April 9, 2023

#90: The life changing effect of valuing yourself and your services, and how to get better at it. With Dr Olivia James.

#90: The life changing effect of valuing yourself and your services, and how to get better at it. With Dr Olivia James.
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Season 1

Many of us struggle with attaching a dollars-and-cents value to this ‘fixing animals’ thing that we do for a living. We tell ourselves stories about how our work is a labor of love, about ethics and about the noble nature of our profession, and we underestimate the value of our skills and knowledge. But stories can become limiting beliefs that hold us back from realizing our full potential as veterinary professionals and as thriving humans, which all-too-often ends up with this story that Dr Olivia James hears over and over in her coaching work: "I’m overworked, I’m poor, and I’m lonely."

Dr Olivia James is an equine dentistry specialist, former practice owner, founder and director of the educational platforms The Veterinary Dental Company and The Equine Practice Company and mentor and teacher though the business masterminds and coaching groups she hosts for equine practice owners, and in this episode she helps change our stories and beliefs around valuing our services. Olivia also provides practical strategies for reviewing what you charge in your business. Ultimately, this is a conversation about avoiding 'overworked, poor, and lonely.'

Topic list:

 

2:50 What has Olivia been up to since our last conversation.

7:20 Happy/ Thrive /Flourish: What are we actually aiming for?

9:20 Loneliness in practice.

14:40 How Olivia learnt how to charge.

19:50 Life changes that can happen when your business works better.

26:10 Why it sometimes makes more sense to invest money in the stock market than in buying a practice.

29:10 The mental blocks that make it hard for us to charge appropriately .

30:40 When clients accuse us of 'just being in it for the money.

34:30 Getting the team on board with price changes in your business.

36:50 The three ways of setting your charges.

42:10 The things we commonly fail to account for in working out cost of service.

44:30 The ethics of what we charge.

47:40 How to decide which prices to adjust.

50:30 Tying business to what matter most.

56:00 Olivia's book choices.

59:00 Olivia's answer to the one question.

 

Join our community of Vet Vault Nerds to lift your clinical game and get your groove back with our up to date easy-to-consume clinical episodes at vvn.supercast.com.

Visit thevetvault.com for the show notes and resources for this episode.

Join us in at Vets on Tour in Wanaka, New Zealand on 13 - 18 August 2023 for great CE, live podcasting and snow... lots of snow!

 

 

 

We started this podcast because after 10 years, in practice, I found myself suddenly kind of enjoying vetting, which surprised me after a decade of emotions around work that fluctuated between moments of enthusiasm sometimes tolerance, and sometimes outright resentment.
So, I wanted to figure out why what had changed.I've since figured out that they were many factors that have contributed to, that increased enjoyment of bad life, but one of the reasons was that where I was in my career at that stage, I felt appropriately reward.
I was running a successful business.That allowed me a lot more Financial Freedom which included the flexibility to work lace and do some of the other things that I loved I felt confident in what I was doing and in what I was charging.I felt valued and when I say valued, I mean that in the we appreciate you and what you do way as well as in the dollars and cents or pesos or Rands or Pounds or Euros, kind of away.
But many of us struggle with those dollars.And It's especially when it comes to attaching them to the saving animals thing that we do for a living, this seems to be this mindset of we don't really care about the money but be assured.Here's why.
When Olivia, Our Guest for this episode says that in her coaching work, she is one story over and over and over.I'm overworked, I'm poor and I'm lonely in this conversation.We address that poor apart, including the mindsets that keeps us stuck in this place.
Lace conveniently addressing that part also directly effects the overworked, but and maybe even the loneliness part which we touch on as well.In this conversation, quick note, this episode is not just for practice owners.I don't know about you, but as a currently employed with valuing, what I do is still something that I haven't completely mastered the who's Olivia dr.
Olivia James is an equine Dentistry specialist, a former practice owner and the founder and director of the educational.Forms the veterinary Dental company and the equine practice company and mentor and teacher through the business.Masterminds in coaching groups that you host for equine, practice owners.
Also, one of the greatest achievements was being guest number 19 on the V8 V, we missed that one go never listened to our conversation about balancing family and career.As you can tell Olivia has a lot to teach.But in this conversation, we narrow it down to valuing ourselves and our work in terms of Money, basically, how to avoid overworked Burr and learn.
Well, time is money so let's get to it with dr.Olivia James.Welcome back to the real world, huh?I haven't had the opportunity much to say, welcome back to many people yet.
So we're getting ready.We're getting the favorites back on for around two and it's been going long enough.That enough time has passed between interviews, so that things have changed for you as well.And hopefully you'll or maybe your perspectives of change the things you can teach us have changed.So I'm really excited to dig in with you.
I'm just scrolling back.I want to see where your episode was actually out what number you, it Yeah, I couldn't remember, I was it about parenting or women owning practices or something.Yeah.But making it work, making a career work for you as a parent.So, November 29th is well a while ago and we are now at a pisode 8080.
Something.Well, by the time I release you going to be pretty close.I'm 90.Maybe I'll do that.We will make you 90.So, let's get a summary.So, for anybody want, let's remind people will do a full bio.The beginning again.But equine, industry specialist, previous practice, owner of an equine business.
Equine, practice right mobile practice, my ball with a hospital base with the hospital base and then the specialist thing still working as an equine specialist.Dentist.And what else have you been doing between November 29th, either now, but let's be happening for you, my goodness, so much gosh, where do I even start?
So the specialist thing so that's only really recent.So I think when I was speaking to you last time, My didn't pass my practical exam for the American presidential people, so had to go back and do that was called off in 2020 and was lucky enough to get permission to leave Australia in 2021.
So when over did that managed to pass which we go got a nice two-week holiday and hotel quarantine and really only just two weeks ago.Was my application to be a specialist in Australia.So registered was accepted.Oh, so you're actually only been in a registered officially quantities.
Tree specialist for two weeks less than two weeks.Yeah, good timing.Actually started in 2014, so it's taken a while.What else?We've grown a lot, we for people for part-timers in the business.
Now, our programs have definitely expanded so we started off with the online, education in equine dentistry and actually thanks to covet that went absolutely gangbusters.We had planned.A online launch in the second week of March 2020.
Not, of course, not knowing not having the ability to know that covered with going to hit, so that went really well and the flow-on effect for that is I got asked to do some business coaching for some of the Vets who are going through the program.I would meet them for a one-on-one and help them with what equipment they should be using, help them to set their goals, help them with some pricing, and some marketing.
And there was one bit from the The u.s. email me back and said I did everything that you suggested and it's worked amazingly.Well, will you coach me?And I went oh my God, I don't have time to do individuals, but I can put a group together.So we started a group and now we're up to a fifth Group, which is pretty cool.
And pretty amazing.What else?We've just released last year.General education General ce4.Equine practitioners or mixed practitioners.That sea horses, we have a new Secret Squirrel, super secret program.
We're doing a joint venture with an overseas vet.We can tell you about that.Right now, it's under wraps.It's very secret.Whoo.Still, it's still the host related, they will, they're all horse-related because that's my area of expertise, but we're ending virtual internships for equine Dentistry to pretty cool.
Wow.So the duty went had a practice Decided to specialize.Got really good at one thing and horse teeth with the guy.I like fixing horse teeth, but let me help other people get better at fixing holes teeth and then they said, oh yeah, now we can fix those teeth but our businesses are still shared and you went.
Well, I know a few things about business.Maybe give me some sideline advice on how to actually make a living from fixing horse teeth and horses and started coaching that and they were And all this is the important step.Yeah.And it's not only about making a living but being happy and having profitable and effective practices and, you know, all the good things that we actually want.
I think about this week, I'm creating a community for the vet V, listeners and subscribers and the clinical stuff like an online community, and try to Great the words for the landing page and what it's about and, you know, the why we're doing it.
And there's so many words that we try and Bandy about, what are we aiming for without careers with our lives, with our lives, as vets, and I always get stuck drift call this the non-clinical vet felt the virtual drive or Flourishes.Another whereas try to think of a good word and then I just went, I just want to be happy.
I want to be a veterinarian do work that I like and beyond that and be good at it.I want to be good at it because it's me personally that contributes to happiness.But overall the word and it's such a slippery term that people actually don't like saying happiness.Because it means so many different things for different people.
I just want to be happy as of it.I like the burnt Forest.That's a great one.Yeah.Did I am kind of stealing it for whatever previous guests.Everything was just a flourishing.
I think sometimes the Temptation is when you're talking about happiness, people will often go.Oh, it's just going to be a happy joy joy and everybody's going to stand around clapping and chanting which is not the case.Yeah, I know.I think that's why we don't use the word happy because it's such a broad term, but certainly to me, that's noted.
Happiness means, purpose means, Doing something worthwhile fulfillment want to get up in the morning and go.Yes, I'm excited for my day and not another day.I can't wait to get home and just have a beer, that's not everyday, that that's Survival.
So in the intervening years since 2019.And now you've obviously learned a hell of a lot.A lot of skills of marketing skills and teaching skills and business skills.Have you changed your mind about anything?Majorly is the levias way of thinking 20:23 different to Olivia 2019.
I don't know if I necessarily changed my mind on something but I'm an equine vet, my masterminds effect, wine Vats and over the last couple years of interviewed.So many people, they all come in with the same story.I can just it can be a different face there and I different sounding voice for that, all coming with the same story.
So I've just become more aware of how hard it is.For some people, how having a practice that has low profitability?They're overwhelmed.And little lonely that's not something we really hear.People talk about a whole lot loneliness in equine practice.
I'm sure it could be in other types of retina practices.Well, it's a really big thing especially if you're a solo that practice.So yeah.Just becoming aware of how many people are hurting at the moment.So, the story is I'm overworked, I'm overwhelmed underpaid, and I'm lonely.
Yeah, by far away, I love for recurring themes.And is that a neck won't practice on?Say unique, but do you think it's more prevalent that story for because of the nature of equine practice because you're on the road and running your own show.Or do you think you think it resonates with small is GP Clinic owners as well?
Well, I think not so much for small is because I guess my Niche is the small Salon micro equine practices.So the part-timers and they by Nature, sure, they tend to be a lot smaller with staff, so that it might be a solo vet or a solo vet with maybe one nurse or one Tech and maybe part-time office manager.
It's not a big group, and sometimes it's just them by themselves and that can be really hard to just go throughout your day and talk only to clients and not have that kind of community around you.Yeah.So we wanted to this topic for this conversation is going to be focusing on the underpaid part of it, but I have to ask the in that equation of that story, The Humble, only Story, how do you fix that?
How it?Well, how do you address it?How do you start?What's your advice for people going doing this thing?I see people every day, but I'm really the only doing what I'm doing.Well I guess that's one of the problems.The Mastermind souls for them is it brings together a community of people who are in the same boat and I think Community is what a lot of people are missing these days.
They it's just too easy to get up and go to work every day and do your job, and come home and sit.And I sit on the couch and have a beer, like you said, but where's the tribe?Where is their Community?Where the people that they lean on and can go to for support and advice?And I think a lot of people Especially with since covid, where we were very isolated and we had to stay at home and we couldn't go to work and we were kind of removed from our own Community.
I think that's really badly affected a lot of people.So if it's not something that I do, for example, in the masterminds, they're not really encourage people to go out and find their community, so it doesn't have to be a Veterinary Community.You could join a crochet Club, you could, you know, go and law to learn how to do long balls.
It doesn't matter what it is, but people need People at the end of that even introverts make people.And we forget that and I know this, but life gets busy and you've got other priorities.I listen to a very interesting discussion the other day.I'll put a link in the show notes.
I can't remember, but comes back to the word, Happiness, and happiness, scientists research consistently.The studies show that this is, as you get older, especially the thing that is going to contribute.Mostly to happiness. / well-being.
What?However, as you get on in life is going to be your primary relationships.So your significant, other husband, wife, partner, whatever, and Friends.Good, friends close friends and interestingly not your kids because that's where I make a mistake and I think a lot of people you focus so much on kids.
That's the bulk of your life is circles around kids.But what the guy says, is your kids are going to be here with you till they 17 18 20, maybe when then they're gone, they love you but you're not the center of their Well, then you go and then you're going to go rush.It, I'm really loaded my best buddies.
I've left the home and they don't give a shit about me.It's not they do not give a shit but they've got their own lives and then they discussion focused.On obviously relationships focusing on your primary relationship.If you have one but then friendships and going is as an adult friendship is work.
You have to commit the time and the effort to creating relationships with other adults with shared interest in things like that.And I like the way that the guy talked about it, he says it it's not easy anymore as an adult, as a kid, you're in school and you're unnecessarily, you hang out with other kids and friendships just happened.
It's just, it's an easy skill for a kid to make new friends.You'd lose that skill as an adult, you have to schedule almost and say, yeah, I need to hang up with the friend once a week pick somebody and might be a bit awkward initially because I'm not used to just hanging out with other adults anymore, okay?
But you have to pay attention to it.You can't just expect everybody to Me to come to you.Yeah, you're very, very sidetracked for money.But I think it's important and it's let's get back into the joy of the podcast over layout to.
So let's get back to business and charging we want to talk specifically about charging correctly charging confidently.How did you get good at it?Like did you it's not something where you guys were told to, do you need how to run a successful business, how to price your services?
So was it a slow process or did you have a point in your career, where you're running your business where you went?She's the sister.I need to change because it's not ticking the boxes for me.It was actually kind of both.I remember plenty of times sitting there going, okay, who's going to draw the Short Straw or am I going to pay my staff and my going to pay my suppliers?
Or am I going to pay my cell?Self.And I can only do two out of three and consistently, I would lose out and I'm not the smartest person.I didn't learn the first time around, but when that started happening again and again I'm like, okay this is a problem we're really only just scraping by and I'm not satisfied with that.
I mentioned last time I joined the Tony Robbins Platinum program and the area of expertise that that kind of organization has is in personal development and relationship and business.And one of the pivotal moments for me came when I was in a business Workshop I guess or seminar in Sydney and sitting amongst all the Platinum Partners because it's pretty expensive to join.
And I had to definitely scrape, you know, beg borrow and steal to make the monthly payments.I couldn't afford to pay for it outright and there was all these people sitting in the room.I thought when looking at them was like, these guys have made it their successful, they've made it in life there.
In business and there was so many different types of businesses.There, there was TV stations Cafe owners, one of the guys owns a tire shop in the u.s. so, you know, very, very different.And I thought to myself, I'm not special.I don't have it any harder than anybody else, if they can do it, I can do it.
And what I got from that program was first of all the confidence to do it because Learning Without confidence is is nothing.You can know how to do something, but unless you actually implement it and follow true, Oh then it's just you know it's like the Shelf help just because you buy the book doesn't mean that you're going to understand and actually Implement what you're learning.
If I Implement everything I read I'd be at superhuman at the amazing.It's called it's called shelf help I'd like to self-help books are still unsure but yeah but that's that's where I learned about it because we see setting there's a cup of mint.
I will probably talk about that later but there's a couple of different ways will couple of different strategies to actually work out what you should be charging and summer.Other than others and some are more suitable than others for your individual situation, okay?So, it wasn't just a question of trial and error and experimenting and eventually you got that you invested in active.
Well, it was trial and error in the beginning, which is why failed?So dismally.But once she put a strategy in place and you know, had kind of steps to follow, it was much easier.And then, how did life change for you?Once you started getting that in place in broader terms?
Just in terms of your we talked about earlier, you'll feel flourishing.Yeah, it was totally a game changer.It took the stress off about, am I going to be able to make payroll this week?And when it's not all about getting rich and making a lot of money.
It's about, you know as you say it's about being happy in your in your life, you know, that's work and Personal as well.So I think just having higher disposable income or earning more money in your practice, it just gives you better choices.
So, you can, you know, if you're looking at equipment, you can maybe afford to go through the better equipment rather than a cheaper one, or you might be able to afford to buy new rather than used.And you can you have the funds to be able to grow your practice.So many things that change it just I guess the word, the the feeling that comes to mind when you when you asked me that question, Is that I could just relax a little bit it didn't have to be so stressful.
Yeah, peace of mind.So how many people have you coached through this process?Olivia and in the last couple of years, the business coaching so five groups, what does that translate to in terms of number of should actually have to go through and count it count it.I think it's somewhere in the first, you group first, you group, sorry.
It would be probably around, 40, 40, people.And I only ever intended it to be a 12-month program, but but they didn't want to leave.So so it's kind of evolved and morphed into we often as we offer a second new program as well.And that's that's a big different.
First Years all about systems and processes and confidence and mindset and then the second year is about strategic planning and implementation to get your practice to.We want to take it.Okay, if you got standout favorite case studies of somebody came to you in a bad place and then seeing them at the end of a course or a year or two years bringing a whole different story.
Gosh, how do you choose?I'm not sure how, how you choose about that one.A couple of the, I guess, really successful stories that come to mind.They have similarities that they, I mean, of course, they acquired practices, so the more likely to be in Rural areas and in lower socioeconomic areas.
There's one practice that they were able to leave their side gig and go full time and I are smashing it be a 55% profitability.Got lots of work have really good clients.There is another vet in the u.s.a.This one was a fun one, they were doing consults for free or sometimes they would charge a consult for your $25 and they covered a huge geographical area.
They're couple little kids at home was working all hours.Couldn't take away Edge, couldn't afford to go on holidays, that came in with the mindset that I've hit rock bottom.And there's the only place you can go from here is up.So I started working with her and 18 months later.There are three B practice.
They are killing it, and they're putting a lot of systems in place to be able to help and support their staff as well.So, on training, about money mindset and things like, And again, it's not just about the money, but having your systems and processes in place, like, do you have adequate insurance, I'm not talking about vets or where practices but for people in life, do you have your safety net set up in case something would go wrong?
So that's been pretty cool that they've been.It's kind of like the ripple effect.So I helped them and they help themselves but then they go out and help the people around them as well.And that pretty cool.But it's not always about the people that are getting really profit or some people come in to say, I want to downsize my practice and I want to be low on my stress and have a better work-life balance and you know, they're very successful.
They're not as exciting stories I guess as the other ones but they are very successful in their own, right?And that's the important thing because not everybody wants the same thing.They all want something different even though there might be similarity, so it's about work.Working towards what they want and having a plan in place and getting some milestones and some markers and things like that.
Just so they can keep making progress.Sorry, the way the story is told of that the free concerts what was listen, one, yeah, you should judge consulting fee of the way she too.Was that?That's the first lesson, Session, 1 done.
Let's let's meet again in six months time, but that's actually what I, what I do when we make for an interview.Because that could be the right sort of person to come.And you can't have people with big egos or or anything like that and we actually go through and I set some prices for them and give them the confidence to implement it because sometimes people just need to know that it's okay to do it like to have permission.
So I say to them if you need permission to do it, tell them Olivia said you can so they kind of transferring the blame will the responsibility a little bit. before we dive into the details and I have many questions already but it is a chance that this might sound like.
Okay, this is going to be an episode for business owners for small business owners to set pricing at that.Does it go beyond that?There's a go to the employed veterinarian in small is all acquired, are we going to talk about the mindset as well?Because it is, even though it's not our practice, we still have to charge and I don't have no debate business at the moment, but I still have to think about pricing and and I think for a lot of employed rates, they will look at the prices.
That they are building out to clients and go.Oh, that's I'm uncomfortable with that or distillate.Emotion attached with pricing, even if it's not your practice.So is this going to be worth listening to?I think so.It's about valuing yourself and valuing your services if you have a think about how many years it took you to complete the vet degree.
All the years of experience, how many hundreds of thousands of dollars of education is in your head right now.So if you actually had to put a dollar figure on it, That amount is freaking huge and then there's the the other side, which is the business item.And businesses have to make money, otherwise they become a not-for-profit and that's a totally different set of rules there, but they have to be able to turn a profit so they can afford to pay for everything.
The under can be rewarded for the risk and effort of setting up a practice and I think sometimes the Temptation is for associates is to think that there's this magic bank account that automatically just refill.As the day before, payroll is due and the magic money just magically appears in there.
And that's how they get paid.I don't think they have a take the time and it's not their fault.They just haven't been exposed to it but take the time to think.Okay well where does that money actually come from and how much does it cost to run a vet practice?So if any owners are out there that want to help their staff understand how expensive is to run the vet practice, you can do an exercise called and it's called a hundred pennies or this different variations depending on Where you are in the world, where you can sit down with 105, cent pieces here in Australia, 50-cent piece.
And so when there's a hundred of them each coin represents one percent of your revenue and you can get the staff to guess what it costs to run a bit practice.So, you know, maybe X percent goes to your drugs and consumables X percent goes to wages, etcetera, Etc.
And then once they've completed that and they kind of do it in a group exercise, that can be a little bit of fun.You actually tell them this Statistics in a percentage of your practice and you just watch the light bulb go off in their brains, like, you know, many people have no idea the costs involved in running a business.
Can we get the Glides to play this game with us as well when they ever wins about?What about?That would be an interesting one, wouldn't there?And the guide says, this is just a strange.All you care about the money?Okay.Come come through, its out stuff for whatever game we should play and an interesting statistic, the average profitability.
Even Antoine practice is somewhere between 5 and 10 percent up to 15% for an ambulatory practice, which I think is awful.That's an awful for said to put that in perspective to other businesses.Like, I know nothing about business other than vet business, what's a healthy profit, margin for a standard business.
I think it's so variable and depending, if you are a service based business or a good space business, but I just want to compare it to It is say, for example, the stock market for a lot of practice owners.They're better off putting their money in the stock market rather than buying a big breakfast.
Yeah, because often they are just renting a job, right?And it's not a job that you can leave.Because even if you do, leave, you still going to have ongoing costs.And if you're not bringing in any income how you going to pay for that?So it's a complete hamster wheel and it can be really difficult to get out of that.
Well, hey good.So let's unpack that.So I'm a youngster Pretend, I want to start a practice because I because I want to make a way to make money.I want some Independence and have a successful practice.I'm going to go and borrow a million bucks to start a practice by practice get equipment or whatever.
And you saying, if I am at a profit margin of sub 10 percent or whatever, I'm better off actually just boring, I mean rocks and investing it in the stock market and not killing myself working every day and do.Lee Min-ho respondents people are smarter than me that can run the figures for you.
That's not something that's within my ability, but that's the general gist of it.So we're renting a job.Wow.That's top right?Using it.It's a good way of looking at.It's a good kick up the ass to say well maybe I should get a little bit more about my profit margin is as in business.
Well for employed with listening to this as well.I've got a great story.I know magnificent recent grad V.Who works in a small practice and was there for a couple of months.And then started saying to the owners, I don't think we charge enough.
My friends are working other clinics and prices and she could see stress levels are high and the passes works all the time and and went through them.And said, I think we should charge this for this as from charges for this.I think it's thirdly and they did and if everybody's happier you can employ more staff who do whole thing.
So it's not just up to the practice itís to do this.It's zero, right?Allowed as an employee to start having a say in this.Because it's in the end, it's for your own good.If you want they want to ask for a pay raise.It's in your own interest that the businesses are successful business.Yep, if you want more support staff, you want some practice building excursions.
There's a local vet practice.I know of that tax everybody to the beach or go sailing.I mean, that would be pretty cool, but the money's got to come from somewhere.There's no magic bank account.Yeah.All right.So let's start with the stumbling blocks.What are the most common things you see in your Sighs.What are they mental blocks against charging decently?
What are they fears around changing.Yeah, it is.It's really fear-based.So the biggest problems that I see is that veterinarians are fearful that our clients will judge us for being greedy and they will no longer like us.
So I think I mentioned this in the first podcast but the two biggest fears of human beings as a whole is that they're not enough and if they're not enough though So they won't be loved.So that goes right to the heart of it.People judge me.People won't like me.
I'm not going to be enough and I won't be loved.So it's a very complex mechanism.That's absolutely right.Because again, we're caring profession, we made a promise that will take care of animals and that's what we want to do.And if there's a financial stumbling block, if I pricing is too high, then we won't be able to do what we do.
So feared that the clients will leave them.And if they're already a practice, that's maybe not doing very well and they lose clients.That's a very stressful situation or even even thought.So people will tend to try and maintain the status quo because at least in the position where they are, they have a reasonable amount of certainty.
But if they go and be brave and go and change some things that could go well, but it could go really badly.So I think, in general, it's easier to stay where you are than to change.And it does that fear, get reinforced every time that you do have a complaint because I feel like regardless what you charge, you gonna get some clients have a whinge about it.
That's preposterous a couple hundred percent cover charge of much use.That's exploitive.Don't you care about animals?I we've heard it all.Yeah, I mean, I've got to admit, I haven't mastered that gee.I can't help, but take it personally.And I think it's because I care so much about the patient and about the client.
And I'm I want them to be healthy healthy and happy.But what we have to remember is that it's not about us.So when clients are saying, oh wow, that's really expensive or I can't believe it costs that much.It's nothing to do with you.It's nothing to do with the prices.
It's more about them vocalizing.Their internal thoughts going?That's expensive for me for my situation and maybe I'm a bit fearful.So, this is from a client's perspective.I'm bit fearful about how I can afford that.Maybe they're a bit disappointed in themselves because I might not have the funds for it and we do had a bit of a culture.
I mean, definitely, I was stealing my kids where it's not my fault.It's not my fault.So they tend to just vocalize and blame somebody else for the problems that the client might have and you just happen to be an easy target because you're standing there.Yeah, I just, I must admit I do struggle with that and it happens so infrequently.
Actually, if you think about it you think about how many consults you see and how many things your book?How many people say yes or say no.But Satan the polite way and it's very infrequent that you get the complete asshole.The person has a really emotional response around money but it does stick it to that.
Fear said that it sticks to go.If I they're going to get angry at me and I want to be liked as you say.I like it when people like now.When I just I just want to help animals.I don't know.Have fights with people about money.Yeah, 100%.But you know, there are people that I that if you're not getting some complaints about your face and you're not charging after you don't you're going to be too cheap.
So I think there has to be a nice little balance there.Yeah, I think it's also you said earlier you're allowed to have permission.It's you have permission to care about money that Stinger, that they use that knife in the back of all you care about is the money.We hate that because it's so far from the truth because it's not all we care about but you do care about the money.
I do want to get paid for the work, I do.Actually think I've said it on air before have a conversation.That's not a red saying people should do this.I actually said that so glad because there's not my greatest moment but it was when I ran the emergency clinic it is 3:00 in the morning and some procedure, I was tired, it's been a long couple of weeks and she had a way into three in the morning about the cost and she Gave me the line.
All you care about the money and I've had enough and I said that's not accurate.So I do care about getting animal better but it's 3:00 in the morning.So three in the morning, I do care about the money is at she couldn't answer.She's with okay end of conversation but I'm not saying it's the right answer but it's maybe a good mind to say well yeah I do, it's okay, it's not, it's not sinful, it's not ethically wrong to care about the money.
That's right.I remember this is many years ago when I was just an associate and I had two kids in daycare, and I was standing in the supermarket working out.What groceries I was going to buy and I remember standing in the meat section going, I'm working full-time as a veterinarian.
I'm paying for two kids in daycare and I had to work out if I was having sausages on mince that week because I couldn't afford the steak.And I went, Something's Gotta change.This is not okay.I'm working my guts out here.So, I had to figure out how to be smarter rather than work harder.
I think the other fear that I've experienced and seen in practice owners.It's a, what will my clients say about my, about what we charge.There's also a little bit of water on my staff kind of say, because stuff will react, they used to X and they are from the ones on the front lines, copying the abuse.
How do you address it with the practice owner?How do you introduce Because there is the Temptation for staff.We talked about earlier that if they lack the understanding of the business to go up, prices are going up, brushes, getting rich.Yeah, I think it's ridiculous.What we charge?That's a two-part answer.
So the first part is, do you have the right people on the bus?The do you have the right sort of people in your environment because mindset can be difficult to change?And everybody comes into life with their own stories about money about relationships about Work ethic and all that sort of stuff.
And then second of all, I really think that that's for squarely, on the shoulders of the business owner of the practice manager.It's actually their job to educate the staff about all this.How much it cost to run the practice, why the seas are, what they are.And so doing something simple like that, hundred Penny exercises of, really great place to start the other fear is, what's the guy down the road judging?
So, I'm an acquired red.I've got a practice and there's the other one who works in the same area.I know they consult so that how can I possibly price myself higher for the same service.I exact it comes back to losing clients then how do you address that one?Because surely that's a, did you get that from your grades going?
Your coach claims?Not so much and I think that comes with confidence and as well because at the end of the day, knowing that the average rate practice has a profitability of 5 to 10 or up to 15%.If you do, what everybody else is doing, you're going to get the same results as everybody else.
And that's just a lifetime of misery to me.So, once you had the mindset about having some confidence and charging what you're worth, you tend to not care about what other people are charging.Yeah, that's great.So you think about it and go?Okay, well I'm not going to erase that guy to the bottom because I've been to the bottom or I don't want to get to the bottom.
I need to do, what I'm going to do for me and if that person wants to have a lifetime of suffering and choosing between sausages and Wentzville.That's the it's okay.Yeah.That's right.I mean and there's three different ways you can set your feasel strategies for fee-setting and probably the worst.
One is the bloke down the road method which is where you This is particularly, if you're talking about starting at the clinic, you get the price list for memory of, so don't take the Priceless, let me start with that but a memory of what the services were charged and you make that your charge.
Some people might go a little bit lower because I think it will attract more work and while it initially will you'll also get the shit-kicking d-class clients or go a little bit higher to make that a little bit better.But the bloke down the road method is probably the worst worst method you can apply when you're looking at setting of these.
Okay, so what are the better methods?You see, there's three.So that's number one, look down the road, bad plan.What are the better plans?The other two.So the first one is value-based pricing, and then the second one is a cost-based pricing.So the term I use for value-based pricing is what the market will bear.
So the figure when you're looking at your Individual Services and I tend to focus on Services rather than products but it's a going to be kind of a guesstimate.It's less scientific but that's based on the veterinarian's experience, skill and confidence to some degree.
It will depend on what the competition are charging.So even I said, I don't care what anybody else charges is still have to be within the ballpark unless you are like a pseudo ice and doing a lamest exam, compared to the new graduate who has been out of that school for a week and then a very small consideration.
Is the socio-economic and geographical location.It's really not as important as many people think so it's about, if you are very highly skilled in one area, you can charge more for that compared to someone who's not.Not skilled in that area.The second one is the cost based pricing and this is a lot more scientific this.
It's a very calculated approach.It involves sitting down and working out how much it actually costs you to provide that service so it can be time-based.So for procedures going to take you an hour, what does it cost for you to a?Keep the doors open for that hour?
And what are the consumables and energy that your procedure is actually taking.So this involves Everything from wages to cost of your vehicle cost of rent to Staffing costs, you know, which is more than just wages.It's super payroll tax.
If you're a big company benefits, your rates, your insurance, has an allowance for wear and tear.So there's, there's a lot to unpack in my experience bigger businesses and if you're a small animal practice is practice.You're more likely to do it cost base pricing majority of equine practices are Solo practices.
Where is your must less likely statistically to have a single vet, Small Animal Practice, it tends to be multiple people, they're more likely to pay attention to the business side of it, compared to a single equine, practice where they just want to go out and get the work done.So I think I think that's the different.
So most equine practices are going to be setting their fees on value-based and my gut feeling is it's my own practice.They do tend to be cost base, but there's a lot of the bloke down the road pricing.Yeah, it's hard to completely ignore that factor.
I want to dig into those two and a couple of sticking points.Let's start with coast-based.Well, hey, what do you teach they say, I'm, I'm new to your program.I have a struggling equine, practice, I need help with my pricing.How do I?Determine my pricing?
So far, I've just been looking at the black down, the road.Where do I start?Which, which method do you teach?We actually do the value-based pricing and the reason is is that you have to be fairly involved in your business, to know what your costs are.
And often when people are coming to me, it's kind of like a shit storm, like there's no procedures and systems, and processes in place, and coming in with that.All the baggage that they're bringing you.We don't necessarily want to start without it.You have to go and fix the urgent things, you have to put out the house fires before, you can dig into that sort of thing.
So we actually At value-based pricing.First time, I tell them what they should set that gives them some confidence.The cost based pricing comes a little bit later on.Maybe the value-based pricing is not working for them.So I'm not saying that one is actually better than the other.
They just suit very different models, even if you are implementing the value-based pricing, it is still a good idea to know what your costs are.So, you know, sometimes those fee setting, strategies can be intertwined and use both of them.Yeah.
Yeah.I feel like as a scientist mind, I kind of want to understand or these be able to justify to myself based on the costs.Well, I should at least be charging this to make sure I'm not going backwards.If you be a very small percentage of the population, that would think that.Oh, really.I say that.
But I do, but do I do it?No.I don't always do it.Yeah, most people go.Will I get pushed back if I charge this?And if the answer is no, then they charge it.If the answer is, yes, they don't charge it.So, when we look at Cost based pricing to at least get an idea, are they in Veterinary practice fairly big ticket items that people tend to discount, but it's easy like, forget about not even consider and their pricing because easy to go.
Well, these are my drugs.These are my materials, these are my wages.That's my rent.Other things that people just don't consider when they work out what your hourly rate should be.It's the overheads.It's the intangibles.It's not the things that you can touch.
It's not the drugs are getting off the shelf, or the he don't.I'm not advocating touching your employees.But, you know, there are physically there, whereas, your insurance, you can't touch your insurance.You can't touch your electricity.Well actually you could but don't because you'll die.Yeah.
Okay.So it's the stuff that goes out of the bank account every now and again and you don't actually see something on the shelf or walk through the door.That you Flex T, forget to count that.Anyway, and actually that brings me to another really good point because what I will commonly see is that business owners will judge the health of their practice based on the amount in their bank account at any one time.
So especially for equine practice owners.Many of them don't know how to read a profit and loss statement so they open up their the app on their phone and get oh I've got enough money in there today.I mean, you could be superb Profitable practice and they'll be occasions where you are, have very much money in the bank.
So it's not a very good way to judge the health of your business.That's 100.You get your head around because I definitely did that when I when I ran the emergency business, I'd look at the bank and ago, we're all good.Luckily, we had a record.Silly meeting with an accountant and then he would sort.
We had pretty quickly was like, oh yeah.You yeah, that much in the account, but you got 20 twice that much in tax at the end of this mother.Oh, what ocean?Yeah, yeah.Brightman Smith hiding in minutes.Different types of caches operating cash which is the result of your efforts in your business.
There's investing cash.So if you can't get a loan, maybe for some Capital expenses and then there's basically when you sell something.So if you've got a spare car that you sell the car or old ultrasound, you sell that I can't think of the term for it.That's a not very important that one when we talk about the value-based pricing and you said the term there.
What the market will bear?How much people willing to pay our Farwell every stretch and I've actually been a vid long enough and I've worked in many different places that my perception on that is Shifting drastically.Like if you told me 10 years ago, what, what people will be paying these days and it's weird.
It's kind of, like, post covid, people's expectations of what they're going to pay for stuff is just up and they clearly had very Twisted ideas of what people are able and willing to pay for Veterinary Services.Is there a line where it becomes a now we are?
Or is this what we're talking about?Now?We are pricing ourselves out of the market and we won't be able to offer the services that that I want to do.I'm not gonna be able to make animals better because people are going to start saying, no to what I'm doing and it becomes almost an ethical line.Is there an ethical line?We go?Yeah, people can pay it, but is it reasonable?
I think a lot of I said, no, I struggle with, yes, that's what that's very true.If you turning half million dollars for consultation Zero people maybe that one random person in the whole entire world.So there's definitely a line there and of course, with everything with doing our practice and our all our strategies and pricing and everything we do, it has to be ethical or mean that maybe I should have said that in the beginning, but that's actually got to be first and foremost is that you have to be ethical in your practices because if you are not and you go in with this idea of that, I'm just going to make my prices as high as Possibly can people are going to see right through you with that one.
And perhaps that is the instance where people are saying, oh, you're just a money-hungry vet, maybe that's true.So it's a good idea to sit down actually ask yourself is this appropriate for the situation and my being ethical about it in saying, that one of the really common questions I get asked, is that if we put these two high, then the people who can least afford it will suffer, and their animals will suffer.
That's not necessarily true.There's always other Veterinary.Ends around.There's always going to be other vets that are charging more than you or charging less than you.One thing I'm a big advocate of is if you are increasing the profitability of your vet practice Pay, It Forward have an angel fund so you can go and work really hard on your business and be rewarded for it.
Set aside a percentage of what you're earning and putting in an angel fun.And that can then be the funds that you can use for hardship cases or specific cases and that will help.A lot of vets in actually taking the box or it can be if I am profitable, I know that I don't have to work as hard seeing as many clients and therefore I can block off this day every month or whatever.
The time frame is I'm can go and do some pro bono work for a charity.I mean that that's what I used to do is we used to just go and allocate and it one afternoon a month or every two weeks apart.Remember now, but we would basically just go and do pro bono work and you know, that was a great thing to do on a Friday afternoon.
You just you came back from that just being pumped with how many animals that you could care for and help without being worried that because you work for free you then couldn't pay stuff.Yeah.Yeah.Like that.Like, when you start advising people about prices, you said earlier, you don't worry too much or didn't look too much at stuff that you sell it product.
It's more service-based, where do you start?Let's say I'm listening to this, I am a practice owner with its equine or small is Way that I need to overall my prices.What do I do first?Because they sort of logical part, the default for me is to go, well, don't touch the stuff that people going to shop around for.
For example, so the guy down the road argument, again my consults work on stuff with my console, the kind of stuff with my space grunts done with this because people going to call around and then they're going to see all your expensive and they not use me.Does that argument hold water?Because then on the flip side, the console displays in the sort of things that's like, It's a large percentage of what you charge in the end.
So making a small lift, they could make a big overall effect.How do you think about that?Yeah, that's true.When I'm doing these interviews, I asked people to send me a list of their most that the ten most frequently performed services.So consultations are always in this mix so we don't stay horses as a routine things.
I can't come on a Mac but the principle is the same so I get them to send me the ten most commonly performed procedures and The number of those procedures, they've performed in the last year and I've got this little spreadsheet and I'm actually really proud of myself because this is something that I created and I go through, I learn a lot about their business and then can kind of get a feeling about where we should aim for within a price range.
And I show them and I say, okay if we go and increase this price by 10% and I don't want you to work any harder because you're already exhausted and you already don't spend enough time with your kids.Yes.But what is the effect of increasing price of 10% on a procedure that you do 40 times a year and I fill in the spreadsheet and it calculates, the additional Revenue that that will create each year.
And then, of course, you can work out the additional profit.And by the time you get to the end of that, for majority of the people, I do this with your adding between 50 to 150 thousand to their profit every year and this is not price.
Charging.This is not being unethical.This is about charging appropriately for what you're worth, but still the value-based pricing on what I think their Market can bear from the information that they're giving me.That's a game changer for these guys.When they look at that, bottom figure and go, you're telling me I could have an extra hundred thousand dollars in my pocket, as a result of sitting down doing something on the computer because businesses and intellectual sport.
It's not about working harder.When we all want to improve, Prove our skills, but I never tell people, they need to work harder because that's just crazy and you just kind of see them, sit there and go.Wow, maybe I can send my kids to that private school.Maybe we can take my parents on holidays, you kind of see them taking over their mind about what it means for their family and their life.
And that's pretty special.And I think once you anchor fee, setting and that and the mindset around that, if you can anchor that to something that it is benefit for them, for what they really want.It just becomes a situation where they can't lose because they've got a driving force.They know they're why about what they want to improve their practice and it becomes a lot easier to implement and they do it once and they get some confidence and quite often.
I don't need to tell them to raise prices.Again, they will go.You know what I did?It, it wasn't that hard.I got zero pushed back or maybe one or two, but really nothing like I expected.So just gives them the confidence to be able to make some decisions in their, in their business.
And Doing that over their career.So, that's something really special.It's a, it's a lovely thing to do.I like that dying it to something that's a value to you.Because I think a lot of us, if you ask me, I'm a money-driven.I'm not money-driven, but what are the things I value?
You know, is exactly as you say, it's a nice family holiday or even if you want to be charitable.Several donating money to something I care about or at tying it to that and saying by doing X You can't achieve that in here, one or two, and this thing, and it's not about the fancy car or anything like that, or you can even make it business-wise by changing your injection fee from $12 to $15.
That's going to give you an additional forty thousand dollars a year based on last year's data, and that's an extra receptionist or nurse or something, which is going to take the strain of your current events at tying it to an outcome.Like, that is a much better way to just go, where you going to make more money.Because then that feeling of well, I am just a greedy money-grubbing I stood at does sneak in if you that way for predisposed, that's a bit about finding your why and actually sitting down and making a plan about what you want, what you want your practice to look like and starting at the beginning and having a plan to go through to the end it kind of all just integrates.
Yeah, well, it's easy to be slack about these things.I felt I felt when I do business.You kind of know I should but I'm busy.I should change my prices but I'll do it next week.But first, I've got it.Just do all this work or something like that.It actually did, you know, this, so many things that we're told we should do.
We should get 8 hours sleep, we should drink.How many glasses of water?We should exercise.We should, we should look at our prices, we should do personal development, we should eat all the rainbows.I mean, there's just so many things that we're supposed to be doing.It gets overwhelming, and when things get overwhelming, it's just easier to do nothing.
Yeah.So what's the solution?It's knowing what we want.It's taking the time to sit down and go.Okay, what do I want from my life?What do I want from my practice?And how is my practice going to support me with?What I want in my life.Not many people actually have a plan for that.
Listening citizens, might spend five minutes.What do you want?What do you want from your practice?What do you want from your life?Most people won't do it.Is it what I'm trying to look for a word shelf Improvement for podcasting.
There's got to be something I get for a party Five, Guys that you listen to that, you go oh that's cool at me and I never do anything about it.Yeah yeah and I think it's be good because it gets overwhelming.There's so many things that we're supposed to be doing Are we missing out on anything?He'll love it.
Have we covered the pleasure.I found that really useful.I guess maybe that the take home is that have some confidence in yourself.Value yourself with your skills and knowledge and expertise, in the risk associated with starting a practice, and just give it a go.
It doesn't have to be perfect particularly with fee-setting if I have vets were really nervous about this again, if they need it.And I asked them if they need it, I say, I give you permission to drop your price is right back down.
If it doesn't work, drop them right back down.I've had zero people do that, right?So nobody's going.Oh, shit.That was a disaster.Prices are coming down.Again, it's a little bit of courage and little bit of confidence.One of the things I used to do in my equine practice is that we all have shit days, right?
It's either super horrible, super cold or a cranky client or patient died or whatever it is.If I'd had a particularly shitty day, I would go home and I would just be like go in and change through prices and it made me feel a little bit better and I maybe that's just that's just my psychology but you know maybe it's like you got kicked during a rectal exam.
Am I would go home and I'm saying, I am worth so much more than that.I'm just changing the prices and when you bring that energy and the mindset into it, it's just so much easier to do.I really like that when you have those, when I swear try, this wheel is on the products with there's fuck this shit moments just to go.
I'm just going to charge more, all right, I should we wrap up with getting a little bit more personal again what Have you listened to On podcasts in the last couple of months or so that stood out for you that, that you want to share her mom, not really a podcast listener.
All I listen to yours, can I give a plug to the vet V 1?Yes, I love those ones are very pristine but I tend to be more a book reader and you're going to laugh at this one.So we're just come back from a big trip overseas.
A lot of it was work but it was awesome.Family holiday as well.And we had this little Airbnb and I've converted it monastery near Loch Ness, in Scotland, very cool place and they had a James Herriot book on the shelf and that's what I've been reading lately.
So I think I read it when I was maybe 11 or 12 and and I'm sure back in the depths of my psyche.That's one of the things that made me decide.I wanted to be a vet but it's been really nice.Just revisiting the stories and actually being in the UK at the time in similar.
Countryside to the setting of the book.There's just been really nice.So, if you got insights into the books or seeing it in a different way, now, to what you would have had as the pre-vet young Olivia, reading this book because I haven't I read them as a kid as well, but I've never actually Revisited them as if that's all the things that we're fearful of, as adult, veterinarians in this year are the same things that they were fearful of.
Of way back.Then they were facing the same struggles with the elements, and the weather, and the business and staff and cranky clients.And, you know, all of that.Sort of been, there's a story in there where they went out to see a sick cow and the owner spent the whole time telling them that their boss would do a better job than they would or the previous vet would do a better job or they would get their neighbors over to chime in about what was wrong with the count of like, you know, that still happens today.
Nothing's changed in that respect.Yeah.We quick to complain about how bad things are these days.But actually, actually, in many ways a lot better, I think there's never been a better time to be a vet right now, I've honestly, the tide has definitely changed.The is a big shift.
The wages are rising.We are no longer competing for clients.We're competing for staff as well.And I think, in general, Vets are much better now, especially in the last.I think maybe 18 months is that because they've had to pay higher wages.
They've had to increase their prices, then less likely to put up with shit.So the quicker to fire clients, the quicker to have some boundaries in place to say this is acceptable and this is not acceptable and everything.That's not acceptable.We don't want that in their life and they put some strategies in their place to remove that from their environment, I think overall it's only going to make people happier.
Nice positive into it.Okay, the one question, the one message to all of the virtually new grads of the world.Can you remember what you said last time?I can't do you remember I could lie and say I remembered never.I listen back, I went by always a lizard back to your previous answer so I won't tell you yet.
One message to all the new grads, the world about David careers or lives around it.What would 2023 Olivia's day?I would say find something that you love, you know, it had the saying, love what you're doing, you'll never work a day in your life.
I don't know if that's necessarily hundred that true, but I remember as a new grad brand-new new grad and my boss would go away.I would be terrified that I would have to Ultrasound attending because I didn't have know how to use the machine that I would have to extracted tooth from a horse not knowing that that's not even a realistic expectation.
But here I am all these years later doing Pretty much exclusively head and dental and oral surgeries because I just found that I loved it and it didn't become so much like work.The second thing I would say is it's your responsibility to educate yourself, there's no excuse for ignorance.
So it's okay if you've never been taught that, but if interest you go and find someone to teach you go and find some education, there's You don't have to spend any money.You can go online and research you, so you can read books, you can join masterminds, you can do programs, there are so many different ways to get education these days.
So if that's what you're after, then pick up the phone, go on the website and do something about it.It's your responsibility.Now, I'm curious to know what I said.Yeah, it's not.It's not that far.Different slightly?Different spend you said.Do what?You love last time.You said get really good at something.
You told a story about when you were A new grad and you, you were getting bored about doing the same sort of cases and ask the boss or is it, this is not something else I can do in your boss said, no, it actually really helps doing the same thing over and over until you really good at it, because that builds confidence in that thing.
Which then spills over into generalized, confidence into other fields, it kind of ties in.Yeah.Do you started not to know that I still agree with that?Yeah, I completely changed your mind on your wisdom gold.I love it.That was so good.
Again, think this will be a very valuable one for the people who do need it.Big changes that can come from it.Thank you so much again for the time.And thank you for the work.You do for helping people to flourish that.I've be happy.Very happy to answer any questions.
If people want to reach out or they're going to maybe a sticky problem, if I can help them I will not only, I feel that if I can help, I must yeah.Okay, well, where can we find?You I'll put links in the in the show description.But somebody's listening we can they find Olivia, I'm gosh couple ways.
So I've got two websites so the veterinary Dental company.If you just Google that and the equine practice company, I might send you the link for the Mastermind one.If this is resonating with anybody who may feel that they might like to have a chat to me to see if this could be a benefit for them and if they might be a good fit, I can send you a link to that.
We have the Facebook practical Pages as well and all that sort of thing.So I'm not hard to find beautiful.Okay, thank you sir.Much before we go before we buy, can I just congratulate you and the VIP bulge organization with how far you guys have come?
I mean, that's pretty amazing.You're up to 80 something episodes in the clinical staff as well.And then I know you just ran that Retreat up in the nursery Hinterlands that I was lucky enough to attend the last day of.That's, it's fabulous and you making a difference for so many people so often we're not told thank you.
You're doing a good job.So I just wanted to say to you, Thank you and you're doing a good job.I really appreciate that and it's High.Praise from somebody from you specifically.Thank you so much for the see how I lifted last, but in it, it's it's me up.
Nicely to plug up to Nickel podcast.You've just recorded a bunch of stuff at the Vic Spring Symposium with some of the most respected names in the world of emergency and critical care.Look up at that, emergency text book on your shelf of work.That Hopper of silver, Stephen Harper.
Yep.She was there.And all of that is coming to our clinical subscribers over the next few weeks, along with 360.Plus other episodes already on the plus, all of the show notes, which I have to brag about, these have become my number one reference at work as well as most of the other people I work with.
And I'm super excited to announce that we now have a new home for all of our show notes on a single website, that is searchable.Keyword searchable.So so any keyword will take you to any of the episodes at any of the show notes that we have available out now subscribers.
If you haven't seen it yet.Surprise, go and try it out for free, two weeks at VV, n dot super cars.com.Refresh your knowledge.Get up to date with what the cool kids are doing it practice.Get your confidence up and get your groove back as one subscriber puts it, we also offer practice subscriptions, so email us at info at with Walter come for more details on On them.

Dr Olivia James