April 27, 2022

#67: The Mental Rectal Part 1: Rumination. With Rhonda Andrews:

#67: The Mental Rectal Part 1: Rumination. With Rhonda Andrews:
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Season 1

If you’re a regular Vet Vaulter you’ll be well familiar by now with psychologist Rhonda Andrews from our previous episodes with her on trauma and grief. We love Rhonda, and based on your feedback YOU loved Rhonda. So we’re going to make this a regular thing. Here's what we're thinking: Rhonda will have conversations and counselling sessions with real vets facing real challenges about something that the guest is wrestling with. Rhonda will help them explore solutions and strategies to help them get unstuck and prepare them for things yet to come. We’ll then join Rhonda to unpick the conversation with additional questions and comments, and you get to listen in and apply the strategies to your own career. The aim is to do a really thorough examination of the chosen topic - like a full health check, but for the mind - hence our possibly tasteless but highly illustrative name for this series, because you KNOW that you haven’t done a proper exam until you’ve done the rectal... In this episode, Rhonda is joined by Dr Kurt Enzinger, an equine vet and practice owner with two decades in the vet game under his belt, a busy practice and a stretched team, just like vet teams around the world. Rhonda and Kurt explore that very disruptive and counter-productive thing that our minds tend to do to us at the most inconvenient times: rumination. We cover what it is, how to prevent it, spot it, and stop it.  If you don’t know her yet - Rhonda is the founder, managing director and senior psychologist at the Barrington Centre, a specialist psychological firm that works with individuals and teams to help them address complex environments. Rhonda also helped create a program specifically modified for the Vet Profession called Systems of Support, or SOS.  Go to thevetvault.com for show notes and to check out our guests’ favourite books, podcasts and everything else we talk about in the show. If you want to lift your clinical game, go to vvn.supercast.com for a free 2-week trial of our short and sharp high-value clinical podcasts. We love to hear from you. If you have a question for us or you’d like to give us some feedback please get in touch via email at thevetvaultpodcast@gmail.com, or just catch up with us on Instagram. And if you like what you hear then please share the love by clicking on the share button wherever you’re listening and sending a link to someone who you know will enjoy listening.

I don't think you can have a podcast for weights on how to thrive in their careers without talking about psychology, the mental and emotional challenges that kid, hold at us on a daily basis.Definitely requires a significant amount of ongoing preventative care and maintenance.It's like that iPhone Ed from a few years ago with the phone in a wind tunnel with all crapping bone onto it.
It might be a sturdy phone but if you don't stop every now and again to give it a good clean sooner or later you won't even be able to see the screen in the buttons will get All sticky.If you're a regular vet filter, you'll be well familiar by now with psychologists around the Andrews from a previous episodes with her on trauma and grief.
If you don't know it yet, Rhonda is the founder managing director and a senior psychologist at the Barrington Center, a specialist psychological firm that works with individuals and teams to help them address, complex environments around.The also helped create a program, specifically modified for the vet profession called systems of support or SOS.
We love Rhonda and Send your feedback, you loved Rhonda.So we're going to make this a regular thing.See it as switching off that wind tunnel every now and again and wiping off the gunk.Here's how we're going to do it.Rhonda will have conversations or counseling sessions with real weights, facing real challenges about the stuff that they struggle with the stuff that comes flying on to that screen, they'll explore Solutions and strategies to help them get unstuck from current problems and to prepare them for the things yet to come, we will then wrap up the conversation with someone Additional questions and comments and you get to listen in and apply these strategies to your own career.
Will do a really thorough examination of each topic which explains our possibly tasteless.But highly illustrative name for the series because you know, that you haven't done a proper exam until you've done the rectal in this episode.Rhonda is joined by dr.
Curtin Zinger, and equine, vet and practice owner with two decades in the vet game, a busy practice and a big team who like the rest of us.Currently facing a very heavy workload rounder and Kurt explore that very disruptive.And counterproductive thing that our minds tend to do to us at the most inconvenient of times rumination as weights, we know exactly what that means.
Literally repeatedly vomiting up the same old thing so we can chew on it a bit longer, isn't that just the best word to describe the mental vision of this process?We cover.What it is, how to prevent it spotted and stop it, please enjoy.
Boy, Rhonda good and rumination.Welcome back rounded to the podcast.Thank you very much indeed.It's delightful to be back.We want to tie a bow on your discussion with Kurt on rumination.Yep.Damn it was a great conversation with Kurt on the rumination and as true to someone who is even though he says, he's not a ruminator.
He really ruminated.We went down all these little rabbit holes.Yeah, he said there is a lot of You there.I that there's not a lot more to be said, I think you guys covered it really well.I wanted to highlight or double-click on a few of the things you mentioned and of course I have questions.
I always have questions just be clear, maybe as an introduction just to Define it a bit more clearly because again, we live in our heads that way we live in the past and we live in the future and and inevitably replaying and reviewing stuff that has happened.
That's annoying, but it's normal to do it to some degree.Wait, when is it that we cross that line between normal evaluation, the post-match analysis of what's happened in your day or your hair or whatever and then when does it flick into rumination.
Yeah.And it's a it's a really good point because as you see just saying you know it's normally quite healthy to reflect on things.But when does it shift from being healthy to unhealthy?And I think for me, one of the Things before people listen to what Kurt has to say is we've got to really Define what is rumination.
And just as importantly what does it actually feel like?And for me rumination is focusing on something that's happened and looking at what caused it and how it made you feel and it's been stuck in the thought pattern that you go over and over and over it, but you're actually not focusing on any solutions or actions or how to move.
Move forward.So what happens is you really feel stuck in the thought cycle but you can't get off.And, and you're very much stuck in the past because you're stuck in the memory of what's occurred rather than what's changed or what you can change.
And so it's a it's got a deep powering part in it and if I, if I parallel veterinarians in the vet Veterinary sector, So that's nurses.That's the Administration staff and everyone I've paralleled that system with the medical system.
They actually have a very similar High rate of rumination and just in our anecdotal evidence.You know, people actually say to us that on average we're getting up to about 80% of people with in both these professions saying rumor.
Nation is something that they really do regularly.That's high.That's very high for one profession.Well and and two professions that are very similar.I would say to people, let's actually unpack it, what does it feel like?And the commentary that I hear and Barrington he is from different Veterinary staff is that they talk about getting stuck in a thought pattern, they really feel that it comes on at night.
I'm so it really plays them during the night.They wake up sort of someone's thrown on a switch and all of a sudden their brains kicked in.It could go on for hours or it can go on every night of the week and it really interferes with the sleep pattern and it has a real flow on effect.
Because what happens then is when people then don't get enough sleep, they get as we know fatigued and then the consequences of that are physical symptoms.Of reduced concentration getting ratty feeling agitated people, sometimes in procrastinate.
And so it really has that secondary and tertiary consequences.So when you ask the question of when is it freak over it?Flicks over when you are repeatedly just going over.
The same thing that you know I say to people on sort of like a rough rule of thumb Stop.Three times is really enough.If you have two three times of rehashing, the same thing and you're actually not coming up with anything, you're going to do differently or anything you're going to now, do because of it, then you're in the risk category of it becoming unhealthy.
I really like this because it's we're getting practical now, because a lot of the wellness or the mental health things, we talked about About.It's always like clinical way to work it, so you can understand or you can know the knowledge but when the shit hits the fan to actually apply, it is a different story.
Sometimes you can read all the books and understand it and then it happens to you.And I think what you discussed, their of recognizing it, the self-awareness of going at hang on.Otherwise you just drown in these?Yeah, circular feelings.
I was almost self-flagellation and you don't know why you're unhappy?No, no.A but you have to recognize it I like that we talking about it what is it feel like because if you can't identify this feeling that I'm having that's this name and you can't do anything about it or you less likely to act upon it.
Let's switch over to your conversation was good and see if you had any more insights for us on, what does it feel like?What does it look like?If I could just step back for a moment and just speak about.Well, let's look at all the raft of things that stress us and there's a myriad.
Then I'm sure can give us heaps of those.And what I'm really looking at here is, you know, we've got if you like our emotional well-being, we've got our mental well-being, and we've also got our physical well-being.
And so, all three parts play.An integral part of success of being able to A resilient being able to adapt and be agile and be able to deal with the different things that come onto our plate, that don't bury asst or snow us under.
And so it times, I'll be asking, Kurt, certainly, from an individual perspective, what that means for him.Now they has a knock-on effect to his team.And if from an organizational perspective or if you like the project, Professional perspective.
What else is the overlay on that?Because for me Solutions are at an individual team and a system level and I'd like to bring all three into play.So let's get into it.I warmly welcome our current nzinga and he's going to kindly help me unpack it.
So, if I asked you, what does rumination mean for you and what does it look like either?You offer others around.You are just walking your thoughts.Yeah.
Rhonda I think that rumination to me, it's something that I do probably in retrospect.Now think about all the time and it's probably something that I try and avoid all the time and and try and get the rest of my team to avoid it.You know, conducting yourself making decisions on on cases or you know other things during the day so that you don't have any regrets or it's not going to keep in my staff would attest to this.
I'd always say, you know, do what you got to do, so you're not going to lay awake tonight thinking about it.And so I try And disperse that during the day, so that you don't ruminate when you go home.Because I think that's when you do ruminate is, when you're by yourself when the stimulation is gone.And, and, you know, maybe when you're laying there at night in bed, looking to try and go to sleep, and for me, that's the definition of rumination is that when you get something that's, that's, they're turning in your mind and keeping your mind active and consuming your thoughts.
So, that's something that's on my radar that I try and avoid for the team and myself.Energy say it really is plaguing, isn't it like it, just hammers you yes, yeah, it's consumes your thoughts.I think consumes your Baseline for small talk.
It's interesting that the things that you say that you guys come across to me.It's almost a, it's a repetitive thought process, but it's associated with physical manifestations of negative emotions.Yes, exactly.So increased heart rate or thin snake or every time that Thought enters your head again, there's a definite happiness goes 20.
Yeah or stomach or your stomach goes in every time you try not to think of it but every time you do your stomach's in a knot or something like that and you know and then people have really Associated triggers like a smell or I can't.
Or a visual of something and I know people who, let's say that they've not had a good experience, with some particular surgery and the, you know, they've looked into it and they've discussed it with colleagues and they say, look you know, this is I didn't do it as well as I wanted, I'd like to do it next time.
So all of a sudden all the events or the environment of that particular, what they classify was a perfectionist a disaster.They can be somewhere.Is well, outside the surgery and all of a sudden, I have that color of that snow bang.
They straight into going right back into that surgery again.And as we all know, once it starts consuming your thoughts, then, you know, it's really starting to impact then upon you emotionally and just your level of physical energy and just how you may be tired.
So, I guess I'd be interested in.How does it show itself?How?For instance, I was talking to a student vet and they were looking at some of the surgery that done and they were ruminating Exactly.As you just said, they could at nighttime and they were looking at all the research looking at all their books to actually say, how could a way done a better job on that surgery and so they were really what I'd call self-flagellating.
Yeah, beating themselves up about.I did that wrong.I could have done that better and so they might spend hours of a night time reflecting and reassessing their performance in surgery.So I'd like to know from your perspective.How do you know it's there?
How do you know it's there in in, in your staff?I think what you've said there, there's a lot of points that I could comment on from those that your last comments there for me body language or just I hire a team of high Achievers.
You know, like minded people, we need to be culturally aligned, same core values.All aligned to be able to work in his team.And so, I think a high achiever suffer this more because they do strive for the best, they do, I'll often side of the guys, you know, you want to be better tomorrow than what you were today and that's how I sort of look at life in general and try and drive the team.
But I think lack of enthusiasm.I'm quite a jovial, sort of a person and keep things light when I can or not.What I can all the time mate.Basically you can make a joke at every situation and you sort of see I suppose I look at their their reactions to that that sort of my characteristics and if they don't react the way they normally would or if they're a bit more quiet.
Your lackluster, I suppose in their day-to-day, maybe it's showing up to work a few minutes late.Maybe it's not saying back to finish that report or whatever.That's how I probably noticed that I don't tend to notice it as much in their work.I think they're very very diligent and if they're coming up to a case that they don't aren't sure of they will be in those text books or online looking at studies before they jump in.
But I think how do we know ourselves?We met ruminate and I think it's if it's if it's in your subconscious, if you are Worried.And that's what I say.Whether it's surgery whether it's a call on a medical case or whether it's even just maybe the way you spoke to a climber handled a conversation with a client or responded to an email, even as simple as that.
I think you know in your heart that maybe you haven't done the best that you could do in that situation though.I think it's good to ruminate a little bit to see how you can avoid it next time but not dwell on it.Yeah, and that's a really good point and you tie that in really nicely cooked with the whole thing about Perfectionism, you know, you've got an 18, they're going to be people that are high Achievers.
So by default, they're going to be self-critical and that's an asset.Providing it doesn't then become a plague where it just perpetuates and they can't let it go.So it's about as you say, great to do an evaluation or review, but not when it becomes so repetitive that it becomes destructive.
Yeah.So let's do it.Dive into you.What are you ruminating on?And when does that happen, and how does it look and does anyone in the family know?It's at me.I think I can't say how they can't know I during these times a little bit bit, little bit unique.
We have it to Porsche and we've been really busy as the that our industry has been through all of covid-19.A lot of the Vets, we do know how to work hard.We can dig in and do the job.But I think for me, Me personally not being able to have.I don't take a lot of time off but two weeks a year, I do go with the family to North Queensland and where I can't help, I can't chop wood, I can't mow Lawns, I can't do any of those things.
If I had that, I have to at home in the same post code as work.But those two weeks I didn't realize, because I've missed out on that two years in a row.Now, that that is actually my total unwind and where I can be Dead to my family and they get my undivided attention because I haven't got work to deal with work.
A really respectful, they don't ring me.Unless it's an absolute dire emergency and I probably bring them when I wear away gets twice a week just to check in to see that they're okay.And that, that for me has been the biggest thing through covert SOI that form.He's high on my agenda, my list at the moment.
For what I, what I ruminate about that, there's no point really ruminating about it because it's nothing that's out of my control.So, I think we only room a bit and ruminate about things.Are within our control that we can change.And so for me staff, the team running the team is probably it's one of my vital functions.
What I do and I have because of the fatigue and the with covid and things and keeping on pushing through, you know, I don't get enough sleep.I'll admit probably drink too much alcohol.More than what I normally would to try and get that relaxation.
Perhaps it nice.And I'm lucky, I'm a really good.So I don't I try and clear my head before I go to bed.So I really don't ruminate.I probably work 13 to the Dozen during the day so that's probably what not doing.My rumination is driving between jobs and seeing, which is the biggest fire of got to put out next.
But are running the team staff, making sure they're okay.And, you know, it's hard when you are fatigued to, you know, you don't scheduling reviews as you just said, you know, reviews are great to such an asset and it's been brought to my attention recently.
That we haven't done reviews for a very long time and they are a good chance to vent or address the real issues before they become larger ones.And so we haven't been able to do that by haven't had a practice manager through the covid period.So that's been difficult having to take on the HR issues or not taking on the HR issues as the case may be.
And looking after the staff in that way, because it's probably as the boss.It's maybe not as pertinent as it is to the staff and I'm mail and all of It's a female not that, that makes a difference to me, but that can make a difference with HR if you've got to come and talk to me or something.
If they might not feel comfortable about certain issues, you're probably during the dark, me is the rumination time and not at night and and I'm probably a little bit unique in my position as a boss rather than the employees, but I think there's a couple of really key points.I'd like to pick up on that point.
You made the comment about rumination, you know, are we ruminating about things that are inside our control or outside our control.Control.And I think, you know, often when I speak to people and they talking about rumination often when they can have a look at things that they can evaluate and have the chance to go back and improve upon, then they've got a way of measuring the value of reflecting or the value of letting that go through their brains.
And I think that's really effective.I think that is a really valuable part of our performance.Almonds for our satisfaction because we see.Okay, I've had a look at that.I know a way I can do it better and I'll try it and and you know odds on it usually works and so there's gets reinforced as a strategy the stuff that I see which really Spirals and brings people down is when they're ruminating about things that are outside their control.
So they're going over and over and over stuff.And so if you like They're going back and back and back over it which then just brings them down and exhaust them I guess for me they're the ruminations or the critique that people have of themselves which don't actually add value to the Improvement if they turn around and say what would I do differently?
Next time.Totally different story.But if the rumination is just going over, what's happened?It's a dead.It's a dead duck and it doesn't When you would hear people doing that and how do you handle it?It's hard because all the different staff members do it differently and they all have their strengths than week and weaknesses and some care more about comments from other people and some deal with it.
Let you know, water off a duck's, back type of situation.And for me, it's hard when I get presented with a staff member, that's already cooked themselves about the issue and they show up to work.It's got nothing to do with work and it's something out of their control, but it does affect them emotionally and it does affect them.
And then therefore it affects Work.And you can't be the, well, I can't be the big bad boss.Saying, we still got a few days work and expect them to, but I try and just give them some sort of allowances.I mean, they've often is often nothing.You can say that's going to change the way they feel.
I try and help in other ways you know by and you can always offer other things or I don't know some time off or whatever.And I think if you some really challenging one, as you said, because often those ones outside people's control, And and you can't fix it, they can't fix it but yet it is impacting upon them and nicely as you put it.
Kurt you see the interconnection and the consequences and it's a bit like a vicious cycle and then the person may feel in some way a reaction to what how they're working.And then it becomes a cycle and I think your points are really good one.
It's trying to break the Nexus of that.It's trying to break that have a Break every me and the circuit breaker can be time.Off the circuit breaker can be, you know, some acknowledgement can often be a great thing, doesn't have to be in monetary terms, it's a verbal acknowledgment something that most people really appreciate that.
They then think that person, whether that be my boss, whether that be my coworker, whether that be a family member, they get Me, they understand what I'm sad about all.What is stressing me at the moment and that listening part, you know, Kurt?
Yeah, I'd like to give you credit, you're a good listener and so therefore you listen to what's happening to people and that by being able to acknowledge that to people is half the battle, because when people don't feel hurt, that's when they get pissed off.
And I feel that communication is Most breakdown over breakdowns or misunderstanding.It's all through lack of effective communication.And I think that just direct communication rather than through somebody else, or through another means of, for me, direct communication is the best way.
Because if you don't know, I mean we're not mind reader's.And we've got, as I said before, I've felt the most stretched in my career ever in the last, you know, definitely 12 months.And so my, my receptors are probably going to be down or taken up already and I'm not going to notice as much as I maybe should.
And so one of my techniques is I try and relate back to team.So for staff members down or two or whatever, and often one stuff in the down, can bring another one down, and another one, and another one.And so, I try and do some sort of team-based thing there, whether it's just taking me out for dinner for no good reason.
Whether it's we had a bad debt paid and say, let's go and, you know, go to, for a breakfast or or whatever, or he's a movie about, you know, it's something like that, but it's been He had we haven't been able to do that and so it is lacking and so that the team team Vibe the team energy does suffer and then and then you put fatigue for us as well and then that puts more 40 you know gives you more fatigues.
You trying harder to keep it going so exactly.You got all those overlays but you know if I just unpacked what you said what's really important is just how one individual can influence the mood and the just the feeling that others have from a Perspective and just a Vibe at work and so there's that knock-on effect of how one person's feeling can influence.
However, the group however, big the team is whether it's only another three people or another 20 people.And so that influence is is really strong and I think that's a really important part that can either bring out a team down or it can lift them up.And I think your other point is a really good one as well of that celebration as a team and it Have to be for any particular reason.
It's just getting together and that acknowledgement is a team.And yes, during covid we haven't been able to do it in the same way and people have had virtual parties and virtual dinners.And I think people are sick of virtuals of everything.But it is about that recognition of how the individual influences, our team and vice versa, and how critical that party is.
And I've heard some really good things during covid where Vic practices have really brought in quite a lot around debriefing.So debriefing, you know, just a quick catch up at the end of the day or a quick catch up in the morning or once a week of where they just saying, okay.
And pardon the French, but they go, what's been the shit and what's been the gems?And so that's what they've called it the SMGs.And so, you know, like the g&ts.And so they've made it.That that's put out there.What hasn't worked well with?Wait and let's put it out there.
What's really something we could celebrate and so people have been able to put on the table not so much the Practical things like from a clinical perspective.But more they can then speak about how that have reacted to it.
So from an emotional perspective, I just welcome your thoughts on that as a strategy.Yeah, I refer to it as a purge and I think the Huddle's Huddle's in the morning We sort of been directly do that when I look at the scheduling.So a huddle in the morning, I thinks good to work out potential problems during the day.
I mean, we don't do it daily but we definitely do it on a case-by-case basis and I really do try and take time and it's funny most one night during the week.I'm you know stay back with because I'm the, you know, first to arrive usually in the last to leave like most bosses but there's always one vet that's on call.
And so that night I do To have a one-on-one with them and try and extract a bit of.Well anything that they want to talk about out of them, we do have weekly meetings, every Friday morning for the team, we have an agenda that you can put anything on.So if it is something that's annoying you or, you know, one of your exes and also I try to always bring one of the geez, but I think 100% that that Purge or that debrief is really important and I think that getting it off your chest, and that's what I try and do with them every day, especially with cases, I would like to think that my guys don't go.
Home and ruminate about cases.I really try hard to nail that and give them comfort in decisions, or give them strategies in how we're going to deal with it.If they're not happy with how something went or change it, or make it better or hey, and that's a strategy in itself.
You know, that whole thing of let's talk about it during the day rather than the individual vet going home, might be a vet nurse going home and just doing their own thinking about it, but there's a discussion.That it so before they get in the car and head home, they've already got if you like a perspective on it, that's just not their own perspective.
There's been some contextualizing that's happened, either from yourself or from another colleague, and I think that's a really critical strategy because sometimes we're out that our brains, our greatest asset and can be our greatest enemy.And so when we get on a roll with rumination, sometimes it can take us down some pretty dark.
Balls.And so if we've actually got a different perspective before we go home, then we've already started to shape some of that context.And we've got another voice coming in rather than just trying to qualify it on our own.
Yes.Stop the snowball.Yeah, exactly.You made a comment at night time you clear your head before you go to sleep?How do you do that?I try and reason with myself, as I said at the start II, try Be very, you know, it's always the way you can be very good at giving someone else advice, but what comes to yourself, you know, not always that diligent, but I really try and have a Stern talking to myself if I am worried about something and say, you know, and I do ask simple questions.
Is it something I can control?What can I do to make it better?If you can?Do that.And be honest with yourself because most of the time there is a you can even if you just make a decision that, okay, I'm going to get up and I'm going to, I'm going to do this tomorrow.I'm going to contact this card if you make a strategy.
So that, you know, when you wake up you I think you if you're content that, you know what you're going to do when you wake up, I think it's easy to go to bed, but I think such a thing that you've said in there to really important is that you plan.And so what you're doing is that, whether it's before you go to sleep, or it's You about the following morning, that's what's the plan.
So what people are left with, in hitting the pillow, is it's not like this is all jumbled.And what am I going to do?You've got a direction, you got some goals, you've got some actions.And I think for people when they ruminate the gets boggy, because people feel like they're just going round in circles.
And so part of a plan and or part of an option plan, It's people out of the weeds or get them out of the, be the thickness of the forest and actually gives them some Direction.So in finishing up Kurt, I'd like to ask you people who are listening to this and who rumination has worn them down and has been something that has been part of a pattern for some people, for many, many years.
What would your first step be for them as a strategy to get?Out of that endless loop.I'll go to saying that I'll say with the staff is your frog first and so when you go to a restaurant and there's frog on the menu that no one's going to order that while not anyway, but I think that if you have a series of problems or rumination topics, get running around in your brain, get rid of the one that's that you don't want to deal with and get rid of that one first.
And it's and and I've had this, I can absolutely test it to see if I've got something to do that.I really don't want to do and I don't do it first thing in the morning and I sit on it all day.I do ruminate about that all day long and it does it's just another thing affecting me whether it's mentally, physically, emotionally, whatever.
But it definitely does.If you just get rid of that straight away, you have a much more productive.You have a much clearer head and you have a much more positive psyche about the day, so about eating a frog first and it's something I really believe in.And my staff, I can say to me, you know, makes like they can see, I'm procrastinating on doing something, I go eat your frog, boss, manage your frog, you know.
It's just, you just, they just leave me alone and not to with the men.They got a key for you haven't liked it.Well, I've ever had and like you said, just pick one, you know, the direction you need to go to get out of it and doesn't matter if it's the right decision.
But as long as you make a decision to move away from where you are that snowball that channel that whatever you want to call it, that you're in that cycle, that Vortex, I think you just got to jump out of it.It doesn't matter how far out of it you This is long as you're out of it a little bit and then you can raise this and move on and make more decisions.
To do me.A feel like this, two overarching categories of topics of Aruba Nation number one and probably the most common is, I'm an idiot.I'm an idiot, I stuff that up.I shouldn't have said that.I should have seen this.I shouldn't have missed that on the diagnosis.
I'm an idiot.And the second category that I could sometimes ruminator, even more as you need it.I had an argument with that person that client who said that, and you have this stupid arguments in your head.A veteran of the discussion that happened five days ago but yet you still arguing, you still saying yeah but you which those I'm almost get me more.
I can't maybe it's my personality type that I don't like conflict and when there is conflict it's like I keep reliving it and keep redoing.And again, I think those two levels you've been really good to differentiate because the first one is about how we see ourselves and our own self-perception and that's where the self-flagellation and the rumination comes in your urine.
Idiot, why did you do that?It's a stupid mistake that other doctor and that's really the perfectionism.And the, if you like bordering on the neuroticism Enos, and the second is very much whether you like conflict or not, it's where there's been an interaction that's unfinished or it's finished in our a way that is not satisfactory to you.
So the brain wants to go back there and tidy it up because as human beings we like things neat we like things were Resolved.And when it's left with lots of mess or left with little pieces hanging, the brain goes, I'm going to go back and I'm going to replay it and replant until I can tidy it up.
And, you know, you become the angry customer, you become the vet or the or the, you know, staff at in customer service and you just rehash the entire thing and at some level we need to put it to bed and we'll never be able to Somebody will say, well, I need to go and contact that customer or others need to just say was a bad experience if I ever get someone like this.
Again this is how I'm going to do it.This is how I'm going to deal with it.Wonder if that's why it is.We more prone to ruminating about this sort of interactions because these are people who are transient in our lives.In many cases, it's a once-off interaction and short of water and stalking them and confronting them about this thing that's that's in their head.
Probably long gone.They were long forgotten about it and yet we are obsessing about it.The other scenario, and this is ridiculous, but I'm sure I'm not the only one but that brings this on for me is Social Media stuff.When I see stuff on social media, That makes me angry, hissing disagreeing with a complete stranger.
He doesn't even know that I'm reading his thing or is comment or something.And three days later, I'm still bugging with this imaginary person at some stupid fucking thing.I experienced that personally, a lot during covid, a lot of the cover discussions, which we've just we've mentioned before was obviously a trigger for me, because of my, my personal and family experience with it, and I'd read stuff on social media, that would trigger me so much to the Whiteman.
And there's a guy I I did know that I actually messaged him as you can.I talk to you.I need because I had to talk about it because I was arguing with him in my head for weeks on it.Yeah.And as you say, you know, particularly in covid-19, social media boarded on a real intrusion and an invasion in people's lives because there was so, it was flooded.
And so, if you like, there was what we call from a psychological perspective, a real transference, then of people's views.You into our Lounge room or into our brain, or into our lives.And when you didn't agree with it, it was like, I can't get these bastards out of my head, Jackie, Jackie.
And it can be a throwaway comment.I know one of our listeners wants of a friend of mine, made a comment that somebody at a conference said, something alluded to something, but they took it as a, as a slight and she said, because she said, can we talk about rumination on the podcast because how does she deal with it?
Because she was just Replaying this comment was insulting me.Was it aimed at me?Was it?And in those scenarios where you can't go back to get closure on the conversation?I again, what is the, what are the steps?How do you break that cycle?Or I think you said in the discussion was good, the circuit breaker, what's the circuit breaker for that process?
And I think, let's just first look, can I just unpack it?A little and just go back to when we look at the veterinary sector.I think we need to say, okay, well, who's at risk here?And I think we need to be quite real here and say those who are attracted to the veterinary sector are perfectionist themselves and so therefore they're going to be and it's healthy still but it's going to be something that they will do automatically is ruminate.
So let's let's put it on the table and say that's a given so we're not here to change and say don't ruminate what we are here to say.Is you will ruminate But let's cap it otherwise it takes over you rather than it being a healthy process.
And I think the other things we need to say is that people are going to be triggered.Particularly if they're stressed or exhausted, it makes us more vulnerable to rumination because we are more critical of what we have just done and therefore that leads us into a much deeper evaluation or You weixin of what we've said or what we have actually just performed surgery or with a customer.
So, so why is that drawer under that it's worse when you are tired or stressed?Yeah, because what's happened, there is from a hormone perspective and just from if you like our Clarity around our decisiveness and our using, our rationality get It's into a bit of a fog.
Big like what people's talk about when they are talking about covid?That is something that people experience when they're, you know, excessively tired and exhausted or really stressed about something.They feel like they're operating in concrete or in a fog and so therefore that leaves as much more prone to rumination because the brain finds it easier to rehash rather than Say, I'm going to make a clear decision here, and this is what I'm going to do about it, to bring it to a close or to improve it for down the track.
And so, you know, like I don't know if you've ever noticed yourself, you know, when you're tired, take on more stubborn, take on your neck.You don't say no often enough.You go.Yeah.All right, yeah, all right, yeah.All right, it's the worst thing you can be doing but it's easier just to say yes.
Then it is to say no.When you're exhausted and that It's what happens with rumination that.It's it.We are very much more vulnerable.When we are fatigued or exhausted and then rumination just becomes if you'd like a pattern of a cycle that just keeps like reoccurring during that tiredness.
Okay, so I think it's really important to say okay well what can we do?Because I think that's the real thing and you'll hear that from what Kurt says in that It is a back, really looking at.Okay, what's in my control and what's outside my control?
Because often the rumination is focused on things that we can't control.Like it example, you gave the guy was in the social media, you know, in the end you have to contact him, it's the customer that's gone off and you're still ruminating it five days later and he or she's probably probably forgotten about it after 2 seconds.
Yeah.And so it's really looking at what is it there of what we can control and can't and I think the other it in, it ties back to what I was just saying.It's our own self belief, our self perception, that the expectations we have on our self because there is a correlation and it's well, documented research wise, the correlation between if you've got really good.
So Confidence.And you believe in yourself, then rumination will be well controlled because if you don't have a good self expectation and self-esteem, you will doubt yourself all the time and rumination feeds on that is that because your subconscious or your brain is still trying to figure out how to do things.
And so that the process of we're evaluating invariably is going to be more to evaluate what I do and then it's much easier to slip from Revelation into rumination.Yeah, exactly.That's right.And it's really, I really encourage people to just check in on their self talk because when it really dives into that really harsh or I've called harsh Judgment of yourself, it really then becomes a feed to the rumination.
So it just really accentuate It.And so that's what we want to do.If you like to knock off and make sure that doesn't become a self-fulfilling prophecy.You know and I know of a lot of perfectionist who say to me and it's fascinating when they say we I want to jump in first and be critical of myself before any other faster and it fell off me.
So they do it.They said they say it's quite interesting.They say I'm going to be the harshest critic because no matter what anyone else says is ever going to be bad or is ever going to be worse.And so, so it's a really interesting Paradigm that they put themselves in.
It's like, get in first, get in with the boots and all really do the worst possible.Number on yourself.There's no matter what anyone else says it's never going to be as bad.So what do you advise to somebody like that?How do you how do you address it or prevent that from?
How do you treat perfectionism?Go ahead and perform Gordon said He's coming to us, we don't treat Perfection, its we employ them a very good point to mention some wonderful.
But on a serious note, I think it is about saying and it's acknowledging.That's what Perfection is do and it's not trying to turn that off, but what it is just saying, it's been like what you said a moment ago it's about acknowledging.
I do that, I do that because it's my safety net.It's the way in which I make.Sure, of part of gone over the option, that's going to have the worst possible scenario and nothing's going to be as bad.And so, as long as you acknowledge that, that's why you're doing it and then you're only doing it.
So, once or twice and that's fine, but when it repeats itself, that that's when it has a very negative consequence on our, our mental emotional and physical well-being, The can I make a comment about the strategy of mine that I've learnt recently because you try to, you can't fix your head with your head.
You can you can because you even in your recognizer to go g, ruminating about the stupid thing, fix it fix.But I've got to fix myself and a way for me to externalise it.A little bit is to actually write these things down, but write them in a question for me.
So, because so, you talk about, so what can I control?Just thinking about what can I control still?Doesn't quite do it for me.So I literally have to write down.What can I control the situation?Answer it.Yes, or no.What can you do about it if you can control?
What, what are my actions going to be?What's my plan?Basically?If I can't control about it, then I can evaluate and say, okay?And my question is, will normally be something along the lines of what were your intentions?So it helped me to have a perspective on when I did this thing that I'm now so grateful.
But what were my intentions when I did?Was I trying to be malicious was I trying to screw somebody over was I trying to kill my patient?Know I wasn't that was acting.Within my abilities on the day with what I had maybe wasn't on top of my game.Yes, I should have done that a tip on a better day.
I would have picked it up but I didn't intend to cause any harm and then my last question is always okay.What can you learn from this?Yes, and that helps me a hell of a lot.Again, I like that.We did you use the circuit breaker several let's get this out of my head and get it onto a piece of paper and often that is enough to say.
Okay now we've addressed it, let's move on.It's Yeah.And I think that's a really good way and you can even take what you've done here.It and break it down even further because if you say, well can I control this?Well, it's the important to say, what is the it here?
You know, like if it's a bad argument with a customer or what is the it that I can control?I can't control what the customer says, I can control, what I've said to the customer and also how I've reacted to that.
Customer.And so it's important.When you write it down that people break down the event or the situation, and so they can actually see the small components of it as well.Otherwise, if it stays as a big metamorphosis of just, you know, a shitty situation.
It's been hard for people to say, okay, well, what parts of that?Can I influence?That's excellent.I guess the other thing is just in line with some practical Another one that I've heard that the victory sector use.
A lot of is What's called the catastrophizing because I'm pretty good at catastrophizing dance.Like they go pretty quickly to that worst thing that can happen but what we what we often train, the veterinary sector to do is they can quickly go to okay.
What could happen in this situation and therefore, what is it that I see as though?The worst possible event.And then what we say to them is, okay, just for a moment, just stop and say right now if it was a phone call coming in, what would be the worst thing that you would hate to hear in your life?
Coming through a phone call?And for most people, they talk about some family member or Loved one overseas or whatever that they've had an accident or they may have been killed and all of a sudden we say.
So now put that listening to that that conversation that telephone call just against what you've said about the worst thing of that particular event and all of a sudden, the catastrophizing really aligns itself in Life.
It brings it back into a comparison of what's life all about.Again, it brings back reality back in in that Split Second when people are feeling like they want to vomit, they're overwhelmed by the event that has caused them to go.
Well, beyond ruminating and their catastrophizing, that's really nice.That's really practical to.I like that a lot Rhonda.I have a few more comments.The one thing I'll Again, from seeing it in others and doing it.
Myself is an adult.It's a comet.That's a question.I don't know.Maybe you can, you can comment on it.The right.I can control this by doing this in this in this.So let's take it to the clinical scenario.All right, I something I made a mistake.
It clinical mistake, what can I do about it?Alright, I can learn, I can get better and not do it but then that can become a very obsessive thing to go.I always can do more.You know, if I worked harder than I could have prevented this.So I'm going to work harder if I studied more if I'm going to and it can really live, that's a one-way ticket to burn out to go this.
All these things that I've created we can control and especially not create.There's always more that you should know, is always more that you must skills that you should learn, and it could become a real burden to live like that ago.I need to fix all these things.I have no control limit.So, I don't know.
What can you say to that?Is it Yeah, and it's a good point because when you start saying that we can all improve and there's really no limit to that Improvement.And I think what I say to people, and what I encourage and invite people to do is, when you are learning, just be very specific.
What's the one thing?Very small.But what's the one thing that I want to do differently, and it has to be small that you can do the next time round and that's your achievement.So rather than saying, You know, I'm going to be the best of, or, you know, I've done this.
Now, I've got to do this now, I've got to do this now, I've got to do this and I'm not forever.You know, that's another rumination because you're self-flagellating and saying, hey, yeah, cos you, but you've done better but now you can do even live.Yeah.So what I say to people is I invite you to say what's the, what's a small thing you want to change the next time you have an altercation with a Or you have an angry customer or that something's gone amiss with a euthanasia.
Or something's happened with a particular surgery or conversation with the customer service team backfired.So what's the one thing that you want to do differently and measure it, it has to be measurable.
I want to see that when I go to Jane and customer service and I say to her.So, how are you this morning?Jane.That I actually listened to her, I make eye contact and I listen to what she's saying rather than just racing off down the hallway, ready to start surgery so it has to be that measurable around.
What's the change?You're going to make?And that's your achievement.I really like that.It's a it's a question of actionable steps.It's somewhere between I'll never be good enough.So I may as well not dry versus I need to be perfect.
Yeah.And you Can go the middle way and say I'd need to be just a little bit better.Yeah, exactly.And I also encourage people to listen to the feedback they get from others because often is perfectionist.
So we are very dismissive of positive feedback and we go.Are they just being nice?Oh yeah that's gonna - you know she or he's going to say that and we're very dismissive but I really encourage you to listen to It because it happens.
Daily people do give a lot of feedback in just a commentary and narrative as a racing between patients and racing between appointments, and it's it is important to pick that up and and to receive it well rather than batting it away or dismissive of it.
And as I say, perfectionists are really prone to to wiping away. - Confluence, marvelous, what are we done?Are we done?Ruminating about rumination.I think we are.That was magnificent, and I think it'd be really useful topic.
It's obviously all struggle with it and thank you so much for your time and it again.How goal here at the big dog had conversation like the one you just listen to, it will give you inspiration and fresh ideas and how to create a thriving and happy career and life as a bit.
You'll know by now that our focus is on the life skills that we need to navigate this challenging and rewarding profession about.But there's something that I've realized over the last few years of exploring ways to increase enjoyment of the job that is that the Vets who are confident in their skills and knowledge are, Whole more satisfied with their careers, which makes sense.
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Rhonda Andrews