March 8, 2023

#88: Okay vet, exceptional outcomes: fresh thoughts on leadership and motivation, with Dr Andrew Ciccolini.

#88: Okay vet, exceptional outcomes: fresh thoughts on leadership and motivation, with Dr Andrew Ciccolini.
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Season 1

Dr Andrew Ciccolini is a Medical Director at the National Mill Dog Rescue, a non-profit that rescues and rehomes discarded breeding dogs, and also the Director of Non-Profit Initiatives at Galaxy Vets. His background includes serving in the U.S. Army, where he worked his way up from Associate Veterinarian to VP of Operations. In addition to his veterinary degree, he also has a Master’s degree in Organizational Leadership.

In this conversation Andrew takes us on a wild ride through his career with detours into what it’s like to be a military vet, working with high-performance dogs, why choosing not-for-profit work works for him, why it might work for you, and how incorporating some of it in your business might work for your team. We draw on Andrew’s military experience and his leadership Master's to talk about leadership styles, finding the right ways to motivate a vet team beyond money (but also including money!), and Andrew tells us about his current work for the Galaxy Vets Foundation to support pet owners in Ukraine. 

Time markers: 

1. Bad decisions, good stories. 6:00

2. Life as an army vet in the US. 9:00

3. Working with high-performance dogs 12:15

4. What Andrew learnt in his time as a military vet. 14:46

5. Leadership lessons from the military. 16:00

6. Can you change your leadership style?  23:19

7. Motivating veterinary teams: beyond the $$$'s.  26:41

8. National Mill Dog Rescue. 31:40

9. Dealing with 'divided' teams. 33:30

10. Not-for-profit work. 35:54

11. Galaxy Vets Foundation and its work in Ukraine. 39:58

12. What we've learnt about Telemedicine from their work in Ukraine. 41:07

13. Rediscovering your passion through charity work. 43:24

14. Being okay with being okay. 49:10

15. The pass-along question. (Chihuahuas!)  53:00

16. Andrew's podcast choices.  56:20

17. The one question. 56:56

Join the mailing list to hear about new opportunities at Galaxy Vets here, or volunteer to provide telehealth services to the pets and pet owners of Ukraine here.

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Go to thevetvault.com for show notes and to check out our guests’ favourite books, podcasts and everything else we talk about in the show.

We love to hear from you. If you have a question for us or you’d like to give us some feedback please get in touch via email at info@thevetvault.com, or catch up with us on Instagram.

And if you like what you hear, please share the love by clicking on the share button wherever you’re listening and sending a link to someone who you think should hear this. 

 

 

I have a bit of an odd story, just that this episode with, so bear with me last week, I tasted the best fruit ever.It's not often that you get to eat something delicious for the first time in your life, especially once you hit your fourth decade, and this experience happened.
Right in my own backyard and not on some exotic holiday or something, let me explain.Someone told me recently that the fruit of the delicious monster plant is not just edible, but totally amazing.So that's that plant that we learned about it.Vet school, with the big leaves with the big holes in it.
That makes stupid puppies salivate like crazy and scratch their mouths and gag when they try to eat it.I think it's oxalates or something in the plant that causes that.Horrible mouth, stinging sensation.But if you look at the heart of this plan, you'll find at times a fruit or maybe it's an inflorescence that look, It's bit like, it would make a slight buzzing sound.
If it had an on switch, Google it.You'll see what I mean and this thing will ripen over a period of months and months like almost a year to the point where to start shading.These little league, Sergeant old, green scales to reveal underneath it, a layer of soft white fruit.
That tastes something like a mix between banana and strawberry and Heaven, seriously.It's Exquisite, but here's the catch as little scales, shade gradually from the So the fruit towards the tip, which is about 30 centimeters away at a rate of around, 1, cm every day or two, and it's only once the scales come loose, that the bit of fruit underneath, it is fully ripe, while the bit that hides towards the tip under the fixed.
Scales are not ripe and when I say not drive, I don't mean just a bit tart or the fruit is too hard or something?No no no no here's what happens.You smell that glorious smell.You eat the centimeter of exposed fruit.It's delicious.
So you want more that you use your fingernail to flick off for another centimeter of scales expecting, more heaven, and then then you look like one of those stupid puppies, see the unripe fruit contains those same oxalates, whatever it is.And it's only when the fruit is ready, like totally ready that they disappear eat it before, and you're left with a stinging numbness, burning sensation in your lips and your tongue in the back of your throat.
The last Or ours personal experience talking here.You will totally get why it's called a delicious monster.So what does this have to do with this podcast and our guests and your vet Korea?Well, one of my favorite things about the stories we get to hear and share on here is how our guest set off on one trajectory.
And then often end up way of track in a place that they could never have imagined a decade or even five years before.Dr. Andrew chicolini Our Guest for this one is a case.In point High performer aspirations to become, a top level clinical vet, detour into the army new skills, different interests, new opportunities.
It's that slow reveal and it's Life School, fit degree career, maybe a business, maybe specialization maybe something completely different.Maybe personal circumstances that interfere hardships, in Andrews case, a war.And if you look too far ahead, if you try to eat the whole thing in one go, you can't get it down.
But one centimeter at a time when the time is, right?It's a delicious monster.So who is dr.Andrew chicolini.Andrew is a medical director at the national Mill.Dog, rescue a large nonprofit located in Payton Colorado that you'll hear more about in this discussion.
And the director of not-for-profit initiatives at Galaxy vets, his background includes serving in the US Army where he worked his way up from associate with to VP of operations.In addition, to his vet degree, it also has a master's degree in organizational leadership.
In this conversation, Andrew takes us on a wild ride through his career, with detours into.What it's like to be a military vet working with high-performance dogs.Why choosing not-for-profit work works for him, why it might work for you and how incorporating some of it into your business, might work for your team, we draw an Android military experience and his leadership Masters to talk about leadership styles, how to find the balance between extrinsic and intrinsic rewards to motivate a vet team.
And, of course, Andrew tells us about his current work for the gallery.Activates Foundation supporting the pet owners in Ukraine with free Telehealth Services.Now, if after you've listened to this, especially the bit about the Telehealth support to Ukrainian paid owners, and you feel inspired to put your hand up to volunteer your skills and time, I'll put the necessary links in the show description right here, as well as in the show notes, or you can just Google Galaxy B Foundation.
Also, on the topic of galaxies vets back in episode 42, we had dr.Ivan Zach on here as a guest.Talk about is burnout research.Since then Ivan has been putting all of that knowledge into practice by starting a group of eight practices that has burnout prevention built into its DNA.
I've had some really cool off a conversations with him about it and Ivan is putting some big Ideas into action that I really think could change the profession for the better.So for our us listeners and any Never Lie holders were considering a stint in the US.If you're curious to find out what Ivan's up to, what the hype is about, And if you wondering what it would be, like to be part of an employee-owned Faith group sign up at Galaxy, which that come to be notified about any new job opportunities, okay?
That's my rant.Let's dive in with dr.Andrew chicolini.Welcome to the red bulb.Thanks for having me.
I'm excited to talk to you and Gerardo and about oh hey guys.A team.I'm glad it's not a video podcast.You should see the Riders hey, kind of jealous of it and I'm gonna lie.Well actually, there is there's a kind of an average here.It's like one, complete spectrum and then someone with good habits combed and my Windswept head, we'll call it.
Look at our guests with no hair at all.We have a hair product, you know, sponsoring this podcast or anything?That's right.Andrew, let's kick off officially with our first question.Bad decisions.Lead to good stories.
Do you does that resonate at all?And if so, do you have any stories that would fit that mold?Yeah, I've certainly made plenty of bad choices decisions in life but one that comes to mind is when I was active duty army, they Dangled a, you know, sign on for four more years and twenty thousand dollar bonus.
So, five thousand dollars a year which at the time was, you know, a lot of money to me.But when you look at the bonuses today, it's like pennies compared to what you can get and I was thinking like Oh I'm a lifer, I'm staying Army for 20 years, this is what I want to do, I love it in the second, I did that.It's like things changed in you know, just started being treated differently and all of a sudden they had me hooked and they didn't have to be nice to me.
And I was just stuck, you know?And it's not like A bonus, you sign at a private practice where you can hire a lawyer and get out of it with the Army.It's like you're going to jail.If you try to get out of this.Like your only option is to flee to Mexico, Canada.Like yeah you might if I went like super far north got into the Wilderness Area maybe they just couldn't find me.
Oh gosh I go we've got a sophistical explore this as a potential strategy for employers because of the vet shortage.Is there any way that companies can get this instituted?Where you go to prison if you quit I think if they Could they would but positive consequence was that led to a few years later, I decided maybe a career on active duty, Army wasn't the right route and I'm glad I left.
And I've really enjoyed the different opportunities I've had since leaving, which I know, we kind of mentioned a few of them already and I'm sure we'll talk about them more.So the long-term outcome was good.Short-term pain to be transition from of the me to vet science.
I take it.No.That was a veterinarian in the Army.Oh, wow.Cool.Share about that recap the journey.So was it vet school?And then went from qualifying straight into the army or studied during the army or how?What did the journey look like?Yeah, so upon graduation, I went right into active duty, so I served in the Army for almost nine years in moved to a number of different locations.
Multiple deployments Iraq, Afghanistan, places, in Africa, Korea in decided to leave and still in the I'll guard.So I do it part-time.So I still do the part-time gig to kind of finish out my retirement and I do enjoy that but been working in this building sector over.
Since you destroyed your, I meant of the Vets who are involved in the stranding Hobby, and I think there's a grand total of be in there part-time, but in the state's, it's big, isn't it?Yes.For active duty Army.Those 500 veterinarians in about 1000 to 1200 support staff with them.
And I'm actually not sure how many are in the reserves like part-time gig.Twice as much.Wow.So when you say you were active duty, was that as a veterinarian working on Military animals or what active duty look like?Yes, we had a whole host of different responsibilities military, working dogs, being the most fun, one working with what is essentially a high-performance athlete in a canine version and just the capability they provide to the force.
I mean it was just awesome to work with them and try to help keep them healthy and working and then we did have some Additional responsibilities with food safety.And that's kind of a historical thing for veterinarians fact long, long time ago, doing Meat Inspection for the military to try to prevent what we call disease non Bell injury or basically food poisoning or different illnesses associated with food, so we still have that as well and sometimes you just never know what your job is going to be in the Army, different things, pop up, and you just take in stride and do the best you can.
So so you think the change of mind?Food safety.Like do you guys eat the food first?And then, if the veterinarian comes down, it doesn't then go out to the actual troops of a cook.I mean, we joke about it but so the are you guys familiar with MREs or meals?
Ready.And so it's like the package military meal and that's one of our main responsibilities is when those expire.The vet team has to go.Do an inspection to either extend them or condemn them.And part of that inspection is the food inspectors, open them up and they smell them and they have to taste different portions of the MREs.
Hopefully, so if there's a bad smell, they know not to taste it.They can just stop there, but you never know.And that's of course something that we do invade school, right?Is how to assist food safety after its expiry date.Yet by sniffing do the sniff test?
I like I got this horrible food poisoning story is like I'm the kind of person who's that you sniffs and it was just, I was really hanging for a ham and cheese sandwich, and then I got back from work, and there was cheese.In those bread, but the ham that was there was like old.
So I sniffed it and I was like, I rinsed it and I was like, I'll just rinse all this bugs off and that I've made by Hammer cheese toastie and then the most horrific vomiting gastro ever had.I don't know if ever learnt a lesson from that because I still do that but it was that was bad.
The sniff test is not very sensitive.Well like I said before you want to stop at the sniff test if it doesn't smell good.At least if it doesn't smell good, that should probably be that.Maybe not.Yeah, but I'm fascinated with the working with the military dogs and review say they were great to work with.
So we talking German Shepherds and Malinois and those sort of breeds as it.This the stereotypical thing that I imagined to be a military dog.Yeah, that's the most common breeds.Mostly Belgian Malinois has now, they've kind of transitioned away from German Shepherds.
You still see.Um, but just too many health problems, occasional Dutch Shepherds.Surprisingly, a lot of Labrador, retrievers as well, just make really good.Explosive detection, dogs.And then sometimes you see some other breeds, like, I've seen some springer spaniels that are really good vehicle.
Search dogs are kind of compact size.You can put them in a vehicle to search it.We sorry what?One of my favorite marijuana toxicity cases working as in the Ovid is one night.The Springer Spaniel came in Clearly a third of its face and the other was a young guy and he told us he came in, he didn't know what was wrong with it and I said, look, he looks like he's starting to see any chance he could have had access to marijuana.
This is I don't smoke.And he's visited a friend today, who lives on a farm.And I think he smokes and he goes, and the dog is a retired drug-sniffing dog.So it obviously just wait straight with you.Exactly where to find it.Sniffed it already, this time, I'm going to eat it.They finally get to eat this thing of Nola did.
Ideally the detection dogs, don't eat.I think they're trying to detect.So the the melodrama are they cool to work with color that highly trained that you can do stuff with them or do you deal with aggression issues in that with them at all?Yeah, there are certainly a little bit crazy.
So working with the handlers on enrichment, can be really important because the handlers can only work them and train them.So many hours a day.They have other responsibilities, but as we all know, Malin was have crazy high.Energy and drive levels so they can develop a lot of Behavioral issues that they're just spending too much time in the kennel the vast majority of them through, okay?
To for us to examine them you know we have protocols where the Handler stays with them.Their muzzled at all times you do get an occasional one where it's like you just cannot like examine this dog and you have to find ways, you know, whether that's just drugged them every time or sometimes we just like at a private practice.
The dogs will associate the vet clinic with Of experiences.And so we'd have to like meet them in a random location to try to try to do an examination.So just coming up with novel ideas to try to make it work, okay?So you spend 90, sorry in the armed forces in as a bit - injury in the battery capacity.
What were you key?Takeaways you?What we key?Takeaways that you took that help you.Now with, you know, your Devas, your coaching mentoring the like business.What was something you took away from that kind of institution, or Structure.I think from a clinical standpoint, it's a lot.
What I just talked about and just adapting your approach to dogs that are really stressed in the clinic and just being flexible to try to meet the dog where they are just to try to make it a less stressful experience for them beyond that.I really learned a lot of leadership skills in the Army in the Army is not necessarily great about teaching you how to be a good leader, but they give you a lots of opportunities to practice it.
So you kind of learn by doing and sometimes you have good leaders and mentors that you can learn from and you can learn just as much from the bad leaders as well.So I learned a lot about leadership and really enjoy that aspect of the job and that's why I chose to do a masters in organizational leadership after I less left the military.
So I was like, okay I have all this experience.I have ideas on what has worked for me leadership and what hasn't but what's the foundational knowledge behind it?Like what's the theory?And I feel like that really helped me grow as a leader and I just Enjoy that.I'm always fascinated with leadership in the military because in my head.
So South Africa's got a very strong military history.We actually had conscription and I just missed it the change just before I had to join but my three of my brothers did it and Sydney my perception at that stage was that it was very much a command and listen either substructure.
There was no I didn't have to get your buy-in as a leader or get you outside of.Just I tell you to do this all day.As you said earlier, or you go to prison.Oh, I get to chase, you around the parade ground all day until you vomit sort of a thing which I often think.Hey, is that accurate?
Is that how it is?Or is it changed drastically in the military?No longer like that.I think that's a very common perception of the military is it's all an authority authoritarian leadership style.You certainly do have some aspects of that in situations where it's required.So if you're an In the Heat of combat like you just have to kind of follow orders and take direction, right?
Like That's not the time to have a discussion but what I saw is that those that tried to have an authoritarian leadership style at all times, they failed because people just don't follow well.When they're just being told what to do all the time especially when there's multiple officers around people that have Doctorate Degrees.
Like they don't just want to be a follower.They want to contribute, that's actually not, at least the US military's stance on leadership either.It's not always.Whoever has the highest ranking Person makes all decisions and everybody else follows, and that's why we've been really successful in combat situations because we push leadership down to the lowest level in looking at how Russia is currently failing in the war in Ukraine, one of the big things they keep bringing up is that their people on the ground are not allowed to make decisions, they're sitting there waiting for command to come down from higher and that's causing just chaos for them.
And that's why Ukraine is being successful in that war.Hmm.In that consistently come up because one of the things I do for love is the Ukraine war actually.And I've heard that consistently come up in a lot of the reports around the differences between because the Ukraine Army was trained for the last several years by American trainers and things and that flexibility and ability to for initiative and take advantage of situations because they do have the inside.
It's kind of at the same in business, really.It's kind of at least through my leadership Journey originally was like tell and do.Do I tell you do?And then that work just to some degree, but engagement, dropped significantly, and then it's really bringing the decision-making down to wouldn't hate say the floor, but down to the team and within the team that are actually doing the thing to help them Empower them to make decisions and give them the resources, which is difficult transition for big organizations to make.
But so with your leadership and Masters, and the, and organizational leadership, What would be the challenges that you come and they come across in the veterinary space field practice structure?I think, especially as I've gotten more into the corporate world and I saw the same thing on the Army side is that leadership styles have to be adaptable and change as you advance in your career.
So what worked for you when you're just an associate veterinarian or lead technician responsible for 56 people but a servant leadership style can be really successful because you kind of get to people's intrinsic motivation and build this.
Or with them and show that you care about them as a person, not just about the business itself and so you can be really successful there but then as you move up and you start having more direct reports and you're responsible for 100-150 people.If you try to be a servant leader, you're just going to burn out.
There's just no way possible to do that.You can't take care of 150 people.That way you can't take calls in the middle of night.Oh, there's this problem.Going on.I'm coming right to your house right now, but you can choose to have that style with With kind of the leaders one step below you.
And so they get that from you, learn it from you and they can treat their people below them as a servant leader.But when you're dealing with everybody else, you need to adopt a different style, maybe that's transformational leadership.There's lots of different styles you can do and just being able to adapt your leadership style as you change.
Positions is really important.So that's kind of kind of what I've seen and learned through my masters.For must wait businesses.It will be smaller teams, right?Majority of it.Businesses are a smaller team.So in that scenario is the servant leadership style.
Do you feel like that's what from what you've learned is that most applicable and then beyond that for the occasional bigger company where people do get into roles?What does it look like?Yeah, I think transformational leadership is the most common that you see if a lot of changes need to occur, which is often the case.
Because as corporate or as we call consolidators by up clinics, they're trying to change the culture and adopt it to their style and so you need to have change.And so transformational leadership style is more common and a big element of that transformational leadership is kind of what we talked about before where you allow people to have a say in the changes.
Its we've all heard that saying Tell them what to do.Don't tell them how to do it.That's a big aspect of transformational leadership is like, hey, here's a changes we want to make but you are the one that's been working here.How do you see we can do this?What's the right way to do this?Do you think it's the right idea?
Maybe you have a different idea and just including them in that conversation.Just going back to the, like, I know what's on it strict kind of guideline, you know, 6 and less servitude and then above so whatever.But the servant leadership it is, maybe servant is the one that you go.
You naturally first but then regardless of the number of people, ideally you want to go above that because one, it takes the pressure of you and to then then transforms then and then they start to then develop the skills and Powers them to develop leadership skills upwards as well.
Otherwise you keep in staying in this servant leadership style because you just not allowing other people to then you have the freedom and space to capacity to develop themselves.So, regardless of Team, Sizemore Sighs.The goal would be to level up beyond that level.
Definitely.I think what we commonly see is people, don't necessarily choose a leadership style and try to lead in that way.They just kind of act as themselves and they kind of self-select themselves as Leaders like, okay, this person people seem to follow this person, they seem to like him or her so they're a good leader and we move them up but I think it's really important.
That people look into these different styles and fabrics.Figure out which one works best for them and adapt to the situation.So I can't just say this leadership styles, the best.You should use this one or that one, because some people may not have the skills to be a great servant leader or charismatic leader, but they might be really good at a different style.
So for somebody who is in a leadership position, so practice manager level or clinical manager of IT director or something, is it, can you change your leadership style?Because I feel like you will have a tendency based on your personality to the lead in a certain way if the role then changes.
And so let's say I'm naturally a servant leader, I liked it, I have a small team and it really works very well.But now my company grows and I'm responsible for more people or the Situation changes like it is currently in red science with his other.Stresses and demands.Did a question of saying well I'm no longer the appropriate leader.
Let's get somebody with the right style to take over.Or is it possible to set go?Well, I need to change my leadership style even though it might clash with my values and who I am at heart?Is that doable?I think both are durable.You definitely see people that get promoted into positions that were great leaders and they just can't make the changes in that new role in They need to be taken out of it, but I do think with committed effort, people can change and learn new leadership skills and adapt to their situation, but it's hard.
And a lot of people don't know where to get that information from.If they don't have a good Mentor above them to help them adapt that leadership style.It's going to be much more difficult to be successful.Yeah.So resources if somebody is in that situation, do you have any that you really like that you can recommend people go to I think one of my favorite authors on leadership is Daniel pink.
He has a lot of different books and YouTube videos yet.So you're shaking your head, you've heard of them.I think he's pretty commonly known by people who even don't study leadership.And I think his writing is easily understandable to most people.So that's who I typically recommend.You can learn a lot from his work.
Oh, I listen to, I'm going to do a shout-out for the whole video podcast.When I was researching you, I saw you had a conversation with her on the, a great podcast as well.And I liked your, the little blue truck book that you use as a transformative leader.
I have to admit.I'm not familiar with, even though I have little kids, we never found the little blue truck, but I actually, like the way you explained it.So without, I don't want to rehash the same content if anybody wants to hear and talk about what a transform transformational leader.Look, He's like look for that episode.
Do want to ask a follow-up question based on that and it's a hard question so I don't expect if you had the answer, then you'll save a lot of big clinics, a lot of time but I want to use that all example that I see currently and I hear a lot of Veteran leaders stuck in.
And really struggling with is, let's say the little blue truck owns a vet clinic.He has a veteran team really care and they really are bought into the vision of the business end.Now why we do what we do but they're understaffed, they are tired, they struggle with motivation and they don't know what the way the light at the end of the tunnel is how does the little blue truck deal with the situation?
How does it lead that team through this difficult situation?Yeah that's definitely the million dollar question and if I know this I think I could buy get some good work as a consultant.So I think we all know that it's really multifactorial, but I think in the veterinary Community we're over-reliance on intrinsic motivation to get our employees to work.
Like we all love animals, we got into this field because we really want to do it.So we have a lot of intrinsic motivation to work hard and work extra hours but we can only do that for so long and we get burned out and so leaders need to try to address some extrinsic motivation.
Factors.An example I like to use is I'm sure we're all tired of talking about the pandemic but when the pandemic first hit, I was working that out of corporate practice and we were all kind of panicked.Like we're not going to have any clients like we're going to shut down, we're all going to lose our jobs, right?
And that lasted all of like a week week and a half and then we're like what is going on like why are we so busy?Things are insane.And I specifically remember a few times the leadership managers and talked about how this is amazing.
We've you guys have done X number of dollars of work.This is a record for us.I can't believe it.And all the team is like, well, I mean, we don't see any change other than we're just working harder.Like, that's not helping us.We've got no raise, no bonus nothing.
And I'm not saying it always has to be money, but if they're working harder and The Business, Is benefiting, they should benefit in some way to.So addressing some of those extrinsic motivation factors, making sure they have proper reward.In when we talk about reward is different for every person, right?
Some people may value a monetary reward, some people may value time off some people want recognition some people don't want recognition at all.Like, have you ever had those people that just, like, get super uncomfortable if you acknowledge them in front of everyone?I'm kind of that way.
Like the second you start doing that.I'm like, oh no it To me.It was the team they did.It was all of them.So understanding your team in that way.Whether that's conducting a survey and sitting down with each person as a new hire like.Hey, if you do a great job, how would you like to be recognized just knowing those aspects of your team can really help when they're feeling just overwhelmed and burnt out?
The full five years ago, went through a phase where through engagement surveys reward and recognition was one of the areas that has highlighted that we needed to do.Do more of and we started doing public recognition.A republic acknowledgement of people's, those are the achievements but their contributions, their overcoming challenges like the progress and highlighting the progress towards getting better as opposed to the actual accomplishment to some degree.
And then people were exactly.You said people were being rude and comfortable with it.And then we go, like, okay, how would you like to be Every case it was just like the answers, we go back.We don't know.As you can see just like okay, that was really not helpful, guys, but I think over time you do learn, if you are attuned to people your ass probably individual basis.
I like what you said, Andrew that it is individual because I think the Temptation is to go.All right, we're going to do this.We're going to have a angel bonus system.We get a percentage of earnings or something like that, which for a lot of people they go.Yes, absolutely.And let me see the dollars.
And I'm bringing my share of the dollars that I'm bringing in and then for other people it's really not that like yeast.I see this discussion later at some special events because of our attitudes about money and feelings that we have that.It's a love job, it's not for money.That actually are great uncomfortable with that to go all.
It's interfering with my values and morals and then the poor business owner or manager who installs a thinking, what I'm trying to do the right thing.And now some of you are really happy at some of you really pissed off.I don't know.What do you guys want?You can get really frustrated with it.Ask ask, what do you want?
How do you want to be part of it?Yeah, I think a good example is what I'm doing right now and one of my main jobs, before I started with the Galaxy vets Foundation is working for the national dog rescue, which is a non-profit in.I've been working there for over two and a half years and I've been emailed called text LinkedIn message with constant.
Hey, I have a hundred thousand dollar bonus if you'll come work for me, fifty thousand dollar bonus, I'll give you this starting salary.You know, and I chose to stay because money wasn't the number one priority for me.Yes, I wanted to make decent money and they pay me well enough, but there was a ton of job satisfaction.
There was a lot of appreciation for the work I was doing there.I had a lot of autonomy to kind of run the clinic how I wanted to, and that was much more valuable than just money and the recruiters didn't really understand that they were never trying to recruit me in that method, like, hey, we can develop this job in a way that's appealing to You it's just here's the money.
We'd love to have you and that just wasn't drawn me in.I think we see that with a lot of bets.So you go back to this, this non-for-profit, what's it called again?So national dog, rescue is where I work, as a medical director right now where we rescue commercial breeding dogs, all across the United States and fix them up and adopt them out.
Okay?Well then I'm, yeah, I'm part of another nonprofit.It's just the Galaxy that's Foundation.Which right now, our main efforts are in Ukraine.Providing free Telehealth services to pet owners and Ukraine.Since a lot of them don't have access to veterinarians right now.And so there's some real I mean of breeding dogs.
What will cut you into that?How did you transition into that?Yeah, it was kind of by luck mostly, you know, so I had left the Army and was working in corporate practice and one of my best friends in town was a huge volunteer out there and she just absolutely loved it.And any time I saw her, she was like me to work for them.
You need to work for them.I had talked to him a few times.I didn't really have a position at the time and then when a finally got an opportunity to start doing some relief, work out there.And so I did a few shifts kind of learned, we were really good fit and when the opportunity came available, they asked me if I Be interested and it really fit with my personal life at that time, just needing more consistent Powers.
Not, you know, staying late, things like that, ability to say, hey, like, I just can't come today because I had a son at the time who had some medical issues, like, hey, I need to be available for his medical appointment, and that was just a huge stress off my back when I could call the rescue and say, hey, just put those four or five dogs that are on the surgery, schedule back, and we'll get to him tomorrow where as that?
Private Practice, it was like, Hey, I can't come in today.Those 20 dogs that are on the schedule.Now they're trying to move them around to everybody else's schedule and and stressing them out.And that made me feel guilty, so it's just kind of the perfect fit for me at the time.And then within that role in capacity, did you do some work with in leadership, within organization leadership within that in that within that organization.
I think there was some change management that needed to occur when I came on there.So there was a lot of contention with the veterinary staff prior to my arrival, where there was basically no communication between the different groups within the rescue because everyone was kind of scared of the vet team and the vet team wasn't really making the effort to make friends with everybody else.
And so they were kind of in their silos and so I had to do some work to break those down.And really, it was leadership, by example was the main way I did it.Like, I spent time despite the busy schedule, just going across other side and getting to know volunteers, getting to know, people working in adoptions and just putting that effort in and then slowly, my team saw like, okay things are going to be different.
Now, we're all going to get along and they started doing it too and now like it's just a great environment to work in.Listen, because that is something that happens within practice.So, even within the busy whole Square, you can have that silos of teams.Nurses vs B versus nurseries vets and nurses against reception team because I don't understand what's happening at the back and how busy you are, keep on poking people in a team versus night team, right?
Oh, that's a big one.They T vs 90, it's always the fault of the emergency team.Yeah, sometimes it's just that.Sewell, that walks across the aisle and makes that relationship.But also I think you could kind of do some horizontal leveling and have teams even though they may be a technician, who's more qualified?
Hey, let's go work with the reception team today and use your knowledge to help them, and they start building those relationships on that team and then the receptionist become more comfortable coming to the vet tech team or vet nurse team asking the questions.
Whereas before Might be hesitant to do so, because they've been yelled at before kind of discarded.As you start building, those relationships between the teams and slowly breaking down, those silos.Mmm.That's really helpful.That is Andrew non-for-profit work.
So you said that was the first one was the mill dog.And you said, you took that job because of the practicalities to some degree.But now being involved in the Galaxy weights and they not-for-profit arm.What is it about?The not-for-profit work.That suppose that takes your boxes are makes you want to do more of it.
Yeah, I think I've just always been that way.I grew up and was raised Catholic and not necessarily still religious, but I went to a private, what we call Jesuit universities in high school.I'm not sure if you're familiar with the Jesuits Act of the Catholic faith, they just had a heavy heavy emphasis on service to others, education and service in.
So I did a lot of service projects and I kind of learned that I really liked it and that was a big reason why I joined the army to.Like I just wanted to give back.I felt like I've had so much given to me and you know, I had a family that was really supportive and helped me along the way and I had all these advantages in life.
And so I wanted to help those that maybe didn't have as many as I did.So joining the Army to give back to the country, had opportunity in the Army to do projects helping in third world countries in So the second I had another opportunity to get back into the nonprofit world, I took it because I just find it really rewarding.
Mmm, I get that because I say, I see this, I experienced this and I'm sure a lot of other people do is a conflict that we have because other one and I firmly believe that we have to have successful businesses so that we can take care of those external rewards that you mentioned earlier.
So that we can prevent the burnout and all the stuff that we talk about all the time.But then also, there is that desired to give, so there's like is a friction name between their well, we're going to make money but I also I want to feel that I am giving like a good person.
We when we all started down this path because we want to take care of animals.We want to preserve the relationship between animals and their owners, but then to make a really successful business, you often have to go against those instincts and say now we will can't do that or less or I can't do this because you can't afford it.
And how well, how do you make these two jobs?You sound like you like that as well.It's a, is it something that you struggle with and then B?How do You deal with it.And how do we deal with it as a profession?Why don't you wear a really good point of like the business needs to be successful, right?
Like we can't help people if none of us have jobs.So what we see a lot in the business world is businesses, don't really look to do charity work or stand up their foundations until they're already super successful, and they made a lot of money.
But that's one of the reasons I'm really proud of galaxies vets because there are a start-up, I mean, they only own a few.This is right now and they've already stood up a foundation and I'm really adamant about the foundation benefiting the business side as well.
So I think if you're working in the nonprofit world or working for a corporation that has some charity work, you need to be able to communicate, what's the value to the business as well?And I think a lot of us get kind of icky feelings over that but there's nothing wrong with a business benefiting from their charity, work at all.
So it just makes it more sustainable.And we call it strategic Corporate social responsibility, and it's kind of the business term for it.So aligning your nonprofit work with your business values in having it benefit the business and positive ways doesn't necessarily have to.
Just be monetary, will make it more sustainable.How so, so what I say more sustainable, I mean making the charity work, more sustainable because the second, the business is struggling for money.What's the first thing?
They're going to cut, its going to be the charity work.But if you can show like, hey, here's the benefits to what we're doing.This is how it's helping your business, they're more likely to continue it.So we haven't dug in a lot into the Galaxy.That's Foundation of what we've been doing.
But we mentioned, how we're doing Telehealth with?Volunteers for pet owners and Ukraine so what's the benefit for Galaxy vets?Business side?Well Galaxy vets is really intent on developing telemedicine within the veterinary Health Care system in the US.
So they had an opportunity to build and test the platform in learn some things about how to effectively administer tell a triage and Telehealth so that's one benefit.There's also not a really good understanding And of Telehealth within the veterinary Community.
I don't know if it's different in Australia, but certainly in even with the pandemic people, just like really uncomfortable with it, they don't like it and we've had over 250 volunteers, who now have more comfort with telemedicine and so that helps that helps when the business needs to promote Telehealth like hey there's more people out there that are comfortable with it.
They'll share it with their friends and say, hey it's not that hard like you can do it.Cool.The want to come back to telemedicine and what you guys have been learning from this because it's what a cool training ground.And I'd love to hear some stories from the.Well, let's just start with that.
Give us a bit more detail of what that looks like.And have you got any cool stories from that and then also, what are you learning from it?What have you learned?Because I'm like, you, I the concept of Veggie telemedicine.I really struggle with a record of.Gotta put my hands on an animal to actually intimidating because I'm aware of through knowing Ivanov what you guys do.
Do and I haven't talked to my shame, I haven't signed up yet, I thought I've got to do this, I've got to give it a try and I didn't because I was just too scared.I was like well how am I gonna help somebody on the other side of the world with their bed on telemedicine?And I was literally just too intimidated by it.
Well, we would absolutely love to have you as a volunteer, but the kind of give some background on it.We elected to do a chat based platform because we needed the translation services.So, having a video based platform just wouldn't be possible.Isabel because the vast majority of ukrainians don't speak English and we don't have very many ukrainian-speaking volunteers, so we chose to do a chat based platform.
So, since we've started, we've actually exceeded over 20,000 pet owners helped, which is way more than I ever thought possible.So the demand has been really high.We have a couple advantages working in Ukraine in that there's not as many laws and restrictions on what we can do to help them.
So that's one of the biggest challenges in the US.Yes.And why I think people are really hesitant to get into Telehealth, as the rules are really murky around.What can I do for a pet?And I haven't put my hands on it, whereas in Ukraine, we reached out to like their Ministry of Health and just make sure like hey is there going to be any issue with us?
Providing medical advice and they said no like please help us out and so we've been able to do our best with diagnosing and prescribing.So another benefit and Ukraine is a lot of their medications can be purchased from a local pharmacy without a prescription.
That has helped a lot but we're definitely seeing strategies within the u.s. develop to through chewy and different companies that you get Telehealth can prescribe medications and just have it shipped directly to their house.So I do think this will be a solution coming and in the North American Market, I'm sure it'll end up in Australia as well.
We've had some crazy cases, we've had a lot of, just your routine cases, but I think what a lot of our volunteers I've seen is you can really help them.A lot of them don't have access to.Oh, any veterinary care at all.So anything you can do to help even if it's just providing emotional support to that pet owner, can be really impactful.
And so we've had a few cases, where the animals really injured or really sick and there's not a lot you can do and you're just there for the person and I feel like that's just as important, yes, you want to help animals, but in a time of tragedy, as this war has become so much more important to people and we talk about the human animal Bond all the time in our impact, We can have on that even if we're not treating the animal, but just being there for the person is just so huge.
So leaking at bat.So we to be talked about how the tele Health Service.It links back to an organizational goal of bringing tele-health and getting people used to tell the health within North America prior and then working through that process to develop the systems, right?
So you developing the system to an outcome that you want to achieve within your organization itself, but then that desire to help others that desire to help people in need.Need is overcoming the pains and challenges like the it's like the outcome that you want to achieve, overcomes the pain of change and process and all the fears are coming associated with that because there's a higher purpose to that.
Is that what you guys are finding in a sense?Definitely, I think we've seen that from our volunteers mostly because like, we talked about already, a lot of them came into it, just really uncomfortable with the idea of Telehealth in the feedback we've received or I'm so glad I did this.
I just felt like I was able to help people in.It was just it got back to that intrinsic motivation that we kind of lose when we're just overwhelmed day-to-day working in a vet clinic and having people yelling at you and they're like I was just able to help people in their pets and it was amazing and it was rejuvenating.
And so it's been an awesome experience.Yeah.That's what I often think about is.How do we get that disconnect?Because I've experienced that with charitable work as well.When I volunteered in Indonesia, doing just doing sterilization work and somehow when you do that, you don't get you don't get died.
So it's a burnout or self-pity of look real.It was such a long shift for me or that, never crossed my mind.It's just you're out there.It's basic work, it Scrappy like, you're doing stuff on a kitchen table and things, go wrong and it's hot, and I'm comfortable in his flies, and I don't know.
Is it just the change of scenery or is it an intrinsic motivator?That goes.Well, this is good work.It's why I can do it all day.As literally drowning through the bush for 14 hours, trying to catch these dogs to D6 them versus all these.We had that these really fun because we I'm just trying to help you do exactly.
And then you had one red work doing kind of the same crime.Maybe it is, maybe that's the problem.It's not the same kind of work, may be pampered, pets, and paranoid owners who wins about small, little things are draining versus wealth shit.I'm doing here is real.It's real.It's an impactful.Is that every do you think I'm in the right?
Like, why do you think there is that disconnect of, why can you do the one without complain?I often think about when you complain about work as Maids, I'm very much in the camp of it has to get better because I was dissatisfied.This fight as a wait for such a long time and then I look at other situations, like the war in Ukraine or dramatic, big things that people go through and they do it and they keep going.
And then I go, well, why was just soft?Why do you think there's a disconnect and how do we bring it back into everyday, life into the jobs that we do?I don't know that I have the answer but I definitely I think money is a distorting factor.We only have to work for a job but it makes me think of when we very first started.
This initiative and we were getting our first volunteers.We were struggling to reach Ukrainian pet owners and so we didn't have like a lot of questions.I was only a few a day as we'd have volunteers logged in for, you know, two hours whatever and they were just so disappointed like, oh, I just wasn't really able to help very many people, whereas if they were getting paid to do that job and there was nobody to talk to, I wouldn't, you know, kick their feet up and been like sipping, their coffee.
Like like itching like yes, you know.So I have to think that it's a contributing factor and that's not to say we shouldn't get paid for a job.I think we all know we should, but I think it just has some negative impacts that are hard to fix.So is that may be a potential fix for it is to integrate.
It is that come back to having not-for-profit arms.As part of a business is that one of the potential payoffs is to say, well, you have your paid job and what rolled into that?We offer X.This is where we get involved in and to take those boxes of going.
Well, this is why I really do it.I don't know.Is that because you talked about for a business to have a sustainable charitable arm?How do you say?It to the business.And if you do see a lot of businesses that may not have their own charitable arm, but they will allow employees to work X number of days a year, had a charity and they'll pay them and I think that's maybe not for everybody, but going back to those individual rewards type of thing.
A lot of people might be really motivated by that and I think a lot of people in our community would like, okay, you know, a couple times a year.I'm still getting paid, but I'm going to help someone else.I think they would really enjoy that.I have a random question for you injury.When I was Googling, you see the researching, you're looking at the stuff you've done, I found you all your social profile, the okay, vit, why the okay with it?
But it's choose that Sandra's, if you want to find out what Instagram is the okay with it.I think it's because it's honest.I think one of the big stressors to me for veterinarians is we have to know so much, right?Like we talked about all the time, where the dentist's were the anesthesiologist for the surgeon where the internal medicine, Choice.
And we get so stressed out because we want to be perfect or the best that all of those.And when I finally accepted like, I'm just okay, as a vet, I have some strengths and I have some weaknesses, my mental health really improved, my wasn't as stressed at work and so that's where the title comes from is, okay, but I really like that because we were driven punch, right?
We not as veterinarian, specifically, we used to doing well, like you don't get into vet.But without doing really well at school and getting Chosen and I find that with the game experience it and find it all the time is that need for high performance of perfection all the time which is really draining and really exhausted.
It was that you did where you that sort of person or you always happy with being the okay with it.I don't think I was always happy like I really wanted to go do a residency and become really specialized and do the best at something.In just over time I just kind of evolved in the Army I think presented some unique challenges because we were in and out of clinical work so much like I might do clinical work for a week and then I'm off doing a mission somewhere for 34 weeks and then I'm back in the clinic and it got really hard to become good at it became very stressful and so it really wasn't until after I left and was in private practice.
Actors and able to do it every day.I just started seeing like, okay.I just can't be great at all of this.And I need to learn how to be okay with being, okay?So how did you make peace with it?I don't think it was like a moment in time, it was just kind of a slow realization.
And yeah, I just kind of I think I just had to do it to protect my mental health and just accept the skills.I had, it doesn't mean that you stop trying to improve and you know, it's not like Ophthalmology is one thing I just really struggle with.So it's not like I'm like oh any I think I'm just not going to look at it.
Certainly, if you're in a larger practice, you might have someone that's really good at that and you can share that caseload.But I still put the effort in to do as best I can, but I'm just not going to get crushed over the fact that I'm not going to be an expert.Yeah, it's a journey, right?
It is that it just takes a while to get there, but I like that you actually named it and he went, I am the, okay, vet, and I'm okay with being okay, that's fine, quick.Plug for our clinical podcasts, and read talks here about being okay, with being okay.
But here's the thing over time, if you don't guard against it, okay?As a vet, can become a little bit, let's call it.South of okay little bit Rusty.How clinical podcast aimed to maintain.Okay.And then nudge Beyond.
Okay.All the way to hey kind of know.My shit like address is accepting being.Okay, doesn't mean that you stop improving and because of the way our content is presented mostly audio.Easy to consume on the go but by bit with great notes to refer back to when you need them, we do the nudging without sacrificing the other things in your A life that matters to you.
Go back to that delicious monster concept right 1 cm added time give it a try for free at VV n dot supercars.com.Well let's do the pass it along question first.
So I'm going to get you to give me a question that I'm going to ask our next guest, not knowing who the next guest is.But you get a question first from my previous guests and our previous guest wanted to know if Andrew Was not of it.What would he have done to for a living?
Yeah.And I spent some time thinking about this because as most of us like I was bent on being a veterinarian like there was nothing else.I was going to do, it had to be a veterinarian and I don't know what would have happened if I didn't succeed, but I had to pick.
I think it would have been one of two things.Either would have still gone into the army, just as some other specialty whether it's infantry or armor or something.Or I would have went to some other type of medical field like maybe Pharmacy PA something like that.Okay, so not to vastly different you and go to be a ballerina or an artist.
So I think that is, no, I had no artistic talent grown up.So okay, cool.And so, what's your question for me to excuse?My question would be, what is your favorite dog, breed, and why is it to all of us?It's my kids actually watched Beverly Hills Chihuahua this week, which is I sort of watching in the background.
That's it.Everybody odds are.That's why because thing adventurous and it Harkens back to my social media.If you watch the videos, I talked about 12 hours.A lot.Why ways, the Chihuahua fixation from?It's just, it's a far cry from Belgian, Malinois reason.
It isn't actually a, pretty much always been a big dog person.I've had big dogs and then my wife brought tiny little Chihuahua and to the max, he was only like three and a half pounds and he was just the perfect dog just Just friendly with everybody which I know, isn't it?Typical Chihuahua just wanted to cuddle all the time and I just love them to death.
He was just the best little dog and then working up a national Builder rescue, we get a lot of small dogs and just kind of started enjoying them more and more even when they're spicy.I don't care how spicy but Chihuahua it is.I still love them.That's the thing.I have this weird thing I could I do like being aggressive dogs.
That's partially why I asked you about the military dogs?Because it's a big dog that can actually hurt me.There's a definite Effective a ride.It's sort of a lot of anyways.See this do, because I'm shit scared of it, but I've with small dogs, it's become almost humorous.I'm like, yeah, you go nuts.
Made you try and kill real.All I have to just put a towel over your head and then you disarmed.You can actually hit me like, I D like, they really angry to our better day to finally, ladies, I just need to check.So, did you get it to her while you were still in the military?Or was it post-military days because I'm just picturing you rocking up at work with your Chihuahua and a handbag.
Yeah, I was still in the military and I do remember one time I brought him in to work as he was, he was kind of sick and I had a chat, my boss come down.He was a radiologist, do an ultrasound for me.And he was like, he was just totally shocked that I would have such a tiny little dog.
Exactly.Just imagine those Dog, Handlers seeing the VA to takes care of their dogs with his Chihuahua.Yeah.And it doesn't bother me.I think it's hilarious.It's cold.And to do you listen to podcasts, are you?Podcast fan.Yeah well you mentioned the whole veterinarian and that was the first podcast I did and connected with dr.
Stacy quarter Bono through Instagram.Kind of one of my first connections through Instagram which the we call it the best to G Community is really amazing and supportive so I always listen to hers.I think she does a great job the veterinary Innovation podcast which is done by dr.Ivan Zach who is the CEO Galaxy vets and help me stand up the Galaxy meds Foundation.
Really good topics there.So those are the two main ones I listen to Okay.You stick to the bad stuff?Yeah.Yeah.And then our very last question.Answer is the one question the big question.So you're at a talk somewhere online event and you have all of the veteran, a new grads on one room.
You got a couple of minutes to just give them one message or one bit of advice for their careers and their lives.What is your message?My message is to not be afraid to reinvent themselves.I think a lot of times we go into veterinary school and we're focused on like this is what I want to do.
This is why I want to be whether that's general practice or an equine veterinarian or food animal veterinarian in.I think.Now there's just even more and more opportunities for us to use the skills we have in different roles and it can just keep things fresh and make you a better veterinarian.
So you could be in general practice for three years.And then maybe step out and work for the state government for a few years then go back to GP and I bet you'd be a better general practice veterinarian so don't be afraid to reinvent yourself and try to avoid burnout that way.I really like that because I think Maybe it's a thought process or the belief is that if I have this journey and I and again it comes back to wanting to be the Superstar versus just being.
Okay?I can't D to it.If I want to be a really good, small animal surgeon or an ophthalmologist to something.This is the journey and I'm going to stick to it and anything that pulls me off that track, it's going to be a distraction and a waste of time potentially.
But I like what you say and I've heard so many people say it is those little detours in the Fractions that either can open up a whole new field or add value when you come back to the thing that you want to do if you still want to do that thing.Yeah, I mean you're doing it right?Like you're you have a podcast.
Did you ever consider podcast even really exist back when we went to vet school but from emergency veterinarian to hosting a podcast?I mean, I think that's really cool and you tell me, has it been a rewarding adventure and 100%?Yeah, it's exactly.It was at something on my right on.
No, absolutely not.I remember and it's interesting when you talk to That desire to be to be so good.I remember it.You two having a conversation with a friend and we sort of talked about our goals and finally, a and getting ready to enter the work world and we talk about, what do we want from our careers?
And I remember saying tomorrow, I'd love it.Have to be the vet Elevate school or advice.What an ego driven thing isn't it to go?That's that.Just want to be that good.That other people look up to me and call me clinical advice and finding over the years that doesn't really Take my boxes and right back at you and look at what you doing, starting a nonprofit that I think is going to do great things.
That's amazing.How did that happen by the way?How did you cross paths with Ivan and Galaxy?It was kind of a chance to you.As I was home sick from covid, just locked in the basement.Isolating from the family and came across an advertisement for Galaxy vets and in looked more into it and just really aligned with their ideas on how to improve the veterinary Health Care system.
And so I Attended one of their meetups and I was like, this, is it, like I want to work for this company and so, I reached out to Ivan directly in just tried to pitch him, like, Hey, like I want to be a part of this, and at the time, he just he didn't have anything available.And he was like, you know what, I would love to have you work with me as soon as something comes up.
I will let you know.And, for those that don't know, you know, Ivan's, originally from Ukraine, he emigrated to North America around 20 years ago.So, the second the war kicked off, he called me up and he's like, I want to do this.And I want you to do it for me, will you come on board?And I didn't even hesitate.
I was like, absolutely.Well, there's another thing to add to your one message to new grads is go for the things you want, right?If you see it don't wait for the job ad to come up or something goat.Put yourself out there and put your hand up.You'll be amazed, I offered, you get big, I thank you so so much for your time and thank you for what you do.
And I'm very curious to see what the next thing is for.The not-for-profit arm once there hopefully wants to Or any trainers over.And that's not necessary anymore.I would like to see where you guys go with it.Thank you for doing it man.Yeah, thanks for hosting me and helping us just kind of spread awareness what we're doing.
How are you feeling about work?For the year ahead?We started this podcast to help you find ways to make your video agree and the career you build around it fit with the life you want to live or if that's too ambitious.Then at the very least to make work not suck.And I personally thought that the answers to a fulfilling happy carrier, as of it, lay in personal growth and better.
Workplaces, and all of the other non-clinical stuff that we, Talk about which is true.But something that surprised me, when we started doing, the clinical podcasts was help bigger role that played in my personal enjoyment of work and judging by the feedback, we get from our listeners.It's a common occurrence.
Here's why I think it is.It sucks to feel in the dark, with your cases to feel green or Rusty in your knowledge, you feel guilty because you feel like you should know more and you should be learning more but you're also trying to have a life outside of it.So ongoing learning Falls by the wayside A side on the flip side, it's a really nice feeling to know your stuff when you get that case to know the answer or if there is an answer to know that it's not because of your lack of knowledge.
It's just one of those cases competence breeds confidence, and confidence is key.And our clinical podcasts is, the easiest way to work on your competence little bits of growth every week with minimal effort on your part, try it it works.
Join our growing community of it felt needs and get your mojo back at VV, m dot supercars.com.Join our growing community of it felt needs and get your mojo back at VV, m dot supercars.com.

Dr Andrew Ciccolini