April 11, 2022

#66: Beyond the dip: a career waiting on the horizon. With Dr Aaron Forsayeth

#66: Beyond the dip: a career waiting on the horizon. With Dr Aaron Forsayeth
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Season 1

How much do you dislike doing dentals? If you’re like most vets I’m guessing that the answer to that question is - “I dislike it rather a lot.” 

But then there’s that small minority of vets who just love teeth. Our guest for this episode, as you’ll hear, was NOT one of them, and yet these days that is exactly what he does all day, every day. And he loves it. 

Dr Aaron Forsayeth has been working in full-time dental referral practice since 2006, after starting his vet career with a decade in mixed and small animal practice. He is highly involved in the dentistry world in Australia, including a stint as the president of the Australian Veterinary Dental Society and a current role as Policy Councillor for the AVDS, the dentistry branch of the Australian Veterinary Association. 

Our conversation with Aaron covers, as you'd expect, a career in dentistry: why you’d want to do it, what’s good about it, what’s not so great, and pathways to becoming a veterinary dentist, but we go way beyond that. Aaron talks about his decision not to specialise, despite an obvious passion for what he does. We talk about that very common phenomenon of the 2-5 year ‘dip’ - when many vets find themselves disillusioned with their careers and possibly looking for an exit strategy, and how getting really good at something might be what you're looking for. But first we kick off a detour on fashion...

If you're feeling inspired to lift your dentistry game after listening to this then check out Aaron's dentistry videos. 

Go to thevetvault.com for show notes and to check out our guests’ favourite books, podcasts and everything else we talk about in the show.

If you want to lift your clinical game, go to vvn.supercast.com for a free 2-week trial of our short and sharp high-value clinical podcasts.

We love to hear from you. If you have a question for us or you’d like to give us some feedback please get in touch via email at thevetvaultpodcast@gmail.com, or just catch up with us on Instagram.

And if you like what you hear then please share the love by clicking on the share button wherever you’re listening and sending a link to someone who you know will enjoy listening.

 

 

 

We've lost a cohort out of a profession and unless we do something we're going to keep losing it.I need Burton's dress.I'm drew a loophole and this is the vid felt How much do you dislike doing dentals?
If you like most of it, I'm guessing that the answer to that question is, I dislike it but rather a lot, I even know some vets who have started a career in emergency practice and then started a podcast for vets not to a small degree to avoid having to ever do another date though.
But then there's that small minority of AIDS who just love teeth.I guess for this episode, as you'll hear was not one of them and These days that is exactly what he does all day every day and he loves it.
Talk to Aaron.Forsythe has been working in full-time Dental, referral practice since 2006.After starting his weight, create with a decade in mixed and small animal practice, he's highly involved in the Dentistry World in Australia, including a stint as the president of the Australian Veterinary Dental society and a current role as policy counselor for the avds, that's a lot of teeth for someone who used to not like day.
Industry.A conversation with Aaron covers.Obviously a career in the industry, mainly?Why you'd want to do it?What's good about it?What's not so great, and Pathways to becoming a dentist, but we go way beyond that.Aaron talks about his decision, not to specialize, despite an obvious passion for what he does.
We talk about that very common phenomenon of the to 25-year dip in your veteran career.When many of its find themselves disillusioned, with their careers and possibly looking for an exit strategy and how Getting really good at something.Maybe that golden ticket that you looking for?
But first, we kick off with pink hair, dr.Aaron Forsythe.Oh, before you go, we've also had a turnover on the clinical podcast series to talk us through.What's new in the industry plus a whole bunch of tips on how to make your data lles much less frustrating.
If you haven't checked out our clinical podcasts yet, go check it out for free for two weeks.At VV n dot, super cars.com that's vvn for vet.V Network for our weekly, small animal medicine surgery and emergency and critical care podcasts.
Plus the lovely show notes that go with them, which to be honest have replaced most of my textbooks in Googling, it work, sign up to help you battle that 3 to 5-year dip, or even the 20th.Dip with some fresh inspiration and knowledge from a world-class kissed because as you live from Aaron, it's much more fun when you know what you're doing.
Okay, back to Erin.Dr. Aaron Force, saith it, saith God, welcome to this, very first was safe.Welcome back to the red fault.Thanks man.Thank you for having me again, Friday morning.So that it's becoming.Yeah.
Wow, we can make this a thing.Yeah, I like it.Can I just quickly jump in and comment about your hair?Listen, is God's the can't see what I'm looking at but I've got bread.Is it pink allowed leading?All right.It's really it's fighting a bit admired, it was red.Yeah.
We actually we're talking about this other day.I think maybe other people maybe men this age in their life by fast car, or get a woman on the side or something like that.I just change color my hair.It's about as crazy as I can get, I think so, when did you start doing that?
Because I've seen other photos of you with blue in the past.And yeah, I've done for a while.I think I've done it now.Since might be spree coming to three years now, I haven't had that for colored hair and is quite frequent to eye with a Shorter.Here I go and see my hairdresser.
Every six to eight weeks and it changes every time I don't think we have had the same color twice, but it's never been back to back.Oh, hey, I really like it did.You find is becomes relevant for vetting.I suppose, is it always a fun reaction or do you sometimes get resistance from clients to make because you mean you're at the professionals?
You have to look professional if I did.Effects interactions with clients at all.Not nothing that.Wait yes I guess I've noticed the positive interactions that it's added started.I have not come across either been ignorant to it or ignored it.
I've not come across a negative reaction, you'll remember value is actually quite a few years ago when I did it.For one peer, I actually did do another Carla and I remember a client came in the front and went out to get them out of the waiting room.And as we brought her in and she came into the room and she said to be set up.
I thought you guys would be all stuffy and it would be like tired, but I know that's not going to be the case as she points.Him out here.Yeah, she was good climb and we had a good rapport, but I do think it's interesting.I think things like that.
It's colored enough that it makes people feel like they need to comment because I guess I never hung his plane.He is playing here, but it's not probably not a day goes by without someone saying, something about it.And the most comments I've received The caller was, it was bright neon green so I like a tennis ball good and that really, really induce a lot of comment.
I thought it was quite interesting and so that discussion about professionalism.Yeah.It's a good discussion and there's a couple of things I guess for me over the last couple years that I've changed up a bit one was the hair and the other one weird thing to say but I moved to wearing scrubs.
So scrubs have been something that I think a professional.She has taken on a liar.Yeah.Over the last five years.Leak.Probably, ten now.And I was really stuck in this idea.That, no, I had to wear pants.I had to wear a shirt and that's what you all, because you're a professional.
Yeah.You'd our vet school, people.Laugh and I say this, but back in South Africa from the male students, which is ridiculous we had to wear College shirts to class or you get kicked out of class.Now, these shirts allowed in class, Yeah.
Okay, we didn't have that.So in class it was I think it was pretty much allowed to wear what you wanna wear.When were in clinic, we had to Wear Ties.Well yeah, I remember in 4th year, coming into the clinical use in my degree in fourth and fifth year.I remember as a student going out to those probably Big W or the cheapest place, could go to and buying these cheek ties and cheap Shadows because it was coming up that I have to yeah in the clinic.
Yeah.And I carry that for a very long time and it was actually I think there was a study came out came out of States, couple years ago.I'm looking at clients attitudes towards their professionals that they work with and their attire.
And so Americans, we haven't really taken on here for the American clients.They really like, I think they very professional.If they're I'm clinicians wear lab coats.Yeah, we haven't really taken that on here, but but next was scrubbers and they really did feel that Scrubs were actually quite professional, right?
It's okay right.Yes.Prize me.So I think that gave me a sort of permission to go to Scrubs and I've loved them ever, since has there?Always.Yes.Like Peter allowed to wear pajamas all day?It's amazing.Hundred percent percentage arm is all that it's cracked now.
It's interesting the because some workplaces will have rules around clothing or piercings and things like that and I've never again, I'm conservative, I was raised and educated in their environment.
Don't.But I do Wonder like, for you.It sounds like it's a very positive thing to have something a little bit different but is that also because when I walk into your office, I know I'm coming to see a high-level professional with a lot of experience.So I know by default that, you know, your shed, so then your hair color or your hairstyle.
Yeah, treatment makes makes no difference.Where is, if I'm, if you were to put it this way, you think it would have made a difference.If you were a two-year-old, a two-year-old Out Bait, trying to impress clients, and then you had bright pink hair, I think it could I think if you can't back it up.
So that's that's unfair that's starting as if you're not doing the right thing and that's not what not right way to put it.If, if the manor you come across in, doesn't back it up then?Yeah, I think it could be an issue and I think I think it could be Because we we have enough time.
So in referral settings, we have enough time to really sit down with clients.So we had a good half hour with a client, they don't have enough time to my hair, some kind of relationship there are then I think then these superficial things get cast aside we're able to sort of break through that whereas I think if I was in a shorter period didn't get to make.
Have that kind of rapport with clients.I think it I don't think would be an issue but I I can guarantee that if there was a problem and they would be going on that guy with the funny hair.Yeah.I've always feel like it Bowman's, do it but then also don't make your life harder than it needs to be if you already have challenges of style look I had a conversation this morning with one of our new grads and we were talking about a client that gave her a hard time and I said oh that's really was really nice to me and then I went here realistically.
I'm a middle-aged man with graying hear people kind of assume that there's a level of authority and they not give me shit.Whereas she's young 20 yard and they're much more likely to and it's unfortunate it's not right, it's stupid but it is people have biases and know you correctly.
It isn't right?And no I've been through that personally as well.And I I've been lucky enough to have a young looking face.I now tell people it's because I continue to slowly put White.It just fills out the wrinkles, but I remember early on, in my career and I was I was in my late 30s and I was doing Dentistry referral but it was I think was a day when my original partner.
Gary Wilson wasn't with me in tears me by myself.I mean with a client I would had been discussing with them.The workup of their dogs are on mass and we were talking when playing you go to CT and looking at how we would buy up scent?Eventually how we would treat, which would have been within it, an active me of some sort.
And then at the end of it, she said, when am I going to see the vet and she she thought I was a nurse that you have, you have crazy Heritage abnormal here.But no, this was not my hair but I was just I was just, I was certainly younger.So I think it was age thing.That was with that and you're right, we are business.
Currently we've got an intern this year and my ago in San is I think he's in his Fifties.And he's a big guy.He's six foot, five and mature man.And whenever any of us go in the room with him clients, always look to him for advice.
It's there was a and they're not that Mike doesn't know his stuff.Like Mike's been working at a murder.I've been doing their Dentistry for actually quite a number of years.Yeah.So he knows what he's doing.Those membership is excellent.Yeah.But yeah, they, they certainly always look to an older person.
Yeah, yeah.Look it is that they are are biases that we can't help.What other people think we can give them guidance has a.Guess it's a tribe but they do have they come in with their own thoughts.And another thing that tying into all this as well, which goes the opposite way.So obviously I'm really happy to dye my hair or do whatever.
The case.I'm not ready to do, whatever I have Bible.So not to I think six, seven years ago I started getting.I started got my first tattoo and I've got a few tattoos now but still This point.I'm not ready to tell you my forearms now as much as I think, the Australian Society is not too bad with tattoos these days.
I don't want to do something that potentially upsets clientele even though I could see they're going on, you shouldn't make this biased comment about me.You've got don't know anything, tattoos.Don't make me a bad person.I don't want to do it because a I can't get rid of them but but I just have to accept that people do have other.
Yeah.And even if it's not, it's an outspoken or even if they're not aware that they have an opinion, it's often.There's subconscious biases where you might ask a person.I have to.It's did your was your trust different in Aaron because he has tattoos on his forearms and oh no, I like tattoos.
But maybe in the back of your head there was a little bit of a maybe though they are and there's maybe a few there and So, I would hate to think that potentially.There are patients that we didn't end up saying, including a treatment with, because they didn't just feel that trust, will that bond with us with me, because of that.
Yeah, it would be strange thing.It's clearly Teddy's.Just a bit of income skin.But now people, we have to, I think be aware of all these other attitudes in society from our clients, they all come from a different position and a different life experience.
Can't be the same as yours.And yeah if we're not aware of that for sure.Yeah hopefully little detail that I didn't expect that but that's nice conversation.Speaking of decisions, bad decisions, bad decisions.Lead to good stories.Do you agree with that?
Or have you got examples that fit with that?I have exams that fit with it?I don't know if I agree with it overall.I think they, they absolutely can.And sometimes they're the best stories ever.Yeah.But sometimes they're the only the best.Stories in retrospect time time makes them a better story.
But yeah.So you did give me the heads up on this phone and I have been thinking about.I do have a story that I tell to people about one of one of my experiences that not it doesn't quite fit bad decisions.Make a good story.But sort of that mistakes can lead, I guess it's the same kind of thing, but mistakes can lead to a good story.
I think this story is it's a I think it's A really good lesson.That's why I tell her.So is it wasn't too long ago is actually a about 34 years ago.I had a couple of cats from one client that were that we're in for a dental work and by the way that it all worked out that day, I didn't get to start the cats until in the afternoon.
They weren't complex cases, by any means, they would just basically scar polish, maybe a tooth out here and there.Well, there must have been a smooth out for the first cap because it The mandibular canine and when I took it out, I broke the jewel.So that's nasty.
Now, it's not the only one I've done.I've actually that was one of two I've ever done in my career.So does happen, you can be as careful as you like, but sometimes things go wrong.So I had to bring up the client.So we've finished that can and I rang her up and it was about 6:00 p.m. and I rang her up and I have to let her know two things.
One is Cap, your first cats done.But we haven't started the second cat yet and I appreciate it 6 p.m. at night, but we'll get it done.And we'll get them home this evening.Sometime plus, also, I broke broke his jaw.So explain what happened and how we would go with treatment and it is digital go very well.
At least you'll find a few weeks and she was, she was okay with that.So, we start on the second cat.And it went well, I didn't like it so I could discuss wavy to take.That would have Gavin would be tossed.
No, I don't want potentially worse.Like I said, nothing went wrong with the procedure, but as we were recovering, the cat, we've cast for me, I like to use uncuff tubes, and I don't tie in with a fabric or a fixed eye.I use rubber bands, so let's get a little bit of moving because we do move their head a little bit and they're just a nice.
Size.Wendy's cat was recovering.The the rubber band had come loose and we none of us had noticed except our nurse recovering a cat.She turned around just to the right time to see the cats swallowing and oh yeah.
So it was Panic Station.So if you grab the cat, is I hadn't inhaled it.So there's no issue there but it has followed this being rather bad about Jeepers Creepers.So, so this was now at like 7:00 7:30, Early in the evening.He's all of the special staff and moved out in the 80s staff at all moved into the night.
So we were panicked, we ran out and grabbed an emergency staff member, and we organized.And we got a scope going.So we got to scho going within about 30, 40 minutes when there's cap.That's still sleeping is still under knocked out.Yeah.Yeah dude.Yeah.We're these tires and got a scope this cat and there's nothing in his stomach.
There's empty.Totally empty.Where has it?They took it through their ideology and it was halfway down the intestines already, seriously?No, look at anyway.So I actually had before I went into your study guide, I had to bring the clock so I'd run the client.
Well, I don't know that the first cap protein that you all was waking up really well.And then we'd finish the second cat but it is swallowed rubber band and yeah.So, Talk to us through and said, I'll what we were going to play.You do, just go, but and then I during her again after Scopes a look, Carter fine.
Okay, retrieve it.What we'll do is come down.We'll send the first cat home and I'm going to keep second cat among that I'll come in in the morning, probably 6:30, 7:00 and I'll re radiograph the cat and we'll see where it's going and hopefully it'll move that rubber band.
So a discharge the other cat at 11:30 that night and the next morning got in there.There aren't being was sitting in the: so I then I had that CAT discharged and now I'll talk to the client every day then for two days but much more than that.
But that took two days and then it passed in the feces.Yeah.And it all worked out.Okay, cost.And I think the reason I tell that story is I think it's about I think it's a high likes communication and and this is outside the veterinary profession.
Communication is key to everything we do and I think think if we manage, Measure X people's expectations with good communication.Then things will tend to be.Okay.So that really had the, but even just one of her cats had the potential to be a complete disaster.
Let alone two.And even the minor thing that these cats went home late at night, if nothing was wrong with him.Again that has a date and she are probably really.Oh, yeah, for sure.Absolutely, there was a whole series of events that really went wrong in this situation but in the end the client was happy the procedures that the cats needed to be done.
We're done.Yeah.And she was all good about it.The asterisks on that is the client was a pediatrician, a pediatric, and nice statistics.So that better a whiz.Well, it probably will empathy with you.
Yeah, yeah.And we thought look, you know what a bad day for us is not a bad lot of bad day for you.Yeah.So yeah, yeah, maybe maybe was a bit more smooth over because yeah, you're right.That empathy and understanding of what what it takes to do these things and that not everything does Roxy but so does.
Just putting myself in your shoes making.Those phone calls all those multiple phone calls the last one you did start with.Before I give you an update, I just need you to know, I'm not actually a blundering idiot, I am ex think professional but we, we have another problem.
Absolutely, absolutely.It was as crazy and then I didn't think about talking about this when I was had your question, but I guess now I reflect on One of the most awful fire call I've ever made and some of us hopefully none of us but it's not.
None of us live from that.We won't have to do more than any more than zero would be good but In Our Lifetime we have an Unexpected death.Yeah and I retire I reflect back on that.And that occurred for me that was I was unlucky enough that have occurred probably two years out and that was with a cats pee on a weekend.
We've worked basically Saturday's will work like any other day of the week.Except we had less staff and so we're rushing around this cat again on reflection.It would have would have locked up its respiratory system included in recovery that's why it died and yeah making that phone call.
It was devastating.You don't have any worse feeling in your life but again, I didn't I didn't really know it at the time, but I think with my personality, I'm quite a fun and honest person.Person and being upfront and honest with the client straight away again, it went as smoothly as you could ever hope for something like that, but at that time, I don't think my communication skills were particularly amazing.
I mean amazing now, but they're so very adequate now.Yeah.But early on, in my career I think my communication wasn't good but it worked in a time that could again, could have been a complete disaster.By being upfront, honest and giving explanations to people's right away rather leaving these blank spaces for them to fill it in, I think helped a lot.
I read a study about clinical area and human medicine and that was one of the key findings wise honesty always wins.There's this temptation to try and smooth things over a little bit.And yeah, I think here are there to just save the situation but yeah, yeah, yeah.
Don't want you write a little white lie, just to smooth it over or just pasted over a little.You don't want to do question down that road.So you sort of paste that.Oh yeah.I'm always outside by actually going back to that cat that I broke joram.I see quite a few cases coming through when there is concern has been raised by clients and referring veterinarians that they have real concerns about jaw fracture during extraction and it absolutely real clearly and my Great talk to them.
It's not to go, oh, look how good I am, I've belong on perfect at it.I tell people straight away, say no, two cats, and one dog.So far in 25 years and it will probably be more by the time I finished.Yeah, I don't plan to do it.We always are very, very careful, but it's real.
Yeah, yeah.Yeah, I think if you take, uh, pretend nothing happens to you, well, you're probably lying again.I don't know.I don't know if that gives people confidence.I like to think it.Does I liked, I love it.I love hearing people at the top of their game and met or talked about their mistakes, and it's just, it's not, it's there is no Schmutz the word schadenfreude is.
It's no, I don't take pleasure in it but it's just just to know that.Yeah, it happens to the best of us.And I think it's, I think it's really important for people to be more open about this stuff UPS, because absolutely happens.But it's mistakes, it's human nature.I love it.When rub, you know, Rob Webster.
It's finally about something else and he started straight away.I saying, wow, I nearly stuffed up at GTV this morning and it's so nice with you.Here to go.Wow!This guy's a specialist in the ACC and he's quite happy to tell me that is stuffed up with this thing.Absolutely.
Yeah, we're all real right now.It gave you a fit if you hear someone say it's never happened to them.They probably not really telling you the whole truth.Yeah and it is way better for you to laugh my mistakes than someone else then experience them yourselves.Yeah yeah feels like that mistakes are very useful teaching tool.
Yeah.We just have to hope for us less disastrous outcomes as possible.But yeah we've all but we've been a we've done that.You're not alone.Yeah, I'll Circle back to the.I'm just thinking that study I read about clinical errors.
The other thing that was really important for the I think the state of model was they interviewed people who had been on the receiving end of a medical error and then ask them about their experience and what they would have wanted to see Or what was good and what was bad.
And the other thing is, is, I plan, oh, I think it was honesty.And then it was compensation of some sort, but not necessarily Financial, just make it right.How are we going to make this better for you?Whether it's, we could have fixed the problem, then we caused.
And then the last thing was a plan of how you're going to stop this from happening to other people.Often people's main issues or this went wrong.And you clearly are incapable and you can't work in you.Nobody should come to your business when actually by saying that shouldn't have happened.
Here's what we're going to do to stop it from happening in the future can be a huge shift for clients.I really like that.Yeah acknowledgement of the potential harm that you've caused.Yeah and making a plan together and finding out what people want.My don't just assume.
I don't assume if you throw thousand bucks, that are two goes away or Now you buy a new door with something work with them on how they would like to see it fixed.Nice.And I'm going to have to just ask you about the rubber band because I'm guaranteed.People are listening to this growing.
What got her so sorry it's state of it tie.You use a rubber band.Yeah.Yeah hang on.I don't know why I've got them in my drawer.Look that's got.So those are your standard standard say I was like a postal, this sort of energy output on a letter or something for spokes or something.Yeah, so if that's an ET tube things I this is awesome for people listening at home.
Um yeah.Is it holding up a finger holding up a finger?I said, let's put the rubber band around it and tuck it in itself.Yeah, gotcha.I just ties like that way.Don't it?Take a screenshot.I'll put it in the show notes so yeah, it ties around that.
So it grips very well, they certainly grip, the choose well, but then, of course, that bit around the back of the head.So there is, I'm the have some kind of movement when we we could because we do suddenly move the head in dentistry.You can easily clean them and reuse them.
If you'd like to do that or they just keep things and after that mishap are you still using over bad?You haven't changed.You still use it.Also think I should.We didn't sit down and plan on how we're going to stop it from happening in the Future.Do We is at stake?
Yeah.Otherwise we do take them off well earlier.Okay, so I think once we are waking up and I guess I've always done this anyway when everything with my patients are off of there.Anesthesia and that disconnected from circuit, I like to have all tires come undone, okay, so that we don't have a tube potentially stuck in a mouth, cuffs down everything that is, of course, you've experienced it as well.
We'll all we have some of these patients decide that they want to be up and suddenly over home.Yeah, yeah.And so we need to be able to quickly respond to my removal of the ET tube.Potentially quite quickly.Yeah.So, now, instead of just taking off the back, the rubber band off the back of the head.
And leaving it Loose.I take the whole rubber band off so they'll sit there just with an ET tube.It says nothing, nothing tied to teach you.So yes we have, we have taken steps to try and ameliorate that.It's very tempting for me to head down the clinical path, but it will avoid technical talk.
It's good movement movement of ET tube.Yeah, let's let's talk about Dentistry though.Yes, your Specialists.Are you bored?Sort of your what?No.What no, oh no.Don't say that.I'm not She was just talking to someone last night, we kind of inside with a special interest.
That's the kind of thing.You go to special interest.No, not us.It's a protected term.Certainly in Queensland, New South Wales, and I think all Mountain States any derivative of the word Specialists.It's quite protected.You can't use it.I can not even really allowed to use the word consultant.
I'm not even really probably adds a dentist.Okay, I'm just I'm just an enthusiastic amateur, okay, it's okay.So I had my memberships in dentistry.I got that back in 2004 and I've solely working in referral work to do with Dentistry but now I'm not I'm not a specialist dentistry in Australia, very dangerous Australian.
It has been, we do not have a fellow industry here, okay?And only we've only Ever had a couple of Specialists, we do have them so wide, that will come back to the why, and why you would want to do it.
But if somebody wanted to get into Dentistry more, what are the options and what is the journey look like for?Yeah, I guess there's a couple of paths.I guess, it depends on what your ultimate end games going to be in, currently, in Australia.And I guess with the reason I was listing off those other, The Specialist that we do have here, of course to do a residency.
You you need to work with a specialist.So we now do have that as a realistic option in Australia.So the pathway could if you want to become a specialist, it requires a residency under the tutelage or mentorship of this, another specialist.
Okay?So that now has become semi-realistic unknown.Eased has got any residence in the moment.So a lot of people are still going to do.Residencies in the United States.Europe is obviously an option as well.Dear paying colleges is certainly recognize here as well.
However, I think what I do see and is provided by the Australian, New Zealand College of every scientist membership, the membership in Veterinary, dentistry and oral surgeries is what I have and it's and we see a lot of people going through the chapter and getting their membership.
I guess.Where does that take them realistically?It can take them anywhere.I guess that's all I had.It might some people do that just to get high degree of Knowledge and Skills in an area but then they're not aiming at doing anything particularly with it.
They may want to be the go-to Dentistry person within their practice.That's really quite a few of them are taking local referrals from just the local town or suburbs but yeah, I think the difficulty in dentistry and I think You would have experiences.Well, an emergency because it was an emerging field because we didn't have enough people around.
It was hard to really get off the ground in Australia.It's a and there's through people who really got stuck in and put a lot of time and effort to get and that especially off the ground.This is what we need in Australia in dentistry.Unfortunately, I'm not the person for it.
I yeah, II was in a Residency program for Fellowship.I was would have ultimately Lee if I had a stuck with it I would have been the first fellow to come through out of in Australia.There's a few different reasons.I didn't complete it.
Not least of which I became very scared.I got scared of the amount of work that was that is required for residency and I was scared of the effect that would have on my family because I think it does.And I know lots of people have died and and better people that I have sacrificed a lot to do.
Residencies and I I kind of conclusion, I wasn't particularly prepared to and I think for me that comes from I just I've never had that incredible drive to be a specialist.That's a great topic to discuss though because that that is huge and I think that's a people underestimate the commitment.
Yeah.Yeah.Commitment and sacrifice.And I my business partner dr.Beck taka.She's very close to finishing her American residency.She's got one example.Just finish pull back like she was about to sit a prac exam.It was the last thing she had to do then we had covid and they only do prac exams in Las Vegas so she's been 23 years now before.
So this is this is Dentistry that she's doing Dentistry year.One of the two American colleges that still has a prac exam.They're destroying an OP.So no one else does it, but Dentistry does.I said, part of part of specializing would be a practical exam of some sort.
Yeah, but again, only with dentistry in Ophthalmology through the United States system.The America.That's right.The Australian Fellowship system.I'm not aware of anyone doing practical examination yet, so I saw back goes through what she went through to study and get ready for for her exams.
Who written examinations, it was a hell of an effort.Again, on a personal note, if it wasn't for me, it really did frighten me a lot.I did I didn't then I didn't want to go through it and half-ass it and Dale.I would have felt very bad, probably ashamed, actually, but yeah.
And and and hats off the Kudos and claps all around every resident.That's completed residency and gone on and specialized even the ones that have not and but have completed their residency, they've put it in my aging effort, it does go, it is recognized but I think we don't recognize that specific part of their Journey may be enough.
So what would be the If somebody's considering the options, what's the advantage of going all the way to special?Is it just a state has to be able to say?Yeah I'm a specialist time of the the top of the tree sort of a thing.I think it depends on the area that you're interested in.
I think in dentistry, and I might be saying this because I'm relying on it.I think it does.She wear still small enough?Just I think it we are right in the time when we're flipping over, I can rely on.I've done it for a long time and I'm not a specialist but people know who I am and I'm good at it.
That's enough.Whereas, in the future it will be okay.I want to, I need to see a specialist.I don't know who they are, what their background is.But unless there are specialist, I'm not going to see I'm not going to a surgeon, and then I think potentially is already happened in medicine and surgery to a large extent.
My last you've ordered you're probably not going to get referral work.I'm not quite sure that minor may be quite wrong, but I think in those larger disciplines, yeah, you have to get specialization or else you're not probably going to really go to go anywhere.But ultimately, again, I'm done.
This is sounds very dismissive.I'm not trying to dismiss it.It is Just some letters.If you can do the work and you can provide that service.If you've got the drive, you can eke out for yourself a niche in referral, without it, if that's what you want to do.
I guess we see.I see that happening in the behavior discipline.There's a lot of members.Are they doing really great?Referral work and we are seeing a cohort going through now, becoming specialist in Behavior.
So another small discipline which has only got Couple of specialist currently I don't change.And once there's enough on the ground and we'll be running around residency programs.All over place with behavior.Yeah, but now I think you can do it and then the benefit of being a specialist is that it does underline a say hey this person is putting the time and effort they know their stuff.
And again back to the kudos for people going through isn't see if they know a lot of stuff.The so much stuff.Yeah, I had this discussion about Imaging with a specialist friend.Once when I had a stage, I rated myself, as a fairly decent.
I'll just you know, I'll just an aquifer because I've done it for a long time.Yeah.And then chatting to a specialist magician friend and they said, yeah.But what you don't understand is what we go through in, residency, how many things I had to sit through and scan and sit and look at different images and look at all these things and all the weird things.
You may be under head of I've seen ever scared and so she said, you don't know, you don't know what you don't know until you've gotten through the program.So they she said there is up, there is a difference and I'm sure it'll be the same for any.There is a difference now and then, and I completely agree.It's neither, does she feel there are many, many, many more than confident?
Excellent.General Practitioners, are there that do, excellent Dentistry.But, and again, I am not including myself in this, but the specialist out there there, baby.Base knowledge is right up here.Yeah they don't necessarily get to blurt it out all the time and necessary talk about it for every case that comes through.
Yeah, at their core base is just so much higher than everyone.Yeah.And and so it is everything.They do is second nature that I think.That's maybe that's what specialized specialization provides for clinicians.
Everything is second nature.You have had, you've hammered that home so much.You don't, you don't consciously think about things.It's, yeah, we can all get to these answers.I think, I think specialization the things that specialist do and not Out Of Reach of of a general, practitioner the to get, if you're a specialist, it doesn't take that takes effort.
Again, I'm not trying to downplay what they do, but it doesn't take as much effort to do achieve these things as if you're starting from scratch.Yeah.All right.So we've got it.Talk about why Dentistry Most, you know, so many of its and I probably count myself among them but I hate Dentistry.
So why in the world did you choose to just do dentist?It's a common question.It's a common question because we exactly what you said.Like it's a default Baseline for veterinarians.Is they dislike Dentistry?That's the default.
Yeah, you come out of University with that.I I also was Out of that group, I disliked.And in fact, sometimes hated dentistry in general practice.I think the big big one for me is I really didn't have the skills to extract teeth properly and extraction is the most common surgical thing that we do.
I wasn't great at it.I found it challenging and very frustrating.But I received I was able to participate in some Cee relatively early on my career probably five years outside on.No.Probably just that for five years out where I did get to learn how to perform surgical extractions and that really changed things for me a lot.
I didn't start loving Dentistry but I started to deal with it and not run away from it.I used to I used to run away in practice from and I find other things to do rather than do the dental work.I'll be the one that we could go and do those x-rays for you.
Y'all gon get him down, easy.Yeah, I want some urine sediment looked at on on do anything except she didn't mind just doing the dental.I'll do everything else today.Yeah I totally get that.Yeah 100% And so but that made it I was okay with it and then I attended a see lecture given by dr.
Gary Wilson 11 night and something.He said Inmate and probably the way Gary put it across.I don't know if you've ever met Gary really great guy, like an Australian larrikin might be that a good way to characterize Gary.He actually popped in yesterday knows, but to do some work on his dog, either way.
So I had a really wonderful catch up with him yesterday but certainly the Gary's mannerisms and characteristics are I find grade?And so it was probably that the way he put a cross dentist, So there's something you need is this something?
They said I started to hang around Gary, a lot, anytime I had a spare day, I'd go and hang out with him when he was doing his referral Dentistry work and I then started to understand how much was the field of how big the field of Dentistry was and I like, I guess reflection.
What do I like about Dentistry?Which I think these are things that entice me to go down in this line of work.The immediacy of results.It's that I life a lot.I can be satisfied that even that afternoon.
My patients are better.I like that logic.Even the and I still do is and people think it's a bit strange.I think know you work a referral.Do you really like scaling teeth?Yeah, I do like, it's going teachers really great.Yeah, you're right.It's a, it's a just done with the day's work at.
He step back and go, look what I've done.Whereas, with it along, with some of the so many other things, it don't get that at all, especially Made it in this.Chronic M against his medicine to me.I again if you're a neat medical internist Well Done by gets too hard.
Like at least again with Dentistry what I'm dealing with basically except for our discussion last week about x-rays.Everything's right there.You find me.I don't have to go digging too much to find out what's going on.Yeah.The immediacy of it, the intricacy of it.
I like that.I'm personally, like, fiddling with things and little things and we get lots of little instruments and toys to play with in dentistry.I'm so if that's the kind of thing that you're after then, there's you should do that.Yeah.And yeah, and I slowly got sucked into it.
I don't I had never been driven to be a dentist.I'd never been driven to be that either.It would the I'm not one of those, not one of the kind of veterinarians that from that from, when they, he could speak, he wanted to be a vet.I wasn't, I became a That when the guidance counselor in grade 12 said you need to get your options for uni.
What are you going to do so maybe be a vet.Yeah well I know that's really non-romantic I don't know what I it's funny.I have kind of the same.I didn't know what I wanted to be by the time I was 17.Yeah good.That's a that's a few shows in it in itself, isn't it?
Yeah, that's a that's a that's actually really big topic.But yes, I Dentistry I didn't always want to do it and he was probably because I did find it difficult.There's a couple of moments where I got these advantages and and was able to perform Dentistry better.
That that's not I started to see value in it.Yeah.Yeah.I don't have a romantic story about Dentistry either.So, what, what?Well, my first question, and I think that probably will, personally won't.I would imagine would be a problem, does not get bored.
It's not just the same Shadow very day or do is there enough variety to enough satisfaction that it, counteracts that I think it's the satisfaction that I get from it.And again, it's probably not a good thing to put your hand up and say, I enjoy extracting teeth again, that's come full circle.
Has that, but I always think it sounds strange to say, you enjoy it because ultimately, that's, that's not what we're about is dentist.We're trying to save teeth, but I actually do enjoy extracting teeth.I find it.Very satisfying.So I think that part of your You question.That's probably what I really enjoy every day.
Okay.The diversity of it, you know, there's a lot of repetition for sure but that I think that's across the board.Yeah, it's right in my imagining certainly emergency workers all ice-crazy all the time, it's different by.
But but ultimately there's patterns to it and there's only so many vomiting dogs.You can see refresh that's getting a bit boring.Yeah, absolutely.What and that reminds me I My it was in my second job.My first job was to six months and my second job last effect.
Now, if he is, I remember being after sort of my first year of being a veterinarian, would have been one year out.And my boss at the time it was close to Christmas because it's Heist this anniversary of being a vet he said so what does it feel like to have seen everything you have going to see I went.
Oh really.Now on one hand?He was correct.Yeah, we're always going to see something different from time to time.So sorry how many years out?Just three only about one here.Oh wow.Okay, maybe was too easy but it was really early career.Yeah.
And I think it is probably correct.Again, there's these from time time.There was crazy stuff because I'd say 80% of everything you're going to see her maybe and maybe 90 possess.Oh yeah.But then Also that's also daunting Lee horrible right now.
God if it's going to be like this, the rest of my career, what's gonna happen.So, yeah, in dentistry, I routinely it like, some days, just to exactly like the day before, which is exactly like last week, but I think you're right, it's a satisfaction.
I personally derived from these, these cases that keeps me going with it.And I do truly wake up everyday, really, looking forward to work.I enjoyed the work I enjoy.Oi the client interaction.I enjoy working with the staff that I get to work with.
So well that makes for me makes a really great day.This is about this Mastery, come into it.There's some of the satisfaction come from being really good at something because I think it's gpv.It's Sydney for myself, often that feeling of feeling slightly lasted slightly in over your head on, almost everything is there's exhausting.
Yeah, I would have, does it help to go?Yeah, this, this is by bitch.I know what Doing it is I think that's a good thought.I think you're right, because if we doing things, we're not necessarily about depth but we're not entirely comfortable with.
We're not over it, where there is that level of stress. and that that does as you said, it wears you down, it really gets to you whereas if you have some degree of Mastery and expertise you can just not with we're not without thinking or can we can just you can just float along doing your thing.
And yeah it's enjoyable and you're not it's not a it's not a huge effort for everything that you do.You know, if you've got those, are you here from time to time, 10,000 hours, got put 10,000 hours of something.You will master that skill as ice trying to work that out.
So I was taught strangely enough.I was talking to my daughter last time I eight-year-old daughter.She gets a little frustrated sometimes it when She starts something that if she can't get it, right?And unfortunately, she's gotten his trait from me, which is now, just as I'm saying that I'm going, why the hell did you become a dentist?
But one of my traits is yeah, if I can't do it right and very well, the first time I lost my walk away from it.For me that's actually more round art.I think I'm artistic.But so often when I do things because I can't get it right the first time, she's that she's similar.
So we had This discussion last night, I sang to, you can't expect that from yourself.Don't put those pressures on yourself.And if all these people that you see, maybe you're watching them on your YouTube or Tick-Tock things like that, they've try and remember they've done these things for a long time and this and as I said I 10,000 hours is bandied about a lot.
If you put in 10,000 hours, you're an expert and we looked it up and 10,000 hours was 416 days, straight you're good.Don't have done this before and she said, no, no no.You never sleep in that.Yeah, exactly.Whatever 416 days.
That's a lot.That's a lot of time and I think personally I've got to do that with a quite a few things.So yeah, maybe maybe I'm I've mastered quite a few skills and and maybe we put that that advice that I gave my eight-year-old back to everyone else out.
There don't set the bar too high for yourself because it does take time to get It varied it says you could so many topics that I think about often but that exactly that thing.I see it's so much Advanced and I was definitely the saying but I see it in young weights as well.
It's so used to being hyper.We are so used to being high performers and doing well.It's tough.Then when you start doing something hard and you suck at it, it's always surprising.Like, almost for the head, that's this thing was terrible because I suck at it and you just want to leave it.
Yeah.It's I don't think they interested isn't that category?Because you can sit and read all the books by the industry you want.But when you get your hands in there and you lack the dexterity and you like to steal just through the sheer lack of Actus, it's fucking hard and then you go, I hate this tree.
It is, right.It's a good example.Dentistry is absolutely a Hands-On skill.It's a surgical skill and you've got to do it and do it, and do it, and do it, and then you'll be okay.And then you keep doing it and you'll get better and Iowa, it's always sound flippant when I say it because I was always trying to say it is a bit of a joke, but always do say to people when I'm lecturing about particularly extractions of election, would talk about how this is how we should do.
What if we got a workshop, we do practice on a few teeth.And I always say that I said it's going to be probably two years down the track and you'll be doing something and you go, that's what he meant.Yeah, I got that.That's, I've got the feel of this is what he was trying to describe and it will take a long time to get to that point.
But yeah, we do put a lot of pressure on ourselves and I think you're right about.We are generally High performers coming into this profession, From the background that's required.Of course, to do the educational Forum, the education we do.And we don't, we haven't always got support structure, internally and externally sometimes two to help us.
When things don't go, right?And when things are not, when we're not achieving at that level, so I can be crushing to have something go wrong or not as planned, or not as good as you had planned and that can really stuff.
People, I think new grads particularly yeah.But if you're someone like me, and you've made lots of mistakes, etc, etc.New, it set me up to be able to brush it off and then I'll be okay.What else?Then that's, that's not fair to say that either.
It wasn't for me earlier my Creoles, not like that either.Every, every little thing that went wrong really got to me.But over time habit, again, I did 10,000 hours of mistakes.I've got to be a master at that in mastering how to deal with it because yeah you did GP practice kept doing GP practice.
You said the other day until fairly recently, right?It's yeah, II finished GP practice in 2019.So brief sort of timeline was six months in mixed practice.Initially ain't half using also.Make it was officially mixed practice but it was basically Small Animal Practice.
And they need to referral work but when I went into Rafael work because as your first, we're lazy, when I work for those who ate that 50 on Friday, I always still J paying and I did that right.So 2019, so for 14 years I was 2G paying one day a week for the first five, ten years of your career, did you did enjoy it.
Enjoy GP work because that you sound like you love what you do.Now did you did ever loved what you did back then?After 5 years, probably in the first five years.No.My first job I really loved and I always always look back on that really fondly.
I think I was I was lucky working where I did as Roma Veterinary Clinic.Shout out to the guys out there.I think that set me up for a good career.In my second job and longest GP job, the facts did excellent was excellent, Practice still, he's an excellent practice.
I'd still rated highly mostly because all might still work that they do it.They do a really good job, but there is there was pressure from a couple of areas there.One of me still being new still trying to learn what I needed to learn and be be better at what I did.
There was some degree of pressure.From management through business drive, that practice does have a high business drive and part of that it was a larger practice.And with that, we would, this was pre emergency clinics being particularly around.
So we're working 7 days.But we're also running array after hours.And the setup, we had, it was alternating between myself and the other associate.So, basically, every second night was nearly on call now, It wasn't high demand on call but not on.
It would be rare to have a night where we didn't have anything.So that all that combined to me by about three or four years out, I wasn't having fun and I work wasn't hard because I think it was everything around it.I'm not really sure exactly why I didn't really like it.
It, it was probably the hours.Probably I think that the stress of that really became a bit much and I did look out.I looked outside the And I think, I mentioned last time, I was two days, a fortnight.So our roster worked out.
We had Wednesday, Thursday off, and then we would have a Saturday Sunday off in a two-week rotation.That's all you know of.Yeah.So yeah.So, when you came back after the Thursday, you'd start Friday.You finish the following Friday with on call every single night.
Yeah.And and on can you would be well, you'd be on call the phone tonight, so, no, it's Sunday night.Yeah.Yeah.That sounds like and working.Yeah, they met Are you gay UK days when you had your weekend on?It meant. 14 days straight.Yeah, yeah, it's tough in it and it get it.
Yeah.It was hard and I know people get it harder too much of a good thing even I actually I said this the other day because to me one of the big changes in my enjoyment of the career was not doing too much of it.
Yeah.And I said I don't know why we surprised by that but I I'm an obsessive server, I love surfing but I've been on a two-week surf trip where by day ten I was over it.Like I've said, okay I've served Enough.I don't, I don't know what are sitting there going.
I'm watching the up diet, shoulders ahead, I'm served out, I'm done.Yeah, and then why the thing that I'm absolutely passionate about, if I can hit that with surfing then of course, with the job we do, there's a little bit.Exactly.Exactly.Yeah, and and then might have been it for me.
Maybe that's why Dentistry appealed to me and referral work, specifically, is because we could really just Pace it out.It wasn't, I wasn't going to Be booked 925 with dental cases all day.We get to to extent, pick and choose.
Yeah.But what I say?So I had that Wednesday, Thursday, afternoon Fortnight, I then ended up working in doing work experience in a company that had a large art Department.I was going to be I was going to go back to Union do graphic design, but it was in that around that period, that that's when I went to that lecture by go Wilson, that sort of turned me around and put me on the path.
Dentistry.But now I think it's common, we end We would is is it's a topic that comes up marks veterinarians all the time.Like we are struggling as a profession.We are we are losing people, we are losing experience.
That's because they hit this wall.Seems to be the hit.This wall starting around.Maybe three years out and going through for another few years.He this wall and go, I can't do it.I'm out they they just to put it towards my experience.
They weren't lucky enough to find something that they that kept them.In the profession and I would have been me.I would have been, maybe it's no loss but I would have been lost profession if I hadn't have found dentistry and yeah, maybe maybe the profession needs to.
There's, we need to do a lot of things, I guess.But may, we need to develop these Pathways for veterinarians to have a fulfilling career there.And there are many things, I think that going to The difficulties of veterinarians have at the at in this three year three, four, five year, mark, there's stresses in the workplace, this dress is by H.
Demanding clients are no, is a massive issue, things like that.It's just generally, not the work.Most people never particular complain about the work that I'm aware of.Yeah, so so if we have these Pathways to help people out of that, yeah.
Maybe we have more overshares like, We were talking yesterday about this topic and and I made the observation, I said, really we have the veterinary profession is becoming, you've got a lot of old vets and you've got a lot of young bags.You don't have a lot in the middle anymore.
Those people became middle-aged and went, I can't do it and they left us only old sticklers that I don't know why we hang around, we got thick skin or something.And well again, not a positive note, we found something that we join with low and that's kept us in depression, but and we do creative enough to think of another option that no one else would have come back.
No.Well, that's why we become the old vets.Yeah.We've Get out.How these Aaron.If you spent 48 48 this year, if you are, wow, you really do look.Young - can I say again all used to take that are used to take that as a harsh critic.
I hated it.Now, I love it.I see, I was about to say, if you said old red, one more time, I'm gonna, I wish I could purchase because I'm not budging linear and I'm not a neurologist.Did stop saying that you looking good, right?Yeah.Well, well I guess yeah.
What do I mean by all that did I think certainly The fish hands.Yeah, you know, like 40s and 50s 50s plus, I guess is what I'm sort of talking about it.But yeah, we've lost a cohort out of our profession and unless we do something, I'm going to keep losing it.Yeah, yeah.
So I don't suck.I've just just finished reading a book, which has made me think a lot about this because I'm like, you, it's exactly like that floor up until about 10 years.Actually, if I, if I had another option, it clear pathway, I probably would have taken it.
And so many of the Reasons.I did a lot of Uncle hated hated hated on call.So started an emergency clearance which in itself, we can Circle back to that, but maybe sometimes taking the thing that you don't like.And and mastering, it is a way in itself to deal with the middle.
That's a whole different topic.We can come back.Yeah, it is.I think you're right.Yeah.But the just this book, I like that.Keep talking about Seth Godin.I'm obviously a big fan, you know, Seth godin's writing, I'm loud concept.Is it fits of Mark?Eating guy, but he's just a generally, a very smart person.
He's got a book, a small little simple book called The Dip, it talks about everything that is worth doing that ends up giving value either to you or to other.People has a dip as I guess a graph this progression.You start and it's really fun and exciting that goes up a little bit.
And then you hit the dip and then very slowly.And it can be, it could be years but you get out of the dip, you get out and it's done.Creating that Value Point.And it says, the problem is the book is a lot about quitting as well.When do we quit?
And that's, as you say, that's a common question, we see it on the socials all the time.I'm afraid some two years out, three as out.I don't like it.Should I quit?Yeah, are really common question, isn't it?And then he says, in the book, quit before you start.
This is a you need to quit a lot of stuff.There's a lot of stuff that if you know that I'm not going to, I'm not prepared to go through that dip to get to what's on the other side.Don't start quit.And that's for all little Side Tracks in your life.All the land that I've been thinking about, what, how do you transpose that book to our profession?
And it might mean that within your Veterinary job.There are these things that I don't feel like I want to put in the effort.I'd, I don't want to become a really good.Interest.It's not my thing.So don't stop for almost managed within a workplace.It's not always possible but definitely the thing.
Pick something and go.Yes, this kind of be a period of time that it's going to be really hard.It's gonna suck, but that's entirely normal.That is what separates the really good people from all the other wannabes and when you get to that point, then you go, now, it's easier now, I'm better.
And now I can give a lot of value and receive a lot of value through through your value, which is really.It's like, I've been About that book a lot.And I wonder how many ways and he says the worst thing you can do is to quit in the dip, good for the dip but they're good in the dip because yeah, because it's too hard.
The pain is your short.Yeah.Pain forces you to quit that was my thought when you started describing I think that observation is wonderful.I think it's entirely correct and it is then would be again you can't necessarily know maybe you don't know you do you know you're in the dick, you physically.
So the he says there's three patterns you've The dip you've had the cul-de-sac, so the dead ends.So, there are some things that just stuck in and it's shit.And it's a dead end and it's not going anywhere.Those you should quit.So, you should think really long and hard this job I'm in or this thing I'm doing.
Is it a dead end?And then the third is a, is the cliff where Things Fall Apart and unfortunately.Yeah, for, for many of us, it does end in the cliff where thinks you're push push push and then that you fall off the cliff.Unfortunately, some of those two too literal some time but yeah, it really something interesting to think about.
It's over to the cool little book.Does sound interesting?Yeah absolutely.Yeah.If you know that the other end there's going to be a payoff.Yeah it can be worthwhile.Just keep on waiting through the crap that you got to do to get there here.Is it would be hard to.It's hard to know like if you're looking left and right and forward and back and all you see is what you see shit.
Like it can be hard to know the island that you are going for is just over the horizon.That would be hard.It is hard.It is very hard.It is really hard.But again, you talk about residence.Is that just the For example, there is it in see how I said?Yes, the dip.Yeah for me.
Yeah, and I've seen people go through that, the div and saw how deep it was?It scared me like that wasn't.I don't want to go through that.And again, I don't want to put my family through that because I, yeah, going back to it.That that it puts a lot of pressure on families, I guess, that's why, and again, no offense to anyone, while single people potentially or people early in She's maybe not without children, things like that, that it's easy.
It's not easy, but it's easier to sell resin.It's a good time to do it.Yeah, I think so.But there's wonderful people with big families that do it as well.And they've got the support of a lot of their family to do this and it helps them get through.
And I admire those people.I had, I've worked with a few of them and I think you've done an incredible job and you you truly were The old for this specialist title and look at that is why I think it is as it is a special thing.And and I can't come along and say I have a special interest in it.
I can't say that it.Well, I'd, we probably have to start driving up.I feel like I could talk to you forever, but let's do a fun word.I've tried.Just trying this question out for, for sighs.I think it's really fun.If, you know the sports games, when with the boxer walks into the ring and it is, and there's a song that plays in the background, Yep.
If in your life every time you walk into a room, there's a song that has to play theme song.The theme song, what is Aaron's theme song?And it's a very hard question so you're allowed to tap out of it because I can't think of an answer for myself.
I did I did think of answer like again I think if we give me a heads-up on it.But I actually I've circled right back around to the the first time I did think of I'm going to go Ways.And so that song is Threes And Sevens by Queens of the Stone Age.
I don't know why.It's not the lyrics, it's the feel of the song to me and the way it bursts out with a lot of energy, initially that's what sort of I think drew me to it.There were a few others bandied around.I actually went, we had a chat as a family last night about it.
Cool.My eldest suggested that Metallica song.I'm very intimate aleca you You can see on the my wallet what are you can't see him properly but there's posters on my wall from Metallica so very much into Metallica but anything that really was a good theme song and that it's those same songs actually.
And I am here with my wife, what did you name suggests?I thought, and that's right.Yes.So my youngest my fog roll said, oh what was your dad's theme song?Be she said, Justin Bieber.Yeah, so I completely dismiss that, that was rough.
To answer that we have you designed that child for suggesting special.Yes, yes she does only between Metallica.Justin Bieber is a chair.She needs re-educating.I would have been happy if she had a said something off.You can't I we've been listening a lot to the Encanto Theta.
Did we don't talk about brood.Oh yeah.Exactly.Yeah.Absolutely.Although the kids have found the Spanish version of the soundtrack and we're listening a lot to that.I'm glad it over.I would get in trouble for this ability allowed to play music but I'm going to, I don't know what to do.So that's it.
Carriage House.I've created a channel is that Sumi Queens of the Stone Age for Joshua come around.So what?Yeah.All right.
Let's do the last couple.Are you a podcast listener at all?Yes I am.I am I I really enjoy my podcast.I because of I travel every day to a different hospital, my do a fair bit of travel.Actually that it's often at least an hour each way for me to commute.
I'm okay with that because that gives me.To listen to podcasts.Oh yeah, I do enjoy my podcast.So favorites, what should I be listening?Favorite.So I have got my list here.I just, I looked at, I had to redo my tackle podcast lately, been playing out for me, so, I've changed over, I'm using a different podcasting app at the moment, the what do you use?
I haven't, I was going to go to Spotify.Use them a lot but they don't have secure RSS feed.So I get a couple because I'm patreon for a couple my podcast because I really like them.Might support the people that prefer that make them, but I can get my ad free feed.
Oh, Spotify.Yeah.If they fix that, I would use.But any the platform we use for for the clinical podcast didn't used to and now you can actually get it on Spotify as well.So maybe they are coming up.Maybe yeah.Overcast there has been very good.
So yeah, so this morning I opened up my overcast and had a look at my list.I have a few Number one, the one I look forward to every way.I'm I like humor, I'm enjoy comedy.I love the dollop.The dope is a, the dollop.
So wonderful podcast.It's the it's American podcast, a couple of comedians perform it and it's the base is already is that one of the comedian's has done a lot of research?He also of course, now has a team of researchers about a topic and it's a historical topic can be about an individual as well as often about.
Cool events.And he'll read that out to his mate, who is another comedian, and he doesn't know what he's going to be talking about adults.He's not prepared, and then he's very good.An off-the-cuff comedian.He's wonderful as though they just make these stories really comedic and fun but you learn a lot from it as well and I like what I do.
Yeah, it's a bit like when Gerardo and I do clinical episodes together, I do all the prep and he says Roosevelt It sounds like the setup absolutely like Garrison, the communities, these rocks up for the recording and just starts as riffing on it.
Where's types like me?Putting in weeks and it's the writing of it.Another, another couple skeptoid and Skeptics Guide to the universe.All right?Those guys, they're really good.Go they are Skeptics eyes Universe.Certainly, it was originally based, and they are active Skeptics and skipped a community.
A decision.That's the scientific Eric podcast, okay, one of very interesting.All right, so there's no conspiracy stuff, it's not.No, it's not.No, well, that's the, the aliens.The aliens did everything sort of skeptic.Nice.Okay, so the the other one, the first one, I mentioned skeptoid, he's the counter to that.
Okay?Has yes, weekly short 10-minute thing again on these topics and will give a good scientific explanation and discussion about these kind of things, okay?Okay.This wasn't a ghost, this could have been explained through this or this is a way to think about this situation that makes a little bit more sense and some of these conspiracy theories.
Okay cool.That's very good and Hamish and Andy love.Those guys are hilarious.Very good case File.Yeah I'm biased here.I was when I did I was put onto it I like it's a true crime.I cast.I enjoy True Crime.
I don't listen to it a lot but I'm biased because my wife rice for them.M.So I get to hear these episodes from 0 to go.I get to hear how I get put together and then I also then listen to them with it so rides for them, so it's there's a fact Boca.
So she does she do the research and then write it into the episode or what is originally started as a researcher but now is the scriptwriter as well.Yeah, no it's good and yeah, it's give me a little bit of insight into what you guys do and I do have some understanding of the effort that you put in.
And in podcasting engines, got a nice English.I wish I had a script writer and erases.You want me to jump ship my case file size?That's the Australian True Crime.Podcast is really good.
It's very well researched, well written.But yeah, if you like True Crime really good podcast, you probably know of anyway.Yeah, I don't know.And the last one I've been on two over the last couple years is a podcast called Arc.Net Diaries.It's all about.The hacking world.It's very interesting and it's very scary is basically hack is want anything.
I get it you can't store the think I said listen to that the kill will.Raise my paranoia levels too unmanageable live?Yeah so yeah that'd be that's sort of my top six that, I mean, rotation and that works.Because I work four days a week and that sort of the time, it's the morning or night.
Alright, last question.You have an opportunity.The to address all the veg, any new grads of 2022 while you do because they listening to this podcast, all of them are listening.Absolutely.Yeah.And you have a couple of minutes to give them one bit of advice for the careers or lives ahead of them.
What's your bit of advice?Yeah, it's a hard one.I again, scribbling these down.What would I say?And as veterans we need to be conscious of this.Actually, we actually all should have a good answer because through our specialized, we will come across Ross, students, we were, I did an impromptu to for some that were at VSS last night, from Jay, see you later.
They were at a loose end so we ran a quick Dental to so we we all have interactions generally with students.So do think about, I think it's important that we do.I had a lot of notes, but that's not what we're headed for.We were headed for sort of one bit of advice, one key bit.
I guess and I checked with you before we started where I could swear or not on the on the podcast and we thought that would be it, whether it's appropriate, we want to be okay.So it's sort of bond out for me is its life advice and but works for the profession as well.
Don't take on other people's shit.Okay, the client specifically for the profession, we come across clients that are in different situations that can be new very hairy situation and very scared and and not sure what's going on or how they're going to help their pet.
And that's always the toughest one and I guess you get to see their mate in an emergency, but we cannot take on these emotions from them.We cannot take on their problems.Because it's not for us to do.We can help them through it.
We don't take on their shit because you'll go down with them if you do.And that can it can be hard in the other way as well because it's it's lovely to take on all the positive things and take that on for yourself as well, because it makes the high even higher.But I think we also need to be careful with that as well, but don't don't buy into everyone else's problems.
The unfortunate going to have enough e, right?If you take On everyone else's.The problem with it is and it goes back to, I guess another say is that you can you can only you can only fix what you can fix.There are things that are just absolutely impossible for you to do anything about and and part of that is other people's issues and problems and emotions.
They feel what they feel, you can't change it and if you go down with them you're going to have big problems.And I think, I think I see this.In the profession again with chitchat on the socials is that people do get caught up with it and it is hard not to I'm not there is no way.
I'm sitting here saying oh yes it is flick a switch and you can do this these hard and as and is highly a pathetic people which most veterinarians are it's really quite hard for us to do this.I see, unfortunately, people that seem to be getting really upset and drag down when things do go wrong.
And when the inevitable unfortunate life cycle of a paste of a patient is, a lot shorter than us when pets pass and they get caught up with that, there is something there is an inevitability of death and we can't stop them all, but if you want to caught up emotionally with that, it takes a hell of a time.
Yeah, for sure.Yes.So don't yet don't take on other people's.I like that a lot, but it is very hard, isn't it?Because I, it's really hard.You do you do need that empathy?I'm a strong believer in that.Absolutely.Empathy makes it easier to some degree because otherwise you end up also, despising, or at least being in conflict with your clients all the time.
So you have to have to feel That's maybe that, maybe that's what I'm coming to is drawing the line between taking their feelings on board, avoid that but put yourself in their shoes and understand what their feelings by all means, understand what they're feeling, understand where they're coming from.
And I think we could all do better at that actually as well.I, I think we become jaded towards what happens with clients and it is upsetting like clients that don't seem to see that their patient and we'll their pet.Has problems or there's welfare.
She's going on.We have as again.We're empty to the patient themselves as well.I guess he's upsetting to see.I'm not, I don't think we should excuse people, but I think we need to try and understand a little bit where some of them come from having been through it since 8 years ago, since my first my eldest Daughters of born like as a family now.
And I was lucky or typical Australian man and wasn't I'm not the primary pack caregiver but the family's Focus changed a lot when there's children around.So if we sit there thinking, why are you looking after the dog?
Well, they might have be having a hard time with their kids.They take up all their time, and unfortunately, the pets have taken a back row, seat.Well, he shouldn't have a pet then.Well, that's not realistic.We have to understand where people are coming from.Is might not be what you would think, or what you would do, but I think we need to try The stand that.
Yeah, but do make it your problem.That's it's time.I give good advice but I think yeah, I think as somehow as a profession, we get a little dismissive of the clients.Again, it's easy to comment on when it's not your client and wasn't your interaction, but I think we've got to be careful with that highest by nice people are not.
Most people have really fine and good fine.That's definitely good.They're not bad, they're not coming really at you to make your day worse.Worse.They can be having a really tough time.Yeah.Well, they made some dumb decisions.Will do very makes dumb decisions.
They do the wrong thing but again, I didn't exactly exactly.So I think to understand that, don't take that on as your issue help, guide them through it, guide your manager through it, you can't recognize your managers must but because I guess this is the thing as well.
Taking on other people's shit is not just clients.Yeah, it's team members is the people you With as well its overall why?It's like I'm not going to be having a big issue with the way that things run either.
I can help guide them into a better way to run but it's not my problem, not your problem, it gets tricky and it's sticking.Like if you're part of things and yet is yeah yeah exactly.Just want to build a UI to do.You want to help and you want to make the, I think it's part of The key things in life is to make things better for everyone around you.
But again, it avoid getting bogged down in the things that your limits control over.But yeah, it's difficult.Holly apathetic people would have a great difficulty in a with it and I don't know if it really smarter people than me need to look at.This is probably have need to look at what kind of Link there is.
Shouldn't this pretty dark topic to bring up right at the end here.But me I don't know what kind of wink there is there and I hope we find the answer to that.I suppose not.I suppose I do hope we find the answer that, but is there something that we do get sucked in and just take on too much, too much stuff.
We can't control.We can't we literally cannot fix this drags us down.Yeah, there's a, there's a short little quote that I really like, it's from a podcast on stoicism in the summary of the whole Old podcast series is do what you can with what you have where you are.
Yeah, that's that's control.What you can control are in this cold.Then I love these conversations.Thank you so much for your time and I can't wait to know.I find it.I'm having a lot of fun.How goals here at the bathtub to have conversations like the one you've just listened to, it will give you inspiration and fresh ideas on how to create a thriving and happy career and life as a bit.
You'll know by now that our focus is on the life skills that we need to navigate this challenging and rewarding profession about the something that I've realized that was the last two years of exploring ways to increase enjoyment of the drug.That is that the Vets who are confident in their skills and knowledge are, as a whole both.
Satisfied with their careers, which makes sense.If you feel Rusty, or uncertain your knowledge.It's very easy for those imposter feelings to sneak in, I don't know enough, not good enough.Conversely, we know that feelings of growth and Mastery are some of the greatest predictors of a happy career, which is why we created a div ID V clinical podcast, three highly practical episodes.
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Dr Aaron Forsayeth