Jan. 29, 2023

#85: Reality minus expectations, and a guide on how not to screw over your colleagues. With Dr Denis Verwilghen

#85: Reality minus expectations, and a guide on how not to screw over your colleagues. With Dr Denis Verwilghen
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Season 1

How nice are you to your fellow veterinarians? It's likely that most of us feel that we're professional and supportive with a high degree of collegiality. But if this is true, then why is it that so many vets have experiences that don't fit with this narrative - feelings of being 'thrown under the bus'? 

Dr Denis Verwilghen is boarded in both large animal surgery and equine dentistry. He’s a graduate of the University of Ghent in Belgium and he’s currently the clinical director of Goulburn Valley Equine Hospital. The path between those two points has taken him on a journey across many continents, cultures and institutions and afforded him the opportunity to wear multiple hats within the vet space, and has given him a unique set of insights. And Denis feels that when it comes to collegiality, we can do better. 

In this conversation, we explore where and how we fall short when it comes to our working relationships with each other, including some less obvious ways in which we sometimes unintentionally undermine each other.  We also talk about career goals vs life goals and the personal cost of chasing these, Denis’s thoughts on making major life decisions, and what he’s learnt about happiness. 

 

Join us at the VECCS Spring Symposium in Port Douglas on 23-26 March for some serious deep dives on all things fluid therapy and critical care, live podcasting, and heaps of fun in the jungles of Far North Queensland. 

 

Go to thevetvault.com for show notes and to check out our guests’ favourite books, podcasts and everything else we talk about in the show.

Get confident in your clinical game with our short and sharp highly practical clinical podcasts at vvn.supercast.com.

We love to hear from you. If you have a question for us or you’d like to give us some feedback please get in touch via email at thevetvaultpodcast@gmail.com, or just catch up with us on Instagram.

And if you like what you hear then please share the love by clicking on the share button wherever you’re listening and sending a link to someone who you think should hear this. 

 

 

 

How nice are you to your colleagues?And my colleagues, I don't mean just the people who work in the same building as you.I mean colleagues in the broader sense the vet and the clinic down the road, The Specialist, you referred to all the way to refers to you that students in practice with you your boss and yes, the person who works in the same building as you I bet that you thinking I'm really nice, I'm professional supportive when I need to be and I would never throw a fellow vet under the bus.
Except then we do our guest for this episode is the associate professor Denis. 511 Denis is a double boarded specialist in large animal surgery and acquaintances tree is currently the Clinical Director of goulburn Valley.Equine Hospital which is associated with Melbourne, universities vet school is a graduate from the University of Ghent in Belgium with a career.
That is way too long to list here in detail, which is taking him on a journey through many continents countries cultures and Clinics where he is, Watch teams and the humans within these teams function or sometimes not function, he's won multiple metaphorical heads.
Over the two decades of his career which is allowed him a unique set of insights.And Danny feels that when it comes to collegiality we can do better.In this conversation, we explore where, and how we fall short, when it comes to our relationships with each other, including the less obvious ways in which we sometimes disrespect each other.
I was going to say screw each other over, but that would be disrespectful as you'll hear from the nice story.He's a bit of a high achiever and he's also married to another Super achieving vet.So, of course, we had to talk about career goals versus life goals.Denise towards on making major life decisions, the personal cost, Of chasing your goals and what is learned about happiness.
Now before we jump in just a quick heads up on an upcoming event that will be involved in on 23 to 26 March this year.So that's 20 23 in case you listening to this in the distant future.We are doing some more live podcasting at the Vex Spring Symposium in Port Douglas so that's the Veterinary emergency and critical case society which is a community of it professionals, who get really excited about everything.
Critical Care related, you might have heard about, Ibex the big International ECC conference.So this is sort of a condensed version of that and for the first time they having it right here in us, the major theme for the 2023 event is fluid and electrolyte therapy but there's also a session on Australian snake bite and a great case discussion session with the absolutely world-class speakers.
And the vet Vault has access to them.Will be the microphone in hand with my normal vast level of ignorance and annoying persistence that we'll use to dig deeper into their topics of expertise live and In person and we'd love for you to join us.Evacs events are notoriously fun.
And for Douglas, in Far, North Queensland is an Exquisite part of the world and I'm thrilled to be going link to book is in the show description wherever you listening.Now note that this is a Vex, members-only event.But if you have any interest in ECC, then it's well with joining beyond the huge depth of clinical content, the perks alone make it.
Well with my meditation practice is definitely looking much better since I've joined with the free headspace.Subscription that comes with Vex membership.Okay, let's jump in with dr.Denis.Dr. Denis for bilgin.
Am I saying I said I'm right.Oh yeah.You're probably doing the best for Vulcan Vulcan Village and yeah, we'll hit.Thank you.Welcome to the vet.But we have a lot to talk about.Should we start with bad decisions?Lead to good stories.
True or false.With an example.If you have one Yeah, I thought about that one who Burt about, you know what, what would I pick?And I think the there's two that folded minders the recent one and there's the old one and I might start with the old one, they're both related.
When I finished my residency and spend about seven or eight years there.In Belgium, at the University of liège, got the opportunity to go to tube salla in Sweden and Very much without thinking.
Gabby and I who we had a newborn in Thomas with a couple of months old, we sold our house, we put all our belongings into a safeguard and we left for Sweden like no thinking.
And I guess that when you say bad decisions that end up, good or odd, I think you don't think about making a bad decision.I don't think there is such a thing as making a bad decision.And because at the time every decision you make seems like the good decision anyway.But we found ourselves in a different country, different culture, different climate in the sense that when it was summer in Sweden, well, it's pretty much light all the time, so it was quite difficult to deal with, but then also a very, very different work culture and so forth.
So I think we are just six months Gabby and I decided that, you know, that was it.We We wouldn't stay there and we packed our stuff and came back to more Central Europe.So, what looked like a good decision initially went out to be, you know, probably a bad one because it was taken a little bit overhauled and full of enthusiasm, and that has happened again with us several times after.
And I think most recently, after a couple of years in Sydney, we we went back to you, Open got a nice positioned offered in Germany, which then eventually didn't really turn out to be what we were promised.
Not that all to the point that we arrived in a, in a clinic in Germany.And the next day after we were there, we were told that that clinic was about to close and if we wouldn't mind moving to another clinic about an hour more south of that, so we were working for a big corporate group and that Bad decision of going back to Europe, which we were looking forward at the time because we felt, we were far away from family, and friends and so forth.
And was actually quite a good thing, because we discovered how much we actually enjoyed living in Australia.And the other thing that I discovered is that I believe more than Gabby who by the way, if I talk about Gabby, that's my real better have the one that pushes me and supports me.
All the time and that's a board.It's medicine and emergency critical care specialist for horses and is that there is more to life than work.And I think that's mostly what we learned out of our back-and-forth trip to, to Europe is that we made another approach to to work and life than we've done for the 20 years before that.
And so that That what seemed to be a bad decision has actually led to very good self development and self-awareness in that we're back in Australia to live.Not necessarily to work.Work has come secondary to the life which hasn't been the case for 20 years.
Now that's something I definitely wanted to get into but I first want to talk about your work comments about the good decision bad decision making on the trying to figure out if this is that there's a takeaway in there for you or for listeners because we can agonize about big life decisions like this, can we like do I do I specialize, do I move, do I take that job?
Do I do this?And I know from our experience, the several major life decisions moving countries selling a business.Is starting things and that desire to know the outcome for hand, and the agony and try to make the decision from your what, turn out to be bad decisions retrospectively.
But with Sydney with good stories, do you have a take away from that?Something that next time you need to make a major decision?However, those experiences influenced how you think about this?Yeah, it's called one it's scary but it's extremely enriching to do them.
And and I'm very happy that we have you know moved and made the decisions we have made when when we had an opportunity once to go to South Africa country that you know, very well and we've listed the plus and minuses on a really on an Excel sheet about different options that we had.
And And South Africa, really, you know had a lot of pluses boat from the work perspective as the life perspective.There was just that one - that was the security.And so whereas the balance was like if you purely made it a metrical melons it wouldn't it wouldn't add up or it would add up going there.
Definitely, no questions asked we're going but because there was that that big - about feel security.We didn't do it and that was a very calculated choice and that's how we ended up going to Sweden, but that the Swedish calculation didn't work out either, you know, security was very high.
But so I think after that, we've more taken things more from a gut feeling, and from seeing, let's just go for the adventure and thinking of it.Now, I wouldn't do it any differently.
And as an advice to people is if you're if you're thinking that that's what you want to do, you know, I want to go and and go to Australia, I want to go and work in Europe or in New Zealand or wherever whatever you want to do.Do it now because by the time you've thought about it too long.
It won't happen, it will just not happen.That's exactly what I was wondering.When I listen to your story is, is that the takeaway is, don't turn agonize.So much, don't overthink it.And I like the addition about the, the South Africa decision is the takeaway from this, unless there's a major reason.
Like, I'm scared, I'm going to die.That's what have a decision in it.They don't agonize about it so much because really, what do it?And what's the worst that can happen and then see it as an experience?Or said, well well I have decision-making about what to undertake.
I have two questions that I've set my expectations differently in terms of rather than saying.Well, this is gonna be a massive financial success.What it's going to look like this and this and this it has to just be two main criterias.What am I going to learn from this?Am I going to learn from it?Don't even know what I'm going to learn something from it and what relationships are going to build from this?
I get a meet people or make, is it going to be good for my relationship with my wife or my family?And if those two things tick the boxes, then that's enough to make a decision and go.Well, let's try this.What's the worst that can happen?Is, it doesn't work.And then we make a new decision instead of one thing.It's almost like with the decision to specialize, which I'll come back to you, try it, and if it doesn't work, then stop it.
Do something else.Yeah, but that is, that's exactly it, you know?And, and I think in those, we I've always looked at, you know, is there any major detrimental factor which in the South African one would be the would be the danger that we considered.
It's not.We would have probably done it if we didn't have a kid and then just go for the experience.But otherwise we just go and I remember when we took up the position in Sydney it was a there was a lot of unknowns lots and lots and lots of unknowns and we said well well actually get Abby said, because Gabby wanted to go to Australia from from the moment.
She was a kid and she said, well, if that doesn't work out, at least, I've least.I've been to that country.And I've and I've seen that and I've ticked that box.And then then we look further.I think there's moments in your life as well where that decision making can change and what I see.
Now, having a 12 year old in the house.Is that the last move we now made going back to to Australia from Germany.Definitely the last one we will make for another while along a long while because I also want to provide some stability to a teenage boy that since he's been born.
It has actually seen pretty much every side of the globe that seen many of the Seven Wonders of the World, which is a fantastic experience from him.They speak several languages there.
I mean their development is fantastic like but it comes at a cost for them as well and now is the time to actually give them some stability and that would be a major factor.I think whatever opportunity would come our way now to say to say no we're not going to do it but otherwise I think Hobart whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
It's a very cliche saying but it is it is True it is true.Whatever doesn't kill you eventually makes you stronger and and it develops your vision on things.It develops your mind and body.Maybe not always so much because you get tired from its as well.
But but it does you know, it does develop your view on things.So Denis you you mentioned.Your wife is a double boarded specialist, so ACC and medicines and you no slouch yourself.Self your also double boarded specialist right?
You your surgeon and dentist.Is that correct?Yes, that's fascinating lady.I'm very curious always about drive by Professional Drive and Korea the drive to do well.And then it's interesting that you made the comment that there's more to life and I listened to your background like it sounds like for a long time was there anything more to life for you guys and just career.
No, no there there and I don't really know how it came to that, you know, because first of all, I was a very bad student.When I was in high school and I've been, like, I've been kicked out of schools and I was a problematic and make child.
So for me, to probably have gotten the all the academic tick boxes.That one And have now is quite surprising and I would never have thought it myself, but I feel that once you well as well as well in vet school, I did my first year three times because I couldn't be bothered the first year and then I got quite sick in the second year during the exam period.
So I failed and I had to I was given the opportunity to do it a third time and then I got going and then I just been flying through it.I think I found my find a way of going and then from wanting turned into another, I did some private practice and then was a bit frustrated about not being able to finish up my cases.
And I thought, okay let's I'd rather know a lot about a little and a little about a lot and ended up going back to Academia, to do a residency and the night.And then in order to do my Residency.I needed to do a masters.
That was the, that was the game.So I did a masters and, and I got the opportunity to do a PhD.So, why not do a PhD, you know, whilst you're busy, just go ahead after the residents here with the residency and then you just keep on.I don't know what it is.
Then you just keep on going.You just, you just keep on, keep on going and with Gaby, I think it was the same like you. you're just having that that hunger to know, and that thing about the more, you know, the more you share, Which is that is what has probably driven me or definitely driven me to go for the dental boards.
And now to be honest, I didn't do a full residency for the Dentistry board's because I was part of the initial Pathways where based on my credentials, I was allowed to have access to the exams and but I still did.
I set the whole Dentistry exam.So I had to study D for all.And I had to go over all the papers and I had to do the Practical exam and everything like that.So I wasn't given the thing for free but I just had access to the exam and in a way it doesn't change what I do on a daily basis.
It has definitely broadened my knowledge on the subject because I studied stuff that I would never have studied otherwise but the main driver I had for doing that was the ability for me to then officially trained someone.So it hasn't been for my own clinical thing.
Whereas when I studied for the boards for the surgery, boards and passed, the Specialists are, which I both have a national spot, satin boat a national specialist degree in Belgium, and then the European boards that was mostly for myself.
Like as I want to be a surgeon, I want to be a specialist surgeon.The Dentistry is different.My goal was to, okay.I see I have an interest in dentistry.I am recognized as part of that group.Now I want to take the opportunity to formalize that so that eventually I will be able to train people and give other people the opportunity to become specialists in that field.
That was my only driver.So point is Hubert, there needs to be a drive indeed.It.But the drivers are not always the same, if that makes sense.That's a great answer.The thing I often think about and at for selfish reasons, or for personal reasons and then looking at other people early, on in their career is finding that balance between the desire for better or being better at your job having more opportunities through as you say become a specialist surgeon or to teach somebody else.
But balancing that also with stuff, we talk about all the time is giving yourself a little bit of a break, whether that is a physical break or, you know, just don't be so hot so tough on yourself and finding that balance between being lazy and, and still being motivated.
Person versus somebody who's just go, go, go, go, go.And never actually has the time to have a life, as you said earlier.Was that a something you ever struggled with?Or did you manage that earlier?On what have you learnt in that regard through this, massive journey of the two of you to Jerry's all that one that I can't even imagine that.
Yeah.Plus, you know, plus all the international moves in and two kids and all of that, you know, and some some other professional challenges that we have taken up both of us or engagement in college activities and all these things that you that you take on and that you always Yes.
To the thing is that for so many years, I don't think we had an idea that there was anything else and that's that was just our life.When I was a resident / assistant professor in the edge in Belgium, you know, we would have 80 to 100 hours work in the clinic we can.
Then when we be at home, we'd be making presentations or writing articles or doing things I can remember A days where we'd finally go driving to family for a weekend.And I would be sitting in the back of the car was Gabby was driving correcting exams in the back seat and that, but that was just live.
That was just if you don't know anything else then you know, that's how it is and would I do with any differently, probably.Not because it has worked for many things, and, and it has brought me a lot of Let's a lot of friends, a lot of contacts around the world.
It is brought me many, many places, and done, many, many great things but the thing I'm looking more at is that it's not a way.You can continue your old life and I've always been mostly afraid that once I turn whatever age, I will be that I can physically not have the same way.
Work pressure that I don't know what else to do.You know that?I that I just don't know.And so now I'm more and more trying to build in other stuff and have other interests, that develop, but unfortunately, most of these interest would remain quite work related in some way, anyway, or Veterinary related or work-related.
That's the tactic that I had a conversation last night with an old I saw an old University friend first time in two decades and talking about people's career Journeys and how it went.And we had another friend with us, who's from it from a different University?
And in that conversation, we realized that at our vet school or at least at the time when I was at our faculty in South Africa, there was a culture.They of Bad science.So the study we were doing that's one part of life, but when we not doing that then we categorically not doing that.
So if we had a party or we were camping, or we were going for a run or something like that, it was not the done thing to talk about anything, vet related, which I think was really good for setting the standard for, for a balanced life for having that surgical in size of this, between there's work there is alive.
Keep the two apart.Don't mix it.And really Good for building resilience and we're getting through, tough periods.I can work really hard but it's okay because when I'm off I'm off there's a good training ground for that.But I do sometimes wonder whether it was also to the detriment of my own and maybe other people's potential potential, they career potential because I had that I was, I was coming out of uni.
I had such a very, very strong division between life and work that I went well outside of my work hours, I don't actually I did almost no CPT for a start, which is Not the best for a while because I just made our own.What?I'm not working.I don't want anything to do with work and the idea of studying for something that that was.
I couldn't even fathom that.Now, I'm middle-aged.It looking back at my career and I went, what could I have done and I meet people like you and all these incredible people.We interviewed you going.I could have done a bit more with my career and I don't know what I've been happier for it or I'd I don't have an answer.
This is why I like to think about this but I I like your answer of it was a short-term sacrifice with the long-term view to say, well yeah, I can do this, but but then I like to do re-evaluating saying but this is not sustainable.I've did, this is what I've been doing.
But being able to then say well, now let's also try have a life as well.Just not just go, go, go all the time.I think the word you're saying that pops in there is trying to have a life because yes, it's damn, it's Damned.
Pickles and you know we've Gabby a knife had clashes of culture in that way because when I said when we were working in the ass and doing the residency PhD and they had these long hours and then we had this young baby was born.
He was in daycare and Gabby would sneak out of the clinic to go and breastfeed him a couple of times a day and we'd leave around 6:30, 7:00 to go and catch him from the day. care last parents picking up the young child and we feel we feel bad leaving work we had this whether real or perceived perception from colleagues that oh you know now they have a kid they just leave early all the time and like it would be if it was a strange feeling and then moving to Scandinavia in uppsala in Sweden at 3:00 I would have Pole, coming at my office, looking at me and saying Denis, you know, you're young, father, you have a child at daycare, wouldn't it be time thinking for you to pack your stuff and go and you, then, you know, you'd feel bad leaving work from another way you'd feel bad.
In both situations, you didn't really know how to deal with it and it was total opposites where the Scandinavian culture is very much not focused on work.They're very Much about your family and about your children.So in a way in liege we felt we were bad colleagues and we were bad parents as well because our child stayed at daycare.
So long and in Sweden, we felt as well.Like you we weren't up to speed because we did leave early or we you know that it's it was a strange thing to have those differences.But on the other hand like you say, you had this clear division As a student between, you know, being a vet and not one of the things I've, I've always identified myself as a vet from the first of January till the 31st of December.
And having that disconnect is very, very difficult.And again, my Scandinavian colleagues to a certain extent, used to be much better at that.To a point that it would annoy me and Gabby sometimes because they, they would leave on Early days and they would still be patients in our care for which we would not necessarily have all the information and then we would call them in the weekend during the evening or this and that to have a bit more information on a certain patient and that wouldn't be received well because they were off, they were off.
So yeah.It felt strange to not being there for your patience anymore.And I'm not saying they're all like that but that's the experience that we've I've had there was a culture that was the culture, and on the other hand, now I feel we are never off work.
Like we're never, I can't, I don't think I'm ever off work.And that also goes with certain roles that you take up.I'm Clinical Director of the hospital where I work.Now, I used to be head of a department in Sydney.We used to be head of a clinic in Germany last year, and you have that feeling that even though you're on.
Holiday, even though you're not on call or you have a weekend, you still need to be accessible.Get that?Hey, that's not without consequence, right?No, and that is more.I feel that is more draining for me than to say, I'm going to do a hundred hours a week and I'm gonna write papers and I'm gonna do presentations, and I'm going to just do cases, but then I'm going to have 24 hours where I can.
Close the iPhone, I can be of this world but the fact that things just keep on coming, from whatever angle, I find that much more draining than anything else they need.Except that's one of the main reasons why I decided to sell the business.
I had because I found that and I had very supportive team like they were happen if it's being interviewed them.They'd say yeah, they had a bus that took so much time or for camping trips and family trips and because As my Gulf built the business to be like that.
But what annoyed me that I'd be in freaking Valley holidays, my family, and I'd be in the serve where I want to be in my happy place.I'd sit there worrying about some compliant, complaint that I know I'm going back to or some staff issue or like that, I don't have staff.
And that I've just drained me drain me to the point where I was like, I had a great business but it made me very unhappy.I couldn't actually well, I couldn't I could cope Is it?But I felt like I didn't want to have certain, that's not how I wanted.And I admire people who are good leaders and have that ability to separate to go out.
Yeah, I've got less to worry about, but what about it at the right time?If you have you gotten better at that?Or is it something you still learning?I'm probably better at it than I used to be but but indeed what worries me most for the moment is it's not my patients or it's not the veterinary part of it.
It's Lord a human.Source, part of it, and the management part of it that keeps me awake.And that keeps me ruminating and and it is one of the things that we actually told about initially having this podcast is about how kind or unkind, we are four for each other within the profession and that is potentially, what keeps me, awake mostly, so it's not the real, it's not the real Veterinary thing.
That pressurizes me the most, it is the human nature of the game that I would say.I suffer, I suffer the most of quick Interruption for some exciting news.You have heard me talk about our clinical continuing education podcast in smallest medicine, surgery and emergency and critical care that all live at VV n dot super cars.com.
Now, we are thrilled to announce that we're expanding the range with a brand-new higher level surgery podcast.For vets who are studying for the Australian New Zealand College of Ed surgeon surgery, memberships, or anyone doing a surgery internship or residency or just anyone wanting to really take their surgery knowledge to the next level.
We partnering with surgeons, dr.Brown with fulgor, dr.Kristen and dr.Mark Newman.All amazing surgeons and more importantly.Excellent, teachers and mentors to create a one-year program of content.Based on the Australian, New Zealand College of Ed surgeons membership exam, syllabus As we sticking to what we know.
So it'll still be primarily a podcast with a goal that it can be used as a study Aid or a revision Aid or just an easy way to get stuff into your head and expand your knowledge.While you go about your everyday life, we are also planning Q&A and discussion sessions for subscriber with these speakers of hours.
And as with all the other clinical podcasts, they will be notes to refer back to for revision or reference.It's still a work in progress with an anticipated, launch date late in Fabe or early March.Here.But in the meantime if you want to go on the email list to be notified when we do go live and get more information email us at vet V broadcast at gmail.com and we will keep you up-to-date.
Okay, back to the knee.We talk so much about the difficulties within the profession, the high burnout rates to even the the suicide rates and and we put that on this pressure from the clients.
This pressure from the patient's, The Compassion fatigue, work overload, and all of those things.And nowhere in this discussion I ever hear about how unkind and unsupportive we are to each other's as vets.
In this profession in the first place.And I think like if we started to be more friendly to each other, maybe that would be the start, wouldn't it?Instead of blaming the patients and the clients and for all the dramas that we have unfolding on us?
I think that wouldn't be a bad thing.Kindness always goes a long way.I've fascinated by this.Now we've Kick The Hornet's Nest.Maybe that's great.Let's do this.This.So when you say unkind to each other as wits, what are we, what situations are we talking about?
Or is it multifactorial, are we talking about colleagues within a business?Are we talking about clinics against each other?Are we talking referral vs.Jeep?Where do you see this as a most poignant problem, the way have you experienced that as a big issue I think it's a mix of different things when we treat patients in the first place, as a referral center or, you know, as a specialist, we get a lot of referral things in and I know I have an ethical Duty towards my patients.
And I'm doing what I need to do is, is for my patients. but the person that is sending me that case in the first place for me, is a colleague And ecology ality for me is, is high, highly ranked highly, highly ranked.
And that doesn't mean that when you get stuff from somebody else, you need to cover up.Anything that has happened from whatever happens but you don't throw people under the bus.And and that happens so much.
I feel in our profession about, you know, how He shouldn't have done that.Who Bert?Oh yeah.It comes from Hobart.Yeah, yeah, I know.Now, I know what the problem may be.It is, what has come with my development as well?
As a, as a specialist because I might not have been like that before because we're, I really know that when I graduated from Ghent University in Belgium as a fresh graduate, I knew the truth, like things were black and white and the whole specialist track and every development that Deeds.
If it has brought me anything is to know what, I don't know.So, whatever comes through the door and whatever somebody else has done elsewhere.It's like yeah.Maybe I wouldn't have done it that way but I wasn't in that person's shoes.
I wasn't in that situation at the time I wasn't the one making that decision there with the information and the environment that was a that was at my at my disposal.So I feel somewhere.
We are not very loyal to each other.We're not very collegial to each other in this profession and I hope or.Well, maybe I'm the only one experiencing that and then I'm very happy everybody's picking on the knee.
Yeah, but then that's it.You know, if people don't recognize that I'm very happy if that's not what people feel that if that is what people feel it.Thing.Now I definitely think it's not just the right, it's definitely not just you.I have, I will say that I have also experienced much kindness from Specialists specifically, where I things ended up with them, where did stuff up and they were very kind about it and kept me out of trouble.
By the way they handled it.I've seen it more with the second opinion case, where I as a GP I treat something and then it goes to the other GP, does it know?No, me.And we don't know each other and then the client comes back and says, well, I went to the elevator and there was, they said this and this and now I'm also aware that often the clients might be doing that as a ploy, almost to get their money back or something, and we putting words into the mouth of that colleague, but I have had his forces for sure.
Where that was the case.So how do we make it better?So a from what you're saying, we need to be aware of it, right?We need to when we deal with situations like that it should be.I like that.You say that Front of mind for you is collegiality.Yes there's professionalism.
Yes there's good medicine, but collegiality should be friend of mine.So we think about it is step one, but how do we talk about it?How do you handle that situation?Let's say you get a horse in to you that it hasn't been handled correctly.And the treatment is to change.
You need to do something differently and you need to expand it to the client.How do you explain that?In a way, that doesn't throw the colleague under the bus, but it is not false with false information lying covering us and not unprofessional.Well, I mean, I'm literally looking for descriptive words that you used to do this effectively.
It's very, it's it's very difficult because it's very situational dependent on you know, what has happened or how it goes.But first of all, you try to get the information.Information from the source initially.So if there is you know you know as well that like you just said it could be what the owners report might not actually be what the vet has advised and then we do advise a lot of things to our clients as well.
That never happened.Right?So and well I can remember one from last week again that I saw after the 8 week.Check up where I had advise putting on specific farriery and a Type of bandaging and it comes after 48 weeks and it hasn't it has had neither of these things.
And that's you know, my own case with my own advice where the client has just neglected, the only thing it's comments, come after eight weeks to seeing that the horse is still not better.But how do you want it to be better if you haven't done.What I asked you to do.Yeah.So there's there's that it's figuring out and talking to the colleague directly looking at what have been the Dances in which that happened and often.
When you have that, you start understanding, why the things haven't been done.Like it should have been, you know, we could get horses in that.Have a ruptured stomach that are referred in for colleague that have a ruptured stomach and you'd say why did the vet not put the stomach you like come on, you should put a stomach tube, how you know, this first.
First thing you learn in vet school, put a stomach to come up so you can have that.Attitude.But then when you rang the colleague and you say listen this is what and and that colleague says yeah you know I'm very sorry I was thinking of passing a stomach to but I was in the middle of a field in the mud in the rain with the floods with a 16 year old that was unable to hold his horse with a horse that was rearing up.
The best thing I thought was actually I can't examine that horse here and I can't do the right thing.I need to refer it.Well, that's very valid information that you can bring up with the owner and say why?Because the owners gonna To ask.Why did this happen?Well, you'd say well, ideally indeed.
It should have had a tube but your vet has referred your horse here.Just exactly because of that because he wasn't able to do in those circumstances that he was putting what he needed to do.And so now you're here and yes, your horse has a bad outcome but that is not due to a mistake from your vet that is due to circumstances.
And if you don't know these circumstances, you may make Comments to that client.That Troy your Veterinary bus.Does that make sense?Yeah yeah for sure.Look, I obviously working in emergency for the last decade and some gets a common thing.
It's not a second opinion.It's just that the thing that you colleague saw earlier today, is now much worse and I'd sit at my door and I used to have that Judgment of going to come on you should have fucking just like exactly like the stomach tube situation.Why did you do this or something?
But I've left that because exactly over time speaking to people and getting the full story, there's almost always a story even if it is just I was too busy for us just tired or just you know humans are humans you do Miss stuff, sometimes it is a it's an education issue.So sometimes when you speak to people there is a didn't I don't know.
I'm I haven't seen these guys before and then it's a An educated with kindness.So what we go, this is what happened, it wasn't ideal.These are the things we would normally look out for, but not, but to the client, especially a don't say anything to the client unless they ask.
And when they never Laugh On Us in, emergency laugh and say, well, why didn't my vet X Y and Z?And the answer to me is always just, yeah, keep in mind, it's very easy for me now to make this diagnosis because things have progressed.If I was, your vet eight hours ago, I probably wouldn't have done this Probably would have done the same I couldn't we could have done this in this, but it's very easy for me to say in retrospect.
I'll say it outright.So I'll say by all means, ask them, but I imagine eight hours ago, this was a very different situation, so don't make assumptions.And also I will actively defend the, it's not lie but that defend them for sure.But that is that, that's the difficulty.
I who were there is sometimes, you know, it's a fine line between lying or covering up and defending or being collegial sometimes.Yeah.And like, Like you said, the easiest thing is when you have a client that doesn't ask the questions, it's more much more difficult when when you have clients that ask the answer like dr.
Haydock was there, really nothing else we could have done and and you'll have that sometimes you know you have mean fractures in dogs and cats is with different because you just put them in the back of a car and but I sometimes get x-rays from non-displaced closed non-displaced fractures Or horses come and then they are, they arrived in hospital and everything is open and and comminuted open fracture and you have to euthanize the animal because the vet simply hasn't immobilized.
They didn't bother to put a splinter to put to put a bandage for referral and, and something that could have been repaired.Now, turns out to be unrepairable.And when you then get the question, is there anything more that we could have done?It's sometimes very difficult to Have an answer to that question, but again, that without going into specifics, I think the message for for us as a community is to be thinking about those things whether you're a specialist or whether you re G p--.
And in my mind, the GP is a specialist of its own kind as well.Because I have a lot of respect for GPS because they have chosen the path that I haven't chosen, which is to know.A little bit about a lot of things, a lot of things.
I know a lot about very little but the the thing I would say to GPS is your best knowledge.And your best skill is a good contact book.It's a good, it is knowing where and when your knowledge, your capabilities stop and where that of somebody else start and I have so much respect for those that have that ability, and then call me or another specialist to say, hey, I have this case before sending it to you, what should I do?
I have this fracture and is there anything that could be done?And how should I send it and refer it to you?So it has the maximum chances of still being treatable when it arrives at your referral center.And that's the kind of communication, I We should have as well and that is kindness and collegiality with each other, that collaborative way.
But we are to a certain extent far to commercial as well.In 20, let me treat it myself until I can't do anymore because I'm afraid of losing the client because if I send it to that clinic, it's not going to come back or the referral Clinic.
Oh, I have a case.And I'm not going to say Send it back.So yeah commercials and aspect I'm trying to be self-critical and think of cases that I haven't referred over the years that I should have thought of.It's probably ego a little bit of like well I want to fix this.
I can I want to figure it out.I want to make it happen.Just you know you don't want to give up on a Case until it's too late.And you go, oh shit, I should have just sent this ages ago.That wasn't always fight.I'll get em in the days when I was in the practice owner.I know direct personal financial benefits Keeping it.
I just wanted to fix it and dry stuff and it's of a broad.It's ignorance ignorance as to exactly that, not knowing what you don't know.So, you treat the new blender forward and you do stuff and it starts going wrong and probably with, with more experience.
I now know much sooner when it's starting to go south, I start recognizing.Oh this is this isn't good anymore.With this is beyond me.It's make it somebody smart as problem.So I think it's an experience thing as well.Learning, it's not Not always doing it almost maliciously, any decent and you know, but it is not only that, it's not only from gp2 Specialist or, or vice versa.
It's um, it's also between Specialists or between specialisms and between Specialists.And you know, I've seen that in very much in very many places that it is attitude of.It's my case, it's my case.
So I'm gonna deal with my case.I'm a Jen and I have a post-op colleague, but I will deal with it.I have a specialist in medicine or emergency Critical Care in the house, but I'm not going to ask his opinion because it's my case.So because it's ego.
Yeah, yeah, it's definitely ego-driven.And that is the thing.It is to the biggest skill, is eventually admitting that you don't know and that's damn difficult.Damn difficult.Hmm?And and I am, I am.We much aware of it myself and even then I find it difficult sometimes that I'm like ah you know, I think you just did it again, didn't he?
Yeah.Did you get in?Yeah, I'm sitting here trying to figure out why, why do we do the throwing under the bus thing Aqua?It makes no sense at all.Be like, if I think if you ask anybody reasonable, if I sat down here with another way, then I'd say oh no, no I wouldn't, I wouldn't do that.
That's a dick thing to do yet.We do it all the time and I think Guys, the answer.And I'm going to say this, maybe people think about this and they might be offended, but ego in two ways you're either doing it because I feel so shit about myself that I need to put somebody else down the colleague, whose patient I'm seeing, I need to put them down so that I feel better and look better, which is really toxic or I think so much of myself that I think I'm the only one with the Bandit opinion and I'm the only one.
Who knows what to do is equally equally shit, isn't it?I don't know.I'm Sure, there's more to it, but that's what I get to now it, maybe if you think about it, that way to go before, I bad bout that client before.I say that, snotty comment to my nurse even about the comment, never mind the client, trying to look at.
Why am I, why am I about to say this?What is it about me?That makes me feel like I need to put down somebody else.Well, if you're in the latter category of the one that, you know, think so highly of himself that he's the only one.That's right.I think you can't be held you.
And and I I truly think that that category does exist but it's a very small proportion.I think mostly when I make bad decisions, I make these decisions is because I mean, an area where I am insecure about myself and in the areas and the domains.
I know my shit when I really know my shit.I am much more amenable to actually accept that, I don't know.If that makes sense. 100% makes sense. 100% make sense.
Yeah.Well, it's because you know, you know, enough to know what you don't know.That's that's what I'm learning with emergency.The more I learn about emergency, the more I go, oh, I was a fool for the first 10 years about this particular thing.Like, I thought, I knew, and I just, I just didn't know.And that's because you're hanging on so much onto the only truth you have available.
And the more, you know, about a subject and the more experience you have in a subject, the more you realize there is no such thing as black and white.And there's so many Shades of Gray available even more than 50, that that's your.
Look at the thing in a whole different way.And so when it doesn't really fit with your box, your much more able to say, yeah, maybe maybe not, maybe it could be, or it could not, And sometimes that has actually clashed myself them back into my face because people come after as a third, fourth fifth opinion, they come to a specialist and they really have that expectation that you're going to solve the problem.
And here they are meeting these Specialists, that is scratching his head saying oh yeah, maybe maybe not and they look at you like Aren't you the one that's supposed to know and you're you're like you're like no and then they come back and they say, but my vet that I saw there, he knew what it was like.
Well, if he did, you wouldn't be here, would you?So I think the large proportion of people that have that is more about insecurity about their own Black-and-white knowledge or lack of perspective and again I say it again, The more I've gone down the track of development of self development.
The more I realized that there are so many things.I don't know the knee.So we've talked about the probably the most easy scenario for most of us myself and most of our listeners who are mostly going to be GPS or non-specialists.Is that thinking of which could talk about practical way?
Be more kind to each other.Is the specialist being kind to the referring weight or the second opinion being kind to the first opinion with, do you see the other way around, right?Basically, the I think my question is, how should our should GPS be kinder to specialist?
I do you get scenarios like that as well, where people burn you, even as the specialist?Wait, yeah.I mean, it goes both ways and then like it goes in between Specialists as well.As although I think that between Specialists, I feel there's less of that because most of us or most of us that have been specialist for a while do realize that yeah, I can see it as well from from the perspective of GPS I can think of a recent case that we have a You know, a mayor coming in with a dystocia and they send it in, you know, obviously to get the Fallout hopefully it's alive.
It is sent in as being mentioned, it is alive on referral but stuck, you know, so has to come out and I'm so proud of my team because in about 22, it was 23 minutes.I saw the float coming on the parking and I looked at my watch.
And when I looked at the watch again, when they were received, Attempting to resuscitate the fall, it was 23 minutes later and I thought I was an amazing effort from the team meaning.There had been a specialist team from reproduction trying to vaginally deliver.
The, the mayor there was anesthesia that was putting the horse down.There was a surgical team with the whole abdomen clipped and washed and prepped and a surgeon gown to be ready to do a C-section which She didn't need to happen because they invite vagina Lee delivered.
And then the ECC team medicine, resuscitating the fall and the owner got a bill for three and a half thousand for that, which is ridiculous, money, ridiculous, low, low money.I hope you.I hope you're being ridiculous low.
That what you mean by ridiculous?Yeah, it's ridiculously low money for what has happened.Yeah, and she complained, it was too expensive and her Jeep.Backed her up in that.It said, yeah, this should have charged this and you know, why did they resuscitated the fall?
They try to resist it the fall and and things like that because it was dead.And, you know, well then don't send it in, you know, then we don't.So my whole proudness of my team fell apart by these comments from the clients and then this backing up of the GP, mostly that I, that I would have hoped and expected.
The gp2 To to say ya know, that's the way it is.And actually, you know, I were you I would have expected the bill to be twice as much or more for what they did and what they tried but but that wasn't the case.So it goes both ways.
Yes it's importing The Specialist and I think again that comes from a lack of understanding, having been on both sides of that of that spectrum is again an emergency.That's a common thing.You guys Overture happy that you there but emergency clinics over, charge the charge, you might Why is that twice as much?
I could do a C-section for X.You do it for 2x.That doesn't make any sense.That's just that's just gouging.That's, that's unethical that gets bandied about, maybe not directly to the client, but certainly gets said behind hands.But the thing is, I have been the Jeep evaluate with their lack of understanding.
So I used to, we used to get patients back from the University and see those bills and go.Ah, It could have done that because I'm the whole surgery for what you guys spent on just stabilizing the thing.That's ridiculous and I've never been, I've never been enough to say to a client but it certainly bothered me and I certainly bitched about it to my colleagues, but it was lack of understanding.
Not, not understanding the economics or the other servers, the level of service as you say.Well, you know, one of the things that I've sometimes thought about because I've had friends and, you know, good friends that graduated together with me and that directly wouldn't into private practice and now have a bank account. 20 year later, that is much much bigger than was helping my nose.
That's much healthier than mine and and I have one that just sold his practice in Belgium and to a corporate and, you know, he's Worked, he's worked damn hard, he's worked damn hard and I give it to him.Like, I'm very proud of him and I, it's whatever.
Don't get me wrong, and what I'm saying, but I look at what he's built, commercially and what he got for it and then I am there, 20 years later with all my titles and all my education.And I have none of that.And when I try to charge more because I'm a specialist and that people come to me for my advice, they don't want to pay for it, like they don't want to Effort because they don't see the difference and somewhere.
That's a bit of a kick in the nuts.It's a kick in the nuts.It could have to do with my ego again, but then again, I never did what I did for the commercial aspect of it or for the financial aspect of it.
But it's a bit disappointing.And and this is also a very difficult discussion because this comes Like in the human field, if you go down the path of Cardiology or surgery, or whatever, the guy that set beside you in college is and that didn't go down the specialist, track is not allowed to do what you're doing.
But everyone that is out there that hasn't followed a specialist track is actually allowed legally technically to do.Exactly the same thing that we do.And in Belgium, you also had that unkindness in financial competition.
I don't know how exactly this here in Australia in that sense, but you had a lot of GPS going and doing art rasca, peas in horses for, for no money, like, no money because they just thought it was fun and they would do it, did have a little backyard or, and they drop a horse in a recovery box and they just do and have a bit of fun and dramatically undercutting the price and taking Way the bread and butter for more specialist, centres, and that's also unkindness to the profession that is also unkindness and disrespect towards other people that have put in a lot of efforts and personal sacrifice into obtaining, those credentials and this development and level of skills and knowledge to perform a very limited number of Acts because bye.
Taking that away.You know they're also taking and undercutting the price from me, for me.It's I also consider that and collegiality if I hope you see where I'm coming from, I am it's a bloody pulp for me because I've never thought of it like that because the odds are I like to always look at the motivations of why people do things.
The, from the perspective of the guy, undercharging, it's either going to be economically driven.So that's a that's not a noble Drive.Ever, but I'm going to undercut each.I can do more so I can make more money and you don't get the money or as you say, they're doing it out of a curiosity or sometimes from what they see, even what they believe and what is to some degree as a service to go.
Well, these things need to get done, not everybody can afford specialist bills, and I signed up to fix animals, so I'm going to fix it at a price that I think people can afford, so they come of it.Come, I've certainly done that where you come at it from a place of What I think is heroic almost but I've never considered it that I'm actually being a dick to the person who is really skilled at doing it and charges a decent price for it.
There is an aspect of that.I've never actually considered thank you for pointing that out.Well, the first thing you learn is that I don't always consider myself a specialist.I'm just a trained surgeon, you know, with all respect to people.When you graduate from vet College, you're not a surgeon.
And I mean, You're not trained to be doing surgery in, in all these things, like we are miles apart from Human specialization and in Veterinary, specialization I think in small animals.
Yes, you have more of those people that will focus on the left stifle, right?And that only do surgery of the left stifle, but I go from an abdominal surgery to an upper Airway to an arthroscopy to a fracture fixation to pulling a a tutu doing that.
Like I'm a trained surgeon, that's what I am.I'm not.Yes I have Specialists credentials but I have learned how to do this and the difficulty sometimes as a special Easter as a trained surgeon.
Is that anybody that graduated together with you has the same rights and the same possibilities of doing what you do without restrictions.And without having had that training, if the, if that makes sense, I would like to troll this scenario at you.
If you have some joint feel like your knees hurting, you just went running and your knees hurting and you go to your GP as a first instance.And lovely lady.She's your GP, like she's fantastic, and she's very good and she examines you very well and she said, well, your knee seems a bit puffy there and and you may have a meniscal tear and stuff like that, and she shouts to the background to, to her husband that helps her in the practice and see said, John, could you clean up the kitchen?
Because we're having an arthroscopy this afternoon.I think you'll run out very quickly even with your sore knee, but this is reality.Yes, it's reality in our profession, it's changing for sure.I'm ABI the circles where I move in but I did, I do feel it, I'm sure it still happens.
And sometimes it happens through necessity because you are the only weight or forever as a patient, Australia is.So you do it in the kitchen or it doesn't Done and you do your best edit but I think the younger generation are much more prone to going.
Well if there's better available I'm going to offer better if they don't accept better while then I do my best I have.Did you agree to do feel like oh is that, is that a smallest thing?Again, you still have a lot of that going on in a quiet.I think you have much more of that going on in, equine, and even much more of that going on in farm animal, which is a good thing.
Because exactly, as you say, you have to look at the circumstances as well.And if you're a human doctor in certain, and I don't like to use the word third world countries, but less or as the who says it countries with restricted, medical resources.
This Might still be the situation as a GP human as well.Right.It could be exactly there.And that's that's what you're gonna get and I always say if I go out on a trip in Bush Australia in the middle of nowhere first equine facility is at 24 hours truck drive and I have a horse with colic that has a surgical diagnosis that needs to be opened.
Then the only thing is I have is a Swiss knife and some baling twine.I'll get some hot water and let's open it because that's the best chance that animal there here and there will have because if I don't do anything it's dead and it might die with my intervention as long as I can.
Humanely help that animal.I feel I have a duty to do it but if I am in Center Sydney and I have a hospital at 20 minutes drive that same approach is Acceptable.Yes, and you're bailing twine is not as attractive anymore, right?
Exactly.Exactly.But yeah, I don't know how we got into that now.No no that's called I'm almost like he could get there was it's been a good journey but I think it's very eccentric not discussed this before and I've not actually thought about it that much and in the way that you express it I think it's a vital conversation.
Guidance to kindness to colleagues is how we got into this and we're talking about how what is kindness look like in.This is a kind of And collegiality that I've not that's it.Thank you for bringing that to my attention.The other thing I taught I we had talked about that.
I wanted to discuss with you was the concept of Happiness.Hmm.I have it written down.What does it bring up to you?What is happiness for you?Oh, that's a question and we're talking.So I always I'm always mindful this podcast is for vets but I will also humans because I often try Try to Define what the weight belt is and in summary.
Why do we do the vegetable?That is and I sometimes struggle with their correct way is that is to help veterinarians create ex kind of lives around the vision degrees.But what's the word for the x is thriving, sustainable?And really the grid that I always want to start with is Happy careers, we want vets to be able to build a happy careers and lives around division degrees, but I don't use happy because what does happy look like?
What does happy mean?It's such a slippery term.What does happy mean?For me.I think it's an individual thing.I think it depends on your values and so what's important to you?What does happy mean for you.So I for Basically, it is autonomy.Peace of Mind.
Peace of mind for me is a happiness, right?So I could be like I said when I was serving in Bali in the in my happy place I wasn't happy because I didn't have peace of mind many times.So how do I achieve that?Now?That's the question.Why just what does happy look like to Denis?
Yeah, happy is the same thing.You know, for me is Happy is exactly like you say it's being in that happy place where you feel safe, where you feel loved where you feel respected, maybe where your, where your ego is brushed in the in the right direction, but above all, I think for me, happiness is reality - expectations.
And I don't know where I got that same from or wherever it has been, but it has stuck with me for a long time.Long time, and it has proven to be a very valuable definition when I feel unhappy and that I look actually at what.
Actually, we're my expectations of the situations and how that materiality and very simply you can apply that in a lot of situations.If you whether it is you go to a restaurant and, you know, you have the most fantastic dinner you've ever had.
And You'll go away and you talk to family and friends about it and you just go and make something out of.It was just the most fantastic place you've ever eaten.And then sometime later you go back there.And it's so disappointing.
It's not.And the thing is the same and it's still a fantastic restaurant.But your expectation of it has changed very, very much and is very different than the reality.And the re but the reality hasn't changed and so all of a sudden you're not happy with the same situation.
So when I am in that situation where I feel, I'm not happy with this.They know I think, you know, what was actually my expectation compared to the reality.And this is a thing that is also when we were initially talking about, you know, our journey and and Gabby, and I looking more at at life than work.
Now, Every move we have made before this one, or before the last one we did Back to Australia has always been for work reasons.When even though it was Belgian, when I moved to take up my residency in.
Yes, University it was for work.When we move to Sweden for work to Copenhagen for work to Sydney for work, back to Germany for work, but when we decided to come Back to Australia.The driving reason was life saying, we want to live in Australia.
We want to settle our family and develop our family in Australia and although work is an integral part of our life work comes, second.So now the drama's and difficulties I encounter at work.
Are not any different than they have been anywhere else.But I can I'm much more happy about it because it doesn't Define my expectations of life as much anymore as it used to before.
Does that make sense?Yeah.So did you change your expectations of what work should be or what it should look like Story?The nice story of what work should be?Yes.I have changed my expectations of and it's a very bad thing to say or very arrogant thing to say.
I don't know, don't please anybody that listens, don't take this badly but I've changed my expectations of what I can expect from people around me, very, very much, very much.And I've realized, I am not having the same expectations anymore from people.
I have, I've had And that means that I'm much less disappointed in what happens or what doesn't happen and that I can't have the same expectations for them as I have for me.So those expectations have dramatically changed and that makes me much calmer and much happier in a way.
I think it's very wise.I don't think there's anything offensive in that.I've seen people struggle with it.I think this is one thing.I am fairly good at For a long time.I've have realized that humans are very human.So whether we're talking about my colleagues, my client, my kids, my friends, I appreciate that.
Humans are amazing and we also very self-centered short-sighted, we can be both as the example taneous lie.So I don't get upset by clients.You know, it's a big thing.In our profession complaining about clients, they don't bother me because I expected from Them.
I expect that.Well, we're going to get emotional about these sort of things, and that's human nature and it's not my fault.So I'm not going to get upset because you being rude or something like that because it's half-expected.Also realizing that and there's a risk in that because if you expect that all clients are going to be difficult to grab be, then you probably going to have it the wrong attitude going into your interaction.
So, so I'm trying to rephrase that I go into interactions with humans expecting the best of it to some degree.But also being aware that it's unlikely to always be the best job and surprised when it's not great.So I go in there with the right attitude.
I expect that we got to be friends expect, it's going to go well, but partially also expecting that at some point.It's going to fall apart.I mean, that works in your marriage that works.It works and everything works with your colleagues II.Don't when I ran, the, the hospital, when I had a team and you deal with other managers who get really angry when something isn't done, right?
You know this, somebody forgot to do this.The nurse didn't do this, one of the weights in the collected this and they get really upset about it and almost take it personally and want to have a Witch Hunt about it.And repercussions, and I was always like, now, we went to deal with it, we've got to educate and re-educate, but I'm not surprised because I'm working with a bunch of humans, and sometimes they come in with a headache and sometimes they didn't have enough sleep, and sometimes they just don't give a fuck, because sometimes humans, just don't give, but it's unsurprising.
Yeah, it is it is it is it's just human nature and that is it's one of the things I have is that apart from my Veterinary Development Career, I have been very lucky boating or in several places like in Copenhagen I did a lot of leadership development courses, I had the personal coach when I was in Sydney that you know helped me navigate.
It true the system.And I did a lot of personal development there as well.And so, I've had opportunities a lot to develop myself as well from the managerial and personal aspects of things, and where I have both discovered a lot about myself and a lot about uman nature, and I actually, I find I find human nature.
Very, very fascinating.And I find Myself sometimes very fascinating because in my whole mindfulness journey I have.Sometimes what I see what I see is that I'm much more aware of what I think and how I feel.
And sometimes I have this conflicting thing inside and people are going to think I'm crazy because I'm admitting that I have two voices in my head.So I should be internalized and somebody should call Balance cement, pick me up here and get the white jacket with the hands crossed behind, but I hear that other voice saying, why are you saying that?
Why are you doing that?So, I am much more self-aware than I used to be much more and I think that fits into the mindfulness team.Think there's a tie-in with your expectations of other people are based on your mindfulness and the realization of your own nature of your own human nature.
So It makes it having mindfulness it yourself.It makes it much easier to be kinder and gentler and more, more forgiving of other people.Because you realize that my wife and I always joke because we always have this thing that when we meet other people, you have dinner with a couple of something and you start to get to know each other and each other's intricacies and Oddities.
And then of course, we always right.When we, when we discuss it together, we were like we have all the right ideas like that, but we joke about it because we know that to they probably At home talking about how crazy we are and so that realization that we're all crazy.You know, own special ways is crazy and messed up and but yet also amazing and full of potential is a big realization for me personally.
Yeah, yeah, but it is also like I said, human tried to put things into perspective like you say why people do certain things or they don't do other things.I can remember one of our Our technical staff lately complaining about.
We've put these big containers outside for the interns to put in reflux into.So it can be you know, not thrown into into the gutter and contaminate the good but just being disposed of in a more proper way.
And one morning, they found the containers full till like just a deer like you would like to have your beer feeling.Adjust field are very very top end.And he went like, ah, I don't like you.
I'm not gonna repeat the words, he said, but he wasn't very kind to them.And, and I reflected on it and I said, you know?Yes.Right.But do you remember, these guys are how many hours these guys do on a day and on a week and you know, how they go about it and when you're in the middle of the night, trying to deal with all this, SP these patients and and running around, you're not in the same state of mind.
So these are all very smart people that do very stupid things because of circumstances because of circumstances and if you house for a moment and think of that you can't get upset, you say okay, we need to find another way that is That is more idiot-proof if I may use that.
Yes.So this doesn't happen again with the chance that it will happen again, even with a more idiot proof system, recognizing that it is not these people being stupid but just the circumstances that lead them to acting the way they are acting and that will work for 99% of people.
There's a subpopulation of people that may just be stupid or may have other Come stances attenuating circumstances Alicia's is this Obsession of this malice?Yeah yeah.Yeah.There's a lot of things but and I think it's important to exaggerate why we talk about this because I think it's people that people can misunderstand it as saying, well, you should just let other people off the hook and let them get away with stuff and not be accountable for things.
No, no, no, no, no, that's not what we say.We do this for ourselves because you It's just still need to do the things you need to do, but you can do it without being angry all the time.Because if you it because you have those expectations, you just got to be angry and you're going to do a worse job of it.
Yeah.And that's, you know, that person that's done that I will still questioned them and still asked him, why did you do that?Like, look at this, you know, why do you think this is okay?But I will not eat myself from the inside and thinking, like, how, how stupid can you be or whatever, you know, this kind of Self-destruction and because I'm trying to find a way to understand why people came to that decision or that thing that they did and sometimes at it sometimes I can't find why can't five why people do certain things and then I get upset.
I think I just realized how I learned this lesson, how this became a thing for me with my firstborn child.I did all the reading about sleep training and books and you know as well prepared as scientific about this.
And I had this expectation that when I follow the right steps that my baby will sleep through the night by about 3 months, 6 months, whatever.And they did do it.Of course not.He would sleep through the night for a little bit and then something would change and I would investigated like a clinical case, why is it at sleeping?
I've got to find the solution for this and my mindset around that way.Still that expectation.That my baby at this age should be sleeping through the night.Made me really, I'm happy.I was angry at my child for not sleeping through the night because my expectation was that you should sleep through the night because I'm doing all the right stuff.
So why the fuck ain't as me?And where I am?And it took me the second child to realize, let go of that expectation.Sometimes babies don't sleep, when we don't know why, it doesn't make any sense.Extrapolate that to you.But that's a little human extrapolate that to an animal to you, but same thing.
Sometimes we acted ways that are not rational.If you expect rational behavior from Yuma's all the time, you got to be angry all the time.So let it go.Let it go the expectation.But I hear something else there.You were to hear something else which has come out of many personal development things that I've done and it's coaching together with Gabby and things like that.
Is this inherent Wish for us, males apparently and maybe even more accentuated in those that have a surgical Wisher.Background is the the willingness to fix things and.
So what you've just described to me what I hear there is, yeah, you have that expectation for the kid to be sleeping.And mostly what you're trying to do is fix his sleep, you're very focused on fixing his sleep and you get frustrated because you can't bloody fix the thing.
Oh yeah.And I see that in the relationship.I have with Gabi or when other things as well as I'm often trying to fix things.And there's a very nice YouTube video about it's called the Nail love it.
It's one of my favorite internet memes but describe it and then we'll put it in the show notes.It's just most and any it Salat and describes.A lot of the relationships.We have as husband and wife, maybe or whatever.
At least it did come into my life in that environment.So, you have this, you have this couple having a conversation on a couch and the woman talking about attacking her her headaches and her recurrent headaches.
And the guy is trying to point out to her things continuously continuously and Initially in the video you see the what the woman from just from the backside you don't see her face is here from from behind and she's complaining about these headaches and the guys trying to point out that there is this nail in her forehead and that you know, we could just take out the mail and she's trying to tell him that she just wants him to listen to her.
So it's just yeah.People have to see it and then people will understand, but I think that is also, what frustrates me often is.This is inability to be able to fix it, or to get it done.And that leads to frustration and unhappiness as well, whether it is personal or professional life, though, I love that video.
Of course, I interpreted the point of that video, that that they should just need to remove the nail and things will get better.Yeah.But no, she just wants to have her story but like you and I look at it just get rid of the damn mail your problem will be solved.
Don't moan about it but that's not what she's after.But I mean that thing about, you know, happiness is reality - expectations.I think it comes back in a lot of things, whether it is what we just talked about but also Veterinary business and how you develop your business and if you look at having happy clients and that is, you know, looking at what is there?
Expectation of your service compared to the reality that you can give them and we see it a lot.When when clients are not happy about mostly clients are not happy about communication around the service and the financial aspects and the financial aspects are generally.
Well, if you've been quoted, a thousand bucks for something and it ends up being 1,500, then you're not going to be happy.If you have been told initially it's going to be 1500 and it ends up being 14. 100, you're going to be very happy.If you go into a business and you ask for for a service service, your car and they say it's going to be done at five and you come at five and they tell you oh no we didn't have the time.
It's going to be tomorrow.You're not going to be happy if they had told you from the get-go that the car would only be done tomorrow, you would be happy.So from a business perspective, that equation is also very important in looking at.If my clients are not happy, if I get Comments is that?
Because there is a discrepancy between expectations and reality and an expectation that I have created to them.That I have not met, I've heard the same thing being said about because people talk about the best of Staff, retention crisis.And I don't know if it was a study or just a conversation, but I saw feedback from any graduate glow is at Vision clinics.
One of the main reasons why they leave is expectations not being made.Not that it was too busy or something like that, but they were promised, you can have all this support, you going to have this and this and this and then the reality meant that it wasn't made and then they wanted to leave because they said well I wasn't my expectations would make.
And, and that has been for from an employment point of view in a, in many places that Gabby and I have been and most particularly our last experience in Germany for that big corporate was that the terms under which we were hired where Absolutely not what we got and the job was a fine job in, in a way, but it didn't totally didn't meet the expectations that we had negotiated and then it does become unhappiness.
So I can see where you're coming from when you say, and it's very difficult in trying to attract and retain people because, obviously, when you attract vets, you're trying to oversell a little bit like you.You're not putting an adverb top long crappy hours in crap building meets disgruntled old nurses looking after you and you don't advertise that.
So but I think that the what I see the we have difficulties attracting vets but we have much more difficulties retaining this and that is something.We have much more power to actually do something about than attracting them because retaining them, you're close to them.
The me I could talk to you all day, man.We need to do another.This is a it's very insightful and you've obviously led to love you spider behind your two specializations.You also very wise and I think we need to start wrapping up though.Otherwise we'll be busy for days and days.We will we will.
Let's do the wrap-up.Up questions, we start with that with the pass along question.First, the one we're trying the new thing where I get the guests, ask a question that I need to ask the next guest.So first, we're going to start with the question from one of our previous guests and the question, is this a classic question?
But there's a Twist to this one, which I really like the classic question is, if you were not a vet or innovate profession, what would you have done but added to that is, if somebody comes to you with, It's like that, the red pill, blue pill scenario, take the Red Bull, the other job that you would have potentially done take this pill in, it'll change.
And tomorrow you'll wake up and that will be your career but you will lose all of the experiences and knowledge that you've gained in your veteran career.Do you take the pill?So a what a what is the other career and be would you make that switch?
Yeah, I think I would obviously if you that depends, if you say like would you start from scratch again or would you have the same type of knowledge but in a totally different area.
I think that if I hadn't had such supportive parents that dragged me through and pushed me through my teenage mishaps in high school and And eventually beared with me with my, my initial struggles that vet school, I would have probably ended up in the hospitality environment.
I used to do a lot of work in catering and restaurants, and bars and nightclubs, and things like that.So, as a young 20, ER, I even would do catering services.I would organize dinner parties for people at home and cooking their kitchen and things like that.
So I would definitely have found A nice career likely in cooking or restaurant business or any other Hospitality.But if I was to choose, now I'd probably go in Horticulture Gabby and I used to have a flower business in Denmark, we sold tulips and all sorts of other bulk flowers, as a import business from the Netherlands as a as a sighting.
Was this one?All you a specializing addressing children.You also sell flowers on the side.Yes, yes.Oh wait.No, I was a specialist already but we I was associate professor at Copenhagen University in that time and and we had a little flower business and I really have a passion for four bulbs and flowers.
It's one of the biggest disappointments in Australia.Is the cost of flowers.It's D callously High compared to what it is elsewhere.But I would I would see myself having a life and I would definitely take that red pill or blue pill or whatever pill and have something to do with with the flowers.
That's for sure.I can find peace and happiness, amongst flowers and Gardens and things like that, Sydney smells better than the inside of the horses abdomen, right?Definitely All right, the knee podcasts.
You listen to podcasts and if you do, what should I be listening to I do listen to podcasts.I listen to yours.So you should listen to yourself every now and then thank you.And I do listen to quite a few of them and I'm mostly interested in those that have to do with human behavior.
There is one that I believe somebody in one of your podcasts brought up and it's called hidden brain, which is about.Yeah things that Happened in our brain.He didn't bring which I like a lot.
I listened to the tech talks daily or several from the TED Talk education and these kind of things I listened to one, that's called sexology as well, which is also about obviously about about sex.But also about human and and relation behaviors within that area that I find quite fascinating and interesting.
And then I listened to a couple that would maybe A bee suit you but unlikely are other audiences because they are Dutch spoken from Flemish radio that are more about news facts and also some of about human behavior and human psychology.
So I should give that a try.I wonder if I would be able to understand enough to active, especially if it's complicated Concepts.Probably, probably not quite, but it should be a good challenge.You should send me a link to your favorite one.And I'll see if I I'll give it a make a challenge and mental challenge for myself.
Well, the one that's was my favorite one was his actually, they stopped after 10 years which was called in technical work and our internal kitchen and they were mostly discussing non-fiction books.
And in the nonfiction book series, there was often a lot of Human psychology Behavior but also politics or things like that or historical facts.That would come over.But they've unfortunately stopped after 10 years, but there's still 10 years of material to listen to All right, and then your oh I never asked you.
What's your question for the next guest?But I hope the next guest is someone with a lot of experience and a long career because I would wonder if he or she was to restart its career his or her career as a fresh graduates.
With the knowledge and experience and skills, they have.Now, how do they see the choices they have made being different with that Knowledge and Skills.They have that's a good one, okay?And then the last question the lecture or the event, where you have all the veteran in your grades of the world and they want to know a little bit of advice from dr.
Denis, what is your bit of advice?Hang on, hang on.I don't consider myself the smartest one in the room.Neither this Gabby, if I can allow myself to talk in her place but we kept with it.
We have kept with it and if I compare, we had somebody, I used to go house with as a student in Ghent.And she kept on failing her exams and she kept on convincing herself that she was working hard but she really didn't.
She was just not putting in the hours.She was not putting in the effort.And so my advice there is it's the this Dutch expression that you may know and able to translate better than I can ease.
The arm.How did it wind the on how to his the one that persists will win?Oh yeah, another win in Afrikaans, we call it unheard vain exactly on Halloween and if you and I said it before in our interview is what doesn't kill.
You makes you stronger and again happiness is reality - expectations if you decide to go into Whatever whether it's specialist track and things like that.And your expectation is is that you're going to get it without a fight.It's not going to work.
You're not going to be happy.If you're wanting something, you're going to have to put in the effort and it's okay if that's not what you want to do, it's okay.Everything is okay.But if if there is something you want then it's going to come at a certain price always Always.
Denis, you're an absolute Legend.Thank you so much about some very, very topic topics that we haven't discussed it and you have some incredible insights into it.So thank you.Thanks so much for your generous time.How are you feeling about work for the year ahead?
We started this podcast to help you find ways to make your with the green and create, you build around it, fit with the life you want to live or if that's too ambitious.Then at the very least to make work not suck.And I personally thought that the answers to fulfilling happy carrier as a bit, lay in personal growth and better workplaces, and all of the other non-clinical staff that we talked about which is true, but something that surprised me, when we started doing the clinical podcast was help bigger role that played in my personal enjoyment of work.
And judging by the feedback we get from our listeners.It's a common occurrence.Here's why I think it is.It sucks to feel in the dark with your cases to feel green or Rusty in your knowledge, you feel guilty because you feel like you should know more and you should be learning more but you're also trying to have a life outside of it.
So ongoing learning Falls by the wayside on the flip side.It's a really nice feeling to know your stuff when you get that case to know the answer or if there is an answer to know that it's not because of your lack of knowledge.It's just one of those cases competence breeds confidence and confidence is key.
And our clinical podcast is, the easiest way to work on your competence little bits of growth every week with minimal effort on your part, try it it works.Join our growing community of it felt needs and get your mojo back at VV n dot super cast.com.

Dr Denis Verwilghen