge and knowledge.Only happens when we share what we think and feel that's really good.
How are you for time live?I could do this all day.I love chatting to you.I love listening to you.You very good speaker.Usually I'm sure you hear this all the Time come on.No no I really appreciate you saying that because it's not my native language, some of my very self-critical.
That's my programming about that.So thank you so much.I've got time the comment that you just made the right, that's your programming the self-consciousness about your accent and I'm sorry if this is personal, but we talked a lot about imposter syndrome and you've put yourself in lots of situations.
Nations, where I imagine?Feeling like all my doing here.Am I good enough for this?Me the surgery thing series big and scary.It's traditionally a middle-aged man's career, the big tough surgeon and there's this girl with an accent, becoming a surgeon and then the next stage of your life going, okay?
Well now I'm going to talk about big personal stuff, scary stuff.It is, or was the Temptation there, to think?Who am I to talk about this?Who am I to teach other people?Did you feel that?Do you feel that?And if so, how, because it's important work, and you do it really well.
So I'm so glad that you've overcome it, if you have overcome it, but but how, hmm, how yeah, you hit the nail on the head because most recent one was read really big obstacle for me.Initially when I moved from one career to another eat.
Imagine you do something for years in your training death and suddenly you decide to be a beginner.Again, there's that fear of, do I know enough when is that point?When I know enough, when am I good enough to pass that on to train other people?
Thankfully, in this area of, of supporting people in coaching mental health and psychology, it's so Humanity based it's so deeply rooted in who we are as human beings and thankfully.That's very, very individual.Owl.So you can't say that there's a gold standard of human behavior and watch.
This person should be doing.You can say that and everyone has a very individual experience in there.So I knew for sure that I had life experience that allowed me to connect with people and there's so much obviously that will always have to learn and I keep training myself.
As we speak I have I'm in other courses at the moment to always deepen my knowledge because we'll never know it all They realized, you know, if I can help at least a little bit, one person at a time, step by step.If I can make their day, if I'm not going to repair their problems, it's going to be them who's going to repair their own problems but if I can support them ever, so slightly, that is enough.
There's a good reason for me to be in that coaching position and to support others.And then you also mentioned dignity.Some time ago in this this interview, we talked about About dignity and you ask, how can you?Yeah.Dignity.Kites, which is making more, the EQ coach, the emotion intelligence coach, but dignity is big part of it and dignity.
Something that actually can really protect us from the Imposter syndrome because the science of dignity assumes that we are all equal at the core as human beings.So we are all worthy of being on this Earth.
Being loved being suspected of being treated.Well, that's basically the size of dignity and regardless of your role color of your skin.We all have it.So when I speak about my experience and I put a bit of salt and pepper of my knowledge and expertise in Psychology into that it has its own space in the world, it deserves to be listened to by those who need it.
Not everyone will need it but those who need it.They will find it useful.So, every single thing that we do, every single experience that we have, we deserve to be here to talk about it.
We are all equal and the same and obviously some people will be more trained in certain areas or less strain but then in different area with within the same person in different area of their life, they will have more experience than the other path.So it's kind of we are not Uniform.
We are made of so many different elements, so many different experiences and knowledge Theory, whatever you read, listen to you study.We are made of everything together, so you can't really compare people to one another.You can't really say this coach is a better Coach than the other coach, because someone else will say the, otherwise, they will say that.
No.Actually, this coach is much better to me.So it makes the world of psychology coaching, a little bit different, the medicine then, veterinary medicine.However, I would still say there are certain gold standards towards which we work.
And yet those gold standards change over time, right?What was the gold standard?20 years ago is not anymore.Now, you definitely would do a CT scan of elbows.If you're suspecting elbow dysplasia and maybe 20, 30 50 years ago, x-ray.
Fantastic, we're done.This is all we needed.So even within medicine, there's nothing that is that entirely set in stone and there's always space for discussion and because of the dignity, everyone deserves to be heard in the discussion, That protects me against my imposter syndrome.
Like the look, I'm glad it does and we do probably have to start driving.I take it.You're a podcast listener or at least an audiobook listener, or something used.I don't know why you strike me as that.I think is your curiosity.That makes me think that you'd listen to stuff.Have you got any recommendations for me as a podcast?
Tragic, what I should put on my players, there is actually a new one that I found very interesting.It's called rethinking by Adam Grant.I mentioned he's booked so he does interviews with Specialists from different areas and he talks on specific topics.
It's also presented in a very approachable way.It's not very scientific.It's something that any person regardless of the role or backroom they could benefit from so rethinking by Adam Grant.That's the one that I would recommend love is stuff is very easy to listen to any, makes this comp complicated Concepts really like Vegetable and looks like fun so I but I haven't seen that particular one so I'm gonna go look for that magic.
Alright, the last question.You're at a conference which you often find yourself at these days and you have all of the veggie new grads of the world about to step into the veggie careers, and you have a couple of minutes to give them just one bit of advice.What would you say to them a couple things?
One is that Don't build a prison for yourself.Don't limit yourself, don't assume who you are now.You'll stay forever.
Don't build that tunnel that I had that tunnel vision and was so hard to expand it.Give yourself some space and flexibility there and just trust the journey you will show you which way to go.So don't be too rigid.That's the one in.
The second one is to really prioritize getting to know yourself again.If you don't know yourself everything that you do in life and how How other people treat you?You will never sit right with you.You will never be at peace with your decisions.
If you don't know what truly truly matters to you.So that sourness.It's a key.It's a foundations.Beautiful thing beautiful, too.Would you start with that process?If you go right, I've done nothing on this front.
I've been spending the last seven years learning about fixing sick animals, but now I want to start working on telfa way in a sweep.What's the what's the very first step of saying?Well, let me get to know myself because we're very bad at that.Look at the evidence.
So when we kind of reverse that process, if we normally would say, oh, this is important to me, I'll make a And that decision will lead me to some actions and those actions will make me happy or unhappy like that's the reverse technology and look what is making happy now.
What is making you miserable?Or just doesn't sit well with you.What is comfortable?What is uncomfortable?And then if something is comfortable find out why, what specifically makes it really comfortable for you and feel so good.
And if something is very unpleasant and difficult, What specifically makes it so difficult for you and that will guide you follow, what is good to use?Feels really real that you don't have to pretend someone else that will show you what is authentic to yourself.
And those things that are very difficult, they will, By exclusion show you that made this is not what I want to have in my life step by step based on the evidence that you have in front of you.And anyone who you talk to, they will know at least a little bit about what makes them happy or not.
It's a very easy start, I forget where this is from, but I like this sentence that says consult your resentment and I use resentment as a broad term.
Or exactly those negative emotions that you mention this is making me really angry or just makes me really anxious and instead of running away from it going.Okay, well, why what about this is it that and that even works, clinically I've done this a few times at work where there's a procedure that I don't want to do.
And then I stop and go.Why don't you want to do this?I don't have the skills.Good answer.Okay.Don't have the skills referred or get the skills or yeah, I have the skills but I'm hungry or I want to get her, you know.So there's a reason.But figure out figure out why stop for a second and go and that and then take that to Everyday Life.
Why why does this upset me so much?I love that you said, the word resentment.I don't know if you know, but it's from the same group of emotions as jealousy and envy because it really means that I am in a situation where I am probably missing something that the other person has and makes me feel really, really bad.
In this situation, resentment is a big part of burnout.When we become really, really burner, we start to resent people who are seemingly really happy and they have fantastic work life.Balance and doing really well, they take care of themselves.
Resentment is when we know that there's something happened within me.I really don't want this or I would like to have what the other person has like happiness.Like free time, like finishing on time.So resentment tells you a lot tells you what you're missing or what Badness you have and you don't want to have I could do this all day but you probably do have to wrap up.
Live.Thank you so much for your time and I'm glad you didn't become a surgeon.Personally, I think a lot of people, well I'm sure there's lots of dogs who are sad that you didn't didn't become his head, but there's a lot of surgeons and I don't think there's a lot of Olivia cat in the world.
Thank you so.So much for making the time to come and chat to us and we really look forward to having you in Australia.So we could do some face-to-face stuff.We can people find you if they do want to get into your stuff for work with you all.Or just just stay in touch with you.It's my website is be human savvy.com.
So being human Savvy is the goal for for my work, to help people become human Savvy and more emotion intelligent and also on Instagram you can find me we can put the little links handles there so they will find me in the notes.I will be speaking at the AV Congress this year in Australia on Sunday, and then I've got the plenary session on Wednesday so I will.
Peta.If you want to come say hi.I would love to get to know you.And then later on the same year, I'll be talking about emotion intelligence than veteran medicine during the vet Expo, so you can find me there, please reach out email, you'll find my email on the website.
I'm happy to support you with any issues, especially those that Dynamics within the team, especially if you're a leader, who does their very best, but it never seems enough and this still not your team where you want them to be.I'm really happy to support you in that process because that's, that's what I do now, the daily basis.
But thank you so much you for having me because this was a really interesting conversation.I love your Insight.And there are those inside.You guys are not only from a different country, but from different clinical environments.It's so rich.So helpful for me to see your perspective.
I really really love it.This they're educated me as well.So for this episode, instead of me telling you how great our clinical podcaster, I thought I'd read you a little email from one of our subscribers that I got recently.
Here we go.I recently passed my one-year anniversary of being a bit and in celebrating this Milestone of transitioning from new grad to recent grad, I've been reflecting on everything and everyone that has helped me learn and grow during my first year out.I just wanted to let you know that the vet V Roads and show notes, have come to my rescue.
Several times.In my first year of clinical practice working in, rural mix, practice and struggling by my lonesome, with after hours console, I've turned to the Red Road Show notes for help multiple times.My first ever block cat was a case that I was seeing by myself and after hours, when I was only a few months into practice and I can't express how much of a relief.
It was to be able to quickly read through the show notes to help organize my scrambled thoughts and prioritize.What I should be doing first and foremost and it's not just for the after-hours that I've used my vet V knowledge, Member fortuitously listening to dr.Mann, this podcast episodes on acidophilic granuloma complexes and allergies and cat.
And the very next day I had a cat come in with an E GC Legion.Instead of having absolutely no idea what it was and floundering in front of the client, not knowing what I was doing.I had a pretty good starting point of what to do.It's been a Saving Grace to access the vet fault Dropbox so that I can quickly duck admit consult and have a nice simple compiled source of up-to-date information.
Now that absolute Madman Day.But that is exactly what we're trying to achieve with these clinical podcast.It's not just for the new grads, the stuff that we discussed in there.Helps me every day in my own personal practice and then the comment there at the end of the show notes in the Dropbox folder.
Well we've got something heaps better.Now I mentioned earlier in this episode the vet V Network and within that Network there is a private space for our faithful subscribers.And in there we have put all of the show notes which at the moment is pushing 400 episodes.
It's with show notes.So it's becoming a bit of a library and that is organized in a numbered fashion in a completely searchable database.So you can plant in any question or any topic or any drug that you want and it will come up with each episode with the associated show notes where we talked about that specific topic so that you can hear exactly what our Specialists had to say about.
Just that question that you had its brand new, it's really awesome.I'm using it everyday for my own cases and we'd love to see you there.So go check it out at VV.N Dot.Super cast.com.Super cast.com.

Dr Olivia Oginska