May 29, 2022

#69: Vetrepreneurism. With Dr Aaron Wallace

#69: Vetrepreneurism. With Dr Aaron Wallace
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Season 1

How would you define an entrepreneur? Mirian-Webster says it’s someone who starts their own business, especially when this involves a new opportunity. Here’s another fact: we are at a point in time when our profession is FILLED with new opportunities. I’m sure you’re spotting them all around you. But once you spot that opportunity, how do you translate it from an idea into reality? How do you overcome all the doubters and nay-sayers, especially when the loudest nay-sayer is probably you!?

Dr Aaron Wallace is a veterinarian and a bonafide entrepreneur. He co-founded Lacuna Diagnostics, a digital cytology company, while he was still a vet student and helped to establish and grow lacuna to the point where it was recently sold to Heska. Aaron's brainchild is rolling out across the world under the new name of HeskaView Telecytology. 

Happy ending right? But happy endings almost never happen without tough beginnings and good stories. In this episode, Aaron shares that story. We talk about entrepreneurship in veterinary science, where the new opportunities lie in our profession, how to bring YOUR big idea to the vet world, the traits that you’ll learn as a vet that will serve you well outside of vet, and much more. 

 

Go to thevetvault.com for show notes and to check out our guests’ favourite books, podcasts and everything else we talk about in the show.

If you want to lift your clinical game, go to vvn.supercast.com for a free 2-week trial of our short and sharp highly practical clinical podcasts.

We love to hear from you. If you have a question for us or you’d like to give us some feedback please get in touch via email at thevetvaultpodcast@gmail.com, or just catch up with us on Instagram.

And if you like what you hear then please share the love by clicking on the share button wherever you’re listening and sending a link to someone who you think should hear this. 

 

 

How would you define an entrepreneur?Merriam Webster says, it's someone who start their own business, especially when this involves a new opportunity.Here's another fact for you.We are in a point in time when our profession is filled with new opportunities.I'm sure you spotting them all around you.
Take a profession that's bristling with change.Throw in a bunch of smart people like you and incredible things are bound to happen.But once you spot that opportunity, how do you translate it from an idea into a reality?T, how do you overcome all the doubters and the naysayers, especially when the loudest naysayer is probably you, dr.
Aaron Wallis is a veterinarian and a bona fide entrepreneur.Let's call it a veteran or I just coined that 20 copyright fit.Well, he founded the kuna Diagnostics.I digital cytology company while he was still a vet student and helped to establish and grow lacunae to the point where it was too good to resist by the big fish.
So, the Kunis technology was recently bought by his car and is rolling out across the world as we speak with the new name of Jesus, gave you a happy ending, right?But Happy Endings.Almost Never Happened without tough beginnings.And good stories in this episode.
Aaron shares that Story, we talked about entrepreneurship in which any science or veg partnership?About where the new opportunities lie in our profession, how to bring your big idea to the vet world, the traits that you learn as a clinical bait, that will serve, you really well outside of it and much, much more.
Please.Enjoy.Dr. Aaron Wallis.I needed him strapped.I'm Jeremy Park and this is the vid felt.Just a quick bit of housekeeping before we kick off.
So you'll notice that we will be discussing his kiss newest must-have toy in this episode.And if you're a regular list and you also know that our friends and his curse Trail is, sometimes give us financial support through paid ads for the in-house lab equipment.So, does that mean that this episode is one big paid ad know?
Well, David from his cat did call me one day to suggest Aaron as a guest as someone with a very cool story and some interesting views on where the profession could be hitting ulterior motives.Definitely and was I suspicious of his motives a little bit.
I did it turn out to be a great conversation.Full of value for you, 100% Well played David well played but they are paying us to say that this episode is supported by his ghost.Raelia the guys, who are on a mission to help you to reimagine the way that you run your in-house diagnostics from Bloods to Reds and now cytology and a part of their mission is to make some major changes and how much it cost you.
Run a first-class Suite of In-House Diagnostics.I also have a bit of a under the radar too.Good to be true.This is really going to cost us but we really want to business kind of a special at the moment that you may have heard about if you chatted to them at their AV a conference stand recently, but if you went there in, this is the only place you'll hear about.
It will tell you more about it at the end of the episode.All I'll say now is that it has the word free in it, and we're not just talking about a free analyzer.That's so 2021, but for now, let's get back to dr.Aaron Wallis.Dr. Aaron Wallis, welcome to the vet.
Well, thank you so much for joining us.Oh, no, it's a pleasure.Thanks for the invite.I've been dying to do a couple of episodes on entrepreneurship and specially tick and what else you can do with that for a long time.And I think that's I feel like you the perfect person to talk about it so I can't wait to get stuck into it.
So, it sounds great.That's a topic I can talk about that.Sounds like, I've got this quite a few visits.You've done completely different things in the, say, the take over 100 entrepreneurship game, but if you think about it, starting a practice is an entrepreneurial venture.Absolutely.It's a the same principles are there but I want to start with the first things after the sort of standard question.
Just to get to know you a little bit.I was driving along a highway one day and I saw graffiti on the wall that said, bad decisions lead to good stories.That's what all that said today.Just think.Think think about is that true or not.So do you think it's true?Is there some truth in there?
And if you do have you got any examples?Yeah, I think that's the classic business school answer of it.The pants, right?I'm sure sure.Bad decisions can go either way.No, I think so.I mean, I think it's probably especially we're talking about career decisions or business decisions.
I think takes some time for those things to play out and actually see the end up being a good story or not.But for me if that's what you're asking.Yeah.I mean, I, you know kind of where my undergraduate GPA as a badge of honor that I have one of the lowest GPA has ever accepted the veterinary school in the states, and I do that.
Is that is that a, you know, that when I was accepted, they sat me down and told me, I better be serious about this.But but the reason I bring that up is that he's a lot of innovative people out there and there's a lot of great veterinarians out there that are sitting there saying, you know, well, my GPA is too low to be a veterinarian and the reality of it is.
I'm open about it because, you know, I sat there with a barely passing undergraduate GPA and worked my way through.So the bad decision for me was, you know, I could have saved myself, a lot of debt here.The US with University bills and things like that had I just been focused and a little bit more of a mature student early on.
It was a bad decision on my part but in hindsight, it's a great story and I got.So we're going to talk about today based on the invite is when you're forced to spend 15 years working inside of veterinary hospitals and doing every job inside of a veterinary hospital before.Becoming a veterinarian.
It was a little bit of different perspective on things and so my bad decision to be a, you know, not very focused undergraduate student at Diversity led to what we're going to talk to you today of being an innovator and and you notice a successful entrepreneur.Hopefully in the future, so cuts through the Journey.
I don't I sort of know the end point of your story, but I don't know where you started.Did you go straight into beds or what's been your journey?Yeah.I mean, I grew up in a hobby Farm in Pennsylvania.So East Coast here in the US about give you an idea about five hours directly west of New York City.
So that's Amish Country.You know, used to be one of the highest producing Dairy areas, you know, for milk in the United States, but I grew up on a small hobby farm, that had some sheep and some goats, and some chickens and, and really understood early on at a young age that the human animal Bond was there.
I watched my sister and my family, and I interact with these animals and thought it was special when the veterinarian would come out to the farm.So, you know, I started having an interest somewhere around the age of eight or ten and wanted to be a veterinarian and through High School worked at the local Clinic that one doctor practices to work out.
He used to make me commit and be the janitor at night to be able to come in and watch him.Do surgery during the day, which I thought was, you know, the spray lost idea in today's world, but every really meant a lot to me, to have to earn that time.That's amazing.It's complete Sidetrack.The vid that used to come in you to your farm.
How did you view him?Like, what was your perspective?Um, did you, did you see him as a successful?Happy person who you wanted to be like, or what was your view as a Line as a young person.Yeah.No, that's a great question.
You know, I think it's kind of, it's starting to become a little bit of a lost art in that.This was a mixed animal, ambulatory veterinarian traveling Farm to farm 40 50 minute drive between clients and he loved it.You know, he was working for himself.He owned his own business and, you know, we were 4-H kids at the time.
So, we were young, people learning about agriculture and learning about pets at that time.So we were Were a special kind of client for him, but he truly, you could do could see really, you could tell, he truly enjoy what he was doing.But on the flip side of it.He was also working very hard.
And that was very obvious.That at that early age.It wasn't, you know, the idea of becoming a veterinarian, was not a glamorous stardom, you know, Fame kind of position.This is a, this is a working class, professional working very hard to do what they love.And that was my perspective, very early on, and that's what I thought I would end up doing.
It's very interesting and it's interesting.I like we got one cut too far down the we could talk for hours, just about that.But I want to find out more about you sir.So you what you wanted to be that you were happy with that.And then what was your journey into it?You said you had a low GPA or did you go straight to vet school after after school or how did it go?
No, I I was told by two teams of admissions.I would never get accepted when I would meet with the universities and say, hey, what do I need to do to get in there?Like, go to human.Med do something else.You know, I like that.That.Yeah, you know, it's true though, but you know, I think being a young gritty Farm kid.
Someone telling me I couldn't do something.That's probably the motivation I needed to snap out of and of that and become focused.And you know, so I throw of in hard, I was very fortunate to gain a position at a mixed animal practice right out of University and and and he didn't treat me like a Doctor, John shapira and just outside of where Penn.
University isn't been Pennsylvania and John didn't treat me necessarily like just anybody who has come into work in his Clinic.It was very much a, you know, you earned your rewards and that when I left that practice after two and a half years.I had my own that truck.I was driving around helping, you know, do the things I could in an underserved area whether or not enough that in Aryans, probably skating the the practice acts a little bit closer than we than we probably should have but you know, the Amish community, there was no one to help them so he fired me.
He John Gave me a six-month notice and said, Aaron, if you're going to be a veterinarian, I've done everything.I can for you got six months when you don't have a job here, go figure it out.So so, so what we?So this was straight out of high school.You took a job at the vet practiced doing no pouting starting to sweat.
This is after University.Yeah.This was after University.So, during during High School, I would kind of volunteer and work in the practice in town.And then I went to University and I came back.So what do you mean?I really started getting focus.What were you studying at University?Because Free grad course, or what?
Did you do first?Yeah.Yeah.So, you know, I went to a liberal arts college here.So there was no pre-vet, or animal science or anything like that.The closest I could get to was animal psychology.So University.I went to, they actually had a full primate lab and they had a full honey bee lab, where they would study animal behavior and psychology.
So, I spent most of my time and University working with honeybees and learning about the cognitive processes of these very, very small animals.And and it was an awesome experience.However, you're not going to go have a very promising career with a low GPA and animal psychology.
So, so while it was a great experience, I learned a lot, you know, that degree was was kind of a stepping stone for me just to learn what university was like before getting to the real deal.Okay.So you did that then you got the job at The Vape, doing all sorts.What do you do to work what you're doing?
I mean, I've worked now worked with Of primary care Veterinary ins and and board-certified Specialists.And you know, now going through University working literally with the tip of the spear in Academia and John is the best veterinarian I've ever worked with.He literally was James Herriot.
We would go Prague Czech cows in the morning and cut an LDA and then be off to the Wildlife Reserve the last.Here's, here's an example.Last day.I spent with him.We palpated some cows in the morning and cut an LDA.We went to the wildlife.
Reserve, we spade a mountain lion and we treated a bobcat for mange.We went in after lunch saw points all afternoon and then did two emergency surgeries that evening.I mean, this is the guy, this was his, this was disguised a which, you know, as a veterinarian myself today.
I don't have that skill set and never will have that skill set to actually treat that many species at that level.So that's that's kind of the things that I would do with him and the experience.He, he offered to me for those years of mentorship when I was with him.But what were you actually doing?So you riding shotgun holding stuff passing stuff actually doing my work.
Yeah, sometimes I was driving out to the milk fever Cal and grabbing a blood sample before the vet could get there because the vet was, you know, two valleys over and not going to get there for a couple hours.They give that calcium PK or the need calcium or was it you know, what does it need other times?
I was doing dehorning, or your notching or there was just so many different things that I was literally there as a, you know, I think Think what would be looked at as a mixed animal technician?However, in that part of the country, there weren't any.I mean, veterinarians were a complete solo show.
Okay.It's very insightful of John actually to utilize.You like that.But that's what we're trying to in many practices to teach people to Outsource some of the stuff that doesn't require it to do.So, he was obviously a forward-thinking smart person.Yeah.I was very fortunate to run into the sky.
I still stay in touch with him.Yeah, so then so he said, all right.You need to be a vet, get out of this sort of halfway station that you're stuck in get into uni.How did you get into vet school?Then from then with your low GPA.I kind of just looked at a map and said, where you gonna go?
Look where's the fresh start going to be and, you know, the Rocky mountains of Colorado, didn't seem like a horrible place to go.So we headed, you know, I had it my buddy and I headed across country and we moved here as in our early 20s, and to Fort Collins Colorado, where Colorado State University is, and And I literally begged for a job.
I mean, this was 2007 2008.So, you know, the economy in the US was, was not strong and the disposable income to spend on pets was was low and it was kind of a nice unique time where the specialization was starting to happen.You were starting to see these emergency specialty centers popping up in the US and the primary care physician.
Wasn't, you know, doing everything they possibly could wasn't on call all the time that stuff.So, I was fortunate enough to get a job as a penalty.Get out a large specially house, but I think I was employee number 9 or 10.I did, my internship there, my emergency and critical care, internship there.
But 10 years later and there were over 125 employees at that time, at that hospital.So so yeah, so I literally begged for a job and just kept, you know, conning having that grit mentality of, you know, saying yes to every opportunity.I possibly could and ran into some other great mentors.
Like John then you know, Matt Rooney being one.Chris Dean, she'll be another, that was a practice manager in the surgeon who owned this practice that they couldn't really pay me what, I probably deserve to be paid for the work.I was doing, but they really understood intrinsic motivation and we're giving me the opportunity to see things and learn things that would help me later in my career.
And yeah, so I just kept pushing, and pushing, and pushing, and learning, and eventually got to the opportunity where I could get into grad school and went to grad school and then went to that school.Well, so by the time you've finished vet school, how many years out of school at a high school?How long did it take?
How long was the old journey to being a qualified way?How many years?So high school to graduation from that school is 18 years in the industry.Wow.Yeah, that's a long long as the you do clearly you've really wanted to do it.Well that bad decision led to that good story.
So I guess we answered your your question.Yeah.Well, that's a that's a very long journey.Here's a question.Not of something I've seen in the past to gain weight.One of the reasons we started this.That's because there's a fairly high level of dissatisfaction, amongst the weights with the koreas.
But then I often see with who love being with it.Love it.I think it's the best job in the world and when you dig a little bit, it's often the similar sort of story, not an easy round for them.They really had to work hard.There was there was a lot of challenges but they were dead set on becoming vids.
I have several friends like that who never failed a couple of years and had to redo years and that but they persisted and they and they Of the happiest B.I know you think it's a, it's just because they have ever more of a passion than somebody who's a smart Cajun, you know, Easy Street into vet school and never have never really, and an uphill challenge.
Is there a link there at all?Do you think?Well, I mean, I think and I think if we look at any profession, I think the great hypothesis is true, you know, people who push through the hard times and have that great are likely to be successful.But, you know, when I, when I'm entering vet students now or talking to high school, Cool kids, who want to go to vet school?
The advice.I give them and I think I'd love your opinion on this too is go out there and see if it's for you.I think those of us that didn't do so well early on and we're forced to go get all this experience to, you know, get in more on professional experience, rather than academic achievements.We proved to ourselves that we understood how a Veterinary, practice worked.
We understood that you're going to get dirty.You understand that it's going to be tough and you get all the things that are not so glamorous.And you see those things where?Sometimes I think that those that You know, have their academics amongst them and can kind of get in on a little, not easier note, but a more streamlined note because everybody earns their own way in, maybe doesn't get exposed to that as much.
I don't know if you agree with that or not.Yeah, I would, I would, I would I would actually count myself as the counter example to you, and I did well at school.It was, yeah, I worked hard, but it wasn't massive challenge for me to get into med school.And that meant that I didn't spend a hell of a lot of time in practice.
I went to see practice with It could be days.So I really had no idea what I got into.Yeah, and I experienced a high degree of disillusionment, almost surprised of shit.This is what I've been waiting for all this time.It's not just not what I expected because you have this romantic idea.
So I think you spot on that's actually a very, very, in fact, they could almost make that a prerequisite of studying graders to say, you need to spend a bit of time in a bit practice as a tick or something like that before we even consider an application.So that you We want to know that, you know what you're getting into.Yeah, it's tough though, right?
Because I mean, I don't know what your world looks like there.But there's we're so short on veterinarians here.Yeah, you know, so lengthening that road, you know, like it doesn't seem like a great salute, you know, one one, one solution causes another problem.But yeah, I think I had something like 25,000 hours of experience when I apply to that school.
I think they require a few hundred, you know, but but you know, it was, you know, what, I walked in day one of being a doctor.I mean, I was equally a scares everybody else, but I wasn't I didn't have this disillusion of what that day was going to look like.I knew exactly what that day was going to look right?
Well then the counter argument for what we discussing it is that we're assuming that studying rate is leading to one thing and that is clinical practice.And that's sort of what we want to discuss today.Is that again, looking at myself?I didn't hate practice, but it was tougher than I thought and I didn't always sit in the noise, love it.
And I've been working hard for a 20-year period to find other things that I can do with my degree there.I am having a bad credit and that's because Hi, because I did wait, so so assuming that if that's somebody who doesn't love clinical practice isn't going to love being a vet.Well, what's your definition of a vet?
Or maybe we can dig into your other stuff a little bit more to see well how else can you use it as it goes?It's a good degree.It goes Way Beyond, just fixing puppies and kittens.Yeah.I mean, I've been lucky enough to talk to and get to know some of the some of the most successful entrepreneurs in veterinary medicine, you know, guys like Ivan that created smart flow and who's now working on guy.
See vets and Caleb Frankel.He's creating Instinct science, you know, which is really revolutionising.The way records are done and things like that and just practice management software in general.And we've all had conversations and agree that clinical reasoning.You know, what?We don't know if that's necessary, what they teach us in veterinary school, but we end up perfecting as clinicians, is our ability to look at a medical problem and grab data and assess that and group it together into differentials and and then start running Diagnostics.
A sticks to rule out or diagnose that animal and that skill set.And that way of thinking is probably way more difficult than we give it credit.Yeah.Those that's what all those years of all that all those prerequisites and everything going through veterinary school.
And then getting on clinics has really taught us.And I think that by having that skill set, you can apply that to other things, which I know that's I don't think so.I know.That's so and Entrepreneurship and business are two great avenues for that because, you know, you get, You school and they start teaching you these ways of prototyping or building a business or you know, there's a book out there on Lean Startup methodology.
Where is basically the same exact process is our clinical reason.So what you're saying is, you know, are there other avenues out there and the answer is yes, I mean using your clinical reasoning skills that go through what they call a build measure learn or get a minimal viable product out there.
See what your customers think of it.Take that feedback and fix it and build.Something else is exactly what we do in clinics every day and in Business and Entrepreneurship, I think are things that in the pet space and the veterinary space.There's so much going on and there's so much new stuff and it's so exciting and they're starting to be those translational components between human medicine and veterinary medicine that.
Yeah, there's so much you can do with your Veterinary degree, but I was very lucky for my mentors to force me into practice and I think getting that basis like you have maybe not 20 years, but getting those years of practices.It's key to being able to have the ability to do something later so much to explore there, but I actually really like that.
So it's that sort of problem solving.And again, anything you undertake in life, what you're going to be doing on a day-to-day basis, is problem solving.That's that's literally what what life is about not just business.He has a problem, how you're going to solve it?And and those lessons of saying, well, this is probably a very complicated problem.
Let's start at one end and breakdown systematically and see what it is.As well, like one of our previous guest said, I'll reduce quite that.It sort of fits with the startup.He said that for him, Private Practice can be summarized, as high consequence decision making in a complex environment with imperfect data on a budget, how well they fit fit into into the startup world.
Yeah.Let's say you were figuring out how to Market your podcast, right?I mean, the consequences of making a mistake or way, less than what we deal with in clinical practice.All right, Zach, right.Yeah, and then the other one that comes to mind is one of my clinicians at University.When we were overwhelmed with these very complicated medical, especially the cases, with multiple problems going on.
He had a way of breaking it down.I don't have all the Specialists would agree with this, but I still live with it.I use this all the time, but treat what you see it and see what you left with, which I think, is a gay Dance of the great business principle.Yeah.Now you said something else in there that I want to Circle back to I like what you said about the importance of being in clinical practice.
So not just learning the theory of all this but spending time in clinical practice.However, been things that you've learned through years internal practice that you're applying on a day-to-day basis in outside of clinical practice in the business world.Yeah.
I mean, here we were, we had this startup and we're raising money and had customers and we're starting to go Global right?When I was finishing vet school.And you know, I was at this fork in the road.Do I continue on with my co-founders and charged at this, or do I go do an internship and dive into clinical practice and my mentors like I said earlier, they really in my wife Lisa.
She really was a part of this too made me think about that.And say, you know, if you're short-sighted now on what's the opportunities that are ahead of you and you lose track of what you've actually put all this time into do which is to be a clinical Veterinary.I'm you may never Ever have the chance to do that again.And and I was like, oh, come on, like I could take a couple years and I could go back and work and I'm and I don't think that's true.
I think, you know, looking now.I'm a few years out from that situation and being able to dive into practice with good mentorship.I actually did an internship which if you asked me five years ago, if I would an internship, I just said there is no way I would ever do an internship.I'm going to go into practice and do it.But, you know, I did an emergency and critical care internship where I'd see 20, 25 cases in a shift and have 15 in patience.
And you know, how that goes.And that's, that's learning.That's the School of Hard Knocks.And now, you know, now I miss it and to answer your question.Yes, like everybody says it gives you street cred, but the reality of it is that's just with yourself.I mean, I don't really care what some other veterinarian thinks about me as a clinical Veterinary, and then we're doing business, but I do care about the decisions that we're making in a teams that were leading because if you haven't been there and done it and you don't know what's going on.
In these practices practices, have changed a ton in the last 18 months.Let alone the past, you know, five years so so yeah, that piece of getting in there and getting that basis of clinical practice to me is the most valuable piece to being able to have all the doors open to you in the future.
Because as we talked about and I'm assume we're going to continue to talk about with genomics and lab-grown meats, and e-commerce and precision medicine, and artificial intelligence and all the stuff that's out there.You have to be a good clinical veterinarian before you can start exploring those other avenues.
Yeah.To be one of my questions.If you're interested in the whole startup thing.Should you spend your time and practice.But you've just answered, so, clarify for me, the other aspect of your life, the development of Laguna and the tech side.
When, and how did that start happening?Where were you in your journey?When that happened?Was it your idea or was it the?Yeah, tell me the story.Yeah, it was not my idea.So not that schools crazy.E-enough, we were in a program where we were going to veterinary school during the day and then we were going to business school at night.
So we're getting our Masters in Business while we were, you know, in veterinary school.So there's a few, everybody is that it was that stand up for the course.What did you choose that?No, there's, there's a little box.You check whenever you apply to a few schools.So, I know they call it a no.Colorado state has five students a year.
I think Texas A&M has a program.I think NC State might have a program.Maybe Cornell's got a program pens.Got a There's a few universities across the country that do this.And the reality of it is is that, you know, your MBA is kind of free because they can't charge you for any more credits because there's no bill code for it.
So do not adding to your student debt, but the reality of it is is that it's very difficult to be getting both degrees at the same time because you're using one side of your brain all day.And then you're going to class at night and we literally were sitting around with professionals.You know, we were Veterinary students and there were marketing professionals from a Fortune 50 sales professionals from Fortune 100 companies in a room.
When we're watching them, collaborate and discuss, and argue on different business topics for 22 months while we were going to veterinary school.So in order to exit, The NBA had to build a business.Wow.So this is a proper MBA.Yeah.
This is a real Indian.I started really think not of the Oddity of the kid with the, the kid with the low GPA.I've got a couple going to use double degree of X is laying around, but yeah, it's a real one.Yeah, but it also attracted a unique group of students because you had to get accepted to both colleges.
You had to get accepted at the business college and the Veterinary College.So about halfway through this program.They let us know that they were actually taking away the entrepreneurial So this program and they were not going to have a the ending note, be building a business, and we actually lobbied as a cohort and said, no, that's that's part of why we're here.
I'll never forget it damn prison.And we're sitting, we're sitting in the first day of the NBA and professors going around the room.Going.Why are you taking an MBA?Why are you getting an MBA?Why are you putting yourself through this torture?You're going to go work 10 hours all day.And then you're going to come to this was easy for us.
We're going to combine program so we can answer that.But I'll never forget Dan saying he was a VP of sales of the large.Company that we all know that I won't say.At this point at that time and he said, I'm tired of walking into meetings and not understanding every word that comes out of everyone's mouth.That's why I'm here.
So, he was one of the vet students or he was actually just even, he was just a business to chip in your business.You just a business student, right?So so so we the five of us were going to vet school day and business school at night.And then we had these professionals like this.It had that perspective.So him and a bunch of us lobbied to get this entrepreneurial piece back in this, going to college, didn't even resist it.
They said, wow, if you guys want this Let's do it and they did, and they brought it back and they brought an amazing Professor.His name's Tim Galpin, you know, a ton of merger acquisition experience to lead this Capstone class.So Connor and I know, Connor was an MBA DVM as well.
We really tried to personalize the MBA as we went through to veterinary medicine.So when we were in a leadership class would be talking about.What does that, how does that apply to leadership in veterinary medicine?And we were in a digital marketing class.Like how does that apply to veterinary medicine?And we talked with people in our networks and Have email chains going and really tried to make this a Veterinary MBA for us.
So, it came decision time where we had to build a business and I pitched my idea to him.And he pitched his idea to me, and I want because we did his idea.He was literally working extra hours on top of going to veterinary school during day and business school at night.
I was still working at the practice.I was working at, he was working in the clinic in path Lab at the University, you know, with sample submissions and things like that.And he said, What is the value of digitizing?The microscope slide that these things show up unmarked lost broken?So but the, how devils are frozen?How did he know that?
Because I come back to it but having not worked in practice.How did you guys even know that this was an issue?We had E.I mean, we had both been in practices that had experienced, you know, which comes back to that point.We're talking about earlier, but he literally was living it in the lab.
Like he was identifying the problem of having to try to call these veterinarian.Ins that submitted their sample, you know, and it got there Friday night.They had to wait till Monday morning to find out what the sample was or, you know, you name it.There's a ton of different reasons why those samples get ruined, you know, they get packaged with formula of psychology, slide is ruined, like all that.
So he said to me what is the value of digitizing this?And I actually was at my wife's Christmas party at the time who there happen to be a clinical pathologist there.So I walked across the room and I said, what is the value of doing this?He's like we've tried like, it would be awesome.But like the technology is not there.It's too expensive.It's too slow.
And, you know, everybody's been talking about it for years and Connor and I said, well, maybe we should evaluate that and we actually call out of state was great to us.They supported our decision to do the entrepreneurial thing, and they had this program and they helped us get to a human path conference in San Francisco.
A few weeks later.We're at the time there was, you know, how you go to a conference.There's all the different Columns of the program like one third of one column on one day was digital.Pathology.I said, was it Thing.And the yeah, yeah, it was a human medicine but it was anatomic.Pathology.
It was not Clinical Pathology.So it was histopath not clean path.And this is just getting started.I mean, it was just, it was the first time it had ever been really talked about at these conferences because the technology was kind of starting to Crest in human medicine.So the first thing was a breakfast.
It was a breakfast Roundtable where it talked about the return of investment of digitizing your hospital and histopath and Connor.And I sat down at this table and there were From the leading hospitals around the country, you know, and here we are as for not even first-year Veterinary students yet and they said, what you guys doing here?
And we said, we're Veterinary.We have for the only thing that Mary medicine.Yeah, and and they welcomed us.They said that's smart.Like you guys should do this in veterinary medicine.This is a good idea and it took off from there.I mean, business story gets even better from there, but it took that initiative one for Conor to have the idea and to for us to get to that conference.
I want To go.I was like, oh no, this is this going to be a waste, like, you know, we got a lot going on and it and it really took off from there.So at that time.So that was January of 2016 February 2016.The cost of a scanner was around, 100,000 us?
The it was didn't have the way to make an image, that was compactable.So the image sizes were four and five gigabytes.So you couldn't move them through the internet, you know, it would take, you know, hours to upload them.Rural parts of the world so they were using them on a network.All in One hospital and scanning it from 3rd.
Floor to 11th, floor to the basement, things like that.And then the service contracts for something ridiculous like 25,000 us a year.So here you are with a machine that while it was starting to happen.What we spend.Our time doing was getting that minimal, viable product going to get it into veterinary hospitals, at a cost point that a price point that would work.
Well, so, I'll tell you two stories of not going for the ideas because you have lots of ideas.And I want I want to get to is why what made you guys have the guts to say.We're going to go for this because there's many reasons not to.
So probably around about the same time.I had my business.I don't need practice and I was driving somewhere listening to lots of audiobooks and podcasts and I'd listen to podcast on AI.Just nothing nothing weight-related.Then I switched it off after a while.
That I have went through my head.Okay, how could you streamline the veterinary business through Ai?And one of the things that came up was with was digital.It's the pathology.I was an emergency condition.So sometimes at 2, a.m.
I had a case that I need.Yep.Wanted to make a decision on based on what's on the histopath and I thought or imagined I could scan that.Send it to somebody in America is awake and I have my decision.Now, instead of waiting until tomorrow night, keeping the spirit as a great idea.And I knew it was a good idea.
Yeah, but then immediately, I thought about it for a couple of days or a couple of weeks even and then I went next to hard, got a lot going on.As you said, have kids are like this, and this, and this, I don't have the skill set.I don't know anything about the technology that my other excuse was.
I'm sure it's such an obviously great idea.I'm sure there's going to be a lot of other people working on this.We have the resources and the background.So let it go.This is why.When because we A year, maybe cross paths, and about there was many years ago because yes, I think I saw you on LinkedIn.
Remember that?Remember you reached out to me with this idea that I had had a year or two ago.David said, this is the guy who made exactly the thing that I thought, but the other example don't relate it.This was it this when I lived in Wales started 2015, roundabout there, 2014, as living in the UK and I was surfing.
And I bought my first waterproof camera.That Olympus camera.And I wanted to take going to take it surfing with me.I wanted to film something I wanted to, but I didn't have a housing for it.I couldn't, I wouldn't didn't want to lose it in the ocean and I actually started buying a couple of things to try and help me.
Take my camera, surfing with me.And then I thought I should make something.I even tried Jimmy some system for myself and then let her go.There years later.I heard the story about that first.That's exact same year in the summer.Some guy was in Australia and Same problem, you wanted to film himself surfing and try to design a system and went there's no good system and he designed GoPro.
So I went mad too hard.I work too hard.Let It Go.Yeah.At the same time.There are weird.I'm gonna build something and that's GoPro.So the question is, what made you guys think?There's this problem?Yeah.We don't know what we're doing, but we're going to follow this.
What made you have there?Arrogance, almost to go.Yeah, I think we could tackle this, we can do it.Well, yeah, I mean, I think it takes a little bit of arrogance.I think it, I think it's more confidence, but I think it's a little bit of arrogance, but it's the team man.Like, we were so fortunate to build a team.
I feel like we could conquer problems way bigger than what we conquered the team that we had at lacunae.We had the cool who is an amazing, amazing individual is an analytical chemist had worked in biotech and Pharma.And I've been very early in the CBD, World owned many apps, like understood business operations, Garrett.
I mean, I tell everybody Garrett is a Founder amongst Founders.I mean, he spent 15 years with GE Oil & Gas and was a part of several Acquisitions and leading international teams.The literally showed up one day, you know, we were just actually a wedding together this weekend and we were kind of going down memory lane a little bit about how him and I used to just Clash all the time, right?
Like Garrett.You don't have to understand.And what a path of you is CBC is like just realizes it's out there.Right?And Garrett would always be process mapping and understanding and piecing, all this together, which was extremely frustrating at the time.But now is a skill set that I try to perfect myself because I get how important it is and business, but Garrett showed up one day with a platform.
But yeah, scanner and technology and all of that is important, but if you don't have a platform to move these images to pathologist and report back and he created from you mean like a soft anchoring.Yeah, a software platform just like you submit your rats.So while there is that I guess our and you would be a small Touch of arrogance, others might think different and more confidence.
It was that team.It's that team.That matters.It's two things.It's team and timing, right?You have the best idea in the world.Old.And I mean you literally could you just had two great ideas and that short amount of time.The timing was right for both of them, but if you don't have the team it's impossible.
Maybe that's the key to go.Yeah.These are the limitations.Who else can I get to fill those gaps?But you know, if it was fortuitous and one of your surfing buddies happen to have an injecting molding company for medical devices that could inject mold that Cameron to a device.Yeah.GoPro would have been yours, right?
But but very very seldom are entrepreneurs honest about.Out team and timing, you know, a mentor of mine and a friend.Adam little, you know, it was one of the leaders of Veterinary Innovation worldwide.I love his saying that no one cares about your crappy startup idea.People are afraid to share their ideas and things because they're afraid they're going to get out there.
And people are going to take them if you can't execute on them.It doesn't matter.So, you know, that's another.The other one of the other learnings is we shared this.We were, we were sharing this idea.We were talking with our professors.We were going to conferences.We were asking.In the big lab groups, chase them down a conference is what do you think about this?
But it really came down to the team.And those guys are, you know, I'm here in front of you today.And I'm the, I'm a veterinarian and oftentimes I am.But those guys, those guys are the ones that made this happen.So, how did you build that team?Was it fortuitous?Or did you go looking, did you go right?These are the people we need.
Let's go hunting for them.We had a 16-month interview process, right?Because we had been sitting in business school with these gentlemen, for 16 months.Right?And it's like we an entrepreneur.So there's the All, and we need it.And You know, there's Garrett, right?
So we got to see just how much experience they had and how hard-working they were and their knowledge.And these are, like I said, all of them Founders amongst founders with it.It just was fortuitous that we were in this program and we all were willing to make the leap, you know, you read these business books, they talk about taking the leap to your idea, but we were all willing to do that, which again is another piece.
So it's about possibly about putting yourself in the right environment, go to be surrounded by like-minded.People who are willing to try something like that.Would you say that's accurate?Yeah, I would say.That's a cure and I think that comes down to sharing that idea.You know, like if you keep that idea bottled up, there's risk to that.
I'm not going to say there's not, you know, but if you don't share that idea, you don't find that team.There could be someone right in front of you.Like we had where those guys didn't know anything about the veterinary industry, right?And here they are, you know, I argue that Garrett and his team built, one of the best pieces of software that better.
Any medicine has ever seen and they had no idea of anything going on in veterinary medicine.Right?But if we wouldn't have been able to, you know, we have protected that idea and Connor.I've been like, hey, let's do a, let's do a softball idea for the class.And then once we learn everything, will go do the real idea afterwards.
No, we didn't do that.We don't the idea on the table and we had the expertise of our entire cohort, helping us build the business model and our Capstone, which is the last class to get us out of the NBA.We had to build the business.We had the mentorship of the professor's, we All of that, so, it's, you know, I think putting yourself in that environment.
My grandfather, my grandfather.Always to tell me, show me your friends.I'll show you your future, but I think it's also getting that idea out there.So people can have dropped it with you before.I want to ask you about the actual product, the it's really cool.I've looked into it, but I don't want to ask a few questions.
But before we do that, do you think at some stage and innovate career?It's a good idea to do a business course.I am a ba or Similar, does it add a lot of value?Do you think to your life in general Korea?So I say, let's be honest.If you're a veterinarian, you're a pretty smart guy.
We're pretty smart gal.Right?You could probably teach yourself.This stuff without taking a formal course, right?Like, you know, introductory business stuff is no pulmonary physiology.It's just not like it's not, it's not, it's really not.Okay.
Now I think Advance level start.I mean, it's a strategy see that there because I biology so familiar to me that I find it easy to understand Concepts.Whereas, if I read business books, I'm like, I don't understand the language you speaking.I don't get this at all.Yeah.
Yeah.Yeah.Yeah, totally.I mean, But just like with pulmonary physiology, you'd have to look up some words and things like that.So let's be honest, like a very 100-level introductory accounting class.You could probably teach yourself by reading a book.You know, I just had a conversation with a colleague over the weekend.
She's thinking about going, and get her MBA.And I set this like I speak for Connor, but him and I agree on on this, he's told me over and over again.Yo, really need the NBA and I agree.Like Connor is one of the most brilliant people I've ever met in my life.He could have taught himself everything in that NBA by looking at books and reading, Books and podcasts and talking with people.
I'm not it right.Like, I'm not that person.We talked about that earlier.I could, uh, mixer hard for me.You know, so I needed that structure to be able to get through and get that, but I do think that being open to the idea of understanding business.In today's Veterinary, climate is very important.
And I think it would be my opinion.If you're looking for an alternate career other than clinical medicine, having a basis in business, is the first stepping stone to being able to do that.Do you need to go to that full MBA?Probably not, probably not.Yeah, but but you say that.
But then again the story you just said about surrounding yourself with the right people.People even just that might because I love listening to non-vets that listening and reading, but it's not structured.My learning is not structured.So I learn a lot of things, but I don't know that I can always figure out how to apply it.
And then again, it's a lonely way to do it by yourself with That doing a course or something.You're going to meet, you're gonna meet people who might nudge you in a direction that you didn't even consider.Totally agree.I totally agree.But the question is is there's so much continuing education out there now, right?
Like there's certificate programs from ivy league Business Schools, where you can do five classes over a seven month period and get a certificate in business strategy.Let's say so it's like, you know, that's the question is do you really need that full MBA?Because those have cohorts and those have people on They have chat channels and different way.
I just finished one.You know, they're great.So, that's why I say is, if you're going to make that full commitment to do, the full MBA and education, is what you get out of it.Right?Like doesn't really matter where you go if you're not going to put the effort forth, but you know, I'd say yeah if you like it and want to follow that and then yeah, maybe you go for the full MBA should.
Should it be a part of Veterinary education?Absolutely.I think I think there should be some business elements above and beyond what's out there and some schools are doing a great job with that on our side, you know, Cornell's doing a A job with that and pain is and Colorado State.As I'm sure there's universities down and your neck of the world that are doing it as well.
I think business should be incorporated, but I don't think everybody should go get a full MBA and there's so many mbas out there.It opens up so many doors.Don't get me wrong.But if you have that Veterinary knowledge and you were in practice and you know how practices work and, you know, how they function, you know, how you talk to clients, you know, how to Mentor technicians, and then you go find a niche of business that you get some education.
You're Stood in.There's going to be a career for you without an MBA, right?Let's talk about the product.So, yeah, lacunae is what you build and it's a digital cytology system.Yep, that summarize it pretty nicely.
So how does it work?So you do your smear and I like you would normally.So anything I have a lymph node or whatever you do and then you check it on this machine and then what happens from there?How does the magic happen?Yeah.So take your aspirin.Let it dry.Stain it, right.
So whatever stain be used if quick right schemes or whatever stain it, let it dry.Pop it in the scanner the scanner, you know, there's lots of Technology out there now, you know, we started this in 2016 and others.I don't even know how many players out there doing it so so it's not the magic isn't as easy as just scanning it.
You got to make sure that it's a diagnostic quality image, but we talk about image size a little bit earlier, you know, you gotta have a right size of image to be able to move it.So the scanner goes across and scans the slide.It then basically creates that into an image just like on your phone, you know, it's just a photo so it's not just it's not just a photo.
So because I just you know, you put your iPhone over the microscope.It's not it's not as simple as that.It's actually a.Yeah, so it's whole slide scanning.So we're scanning the entire microscope slide with our product and that's important because the alternative is region of Interest, which is what you're talking about taking a small piece with your cell phone camera.
A lot of what I've been doing over the past few years is Just saying, it's okay as veterinarians to have the humility, that psychology is hard, and that the consequence of making a mistake, in cytology can be great.So by scanning the entire slide and getting it up to a pathologist who you and I driving around and taking small pictures.
I mean, trust me.I've looked at a lot of psychology over the past five years.I'm not very good at it.But just me taking some regions of interest is not what we do.We scan the entire microscope slide.So every cell on that slide could be evaluated by a clinical.Oh, just that then gets uploaded.
Along with the patient information for a pathologist.We have a global team of Pathologists New Zealand, Australia, UK, Germany.All the time zones across the United States, that allow that to be evaluated and a report sent back to you and the hospital.
And I think when we started in 2016, we were getting data that the average global turnaround time was around five to seven days.With some of it being as high as two weeks.What?Yeah, we started doing.We started doing a few thousand cases for an awesome University in Hong Kong when they were struggling to get pathologist and it was a two-week turnaround time for them in Hong Kong and we brought that down to, I think we were averaging one.
Last time.I looked, we were averaging 44 minutes turnaround time.Yeah, so now granted some parts of the world.We manage those expectations.So, Australia, New Zealand, it might be 68 hour turnaround time, you know, New York City.It might be five minutes.But again, it's way faster than the traditional.
Optional method.So yeah, whole slide image gets put up into the portal, fill out the port of what the patient information.Blood work problem list, ultrasound results, whatever you got all of it goes to the pathologist's report comes back to you.And is it 24/7?Because you've got Pathologists around the world if I'm in Australia to in the more obviously, from an ACC perspective.
Yeah.Sometimes you want an answer in the middle of the night.Is that why is that something?That's viable?Yep.Yeah.So like again we've just started.You know, I had this guy Hugh years.That wanted a scanner, but just never really signed the contract.So we're just now, we're just now getting up and running in Australia, you know, so so now you're I love that.
I can tell you why.Well, I love the idea.But it, we, we were very fortunate that I left the reused, a pretty quick turnaround time, 1224 hours, and then it was and I was still still cheaper, but I was very sad not to sign up because I really like that.Yeah.Hey.Just to say you could have the first unit in the country.
I was going to be your agent has come along my lung.Game was going to be, I'm going to want to use it like it and then become the lacunae guys.Yeah, you know, I remember that goes conversations.Yeah.So so yeah, we are, you know, I've spent 90% of my career and in emergency and critical care, and that's what I my internship was in.
And when I go practice on a Saturday, that's what I do.And yeah, we're there 24/7, you know, nights weekends holidays are.Turnaround times, can get stretched out a little bit, but we still do an excellent job.And, you know, when I get pushed back from clinicians and medical directors, about what, you know, I want, To turn around time at midnight and it's like how much cytology you do in at midnight.
You like.Come on, like, you know, come on.How much are you doing?But we still, you know what?I, you know, my role in all of this, we've all had many but one of my one of my key pieces was the strategy like how do we fit the needs of our customers?And what I tell a lot of the emergency clinicians you manage expectations and say very rarely you ever going to transfer, that patient to the next shift without having an answer.
We do a great job of even overnight so it starts Rolling around 26 6:00 a.m.Your time and you're on an overnight.We're scaling up our time to make sure those cases are getting cleared out.So if it's Sunday night and you want to know to refer that, if you're in a big Specialty Hospital, you want to refer that to an oncologist or an internal medicine specialist.
We have that answer for you or if you're in a 24-hour facility and you're like is this spleen neoplasia or not?If it's not, I'll probably keep it.But if it is, we're going to try to get that to University.So we really do a good job of making sure.We get those things finish before the end of your shift.And then as it is, An AI component at all, to the analysis.
Or is it all stalled?Human pathologist?Yeah, great question.So we made it a mission and a part of our mission early on that.Our goal was not to replace the human pathologist.Okay, that was not a completely honor driven mention.
It was it's really hard, other other things histopathology Radiology, artificial intelligence and neural networks.Do a much better job with those specimens because cuz they're perfectly flat.When you look at Psychology, you've got cells on top of cells and neural networks, have a really hard time with that topography scanners do to when it comes to scanning.
I'm so with our system.There is no artificial intelligence forward-looking.We're working on it.We have been working on it.We're working on ways to get two more definitive diagnosis for the pathologist.For instance.You know, how cool would it be with a mast cell tumor, you know, we can't grade them on cytology.
We have to wait till histopath, then we got these drugs coming out, like still Fanta.Where you no longer cut them off and send them off.You treat them with the drug.So you never get a grade.So how cool would it be if a neural network could give you some type of grading on a cytology?And we're working on ways for neural networks to do that.
There are people in the space that are the touting that they have it and they're ready.They're not, that's that's marketing.And I'll say that very confidently, everything is done is read by a pathologist.However, we are working on tools that will make the pathologist faster and make those turnaround times even faster, but also, So most importantly, can we get to a more definitive diagnosis for our pets than what we can currently just with human eyes.
That's super exciting.You mentioned that this base actually quite a few players in the game now and it is funny because I think that's exactly was my thinking back when I had this idea.I sort of thought that I'm sure the people who do this for a living, I thinking the same thing and they working on it and it feels like everybody's sort of reached that reach the same point at the say, at roughly the same time.
Because I suddenly I heard of you first because I was looking and then subsequent have heard of quite a few other companies with something similar.Yeah.Is there anything differentiating the different ones that anything that makes the kuna system unique or again?I'm sure you're not biased at all.What bad.
Well, I mean, I think that I think that there are, you know, I think that this is all I answer this question.I'm not going to answer it by ously.I'm going to answer it how I would look at any technology, right?You got to look.You got to get back.On the marketing, and you got to figure out what's really going on.
So, if I came to you, and I said you, we're X laboratory company.You've heard of us and you use our other stuff.And we've now got this great product.The first thing you should say.Well how many cases have been done through it.Last time?I looked it was some, like, 60,000 paid cases, we have completed and that was way before, joining houska.
It's, you know, now the purchasing power and the scaling of houska is going to make that number go, we've only been with them months, not years, you know, so, So these things break and there's bugs and there's things.You gotta figure it out, Garrett.His team's platform never has went down.Now someday it may we may have a bug.
We've never had it go down.Wow, that's that's because of the team right now.We have scheduled maintenance and sometimes your scanner breaks.We got to send you a new one.Those things happen, but we pride ourselves on we've been here and done this.Our platform is designed to get you the most definitive diagnosis for instance.
Just clicking lymph node and scanning a lymph node, and sending it off with the pathologist want to know some more stuff.Right?And you've got seven things, die on your ER floor.You don't have time to be sitting there thinking you haven't slept in two days.You haven't eaten in half a day.Right?So never even feed all day.
Let's get you haven't eaten or drank anything, right?You know, you gotta follow, you're in, then you're out, you know, so, so so, so our platform is designed to help you have a decision tree to get there.So was it in?Ours.Was it painful or other ones?Enlarged, you know, have you done chest rods on this?
Right?So there's a decision tree that helps the pathologist know.Wow.There's a this is a canine in southeast Australia.That's got a peripheral Lynette lymphadenopathy and has historic interstitial pattern that's been treated on and off with pred that might hit some type of regional zoonotic disease, right?
That if you just click lymph node and send it off, you don't?So yeah, there is a big differentiator for the competitors going to catch up.Yeah.I mean, they will go figure it out.But right now I really like the decisions that we've made it lacunae and which is now, huh?Scoob you?And I really like the way we've positioned it for our customers, which is you the veterinarian.
We aren't worried about sending things off to Reference Lab or not, because we don't have them.We're not worried about.Do we need to read this case, three times for you and charge you three times know, we've built it.So you aspirate that lymph node send it to us and it comes back.All the cells are ruptured.
You can aspirate again and send it back to us.No additional charge, right?Other players aren't doing.My son.Yeah, that's your apples.If you dive past the marketing, you will see that this is the kikuna system that has to be system.Has been designed to partner with you in a hospital.
Not to be your client or not to be your provider.But to be your partner, you real.You literally are hiring.I think 20 now 20 board-certified pathologist to come into your practice and help you with your cases.So you got to get past the marketing to be able to see that.It's an awesome.
Yeah.I think it's time.So the his scope did you guys sell so you built it under the name of lacunae.The did you sell it completely or sell the technology?What, what's the goal?Yeah, it was a full acquisition.We were in competition was, was coming up and, and we were looking for a partner that was going to understand the quality and speed every decision.
We've made.Since 2016 has been based on how do we improve the quality?How do we improve the speed?Kevin Wilson and Jessica, and the team there?Never pushed on that with discussions.They never turn this into a higher margin business by spreading out.
Turnaround times, never talked about limiting, the credentials of our pathologist to cut costs.They wanted to keep the brand and keep the Partnerships as strong as it possibly could and run with it.So we decided to join Husk in February of last year and a bit scaling with them since.
So that's why we're coming to your part of the world.So I you out of it.Now now that it's sold a you as Aaron done with the Kuno.Are you still part of the team?Some have no, I'm still a part of the team, you know.Have not completely transitioned out.You know, we'll see if I'm needed.I think we're getting to that point where I want to have impact and I want to drive it.
Let's be honest like, you know, with a global sales team and a Global Marketing team and people way smarter than me and business.I think the need for me is diminishing.So, you know, those are conversations.We're going to start happening.But, you know, when I get asked this question with our customer base, you know, we work with the big groups and the big Flagship hospital that tell them This has been turned over to the people that are continue what you've seen and I've checked in with hospitals, since joining has come not completely involved in the pathologist anymore.
I'm not completely involved in everything like I was and no one has even noticed which is a great feeling.So can't say I'll be with Husker forever, but we're going to see where I fit in the digital cytology game because I might not be a need for me very, very long from now.Challenges in this journey.It's incredible stories, and it's a pretty quick turnaround.
If he's said, 2016 is not even a 10-year Journey.So Kudos, man.What?What were they points in the January?You almost got stuck where you felt like, you know, this isn't gonna work.I'm I'm I'm about to quit.Did you have any points like that?
I don't think the hardest things about all of this.No, I don't think anybody was ever going to quit.I think we're almost forced to quit a few times.So this whole slide scanning technology were talking about we talked about when we have to that path conference in 2016.These things were 10 times the cost of what they are now.
These scanners.So so we were using with a minimal viable product.Technology was actually software that was created by NASA to, to map the stars in the sky.So, as you would drive ass televised, you would drive a telescope across the Stars, it would record them and then stitch them together to build a map of the Stars.
So there was a company, a canadian-based company that was licensing.This for microscopes.So as you drove across the microscope slide It would Stitch it together.So we were training hospitals, to drive across the slide on 4X, and drive across the slide on 20, and then dry vac lost it on hundred.
And it would build this image that you could then Zoom down into.So we had three of those units going in with, we had no funding.We were going business pitch, competition to pitch competition and pitching to win.Money to buy these things to be able to put them into hospitals, right?
The by these microscope cameras in the Software to put them into hospitals and we were out of money.We had three of these going.We had a platform that was working.We had pathologist that were using it.We had hospitals that were using it.We were out of money and no one was going to.We were going to go to raise any money with this thing that you had to drive around.
I mean no one has time for that.But we were like, we're talking about earlier.We had a minimal viable product, that we were learning, all of these things and adapting our platform and getting ahead.You know, when I say get past the marketing, asking how many cases they've done, we've learned a ton over the On how to do this and modak came out with a scanner.
That was at our price point.That was commercially available that no longer required this to drive and we were able to work with modak to customize that for veterinary hospitals.If we wouldn't had that happen timing.If that tiny would have happened, six months later.We may not have existed as a company anymore.
There's only so much student loans, you can put into a company and, and, and get it going, you know, so, so, so, so, so you didn't have external funding, not enough white stripe.I'm not at that point.No, you know, we had we had all thrown in a few thousand bucks.And and like I said, we were traveling pitch competition to pitch competition, just competing against sometimes Veterinary businesses.
Sometimes we were just walking into you know Big Time competitions where we were competing with people outside the industry.And the winnings of those competitions is how we funded it until this product came out and then we want to pitch competition in Las Vegas and July of 2017.
There's Thousand dollars which allowed us to purchase our first couple of these scanners, then get them out and prove them and we started raising money off of that.So as points, it's really no one's really ever going to quit but there were points where the budget was very, very thin.Let's put it that way.
Yeah.So, what one is Aaron learned from The Last Five Years once, it's one of us.Let's call it a decade.What, what, how do you think differently about things?What have you changed your mind about life or work or yourself or anything in the last 5 to 10 years?
I think I think personally my vision of success has changed a lot.I think that well, I know that at one point I thought being my mentor, John was it you And had I done that, I think that success that would have been success and that would have been great.
And then at one point, I thought I was going to be a board-certified surgeon and you know, it had I ever passed boards that would have been successful to, you know, I think that was it.But really, what's changed for me is is more impact, like, it's not fame.It's not money.
It's not Being in the spotlight and I love having conversations like this, but it's really, how can we impact more pets and more Veterinary teams, you know, the veterinary space is very sensitive.We're fortunate to be where we are.New grads are coming out making more money than they've ever made.
Pets are getting better care than they ever have, but it's very sensitive.We need as entrepreneurs and and business people, we need to be responsible in my vision.Of success, has changed a lot over the past five years, because it's not paying off my student loans.Or Going on vacation that makes me successful.
It's not those monetary things.It really my perspective on having impact for our profession has changed a lot to what I Define as success.Maybe that's something you've went through to you know, it's not one pet at a time but having something like this to inspire other people is your way of doing that but that has changed a lot over the past five years and maybe that's normal.
Maybe that's not I don't know but that's the first thing that pops into my mind.So, what's the impact that you hope to have?Through and it will come back to us next few.But what, what, what's the impact that Aaron would like to leave on the way profession?Well, I think that any time, there's big money, there's big business, right?
Like, you know, there's now big, big money and vet, Med Brothers organizations that own candy, bar companies, and and there's Gordon ization, Zone fast, food, chains and banks that you have a credit card in your wallet.They also in veterinary hospitals.
The impact I want to have is to steer that those things in the right direction.But like we talked about with cytology.I really want to have the impact that we are changing things to benefit all the stakeholders and not just the bottom line profit.Margins, great, you know, multiples on eBay.
They're great, which is a big thing that veterinarian talk about these days that 20 years ago.They would have been like ibadah.Like, is that what is that?Was that a cardiac disease even though?I don't know what that is.You know that what you get when you dog, you to grain-free diet is ibadah, but but, but I want to, I want to be I want to be at a spot where they can help be the litmus test on where we should be driving things to benefit the pet, the pet first, and the pet parent and the in the veterinary team s to me.
That's that's, that's where the impact is for.Someone like myself.I love clinical medicine.I hope to get back there, full-time, someday and have some impact there.But right now, I'm thinking about thinking about the business end and how to help steer these ideas on a bigger level than what we've been working on.
How you doing clinical work.At the moment, they're not at all a little bit.Oh, yeah.I mean, you know, I try to be that that guy that will pick up the, ER, relief, relief, shift on the weekend.It's been a couple months since I've done it but I really have the goal to try to get into shifts a month.
So we're going to get back to that here.This summer with travel diet down.But yeah, I love it.I'm not nearly as fast as I was.I'll tell you that, you don't use it, you lose it.But yeah, still still practicing as much as I can.And then what's next?If you are not needed, if attends that you not You needed and lacunae / S curve.
You next moves.We got if you got plans or do you still need to decide or what?What's tickling your interest at the moment?I mean, it's a lot of cool stuff.You know, I think the genomic Space is really interesting.I've been focused on diagnosing cancer for the past six years.
So obviously the genomics side of cancer is really interesting.I think diving in there would be fun.Obviously, telemedicine is interesting.I'm not a don't pound the drum on telemedicine.I don't think telemedicine is going to fix every problem in veterinary medicine, but I do think there are key pieces to Telehealth and telemedicine that they are profession can benefit from Lacuna, being one of them teleradiology being one of them, you know, who knows what else.
So, that's an interesting space for me, Precision medicine, kind of along the genomics and I'm not sure, you know, what's Precision medicine.Meaning, meaning tailoring treatments for the individual patient, based on their genetics, and that stuff like that.Yeah.So what you mean, if you take the cancer space, you know, the oncogenes and people are Same as the oncogenes and dogs, right?
So if you're even a certain set of mutations in a certain Gene being able to prescribe that drug to that Gene rather than, you know, starting with bread and getting on a chopper protocol for lymphoma.That's what's that's what's going on.Right?Like, that's what's going on in the genomic space right now is you and I we think about lymphoma in four buckets were really three buckets.
We think about small cell, intermediate cell, and large cell lymphoma, right?And then whenever we go to large cell, Like well be versus T.V is back, be bad t-terrible, right, but these that's where we end as, as you are clinicians, right?Get the sample, send out the flow, get the dog, start on, pred, get it feeling better.
And then, let's see what we got.And now, which I'm no expert in this.But the way I understand it is, we're diving into the mutations of these oncogenes, like, you know, for lymphoma.And there might be a hundred different subtypes of small cell lymphoma.So, you know, for me this is so interesting because we've All had those dogs that have done really well on a chop protocol.
We've had other ones that haven't done well, and is that?Because some of those mutations respond, well, to a chop and other ones, don't, I don't know.But to me that's just super interesting to where Precision medicine could be going.Not only for veterinary, you know, but but then where that can translate over to humans.
So if you have back in back of your knee, at the start of your MBA, and they said you, you need to start a business project, but it's now it's 2022.What would you start?And where do you think you'd head?I'd opened veterinary hospitals.
I really I would.I would just just because it's the the demand is so high.No, it's not that it's it's it's challenging.Right?We don't have enough vets.We don't have enough Veterinary technicians, but I'm not that anything.So I think, I think the IV MBA is until you're absolutely crazy to go into a market where there's no resources, but there's some companies in groups out there doing some really different stuff.
I really like what Steve items doing it, modern animal.Are you familiar with them?So ads for it?I didn't know his name.Yeah, but I've seen some of their marketing and it's, yeah, it's cool.They're doing it differently right there, getting control of everything.All the tech, the practice manager software, the telemedicine, the hospital, the train, their internalizing at all.
You know, that's really cool.There's another one Bond.They're based on New York City there.They've got an Urgent Care kind of hybrid Urgent.Care.Somewhat ER, model with general practice.It's cool.I I think there's room for people who think about veterinary hospitals differently to impact the health of paths and all stakeholders, the pet.
Like we said, that's a must.There has to be impact and it has to be impact on the pet Patient First, and then the veterinary team and the pet parent s.And I think if I was going to start today, I would start diving into the niche markets of where could we really impact Veterinary Hospital?
Maybe that's low cost clinics.Maybe that's Boutique.Concierge medicine.I don't know.Yeah, if you steal out all those needy, wealthy clients, maybe there's more room for for the other ones, you know, at the veterinary hospital.I don't know.But my knee-jerk reaction is that I would build hospitals because we've got to be able to do them more efficiently without the cost of our people.
That's a big lift though.That makes digital cytology seem easy and makes it that makes it sound easy.Yeah.I must admit.I think the same, I often think why in the current market.Am I not in business ownership anymore?Except and I know partially, why?It's because of exactly the challenges because it's fragonard.
Yeah, and I know a lot of people who are in business and it's, yeah, it's exhausting, but exactly that, finding a way to do it in a sustainable manner, where you're not relying, on employing, 20 rates for your mess of hospital or a hundred takes.Yeah.We'll make life much is.
I often wonder about niching down condition-wise.So none non-specialists run but specialized that business So let's say we handle all of your tricky in crime cases.Yeah.So the ones that suck up all the time out of it.
Can you can all the way to go?It's that my big cat that we just can't get under control.Yep.They do want to go to a specialist or we don't have access to save all this guy.That's all they do.Yeah, go chat to them.I wonder about that as a solution and you get really good at that.
I love it.I mean, it's just like outpatient surgery centers and human men, right?Or Or renal dialysis, right?Like you're not going to a specialist to get your GPS.You know, I agree.
I mean, I just think like, you know, this is when it comes back to that impact thing.It's I don't want to just build veterinary hospitals to get to it. 22 ibadah, and sell it for a multiple of 15 and retire, right?Like I don't like, and I've got a mortgage and student loan debt, and I drive an 11 year old car, but there's gotta be to be a way to Niche into that, where you get the multiple and we can better the profession.
I'm watching it happen.I mean, I think Steve and mo at Steve, modern animal and Mo Vaughn.I think they're extremely talented operators.I think they're very, very, very smart people and dedicated to the profession.They're doing it.I'm watching it happen.
What isn't what?You know, what is the next Niche?You know, where are those small pieces?Like you said?Yeah, Indigo endocrine cases diabetics, you know.We're seeing oncology centers pop up in the US where that's all they do is oncology and they've got Surgical and Medical oncology radiation oncology there.
So that, you know, you as the, the hospital owner that square footage now, gets to turn into a Dermatology sweet, not oncology because you move that, you know, to another building.But I agree.I think there's got to be a way to do it a little different.And if I could sit by could sit in a room with 64 professionals that were as talented as the ones in the NBA, and be like, well, like, Guys.
A franchising expert.And that guy's a real estate guy.Maybe we could.We could find that, you know, so, you know, but that's like that's kind of where I'm pointing on things.It seems like you you think that's a win to person, brings to mind what you're talking about the impact.Like, I've got keep mentioning him because I'm obsessed with his podcast.
But Safe Garden.Don't know if you're familiar with his books and his podcast, but he is saying that he uses all the time to honor his service, mantra' is make things better by building better.Things that fits with what you're describing them.Yeah, like things better.
That's the first thing that should be the goal.Yeah, and then there's the means.All right.Let's wrap this up made.Are you podcast listener?You know, I was a few stressful moments and in my career so far and acquisition was one of them.And we had a great acquisition experience.
I mean, Kevin and his team was so generous to us and helping us as young entrepreneurs through that.But I took the whole year of 2121 and said, I'm not going to listen to any podcast.I'm not going to read any business books.So I've been kind of, you know, I tried the whole Netflix thing out.
That's not for me, but I'm going to get back into it, but don't really have any.Sorry.Why did you make the decision?Just because you were mentally too busy with other stuff and you didn't want more info.Me or what?What was their decision based on?I mean, That's all we have.
If you think about it, that's all I've been doing.You know, I'm 38 years old and that's all I've been doing.Basically since my adult life started at age, 18 is learned things to push things forward, right?Like, so I started picking up books like the history of medicine, right?
Rather than listening to podcasts and business or things like that.So I was talking about talking to a friend about this and they're like, well, you know, you don't have to cast all podcasts aside.Maybe you should listen to some other stuff.So So, that's where we're at now.Is, I guess I'm supposed to listen to How We Built This.
People are telling me that's a good one, you know, but I've kind of just stayed away from all of it recently.And the decision was just, I need a break from the grabbing every white paper, every book, every podcast, every Everything to learn about everything that I've kind of paused.
So if you have a recommendation on me getting back into it, then please give it to me, but I don't have any to really recommend to the listeners.Save good, save good into Kimbo podcast is It's more philosophy.Yeah, it's more.It is a marketer, but it's not, he talks about everything.
It's actually really easy.Okay, entrance.It's not too deep to more about values and doing the right thing rather than strategy.So that would be going to start.But do you suppose to be the one getting?All right.So if you've been digging into books more rather than park at what about books, I have you come across anything in the, in the last year, that is shaped the way.
Yeah, I like three red.That's a good one.I We read in the past year deep work by Cal Newport.Are you familiar with this familiar with Cal from?Yeah, he's got no, I just, you know, deep works really changed the way I operate as a professional.
I think that having cloudy thoughts and not having a clear to-do list, really mess with your ability to function at a high cognitive level.So maybe this comes back to that honeybee research back in the in the day, but I really, I really focus on now on.
On getting blocks of time set of part with no interruptions.So, you know, whether that means grab a notebook and Hiking to the top of the mountain and sitting there for four hours and thinking about something, or just shutting my office door and turning off all my technology to really dive deep into problems and solutions, rather than having a scatterbrain with slack going off and your phone going off.
I mean it Lacuna.We were running customer support for years.So, you know, we have slack going 24 hours a day 7 days a week and taking shifts on the Canden, I'd come back from for overnight, sleep for six hours, and go on call to run customer support.So, so, I was really on the other end of deep work.
So if you haven't, you know, anybody out there who hasn't read deep work.I highly suggest that I think it goes, doesn't matter if you're sitting down to drop, soccer plays for your kids, or if you're trying to build a business, you know, working in the way that Cal describes with deep work, is something I highly recommend called that's going to be able to download it straight away.
Because Something I struggle with is that summarized distraction.Again, you can, if you can imagine, there's always a hundred things to do.I'm going to edit this and do that, and then there's the kids.Yes, then that and you're right.It's it means.Ali is hosting an exhausting to try and do one thing while your minds busy with five other things.In the background, they were, and the key is getting rid of the baggage shoe.
You got to get rid of the baggage, right?Like if there's that one thing that's been on your to-do list, when you need it for 45 days and is overdue.Like, I've got a parking ticket.I don't even remember getting a parking ticket, but I got a parking ticket thing sent in the mail.So like today, Before I did any deep work, I had to get that parking ticket taken away because they would have been on my mind this baggage the whole time.
I was trying to focus.So not only do you turn off your all your technology, got to get those things are going to bother you away.So you can that's good though.It's good, but it's tricky because there's often multiple what I often try and do is to say okay these what's the important thing that I need to do and focus dedicate some time on that first and then do all the shitty things.
I don't feel like doing but you're right.But I don't think that is in the back of your head.I've got to do this other thing.But if you start, if you open the Pandora's box of the things that are bothering, you that needs to be done.Yeah, it could keep you busy all day.Yeah.Yeah.That's that's very true.
I mean, I think it's to each his own, however, it works.But for me I could make sense makes a lot of sense.Yeah, so you think so the time it was really good to meet up with you again to an I've never really forget about not having the first scanner in Australia, so Last questioner.
Yeah, one message you talking to all the weight new grads in the world, but you kind of are because you're on the on the video podcast and you have a couple of minutes to give them one message for the Korea, has one little bit of advice.What's your one message?I guess would be two things.First.Don't take some guy on a podcast too.
Seriously, and the second thing would be you know, like I think the advice that John gave me really resonated, you know, you got to think about veterinary medicine globally, you can't Just think about the veterinarian.You are right now or the veterinarian you want to be God.
I keep an eye on what's going on in this profession.You got to stay relevant because If you don't, you're going to get behind and it doesn't mean you have to be an expert of all things as we have to read every Journal.But you know, listen to some podcasts and surfing around and what's going on is really important and remembering that impact is always should come first.
And I think in today's profession we sometimes or I guess most of the time as veterinarians, let that come at a cost to us and you need to have a buddy to stop that from happening, you know, so think globally.Don't forget that impact.It's one patient at a time or doing something big, you know, to like multiple patients.
Those are, those are equally as important, but also, you're not alone in this profession and it does get tough.Those things are real.I've experienced them and you got to have the network to support through that, and you've got to be that Network for other people.And then if you do those things, this is an awesome profession.
I mean, we're veterinary medicine, and pet health is going with all these things.We're talking about very, very as a new grad coming into this, I would say, Just as cool as being an astronaut so, you know, well, yeah, I said it.I said it.This is my astronaut, right?I mean, with what's going on in vet Med right now, coming into this space now, compared to the 30 years ago, very fortunate to be a new grad in veterinary medicine with all the doors out there and what's going on.
So go get them.Okay, two quick things before we go.He has could, do they making a super aggressive play at winning your business.So they have a deal where if you switch your emails labs to Jessica, before the end of June, they will give you a clinic free consumables for six months.
Mmm.Now, there are obviously some requirements that your practice only to meet, but you are not going to see this special advertise on their website or anywhere else.They making it available exclusively to you guys our listeners.So give them a call.To see if you qualify for six months of free consumables.
Now, I know that many of you are not practice owners.So how much the lab disposables cost is of no real consent to you.But here's my plan, go to your bus.And here's what you say.If I can save you tens of thousands of dollars this year, guaranteed.Can I have half of what we save?
That's it.Don't tell them anything else yet.Only when they say yes, and maybe sign a little contract you tell them about this deal.Seriously.Try it.I would love it if Animals are six months from now and tells me that they've just in themselves.Like thirty thousand dollar bonus.Okay, the next thing, wait, Wildlife, we planning a mini conference right here in Noosa on the Glorious Sunshine Coast, which today after two months is finally sunny.
Again, we've locked in Professor Joe medicine and Professor Dave Church to world-class medicine teachers who I'm sure you're all familiar with, we have them locked in for the 23rd and 24th of November this year, and we're going to work them real hard.For some intensive learning sessions filled with questions and workshops and case studies.
This is not going to be your average kind of conference.It is the red felt after all our key topics will be in chronology conundrums and clinical reasoning.But if you've ever listened to them on, any of our clinical podcast, you'll know that will definitely stray far and wide.We also planning a bit of fun all work and no play and all that sort of stuff, right?
Likely involving the beautiful waterways and the mountains, around, and Risa for a day or two before.And after the clinical event.So far, we've locked in our speakers and our venues, but we still tidying up a few details before we officially start advertising, but we thought we'd tell our listeners about it.
First.The thing is, it's going to be a small event.We talking 50 people's Max to keep it nice and intimate and we'd love it if we could fill the room with vet fatherlessness.So here's what we're doing, a vet V.Clinical subscribers will get first pick and then we're going to get the rest of our listeners at you guys, in through the door at a discounted rate.
So if you're Rested in joining us, shoot us an email at V broadcast at gmail.com to reserve a spot.Make sure to tell us that you heard about it on the podcast.And then once we have final details and pricing, you will get a first in best-dressed, special kind of special.We hope to see you there.

Dr Aaron Wallace