Jan. 2, 2023

#83: Diversity, inclusion and veterinary euphoria. With Dr Kate Toyer and Dr Cam Raw

#83: Diversity, inclusion and veterinary euphoria. With Dr Kate Toyer and Dr Cam Raw
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Season 1

This episode is supported by Animal Emergency Services Tanawha, part of the AEA group. If you're interested in the career opportunity discussed in this episode contact us at vetvaultpodcast@gmail.com to find out more. 

Dr Kate Toyer graduated as a vet in 1995, got married in 1996 and bought shares in a veterinary practice with her partner in 2000. In 2007 she gained Memberships of the ANZCVS in Veterinary Surgery and also the College Prize for her work on developing one of the first interactive online courses with the then PGF. (Sydney University CVE). She and her partner had 3 children, and what looked like the perfect veterinary life. But Kate felt like a fraud because the person living this dream life was a man called Adam. In 2011 Kate told her wife she wasn’t a “normal” guy, and in 2015 she started HRT and publicly transitioned, becoming the only 'out' trans female veterinarian in the world at the time. In 2016 Kate founded Australian Rainbow Veterinarians and Allies, a support and advocacy organisation for LGBTIQA+ people in the veterinary industry which she currently leads. In 2021 she joined forces with Dr Cam Raw to start The Veterinary Kaleidoscope Podcast where they explore the experiences of people from diverse backgrounds in the veterinary world. 

Dr Cam is a Palawa man with family links to the far south of Lutruwita (Tasmania). In the nine years since graduating he’s worked in cattle practice in Victoria, mixed practice in the UK, remote small animal practice in the Northern Territory and now in a teaching and research role in Melbourne. Providing veterinary care and building relationships in remote communities across the Top End have provided pathways to explore his cultural identity in ways he never imagined growing up, and a big focus of his current work relates to Indigenous representation, mental well-being and diversity and inclusion. 

Kate and Cam are the perfect guides through this conversation about inclusion and diversity, including what these terms mean, whether they are the same thing, how the vet profession fairs when it comes to being inclusive, and how we can get better at it. Dr Kate shares her story and tells us about how something called 'gender dysphoria' has parallels in the veterinary profession and how can choose euphoria. Cam tells us about the rediscovery of his own indigenous Australian culture, how his career journey deviated out of standard clinical practice and his work in remote Australian communities, and I get to ask all the questions you've probably always wanted to ask!

Attend the Veterinary Kaleidoscope Summit 2023, Australia's first-ever summit dedicated to exploring diversity and inclusion in veterinary science on 27 and 28 February. 

Increase your knowledge, skills and confidence with our short and sharp highly practical clinical podcasts at vvn.supercast.com. 

 

 

Just a few quick disclaimers about this conversation.I'm fully aware that discussions about gender and race are or can be highly political in nature.This is not a podcast about politics.This is a podcast about the listening to the stories and experiences of other people in and around our profession to see if we can learn from them or maybe find A New Perspective and increase our understanding and empathy towards ourselves and others.
If we have an agenda that we promote on this podcast, It's one of love over fear, however, that manifest itself.I'm also a or people who are smarter than me, tell me that from a psychology perspective, the topic of gender is way more complicated than I could ever hope to race in a single podcast.
This is not a psychology podcast and this episode is not intended as advice for anyone experiencing challenges around, gender pay, Chaser story with honesty and passion, but it's her story and your story is your story.If there is advice in here, then I It's for those of us who have the opportunity to better understand a great space for others.
So let's get to it.But before we get to our episode, I want to start with a little New Year's story or two stories, actually that have absolutely nothing to do with inclusion or veterinary science to welcome you to 2023.I started 2023 with an early morning, serve early, not because I'm actually that kind of person, but because shift work and kids messes with my circadian rhythm and because the birds were I live on many and Loud.
So whether I want it or not, I'm usually up early and also early because Noosa my favorite surf spot is very popular and usually very crowded especially on public holidays and I always love and hope that an early start will award me with the parking spot and it slightly less crowded lineup, particularly on the first of January, I was kind of hoping that hangovers would keep many people in bed for a few extra hours.
So I grabbed a shitty garage coffee and enjoyed the 45-minute drive to get there.Unfortunately, my theory about hangovers an early It's proved incorrect so after an additional 45 minutes of driving around looking for parking eventually.Squeezed into a spot about 2 km away from the car park closest to the serve, except that my intended destination is still about an additional two kilometers away from where I actually wanted to serve.
So instead of a relaxing serve to ring in the New Year, I had a sweaty 4 km slug, the 9 foot long board, under my arm in the water things were just as busy and my station was soured by a battle for waves.And multiple drop-ins on many of the waves that I did actually manage to catch, plus the Raging sweep.
Along the point made it unnecessarily hard just to stay in the right spot.Oh, and that I mentioned that I'm serving a new board which meant that I also messed up the few waves that I did have to myself after just two hours.My high levels of irritation and low levels of Fitness in the de frustrating session made even more frustrating by the additional walk back to the car.
Besides, I had to come home to finish this episode, great start to the new year, right?Right.I started 2023 with an early morning, serve over the years of naturally, become more of a morning person, which means I get to utilize the best part of the day.
Besides, it means I get to wake up with Birdsong instead of an alarm.I grab your coffee from the garage down the road.I'm still thrilled that I can get a half decent cup of caffeine at any time of day or night, for just one dollar and I enjoyed one of my favorite podcasts on the 45-minute drive there.
As expected the parking in new sound of public.Holiday was a challenge.The problem is that the better the sieve gets the Morse case, the parking becomes and the serve was good after a frustrating. 45 minutes.Search eventually found a spot about two kilometers away from the car park closest to the serve.
This meant that instead of relaxing serve to ring in the New Year.I started with a 4 km run, along a path through Coastal Forest that hugs.One of the most spectacular bits of Coastline in the world, just to make sure that I'm nice and warmed up.By the time I hit the water.I spent the next two hours, sharing some near-perfect serve with a bunch of other equally, stuck surface and trying to figure out the quirks of my new board on Long peeling faces running down the points.
Eventually I let the sweep that always accompanies, great surf, at Musa, drag me more than halfway back to the car while taking in one of my favorite views of forest and ocean and mount career in the distance glowing under the first light of 2023, what a spectacular start to the new year and now I get to finish up another episode just for you.
Okay.So those do stories are both factually accurate, that's really how my year started.And all of those things really did happen to me.The first version was trying to establish itself in my head as the truth for a while.Especially when I saw that lack of barking, the only difference between those two stories, our interpretation and intention.
That's my New Year's message to you.Actually, let's call it a New Year's prediction.I won't wish you.Well for the year ahead, I won't tell you to smash it or tell you that.I hope that 2023 is your best year yet because I kind of know how your year will go.Some good things, will happen.
Hopefully surely you'll probably achieve some goals you have days where work is fulfilling with interesting cases and good outcomes.You'll have many wins.You might even make that shot for the rubbish bin with a Hinge cap on the first go, you could fall in love.
Make some money.You might even have a kid, you might get a pay raise, pass your exams.Get that dream job.You will have many things happen to you.That you don't like some of these.Things will just be annoying and frustrating, but you might even experience genuine tragedy.
You'll have crappy days at work with nothing goes, right?Clients will push you.People will do selfish things dumb things that disappoint you maybe even betray you.You'll disappoint yourself.You'll fail, you'll age another year?But if you're lucky, which you probably are, you'll be alive a year from now and you look back at 2023 and you think to yourself that was a good year or that was a sheet of a year.
I hope 20/24 better but the reality is that whether it's a good here or a bad year, depends almost entirely on expectation and interpretation and what you make of it.So my wish for you and for me is that we have the wisdom to appreciate Each moment of 2023 good or bad as a gift and as an opportunity.
OK, back to the episode, let's introduce our guests, dr.Cat toy or inductor camera or both weights and also the host of the veteran Kaleidoscope podcast with explore, the experiences of people from many diverse backgrounds in the veterinary World.Kate graduated from med school in 1995.
Got married in 1996 and board into a Veterinary practice in 2000 with a partner.Thousand and seven, she gained memberships of the a ends at CVS in Veterinary surgery.And also was awarded the college price for a work on developing one of the first interactive online courses, with the then PDF or now the Sydney University cve.
She and her partner had three kids, just your average.High performing veteran e life, right?But there's a big, but everyone thought that the person who was living this life was a man called Adam in 2011, K told his wife that she wasn't a normal guy.
And in 2015, she started HRT and publicly transitioned becoming the only out trance female veterinarian in the world at the time.In 2016, Kate founded, Australian rainbow veterinarians and allies as a support and advocacy Organization for lgbtiq.
A plus people in the veteran industry which he currently leads.And in 2021, she joined forces with dr.Campbell to start the veteran.Kaleidoscope, when Kate isn't working, she like surfing sailing swimming pole.Dancing playing clarinet and wearing a dredge These sparkly and glamorous traces.
Not usually all at the same time though, she has been known to try dr.Cam is Apollo a man with family links to the far south of Lou trivita or Tasmania over the nine years since graduating.His worked in cattle practice in Victoria makes practice in the UK remote, Small Animal Practice in the Northern Territory and now in the teaching and research role in Melbourne, providing veteran care and building relationships, in remote communities across the top end have provided Pathways for him to Or his cultural identity in ways, you never imagined growing up and some of the major focuses of his current work relate to indigenous representation mental, well-being, and diversity, and inclusion, as a whole, and these two are the perfect guides through this conversation around inclusion and diversity.
Including what these terms even mean, like, are they the same thing and if not, how should we approach them?And how does the vet profession fair when it comes to being inclusive?Spoiler alert, we may not be as good as you think we are.And of course, how do we get better at it?
Dr. Kate totally wins.The bad decisions and good stories, question and tells us about something called gender dysphoria.And what it has in common with what she calls.Veteran e dysphoria Camp, tells us about the rediscovery of his indigenous Australian culture, his journey and his work in remote Australian communities and I get to ask all the questions I've ever wanted to ask but I'm normally too nervous to ask just before we jump in we have a sponsor for this episode.
We're going to have an ad but It's a different kind of add it's not for a product or company or a service.We're doing a job ad and it's the easiest add I've ever had to do so far because it's for my job.Well sort of I'm not leaving but where I work need more of me.
See I do my clinical work for animal emergency Australia or AES as most people would know them which is a group of emergency hospitals here in Australia and I work at the Sunshine Coast Clinic which is by Longshot, the a is Branch with the best.Action.And we like the rest of every single business in the world need more team members.
I mean, seriously, what's happened to every wandering covid?Every single industry, I speak to has the same issues.I feel like they must be a few million people.Still stuck in isolation, you haven't heard the news.Then we're allowed to head outside, like they do to hit in the jungle, still fighting his own personal second world war until something like the 1970s.
And one day, somebody's going to discover all these people and be like, hey we have a vaccine, you can come back to work now.But I digress, I would love some new teammates, my bosses are hiring and the giving the podcast some money.Just so I can tell you why you should come work with us because that's the kind of company it is.
But I'll let you listen to Kate and came first and then we'll tell you more at the end of the episode.So if you stuck in a rut you want to move to the best part of Australia, you want to develop your career to the next stage or even if you think that working in emergencies, not for you.But you're open to hearing a different take on that opinion and stick around at the end or if you want to skip that and just find out more about the role.
All, because you've always been curious but something's been stopping until now and shoot me an email at V podcast at gmail.com and I'll personally talk you through your questions.Okay?Now let's jump in with Kate and cam Welcome to Kate and cam to the visual podcast.
Thank you very much.Thank you for having us.Yeah, experience podcasters.It's so nice to have people with decent audio.It makes a difference, doesn't it?Yeah, this is big one.Don't really know where to begin with you guys.
I will confess.I'm actually a little bit nervous to talk about the stuff we want to talk about tonight and I'll tell you why.Is that why?I don't know if you guys have come across.So the nickel podcast that we do where I talk to Specialists about the topics of interest and with that I live with my ignorance.
I go.Well, I'm ignorant about this.I want to ask some questions that can enlighten me and in that, hopefully also Enlighten the people who wind up listening to it.And that's kind of what I want to do yet to in this conversation as well, because I'm ignorant about a lot of these things.
But when I talk about clinical stuff, At least I'm informed and have to know what my blind spots are.Where is it with this?I feel like I'm so ignorant.I don't even know where to begin with a lot of these things and then secondly, when I asked clinical questions it's very unlikely that I'm going to going to offend anybody or trigger anybody and with this I'm worried that not nice pacifically you guys but even somebody listening so I almost want to start by saying that when we talk about inclusion and those sort of a Duro conclusion what are we going to talk about?
How would you guys describe the topics that we want to add?Dress tonight.Inclusion.Definitely, is the term that I would go with.What do you think?And like, I think diversity inclusion is the term that I normally use.Let's put it that way.Yeah, it's interesting.I actually recently watched a TED talk about diversity and inclusion and we often see it lumped together as the one term diversity inclusion.
Almost like one continuous word, but the speaker Rocher Lorenzo from She's based in the US.She was speaking about how Auto sorry it wasn't very sure.Lorenzo is Janet Stovall.She spoke about how it's actually two things that are subtly different where diversity is essentially a numbers game.
And so that's something that we can actually mandate we can have diversity expectations of organizations in my case, I mostly based at the University and so there are diversity targets.For the University sets for themselves and then people can hold them accountable if they don't.
And so that that's where diversity fits in.And then inclusion, is really something that we're all involved in.It's about using pronouns correctly.It's about making people feel included by speaking, to somebody, recently about using their traditional Chinese name, rather than using an English name, that most people would expect of them too.
Quote unquote fit in in Australia, Its little acts that we can can and should always be incorporating into our lives.Yeah, I think sit inclusion inclusion is kind of about the heart in a way.For me, diversity is just about the facts, whereas inclusions, really about the emotion in the heart.
I completely agree that they are different, but, all right, well let's see what we can see what I could learn.And I apologize in advance if I, if I step on land mines but you guys gonna help me and maybe my stupidity could teach other people again.I do wonder about my, my suitability as the host of this either.
I'm very qualified.Defied or very poorly qualified as the straight white.Middle-aged married, man.This guy who happens to be from a country who for a, for a very long time was probably the world champion in exclusion and legalizing, the lack of diversity.
So, yeah, maybe it makes me extremely qualified as these Christians will.See, sure.We begin though by getting to know you guys a little bit.See you guys on the The on the networks out there and I've read about you Cam in a magazine and but I want to get to know you a bit better.
So, should we start with our lead, in question of bad decisions.Lead to good stories.I saw it on the side of a building once, and I like that, I wonder if it's true.I personally think it is, I don't know who wants to go first.Do you guys agree with the statement that bad decisions lead to good stories?
And do you have an example for us?Yeah, I think I can definitely lead to stories whether they're good or not.Can depend I guess something that sprung to mind.For me, I'm from Tasmania.I'm a Tasmanian Aboriginal man.
So, grew up there, and it felt a little bit daunting to leave this state.We can can.Sometimes come off as a little bit, a little bit backwards down there, but it's hard as a youngster thinking about leaving home.And so, when I graduated from high school and was thinking about University, despite all of my better judgment.
I applied for medical school at the University of Tasmania.I think partly also because all through high school, we were sort of trained that being a human doctor was the The Pinnacle of all achievements and so that everybody should aspire to that.
And I think I fell into that trap a little bit.Despite wanting to be a vet since I can remember, and so got in and made the decision to actually start studying human medicine, and did that for about 6 months long enough, unfortunately, to acquire the hex debt and hated it.
Absolutely hated it.I didn't feel like I was amongst People of the same mindset.There were people there who openly admitted that they were in it for the social status and the fancy car and the big paycheck.
And I yeah, felt pretty uncomfortable there.And so yeah, I learned a few things mostly about myself, I think in that situation but it also gave me the time instead of just going straight into vet school.
It meant that I was out of medical school after six months.And then had a lot more time to spend doing other things.So working and traveling for another year and a half after that.And I think spending that time traveling in particular I was, I always have been a big introvert, but that really helped me come out of my shell quite a bit.
So it was a terrible decision to undertake studying medicine.But I think it was ultimately led to some pretty If processes for me.Just doing what you say about.The Howard doesn't suit you at all and people doing it just for these for the Social Status.
So, and you didn't, or do you do not, or do you ever experience that with that?Like, do you think we sometimes do it?Not obviously, not for the money.Nobody guys wanted for the big bash but this is social status to prove it.Yeah, absolutely yeah, yeah.
I think that it's interesting, I guess the social status has a there's a bit of a different approach.Approach to it amongst vets, it's more about what we can do, I guess, rather than who we are in the eyes of other people and I definitely felt as soon as I started vet school that I was amongst my peers and part of a community, the competitive nature really came out when I was studying medicine.
Whereas, I felt, you know, even though we were obviously, amongst competitive people who really wanted to do.Well in that school, there was a lot of collegiality there that I was.Really drawn to him.And then you say, you always wanted to be a vet, how did one thing to be aware?
It happen for you like, Brie uni days?What was what was little cams like, like that, why don't made him want to be a vet?I think pretty similar to a lot of people surrounded by animals from a very young age living on hobby farm from the time that I could walk basically surrounded by cattle helping with carvings getting tadpoles out of The damn playing with the Ducks and Chuck's and bit of everything really.
So just being surrounded by the animals and really inspired by them.I think.And one of my mentors processor Liz tutor, who has done a lot for me in my career, she often speaks to the vet students at Melbourne, uni about how for a lot of people in their careers.
It's a particular person that inspired them along their career path.But she thinks Her idea that that for that sits probably in most cases, an animal rather than a person.Wow.Hey, did any point.You can ask questions as well.
I like that.I've got a co-conspirator yeah, likes it because like we know each other because of our podcast now connection, but sometimes I let's have a story like every time we're exploring more, but I loved that you taught their cam about that connection to community when you got to visit schools and it was really and I think that's really really important and hopefully we might be able to explore that a little bit later as well.
So I've been talking to you but I also yeah like my sort of thing was definitely wasn't a person either that inspired me was more like it was the animals.Animals that a broad term or was it a particular animal or a particular animal relationship for you Kate?
Yeah, no, probably animals in a broad term.My mum was a nurse, and the first thing I remember was her being.She was head of radiology at Prince of Wales hospital.And so I was used to Medical settings and for me being a like, Kim says, like being a doctor.
Was that whole like it was the best thing, but also it didn't equate to, I love absolutely adored animals.And so my thing was I thought the very best thing in the world would be to be an animal doctor.
So hence vet and that was like from a super super young age.There's a did a year six project or con you know what I'm going to be when I grow up and it was like veterinarian.I think that my bad decision for want of a better term so that link it back to our bad decision.
I think was even at that age and I think it's a lot of people know I'm trans.So I was assigned male at Birth.I grew up, I didn't transition to female until not that long ago about five years ago, seven or eight years ago.But when I was growing up, there was this thing like I absolutely wanted to be a veterinarian.
That was my life goal.I also wanted to be a girl, but I couldn't see how I could be a girl and a veterinarian like it sort of didn't quite match up.There weren't any trans females.Veterinarians around back in there.Like they 1980s 1990s.
So I made the decision to be a veterinarian and suppress the whole trends like sort of all of that suppressed at bat like deep like really quite deep and that decision did cause some trauma and some challenges and not just for myself.
But also for people that I care about particular, Left her with my children to an extent, although less.So probably than Tara however with our good outcomes, I guess if I had enough suppress those, if I hadn't have made that decision, then if I had transitioned at that, if you know, and there were girls who transitioned it, like back in the 80s and the 90s are a number of them, but if I had done that, I wouldn't have my pride wouldn't have met Tyra, I may not have gone to vet school, you know?
And I certainly certainly wouldn't have had our children.You know, we wouldn't have had a children who are absolutely adorable and God isn't in and I live my life for them and for Tara.So, yeah, bad decision, good outcome?Yeah, it's a good question in terms of ads as we've had to this question, I will say that magnitude of your decision, probably trumps everything we've had so far.
The funny thing is, I just don't know that and I don't even know if it was Conscious per se or it was unconscious ID.Like it's life's a journey and there's lots of decision points on that and I think you can just you can only do your best.
And I think the reason I started to do to have a challenge with this question, I think was the whole point of bad, like, sort of what's a badass a decision.I think that most people Mike's the best decision, they can at the time with the information that they have and sort of on the feelings that they have at the time and in retrospect we go, was that a great decision?
And I'm sort of fire.I've had family members make some pretty horrendous decisions about my life but it did their best at the time.Yeah, I don't know.That was the challenge I had with that question.Yeah, I never really analyze the question when I decided to when I chose that.It was kind of a flippant decision of all of this.
We can get some fun stories out of that, you know, I decided to do this adventure and but it was clearly a bad time decision, but all these exciting things happen to me that I can laugh about it now, but it is actually a loaded question because exactly what what is it?
Bad decision?It is what you make of it and what is a good story?A good story, doesn't necessarily mean a happy ending.It's just a good story.It's a story.Mmm.Yeah I was recently introduced to the Concept of type 2 fun.
Where type 1 fun is just you know fun but type to fun is it's terrible at the time.But you look back on it and think, you know, it's when you got caught in a rainstorm and it was absolutely miserable.But then you got a good story out of it.
So yeah, it sort of sounds like type 2 fun.Is that is Veterinary, practice type to funnier.It definitely can be, I think I've I think I've had some days where I was, you know, out doing carvings two hours drive from the clinic and cut my hand with a frittata me knife.
You know, that makes for a good story, but I was pretty unhappy at the time, okay?It's your story.I'm fascinated.I've never had the opportunity, To ask some of these questions.So I'm going to ask some questions because it's something that I like that.
It's so foreign to me I'm really fascinated by so you see it as a kid.I wanted to be a vet.I wanted to be a girl easy to verbalize and understand that I want to be a vet was it it's similar Clarity for you and even as a youngster to go I want to be a girl.
But you couldn't verbalize it because of culture and Society or was it just what did it feel like what did it feel like before you got to that decision?That's--that.Is an amazingly insightful, question bitch.Listen I and I and I tell you why, because one of the biggest challenges for you have is that and particularly for transgender youth is that often times trans youth have these feelings and we don't know how to verbalize them.
And this is this is also like I'm growing up back in like the 70s.So that was born in 1972.Warning for your listeners.I graduated last century people.But yeah, so the language around this type of thing, didn't exist and even now it's a challenge.
And what we do find is that what we find is that a lot of times that surrounds a lot of trans and gender diverse people, they kind of they come around to identifying who they are by a In defining who they're not.
And I think what it was for me.I just felt like I was just not male and it's a, it is a challenging feeling to describe that in the same way that I think it's hard for me to understand how sis person feels about their body and their gender and how that also matches up.
But I guess the other, the other analogy I can give which is comes along much later in life was that once I I started exploring my gender, and then in particular for me once I started medical therapies to transition, so not every trans person for Sue's medical therapies to transition, I do and have done.
But once I started pursuing medical therapies and particular hormone therapy, it was very much like the world suddenly was in color.It was like a veil had just been lifted and I could actually Do I didn't realize how much I had filtered all my life and so I had been like, I tried to express some of these feelings to family members when I was younger and had been told they were wrong and went.
Yeah.I've been told they were wrong, you know, and you're young, you want to be loved by your family and I don't they just they just didn't have an understanding but some I didn't, I'd probably didn't realize for a very long time.How much?I placed a filter.
And had like looking literally, every thought in my head before I did, or said anything went through a filter of, how will this be perceived?Well, I would be perceived as being male and socially accepted and so that was the feeling that I had and it just it just gradually built up, built up and built up.
And to a point where it was just You no longer tolerable.The person who I was on the inside was sort of screaming going.I have to be able to express this to the outside world.And have someone else.Have someone else?See that someone else.
See who I am?That's a really complicated answer, isn't it?I wouldn't expect it to be simple know.Exactly.And same thing for you can.Please, if you have questions, please ask him.I'm still that.
I'm trying to picture him trying to Imagine it.I'm trying to have empathy for it, not and not an understanding, everything better, feeling empathy for it.And all the other things that you that we filtered in that way, do you think other parts of our life or personality?That's, you know, not as some not a male-female thing but oh God.
Yeah.Oh, totally completely.And I think can would probably even be better at sort of perhaps answering this one in a lot of respects.Yeah, I think there's definitely racial aspects there as well.I Growing up in Tasmania even though I am Aboriginal there's huge loss of Aboriginal culture in Tasmania.
So I grew up, not really knowing much of my culture.But certainly for people who have lived in grown up in particularly remote indigenous communities, there's definitely people I've spoken to who have lived in cities for schooling University.
There's definitely filters people put on to get by I guess.Yeah, definitely change the way that they interact with the world and not all that.Not all filters are bad.Yes was genuinely likes it.Is there some people who need to feel like an occasional?
If I said it seriously, you do not want to see me at my messy stages so fucking my messy places.It's sort of everyone has filters.I think that and everyone has that way of interacting with the world.I think that the challenge I think is when the why someone feels that they have to interact with the world is fundamentally different to who they are as a person.
And I think that's where the conflict starts to become untenable and things start to break down mentally.And I think in part, this is sort of to talked about this online, a couple of times this.I think a lot of Ian's feel this because that's who they are, as a veterinarian and who they are as a sort of what they're trying to do.
And then the way the world tries to make them be a veterinarian, the way our profession tries to make them be a veterinarian at times and certainly the way the public tries to make us be veterinarians.Those two things can just be in, massive conflict.
Absolutely, massive conflict.And I think we end up with with a crisis almost of identity, that sort of a Veterinary identity that we're not sure.How do we express, who we are as veterinarians and maintain that Integrity in the face of these of these pressures.
I really like that way of looking at it.So is it fair to say that?You say filter, but maybe.So we need a filter to filter.The thing that stops me from what that turns me into polite professional veterinarian when I need to be.It doesn't this doesn't distort or betray who I am and then when it becomes to that extent where that filter is so severe, that nothing of who you really are gets to see the light.
That's when it becomes a an untenable situation.Is that that sound fair?I think that's exactly right.I think that's a beautiful.I have something that up.Yeah.And, and, and then it becomes mentally, very unhealthy.
When you're in that situation that's a super challenging mental health situation.When your own that when you can't get your identity valid.Now I'm sort of known as they're validating your identity.That's the space where it can all fall apart, very very quickly.
So examples and this is for either camera.I don't know if you identify this over recognize that will cater for you on a run with it to make this practical in a specifically in a profession.Where do you see what about the profession or culture or expectations can impose their Distortion or betrayal of?
We are on some individuals within their profession.Do you experience anything like that cam?I think I may be due to some degree so I'll leave it up to you.That's a very good question.I might have to think about that.Have you got anything paid?
Yeah, it's a great thing about to guess.Is what you can always trust it.I think honestly there are so many things like there are so many things and some of them are imposed by ourselves, like the expectation from our colleagues that non-clinical work is not Veterinary.
Work.We've all had that one have a way.Are you a real vet?You do clinical work.The expectation from clients?It's the expectations from clients is probably one of the hugest ones certainly for a clinical veterinarian.Its massive that you're going to be there available all the time that you're going to be 110% attuned to all of this order needs and then when you don't fulfill their expectations for whatever reason that is so that can be all sorts of reasons.
Number one, their expectations can just be absolutely unreasonable.That said, when you don't fulfill That suddenly according to them, you don't care.Which I don't think I've ever met a veterinarian.Who doesn't care.Really.Yeah.
That's like the knife in the heart for any of us.Right.Yeah.It's the killer isn't it?That's the one and it gets bandied about by the public.Is that?Yeah, you don't care.And then that's a massive conflict because it is so fundamental to most people's identity.
Like, that's a hard one to shrug off and I I've got a very, very, very firm sense of who I am.But even I struggle with that one at times.So I think you can call this the conflict, you can call it a crisis of identity, you can call it a moral conflict.
You can call it moral distress, or ethical distress.We're dancing terms around the same thing.I think it's the same football, we're just looking at it through different lenses.To be honest, I thought I play football, but you know, Night.
So yeah, we come back to Allah, I think it's really important because I think that, I think that a lot of vets struggle with really understanding who they truly are as a person because it's it's not always an enjoyable place to go examining yourself and finding out who the hell you are.
It's a very deep place that you have to sort of go to.And I was kind of pushed there because of who I am.Am, I didn't choose it, some people choose it, but I was kind of pushed there because of who I am, but I think as veterinarians big often time.Yeah.I don't even know your, I know some of you, I know you do research stuff that I know you do Outreach stuff but just to put us in the picture with your because K do you you're a clinical vet and practice owner can you feel that?
Yeah yeah I pretend to be a practice own, right?So what is your working life look like am and how did it?How did you get the outer we go from?You need to wear cameras now.Yes.Some of the stuff that Kate was saying about wanting to be a clinical vet and not necessarily feeling a whole that.
If, if you're not involved in clinical work is something I do relate to.After a few years of practice, I started experiencing chronic migraines which made clinical work.Pretty difficult for me to continue on with, and which is why I sort of ended up ultimately in Academia and pursuing a PhD.
HD.Because it was something that was that much more flexible where I could have off days and be okay.But I think that something else, that's sometimes difficult in, that respect is sort of the ladder that we often put in front of ourselves, after vet school, seeing that progression getting through that school getting through first year, getting through second year, or even before that getting into vet school and then on the other side of it just thinking.
Okay, well, what's next?So I originally had Ideas of perhaps specializing and so it always seemed to have a clinical Pathway to it.But then that became evident that.Yeah, it probably wasn't that feasible for me.
So yeah, I do these days my work is a bit of a mixed bag.So I have been doing a PhD for gosh, the last three years.It's been a little bit difficult through covid because a lot of my research work involves Field work in remote Aboriginal communities in Arnhem Land which has been pretty well shut off for much of that time.
I do still do some clinical work up there so few times throughout the year.So a lot of space castrates, parasite treatments.So pretty basic bread and butter stuff and certainly not this specialist path that I originally envisaged for myself.
But I think that part of my identity as a vet has Coming to realize that can actually be okay with myself and not having pursued that specialist pathway and that this basic stuff does a great deal of good and so that I can actually be pretty happy with that and it's something that working at the University.
So many vet students want to be a part of.So yeah, bit of clinical work with that bit of research, I do a bit of teaching in the vet school and I'm also involved in In various committees around indigenous engagement.So, engaging with indigenous communities remote communities in particular, but also student recruitment.
So currently there are not a lot of indigenous vets and not a lot of indigenous that students but something that working on and hope to see much more of actually I want to jump in there because number one, I really want to because I think that leads like camera saying their leaves a line to particular include And but also diversity, but what I actually wanted to jump in on was a question that you talk think am about like the ladder and what's next and I kind of wonder if our constant pursuit of what's next.
Are we just running away from what's now?Like, I wonder if we really spend enough time on what's now and worried that, what's now Now, isn't enough for whatever rather than actually, perhaps just exploring what's now rather than running off to what's next?
Yeah, I think so.I think to a degree I felt after vet school, perhaps it's hard to put a actual word on it, but probably the closest thing I can come up with is institutionalized, where There was always some looming deadline or exam or something and then all of a sudden there wasn't and it was just about become a good vet, whatever that means.
How do I do that?Isn't there some sort of course with exams and stuff that I can enroll it?Isn't there something else rather than yeah, focusing on?What am I doing now?How is this experience that I'm now in actually?
Doing the job of every day.Making me a good fit.Yeah.And at the risk of taking over your podcast here.Hubert.Sorry.What do you think this one?I don't know if you fix my chasing, what do you feel?Like, you're constantly running after what's next?
And I'd sometimes I think I do, it's a constant struggle, it's the constant conundrum of being happy with in the moment.One of the things I strive for is I don't like the word mindfulness because it has this kind of nations with hippie and we will, but being present in the moment and being grateful for where you are.
Because this is all you have right.This moment is all that there really is, but then also not being stagnant and making the most of your talents and contributing to the world.And, you know, I get bored very quickly as well.So put me in the same position for a year or two and I'm bored of shouldn't I want to do something so?
No, I don't know.I don't know that there is a single Sir to that.My answer to that is that both both.You can strive and improve but also be completely satisfied with what is here.But that sounds very Zen.No, I love it.
I think it's really.I really love that answer because I think you're on bad as well.I'm like tired, of course we sparkle because it like if it Sparkles and Glitters and shine, it's like oh let's chase that just like I did with certain that Cam said that.But I think you the danger with just In the Here and Now is becoming stagnant.
That's exactly it.And again, it's all about the balance.Isn't it between those things like achieving that balance of not being constantly on the run, because we're just going to get exhausted.But also making sure that we don't become stagnant.It's very towel concept.
Yeah, we got to go, even walk down out when I try and think about this.I can't remember where I read about this but you know the unity an emblem, the black and white.I always thought it was sort of good and evil or opposites or something, but the explanation that I heard that made a lot of sense for me is the wavy line in the middle is the path.
One side is order, one side is chaos and the path Is straddling.That line that wavy line is.It's not easy between Order and Chaos.And sometimes you will step over into chaos and things will fall apart and will be too much and you'll, and you'll need to go back to more order and other times if you get stuck, To deepen order.
It's boredom, it stagnation it's not moving forward and you need to step back but it's not a goal is not a place you'll get to.It is a daily assessment of.Well where are we too much audit too much chaos and realign and survive.Yeah, I love that.
That's the way I try and see it.Yeah, we're actually doing a Veterinary podcast listeners.I'm going to bring it back.Bring it back, early experience.I want to make this practical because I think there's a lot of people.Who in that first five years ago.
Oh shit.Is this for me?I don't know.And again that conundrum of well the distress, I'm feeling the discomfort I'm feeling, is it?Because I'm new, and it's scary.And I'm not there yet and I need to settle into it.Or is it just not genuinely?For me, is it distorting?
I really am too much and I need a different path you talked about.When you started you had these chronic migraines was that because of work.Is that a work-related things stress thing or what describe that period for you?Yeah, the short.Answer is nobody knows.So I was working up in Rochester at a mixed practice at the time, driving back to the clinic and all of a sudden couldn't see out of half of my field of vision, I thought it was out of one eye but then Closing one eye, it was still half of my vision.
Got back to the clinic thankfully and then just crashed, we thankful we had a little couch at the back.Just crashed on the couch and Couldn't move couldn't do anything.Had the worst headache that I'd ever had in my life because I've never had a never known what a migraine was before and then proceeded to have a one continuous headache for the next three months.
Just all day all night a headache.And so thankfully, I had an unbelievably supportive practice who Just gave me the time when I couldn't work and I yeah, did my best to do what I could when I could, but had every test Under the Sun, CTS, MRIs, lumbar, punctures all kinds of things.
Thankfully ruling out all the nasty stuff but ultimately never really found out.I went through about four different neurologists, many of whom said that it was most likely Likely due to stress but I think I've never really considered myself a very stressful person and I think a lot of people who know me would probably say the same and I certainly wasn't in a stressful role at the time either.
I love my job, they looked after me very well, I wasn't working my ass off, wasn't a super busy time of year so yeah, it was a bit of a weird experience and yet did kind of change change my Outlook.
And where my career was going to go and yeah, I guess probably a little bit of guilt there.I think I did feel bad.Even though my clinic was Rochester, vet practice was extremely understanding.I just felt bad that I couldn't be the vet that I wanted to be for them and be the employee that I wanted to be for them giving our understanding and supportive, they've been so, yeah, it's been a bit of a shaping thing and it has unfortunately cropped up Up a few times since then ultimately we managed it was after a week in a bit in a hospital and finally managed to break it break the the migraine but it has yet cropped up ever since and it's something I'm still looking after and it does it has interrupted a few stings.
When I've been trying to do extended lots of clinical work up in the Northern Territory, a lot of the time just you know the climate because it's that much warmer up there.It doesn't help getting hot and sweaty and rated when you're trying to avoid migraines.Shit.
That's terrible.The so your decision to leave standard practice.Wasn't they hate practice.This doesn't suit me.It was, It was kind of well, the health issue really?Yeah, I was trying a few different things.I went and worked.I did the Young vets pilgrimage of going over to the UK just before I turn 30 while, I could still get the visa and did that for a year.
Things are okay over there, migraine wise, but it did dawn on me over that time that yeah, it was just going to be difficult.And I really love Large Animal Practice.Really live cattle practice.I don't know that.Small animal practice was Even necessarily for me, I always really struggled with 15-minute consults or whatever it is.
I take pride in having the time to be able to do things properly and feeling like I couldn't do as good.A job.As I would like to often found myself beating myself up a little bit and so I think that side of things, I enjoyed the variety of mixed practice, but the small animal stuff, I don't think I got particularly good at And that probably didn't help that I didn't love it as much either.
So, it was probably a bit of a mix of things.I still really love the work that I do in the Northern Territory.But yeah, as I said it's, you know, it's still pretty basic stuff, but still a lot of a lot of fun.I really want to come back to the work you do up there.I'm fascinated by it.
But gate does any of this resonate with you?What cams talking about?It's an interesting one.Because, despite my life being like some sort of bizarre soap opera, I've actually been incredibly lucky, like really very, very lucky in my life and in my factory career as well.
So I was incredibly lucky to go to university when like, we could go through University with bugger all debt, realistically.I would have Add hex and sort of my ex was like fifteen thousand dollars or so.So just for international this is hexes government-funded student loans basically, right?
It's a government-to-government front of students sort of think so I worked, my first job was for an asshole of the boss.Oh my God, he was a oh, sorry.How are we going to sort of?Are you going to say?But if you listen to this and you think it's you it's not you, okay?
It's another, it's not trust me.And I lasted six months, it was just, it was a ridiculously friendís job.The only race, not lasted, six months.I think was because I was at a branch that I was dumped into fairly early on.
I was pretty much doing that on my own almost and Tara and I were to are actually started had been doing some like we work in a position currently practice and she terrorized my wife.Sorry.And also a bit, also a veterinarian.Yeah, Factory dentist a much better educated than I am but She started and she lasted three days.
So basically we quit Tire ended up getting another job.I went and actually did two years part-time of environmental science degree.I was still doing some local Min because we were young but I was mainly just doing the low coming for the money and I still I liked being a vet like I liked the idea and I still do like I still I love as much as there are days where I really just like I woke up in Psych.
God do I really need to go to work but I actually like the event, the life.The fact that we can fix things, you go in and you do stuff, and it makes an animal healthy and makes it better, or makes it pain free or whatever.
We do that assist, that animal.And most of the time what you do is actually making that animal, more pain-free happier, helping it actually get better.And I like that, especially when you do it, Fred, But so I think sometimes we get so disenchanted by what's inflicted on us and it is inflicted on us either by workplaces or by the public or whatever it sort of happens.
I think sometimes we get so disenchanted that we Deflect that emotion of disappointment on to we go.I'm disappointed in Justin being a vet and I made the wrong choice and I just don't know that.
That's necessarily always the case.And I think if you're in that situation is a, I think we started out this conversation.Didn't we?With the question as to what are we sort of like, with younger vets for, you know, they're feeling feeling like their careers, aren't going where they wanted to be a whatever it is.
I think if you feel like that's the key, Is what I'd say is, I'd say, somebody get out of the situation just genuinely just leave but the second thing is take a bit of time and step back and actually just go.
Okay, what was it about being a vet or doing Veterinary work and what was it about working with animals?That really gave me that sense of identity of who I am.And if that's still there, maybe you might want to go back.
Come back in to the profession, maybe if it's not there, maybe it changes.If that feeling is no longer there, maybe it's maybe it's just not there and maybe you need to go and do something else.And maybe that feeling will come back and you may decide to come back to the veterinary profession in some capacity or some way and maybe you won't and you're not a failure.
It's just a different life, path way.It's a great answer because it because in my mind it is if you're in there.Dissatisfied situation is a couple of questions that you're going to ask them all that you ask yourself or personal experience.The first is, is it me?I get my unsuited to this role or to a clinical role or whatever.
All you find yourself in, is there a mismatch is the is the filter too strong?Is it to distorting of who I am, or is it the careers fault?Like, is it the culture and the career, the expectations, you know, the long work days, are they practical factors that making it bad?
Or is it just this job?Is it this job?It's not that.I don't like being a vet.I just don't like being a wedding this job for whatever reason.And I like that, stepping away, because I feel like a lot of people think that, once you're out, you're out, he's no coming back but actually going, well, I'll take a break, try something else, kick a few rocks, try this.
See if someone else takes her interest, and if you go home now, I actually really miss it.I want to go back.There's a saying in the trans Community, once you transit trains, you can try and suppress it for a while.We should probably back to maybe watch a video of it.I should have just surprised it for today, guys.
She'll be back.Damn it.Is there anything to add to that?Or is that jail was with your thoughts on it?Yeah, no, I think taking a break going part-time, there's various options there and it works like the for a lot of people that works a good friend of mine, took some time out and she went and I worked at an ice cream shop for a while and I couldn't think of a better thing to do to be honest.
I don't think that it would be great for my health because I just be eating ice cream all the time.It's probably my absolute Kryptonite ice cream.But yeah, you know, you can do whatever you want.And she's now back in practice and she's found something that works better for her.
So she's doing a couple of part-time positions.Loving it.So yeah, yeah.This before we move on to your webcam, can I do want to double click?So the thing that made me finally decide to contact you about this podcast, was something you wrote about Euphoria veteran, Euphoria Vistas veteran dysphoria.
Can you share your thoughts on that?Because I really like that.Yeah, kind of ties in with what we just discussed, right?Yes, it does.It does a little bit just so it was The thing that I wrote, I've been thinking about it for a while.So we've been talking to this whole podcast about filters and that dislocation between sort of who people think we are and who we actually are.
And I think that sort of, in the trans Community, we're actually kind of used to that because it, because if I asked, majority of trans people are who they are.Internally, who we are internally is very different from how we are perceived, and how we treated by other.
Belinda and, and that mismatch creates quite a lot of trauma and sort of anxiety, and whatnot.And in the trans Community, sort of trans health care, it's actually called gender dysphoria.So I'd say it's a dysphoria with who we are.
And I think, as veterinarians, we can actually get a Veterinary dysphoria, so we can actually get we go into this profession and sort of Cameron.I'll even we both were Need to be vets from a young age I but I think most veterinarians come into this job in you.
Want to do good.You come in because you care, you care about animals, you care about doing good.You care about Community.You care about you certainly don't come into a because you want to make money, you certainly don't come into it because you want to actually be a pain in the ass.I'll be horrible to someone.And then third various reasons, clients workplaces and whatever makes doing that caring that we want to do it.
Makes it almost impossible, and we're told that we've got to do X and we're told that we got to do.Why clients want us to do this or workplaces?Tell us that we've got to do a 10-minute consult or whatever it is.And it creates this real mismatched these Veterinary dysphoria, and again, use your own term if you want ethical distress sort of moral distress.
I like this for our I think it's as far as a good one like so what happened was gender dysphoria for the Trans Community ended up being, it was originally there to try and help us to identify people.
Trans people who needed assistance with actually matching up, who we are internally and who Society thought we were.And so identifying the people if you needed help.So, you were gender dysphoria, canned, so therefore you need it to go and see psychologist medical practitioner to get hormones, whatever it was, the problem is, is it ended up being weaponized against us and ended up It's being used to essentially embed Us in this Quagmire of controls and negativity that enabled people to tell us who just tell us who we should be.
Just tell us who we should be in a different way.What we did is a community and I think so, if it wasn't I don't even know if that we've made a conscious decision and this is sort of something.But this idea of gender Euphoria developed and within the The trans community.
And basically, it was rather than defining ourselves by dysphoria.We defined ourselves by the euphoria that we feel when we are validated.When we are seen as our true gender when we are treated in the way that, you know, we need to be treated as individuals.
And I think that we need to Look at that in the veterinary.I think we need Veterinary Euphoria.Being a veterinarian is an amazing thing.Being a trans person is an amazing thing as well.It's not tremendous.
I actually love being trans and not sound stupid and sort of, you know, and it's not like it's a piece of cake or anything trust me but I really like I love my life like it's sort of and I love who I am.And I think that we sometimes forget that or we find it challenging to find that space as veterinarians and we feel like we don't deserve that space.
Maybe maybe we don't yeah, maybe we feel a bit like we don't deserve that space for his ass.Like all those things that we want to do look after animals Care for Animals.All of those things that we do do on a daily basis.They're amazing.Like they really are incredible and I think we sort of need to make sure that we're remembering that and remembering those the dysphoria and that the things that cause the dysphoria, it's not going to make that magically go away.
It's still going to be.It is still going to be the pain in the neck line, there's still going to be the boss that wants you to do a consult in 10 minutes or whatever it is.But the student be the case that goes from render, sleep are shaped believe me.But That is things start to when you hold on a little bit more and allow yourself to experience the Euphoria of the dog that basically came in as a snake bite and you treat it and it's better.
I sort of, you know, that dogs gonna die without you all the poisoning case or even outside of the emergency stuff the stuff that Kim's doing like you see it in entire communities worth of animals.That actually are now lower levels of parasites.
They've got better lives, they've not been breeding sort of uncontrollably with lots of puppies and kittens everywhere causing problems and that's having Better Health outcomes for the community as well.I think that we need to sort of really make sure that we are genuinely proud of that.
And actually go you know what, I'm a veterinarian and I deserve.I have the right and I deserve to be proud of being a veterinarian.And I shouldn't have to apologize for it.I shouldn't have to be constantly trying to justify why.
I'm very if you say we did you think of it?Maybe we feel like we don't deserve it.Is it a question of we go a perspective or expectations?Maybe is that?Well when everything's going well.So when things are getting better, surgery's going well and we fixed the snake bite or get rid of all the parasites that's just normal.
It's nothing to be excited about because that's the expectation.Affected anything less than that.Is, that is horrible.And then we, so then we constantly the little things that don't go well, bring us down instead of going well, all these things are going.Well, actually really amazing.I'm really making it an impactful difference and it's something to celebrate its be euphoric about exactly.
And I think even worse, I think sometimes we see all these things going well.And we almost expect Something's going to go horrendously wrong.Sometimes we sort of go.I did.Do I really deserve to have all these cases?
Go really.Well, I must get on back to you for a bad one.Yeah.Yeah.I've been lucky this week.You're lucky this week.No, you haven't been lucky.You've been damn good at your job.Well, I think she's been really good at your job but you're not just been lucky.
So I think that we just and aiso said something once before as well.I have a challenge with the there's a I think there's a mindset a little bit at the moment, we're getting out of it as a profession, but I think there's still a little bit of a mindset that way we can.
Constantly want, pity not.We want people to sort of go and look, suicide is bad and the suicide rate for veterinarians, it's bad.And our job is a stressful job and all that sort of type of thing.But we seem to be, it seems to me.
That is a profession.We're asking for pity from the public.It's like, I don't want the Public's pity.I actually want their respect.I want them to respect me.I don't even really want them to love.Me, honestly, I've got plenty of love for my family, you know, there are some classes together love you and so you're gonna get connections with them whatever.
But I don't need every client that walks through the door to love me.I just need their respect, you know, and I think that to me, sort of ties in a bit with it as well.Like, I think when we were in the trans Community was tied up in this gender dysphoria.
Sort of perspective, we constantly wanted pity for the in friendís sort of think so.Side rates in the veterinary community of bad, just please don't even go there with the Trans Community.But, you know, we were constantly looking for pity like that was somehow going to change how our lives would be rather than taking in a way taking the control back and go, you know what?
No, I don't want pity.I want respect, I deserve respect, I deserve to be loved, I deserve to have a good life, and I think that, We sometimes forget that as veterinarians that we actually deserve to have a good life and deserve respect cam, where do you find Veterinary Euphoria or Euphoria in general, in your work?
I think that for me, the work that I've come to do in remote communities and to connect with the culture in remote communities has been a real source of Euphoria for me both professionally.
And personally, as I mentioned before, I grew up knowing that I am Aboriginal, but not having much of a connection culturally so not being able to speak language.Hello.Connie Tasmanian, Aboriginal language is a Reconstruction from remnants of all of the Tasmanian Aboriginal languages and it's not widely spoken because it's still in the process of being reconstructed.
So I couldn't speak language, didn't know much about my ancestral culture, it's something I've come to learn a little bit more about but to be able to engage with and learn about About living breathing indigenous, cultures within Australia.
And also to be able to contribute to the well-being of the entire Community has just been such a source of joy for me, I think and has been a real source of personal growth in general.
Was that reconnection something that you actively searched out, because you felt it missing, or did you stumble across it?And then went, oh, wow, it's this thing that I didn't know as missing.Yeah, I think I stumbled across it.Mostly, I certainly didn't know that it was going to be a way that I could combine my search for cultural connection and my career.
So I first started being involved as a final Year vet student.And yeah, really didn't know about it prior to starting University and just fell in love with it.As soon as I started being involved, I love the integration, like the fact that you've got the veterinary and your cultural connection, like the two connections together, like you're connected to Veterinary Community.
You've connected to cultural community in the two together has been created like this.Synergistic effect of like something that's probably even bigger than the two of them individually.So I really love that idea.I'm mindful of that sort of the whole work-life balance, and we sort of, we standing to see a little bit of a change in that discussion, aren't we?
Now that is so that we don't quite do the whole work-life balance.I'm going to do four hours of work and four hours, a lie forever.We just sort of used to think that actually man, God knows if that was ever what it was supposed to mean, I don't know, but it's like trying to sort of unhook work from life.
I'm not sure.Really, really flies when it comes down to it, which is a part of where we talked before, like, right at the start.We talked about inclusion and I don't know if you can ever really be an inclusive, sort of fall, feel included until your workplace, we spend a lot of our day at work.
Most people, there's a Rule, unless you actually integrate other parts of who you are as a person that it's not just fat.It's not just I'm not just going to turn up and just do clinical know if it including a podcast is awesome.And we need that but we would not just turning up at work.
Doing clinical.I'm a computer that sort of just does clinic clinic clinic.Yeah that it's that were actually whole people at work.I think until we get to that point, which I don't think we're quite out yet.Then we're going to continue to fund challenges.But you mentioned one of it was UK.
I think I mentioned hard in the beginning.When we talked about inclusion, inclusion is about hard and I mind the tangent always on this podcast about heart.If we leave heart out of it, then, yeah, it's doomed to fail.Exactly the work.You do up think I'm fascinated by it.
Is it.I've spoken to a few people who do community work in Aboriginal communities and it sounds challenging.It sounds like hard work, is it?How are you finding it and what are Your big challenges other than actually in the middle of nowhere and distance.
Yeah it can definitely be tough.It's a whole other set of skills that you tend to develop a lot of the dogs with are all essentially free-roaming dogs, which most people are not that familiar with dealing with.
And this dogs are certainly not used to being handled.So if you try to put a slip lead or something on them they'll start flipping out like a fish, on a line.And I think the important thing there is that we don't, we don't try to put our, you know, Urban Melbourne, practice on that and come to understand that actually, in the, the truth of it. 75 percent of dogs on earth a free-roaming and leave like that.
And so the dogs that we're dealing with, you know, but Melbourne or wherever are actually the outliers there.But yeah, it's hot.The dogs don't love.Being handled but usually develop skills to be able to dharti and Jab them with sedation quick enough before they realize what's happened.
But it's a different style of practice often, we're doing surgery where we can sometimes that's outside.Sometimes it's in the Community, Hall rigging up fluid bags, from something.
Last time we did, it was from a little disco set up.I think.Ink and basically doing doing things slightly differently for various reasons.So for instance will often do a lot of it's working in those sorts of areas, do flexpays.
Obviously just because once you've jabbed the dog and done surgery, that dog is never ever going near you again simply because they didn't really trust you to begin with but now they know really not to trust you.So at least with a FlexPay, you can do your pose.
Stock check from a block away if you have to.But ideally, you know, something that you can check on as the dogs walking down the street because, and again, they're not getting cage rest.They're not kept inside their back to being free-roaming again.
So, various different things that we're doing there, but it works well for us.And another important part of what we're doing is actually monitoring the effect.Because obviously, if we're just doing it and not really fine, Out, if there's any Improvement that we're making that.
Well, why bother?But we take census of all the dogs.So we go around house to house.That's where we collect the dogs for surgery, we're giving out parasite treatments as well.And so, we're doing a census to check the numbers of dogs per house.
The body and skin condition score, if there's any pregnant or lactating bitches there.So what we've been able to show is that over in gumballanyah and West Arnhem Land.One of the main communities that we work in looking at the number of dogs per house.
We went from 10 years ago, the median was about six dogs per house.And over 10 years, we got that down to and that's basically just because these dogs being free roaming, they're going to do, what dogs are going to do, they're going to breed.
Because there's no fences keeping them apart.They going to braid about as much as dogs can breed.And so people in these communities are left, feeling pretty powerless with that because they've got all these puppies.There's hormonal dogs that are fighting, keeping people awake at night.
People are getting bitten and so they've got all these dogs that they can't feed.It's hard to get dog food into these communities because they're so remote.Dogs are knocking over pins, Scavenging.Making a huge mess.And so Community morale, when there is just huge numbers of dogs, can be quite low along with the dog bite injuries, and various other things with being kept awake at night.
So, just by keeping, those dog numbers down to a manageable level, where people can actually keep the number of dogs that they want to keep rather than the number of dogs that they're left with as a result of that, indiscriminate breeding can have Really profound effect not just on the health of the dogs.
They've all got much better skin that keeping their weight on much better but has an effect on community morale.And then of course, there's all of the one health effects of there's not dogs passing on zoonotic parasites or potentially skin infections to people that they're sharing their environment with as well.
So from very basic bread and butter stuff in a vet clinic desexing, 's and parasites.Right.Treatments the knock-on.Effects can be pretty profound massive.So the dog died free-roaming.But they owned.How do they, where did the dogs fit into the community?
Culturally, are they loved animals?Are they just a pest?Yeah.So it's interesting because a lot of the approach by local government historically has been that they are a pest and so the control efforts has been to go in and kill the dogs because it wasn't appreciated that We're owned and love dogs just because they're not fenced in, and obviously that hasn't worked dog.
Numbers have bounced back.They've come in from other communities.They travel between communities but yeah, almost all of the dogs that we see 99% I would say owned, and very much loved the concept of ownership can sometimes be a little bit more fluid than what we might be used to in an urban setting.
So it may be owned by individual buyer.A family by a group of families by the whole Community.Sometimes, gaining consent.For surgery, can be a little bit challenging because the owner maybe a nonverbal toddler and so will speak to you through the parents and they'll say, oh yeah, getting a D6, sounds like a terrific idea, but you're going to have to ask him and he can't say, yes.
So, they're the sorts of challenges that were faced with but culturally, They can be extremely important dogs in various communities around Australia.Because quite commonly, they are part of the Dreaming or creation stories in remote communities.
And that's especially, so, in West Arnhem Land.So that's part of dog dreaming country.So there are stories of two dogs, in the area who were involved in the creation of things, as important as fresh water sources.So they would travel and dig up.
The billabong's.So for the people of the area, they're extremely important.They can be important in various other ways as well.They can be part of the really intricate kinship system, which I don't really have time to go into it.
See extremely multi-layered but it's essentially it's a way of interrelation between people and sometimes animals in the community that extends Beyond blood.Nations.But dogs and sometimes cats can be considered brothers or sisters as well as part of that.
So lots of different factors that can come into it.Meaning that, yeah, they're very, very important members of the community.So, when we complain about the intricacies of ownership reconsidered, with husband and wife, were not speaking to each other, and in Melbourne, we have no concept of how complicated things can get.
Absolutely.I have another big question and then I'm going to wrap up questions but I we can move it along if you need to get other stuff down or PhD work or anything game.How you going for time?Illinois, anything to avoid the PHD work.The talk about stuff that I don't know and then we don't understand.
So we wanted to talk about inclusion in specific to the veterinary profession.When I planned for this or trying to prepare for this discussion.I got all bit stuck because in my mind or in my experience, when we talked with specific, I appreciate this massive topic globally on a world scale and a personal level scale.
I've never experienced The Vapor phase, And as particularly exclusive never seen, anything that I was really uncomfortable with.But then in thinking about it, I wondered is that?Just because I am I've not been involved in it, I haven't experienced a time.
I am I just oblivious.So you guys tell me, is it an issue?And how is it, an issue, what have you experienced?And then if so what do we do about it?I think that your experience you is not unusual or your perception is Not Unusual.
And I think it's understandable and I guess the I'd probably give a couple of explanations and a couple of talk about a couple of examples with this.I think that I probably didn't realize how much women were not valued and not celebrated until I was fully seen as a Woman by our community.
And that's a hell of a kicker including by our profession.And I have been dismissed, I our colleagues, both in a I guess I'm more sort of fair, what you would probably call a more aggressive isn't quite the right term, but in an unconscious way but also in a sort of conscious way of being dismissed as like sort of a, you know, what are you going to know about that?
As far as that goes?Despite the fact that I'd sat there two years Previously in that quite happily listen to my opinion.So I think that certainly does happen.I think I'll talk about the there's a thing called the gender identity Bill of Rights in the veterinary workplace.
So the gender identity Bill of Rights and the factory workplace is a set of Rights for Trans and gender diverse people.And when you kind of look at, when you leave them, there kind of civil rights like realistically, they're pretty obvious the right to pronouns, the right to names, the right to privacy, those sorts of things.
And you sort of go do we really need that?Like why do we need and should be really sort of Fairly obvious that this that well there's 12 rights there you know now and it should be relatively obvious ones that are there but I can tell you for a fact that I've had at least a half a dozen of them contravene the by colleagues.
So for example, the I've been asked more times by colleagues whether or not I've had Jury than by anyone who's not a veterinarian, which is a pretty solid for you.Go us.That really.
But like, when you think about is like, hang on, like, you've literally just asked me what my B look like?Like, that's kind of a, that's kind of a weird question, people.Wow, it's really certainly early on right to names, like, sort of fair I had a colleague and I'm sure they'd be quite embarrassed a lovely person and I Respect them a lot and I'm sure they'd be quite embarrassed if they sort of, I'm not sure if they even remember this, but they basically told me this was at least six months after I transitioned publicly and I was very public really public when we went full time, you know.
And they're like, are you going to understand really if people get your name wrong, I'm way.Yes, why like, I mean, you do change your colleagues names at the drop of a flash.Your favorite woman gets married.
It'll suddenly be dr.Smith, instead of dr.Jones, you know, I don't quite see it and they just don't quite.They don't quite see that.It's like, you know, it's sort of there's a, there's a huge amount of importance for Trans person on their on their pronouns being, correct, or someone in their pronouns, right?
So too, because it's just a dream.Drives to the fundamental core of Who We Are.So I think those things still exist, I think there's still some fundamental things like we still get a lot of challenges and issues with bureaucracies, particularly ugly universities, but sort of other bureaucracies as well, you know, doing things like using using students dead name.
So basically a someone's name that they no longer use but because it's still on the University enrollment, that's the name that appears on on all The tests and the name that the electorate uses, it's like it's not that hard to sort of to strike that out and sort of do that.
So I think there's a lot of things that actually are there.There's a lot more subtle things as well and I think it's the for me it's also a matter of people say that you treat everyone equally and and look at a fast.
Majority of people do treat.Try and treat everyone equally.They do their best, they really do.The other challenge though, is that for a trans person just to get in the door of your clinic, they've had to literally brace themselves to walk out their front door, get on public transport or get in their Car or walk down the road face.
The possibility of goodness, knows who shouting whatever slurs they particularly sort of want that them.This is after they've actually basically woken up and found goodness knows how many different news stories about sort of trans people in the media or their Facebook feed.
It sort of the first thing I do tell trans people when they're first.Transitioning is shut, your face book down for a suitable, least six months until you're happy with yourself, but some just to get in the door, therefore, Used up that much emotional energy.They're literally got about this much left, just to get in the door of your clinic, and it's like, it's that thing about Equity versus equality and sort of stuff like that.
It's like, does it really?Okay, I get that we can't take responsibility for all of society, although we can do our best to try and change it, but does it really cost a lot to actually go?You know what this person does come from a minority, be that Aboriginal be That gender diversity, that sort of culturally diverse, maybe they linguistically diverse, they don't, sort of fact, they've had trouble actually getting to the veterinarian because they couldn't actually tell the Uber driver exactly why they had a cat in the cage and sort of and that resulted in a huge argument whatever.
And does it really take a huge amount for us?Is a Veterinary profession to go.You know what?I'm actually going to give this person.I'm going to really try a little bit harder to actually try and make this experience one.Which Actually they feel like they're welcome.
They feel like they're valued and then that's kind of mean that they're going to be more likely to listen to me for a start more likely to probably do what I ask them to with their pad, you know.And we're in the Realms of positive discrimination and sort of stuff like that here when it comes down to it.
But I think it is probably more just a matter of.Yeah, look, I think that it's all going too well for us as individuals to is that we don't see ourselves as discriminatory or even our profession is discriminatory, but the problem is that profession doesn't exist In isolation in and of itself, we exist in society and Society, whether we like it or lot is still incredibly discriminatory to people from diverse backgrounds, be that whatever the diversity is sort of phone, neurodiverse, physically, diverse, culturally, diverse sort of LGBT.
Yeah, whatever that is.So I think the statement of I don't feel like we're that discriminatory which also in some ways is kind of not actually true.When we look at the studies which show that where the whitest profession in the world.
So if we're not that discriminatory, why is it so hard to actually get black veterinarian to people of color, veterinarians, gender, diverse veterinarians, differently-abled veterinarians.I think, sort of, if we really examine the statement we're probably saw Going to go.Actually, the evidence doesn't really support it from, but if we go back to our chaos order thing, like if we go are, you know, we're already tolerant enough like we kind of just stagnant, then we sort of not really progressing, thank you for sharing that because it does shed light on it, for me personally, I feel like the I suspect that a lot of the Slides are the things that we do wrong as people who don't understand, it comes from a lack of understanding comes on and ignorance rather than a matters.
And sometimes a well, I don't know, I don't know what to do with the situation, so I don't know what to say.And then I say the wrong thing because I'm trying, that's it.But I think the, what Dawn be there was that stuff that somebody who's not in that situation who's not had that experience of being any, exactly, as you say anything other than the cultural norm the standard That seems like a small thing.
So why do I call you?Give me.I don't give somebody gets my name wrong, but it's because it's not such a big deal for me.I don't really care what you call me, so then I go.Why are you getting so upset?If I don't think I got your pronoun wrong, some big fucking deal about it, but it's because of that lack of understanding.I don't get what that means to that person in there somewhere.
You said that we talk about treating everybody, the same, but maybe in the same isn't is what you trying to say is the same as not necessarily good enough because we've got to say Well considering A background a little bit more would be ideal as much as you can Master, ready?
Exactly.And also no one wants to be treated the same know if it's even when your ass is straight, you know heterosexual white guy like you don't want to be treated the same, like you have a value as an individual and you want that value to be recognized and celebrated everyone does.
And I think that what we sort of sometimes fail to see, is that the value of people who come from diverse, This minority backgrounds is not typically not celebrated, it's typically not actually because it's the cultural norm for someone who's a straight white guy to sort of, to talk about how they sort of had a great weekend with their partner and it will get sorry.
Wow, that was amazing.Sounds like a great night, but you know, happy anniversary instead of stuff like that.Now, happy wedding anniversary, something being well.It's has been six or seven years now, it's only been six or seven years that lgbtiq a people could get married, let alone have anniversaries.
So those things are sort of kind of still there.And I'll take a while for that to come out, but I still I stuff up to like, I get it wrong as well.Like, not a paragon of virtue.God knows the other day.I stuffed up on sort of the podcast.
I asked a really stupid ass question.On our posture, myself is just like, I just made like this.Major assumption.That was like what's the one thing that we can do?And that was to see how that comes about is like, what's the one thing we could do to make practices inclusive of Aboriginal people it's like oh for god sakes cake there's a fucking thousand things that I've really blown your explicit thing now haven't I don't ever have as much as you want.
I never said you can't swear.There's a thousand things that we've got to do both as a society and as I was Veterinary practices but now I'm creeping into Kansas territory.So I think we should go to Camp.So again, what's the one thing that we could do to make ice cream?
Okay, going back to what we were talking about before.Just free ice cream machine.Pretty well for me.No, I think as a fair skinned sis straight man.
I certainly have Heck of a lot of privilege.And so it's something that I probably didn't, certainly didn't notice to begin with and something that I have learned a lot about and have a lot to learn about.
And the more I look, the more I find, I guess in the world around me.But I suppose that the area that I'm more closely associated with is as Kate was Talking about getting the foot in the door.
And so Diverse students entering the profession and so I guess something that I'm interested in is what is it about the University or the course that means that we're not getting indigenous vets or neurodiverse vets from coming through, is it something that we're doing wrong?
Is it something earlier on?I think certainly for indigenous students.There's still not.The societal appreciation of indigenous minds.I think indigenous people are praised for their prowess on the sporting field or modeling.
I think that it's changing a little bit.There's appreciation for indigenous knowledge as it pertains to astronomy, native foods and things like that.But I think there's just a lot of things that and it's probably not yet, trickling down to kids as well.
So I think they're often times still seeing themselves as future 40 players or whatever else, but not as much as scientists as I would hope that any kid would be able to do.
So yeah I guess the where to where to go with.It is a hard thing.Unfortunately there isn't one single thing that we can probably be doing.I think that there's a lot of truth-telling to be done in schools and in the broader Community, a lot of closing of gaps in outcomes in indigenous education.
And I think sometimes the picture that can come across, when we potentially think about diverse people, entering the vet profession and it's not it's certainly not always the case but there's sometimes the risk of the discussion going in a way that look at where this person has got despite their diverse characteristics.
And I think that we really need to reframe that and think about it as look at the advantages that their diversity, brings to the profession.Look at this person who is multilingual and will go really far in communicating with their clients.
Look at this neurodiverse individual who has lived with assistance animals, and will have a much greater understanding of their needs.And what that means to their clients, look at this person who has lived in a culture where animals hold particular, significance and what understanding that will bring to their practice.
So, I think there's a bit of a reframing that could perhaps occur there.Mmm.So instead of well done for being more like us, despite where you came from, it should be much more of well.Thank goodness, you're here because we've been missing you, I'm missing what you can bring exactly.
That is.So so we'll said, I'm sorry, that's just perfect, isn't it?I'm still mulling that over because that, that is a shift for me because it is look, I can tell you my background and I do wind up camera night, you the challenge that you discuss their of getting more.
More diverse people into this very white, profession of ours and we had the same thing in South Africa.When I was a student that uni our University said we want English, 30 or 40, or even up to fifty percent, African background students in the bed School.Otherwise, you're going to be in trouble so they kept spaces and then you the year would start and there'd be one or two out of 120.
But it was it was just because there was no interest but it was that because there wasn't that role model, it wasn't the cam that I could look to and say hey That could be me.I want to be evade because I've my neighbor was of it, whereas I knew that the kids use dance with it.
So there was a career option for me, is that where it comes from?Yeah, I think there's the old saying, if you can say it, you can be it and if you're not saying it, well gosh, yeah.Where do you go?Well I'll done for being visible Camp.
It's really hard to be what you can't see, isn't it?And it goes back to well as explaining right.I start like I when I was a kid, like there was no trans veterinarians, I how do you do that?How do you be an Aboriginal veterinarian?
How do you be like a neurodiverse veterinarian?Who's, you know, High artistic sort of function?How do you be a different room?That's a tough path way to forge.I'd be curious to know what happens because it's 20 years since I was there and I again we had that one or two.
In our class who qualified with us and then I wonder now, 20 years later.Now, do we have 10 or 15 or 20 people who are interested?Because Catholic, who is in the class with me, is now a role model in his community.Maybe, I don't know.I hope so.I believe it.I believe that it's true, right?
Otherwise we wouldn't be on this path.You guys, have an event coming up.You guys are organizing it, right?Tell.Tell us more.Yes.So the veterinary Kaleidoscope Summit said basically where it sort of came down to was Out of the podcast.
We were like, wouldn't it be amazing if we got all of these people together and got everyone and in the same room like it, what sort of a room would that be like, can you imagine me in that room with a, you know, deaf veterinarian, bipolar veterinarian, Aboriginal vet, multiple gender, sexuality neurodiverse, all of these people in the one room, and okay, it's Probably gonna be chaotic, but we don't see that.
Like, so, if those people kind of ER in spots, but you'll send ever hear their voices, like you don't really hear the voice of death veterinarian.You don't really hear the voice of a physically disabled veterinarian.You don't really hear the voice of a trans veterinarian or an Aboriginal veterinarian, a traditional most veterinary conferences.
So we thought, okay, let's put us all in the one room and talk about it, but still About diversity and inclusion and I'm obviously heavily involved in the lgbti community and next year is well pride and the theme for World Pride is gather dream amplify and so we said okay we're going to build an entire conference around that thing.
Around those things.We're going to gather all of these die first veterinarians.When their voices and their stories, we're going to gather them together.ER so people so they can actually tell their stories and they can actually be heard.We're going to dream about what a diverse and inclusive Veterinary profession.
Looks like all of these ideas in these concepts of what we think that should what we think that we want that to look like closed captioning in lectures.Truly sort of gender inclusive.Workplaces that provide leave for gender affirmation and all of these dreams, sort of we're going to Get them together and then we're going to amplify our voices so that it actually hurt.
We actually get something to do something to change and we don't stag night and we do actually we do progress.So that the two-day Summit is sort of where Khalid a summit because we just didn't like the word con for well, I didn't like the word conference but the two-day Summit is roughly split in two.
Those three parts in that order, gather, dream amplifier.So the thing with 20 different speakers and panelists, all from diverse backgrounds.Everyone who's involved in running and organizing.
The Summit is from a diverse background.Yes.So that is that is tvk Summit on the February, the 27th and 28th, which is a Monday Tuesday of next year, which is two days after parade.Mighty God for I'd think most people know what Mardi Gras parade is in Sydney today.
Nowadays that sounds amazing.Get other people go I'm feeling excluded oh absolutely there's something for everybody so it's four people form from diverse backgrounds and allies because you know it's for people who would like to foster a more inclusive environment in their clinic or their workplace and you know we recognize that while I might have my own diverse characteristics Sick of being Aboriginal, I don't have the living lived experience of a trans or gender diverse person, but I do consider myself an ally and I'd like to learn how I can be a better Ally.
So anybody who would like to learn how they can be a better Ally and how they can learn about the lived experience of people from a whole range of diverse backgrounds and lived experiences, there's something for absolutely everybody.
And I think everyone like Hubert you've come from a background that I've got no concept of.Like he's so if you lived in a country that was incredibly, literally torn apart by sort of by racial tension, you know, that's a diverse experience.Like it's it, it's about sharing everything and everyone coming together and trying to create something larger out of all of these different things and not making everything the same allowing it to be different.
But also In where the connection points are and allowing us to connect to each other.I think we got to wrap.This is epic.I love it but there it's do podcasts.Favorite podcasts.Or shall I listen to a lot of podcasts?
One of my usual favorites is called queens of the Drone age, so it's a panel of four women who work in Tech journalism.Just I'm on a bit of a tech nerd.So like to listen to that and they talk about a whole range of different things.
I also listened to one called stop podcasting yourself, which is by two Canadian Comedians and they just talked about Out, nothing and everything, and it's hilarious.Okay.That's going to be my own, my listen for the my next commute like that.
Okay, what about you?Lat I'm sort of not a podcast.No, big podcaster.I do listen to kill James Bond, which is basically it's like a movie.They started off doing going through all of the James Bond films and reviewing them all but from the perspective of what they said about masculinity Through the Ages ago.
Yeah.So it's hosted by three trans people like.So the to trans women and non-binary person, but one of the trans women also does Video channel Abigail for the.So she does philosophy tube, which is also worth the watch if anyone sort of fits into the whole.
Like the you to be sort of Style version of podcasting.She does a very good job of lots of philosophical topics.Like how, you know, should we have the death penalty?It's like doing a degree in philosophy.Its she presents it so well.
Okay, the one bit of advice.So let's say every veteran a new grid of the world.Attend your event next year and you have a couple of minutes to give them one message for the vet careers cam.You should.Last.Gosh there's a few that it's it's hard to narrow it down to one ice cream.
Yeah, always more ice cream, that's it.That's a given forgiven.I think holding onto your sense of community.I think that holding on to the community, they felt in vet school has been something that That has been a huge source of support for me and my classmates, and then broadening that Community to other people.
I've worked with or connected with, like Kate, but particularly in my early years just after graduation, I think if I was speaking to vet students, which I often in the fortunate situation to do, it's that nobody will really understand what you've been through.
Like, You're graduating colleagues and particularly currently, with the vet students who have had to go through their degree through covid, through doing all their lecture content or more online or in all the challenges that comes with that, it's been hard for them to maintain that sense of community because they haven't been able to do things together.
But I think it's a really important group of connections that you make that really Helps you early on in the career.All right.Mine's probably going to go back to a an old thing that I actually said, and I still like it still holds for me, I would be say be true to yourself, and I think that it's kind of comes across as a vacuous statement, and I hate it when it's sort of used in a vacuous way by the whole spiritual gurus, but I'm really meaning true.
True to yourself.If like know who you are and be true to that and it's hard, it's really hard because most of the world is going to want you to be who they want you to be, not who you want to be and who you are.
But when you are true to yourself and you find people who value you and this is where it does Link in a bit to cams thing about Community is that when you find people who actually see you and value you for who you really are that on, that's just about unbreakable.
It's just about unbreakable and and that that can sustain you over.Almost anything.So we have that password on question, we try out the new question, where we get the previous guest, to ask a question of this guest, and then you guys have to ask question of the next guest.
So, the question I got last time from Michael was, what is your average Sunday look like, okay.Well, usually it's a trip to local cafe with my partner, Joe, but invariably, and it's certainly true of the last two.
Sundays.At least probably more, I'm a bit of a Bunnings fiend, and I just seem to end up there.In fact, I've been known to go with people who are going to Bunnings, even when I don't actually need to go myself, I will go on trips with other people, just so I can wander around Bunnings, a bit more.
I think, I just like to wander around and think of all the things that I could make not necessarily actually do it.And I just like to Dream a Little Bit of Ali's things that I could put together.Yeah, it's a very, it's a, it's a bit weird.No.
There isn't a laugh, is it's a laughter of complete understanding and empathy?I know exactly what you mean.I love it.I'm just gonna sear each of you to now is wandering around bunnies, just going, yeah, yeah, I could take that really connected into that middle.
Would turn into this entire Vet Clinic being constructed.Now, like on the back of a trailer.It's first on the web somewhere.Yeah, my Sunday is much like can starts off.
You see was going to church and having a coffee or morning tea is Tara.But then it will usually consists of me.Either going for a swim at the local.What do you call those things sort of fitness place.Jim that could fit Leisure Center.
Yeah, they just Center.That's what they call them now that he's or preferably going for a surf as we discussed just before we actually started this podcast.And, and I think because water is my calm spot.My brain goes a thousand miles an hour.
Sometimes, as I think you can probably tell from this podcast, and I water is the one thing that probably comes my brain that being able to be really fully immersed in the water and just feel the fluidity of what that is, like, the sense of becoming one with something.
That's so much larger than myself.So yeah, it's the one spot that comes my brain.And, and the one thing that I really need to do and if I don't do it, On a weekly basis.Then terrible, tell you, I can come very, very, very scary of how fast my brain tries to keep on going.
Yeah.Same thing.I totally get it but things and water.Yeah.Alright, okay, what is your question for my next guest?Yeah.So, perhaps along a similar theme.Do you have a place?
Where is that place?That's your calm spot.Yeah.Where is your place that you feel that one and you can let yourself just be dog.Then what do I do?I thought maybe we could share our final question which is the magic pill question of if you weren't of it.
Oh yeah, what yeah, what would you have been?But you have to have lost all of the experiences that you had.As a result of becoming a vet and would you do it?Would you take the pill?Oh, gold.
Okay guys, thank you.So, so, so much.That was magic.You guys are doing important work, you courageous, and what you do and in what you share, and I think it would make a change.I think over the long term, I believe it will make things and thank you for what you do it.
But thank you so much for your very generous time.I met Bob.Thank you.Say okay, thank you for having us.Okay, I promise you at the start of this episode that I would tell you more about the role and offer an AES Manawa where I work here on the Sunshine Coast, I'm going to have to start with aware of this job because seriously why anyone wouldn't want to backup everything that I own and move via is beyond me.
I literally sold my own red business.Moved my kids out of school, sold my house and drove for, just over 10,000 kilometers to come Livia.Before I'd line up any work just so I could serve the warm water points of new, said that I discussed.At the beginning of this episode and Hike the rain forests of the hinterland and swimming waterfalls with my family and that's not an exaggeration.
I've done all of those things just this last week, so there's that next.I think we should talk about the reasons.Why you probably think that a job in emergency is not for you.Number one, you think that you lack the skills that you not a good in a vet and that is all life and death, Blood and Guts and high-level stuff with pipe, sticking out of animals and third cardamom reason.
Shit.It's Really not and you really have the skills to start with us.The vast majority of stuff that you see, an emergency is the same stuff that you deal with in GPL and just sometimes at different hours and without appointment, same shit.
But in the dark, well we don't do that with anal glands and vaccinations and chronic skins and heaps of revisits and dentals.If you love dentals, then this job is probably not for you.Don't get me wrong.They are life and death things and pipes and tubes in their economies.
But it's Not the expectation that you can do all of those things from the start, we have people who support us and who love that stuff.And if you want to learn all of that great, you're in the right place, we have a mentorship program for experienced GP visits, where you will get one-on-one body shifts for six weeks with an emergency.
Clinician who is completed or is currently studying memberships and all AAA team members get free enrollment in the 19-week animal, emergency service accelerated emergency program.Run by our sister company improve International.National, which is the only program of its kind in the world.
This program is designed to get you feeling confident in, emergency, in four months and we'll get you some new letters behind your name.Once you finish it.You can be doctor XB V SC F cert CC C which stands for foundation certificate in emergency and critical care.
And most importantly, all a DAT members get free access to the vet V clinical podcast.What a forward-thinking company.This is Excuse number two, I can't do tonight.I get you, I did a lot of overnight work for almost a decade and it's a challenge for sure.
It has its perks though.My original motivation to start doing, emergency work, was twofold.I wanted to see my kids more and I wanted to serve more both things that are very hard to do when you spend the majority of your daylight hours inside of a hospital.And for five years, I loved my schedule.
I was always one of the only dance at school pickup and parent helper days.The only only person under 60 in the gym at 10 in the morning and probably the only one in the surf line up.We didn't have to put a 60 to get in the water when the surf was good, but it's pretty well accepted.Within the company that night work is not something that most people can do forever, which is where AAA really shines because it's a big company and a growing company with many roles to fill and many new roles developing that we don't even know about it.
There are multiple Pathways within the company that does not involve saving sick animals in the middle of the night from leadership and management.Went to daytime clinical roles.We are 24 hours here on the sunny coast and I personally haven't worked after 7 p.m. for two years now and outside of my clinical work, I get paid to make a team podcast for the company and to go have coffee with are referring read practices.
So yes, we do diets.And if you are a rock Turtle disposition, well you're in good company here but there is much more than just that Excuse number three, I'm just the new grad.Very, valid point, I ran an emergency clinic in Perth and you wouldn't have wanted to work for me as a new Grant because I didn't have the support systems in place that you needed to thrive AES has an amazing new grant program in place.
Not just on paper, like some job said, promise all sorts of amazing mentoring and support but really, in practice here's what it looks like.One-on-one body Shepherds for six months with an emergency condition who has completed or is currently studying member Ships fortnightly Jenkins with the vet manager to discuss progress, Satan track goals, and managed challenging cases for the duration of your internship, as well as access to the courses and resources, mentioned above, trust me, you'll be fine.
Our newbies are a little bit spoiled actually, just the way that it should be.And I can guarantee you that by the time you've been with us for a year, you will be well, ahead of most of your classmates in terms of skills and knowledge.Well, maybe not for vaccinating in Spain.So now that some of your excuses have been addressed, here are a few valid reasons why it might not be for you.
We mentioned rejects a lack of long-term.Follow-up with clients is a genuine thing.If you get fulfillment from ongoing relationship with your clients, you won't get that with us.Number two, if you like Orthopedics.Nope, we're not for you number three.If you want to do a lot of space, not going to happen here.
We do have some younger team members, who do shifts at the rspca or elsewhere to make sure that they don't lose those skills.So it's not necessarily a one or the other kind of thing.Number 4, I'm comfortable where I am and to be honest I just like going to work doing things the way I've been doing them for years, referring of the hard things, if that's you then maybe we are not for you a is has a culture of learning and continued growth note.
That's not to say that we have an expectation of perfection but you will be challenged.You'll be supported while challenged.We part of a group with some very smart and very skilled people.So help is always just a phone call away.But part of what a a tries to offer team members is growth.The company has an employee value proposition ie0 statement about what they want to offer their employees.
And the statement reads, we challenge the heart, support the Mind thrive on trust and operate with Integrity compassion and kindness, which I think sums it up nicely, if that's not your bag in, this isn't for you.Now, let's talk about some of the other good things and let's start with a ea as a group.
So just to explain the business structure, the Clinics are part of a parent company called animal, emergency Australia that takes care of most of the background work.And let's each Clinic focus on high quality clinical work or they take care of marketing and Recruitment and HR and supportive team well-being, which I know is a term that is thrown around a lot by everyone in the industry, including recruiters.
But also at that often Rings empty, once it comes to actually taking action to do something about the employee well-being, not the case at a, they have an entire team that just works on ways to make it A better place to work at from practical issues like how long our shifts are and better workflow and organizing Ubers when you're too tired, to drive to ongoing leadership and self development training, free to all employees, like access to our animal emergency well-being Hub, which is our own online health and well-being program.
We have access to Fitness passport, which gives us heavily discounted access to a range of gyms and pools, Etc, as well as initiatives, that focus on personal financial Fitness and well-being, which includes an employee shareholder, scheme in the pipeline Financial Is it raining?And of course a decent pay structure because as I once told a client who told me that all you care about is the money at 3:00 in the morning.
No, it's not all I care about.But at 3:00 in the morning I definitely do care about the money and then finally a bit more about the clinic on the Sunshine Coast that this ad is actually for all the 1000 a branch as its Otherwise Known, we're not the biggest of the hospital's, we are more what I'd call a high-quality GP emergency clinic, we have specialist support, but we also Happy to refer things that need Advanced Imaging and Bones fixed and stuff like that will have anything from 125.
It's on the floor at any one time, depending on the time of the day and the day of the week and roughly double that in support staff, which even includes a specialist TCC nurse which I didn't even know was a thing until I started working here.We're in a newly refurbished clinic in our own space.So everything is all shiny and new.
I won't bore you with a list of all the toys at your disposal other than CT and MRI.We have it.Our clients are nice.And I know it will add say that but it's generally true with the vast majority of people willing to go quite far with what needs to be done for their pets and a high percentage, who will go all the way to ventilation and referral for MRIs.
And the full Works will have chill days.And, of course, we have mental days.When the hospital is full of two, cases in a waiting room, full of people waiting to be seen, but on the whole it's not the 7 hour, wait times kind of emergency clinic that you hear about.So you might be thinking, yeah, that's what they all say.
Then you start there and you find out that things aren't perfect and that there are many things that actually annoy you about your new job.So is this job perfect?Does a of all the problems that we face in weight life.Sorted out.Of course not, things could always be better, but here's why I work here.
And why I am genuinely happy to do this ad and don't tell them, I had probably have done it for free.I believe in the vision helping Richmond professionals to do and be Best, I believe it because I see people take action to make things better every day.
Better for our patients and better for our team.Sometimes plans don't work, so we try a different approach but every week, it is a national meeting where any team member can join in the raised, the concerns bring suggestions and be heard.And every week, some little thing is better than it was the week before.
So is it the perfect job?Hell no.But next month, it will be a better job.And next year Will be significantly better.And one of the reasons it will be better is because we'll have you on our team to help us make it happen.If this sounds like the kind of place where you'd like to have your impact while building an incredible life for yourself on the Sunshine Coast shoot, an email to our vet manager.
Dr. Travis AT&T Worthington at AES dot email which now that I read it out, looks like it says to our think tin or contact me first to get more honest feedback at Fayetteville broadcast at gmail.com.

Dr Kate Toyer

Dr Cam Raw