Oct. 20, 2022

#79: Exploring the trends, the myths and the facts around pet nutrition. With Shiva Greenalgh

#79: Exploring the trends, the myths and the facts around pet nutrition. With Shiva Greenalgh
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Season 1

Shiva Greenalgh is a registered animal nutritionist who specialises in companion animal nutrition in both commercial production as well as clinical and therapeutic nutrition for individual pets. She holds a Master's of Animal Science in Animal Nutrition and has recently completed a PhD in animal nutrition. Shiva's career journey has included roles as a wildlife carer and a vet nurse. She currently works as a nutrition consultant for pet owners, vets and commercial businesses through her consulting service Sydney Animal Nutrition, as well as a product development manager for a commercial pet food company. Basically, Shiva's job involves diving deep into the facts on a topic that many of us vets try to avoid, and she’s sharing those facts to help you make informed decisions for your patients and have better conversations with your clients about nutrition.  

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Give me a secret dying patient.Any day, it might be challenging, but I have knowledge and I've resources and I can make a plan, but please don't ask me about your new.Cocker spaniel Doolittle's row, gluten free, all-natural diet, with added turmeric, and blueberries, and should I feed it grain?
And what about a bit of yogurt?It's not that, I don't care.It's just that I feel very lost in the midst of the total information overload, and aggressive marketing campaigns out there.If you feel the same, then, In this episode is for you.Our guest is Shiva, Greenwich, Shiva is a registered animal nutritionist.
Who specializes in Companion, Animal nutrition in both commercial production as well as clinical and therapeutic nutrition for individual pits.She holds both a masters of animal science and a PhD in animal nutrition and her career Journey has included roles as a wildlife carer and a witness.
She currently works as a product development manager for a commercial pet food company.As well, as in Sydney animal nutrition, our own Raishin Consulting service for owners weights and Commercial businesses on all aspects of clinical and General Nutrition product.Development Regulatory, Affairs, formulation education, and media, basically, Shiva Dives, deep into the facts, on the topics that many of us try to avoid for a living and she sharing some of those facts with us to help us make informed decisions for our patients and have those conversations.
With our clients.That can be, let's just say a little bit strained.Join us as we pick about the trends.And the myths around Companion, Animal nutrition.So you don't have to just zone out the next time.A client starts a sentence with my breed is is that this breed has very special.
Dietary requirements will be catching up with Stephen next week.And to put a time stamp on this.We're releasing this around the 20th of October 22 in Sydney at the vet Expo where we'll be doing some live broadcasting and Shiva will be hosting a talk.You've heard us talk about it in the last few episodes but now it's imminent.
Our bags are packed.I have a special suitcase for my Equipment.We have our tickets for the boat, cruise on Sydney, Harbour, and we're looking forward to seeing you there.In fact, we have a challenge for you, come and find us next to the coffee shop, on the Expo, floor and bring some questions for us.
We want you to be the podcast there and will be the guests asked me and G any questions you want or broadcasted live.And then we'll turn it into an official episode.And they said it's a really embarrassing.So that is 26 and 27.October 20, 22 in Sydney at the ICC with, The veil Expo will be bringing the veterinary and animal health and paid keywords together with over 100, major Vet, and Pet product supplies, as well as some of the most Innovative startup companies in the link to book.
Your ticket is in the show description, wherever you listening to this and remember to use our unique code, vet V, 7t, all caps, 70.When you check out to get a 70% discount of standard pricing, that means your tickets for the two days will be 90 bucks or $105.
If you want to join us on the boat cruise, which you should, okay?Back to nutrition and Siva Grenache.Shiva.
Welcome to the red felt podcast, lovely to speak to you.Thank you for having me.I've been wanting to talk to trician for ages.It's one of those things that you kind of learn about it as a bit but also not like yeah, this important stuff there, but don't worry about that.That's look at all the drugs.
There's a bag of food feed that and problem solved, which at the start I have to have to declare my bias, that is how I was educated.I mean, it was, it was literally 20 odd years ago.That's how I fit dogs and I was a kid.It's kind of how my dogs eat good quality food.
We've done all the work for you.It's balanced.Feed that.So that's where I made to lie.I'm kind of stuck and I think a lot of its are of that mindset of just, keep it simple.There's something I should be honest for myself.I wish they could make a food that they then take away.
This is really bad as just eat that every day before.I yes, I know, just keep it simple but times are changing, especially for our clients that go.Giggling asking questions, they come up with some ideas.I was going to say random ideas but maybe there's some Merit in them.
That's kind of what we want to dig into.What's your bias declare?Your buyers are actually quite honestly I don't have a bias and I go very much out of my way to ensure that I don't because I can see the pros and cons for everything and it is very much a case-by-case situation and that said for some reason I do get a lot of inquiries from people.
Cause I'm not a vet, they think missing to project their views that I have the same view.So whether it's raw cooked predominantly those two or vegan vegetarian that I am the person that just does Alternate, which is absolutely not true at all.
There will be times where I will say that the alternate diet that they're wanting to do is absolutely not suitable for their pet given their condition.So very much, look at it case.By case I like to respect the values of the pet owner and what they wanting to do and seeing how we can work with that.
So I'm quite mindful of that, but I guess a lot of my role is to educate and really weigh up the pros and cons of what they're wanting to do.So try to be the voice of reason.That's what we need for his feet because I do think there's a perception and maybe Justified that clients almost have a lack of trust in us as vets when it comes to nutrition.
Shouldn't cause a like I just said, we don't learn a hell of a lot about it.And then there's that perception that be we're in the pocket of the food companies because once a duty, they gave us a sausage roll and brought me of being right now.Now, I'm going to have lifetime loyalty to them because of that either.
They asked us and a lot of us go.Well, I don't know if you want to engage in this topic, go talk to a nutritionist, which is you right?That's where we send them.Yes.And I do spend a lot of time.I would say half of the consult end up.Actually trying to break those myths with vets, get money from, but it's big multinationals and I have to also disclose to them that I actually do work in the commercial side of it, too.
And these are how things are actually manufactured.And so I do need to go through all of that and they do actually come to realize it.Go.Okay.Thanks for disclosing it.But yeah, there's a lot of skepticism about how pet food.Made.And I think the narrative, the historical narrative is somehow just still made its way to the modern pet owner.
Perhaps.Yes, in the 80s or so earlier, they probably weren't not weren't making it as good as they should.But these days, they put a lot of research and development.It's really important for manufacturers to do right by pet owners to create Good Foods.
It's not in their interest to create about food that's edible.Errors can occur in manufacture and animals can get sick, but by no means is anything.Deliberate and pet owners should be given the information and they can make that decision themselves but I really would like to break that Narrative of vets get money, certain people get money and that manufacturers are out there to kill your pets and the biggest one which it kind of infuriates me is this filler I hate filler.
Like I hate the term filler so much and I go, well, what does filler actually?What's your understanding of filler?It's kind of silence.And I go, the only thing I can think of, with filler using poultry feed, even with birds, at times, you need to add sand.
But even then, that kind of has a functional role for the bird but every ingredient that is put in the safe or a commercial food, it's functional.It has a role and Look at grains, for instance, grains have a whole host of micro nutrients that the body needs.
It gives the animal energy rather than needing to use protein as a source of energy proteins, not there to be energy.It's got its own roles.So these are the kind of things I like to go through, particularly, with pet owners.And yeah, I think they appreciate that kind of rationale.
The other one, I do get questions about is just like a allergies, for instance, That's another one that pains me to discuss, so there's a lot of projection, there are a lot of neurotic pet owners out there and they're like to project, we know there are issues onto their pit.
And so yeah, a lot of time is spent trying to actually problem-solve and go.Actually, I don't think this is really the case, your dog may not have an allergy because that's quite an extreme term to use.But perhaps sensitivities is a better way to look at it.
Yet we hear it all.So just to clarify, how do people end up with you?What prompts people to Google and want to treasonous?Do they have a?Is it allergy related?Or is it just I don't want to feed commercial food.So most of the issues that I deal with over 80% of the clients that I deal with, it is a condition and the biggest condition is kidney disease.
So, with their pets that they go to the vets and the Vets say, You need to go on a kidney friendly or therapeutic food and a lot of them are quite against it.They go will I can't have my dog eat this for the rest of its life.
What kind of life is that?So then they come to me in hope that there's other kinds of foods or other textures and tastes that.I could formulate for them that will be kidney friendly.And at times, I mean, depending on the stage of kidney disease, we can do that.
Then all the times I go, it's not really worth it.You're it's actually safer for your pet to be on the therapeutic food because there's just too much monitoring that you need to do.And yes, the food is Bland, the food will be Bland even as a home cook, there's only so much that you can do with the food and only so many ingredients that you can use as well.
But I guess people come to me at a point of desperation where they're not happy with the first opinion and the first way of treating their pets.So they come to me.Me, I guess to validate what they've been thinking, or to confirm that what their vet is saying, is actually correct or not correct.
So yeah, okay, that's really interesting.You mentioned a couple of myths.What are the most common myths out there either from clients that they misunderstand?So, we mentioned that the pet food companies are evil and out to kill their pets and put feathers and sand.
And if we do that.So that one, we know that's not a fact.But other everybody even from wits other things that we believe that you come across, that that's inaccurate.I'd actually say, vets are actually being good.And I think these days, most vets, they actually do tell their clients.
They go, I don't know, there are things, I just don't know, and it would be good for you to find a nutritionist, to help, you know, confirm, your thinking on things they go.This is all I know and I can only give you a plan based on what I know of anything further than that, you need to ask someone else.
So I can't actually say that.Have made things, anything worse.I think the internet has made things worse.I think Facebook has made things really bad.A lot of these groups and a lot of the startups as well as little startups of pet food, particularly in the fresh food space, I think it's great.
Look, I have nothing against treasury but what I don't like is having your marketing is predominantly based on thrashing other Foods where I know a lot of research and development has gone into that and that can and those foods can be really beneficial for some animals and people will look at that and you create so much confusion so I don't think that that is a good thing to do for pets and pet owners.
I think it's a very irresponsible way of marketing and I It's a very desperate way of marketing, if I'm to be quite honest.So whether it's fresh and raw Rory's a really prominent one, and unfortunately, due to marketing and certain books.
Apparently raw food can cure anything with tumeric.You have to add turmeric to it.Yeah, well, giving a bone.So there are things that just do infuriate me and I think do make things really bad and I just wish that people really do look at the essentials of these startups.
And you know, some of them might get ambassador's of a bet.But to be quite honest, the vets that they use a vet, unless they're specialized in area, you're a general practitioner and just like me, I'll never say I know about your pets condition Beyond from a nutritional point of view, I cannot analyze the blood results.
I can't do anything like that.So I think some people kind of need to stick in their Lane but isn't under Edward of the century, but that's a lot of the time.That's what I spend my time doing having to explain well what you've seen on Facebook, please ignore that lot of it becomes just an education, kind of lesson.
And I'm still having to explain to people that no chickens do not have hormones in them, they just don't and chickens.A good thing to do when your dog does not actually have an allergy to chicken, might have a sensitivity or there's something else.It's going on.Well, it considered to be allergic to the chicken, but it's not the hormones in the chicken, it's just the, the protein, isn't it?
This is hard to me, but there could be other factors as well, and it could have been a one-off.It's very multifactorial.It's nice for me to hear you say these things because I do sometimes wonder am.I too narrow mind?Am I?And the other things that I've missed and because I get bombarded field, sorry, for clients actually because according to my Facebook feed, I'm interested in Animals.
So guess what?I get all these ads, for all these foods and Ryan, and it infuriates me.And then every now and again, I do think, well, maybe there's something to it.Maybe I have been duped into thinking that a big brand commercial dog.Food is the is perfectly fine to feed, so it's nice for me to hear you say that.
That I'm not crazy.Well, I'm not old-fashioned.Yeah, yeah.But at least with the fresh food, I understand why people want to do it and I tell people, let's kind of look at it.And I always promote a combination feeding approach.So, if your dog's health, are you cats healthy, let's go, you know, for the sake of their mental health because it does bring them Joy when they have a bit of raw food or they have a bit of cooked food, that's fine.
Like we can do that.But on the other hand, I want to ensure that they are getting their micronutrients and to some degree macro nutrients, because a lot of those say with the fresh food, a lot of are actually quite poorly.Formulated with the energy, densities are not high enough.
It's not factoring in the fact that the animal will be exerting any energy, and I don't think that the micronutrients are quite there.Perhaps on a theoretical level, they're there.But if that were to get actually tested, it wouldn't be there.So over time, what that might do to to an animal is not going to be good.
So that's why I like to do a combination approach.So in a way, it's like an insurance policy for the animal long-term.Yeah you mentioned draw earlier.That's a it's a question that we get asked achieved because I'm an emergency vet that when we had when we do the history, it's not normally we're not talking about long-term health.
And they say, yeah, my name is, it's a role that a little part of me dies inside, but I can sort of brush over it and go.Yes, okay.Well, that's the GP B problem.You can talk to you about that or she can talk to you about that.Is it a problem?Is it is it not like other reasons why?Let's say, a client comes in and says to the vet at the vaccination?
Yeah.After I started feeding Raw.And you go?Yeah.Okay, that's okay.Let's not talk about it or do we need to say something about it?And help me to come up with the right things to say, what's potentially a bad about it.So, I like, when people say that I really do try, I'm not wanting to be judgment.
I always like to find out what their rationale was for that.And so a most of the time the rationale is because they want to feed their dog, what is naturally appropriate, but then it makes you think naturally appropriate.I like a wolf so wolf has evolved the way that they metabolize things are different.
A dog with a wolf, a wolf didn't have access to Yogurt.A wolf didn't have access to powdered kelp, didn't have access to eggs through the domestication of chickens.There's just so many things that it sounds so beautiful, but if you actually think about, it doesn't actually make any sense at all a wolf didn't have that.
So anyway, I like to find out what the rationale is for some it's because I think it will help their pet giving their condition.And the worst one is actually when the pet has a kidney disease and it's on an exclusively raw diet, what that's going to do to the animal.
After a short period of time, even is really quite detrimental to them.But there are some who are extremely adamant and you can only say, and do so much and I think a lot of it without sounding too rude.I think it comes from A place of ignorance.
And just the marketing does really, really well.And it's also a projection of people wanting to live a healthier life.So if they're giving their animal, what is perceived as it healthy natural way of living, but person feels good about themselves to the so that's internalized.
So I think it's good first to find out what their rationale is and the problem with raw foods, let's say aside from all the Issues of potential pathogenic problems because everyone is days, feeds human grade stuff.
So in that view apparently that reduces the amount of pathogens.But the other side of it is is that you're feeding a diet that is so high in organ Meats as you only need to give so much of an organ meat.It's not natural to have excessive amounts of organs being fed to your dog.
And as I've said before, you don't want that much protein.And because one protein doesn't stay, it gets excreted and if there's too much protein as well, your animal gains weight.So it's just with raw it's just so hard to balance it and generally here there's just a lot of you have surplus of things or deficiency and things.
It's never quite easy to formulate accurately and I think they think if you just add a bit of eggshell powder which I think the bioavailability of that is really poor.Long-term again, what that will do to your animal is not going to be great.
So just the digestibility of it and how much their animals going to be taking in is not going to be as good and the energy density of it is not going to be too great.Really either the animals just not going to be able to utilize it as well in my opinion, but that said they're still going to be quite a lot of research.
Looking at the utilization of foods, like, whether it's raw cooked commercial, but I just think it's a fantasy and Long-term what that will do to, your pet is quite detrimental and I think that's the reason why I got into nutrition because when I got my very first pet, which was a cat, the breeder told us to put a cat on a raw diet and because of that, I absolutely knew nothing.
I was 16 years old.I knew absolutely nothing in my parents.They wouldn't have known any, they never had pets, you know, that's just not the norm.So we just listen to this person and then over time what happened was feeding this raw diet, obviously my cat became very fussy didn't want to eat anything commercial.
We were just feeding him fish and chicken because that's, that's what do you like?That's what he was used to, but eventually killed my can't, because he's immunes, he didn't have a strong immune system.His bones became so brittle because, where was he getting his calcium from?
And through simple, kind of cat fight.Even though he got medications, he died from that ultimately, because his body just could not get through it because his diet was so poor.So it was because of that situation.I thought with the raw food, I'm particularly passionate about because there's just so much misconception and people don't realize long-term what that can do to your pet, if you don't do it correctly.
And so I get quite upset about it, it's not easy as that.Bring some chicken feed in there and a duck's head in a quail egg.And you know, these basic quite fancy ingredients as well.That actually would not accessible tools.
If you think about it, it's a fantasy.What I'm hearing is that the fact that I have in my head or some of the facts are around, this is accurate.But the challenging thing, sometimes is actually to have that conversation with the client who comes to you with with those preconceived ideas.
I like first of all that you say you have to start by listening and understanding and kind of being curious about their motivation beyond that.Have you figured out good ways of convincing people because the you right?They come in almost like a with a religious fervor about this.I was listening to a Different podcast this morning.
Where the with Simon sinek.We said when you have a disagreement with somebody, you don't always have to disagree with them at the time.When you hear that they wrong, he says because often they'll be motion involved.And it says, you have to answer a motion with emotion and rationality with rationality.
And sometimes you have to sit back a little bit and let the emotion play out before you come.Because what we do is what I do because we rational like academic beings and somebody comes with this strong idea, and I get on my high horse and I'm like, In my head.I'm like, you're an idiot.I know.That's right.
You should shut up and listen to me and that works how many times never?And that's exactly.Absolutely right?And I recognize that.And so my Approach tone is everything the way that I speak to you the tone that I speak to you makes such a difference and so, it takes a lot of practice.
And so I'd say with a lot of Clients that I've had and I've had people that are so fiercely, you know, they came in and they were so Fierce about raw and I've managed to get them to go at least on a combination and it all comes down to my tone of voice.
You really need to practice that you need to kind of guess as a male really kind of get into your feminine side in a way and just sound like all really like a nurturing mother that goes.Hey, what's happened?Are you okay?It makes such a huge difference because they feel so attacked owner.
Say to me, I feel so judged and attacked and the Vets not trying to do that, they're wanting to understand.But the way that they're going about it is the wrong way.And so as I said, you start off where you go, what's your rationale?I want to understand why you let them do that, you're getting their trust and then the open up a little bit more to you and then you Ask more questions about them, and their pets and then they're more inclined.
To listen to it is going to be a longer conversation and I know that's don't have that time.You only have 15, 20 minutes, maybe Max half an hour, if they booked in for longer.So you don't whereas with my consult they go up to an hour and sometimes I go more So I do have that luxury of time with people.
Yeah.Well the out the answer is potentially is when you have those things is to have somebody.In your practice, might be a nurse is passionate about nutrition or send them to a nutritionist, but do you have the time to get that trust because you exactly what you say?They come in with their story.
I react internally.And I don't want to attack them, but I do judge.If they say, they feel judged internally, I am judge.And then it when you judge, You speak.It comes out like that.It's exactly your tone will say, I'm superior.
You're an idiot.And that's going to get you nowhere.So I actually this might be the most important but out of this nutrition podcast is to.Yeah, and showing that empathy or vets have empathy.Oh you wouldn't get into the field without having empathy, but I think it's just being making yourself a lot more mushiya.
And it goes a really long way, a really long way.Yeah, that's right.And you can say those they took what this epithet sympathetic empathetic with mess this word up.Empathy words, anybody terms, I understand how you feel.Like I all I don't know if you've got better words but yes, I agree.
I also worry about my my dog and its food and relating yourself to their situation.Yeah.Now with the thought about the technicalities of bed again with the Commercial foods and this I've seen it, I've seen a discussion amongst vets about this the word processed now in human nutrition.
That's an ugly word.The swear word process is highly processed food.And then the discussion about well bag of dried kibble is clearly a highly processed food.Am I right in that assumption?It is a processed food of sorts.Yeah, grease pit, everything.
Everything is processed everything is process.Is it possible for not to be processed?And some things do need to be highly processed so then it is bio available to you.So it's one of those words again, that's thrown around to me.It's meaningless.
It's kind of like filler.I think what's more important?I mean ingredients that are being used and some ingredients need to go through a further process.So it is in an acceptable way that our body can then utilize.So for instance, I guess I'm trying to think of let's just go back to Ryan's people don't like grains but they need to go through a process.
So then the body can or the animal can utilize its nutrients and it's an amazing nutrient, even say with oats or quinoa and think they have to go through some process.Yes, there are some things that are minimally processed but it only needs that minimal process for then to be able to be utilized well.
But process is not a it's not a bad thing.I think there are a lot of words and a lot of terms that that will take a lot of time to kind of undo with the stigma and that it will just take time and it will take a lot of Education to am.
I right in understanding that that some of the fear about the process, what is the one thing I've heard with human nutrition is for example Heat Treating.Some of those ingredients will change them chemically and then produce other chemicals.That potentially implicated in carcinogens and is there anything in that in any kind of nutrition?
So to get it to the kibble, it does need to go to a process.It does need a certain heat and moisture and all of that to get it to that.But the temperatures and ingredients that are used.They're able to withstand it.So there is not too much denaturing.
And there are concentrates that are added that are able to go through those temperatures.And a lot of the time were actually I can't say a lot of the time, but with I guess well-regarded.Lecturers, they do test their batches.They do ensure that it doesn't have that protein that is supposed to have.
It does have that fat.Some of them do go to further, they do further analysis with a look at the amino acid profile.That yes, it does actually have all these not as frequently.The larger ones will because you will have customers that will call and say I would like the typical analysis and they're entitled to that you have like you're guaranteed, which is just Theory.
Core values of how much, you know, crude protein, crude fat, it would have.But a typical analysis means that they've actually gone and done testing on a few of their batches and they've got averages, but a lot of the ingredients that we put in there, they can withstand those temperatures and concentrates added in there to ensure if there are losses, it's made up of those concentrates.
So I understand that yes from a chemistry point of view things Is can change, you know, the chemical structures can change, and it can turn into this and this and that.But there isn't anything in the literature that states that cue ball has.
There's no kind of correlation with commercial foods and cancer or commercial foods and other kind.I think there's just greater reporting, but, you know, with Cancers and certain diseases.That's environmental.That's hereditary.There are other factors food.
Definitely can play a part.But it's not as significant as people make it to be.But it look, it is a very valid question for sure, but there's just not enough in the literature to say, yes, it does do such bad things to the body.
I suppose the again trying to see it from a, from a client and then repaid owner perspective.There's so much emphasis in human health about it.Less shit and eat healthy fresh food.Steer clear of processed because that's where the word comes from is from our as big don't eat.
Twinkies, and chocolates and chips.I can't have the discussion of somebody says, well why does my doctor tell me that?But you telling me that's fine, just eat this bag of food.We're how do you answer that one?Well look, it's completely up to them.I mean the Special Foods at Bay because pet owners.
They don't always have the time.I mean, if you think about it is, if you think of as humans, a lot of people give their babies formula and we cross formula, you know, I give my children form them in their babies.So and there is a trust there and we know that there's going to be nutrients there.
But sometimes, you know, I've had to give for me because I am time for, and I've gone back to work and I can't breastfeed anymore, so you have a choice if you don't like commercial food.Don't do it, that's fine.You can do your cooked food.Just obviously, you need to have someone guide you to do that correctly, but people have that right to do that, but either food, you know, you do what works for you and they shouldn't be that judgment.
Suppose the answer is, if you get a not give commercial food, then just at least make sure you do your research, and don't just do your research on Facebook or Google and feel bad better a balanced commercial break, highly processed meal, then a shitty home-cooked meal.Yeah, I poured efficient or Surplus in the wrong things kind of food because you can go quite wrong with that as well.
Okay, cool.And then you said earlier, you said, grain is an excellent nutrient.And then, of course, the counter-argument of a dogs, don't eat grain, but wolves.Don't eat grade.Are they?Because you'll see it everywhere.They can't really process Grand.They kind of what's the once a counter argument but what it, what are the facts around it?
Yes.So dogs have evolved where they can utilize carbohydrates and they need that as a source of energy, even cats to a degree can use that as well.They need glucose and Obviously, you look at the ratios to.Yes, of course, you don't.
I mean and also depending on conditions actually.It's better to have a higher, carbohydrate diet, and a moderate.Kind of protein diet depending on conditions, but dogs can absolutely utilize carbohydrates and there are different types of carbohydrates.Yes, you've got your grains, then you've got your vegetables.
So there are different carbohydrates that you can use, but they have evolved differently.So wolves are still quite primitive in the way that they met.Taba lies things, but dogs domestic dogs have evolved where they can utilize and the foods that we now offer them at that they can get in their diet, is a lot better than what a wolf would probably get.
And people have to remember that the wolf they have such well, at least to start with.I had such poor lives, like, I don't know exactly what their life expectancy work, but it wasn't very long be disease or they get eaten.Where is dog?Now, can lift these Long lives and that's just through Evolution through genetics through diet.
So we have to think how far we've come with dogs and how they utilize nutrients.It's quite different to wolves, even if you look at big cats versus our domestic cats, it's different, it's completely different.So if somebody uses the word wolf, just say your friend.
She is not a woman.It's a different.Absolutely.Now something there.That we actually had a discussion with one of our mates and people the other day is prebiotics and probiotics, and things like that.
Is that something that you work in or get asked about a lot or that you can speak up.You look, it is such a huge area, and there are people who just dedicate their lives and looking out there and my knowledge on it.Look, it's not as good, but from what I do understand.
So there is a lot on the market out there and the efficacy of them.To be quite honest.I don't think there's really many out there that are too good.I think it might be more anecdotal and I know that a lot of the, you know, it's very expensive to do trials.
So a lot of them don't do trials on it.They just happen to have a lot of money that they can throw out there and create and launch these products.And the thing with the gut health as well, we all have an individual.We have individual kind of colonies.Our guts are so different.So a probiotic, you might get on the Shelf, may not be quite suitable for your, for your gut colony, and it may do it really nothing.
But there are some brand I know of what they've done.Quite extensive work on their product, and they have done research, and I think it's currently going through a patent.So there's definitely a lot of interest around it, and I think it definitely has legs, but it just has a really long way to go.
There are some on the market, I think here, what they not, they seem to do pretty well.And I do recommend it just to see how it goes for some pet specific conditions or just general health, or are you using it when you pull it off the shelf as it?So animals started, but seem to have them more prone to sensitivities or IBD shoes.
I'll say, you know, go on that or younger animals, for instance.It's something that they may need to be on for life, like humans, some humans are just on probiotics, prebiotics?They whole life and that's something that you do need to maintain for a long period.Not just have a one-off tablet or two here and there, it needs to be maintained the needs to be continuity because I've got bacteria can change very rapidly, depending on the situation depending on your health or what you've eaten, and things like that.
So there needs to be continuity with gut health.What for what you're eating.And if you are going to have a probiotic, you need to keep having that rather than just giving it every now and then when the dog seek that's not going to do anything.We are allowed to mention brand.
If you if you have favorites that you think, yeah, they seem to do something.And then you mentioned one that stays doing a lot of research in.So yeah, yeah.So one that I like to recommend is pro:, that's a pretty good one and I've received pretty good feedback.
On that.And the other one, which is going through the patency, pretty short.So, things could probably have to clarify things would dig up, where is it?Ya dig up.It's not as a well-known one, but was created by a vet and food technologist, but is also, he does pet nutrition.
That's one that I've recently come to find out about and they've done extensive work.And from what I've been told it works quite well, but they have done quite Super search actual Research into it.And the whole research has been into gut health and looking at the different colonies and bacteria gut and how probiotics that you use a quite.
They need to be quite specific to your gut.So that's just a bit more expansive than what people realize.But I listened to long discussion.The other day about the human microbiome with an interactive gastroenterologist, who's been in the field for 4050 years.And Does the same sort of a statement saying.
Yeah, there's definitely something to it.There's definite signs there but we don't quite know enough to be able to give you solid recommendations.He says we will get there.We working on it when it's exactly.When this astounding fact when the vast majority of bacteria that live in our guts they don't even know what they are because they don't grow.
They can't culture them, they're just blew my mind.So it's like outer space.We don't know what's happening in our own colons and if you'd look People want to really understand this extensive amount of work being done in poultry gut health, like it's huge.
Money is just being thrown at it because how we perform, or how animals perform it does have a lot to do with their gut and how they're utilizing those nutrients.So if they're not having good gut health, They're not going to be utilizing nutrients very well and then they conversion ratios won't be as good.
So there's a lot of research being done into gut health of chickens, particularly broilers, but it's an interesting one with chickens are the reason I've got this interest was a did my PhD in poultry and with broilers?They have such short lives.
And it's interesting to me that they doing these studies in an animal that has such a short life.So it's a bit harder to kind of track that I think but anyway they're doing extensive amount of work and I think they're really good model.Maybe for the pet industry to look at or what are they doing in the poultry industry because poultry is a great model for many.
Because you can imagine, if they could tweak a little thing that can give them two percent better growth or something.Yeah, the poor, the money into it.So follow the money to see what their what comes out.That's a and as they've been anything from that, like, have they made any major leaps in chickens where they can go?
Yeah, this this helps, I haven't followed it too much, but I know there's just a lot on it, like this, constantly things on it.So, and it's probably the most trending research area for poultry Health more than nutrition itself.
Even perhaps even more than genetics, One more thing that I have specifically.You mentioned vegan?Vegetarian diets and Bets.Am I right in saying, no, for a cat can't maintain a healthy cat.Okay.Cat can survive.
It will definitely not Thrive.Vegetarian vegan diet and there's this whole thing of will they go?Oh, we, you know, you can get proteins from highest but protein is not equal in different ingredients and at the same time, you'll have people that are so anti using soy.
And it's like what Do you want to use?Then you don't want to use soy.What's your really next?Best protein source.So I think they're just wanting too much but not compromising, but look a cat technically, on a commercial Seed, Vegan food or vegetarian food.
I can survive.But as I said, they certainly will not thrive on that diet and dogs.They do okay on it.Yeah, they'll do okay on Earth, but survived, not Thrive.And also, it's not as powerful.Palatable.It's just not enjoyable and I mean to put it quite bluntly if you're wanting to put your dog on that kind of food.
And I know I'll get a lot of hate for this but I think you've really chosen the wrong pet.You really should have gone for a rapid or just a plant-eating animal, because I don't think it's fair to project your values.
Like that to that extent on your pet.I just don't think that that's fair.I like that.That's a.You say it's a bold statement but it makes sense to say, well, maybe it was not for you, if your dog could choose.He would definitely choose meet.Yeah, I just don't think it's fair long-term.
The dogs dogs also like us and cats as well.They want to enjoy their food, you want to make it a good experience and the palatability of the food, the texture of the food, but makes a Big difference to their experience and how they approach food.
And they can't add a lot of those kind of flavors that we can add to our foods to make it as palatable.So a vegan, you know, a vegan can do a lot with their food, a human being can do a lot with their food to make it a really enjoyable eating experience, but a dog is very much, limited cat is limited.
So don't think that that's fair.So I think it's good to find another animal that you can bond with.That will enjoy those plants just as much as you like it or not is anything we missing out on you.Get these questions all the time.
Is it?I you talking about anything different to this when you're going to the FED Expo or I think that with The Vedic.So it's a lot of this.It's a lot of and it's going back to the question of, you know you're a vet you get kinds of Making and they say, well, this is what I'm feeding them, and it's trying to get vets to understand the owners point of view, and really get them thinking about what is out there on the market.
If they have a good understanding their able to maybe understand their owners, the pet owners a little bit more, and it might help them better guide, the pet owners about, you know, dietary choices that they want to make.
Their pet because I just don't want vets to be closed-minded.I think it's just good for them to be aware of what's happening and try to be as balanced as possible.Because what will happen is, they'll tell you what, they're feeding, their pets will be that judgment that pet owner might not come back to you again, and you don't want that and they just going to go around hopping two different clinics until they find someone that will validate what they're thinking, and that's not a good thing.
I don't think that's not good for the animal as far as Continuity of care.They're just going to get so many different opinions and then the owner gets really confused and then they get all angry and they go, right.I have to deal with this because no one can give me a straight answer.No one seems to know what they're talking about.
So I think if that's have a better understanding of what's out there on the market educate themselves, they'll have more productive conversations with pet owners because you will lose pet owners and they'll just try and do it themselves to the detriment.
Out of their pet.Yeah she were.That's really cool.Thank you.That's a great discussion of I do like the discussion about trying to understand this mother psychology around at the end of the axle, just a list of facts to throw it at your fines.Thank you, thank you for having me.
We are in the way just a reminder about our live event on 22 to 25 November in nusa.We finalize the clinical program for the to clinical days with Brooke, Jill medicine and prof.David church and it's a little bit epic.We talking to prep Jill about better clinical reasoning and we're doing clinical conundrums, which are case studies that will use to build onto the content that she teaches.
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