Dec. 1, 2022

#82: If it is to be: Dr Michael Archinal on choosing your own adventure, a side-career in media, remote indigenous dog health, and using gratitude as a shield.

#82: If it is to be: Dr Michael Archinal on choosing your own adventure, a side-career in media, remote indigenous dog health, and using gratitude as a shield.
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Season 1

Dr Micheal Archinal has been a vet for over 35 years and is the senior director of 9 veterinary hospitals. He has post-graduate training in animal behaviour, acupuncture, dermatology and pharmacology. Michael has also had an illustrious media career that includes 13 years as a weekly guest presenter on Channel Nine’s Mornings with Kerri-Anne and  21 years as an ABC radio talk-back host, as well as being a regular contributor on National ABC radio afternoons. He's a long-term columnist for multiple publications and the author of  "Animal Wisdom", which has sold over 10,000 copies. Michael also helped to establish a remote indigenous dog health programme in Utopia in the Northern Territory where he still volunteers and which saw him nominated as an Australian of the Year Finalist for the ACT in 2016. 

Our conversation covers Michaels's journey from struggling practice owner to building a large group of vet hospitals, the joys and challenges of working in remote communities, how Michael makes hard decisions and how he deals with less-than-ideal outcomes, his media career, his fascination with the human-animal bond, the importance of ongoing learning, gratitude, and much more. 

Go to thevetvault.com for show notes and to check out our guests’ favourite books, podcasts and everything else we talk about in the show.

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I really needed this episode this week.Let me put a time stamp on this.It's the first day of December about a week after our live event, that we had up here in Noosa and I recorded this conversation with dr.Michael our Channel, about a month ago, maybe even a bit longer and I've kind of Forgotten what we talked about.
So here's why I needed to hear it again.I've been feeling a bit flat this week.Last week's conference was such a high and the lead up to it.Plus the week itself was so far Out of my comfort zone and I'm experiencing that inevitable cortisone.Withdrawal syndrome with an accompanying cocktail of emotions, including Elation over-analysis moments of self-congratulation punctuated by bouts of excessive self criticism.
And all of this infused with a solid dose of good old exhaustion.If you think about that feeling, you had after big exams at vet school, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.All of that preparation and anticipation.And then once the pressures off your body just goes, Okay, stuff.
You buddy.I'm taking a break, whether you like it or not.So I didn't really feel like editing or releasing anything this week but man, am I glad I did it listening to Michael?Talk about is incredible, Choose Your Own Adventure kind of career that goes from lying curled up on the floor with just for sausages in the freezer to being in a place where he can have an impact on some really big picture problems, learning, how he makes decisions how he deals with bad decisions uses gratitude as a shield and really Seems to be having a lot of fun along the way, as totally lifted me out of my funk.
And I think it will inspire you to It also reminded me yet again, and you think I would need any remaining after 81 podcast episodes, but it reminded me of the incredible community of people that we find ourselves in.In this profession, I had the same thoughts last week at a conference.
I was sitting in a room with 35 of you after a spectacular, lunch, looking at everyone around me and I actually felt quite emotional.Now I can face that the wine menu was really good.So I may have been a dad more emotional than normal, but I was watching professional.David church and Prop Joe medicine.
These two really smart and accomplished but really modest and kind people share their lives accumulated.Learning with so much passion and care to know.Tons of people have sacrificed, 20 hours of, they're very precious time to learn about the intricacies of a handful of unique diseases, just so that they can take better care of the 10 or maybe 20 patients.
That they'll probably see per year with those condition, I also heard conversations about work, kids money, And hopes and dreams plans, struggles, and some darkness.And I realized that, at the heart of it, maybe we weren't getting together, just to learn how to manage diabetes, better or what to do with jaundice cats.
We were connecting, we were sharing our light to help chase away some of that darkness, and to make things better for our patients for ourselves, and for our community.So, thank you for being part of this community.Okay, enough of my musings, dr.
Michael our Channel.Who is dr.Michael our Channel.Michael's, been a vet for over 35 years and is currently the senior director of nine veterinary hospitals.He has postgraduate training in animal behavior acupuncture, Dermatology and pharmacology.
Michael also has an illustrious media career.That includes 13 years as a weekly guest presenter on Channel, 9's mornings with Carrie and and Sonia, Krueger and 21 years as an ABC radio TalkBack host As well as being a regular contributor on the national ABC radio afternoons.
When he's not talking his writing from a regular column in Dog's Life Magazine, two more recently, his own book animal wisdom, which has sold over 10,000 copies, but because Michael doesn't like being lazy.He also helped establish a remote indigenous dog health program in Utopia in the Northern Territory where he still volunteers and which saw him nominated as an Australian of the Year.
Finalist for the ACT in 2016 and they He's more but I've talked enough.So I will let him tell you more about it.Please enjoy dr.Michael our Channel.Thank you for joining us on the vent valve and morning here, where we got to start so many wide things to talk about rygel, you do so much.
Should we start though with a question about bad decisions?Lead to good stories and whether you agree with that statement and if so have you got any examples for us?Hmm.And I'm a big fan of listening to the podcast.You guys do a great job and contribute beautifully to the profession.
And look, I don't think there's such a thing as a bad decision, right?So I don't Read that statement at all.And I think it's a really important thing because I see both clinically and also in business that people get really Paralyzed by decision-making processes.
And if they think that there's going to be short term, bad outcomes, it really hampers their ability to move forward.I'd rather make you know ten decisions and get nine of them, right in one of them wrong, I just keep moving forward.So I think there's not bad decisions with it was only bad outcomes.
You make the vision at the time with the relevant information, you've got in the situation that you're in and that's totally appropriate and you just have to learn to respect, you know, you in the moment.I'd like that.But then how do you mentally and emotionally deal with those bad outcomes?Have you ever struggled with then looking back at and a bad outcome and going like such an idiot?
I made the wrong decision initial I could have.If I didn't I would have this could have happened I don't know if maybe, but we'd all be millionaires and you know, everything to be perfect, wouldn't you know?The sea, just got to learn from your mistakes and you got to be grown up enough, to realize it.
We're just not perfect.And we're going to make mistakes all the time, but as long as you make two good decisions for one badge, at least two moving forward.But really this analysis of people not making a decision because they're just paralyzed who I think, really stops.People moving forward in their professional career.
Yeah, I can probably attest to that personally is overthinking stuff and they're not doing anything.Still happens to this day.Really, You think too much about things and you don't act?Yeah, and that's where I'm coming from.Yeah, so I'd love to find out about your story.
Michael, you do so match and I even Googling you, it's a little bit of story there in a little bit that there.How does one become the director of nine clinics?Is that correct?Yeah that's understand it correctly.That there's director mean owner or like in your own all of them or part own.Some of them or manage or what.
What does it actually look like?It's over nine.Hospitals on got Sensational business partners in this.Hospitals as well.So it's together.I own a joint ownership across these known.So, how does that happen?How do you go from vet student to owner of nine hospitals?
Okay owner.Yeah, you find yourself here.Actually, as it turns out, we're just talking about decision, making processes, things and opportunities Arise at certain times, that you make decisions there and you end up in certain positions.But how did I get to nine?Well, we started off.
I had a very big hospital.I was headhunted up to Umbra to work in a large field, hospitals, and succession planning partner, I'd set up my own practice from scratch but only been out two or three years, I think down the south coast of New South Wales and I was a student at this hospital.
So it's a good little tip for any students, listening to.This is if you want to work in a place going to your placement there.I ended up being here, 200 up there and then we saw the rise of the corporates coming, and we thought gee whiz.We need to be a bit of a critical mass to be able to offer some sort.
Of alternative because I had the opportunity as well to go to the US and meet with the CEO and CIO of Banfield and UK with goddard's, a really got onto the inside of these guys.And I didn't really want personally didn't want to head down that path, and I wanted to give the opportunity to other veterinarian said I've had as well.
So few opportunities came up and there were some older gentleman selling practices who also wanted to sell within the profession and so very quickly.Quickly, we had a few hospitals on board and I got to say there's a huge difference between owning one hospital or to hospitals to then leveraging yourself across nine, right?
So the information in the skills you've got when you've got one or two absolutely won't serve you once you want to go pass that once you're leveraged really early.So then we also had people approach us.They wanted to go into business and we'd we kind of pulled up stops at about five hospitals.
We said that that's enough and but then people said there I want to go into the industry.I don't Our don't have the IP.Can we do a joint venture with you and get on board?And so that's how we found ourselves at 9:00 and I don't regret any of it.You know, we've got a great team, great Partners lovely, people were all got the same philosophy.
So just to recap so you started your own business, a couple of years out of uni, you start at border practice or started from scratch and I started from scratch.Naivety is great, isn't it?We I left you in 87 and then worked for a fellow for a little while down in the in Highlands and then went up to the country.
In Northern New, South Wales, large animal practice, and then three years out, open my own from scratch.I had an eight thousand dollar overdraft.And at one stage, I had spent seven thousand nine hundred and sixty dollars and I had for sausages in the fridge and a six-month-old lying on the ground going, maybe my boss will take me back, you know, but it was one of those called kids moments.
You know, your burn the ships and you go.All right, away we go and And I think that served me really well, you know, just that real sliding doors moment, where I said, well, we're going to give this a red-hot.Go Red Hook crank.So with the for says, it's stage.That was while you are owning.Was it shortly after starting the practice.
And it hadn't picked up yet was that the motivated to work harder or, you know, work harder, work smarter.I'm a big student.My mum was worked in a library and I'm a big reader.And so, I thought to you is, I don't have the skills here and this is, maybe why?
Practice isn't doing what it's meant to do.So I read read, read, read, read read.And you know, it seemed to stick an accord with the community and the way it went.Standard books that you read it, that will get two books later.But I've have to ask you, if you said you read read, read is that it?
Was there a one or two books that made a massive difference to how you ran things or how you thought about things?Yeah, sure.And and we might get onto this bit later to I had I've had the privilege of having a media career for quite some time and I've made all these amazing people.There's a guy called Robert Kiyosaki who produces the book called Rich?
Dad Poor Dad.Well I got to have coffee with Robert Lee's wife, two hours in The Green Room.Just personally, you know.Wow, just amazing.Right.Well, that book, it just shows you that.Well, to me, I grew up in a bit of a poor family.My dad died the day after I was born.
There was five kids under five and so, we're almost put in foster homes.And so, I realized from an early age, I always worked from his, I was very, very young and I realize from an early age that it was going to be, it's up to me, you know, nobody owes me anything, right?And so when I read Robert, kiyosaki's book called Rich Dad, Poor Dad did really struck a chord with me and I thought, wow, we, you know, No, I really need to start to think about the bigger phases of business.
Now that I actually have these in practice that I'm trying to get off the ground and that really struck a chord, that's for sure, the e-myth by Michael Gerber.These are all older books and I think books, find your the certain time you're at in your business life and help you at different stages.
So you had the practice it obviously started working, it made some changes that turned it into a more successful business.And then you said, you were headhunted to go and manage another It was this while owning this business, or did you sell that and then move along?Look, I had to sell it because, you know, they were, you know, finances were always a problem.
So, sold the business and moved up to Canberra as a succession planning partner.So join the practice straight away.It was 6 minutes at the time and by the time I left it 15 years later, it was 13, vets went, fantastic.Just you know, this is the greatest profession, there is the veterinary science, right?
I can tell you the reason why I know that is, if you go to a dinner party, not unless there's an astronaut is actually landed on the moon.You're the most interesting person at the dinner party, right?Everybody wants to be a vet and we know it's hard, you know, it's really hard but nothing comes easy and if you really commit yourself to it, it's really is the greatest profession.
So, I'm lucky I've got the luxury of having these opinions right?Because I got into the Vet game when it was a different Beast than it is now.And the pressures that put on us as individuals or from way way different, you know, the phrase, Would often be outed actually on our well, at least you had to go or you did your best or, you know, it's not the that's not what happens.
Now the expectations of clients are very, very different.So I joined in Canberra and on that and then very fortunately got surrounded by some, I'm not very smart right clinical setting and surround myself with very smart clinicians and boy.
Oh boy, they were just brilliant all with their memberships and UK diplomas and it was a fantastic.The Heap of fun, good ride.And then we noticed that corporates coming.So I had to change the tack a little bit and stop being so clinically focused and get a bit more business-focused.
Now, I want to ask her about that because you I don't know what the timing of it is, but you've done a lot of clinical extra stuff as well.So the normal trajectory that I tend to see in people as is the clinical years, you up, skill and work in your clinical skills.And then very often then leads towards some sort of ownership or leadership role.
Something like And then that takes up more and more time and it becomes more interesting to learn about people in management and finances.So that becomes the next stage and often the clinical stuff then becomes secondary or if not completely left behind it seems to be the almost Natural Evolution whereas with you there's the lot of extra study you've got the acupuncture you've got the Dermatology right?
Yeah, pharmacology as well.It's a it's a wide range of interesting things that I'd love to double-click on it.Some point all those ongoing, there's clinical interests, or are those in the past?First no, no, no, I'm going and you have to have relevance as a practice owner and you have to know what's going on.
Because to make an appropriate decision, you really have to understand the systems and processes at work.And if you're not keeping up with what's going on medically and the trends within the clinical scenarios of practice, you're making bad decisions.Specifically those sort of things though that the dermoid did because as I said, I was surrounded by really smart people and everyone hated skin, right?
And so I thought well, what No, I do this and, you know, at least I can contribute somewhere and like anything the more, you know, the more you enjoy it.And I just love doing demo now.Acupuncture I did because I was a skeptic, there was a vet in camber who was an acupuncturist, and she left to go to Victoria and we would refer cases to her and she would get what about that cases, better?
And so I was the biggest skeptic of all.So I went along and did my Chinese medicine degree.Animal behavior has a set.I've had a big media career Here and seventy percent of the stuff you get asked, is got to do with behave yourself, from should know, something about that, rather than just give an uneducated opinion.
So that that's weird.Let me down that path as well.Dipstick, you say, if you don't stay up to date, clinically you make bad decisions.Do you mean bad clinical decisions or bad business?No bad business decisions.As I said, I've always got, I don't work much clinically now and I've got once again, always surround yourself with very smart veterinarian.
So, I've always got someone I can fall back on but it's business.Not knowing where the trends are not knowing what the latest, you know, what's out there.That's where you make your bad decisions.I find that fascinating.That's, that's very true.
If you said Trends, do you mean friends?What a clients wanting or what clients want you know, what veterinarians want?What pieces of equipment that really will make a difference?They're not just a toy, they'll actually make a difference to the quality of the pets that are in your care conditions of your employee.
Kids that I work with, you know, what's out there in the industry?What are the expectations of Staff?You really need still to be on the ground and I think that's part of a problem where we in a mistake that's made.When you get bigger, practice groups, is that a lot of people step back, or they're not got an intimate knowledge of the veterinary industry.
And this is back to your question about their decisions.This is where bad outcomes made decisions are made and then the outcomes aren't as good as they could have been.So how much clinical work are you doing?Michael only a morning a week?Do you spread yourself between the different businesses or how do you, how do you devote enough attention to them?
All?Now, what we do is part of the ethos of our group is that we really want them or locally owned locally run have their own individual personality.And so I will fill in if needed if there's a problem at other practices on short notice, but predominantly, I manage one or two practices and that's right.
Put Focus.Most of my time.You still enjoy the clinical staff.Okay, love it.Absolutely love it.I've got, you know, as you go on in your professional career, you get the ability to realize when something's not right and recognize it really early on and also you know what, you don't know.And because you've got that luxury, you can say to the client I don't know.
Or we're going to refer this and clinical work becomes a lot more fun.That way you're not expected to know every answer every time.Yeah truth is it's almost like your expectations of yourself are lower just in a way.Weird way, you don't feel you don't feel like it's a personal failure, if you don't know, you just go.
Yeah, I just don't know.And I'm, I'm okay with it.Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.That's right.There's no ego anymore.You go too long since left the building.I like what you said Michael about.I hated everybody hated him.So I did that.
I often think that about it is a strategy, even in terms of adding value as an employee to yourself, do your own pocket is too.Look at the gaps in the business, where you work in and say, well, why does everybody hate doing and let me get really good at it because it's often we hated because we're not good at it.
And as soon as you become the master of that thing, and you the person that people in say, hey, can you help me with this case, that it sort of gives you a confidence and you feel better about it?And then suddenly you're actually more valuable employee as well.We can probably negotiate your salary better.If you say, well, I turn 100,000 a year and ERM maybe more.
Yeah, absolutely.You have a special skill, you know, question.But it also Translates to the business side as well.I hated numbers and accountants and balance sheets, and PLS.And then I suddenly went, it's the same exact design philosophy or something.Well, that's a bit ridiculous.So then I went away and really learnt a lot about it and now, you know, I love it because I know a bit about it, you know, when I get to talk about it for some reason, you know, the Tom Waits song Big in Japan.
You ever heard that?Yeah yeah.Well I make sure you Japan all the time I've been there heaps and you know three D cool country visits and do webinars for them.And so for some reason I resonate Japan but it's all about the business side and so about the numbers.And I really, really enjoy that, you know, spreadsheets and hot sheets and kpis and sounds very boring, but exactly, I'm listening to you guys that for several reasons.
Those things.It's not even that I hated that.I get it.I get anxiety as soon as I sit down with a spreadsheet or something.To start.Getting a was a panic attack, maybe I should Take your strategy and learn about it.Why do bad?How did you ban happen as its two vets or to any businesses?
So sorry, just just for we leave that the reason I really got involved in this as I thought if we're going to run a lot of practices, I've got the responsibility for 146 employees now and I've got a responsibility to look after them and their families so you know I can't just be stupid about this.
How did your pan happen?I got the opportunity to be part of the launch of a heartworm product through.Japan and got over there and it's all about respect in Japan.They're just such beautiful people.So, I learn some of the language.
I spent a while learning some Japanese and also about the Japanese culture.And so, we got over there and they were blown away.That anyone would be think started think enough of their country to have learned some of the language for this.And so they really took me to heart, and from the back of that, then a practice Management, Group, picked me up over there.
And then from Um, that other groups picked me up.And you know, when you speak to six hundred bits in one room as I did in Osaka, there's always people there who, you know, know people and thing I just got to be good.So, I was Flavor the month there for a little while.That was good.Fun.
There's a country that I own nothing about the vet profession.Is it a very big profession?Is it, is that it so like, talk about that for hours, but couple of really, really interesting things that struck me was, they don't actually have any specialist qualifications.So, So if you want to be, you can go off and do them right but to be called a specialist in Japan, you just need to be recognized by your peers that you're good at that, right?
So if you understand, there was one guy who was a dermatologist, right?So here you just don't lots and lots of study and he was known as the dermatologist and because they are really seriously all about respect.That guy was a really good dermatologist even though you haven't done these American forwards, right?The other thing that really struck me was space is an issue.
Of course.These practices were tiny.But the vast majority of them had not only a CT but also an MRI because about 60 to 70 percent of dogs are under 5 kilo and they're all fracturing, the radius is and owners and getting nonunions and they all heart disease.
So these MRIs and CTS were running all day long, and these guys will phenomenal surgeons.And just so highly qualified, it was really real eye-opener as to how it was, which was practiced over.They're so what can we learn from them?Did you learn stuff from Japan that you brought home to your businesses?
Yeah, of course you come back, very, very different.What I really liked was the fact that I realized that you don't have to practice fitri science the way you think it's practiced.There are lots of other Alternatives out there so you don't have to be practices that just work, you know, all they Sundays or open till 10:00 at night.
You can choose your own path.Is lots of room in the marketplace.For this is lots of lots of work.Out there you just got to choose how you want to do.The work doesn't have to be cookie cutter.So is that a no more of an approach there that it's more Nishi or people do practice and in different ways and different practices they've still got a you mean in Japan?
Yeah, yeah.No.It's still very, very, you know, the society, they're beautiful people, they work really, really hard, really hard which you know, that's just it's not the Australian.Well, you know, we worked really, really hard to hear to but Australian culture is very different It wouldn't change.
Tell me about the media, career, we had was that?Because, because of vet, or was it a military before with?No?No, it was because of it, that was really good fun.And I think I suppose God benefits 35 years.Not many people have great longevity in their career, but I think I've been able to read that myself a lot of times.
So I get very passionate about things and get bored as well.So there was a show on telly called animal hospital and they're looking for a new presenter and we had a mentor to you.Had a really big practice at the time.So they came down this to come down to sit in the waiting room and feel for the day and then they wanted a new presenter.
And so they got five people, they liked on camera to do screen tests and I got the job and lo and behold, they did just decided not to go back into production.But what I did and I wrote a letter to the producer and all the people who I knew from this show that there was now defunct, thank them very much, you know, really followed up Quite heavily and, you know, 18 months down the track one of those producers was working on.
Another show is a lifestyle show on channel, nine in the morning and said I know a bit so they contacted me and it was a lady called Kerry and Kelley and for ten years I was on that show every week doing a pet segment and that's where I got to meet amazing people and just had the most amazing time and heaps of fun.
That was really good.Wouldn't do it for a living.But you know, No, as an aside they used to fly me up first flight out of Canberra in the morning at 6:15 and then I was on the plane home coming home after lunch.It's pretty well when you seriously.Yeah, really why you say you wouldn't do for a living, why not?
What's the, what's the downside?It's really Cutthroat and I really, yeah, great people on, you know, just solid human beings.But, yeah, that's a really different, you know, they've done so many studies on personality profiles of the We don't match anyone else and you look at all these other Industries and they're just not for me point of seminar.
Once there was a guy who climbed Mount Everest quite a few times.And now what he does is just do corporate events and talks to people about his experiences.He does this scenario and he gets everyone in the audience to be part of and have to make decisions about what's going on.
It was a real life scenario where there was people stuck on Mount Everest and other groups stuck somewhere else and he would Proposed these questions.And in one of them was that there was this potentially a group who are stuck on another side of Everest.
But no one was really sure.And that would mean you had to cut your trip off, not go.Just in case there was some other people, right?And you go and save them, the only group of anybody here spoken to worldwide who were empathetic enough to go and do that or Veterinary ins.So yeah, yes, so we really are different, right?
And that's why everything really affects us.Quite heavily.You don't think so.But we really are different human beings and I think and they're the people who stay in the profession and the people who I think tend to leave the profession, it's just too tough because that's that's what it is.
That's the territory we're in.So, is the differentiated because I often think that rates are different, but it also, I'm weary to not, just because I'm part of that group and we think everybody thinks they special, right?That my story is different and special to everybody else.So, I worry that sometimes we make too much of how we are unique, but then speaking to other business people and people who try to make I've done marketing courses and business courses and that often, they will be this thing at the edge.
The Vets are different, dates are harder to Market to, they have their own unique traits.So you mentioned, Empathy, is that the key differentiator, or what are the other differentiators?I think it's huge.And I think that's part of our downfall as well.Gordon Parker who wrote this Sensational book called burnout.
Yeah, we had them on the Vodka, he's just everyone should get that book.He talked a lot about that and I think he's really hit the nail on the head.That's why we do struggle with mental health issues in our profession, because of that.So what's the secret to maintaining the long Korea if you are this, if Mostly these deeply empathetic people in pathetic away.
Sympathetic empathetic people.How do you stick it out?What are the strategies?That's the sixty-four Thousand Dollar Question, isn't it?Mmm.You know, so many smarter people and I've tried to answer that for me in my career at you know he talked about electronic medical records and I started before they were thing so that the scrutiny just wasn't there, you know?
And as I said, I'm never I was never the smart.Stidham in the Block.In fact, if you're the smartest person in the room should go to another room so I don't know what's the answer.I don't have it for you.I'd go to a happy place.I know my triggers.I'm you know, I'm pretty self-aware.I do a lot of mindfulness things.
And when I say mindfulness is for Meats, not coloring in or jigsaw puzzles, it's I go bouldering and you've got to be very mindful there.I play a lot of golf and you really in the moment.So those sorts of things protect me from the exposure that I openly give to, Clients at work.
I was just going to say one last thing, I practice with a an internal sense of gratitude, so I'm super thankful.It was funny.I took out this practice.I thank all my staff when I go work for coming and I thank him when I go home and I took over this one practice and I think this girl, this nurse I said thanks so much for your work today.
She said, what do you think of me for?She said you're painting but the turtle sense of gratitude, I'm thankful that the clients come in.Yeah.And I think that really that I'm really helps that keep seeing this.Pop up.Everywhere is the saying of not, I have to get to.
So when you have to do something that might seem hard to say, oh the negative way of looking at it as I have to do this thing versus reframing and thing I get to do this thing in tastic.It's all the self-talk, you know, 75% of the thoughts.We had to go exactly the same thoughts we had yesterday, you may as well.
Let him hear yourself talk, right?So the empathy that I've understand Giuntoli.Eating and trying to find out more about empathy.I don't have an answer but I have a good question I think that could potentially help us find the answer so I discovered this book my psychologist go pull Bloom the books called against empathy and the premise in the book is that empathy is not a great driver for decision making and the theory behind it.
So if we dig deep into the definitions and it is getting a bit semantics, but this difference is so empathy /, his definition is an emotional response.Ponce where we feel the feelings of the other people.So I feel my patients pain or the client that's upset about losing their pet.
I feel it and they do functional MRI studies where when they scan people feeling empathy, they show them videos of other people getting hurt and stuff like that and you literally get the same areas of your brain, light up as the person in pain, and that is a negative emotion.It weighs you down, whereas when they look at Compassion, which they describe, as I can understand.
What you're going through but I'm not actually feeling what you're going through.So you need that to be able to be a good vet because I do feel very strongly.What I used to call a theory is essential for being happy as a veterinarian.If you lose it then on there's no point doing the work we do but he says we should shift The Compassion which is I understand or like, I get what you what you're going through but I'm not feeling it.
I'm not sharing your pain but that understanding drives me to want to act.So where is empathy can be a disabling emotion of so hurt and emotional that.I actually can't.Can't do anything, whereas I get it and I want to do something and I want to help you and that's compassion.And that is actually a very positive emotion, that keeps you going that keeps you going, which is a really cool idea.
Okay?So therefore you've got that knowledge with you now.Do you want to ditch being empathetic and just become compassionate at encourage you to read the book because a lot of people argue with them via midi saying no, no, you can't ditch empathy.According to the book we have to.
I'm not sure about it yet but he says because that Empathy can make you make bad decisions as well because you're making an emotional decision.It's not a rational decision, so a it weighs you down and be, it actually affects your in terms of bigger decision-making.Sometimes you'll let's say, there's a scenario of a single animal or a single child or some somebody who's suffering versus a global scenario with 100 children starving somewhere, but the one in front of you, when did, you can see it's gets that massive and pathetic emotional.
It's going which might drive you to make a decision to favor this one.But and there's a research supporting the saying that people will make really nonsensical non rational decisions based on strong emotional and pathetic responses.So according to him, yes, we have to ditch empathy in exchange for compassion, but I'm not saying it's the how is, I don't know.
How do you do that?How do you, how do you make that shift?How do you stop it from actually wearing you down, and make it turn it into a positive emotion.Yes, I'm not sure about We are still looking at it.I'm still trying to read about it, which and that also raises the question.If compassion is such a positive emotion, and drives you to take action and do good things, where does that leave us with compassion fatigue?
Is there?Such a thing?Are we actually just fatigued?We feel compassion, so we drive drive drive, and we actually just get physically fatigued, you can get caught up in definition, can't.Yeah, that's that's my little side street.Michael was all this stuff you do.I, you still doing the media stuff now?Or is that past thing?
Everything has its life cycle.And I got to write a book and what happened on the back of that because that was caused to my TV exposure.Then a company contact me to write a book on the human animal Bond and because of that, I got a HEPA media work, you get legitimacy soon as you got a book doesn't matter if it's good, bad or indifferent, right?
And it's sold 10,000 coffees, that we really well.But I kind of got bored with the media stuff.You know, you know, as I said it has, it's rough.Had heaps of fun.So I do victim here, and then stuff that I want to do.So, the book animal wisdom, that's about the human animal Bond.
Yeah.Correct verb.Correct.That's the basic theme of the book.Yeah, well first of all in your own words, what how do you define the human animal Bond?What is it?What is it?Yeah, look, it's a hard one.I mean, his classic dish and issues about a mutually beneficial relationship and but I always say to people, it's a little bit like a beautiful piece of art or music.
It's really hard.To describe but you know, it when you see it and so in the vet game that translates to, you know, it's unbelievable, you just see them front of you everyday, the bond between the person and the animal or it might be the science behind the fact that autistic kids do better in a classroom with, you know, guinea pigs up the back or how you see, people have the same medical condition as their pet.
You know the drop in blood pressure goes on and on and it's all that sort of stuff that we just.Coming across the console table day in day out.So, when Peter McMillan said, you know, we want to write a book or do you want to ride it on?It was the science behind the human animal Bond and it's going to take about animals going into hospitals, all that sort of stuff.
It's going to take about 10 years before we have a bit of a societal shift, in Australia, to really embrace the benefits that pets bring to society even more, but it's getting there.So why was that your choice of book is it just because you saw it, like, what was your trigger to go?
I want to find out more about this and I want to talk about it to the world because you also do talks on.It's your thing that your soapbox.Yeah.Yeah.Yeah.One of them what was the driver?Why did you decide to talk about this?
Tell me why is it important to get it out there to the world?I looked at from the outside to what can I write about?As I said, I'm not really smart and Chloe so Narrow the field up a bit, but it was just the stuff that came across the desk, all the time, all the time, and I got to go to the u.s. quite a bit once again on some fantastic trips to meet fantastic people.
But I'd go to all the answers zoology conferences and see these signs being produced.I thought people need to know about this, you know, it's not mainstream and yet it's it's life-changing.So I thought this was a great vehicle to do it, just incredible stuff.And in fact it was one Tipping Point.
One story that made a mine who was the surgeon Sydney University few decades ago and he, so he's pretty smart guy, you know, surgeons, you know, they're like, all right, thanks man.So he was in a consult room one day.He worked this cat up and there's husband and wife are and he says to them, I look, I've got bad news.
You know, the cat's got this tumor on its plane and it's called a blah, blah blah, right?So you know, it's not looking good and the lady faints in the console room, right?And so I might go.So you know, that's not good.You know, everyone comes back.Back to Earth and he in they said, look, we've got a tease story.
He said my wife was diagnosed with that exact same cancer.So really rare one, right?My wife has diagnosed with that exact same cancer, six months ago.And the cat used to come and sit on her belly and she used to pack the cap and say, the Healer will make well the Healer will make it well, right.
This is all we were stuck and so and then suddenly she goes back for MRIs and CTS.There's no People cancer in her body and now the cats go.And so they then spent the next half hour, having an ethical decision about what they would do with.
They treat those the cancer in the cattle or not.But look, it's one of those stories.And as I said, this is a surgeon at Sydney University.So it's not, I mean, it's anecdotal, but it comes from a very reliable source, so that sort of stuff.When you hear that, you think you know, people need to know about.
This is really cool.This is why we good dinner companions right?Around the dinner table.Yeah.Yeah, yeah.Well, especially with your research.So with it, other things that you've discovered in your research about this, that just blew your mind or change.The way you interact with your network, the things like when pets know when their owners are coming home.
Yeah, they've done all those studies where you know, the dog is leaves half an hour away from the office and the person picks their keys up in the office and the dog goes to the front door in anticipation of the owner coming home.Or you know there was one great case with a Horse where this girl used to go and visit her horse half an hour Way Drive that way.
And the horse, always you and we'll go to the corner of the paddock.Anticipating the owner, right?And then one day I went to the other Corner, The Paddock, and the people, where was being adjusted to it?What's going on here?Well, that day, the owner decided to catch a train to the station and walk to the paddocks, instead of drive a car.
So she entered the paddock sanity.Yeah, that sort of stuff but man, we know so little It's a big time commitment to write a book that when you ran all these businesses, you've got all these other things you do.How do you decide where to divide your energy?
Only, if my life by that Corrido principal, you heard of that the 80/20 principle.Okay?Yeah, wow.Yeah. 80/20 principle reps.So I find the 20% of Staff that's going to make 80% of different.Sorry for people who don't know what that is.
The 80/20 principle.This guy perrito back in Italy.Centuries ago realized that 80% Of the wheels was held by 20% of the people and 80% of crime is committed by 20% of criminals and it goes on and on.
I was at a seminar once with Sam Bowden and he got people up and it turned out in the seminar 80% of the shoes were owned by 20% of the people.Some people had like 80 pairs, you know?So and I did right around that on my client base on my database and it wasn't quite 80/20.
But Thirty percent of my clients gave me seventy percent of my income.So what I do is I laser focus.That 20% I've spend a lot of time working out what that 20% is of the topic and I just laser in on that.And so I managed to do a lot more staff with my time, he course at 80/20 principle, you know, we're talking about decisions again, I make stacks of decisions, right?
Stacks and stacks and stacks, by get a lot of them wrong, but I get most of them, right?So I laser focus at 20%, so when you making those analyses to see what's going to be the biggest impact, or we should focus.What are your metrics?Like, what are you hoping to?And I'm asking for personal reasons because I struggle a lot with still trying to allocate time.
For all these interesting things that are out, there are all these opportunities popping up.Deciding, what are you hoping to achieve with that laser focus?Well, obviously depends on each scenario, doesn't it?It's like clinical work.If I could do a lot more clinical work but I wouldn't have the leverage of being able to help my vets currently I'm much.
Better off stepping back and leveraging myself so I can help them with case management or whatever and releasing them.That's just a specific example.You know, I as I said, I play a lot of golf and you know, I focus on the 20% of my game is going to make 80% of difference.
And you just got to just got to realize that and be comfortable with it and just go, I can't be all things to all people.I can't do all things all the time.I can only do this bit, but gee whiz.I'm going to do it well, I skipped over a question.I wanted to ask when we were talking about the human animal interaction and the bond.
You said earlier, in the, when we talked about it, about a societal shift, that will take about 10 years to happen.Is it happening though?Have you been?You've been a bit long enough?Have you noticed a big shift in that human animal Bond?Interaction, pricing phrases, that dogs are gone from the backyard to the bedroom.
You know you now ask clients, not does your dog sleep in the bedroom Umm, but are they under the covers?That's the extent of it, isn't it?You know.So it does it does it ever happen that you get out of bed and go sleep on the couch, so they become comfortable.Oh yeah.
Just a mess.And it's we've seen it in when I started in rural practice.Remember of case once, where a fella came in, he said if it costs more than a hundred bucks to fix this dog, don't bother and estimate was $105.And literally, the guy said don't bother.And now we've got pet health insurance and MRI Zone.
Yeah, he made it.Major change for the better for both for the better.Yeah, and same thing I've been doing it long enough and I also had the shift from South Africa to the UK to Australia, and I feel like, there's a, I don't know if it is, maybe maybe if I go back to South Africa, it'll be different.
But I feel like there, it was more the if it's going to be more than x then, don't buy that, that sort of approach.Definitely for the better because you get to do better work and we get to do the thing that we trained for want to do.But do you find that It adds more pressure as well.In terms of expectations on us, is there a negative side to it?
Sure member I mentioned earlier in the discussion.That, you know, I've certainly was greeted by the phrase many time early in my career.I've well at least you had to go, you know, you did your best.But now, you know, we can't keep up with the level of medical knowledge that we're expected to know, and I'll go back to the 80/20 principle.
I'm competent at Dermatology and I'm not great.At cruciate surgery so I get someone else to do that.So I can only do the what I can do and but I do it really really well.So I think we just need to and you've seen in specialization in the vet field, you know, they used to just be orthopedic surgeons and ophthalmologists coming along in our got ecologist and list goes on and on.
And on, just got to know what you can do and what you can't do.And what you can do, do it really well and don't try and do everything you just can't, but the identification of what's abnormal, what's normal?That's a really important thing.Is that just come with time?Yeah, unfortunately.
Well we could mentoring.You know, I was on an SBS TV show about the Mental Health crisis in the wedding industry and one of the Vets there was an equine vet and she'd been through a horrible stuff.
Will she now works with me as a small animal vet and so I'm able to be there and and she'll, you know, just say I would you think that is no go.Yeah, we need To that one's in trouble or no.No.That's or other company or K and, but that ability to discern only comes really quantity time in the profession.
I think that's up in a big stressor.When you start as you lack that, it is almost like a sixth sense and is not a sixth sense, I've found it.Interesting learning about how your mind works.It's subconscious signals that you pick up and you can't, you talk about mentoring?Sometimes it's hard to explain.How do, you know this thing that you know, you know, it's that.
I just know.It's going to be okay here.But how do you know?I don't know.It's just like, I could tell I saw it wouldn't walk in the door that it's all on the flip side.When they walk in the door and you can immediately go, Oh shit.Have you ever heard of river read a book called Blink by Malcolm Gladwell?Yeah.
Well, that's exactly what he talked about in that book blink.It's just that bang moment.Tell me about dog, dreaming.Wow.What's Doug dreaming?Wow, that's a great Christian.You want to talk about our work in remote indigenous communities?
Yeah.But that's why, when I read about your work there the phrase is it that way you guys are working in Utopia Back In Time Country wintry, Holy Quran.Yeah, the dog dreaming stories that there's a hole in the earth up in the Northern Territory, where the dogs can merge, they are.
And so that's Typically dog dreaming country, right?So we quite easier now.Gosh, you 10 15 years ago, my business partner Allison, and Bill Taylor and I there was a need to provide services to remote indigenous communities.
So the people up there, couldn't access veterinary services for various reasons where we go.English is not their main languages second or third, they're very remotes, 350 case, Northeast of Alice Springs, dirt roads.So we went up there, we've got Got it up on the traditional owners of the land via the health clinic to go up and help them because the dog population controls out of just just insane.
We're not, they started it, desexing program and treating for internal external parasites, and it just went gangbusters went fantastic.We so much.So the impact on the human health, regardless of the animal health was so significant that we got nominated as a CT finalist for Australian of the year.
I mean really It's like it, it's insane.The different.So we got a 32 communities now and it's all volunteer basis.We could ask it's our staff.We take a team of about seven or eight people.If about a week, got a storage unit in Alice Springs without anesthetic machines and we head off into the desert and come back a week later with thousand stories and big smiles on our face, but I skip back to Doug dreaming for.
So we've got a bad lot of non-australian listeners.Can you tell us about the dreaming things in general, explain for people who don't know what that's about.I'm going to fall back into local people sort of speak in that, it's not my story.So it's hard to tell then that's the nature of the people.
And so it's just the cultural level of telling stories about the world and they.Yeah.And how it will interact with each other in creation and where everyone sits and who has to look after what and who has to manage what and how they all interact.And so complicated.It's when we swim, we go up there.
We say it's not like going to another Countries like going to another planet.Yeah, really you have to come on, darling.I'd love to.Yeah, so I've done, I've talked about it before, just breathe covid.Go started getting involved in similar work in Indonesia and lombok specifically, right?
And again that ignorance of going yeah you could just walk into a village and start working because my profession they was that most of the dogs are and ironed and kind of a best I thought.And I was told that they didn't particularly like the dogs and we can just go in and start work and it's not the case.
We got Is that a village one day?They really valued those dogs.I just didn't have the same.They don't value them the same way as they don't sleep on the bed, but they still have very valued important part of the community.So there's some good lessons there.Yeah.Totally.And every job you signed by someone and they've replicated, this in Johannesburg as well.
Like all around the world in lots of these places, they've shown that we dog.Population is a problem, it's very similar, they're all got names.They're all lined up on those who but they may culturally interact with them on a different level and that's what you see.See when you go into these communities, they think we're crazy by the Aboriginal people at where we go.
Think what we do with dogs is in saying that we leave them in a house and we got to work for 10 hours and then come home and expect the animal to be fine.Where is up there?They're just roaming, free in a pack of 30 dogs outside, you know, with life happening and they look at us and go, you do what?
I had those same thoughts in lombok because your first instinct when you drive around and you see suffering in some Style is because they know they don't have the same level of care.So when they become unwell or sick or when there's too many of them and you have puppies dying of hunger, it's confronting and painful to see as a waste of time.
But then the other dogs are ones that are healthy and strong and they have the best lives.He's run around her back fighting and shagging all day.Just doing things that don't love doing.So I would look at them.Go.Yeah, these are real dogs, a they live the life for sure.
It's just when things go wrong and it's then it gets really goes wrong for you.If you're out there and maybe when it has this, helped you at all, in your interactions back home.Because sometimes, we are faced with clients, very often actually who value their bit differently than us as wait.
Because I think we forget us weights.That we are.So animal focused.It is the literally the center of our world and then you get a client who doesn't want to spend the money or doesn't want to do this.I find that some people get really upset by that like what's wrong with you?Why don't you want to spend five thousand dollars in your dog?Looked at that sort of attitude, really comes from being the professional long time.
I think more specific than just being exposed to what's happening in the outback.You can just never judge people, you don't know what's going on in their lives and as long as they're respectful, then the decisions they make.You just got to respect that decision but the things you do learn coming back from places like working in the outback is you know I talked about gratitude boy.
Oh boy you know we just won the lottery living in Idea.Nipping on the way we do, it's just the greatest place in the world and you certainly the old skills.You pick up though, is you learn how to deal with what they call Cheeky dogs, they're not cheeky it's clean Tiki.
We had to wrestle some dingoes at one stage and you know, these are wild Savage dogs.Yeah, you come back and put caboodles there and You Gotta Creep its nail.It's enough.Bring it on when the Chihuahua try to bite.
You laughing ago.You've got nothing.Wait.So how do you practically do it?How do you handle the cheeky dogs out there?They always want you to bring him low gun.It's like, man, we're that suddenly come from.
Yeah, like that.How do you know what's really cool is the way they handle their dogs up there?Really different?So if you can get one of the locals just to, they literally just put their hand on the door.Dog.Dogs.Don't have collars on.There's no fences.No, nothing, right.The dog will just stand there.
Did steal went to a theme.It's this bizarre thing and then you use a 25 gauge needle little bit of farm sedative.Well, a lot of sedative give me subject Aeneas ejection and you watching like a hawk for the next five minutes while they calm down.Sometimes the local people will put them in the vehicle for us but usually got to wait until they said eight and then we draw them back to a central area that we have set up as a makeshift operating theater.
So what when they have the hands on them, they won't turn and snap.Yeah, I usually just use And you just and once again, you, you know, it's this real quantum.Physics e thing about relationships with animals is they kind of know if we experienced and we're not going to hurt them.
They trust you a little bit and so it's enough to get a 25 gauge needling.You can't pick them up, they're just go crazy, right?You can get a 25 gauge noodling, that's love of Doug's.They fascinate me.I think they almost different species.They are so wild and it's weird if you drive around the town, On a scooter or something.
They're not worried about you at all.As soon as you walk around just looking at them, it literally just look at them and they like, something's up grand grand going on.So, there we have to doubt that we use the blow darts.That's only way you can or can't get near them and they will, they will attack if you try to hold it.
So it's a good phone, I'll pick that up, I'll take you too long walk.If you think, Michael is a topic that I've said, I'd love to talk to you about it just because of all the things you do and teams that you manage and all these different situations is difficult conversations.
We touched on on clients who have different values to you, and don't always want to follow your recommendations and then specifically conversations with with coworkers as well.When there's a disagreement or as a as an owner and manager giving feedback that's not always nice feedback.
Whether you've learned something over the years, how you approach this in a way that gives you the best outcomes.Goodbye tomorrow.Instead you get the stuff that you deserve, and if you don't make hard decisions, then it's your fault.And if people aren't fulfilling your expectations, you haven't been clear enough about what you're expecting from.
So, you've got to take a lot of responsibility on your plan, yourself initially.And when that is opened, then on the table, for people to see runs like this.So I'll do a staff review, and if there are things there that I'm not happy with, I usually find that If they're not doing what we want them to do, they're not happy in their job and so my opening Gambit in staff reviews.
Is a Mary you're not happy what's going on and get them to talk.If you get a buy-in by the staff, you'll get an 85 percent compliance rate.Whereas if you tell them from the top, Mary you're not answering the phone.Probably marry.You know, your route to the clients.
You get a 35 percent change in attitude, so it's critical and it's almost not worth doing unless you get buy-in from the staff member and You have to help the staff member realize that they're not happy.I realized why they're not have the and then we have to coach them to resolve those situations.
So make sense.Hmm, does, how'd you get that buy-in by helping them realize that what the issues are?So helping them realize that they're not happy?Like I've only ever sacked.Two people one was from gross misconduct and the other was just a lady who Just a bad cultural feet.
All the other staff dive help moved on, but people know, you're genuine.They have to trust you in the staff.They have to know that you've actually got their best intentions at heart.And so, you have to develop a high level of trust with your staff.First, to be able to operate on that level, they have to see that in, you have to live out your life in such a manner that they respect that, and then they'll take that onboard.
Whereas if they see you as a bit of a fraud, they're not going to listen to a word.You say, Just as the feel like that's one of the key things with all these sort of conversations, where they, it's with staff, or if you if you're not officially in a leadership position with your co-workers and and then clients as well.
I find that's one of the huge things especially in emergency workers, really quickly.Gaining trust with a client, so that they can get that buy-in.If you figured out ways to make that happen quickly, specifically talking clients now, like, how do you get a client to trust you, with the life of their pet and their wallets in a 10-minute consult?
We've got to be, you've got to let them tell.Tell you, right?You've got to listen and classic GPS that take eight seconds in a consultation before they'll interrupt the patient.So we need to just listen and then you've got to find that 20% that's really important to the client, right?
The 80/20 rule and that 20% is going to make all the difference.So you know they'll coming with an issue in your must need to find the reason behind the reason and it's fortunate for me.I mean, I've been a vet 35 years and I've got silver hair, you know.
They come in and immediately my physicality so much that they go, okay, great.You know you're done this for a while.You must know what you're talking about, I don't say too much.I just listened a lot and say, okay that these are the issues.And this is what we need to do.I don't offer people choices.
I think that's a mistake.You know, I we can do ABC, we can do XYZ, I say your dog needs and I use the word need.So what we need to do here and I'll tell them why, you know, in your case, we need to do cytology so I can tell you what's in there.
And so I can give you the most appropriate treatment, we need to take some blood work because otherwise, we're just pissing out we because otherwise you confuse the crime, they come to you because you're the expert agent, if you're a new grad, you know, way more than they do.So, they're paying you good money.
They want your opinion, not, you know, some wishy-washy thing, just make no stay back.Ooh, the decision-maker thing again, right?Keep hammering that it's not a bad decision.Is going to make one.Yeah, I hear that quite often is well, it's up to the client.
They have to make the decision when we guide them and what we want to do and I'm with you I don't think that's fair on the client at some point.They've got to make a decision but they don't really have the deeper background knowledge to make those decisions.It's like I always say if I'd when I take my car to the mechanic, I just want them to tell me what I need to do.
I don't want them to say, It will end.We can do this or if you want to we can check the filter because I don't know.I don't understand cars.It's your this is your job.Tell me what to do.People are time poor, you know.Yeah, yeah.Now by the time they come, you did Google would come to you because they want to know what you know and what your advice is.
The I just wanted to get back a step.You said to be apply the 80/20 rule with gaining, trust finding the 20% That Matters to the client.So can you give me an example like white, what do you mean?So dog comes in.In and you look at it and it's really itchy and you know hardly any skin on it and and the owner comes in and says I brought it in because the dog you know sleeps in the bed and it stinks.
So I'll focus on the malassezia dermatitis.It's got even though the poor bugger is got a cops or its scratching It Go all over the place that will come but I will address the problem that decline has brought the dog in for and I'll Respect to that but at the same time I'll catch it in the big picture saying, okay we're going to do that but what you need to do this as well so just finding out why if they actually come to see me you know there's a classic case where we were the third or fourth opinion on this case.
And this dog had a standard poodle had one of those at a no Marie, things on space and the previous vets at all said, don't worry about just cosmetic.Leave it alone, right?So I listened to this God, her father had recently died.Died of a facial tumor.
So every time she saw this benign adenoma, she was catapulted, back to the emotions of losing her father right now, without listening to this client, and finding out what the driver for her for coming into the practice was, I would have been as guilty as the other three but I said, yeah, I understand what's going on.
Yes, it's cosmetic.But I understand the scenario here and this was affecting the human animal Bond and I said, you know, I have no problem at all.Then in rectifying this I want to ask you, I'm busy vegetable.Curious about the acupuncture thing on the clinical podcast.A, while ago, we spoke to an acupuncturist as well and I'm, I'm like, exactly like you.
I'm learning more and more or hearing really positive things about it.But skeptic, because of my assigned seat background, it can be hard to.So, Ru Ru Nan.Skeptical.Are you using it in Daily practice?And if so, how are you using it?So acupuncture, if I was to advertise, the fact that I'm acupuncturist, I'd be full time.
I'm in the need, the perceived need in client is huge, but I use it as a western trained veterinarian and so I use it as an adjunct therapy.Like I would nutraceuticals in Austria arthritis or and I'll put it in my multimodal treatment plan.
But I rarely use it as a main modality, there are better things to treat animals with an acupuncture for lots of conditions and that's how I use it.Am I still a skeptic know I've seen?Workers in animals, come in line and go out, not lying and all that sort of stuff.
But it's not the Panacea right at all.Why do you think Western medicine was developed, right?Because there was a need for it.That's right.Mainly for paying for my psoriasis and things like that.I think that you used in good Ford, that's not in that basket one.
We think it works.Really, really well with his fecal incontinence, which is interesting.Yeah, yeah, yeah.You know, those dogs that have that issue.It's fantastic anyway but I use it mainly for osteoarthritis for dogs.For some other reason is a multi-modal approach and needing quite a bit that would be absolutely 95% and then if somebody comes in wanting acupuncture is specifically for some specific condition, I'll see whether I think it's an appropriate thing or not I mean it's well recognized that it works appalling lie in dermatology, you know.
So there are times and I'll say to people and you know, this isn't what you need, what you actually need is directs raised, right?To diagnose what I was problem because I think it works well in our modern clinical setting.That way gives me a different approach and I get lots of people coming in with different things, like CBD oil, you know, they want to know all about it.
And so did shifts me to keep up with what are the trends out there in the alternative therapy space?Yeah, there's a lot of resistance to that in our science minded profession and I do sometimes, wonder if we should try and be more open to it because that's what people are asking for.
But it's hard though because you don't want to Sell stuff that's not going to work, but if people are the out there on the internet, looking for other stuff because that seems to be the trend in human health.How does your the business group?How do they approach this?I think is so, what's really a thought?
Sounded really important to keep an open mind and the reason you need to keep an open mind because you're not going to change people when they're really stuck in that Paradigm.But what we need to do is profession, we need to be advocates for our patients and if they're suffering, because they're not being given the I tripped serapis.
We need to be advocates for them and stand up and say, look that's not the best therapy.So if you can come across when people come and talk to you about alternative therapies and say I look like hear you that's fine and show some knowledge behind it as well.You just not just packing it off to the side and respecting the clients opinion but then saying yeah look that's okay but do you know that this works 50 times better or this were much quicker when your dogs really in pain and we need to do these, that's where I find.
Me, a lot of times people come to me, wanting acupuncture for first opinion, based on osteoarthritis.So, we really need to work your dog up first, and then I know I'm doing the right thing by the pic, so they get a fool in Orthopedic workup.And then we give them our normal multi-modal approach, rather than treating the acupuncture straight up.
Her say, I'm not saying that's the wrong way to go, just the way that I handle these things.Hmm.Now and I think the fact that you have knowledge about that stuff gives you more authority to About it.Whereas what I often do on what I think, what we often do is just just resistant, they're just going to, I don't talk about this is, if that's the stuff you're into, then you're at the wrong place.
We do it this way.Whereas you can say with some Authority because you have the knowledge about it.Yeah, that's cool.I understand but here's the other side of the story and they probably more likely to listen to you because of that.Charlie, what a luxury ladies?Huh, it's great.Okay, I think let's start wrapping up.
I've got a couple more if you okay to keep going.So your red, your business Owner your acupuncturist of some sort and even your media career was animal sainted.If Michael wasn't a veterinarian, what else would you have done with your life?
Well, question, it's a really hard question, is them because I do this and I love this.And as I said, that is the greatest profession that there is, what will I do?I'm very risk-averse and mozzarella really goes back to the 80/20 principle, right?
I really get that 20%, right?So I don't make those bad mistakes.What you're talking?Before wrong bad decisions.So I'm really risk-averse.So I had the opportunity when I was a kid to play sports professionally and I turned it down because of the unknown so I probably would have done something like Dentistry you know where you go into uni and you come out at the other end with an actual degree that you then do a job that has a defined career path and that's I would do something like that.
Even law would be a bit.Hard for me because I don't really understand what the direct career path is.But I do with and I like science so they'll probably something is board.Sorry, not as boring as did a story.I've got a great way to again, it's this something steeple is that let's say, you know, because I'm risking first while eldest son.
For some reason, says, he wants to be a dentist.I'm like, yeah, I find her that that's it's safe.Exactly, for that reason, you'll be.All right, if you were doing this, Michael V.We've mentioned a couple of books.Do you listen to podcast at all?
Look, I'm not a big problem, cast listener and the reason is I have a real problem with quietening.My mind, it goes 24/7.I've got notepad next to my bedside table that I'll wake up and I'll see your stuff.I'll write it down and I just can't stop my mind from thinking of a thousand million things.
And so I find any time I'm I'm in the car.I tend to either have nothing on at all, no music or anything, which is, I assume we must people listen to their podcasts.I do actually listen to your podcast, I don't listen to the clinical stuff, right?
I'll listen to the other stuff because I really like trying to find out what makes people tick.And I think you do that quite well.So I'm not a big podcast listener because of that problem I have.Yeah, fair enough, I'm an obsessive, bikers list that I do.Sometimes think there's a price you pay for that.
Is that lack of just means, I think, probably a listen to stuff for the same reason that you say.Is that the quiet mind because if I don't have something to focus on their my mind's going, but the here and there and there and I sometimes find that quite quite exhausting really, because there's all these driving along and I've got I should do that.
So I'd like to do that or here's another idea and sometimes it's nice to just go while I listen to somebody else's thoughts were a little bit personal curiosity so that's how your mind works as well.What are you thinking about?Is it to-do lists or new ideas or where does your mind go and how do you stop it from being exhausted?
Because I find it exhausting, my mind goes in Every Which Way Direction often all times of months you know it might be the current issue that that's Intend important at work, it might be how I'm going to get my next project off the ground.
I'm very, very keen on Extreme poverty overseas and helping to alleviate that and stuff.And also we do a bit of work in the domestic violence space.So I'm always thinking about how I can get traction for that.I quietened down.
I fell into a bit of a trap of drinking, too much for a while, because that quietens your mind, and I know that's a problem in the profession.So, And had a drink for three years, but I do lots more mindful things.I think I alluded to that early on, you know, with my golf and my Bolder ring and that sort of stuff and swim in the ocean.
I'm not a good.Meditator my nose, seriously, good for you, but I just want that a real challenge.I'm lucky to make three or four minutes, which is you gave it a try.Oh yeah.Yeah, good hard crack.Yeah, it just doesn't gel with me and then I think was Gordon.Parker actually back to that.
Got here at the burnout book.I think he actually said, In his book that golf is a form of mindfulness and I thought Yahoo.So it's an act of mindfulness more than a sit and practice mindfulness for you.Yeah, absolutely.And then the next practical question, when you have all these ideas, what's your system for filtering?
All those ideas into the the 20% that matters do you write stuff you said you've got an iPad next to the bed.So you have you got it to do list and then you pick out of that what to do or it again.This is purely purely selfish.No, no, that's right.That's exactly how it works.And I'll investigate them a little bit, you know, along the way.
And then, I'll let them get in a subconscious and permeate for a while.And then, you know, the universe, conspires I'll make meet someone is in that field, and I'll end up hitting me down that way.So I've got it.Always got a lot of things percolating away seeing if there's any substance to them and that's okay.
I realize that that's a good thing but then I get to seriously passionate about a few things and I go.All right, I'm just gonna have to ditch the other 80%.I'm just going to just Has laser on of these guys, I could have a whole conversation just about that because that's a big issue again, because the more you do, the more opportunities pop up, the more you can do and you've got to say no to things.
What I'm going to do my Australian Institute of company directors, graduate program, because I think my next stage of professional career will be taking the exposure.I've had to the Animal Health industry that may be translated into a bigger broader sense at a top level.
So I'm interested to see how that pans out as in, you want to teach, or you going to do a course to learn more.I got you're not going in going and doing the course.It gives you a specific skill set then to be able to operate at a higher level.All right, so not a big podcast listener, we touched on a couple of books from the from the old days, recent books that have changed the way that you think about life.
A great book, Simon sinek.Finding your why?How do you know that one?Yeah, okay.That's a mind-blower, right?And so, when you find why you do what you do, the sky's the limit, right?And this is this work.We're doing overseas in extreme poverty and there's a great book called half the Sky by Christophe and you know, we can really make a difference.
This is a practicing in an eternal state of gratitude, right?We can really make a difference to the world and people by doing really simple things.Next, one of my big passions, it's going to find some traction over the next few years and just briefly two things actively on that.
If I can just do a little plug, one is just dump a little bit of money in a microfinance organization like kiva.org, they lend out money to micro businesses and that can the people pay you back and the other is sponsor a kid.Preferably it sounds terrible but preferably young girl.
We do through organization called compassion because there's a direct correlation with With reduction in poverty, when young girls are educated, I will put those links in the in the show description.Thank you for sharing those.So the why I love that book as well.I listened to it and it's Simon himself reading it which is really lovely.
What's your why did you discover the why?Because he really wants you to do it really succinctly, doesn't it?Yeah, I had that such a blessed life.There was a media company who invest a lot of money.Me one stage and put me through this program where An external Group found my why one of them really was, I thought they wanted one on a pet industry basis, one, and it was that I think everybody should own a pet.
So that was nice and reassuring.The other was though that one of my wise is financial Independence.Now, that sounds really weird in the context of what I've just been talking about.But if you drill that down and it came from the fact that we're almost put in foster homes in your kids and just have nothing.
And I never wanted to go there again and so that translates to the charitable work we do because I'm in a position now where you know we can help alleviate that father people, right?
And I think there's a real sense of responsibility that we should be doing that.We've got too much in Australia where to wealthy you know we have a responsibility to help others but this is back to the start.Again, I've got the luxury of these opinions.From where I am in my professional career, very fortunate.
I had this discussion the other day with another guest, it seems that the trajectory is almost almost a selfish, but self-focused to get yourself to the point in your career where you can start thinking bigger.So basically, you've got to make sure your own needs are met financially to some degree and often then people will go.
Okay well I'm I don't have to worry about where my A meal is going to come from and now I can start looking beyond that was that your journey or have you always been in the position where you try to take care of others as well?Or look, bigger Beyond, just making the next dollar.Sure, two things.
There one is.Nigel Marsh.I don't know if you've heard of him.Yeah, he's been on the podcast.I guess he.Yeah, he's just, he's just written a new book.It's not as good as these other ones, but he talks about these three trimesters of your life.The first one first, 30 years, you know, family, We're getting everything sorted.
Then it turns you for your professional career and then, you know, when you hit 60, then you can do that sort of stuff, right?And I think that's totally true, but I don't think that's an excuse for not doing something today, right?If it's going to be, it's up to me.And if not who, you know, if not me then who, right?
So you can still do something or be as small as volunteering for pets in the park or whatever, floats your boat in whatever area.I don't think it's just that.I've, as I said, I've got the luck.We're operating on a bigger level now but we do all have a responsibility.Before we wrap up with the last question that I warned you about the new thing I want to try and I'm stealing this from another podcast where they actually.
I like I'm going to have to send you a podcast link.It was a podcast.I listened to that Simon sinek was the guest which is a really gritty good but guard and they finish their podcast with.You need to give me a question that I'm going to ask of my next guest, but we don't know who the next guest is going to.
To be.Yeah, yeah, and interview you gave me a heads-up on that and thanks for that because I thought a lot about it, right?And I had a whole heap of the but I've come down to one right now.I told you that I'm really interested what happens is when people make sure and or you know, you here on a podcast or you go to a conference, I want to know why they're telling me that piece of advice.
What's behind that?Because otherwise, it's just a to-do list, right?Put your ejection three up.You know, I've been earlier, be kind yourself.You know why?Who are you, right?So, I reckon a question that I think would be appropriate, would be describe to me, your typical Sunday.
Now, the reason I've said that is you're going to get a real insight into that human being, right?That's your personal time, you know, a lot of people works at days or the depending on stage.Life is running around with kids at sports Fields, but someday comes along.What is it?
What do you do?You might be the president of something or the, you know, the halfback for some football team.But once he's just Sunday look like, so I just think that's a bit internet.A really good question.I like that.Now, am I allowed to cheat and ask that question of you.
So what we'll do with this, answer your question, Then I have to give me L have to give me the question for the next case, alright?So the last question you're doing a talk and it's not just Japan, it's the whole world.All the veteran in new grads of the whole world and you have a couple of minutes to give them one bit of advice, what's your advice?
Yeah, and look, I've had the benefit of listening to your podcast and hearing people's wise words, which just being fantastic.Mine, is back to a couple things.I said new grads.Congratulations.You're in the best profession on the planet.And it's a gift treat it as such, right.
And on that level, you're not the best, and you're not the worst.So be really, really kind to yourself.And that would be it.And hopefully I drop the mic and walk off the stage.I've got the bad guys.
They're both with them, Michael.This is magic, thank you so, so much for your time and I want to say thank you for all the stuff that you do.We always you say that.Sometimes I say that without thinking, especially this last couple of things you mentioned, they Beyond just our faith World thinking bigger.
Thank you for sharing it, and thank you for doing it.It's magic.Hey, good on you use.It's been a privilege and a pleasure.Thank you.Before you ran away a quick update on a clinical podcast series and what's in store for our subscribers, I told you about the conference but I haven't mentioned the details of the clinical content.
We recorded prefer David church and Prop.Joe medicines talks on complicated diabetes.Some amazing breakthroughs in thinking about and managing Cushing's disease that will change the way I approach these cases, some epic case studies and approach to the journalists had a beautiful explanation of all things, calcium and a session on net sneaky bastard of a disease.
The Addison's will be getting these out to our subscribers over the next few months, including the show notes, which will be the most up-to-date, and practical guide on these topics that you'll find anyway.And of course, they still more than 100 hours of previous content that you can dig into.Go check it out at VV in supercluster.
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Dr Michael Archinal