March 15, 2022

#64: Never work with animals. With Dr Gareth Steel.

#64: Never work with animals. With Dr Gareth Steel.
Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon RSS Feed podcast player icon
Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon RSS Feed podcast player icon
Season 1

"High consequence decision making in a complex environment, with imperfect data, on a budget." 

The definition of GP vet practice, according to Gareth Steel!

Gareth has been a mixed practice vet for 20 years with experience across the UK and beyond. When he’s not on the front lines of clinical practice you’ll find him on a different kind of front line as a member of the British Army Reserves. He’s also a total outdoors adventure fanatic, but 2022 saw him embarking on a new adventure when he become a published author with the release of his Amazon best-selling book, ‘Never Work With Animals - The unfiltered truth about life as a vet’. 

We catch up to talk about some of the challenges and joys he describes in his book, like the phenomenon of “I did it tough, so you also need to suffer”, increased client expectations and how it affects how we do our work and our mindset, and what exactly constitutes an 'acceptable standard of care.' We touch on Gareth’s military career and look at the differences between a life in the military and the life of a vet, what he’s taken away from this time in the army, like learning the difference between ‘difficult and hard’. And of course, we discuss the book - why he chose to write it, who it’s for and how he hopes it will influence how the profession is perceived, both by our clients and by those within the profession. 

Go to thevetvault.com for show notes and to check out our guests’ favourite books, podcasts and everything else we talk about in the show.

If you want to lift your clinical game, go to vvn.supercast.com for a free 2-week trial of our short and sharp high-value clinical podcasts, or contact us at thevetvaultpodcast@gmail.com to ask about a practice subscription pack. 

We love to hear from you. If you have a question for us or you’d like to give us some feedback please get in touch via email at thevetvaultpodcast@gmail.com, or just catch up with us on Instagram.

And if you like what you hear then please share the love by clicking on the share button wherever you’re listening and sending a link to someone who you know will enjoy listening.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This conversation started in 2008 in a pub in West Wales.I was a young with, and our guest for this episode, dr.Garrett steel was a Locum in the practice where I worked and as you do after a few warm pints of Guinness on a cold and wet night, which was most nights in West Wales, you try to solve The World's problems and like most beer filled, people Gareth had quite a lot to say but unlike many Berfield conversations a lot of what he had to say actually made a lot of sense and evidently This is still the case so much so that he's taken some of those ideas.
Plus the wealth of experience is accumulated in the intervening decade and a half both as a mixed animal, local Red Cross, the United Kingdom and in his other career in the British military, which included stints of active duty in the Middle East and put them together in a book. 20:22 saw, the publication of never work with animals, the unfiltered truth of life is of it which is an honest.
Often humorous sometimes tragic collection of Gareth And ideas of what it means to be of it.A few weeks after we recorded this episode, the book, hit Amazon's best sellers list, which is awesome.Because now we can say that we've interviewed an Amazon best-selling author on the red valve in this episode, we pick up on some of those Bob conversations to talk about the challenges that rates are facing today.
We discuss the phenomenon of I did a tough.So you also need to suffer we talked about the increased client expectation that rates face these days and how it affects how we do our work.And how it can lead to defensive medicine and a culture where mistakes are unacceptable, we also touch on Garrett's military career and look at the differences between the life in the military and a life of a V8, and what is taken away from his time, in the Army, like, learning the difference between, what's difficult and what's hard.
And of course, we discussed the book why I chose to write it who it's for and how he hopes that it will influence.How the profession is perceived both by our clients, by those in the profession.Please, enjoy dr.Gareth deal.But before we let you go you know that I'm going to remind you about our subscriber exclusive series of clinical podcasts.
Go to VV n dot super cast.com to get the details about what I believe is the most useful clinical learning out there in small is medicine surgery and emergency and critical care.We're also thrilled to announce that we are now offering discounted practice subscriptions.
So, talk to your boss about getting your whole team to join us on our journey to better, or if you are the bus, email us at vet.V broadcast at gmail.com to find out about the easiest way to get your entire team to level up and be on the same page with current best practice, rather than just leaving your team's clinical growth to individual spurts of enthusiasm.
It never gets shared with the rest of the team, okay, back to Gareth.I mean, both intra, I'm draw the public and this is the way it felt.Dr. Garrett steel, welcome to the red ball.
How are you?I'm not familiar being called dr.Corsi in the UK like especially my generation we're just you know we're just there's Gareth cares.Should we go?We recorded as just come against.We've had some chance in the past named Gareth.So for background, everybody, I worked with Gareth back in Wales but long long ago in mix practice over there.
And we had many in-depth conversations in the pub.I don't know half of them.I bet you get us.Can't even remember.There's definitely put me straight on alternative treatments so Homeopathy specifically I had some inklings that they could be something in the air and he disillusion really abruptly.
On any gave me a book to read as a all right.That's so I need to thank you for that.Thank you for for putting me on the I'm glad I'm glad I could help.I think I actually still have Book somewhere as well.So if you need it for today or anything, that's not a problem.Okay.
It's like a hard like cover and then one page and then the back cover in this one-page, it's like how it doesn't work, like it doesn't work.I think the books mostly designed for hitting people of the suggested does work.
I don't know.Exactly a great deal of information and there it's just it's just a fairly chunky volume Gareth.I'm gonna go this one.I didn't warn you about it.Feel free not to answer.It.But after I emailed you question ideas are thinking about Pub conversations you haven't spoke about your childhood and growing up in Scotland.
Specifically, your granddad.I remember lots of stories one story is adjustable mineral.Still laugh about this about being rolled up in a carpet and being force-fed.When was it?Some horrible medicine overall.So it's like a beef extract drink.Yeah.
Is that like Vegemite mixed with hot water or something?It's he's probably tastes similar somewhere.I imagine that's the today really roll you up in a carpet or something like that.Well yeah.So I was about I mean what a carpet that would be a bit too Mafia style and it's more like at like a towel.
Yes.It was something to I mean, effectively majan like as you would wrap up a cat, it's a v.It's very similar process.Don't make sure my limited restricted and then my grandfather.Because he had the strongest hands would be in charge of actually administering.The bovril what's it supposed to cure?
Well, funny.You ask that?So I'm not a very tall blocks.I think my mom's concerned that I wasn't going to turn out to be terribly tall.So there's a theory in some Victorian, sort of mothering book that beef extract could potentially help in that department.So was I, yeah as a cure for shortness, I think was it?
That was the idea, sadly, it's filled pretty badly.Does it treat tick paralysis?Distance.Thank you veneration.Like vitamin c does, you've got to imagine.So you got to imagine Swedish.I mean, this stuff will just doesn't matter what's wrong with you, this will sort you out.Anyway, there's actually a serious question.
So you had a lot of stories about Grand dad and grandma and I don't know what made me think of it.I have these lessons in my life.I have definite values that were said by my granddad specifically.Well, one of my grandparents, have you got anything like that?Have you got something that you think is a big part of Who You Are?
You were taught by either under grandparents.Oh yeah.For sure.I mean we shared a house my grandparents until I was about maybe 16.I think so.They were effectively like a second set of parents really.So me a couple things my granddad he he lost a leg in the second world war.
So he obviously was an amputee, but you worked as an electrical engineer.So up and down there sort of power poles in the wintertime and he countless Stories being chased by bills.And Land Rover has been ruled over by sort of cattle and stuff like this.And it was one of those things that I guess only know, looking back on it.
I never thought of him as an anyway differently abled or anything like that.Like a realized he had limitations in Practical terms but he never ever.Let it stop him in any way.And I think that may be a like, a long-term effect on how I looked at things like that.
I think perhaps I didn't see something to so much of an obstacle because I'd seen what he what he did and the fact that he managed to despite that in Rain, just by coming back from the war, not having a lot of opportunity.He'd he'd really drag himself up by his bootstraps, and I think that was, that's quite powerful lesson.
And then my grandmother is, as a lot of people are, are, are, I mean, you know, the quite quite Victorian in the morals and things like that.So again, I think I got some quite, you know, like a sense of responsibility and stuff like that that I probably lost for a good portion of University.But I think perhaps have come back to later in life a little bit as I really discovered the pub.
Yeah, I mean, I think like many young men, you know, you discover so of alcohol and the opposite sex, a certain point in your life and that definitely a definitely can lead you astray for a Buddha time.Nor do I give you say they're about like role model.Like I don't actually remember my grandparents took my father, he was, he was older than my mother but he was in there in the World War Two and just hearing the stories of like fighting the Germans and all that kind of stuff, it's life or death.
And jumping on a ship that took three months to come to Australia, work in the railroads and working in the web.The minds of Papua New Guinea.It's just like here.I complain about being a librarian for five years.Like I think about that and I go hmm.Okay the June but respect it I'm going to respect it.
Maybe it's maybe it's perspective that at that I've learnt.That is that when your takeaway was perspective or?Yeah, sure.No.I think that's definitely something.That all of us.I mean, and it's one of the things that we, perhaps, Kevin keep in mind, in terms of, you know, I'm sure you know, I know find myself looking at some of the younger generation, look at some things they moan about and thinking well gosh, you know we more nearby like you had an easy compared to me.
But of course I was guilty of exactly the same phenomena when I was young and the people older than me looked at me and thought God, what you moaning about it.So I think there's two things to take away from it.First is to appreciate what we've got because we could be a hell of a lot worse off.And the second one is that perspective of, you know, you're always going to have that cycle and just because Older and you think maybe young people are on appreciative, you know.
Don't forget you were that young person once?You know, I think it's easy to forget that.Okay, so I've got something here.This is, this is the common thought process amongst experience.That's right.We went through the hard times.Oh my God, it was so hard but a bit, but and then you always think, oh, when I did this 10 years ago, I did 20-hour shift side in 22, out of sheets.
I did 16 hour shifts.That's these day eight hours.Shift.It's almost like you went through the hard yards, but then, it doesn't necessarily mean that they have to go through those hard yards.The new went through in order to be successful if we expect that of them.
It's a super unfair.Yeah.Yeah, I think it's also easy to forget that.I mean, certainly for me, I've noticed a even more.So in the last sort of five years, almost exponentially.So is that client expectation has risen a lot So I think while we did work long hours and on call and so on what you were some expected to do, I don't think was perhaps quite so onerous.
I think people they had lost, I think they have lower expectations.I think the accepted more way that you're doing your best.And, you know, you can offer every single service at 2:00 in the morning.Where's think know, you have that expectation that the animal receive almost a human standard of care.
And yet often people are expecting that from you as an individual across perhaps five or six specialties So I think the pressure and graduates is probably, I think this ties ever been, to be honest.And certainly made worse in the UK by the fact that you might agree with effectively free.
Whereas, some students that are paying like 9,000 pounds a year.So they've got significant day on top of everything else.And that's a big change.Yeah, I heard a saying a while ago that I really like.It's nice and simple adjusted pave the way behind you.Because it was shitty for me, doesn't mean it should be said for you, it should be better for you behind me, that's how we progress.
That's how the profession gets better.That's how you could argue just like, you know, Humanity moves forward by exactly that.You know, exactly.If you always said, if we always as a specie said, we'll hang on a minute.Well, well, well I just going to gather wood like yourself out there.Like we, you know, we still be around a campfire in in small bands of hunter-gatherers.
So yeah that's how Society moves forward is.Exactly that.Yeah, momentum.Hmm.There's I thought, okay.The thought that things in Cycles you kind of said something before which was that Cycles okay, we're going around this kind of hard times right?
Hard times I went through a hard time, you weren't hard time.Everyone through hard times, right?But then Hard Times make tough people but then if we're making things easy for people now, let's like, I'm not saying things are easy, okay?Because vet students around the world struggling covid, and, and remote learning all those things.
But if it's too easy than are they Not hard enough, I don't know, but it's hard to say.Because from our perspective, things seem slightly easy.But then if it's too easy, then there's no struggle is no challenge though, right?
Yeah.Yeah, sure.So, I've seen the same sort of, I've heard the same saying and if you know, I'm sure to be missing the meme of, you know, hard times create, you know, strong man, strong Mentor, he times DZ Creek times.Create weak man, weak, man, create bad people.That's the kind of, you know.So note if you like, I think there is something in that.
I think what we also forget is that, you know, I think being challenged to solve intrinsic to what gives humans meaning.And I think if you actually look at all though, life is many ways easier for us on a day-to-day basis, if you actually look at what's happened with that's resulted in people searching out, you know, Adventure Sport base-jumping, parachuting climbing, you know, I mean who'd, you know, this metal clasp and isn't looking for some sort of Outlet of Adventure Sport.
So I think we're perhaps, You know, we're taking me that challenge, but actually what's happening is people are, you know, they're getting around that and they're trying to find that challenge somewhere else.So I think not a lot everybody.But you know, I certainly think that that challenge is, it's not just that it's a good thing.
It's I think it's everything it really is something that the vast majority people want in their lives.So I think people are going to find that challenge somehow.So although we made life easier in some respects, what's happened is, people have tried to find out somewhere else.Well, the challenge of shift or change as you said before.You know, for maybe ask that the expectation is at higher, but now the expect to mutation is higher than was before.
So the challenge they face is not the challenge that we've thought that we faced.Yeah.Yeah.No.I think that's a, yeah, that's quite good way of putting it.I certainly, I mean, I work with couple younger vets though and the ceremony at times me feel completely stupid because it's a lot more up to date on some things.
But also, I see, they're putting this under under a lot more pressure, but things are also, you know things I may say well it will try.I bet we'll see the animal again in 24-48 hours and ultimately, if it gets worse, they want to bring it back sooner.The quite often feel of pressure to kind of solve it right now, completely in, its entirety, and have a definitive diagnosis.
And of course, for a lot of animals like a lot of humans, there's a better return to the mean, there's a better room, you know, the one physiology is tackling whatever is going on.So you know, sometimes all the needs, a little nudge in the right direction and they'll sort themselves out and Nestle have to have a definitive diagnosis for everything.
So where do you think that comes from go?Because I think you and me are very similar.We from the same vintage maybe we learned the skills in the sand, literally, in the same clinic.So I'm like, you, I tend to have a little bit more hands-off approach and yeah, sure, I'm an optimist.
Yeah, comes to my place.Yeah, we're as I see the same often that people have a feel, a lot of pressure to to check everything.Make sure we don't miss anything.Where did is that, is that from uni, or is it a societal pressure, or where does it come from?Yeah, I think a little of both actually so I think you've all missed.
I think what you've got is you probably got a pressure from society then you know, feeds into the Unis.And therefore, that is what they're teaching.I'm sure you've heard of the concept defensive medicine and a couple of marriage as you clean it.So working with perhaps a quite a lot.So I remember working one place with said, well once you're done as a zillion, if you want to take an x-ray to prove, there's no more puppies in that dog, then that's fine.
We won't charge for it.You take that to prove it and I thought and I never did it.And I thought, well, You know, if I've been guzzling about inside your dog with my hands and I come on, say there aren't any more puppies in its abdomen.Like maybe I'm not doing my job, right?But you know plenty of people did take advantage of that.
I've made that mistake.Maybe you're talking to me perhaps.Yeah, I think there's that kind of that.We generate a culture of, you know, where mistakes are acceptable, where your people can't make mistakes.And if and if you do make mistakes often, it's immediately a case of like I mean shoot with politicians.
You know, some people wrong, but you're going to resign.No because you know like otherwise if everyone just resigned a minute made a mistake but nobody living for word.Exactly.First of all, be nobody left for the end of the day and the second thing is you've lost all your institutional memory, you've lost the people who go hang on a minute.
Yeah, I made that mistake actually, let's do another test oral is Chick such-and-such else so yeah, I think there is a there's definitely an inclination towards a canal.A bit of a blame.Sure.And I think that's, I think, but I think that's a cross Society.You know, people make any mistake with a purchase or whatever.
It's just, you know, I've paid for this.I am got that where you going to do to fix it and I think that has ultimately fed into venue medicine and In fairness and the vet schools are perhaps responding to that.It's a certain extent.I don't think they're generating the problem.I think they are trying to prepare graduates for the world of going into.
Yeah, this is not what I planned to talk about it all but I have a The theory about this, I think I may have mentioned it before, but I do think that erodes at the enjoyment of the job is exactly that defensive medicine that fear based medicine.If you're doing things out of fear, you can't possibly enjoy that.
There's no fulfillment in that and then your attitudes different.So, conversely, you are actually, this is my theory out from somebody could disagree with me anytime, but conversely, you're actually setting yourself up for because you approach a situation.With a different attitude.
So your clients pick up on that they go.Why is he so defensive?Why's that person so was acting so weird.Whereas, if you approach it from a say, the word love because I it's one of the but from a love about, I love this, I love doing this.I want to help you.Yeah, I'm going to do it because I want to help you.
Not see what I'm getting at and then begin to pick up and then I feel like you're going to have fewer complaints.But Sydney, that's all I try and practice.I go look.If, if the way I do it by doing my best, And giving one of the things that I think of that goes wrong and I get into serious trouble and I get my license taken away then I don't go off stuff but I'll do something else because I can't I can't I can't work in a profession that doesn't want the best of me.
Is it actually did performing defensive medicine was it just documenting the discussion or even is this documented a discussion appropriate enough to please yourself of defensive medicine because I don't know for me sometimes.
Yeah.Like I feel like As a practicing defensive medicine, ruling things out, but then sometimes it's like, hey, look, this is a clear discussion.So, I would, what I find is that particularly in that clearly in the history and reading that in front of them and sending it home with them it.
So, that's the defensive nature of it.It's clearer to hear you shouldn't include documentation as opposed to defensive medicine out of.Yeah, it was interesting.I think is that all the job?You know, in theory the jobs about animals, the reality is you Do with the owners.
They pay the bills, they do complaining.So, you know, probably actually 80 90 from the job is communication.I think about something Hubert said, actually, I think it's quite interesting.The idea that if you're constantly in that defensive mode actually, I wonder I wonder if that has like a physiological cost to us as humans.
I wonder if you put a heart rate monitor from people and then looped it their attitude in the consultation so on and the stress it pauses you're not always it's always An emotional cost, even if it's not physiologic that's gotta be a an emotional drain.It's a code is all you do is fight or flight mode.
Yeah, I think if you're constantly thinking well, hang on, if this goes wrong then you want to could sue me.Therefore, I could lose my right to practice.I mean, I must admit I'm probably in a similar situation to you where I'm far enough along in my career, where I think, if I stop enjoying it and someone sued me and they said, right, that's it.
You can't do this anymore.I think you know what, like you said, stuff at, I'll do something else, whatever.But that's not true.Of people who are, you know, who just died University.Yeah, just establishing their careers, see, I do know what it takes to make that shift because I think it reflects or a wide apart and in society, but I do think there are ways around it for vets, but you probably need a longer with the clients.
I certainly find.Sometimes that, you know, I look back at my notes.Now, God, you're a document, this this and this, but you realize that you've got that 15 minute window of time, and you've probably done the very best you could to record things, but you know, inevitably miss things out.So I think actually unfortunately, unfortunately, unfortunately, I think actually we always think long consultations just because of the shift in society as much as anything else and the partly because of the bureaucracy is no push down from and from where, you know, well-intended institutions above it.
This is so a good example, would be, you know, I think recently the our CVS or somebody essentially said it's not enough on your concern for him to see.Can we use unlicensed drugs?You have to specify exactly, which unlicensed drugs And that, you know, fair enough but the problem is that's another five minutes, perhaps prodrug discussing the ins and outs of it and why you would use on your animal and why it's appropriate.
So on and the truth is actually the, let's be honest, the owners not best place to make that decision.How can he possibly have any idea?So the reality is the sign up form and have you got informed consent.Probably not and I think we've come very, very attached that I give informed consent and I'm not unsupportive of it.
I think we have to be Let's talk about just how informed that consent can be.It's a bit like when I bring the mechanic phones me and says I want to do this and for change this and ra ra.Is that her?I don't know.I don't know at all what you're talking about.I'm just going to trust you just do what you think is best for my car mate.
Yeah you have to have that element of trust and I think someone would perhaps forget as well as that we think that bureaucracy increases safety and okay, well maybe it does but that five minutes has to come from somewhere?For example, we currently we've got, you know, we can't get enough there that we can't see all the cases were faced with.
So actually, if it means that you see to less animals a day, well actually, is that in the best interest of animals Rec Hall because it was two animals, don't get appointment.They don't get seen was actually, if you took half a percent of bureaucracy, over all the other consultation you could see two more animals.
And I don't know which of those two is best, but I suspect were creeping into the Realms of maybe a degree of dysfunction where There's a little bit too much bureaucracy that perhaps is not necessary.No, that was a rabbit hole that I wasn't anticipating but it's a pain that it's experience all around the world.
Yeah sure.Yeah.Let's get back to the pub.Another Pub conversation that we had ones and you claim, you don't remember this one day in the pub.You told me that you're going to write a book.You said you had that.You had the recipe.You reading all these Adventure.
I'm trying to think of it.A title like Bourne Identity or something like that.You said you've got.There has been nailed.You know exactly what I did.You got to write a book.Basically you know exactly how to do it and unlike a lot of people, a lot of Pop talk, you've actually written a book it's not a it's not a Bourne Identity, I booked but you've written a book.
So I think I did I think I've read a lot of like Clive Cussler and stuff like that and you know, I was like right, hang on, you know, more or less.These are these are pretty formulaic.I've got a good idea of like a highly.I this works as I listened this easier just going to.I'm just going to sit down.
It's gonna take like a mum, just going to bash this thing is fine, you know.Some others have somebody using Antarctica who's invented a Sonic weapon or something, you know, you still like a sort of like, you know, I got over the strong jaw and there is a love interest and the name like Gareth steel or something Dara steel of the SAS I think.
Joe is it?Oh God, Dirk DirectX.Architect.Dirk pets about the guy in The Climb across the Gulf Coast has.Obviously, you have got of some sort of set.Early sort of Punchy lead as it were.But yeah.So ultimately, I did write book.
It's not a kind of action thriller and for, well, this is the public see.But yeah, so it's base is a book about just being a mixed vet and I've started out, if I'm being honest with you, starting a very cynically, so starting to be thinking, hey, you know, like I was away working abroad and I had a bit of spare time and I thought now it's When the evenings starting to write this book and I thought, you know, ultimately it was some sort of commercial success and make a few thousand pounds and you know, great.
But then as I started to do it, I realized that was actually invest in quite a lot of my, you know, I'm spending a lot of time in it and I started to realize actually really, really cared about what was what was writing down and if I don't want to use the word, it became a passion but it soon became something I actually cared about a lot.
And I realized that actually, I think that we are guilty of I think being Pure public communicators in terms of, I don't know the public understand basic very well, but I also don't think we explain it to them very well.So, ultimately, the kind of the, I ultimately, the book became trying to convey to people what the life of event is like, and the challenges involved and therefore, trying to change that trying to change that public attitude, a little bit, however, small a change, you can engender, we're trying to get people to move a little bit towards us and understand that.
It's just tough challenging job and that kind as a little bit of slack and again, wouldn't hurt.And at the same time, I waited to be entertaining.Yeah.What's it called?I know, but tell her.Well, in fact, I have actually, for once I've done a degree of preparation, so it's called never work with animals.
It's published by harpercollins.Oh yeah, that is a legit publisher.Yeah, I mean, no one is more surprised than me.Let me tell you.That's, that's huge.So well, I mean, I know I appreciate the compliment but there is a Lot of luck involved in that I think as well and you've got to go to recognize that.
I think it's a good book.My I've had the privilege of reading it or getting a.I don't know if it's the final draft but some sort of a little and yeah it's very close to final manuscript.Yeah, it always has a number of spelling errors that you didn't pick up.So we didn't want to hurt your feelings.
There's actually just jealousy.I wanted you to fail miserably and it's funny.The guy who read the audio book is actually easy to score each chapter as well and he spoiled a few spelling errors and it's amazing to what extent you get, you know how irritating that is once it's in print, you know, like I think he's spoiled like, you know, something like 13 spelling errors in like 100,000 workbook and each and every single one of them are.
Oh my God.That's not your job.Isn't there like an editor that's supposed to pick up on that?Yeah, sure.But you know it's a big big there's a lot, you know everyone makes that layers and and of course there is Human thing of all kind of alter correcting to send extent, you know, you read what you think isn't page, honestly, what is on the page?
So it's inevitable, that will be some errors, but it's amazing.I thought I'd be super chilled out if you know, sort of stuff wasn't absolutely perfect.But I find myself like chewing.My first whenever I see something wrong, I think that's a fairly classic red trade right there.It's not perfect.Is not good enough for her perfectionism.
Oh yeah.So Ben again, suits?You write the book.Did you write the book with The outcome being again, like understanding the Journey of a vet.Who's writing for, did you write it for us?
Yeah.Okay.That's a really good question.So I guess is a bit of Duality to it.So, the book is primarily for the general public and so is make, is meant to be fun.He's meant to be entertaining.But I mean there's no doubt.It's sad and places and so on, but I must have met, you know.
I do want to come across like excessively.Sort of arrogant or anything, but I think I kind of come to view as a degree of about Public Service as well.So I think there's almost a degree of now.I can think, well actually maybe it's a book you could give to a client and say look you know like I don't have time but have a reader this this gives you some idea of what life is like for us.
So it's primarily the general public but I must admit, I know kind of see it as something that, you know, maybe could help vets a little bit by moving that public opinion.The right direction and equally, I'm sure lots of people read it and recognize, you know, stories from their earlier career and so on.I mean, I'm quite sure the vast vast majority.
Well, almost all of my colleagues could have written a similar book with stories just as entertaining.It's just that.I happen to be the person whose Idol enough to have the time to bother to do.I suspect what I liked about the book is the the honesty in it, you know, trying to portray yourself as the perfect.
Like, you sounds like you're going to edit the stories.Putting what the textbook say you should have done, they know it's an honest and there's a lot of media about rates and what we do out there and a lot of its yeah.So I can't stand some of it.I watched like I watch Gerardo and bond over it.
I think.Why delicious?
I like that?It's going to have to but I have to Showcase some of it.Yeah.With his Question.We've used the several times on the podcast where we something I saw on a billboard one.So I actually painted graffiti on the side of a building that says a decisions.
Make for good stories.Yeah, sure.Supposed to my guests would say true or false and if it's if you think it's true, have you got an example of one of those?And I've read your book and I can say, I know you have a couple of those like, 14 chapters of it, pick one.I mean yeah.
I mean I Be.Yeah, I'd be remiss if I didn't admit that.I think I've certainly the case.You know, I've probably got I think I've got more good stories than average at my age so you can read into that what you want about my, the quality of my decision maker.I'll guess probably try and stick with it the vet.
Anything but, I mean, you know, the personal level they are, you know, I've been quite fortunate that I've been able to travel a little bit and I've done bits and Bobs and ultimately the number of bad decisions.I've made usually through a degree of just overconfidence is just by absolutely Taking we live down in pembrokeshire.
Actually, a classic error of I was I was driving back from I think my driver from Cardiff and there's a little town called carmarthen and they had a seal.It was a ball tool for the weekend and I drove back in a Sunday afternoon and basically I thought you know, I've you know what I've been wanting to do for a while.
I'll just pop in and of course they didn't want to transport all these canoes back so they were selling sort of half price and I thought, great, you know, I'll get myself one of these.So I got one Set in top canoe.Got a paddle.Go to part of the leash.The guys?Like do you want a boy and see?It was like, no, obviously not I can swim.
Why would I want to buy into you?And literally drove straight to Fresh West, which is a Hubert will be familiar with.And you know, there wasn't some decent survey there.But so I just jumped and jumped in the canoe and put in the war started.Paddling I got by the edge of the kind of surf zone and wave, just let me flip me at the ball and I kept trying to climb back in the canoe.
Because it is brand-new as well.So don't let go of the canoe.I don't know, call the paddle.So I'm not like trying to swim ashore falling like the canoe in one hand and the paddle in the other and I kept trying to get back in and ultimately just couldn't manage it.And I know some point I realized that I was going to drown basically and some decent waves that every time a wave came over.
It was like pushing me under who let me down and a come up breathless and of course just get hit by another another big wave.And I just remember like I let go of the board and they're like all the paddle And I was just something for sure.And I remember distinctly having this moment where I thought I'm definitely, definitely going to drive a hundred percent and oddly, I do remember being all leave relaxed about it and whether that was like hypoxia or whatever, but it, sure was thinking, yeah, I'm, I'm not going to make it this is it, you know?
And fortunately, I saw it keeps coming my feet, touch the sand.I managed to struggle the shore and I survived and the ball washed up a bit later.The paddle washed up a bit later about of found myself sitting on the boat like staring at the sea thinking.I remember dad.Amber, the freeze them in my hand, going through my head.I remember thinking they do see, you know, you fall off the horse.
I get straight back on as this Temptations.Like paddle back out and I was like, yeah, I'm not, I'm not going back out there, that's it.I've had enough for today but yeah, I mean, I was like, I was lucky actually to get away with it.There's a subtle pattern in my life.I guess of that kind of decision making being like can Aid, you know, everything he's out of my life at a distance.
I can see that pattern has repeat this or many many times and I suspect that I still haven't ruled out of every morning honest with you.So humid says that you're in the Army was joining the Army, kind of like one of your like Janu purchasing, kind of like decisions, like for now, but now you're in their new train to like shit to hardly that is still trying to swim to shore.
But you haven't quite got a.Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna intervene with my own story.Yeah.That's only happened to me when I just moved to the UK.While I just wasn't moving around.Traveled it.And I had about two weeks before starting My first job as walking around the town of Leicester.And there were, there was a display of the military, they like the recruiting center.
Basically was all cool photos and videos of all cool stuff they do and I grew up in a military family as well.And I was looking at the photos and as fresh in the UK and only been there for like a, like, a week or two.And there's this officer came over and said he thinking of joining.
Like, man, I said, I'm not even, I'm not even English, it's a guy I know.It's being missed the mark half of my units so they freaking okay, Sydney, yeah.Well, I just qualified as a V8.I start my video and I'm gonna go try to make excuses like, oh, that's excellent.
If you join the military with a degree, then you go straight to officer and your pay will be this on a long story short, I was very close to signing up for a pretty good.Pretty much literally.Unlike unlike Gareth though, I have some sense these things.
It kind of bullied me into it or he was like, it was pushing, was like, I don't want to join, but you so fucking powerful and so I'm just kind of side and I'll go away and let me side you got, imagine, how many people have found themselves in some sort of foreign Shore, looking around thinking.
Damn it, Dad.I kind of was so persuasive.That's just trying to buy a pair of shoes anyway, sorry.Back to you.How did?How yeah, how did that happen feeling?So either you are you probably just explained how that happened?
Yeah, pretty much okay.So actually the mother she was like a long-held like it was something I really wanted to do when I was younger and it was I guess it was a point where I thought about doing that full-time appearance.It wisely, I think perhaps a dissuaded me and said well no like go and get a degree and going to do that first and then obviously you've got that to you know God's fall back on it.
If that doesn't work I don't think you know probably like a lot of These the actual remember things like I mean my grandfather was his lost a leg so there's an element of, you know, my grandmother my mother perhaps looking at and thinking, well there may be some benefits but there's obviously some costs as well.
But certainly for me, I'll be perfectly honest with you.I probably failed more things in the Army than you can possibly imagine.But some of the things I V only succeeded in getting through in the end.And I think, actually, for me personally, it's been really valuable as a very different culture from from veterinary medicine.
But what's good about it is two things of differentiate between.So people often use the words difficult and hard to mean the same thing and I can it, I use them actually to mean two quite different things.So something for me, this difficult is high skill.Something that's hard, my actually maybe a little skill but it's hot but it's graphed, you know, it's going to be difficult and I think the the probably the thing I got from military training and actually perfectly honest from feeling things and having to redo them I'm not going to be guy and a lot of stuff centered.
I like carrying loads over a distance and so on.So I would feel things going tree and come back.Try again, is that it taught me to do things that are hard.And I think that's a really valuable lesson even looking right in the book.You know, there was times where I thought, you know, that's it, I'll pack it.
And I just can't be bothered.It's too hard, but I think having that in the back of your head that the goal at the end is worth the kind of the grain to get, there is a valuable lesson for life in general.So yeah, that's been really valued.So difficult just Difficult as something that kind of stretches Your Capacity and capability.
It's like, like, it's something you could do but it's actually hard to do but not just because it's hard to do repeatedly.It is somewhat out of the Realms of your capability.Maybe capability, I don't know yet, maybe it's skill.It means skill or knowledge or something.
Yeah.But we're hard is something you can do, but yeah, so I could give you an example.So a couple years ago, I did a race up in North Wales called well.You do most of else called the dragons back so it starts in Conway and it finishes in I think a place called some dialogue, your translate that for the Australian audience, but it's, you know, it's like 300 kilometers, something like that.
So it's about 50 to 70 kilometers a day for five days.And but the first day has got a think, 50 percent failure rate.So, 50% of people who've paid 1,000 pounds to do the race.Don't make it through day one because it's basically over all the wealth kind of 3,000-foot roughly.
Thousand meter moans.I can imagine, it's not the most barmy, Pleasant weather necessarily being in, why'd you funny enough actually?The way that was amazing.It really was like, is that 25°?Beautiful sunshine every day?Yeah, sunburn was like, will be the major risk but like, for me, personally, like I was never stretched.
Like physiologically like was never a point where I'm so out of breath or my heart rate was so high that I couldn't continue but you know your joints are sore, your feet are sore.You know, the Temptations.Just pack it in especially when you know my wife told me to the start line and stuff.
You know, I could probably make a phone call get picked up in four hours and just to pack it in.As a guy we're seeing we're intensive.Eat and then basically over the course of the week of just fewer and fewer people in my tent and then I think was a day for as a guy there.
Who was saying he said, you know, last year I timed out on this day because of the species.Checkpoint.You have to get to certain times to ensure you come in a safe sort of time in the evening.Did I tell you?Find out and D4 last year I got up in the morning and you know the trouble is getting up in the morning and leaving is quite hard because you're Stephen your painful when you perhaps not totally motivated but I got, you know, and left this guy's, you know, he's kind of he's not mess around a little bit.
You can see doesn't really want to leave and in a believing like an hour later and guess what?He came down again on the same day of the same race but he could have left an hour earlier.So I guess what I'm saying is that the that that for me that race was hard like, Never beyond my skill.
It was never didn't surpass my ability, but it was, it required me to be very relate, very, very disciplined to get over the right time to not bugger about to get my shoes on to leave on time to ultimately get there in the end.And yeah you can carry that kind of thought process across into you know almost anything you desire to achieve for a lot of people, you know, you people say oh you know I want to run a marathon but I just don't have the time.
Well for the vast majority of people that actually Really not true.What you lack is not time is almost always motivation motivation and you just did the other word desire.The desire do I want to do a?Do really want to do it?Some somebody else said, are you interested or are you committed?
Yeah.Yeah.Because I'm interested in a lot of stuff.I'm interested in this race that you talking about but I'm dead but commits I won't be doing again.Yeah.So I mean well, I mean a lot of the Duke is locked down, isn't it?You know, people say, well, you know he didn't emerge from Lockdown with Abby.
Body.Then it was never attain that you lacked.It was more vacation.So yeah that for most of us that's actually the sticking point and we I guess we rationalize and tell ourselves that there's all these other things preventing us from doing it.But actually often it's just like I said having that commitment to the military again you mentioned culture and you said the words it's a very different culture.
We've had a few conversations about culture in the podcast recently so it's on friend of mine, for me?How is it different better?Where's what?Can we learn from Electric culture?So again, it's like military culture a little bit like, perhaps of any medicine is quite misunderstood, I think as well because most people's knowledge of it comes from war films.
So, there is that kind of there is the perception that it's just a piece of telling people what to do, and they just go and do it because that's what they have to do, because they're in the military and that that's how it works.Yeah.That's not the case.You know, Perhaps Perhaps once upon a time it was the case, I think perhaps if you go back to World War one, we had this enormous educational goals between the office.
The man and you had a very, very high honor culture then maybe that was true but also, if you said no you get shot.Yeah.Yeah.Well yeah.So like a top-down directives kind of thing as opposed to the unit on the floor, on the ground, in the field needs to have freedom and the space, to be able to make choices, which may go against the rules or the borders of being made.
Because they are much more information.Because we're on the floor, Sure.Yeah.No, that's absolutely the case.I mean, obviously, the within constraints, but, yeah, but what we see is ultimately, the mostly just a group of people and Leadership, there is the same as leadership in, you know, it's the principles are exactly the same as Veni medicine and the mistakes that people make are exactly the same as inventing medicine.
So for example, if you're a leader, you can't hold people to standards that you yourself are unable or unwilling to meet because ultimately your Respect and certainly, if you look at the machine and modern context, you can't just tell people to do stuff and they'll do it like that that cultures long gone.
The obviously, there is a hierarchical structure and sure to degree you've got that kind of automatic respect of rank or whatever, where you can see, he do this and someone does it, but if you make enough bad decisions and ask for enough stupid stuff to be done, then you know, people will lose respect for you and then ultimately actually the more bothered about you catching them than they are about.
Doing it, right?So when they're on supervised, there's going to say you know what guys an idiot.We're just going to do that and you can't surprise everyone all the time.So ultimately you've got to have the respect of the people beneath you.I think for it to work efficiently, you know, without a kind of absolute Authority and culture and I mean that's true of any - well, I work for people who are very Authority and how they manage the practices.
And what you find is that the men at their back is turned, you know, people Just the do other stuff because the thing they may not think is the best decision or it may be a little bit of a protest or whatever and sometimes people send inadvertent signals, so your vote, your conscience.
Communication, are you?What I you know what am I tell you to do?What I'm asked you to do, but then you've also got the signals, you send it subconsciously.So I could examples be, I worked in a practice where the one of the nurses had a child.So she recently given birth the practice.Opener was females.
While she'd just given birth Earth and at 5:00 the girl whom the practice, just trying to say.But I have to leave because I must get home by X time, you know, to feed my child and they just walked out but there was no thought for the girls, a nurse who was finishing, you know, two hours later and the inadvertent signal, you're sending is like he, my kid is really important their top priority.
That's what I have to leave on time, but actually your kids not quite so important so it doesn't matter so much, you know, and Let's go pick up on that.So yeah, I think we careful what you tell your staff subconsciously that make sense and that carries across the matter, what organization you're working.
That's a that's a tricky one, right?Because people often think that they the business owner or they veterinarian so therefore the team should follow them because of who they are.It's like almost like you're a veterinarian.You're an officer and to say I agree that is that is the case.
So what my thought is If you are a veterinarian, the think, as you are the officer.But exactly what he said there, it's just because you are a force of doesn't mean that they're going to follow.Right?No.Yeah.I mean I mean actually the point you make about it being a broadly similar structure is actually totally reasonable.
So if you if you look at been immense and actually it is quite High Arctic or you know and actually the structures not entirely dissimilar to our military or paramilitary structure.And you could argue the, you know, the Vets are kind of the Is in it, but again I think we've gone well past the generation where the Vets just said stuff and everyone else did it because they're the vet and actually, I don't know if you guys are aware of it, but there's that case it I can't remember.
I think it was a UK case.But over there it's got, he's quite famous know.And so it was a lady who went into a hospital.I think for routine surgery, I think I'm writing seeing and surgeons went to, I think that she arrests but essentially I can't under the exact internet.
But I think perhaps perhaps she arrested under anesthetic or something like that and essentially the searches are trying to intubate up resuscitation and basically one surgeon can't do it and then eventually the other surgeon gets involved and he can't do it.And a nurse comes in.And she's a cookie tray there, which is for an emergency tracheostomy the both completely, ignore her and just keep trying to be this woman and and the end she died, but her husband was an airline pilot and sort of ten years early.
They'd introduced this idea in the airline's where Any member of staff can challenge any other member of Staff in Theory without consequences.So if ultimately one of the cabins that runs and this is the engines on fire, you know, if you're the pilot you don't look at your look at the lights and say, well, there's no the Fire Light isn't on, so get back out there and start making tea.
You know, you pay attention as you should do.So the end result of that was trying chemistry, similar culture into medicine and any NHS whereby, even the most Junior member of Staff, who will hang on a minute?It now obviously there's a kind of there's a natural dynamic in the room that still prevents that happening to a certain extent and they don't you ever quite get rid of that.
But I'm certainly a, I certainly find personally I'm much more comfortable as like a fairly experienced.They am reasonably secure in my own decision-making.I find like the nurses challenging and stuff.I like something.I would have been really threatening early in my career.I know I'm completely comfortable with and I think you January in much better culture, if you can In that, in your practice.
I mean, a good examples.For example, one of the nurses comes to the says, right?There's an animal in the kennels recovering, I'm just not happy with it and you go through it, turns out it's completely fine.Well what should your reaction be?And it's very easy to be dismissive and give the impression you've wasted your time.But I try to make a point of always saying like Hey look it's okay but thank you for coming and getting me because if you do become dismissive well next time maybe they just don't come and get you, you know, they're on the line 49 51 and they just like you know what?
And I'm not going to go and get them and then you have a bad outcome.So I think you want to try and generate that culture where people can ask you questions and you know it's okay to see.I don't know but I'll find out.You know, it's all here not to know what I had.I think that is another thing actually highlighted earlier, you verify the confection ism is feeling like you have to have the answers and you know, Spacey in in the modern age that's totally unrealistic.
Even if we just look at a relatively narrow sort of skill, set and any medicine, no one knows.All of that, and especially if you're a mix practitioner, you know, your scope of practice is so enormous that you'd be foolish to think, you know what?Also, you know, I think.Yeah, I think you should be more comfortable with try to make good decisions but understanding you don't necessary.
Have all the information that makes sense like sheer.It's about to agree with you.And I like 100% agree with you everywhere there.Okay.Let go of the ego and, and it's part of being.A team leadership is not directorship, and just telling you people to do, it's about Top down up down, you know, servitude leadership would say it's almost leader follow.
I'm going to follow you because you are the person who has knows most about this patient.So I'm going to follow you, you being the leader in the recovery of this pit but also takes an incredible weight off your shoulder.Once you let go of the ego or the whatever it is, like this thing, which is like you have to know everything for me.
That was me years ago, write it once I realized that, I let that go this freedom I felt as freedom freedom to like go without it.Freedom for people to come up and dance freedom for me to go ask someone else.
Hey, what's the new thing with this management or this treatment here?Now, what is the dose of this drug?It's like there's the freedom to just be honest, vulnerable, whatever he is in.Now, I just don't feel the pressure to have to be the know-it-all.
Yeah, it's too hard.You are you make a really good point there.I think that's almost like is is a phrase in a consultation with an owner can kind of set you free to some extent is that It's all kids terrain and say listen, I don't know what's going on as long as you have a plan C.
We'll look, I don't know what's going on right now, but you know, let's run some blood.So let's do this and this and then you know what?I have those tests and two hours and then maybe have a better idea what's going on right now?I'm not sure.And I don't have ever had when I think about it now, I don't think I've ever had an owner have an issue with that.
I think if you turn around and say, hey, I don't know and I don't know what to do and then you sort of inner with urine trickling down your leg.I think that's tricky to come back from.Um, I think as long as you have a plan, then I think we'll still want a little, I'll go with you.I've got a line.I genuinely think there's opens the back door, so nicely in the consultation finish.
Almost every consult with the line in case I'm wrong.Yeah, and I think that it's like this because I think the clients sometimes, expect that, you know, everything, he always seemed innocent.So, confidently, tell me what's wrong in.This is going to fix it and then, if it doesn't work, then they're angry.
Then I'm like, oh, you fucking idiot.He said, all these things where it's just that one line in case I'm wrong this in.This is going to happen and then you just come back and then we'll have another thing yet.And I found that that minimized my complaints, or at least the attitude.
People coming back, massively, massively.It's just admitting that, you know, I am only human and I've got a solid idea and I've got a good plan but I could be wrong.Yeah, yes, funny.So guy years ago was a Tallow candle mentor of mine when a fairly first first routine practice.
And exactly the opposite idea.So he turned into one of the junior base and said, listen, you always know what's wrong.You always know if you really know what's wrong.So like whatever you say you give the owner answer your like this animal has got you know pick a disease but you tell them and yeah I mean that's just we look back in the now.
It's absolutely nuts but then it was a different time.I think people we're a bit more ready to accept that you were there.You knew.All if ultimately was about outcome, well, you know that was kind of a diverse pool cleaners God's Will and it's and everything was.
Everything was managed with dexa, clever.Dixit clever medicham this magical?Concoction of every made in one go?Yeah.You got like, five drugs to pick from and like three of them are basically the same.
Yeah, whatever.Just underline.What you both said that?It's interesting.You talked about that are Airline thing.I keep going to college or out of the to Jesus confusing the hell out of me.Gareth there.I read a thing about that.We have.Why that happened that that rule that anybody is allowed to question?
Is that there?Certain airlines from Seven cultures that had much I accident rate I get like Asian airlines.Yeah I think it's Korean Air or something had and every in here.Yeah.And then some I think the instant you thinking of was actually a South Korean Airline, he had a tradition of military guys going into civil aviation after they serve the time.
You don't question.Don't question authority.Yeah.And then you literally had planes crashing with people thinking sitting there going.Yeah, we are afraid, you'll die.We're out of I feel like I should probably say something but I can't question and then they just crash and everybody dies.Like, fuck, you should have spoken up to the instant.
I read about war is effectively the you know, this plane took off and the first officer he was like an external or something.He started to bank the aircraft and I don't even know what a false Horizon is.Its you see it.Is that going to basically it's a it's essentially it's a, it's a level.So basically that will always stay level but it's an instrument in the cockpit.
So you know where level is, you know what, your wings are in relation to the Effectively.But the the first officer hit or you're the captain his false Horizon was broken.So we just kept banking the aircraft.And of course, if you Bank, the wings far enough you lose left.
So basically we can't find kept banking lost left plowed into the ground, everyone onboard dead.And when they got the Black Box, by the realized that the first officer, his false Horizon was working.And he never said anything because it's just like, well, he's the captain.
So yeah.That mean that's a, that's clearly a very, very unhealthy culture.But what I want to say about that is I have seen this and I think it's, especially young victim, maybe it's a confidence thing where they walk into the practice and ago.I have to establish my authority.
I have to show people that I know my stuff specifically the nurses can take any shit.Yeah, this is I've got establish myself in this Clinic.That's the dumbest thing.You can do these are people with years of experience who want the same outcome as you to go and rub them up brother wrong way and don't think and they get really touchy when I manage my clinic.
I had bits could come and complain to me.Just, this is always giving me shit about questioning me and Mike, fantastic be grateful.Say thank goodness question.We more question--my question.We you?So like I'd service till I still said in a I have nurses same as almost every day at work.
Is that pickups?Stuff and you shoot them down once or twice or give them attitude.They will stop helping you and you will crash and burn like an airplane.Yeah.And that's when you get taken to the port, that's when mistakes happen.Things get missed in your names on it.
It's because you haven't listened to the team.That is inherently there for the best outcome of the pit.Yeah, right.That's my rant.Now, there's something you and your book, you're both quite a few hornets nests.And again, like we think we think very similarly, I've got quite a few.
There's a line that I underlined statement that gets said and Reggie clinics or on social media or invade land.If you don't have money to pay for your pets treatment you shouldn't have a pet.Yeah.Sure.What do you think about that one?I just completely agree.
That's a yeah let me just leave it about the other.It's a statement I find is well-intentioned I think you know I think People mean, the mean the right thing, you know, they mean that you should obviously take responsibility with animal you own and, you know, take some steps to make sure you have the resources to make sure has a healthy and happy life.
But I think it kind of feels to take account of the fact that we live in an imperfect world where even people the best of intentions or sometimes getting things really seriously wrong and it doesn't listen, make them bad people.They're sometimes with people who for whatever reason, there's a short of time, they're short Seize, their, you know, the maybe they got problems in their own life, but I think I like, I like to try to comfort others back to the most people are trying their best, and we've all seen those clients who, you know, if it was still allowed, you know, to them at the back and sort of, you know, give them a cleaning because, you know, that you just feel it.
There they're bad people.But I think that's incredibly rare, you know, I think as incredibly rare I think the van.I mean the I don't know about you but any the vast majority of cases that you see there in neglecting And if you start peeling back the layers of the onion you find that there's somebody's got an animal but they're older, they're on their own, maybe they don't have great vision, they don't have a lot of help.
They may not realize that the animals and pain because some of our perceptions of her animals and express those mechanisms are perhaps less well understood than you know they should be by I think you know by the vending profession and Deep by the general public.So I think I agree with the sentiment but I think that it's Be dismissive.
I think, for me, I think there is we live in a perfect world.People doing the best.And what do we mean by it as well?So, what do we mean by like, you know, you should be able to forward?It's very care because, okay, well, where's that stops?Oh, yeah, yeah exactly.That mean vaccinations and warming and so, on, plus a thousand dollars, does that mean five thousand dollars?
Does that mean if you can't afford to take it to Norfolk, Patrick in the UK, you know, and I have a fifth limb attached to it, then, you know, your You're somehow neglected.False of there's got to be.I think we have to think about that and to say, well what's it, what's acceptable, you know, to us and I think the one thing, perhaps too, and I think I do talk about this in the book actually is that, you know, euthanasia is one of those things that is a horrible, horrible thing to do, but it done correctly.
Effectively, the animals experience of it, as far as we know, a lot of you is that of a general anesthetic, the the simply don't work, we cover crop as sure hope.You're right.Didn't we not going to get to the afterlife?If we give the afterlife, this couple are angry dogs.
Angry, two hours, mate.Yeah sixteen-year-old Chihuahuas.Terrible teeth are coming up to you.Yeah, so well yeah, I mean, as you said earlier, you know, I could be wrong about that.I hope not.But with your people who, you know, you want your kids to prepare, because I think pet ownership is really valuable.
I think pets bring a lot of you know, they bring a lot of joy to this life people.Kids to their families, especially to all the people think there's good evidence though that some elderly people who have pets, now it's a higher quality of life, your for the level longer, there are healthier.So you want people to have that opportunity of pet ownership but obviously, you want the animals to be treaty well, as well.
So how we make that provision?I don't know.And I think we are, I don't know about what it's like in Australia.But sending the UK, I think we're slightly in danger of having a two-tier system with a bit of a gap in the middle because we're so Using the standards in general, in private practice and then you get the charity.
And then you kind of got this Gap in the Middle where people perhaps don't have a lot of money, but they want to feel they're doing the right thing for their pet.And I think that again, that's something I also mentioned the book as well as that.I think there is a big responsibility on vets to maybe be a little bit smarter about which interventions really make a difference and which ones don't.
And thus any conditions for which we, perhaps aren't sure about At that, and I don't think owners should feel terrible, terrible, guilt.If you can't afford the gold standard treatment, I think, I mean, whether you call a thousand dollars, whatever.But I think, if you tried the two or three most effective treatments, and you've made no progress and the animal is not, so he's not having a great life is euthanasia at that stage morally.
Reprehensible, I'm not sure, I'm not sure agree that it is.I don't know what you guys think, I'm yeah, I'm quite willing to be quite long to be proven wrong.But as a talk in there, there's one thing that I think about, and it's almost like, even the belief, the belief that, you know, that whole thing that, you know, clients you can't afford, it shouldn't have pets.
It's almost a burden that we throw on ourselves.It's something that we throw in as, as who gets angry about that.He get angry about that, right?Yeah.So we just adding shit to our planes.We really have to tackle stuff and then we get angry about a client who can't afford something, whoosh.
I couldn't afford something below the student, right?It's like you're fighting a battle that you can't win, like, you can win by accepting win by moving forward, and working with it, as opposed to fighting it, if you just let go of that entire thought, And okay, what resources do you have available for the condition?
That's at hand.This is what we can do, right?And just move on from there as opposed to then walking away and going, oh my God, these guys shouldn't own this pet because they're irresponsible.And now, the burden I have is put on need then somehow reduce my standards of care, take care of this pet because these guys couldn't afford.
It's like this extra layer of Burden, but who is putting it?On us.Yeah, that's good.I like that.It took me a while to realize but As veterinarians or people in the veteran profession, we're a very unique group, we really in a little bit of a bubble, what's normal standard of care or possible standard of care for us, especially enough.
First of all countries, it's, that's not normal.We're on the extreme end of what we can do.And there are people who want that, but it's okay.If they don't, I said it didn't grow up in a house with my parents would not have paid the bills that I On a daily basis.
I'm astounded.H fa people, most people will go, maybe it's my background or traveling we were talking before we started recording about your charity trip, to Sri Lanka.And I've talked about my work in lombok before and you see those in lombok, specifically the relationship between dogs and people.
It's almost an ancient relationship where dogs choose to come and live around people.They're not own the not cuddled, but they're valued, they have a value.Yeah, but it's a completely different level of what is a reasonable standard of care.
But it doesn't mean that they, you can't say I'm no good in lombok, should own beds, that's ridiculous.They'll tell you to get fucked.The say, I like well, they knew I had that when we went praying in a village and people didn't understand what we were doing because we had to Dad the dogs, they were so so wild.
They thought of killing the dogs.And we were chased out, because they care, they just don't care enough to do a ten thousand dollar, g2v surgery, it's something good.Yeah, but how many of their dogs get GTV?Yes, I'll be 0.I mean, I was struck by that in Sri Lanka and elsewhere.
I've been that it's a really interesting question actually is, who's actually got the moral High Ground.Is that, you know, you look at the first world or reading all these dogs have got profound issues, whether your Sharpies, where your skin problems and your entropion, whether it be your Bulldogs, can barely breathe, you know, the people of Alaskan Malamutes.
But then live in a tiny flat with it and then I wonder why it's got behavioral disorders and so on are we really are?We can we really preach morality to people who actually haven't baggage around with their dogs?If you go to, I mean you too much of the Middle East.If you go too much of Asians on, you'll see these dogs.
Who look?Broadly, look the same.Yeah, that's clearly the genetics of work.The other thing that struck me was a couple of places we've been.As you see these dogs who are in theory, you know, sort of neglected and, you know, they don't have a dr.Huber to sort of the motor in there.
They're in the bad moments but like, I just remember seeing this dog, I just remember, we were like going for a walk on the beach in the morning and basically just saw these dogs who is obviously just got up, just a bit of breakfast and you know, rather than to the Village onto the beach, into the ocean, they're playing with the kids are playing with other dogs and the, you know, like in terms of their psychology and their freedom to express natural behavior, the couldn't have a better life and yet we re quite critical or people because they are, well, you know, the, what they're going to do.
They're so they're not fleeing or not.Doing this or not doing that, but actually, you could send me the argue, the quality of life.Someone's dogs have is as good if not Superior to a lot of dogs in the western world who might enjoy really good medical care but they do not enjoy a lot of freedom to do the kind of things they want to do.
They're not they're not free to be dogs in many instances.So I wonder who really is got the moral High Ground there and I'm saying you're confident Is Us by any stretch.Yeah.Basically, get off your pistol, open your mind a little bit, it'll save yourself a lot.Great, when it comes to this is, yeah, 100%, yeah, judgment.
Again, it's judgment.Let go of judgment.Once you stop judging people.Once you stop deciding about right or wrong, its freedom, literally its freedom.I've an idea around this but it's super long.
Yeah, Way Beyond this conversation.I said you say, do I get Gareth wrote a book on this.I'm gonna, it's gonna be the same.I think we will have to talk more and bring me back to you know perhaps what we need in that space is that a popular venue book that you can pre-order in Amazon, that might or might not increase the understanding of the parent public.
Have you got time for our wrap-up questions.Get us.Are you podcast listener?Oh wow.I guess make a controversial but - you're gonna see that you walk in podcast?You just a mess.Follow me dude.Yeah, I think the I think the reason I liked his podcast is because regardless of where someone sits in the political Spectrum or anything like that, if you actually look at you years on, you'll have a world-class rock, climber, followed by a physicist, followed, by a soldier, followed by a politician.
You know, he will have on an enormous kind of like variety people.I think was really good about it is regardless of whether you agree or disagree with, what said, what you get to see is someone flesh out their ideas over several hours.And I think that's quite a good antidote to what you see in social media.
We He's very, very quick judgment and the inability of people to sit down and actually allowing someone to explain like, what do you really mean that?How do we solve this difficult problem?And for me, that's really interesting.I just, I like the variety pack the house on either the time that, you know, and he's a really, I mean, he's a really good interview.
He's naturally, curious.And I think he pulls out and really interesting stuff like people.So, yeah, I realize that's a little bit controversial and what else do?I like quite a joker.Willings podcast is a gyro or book.Those are fine.Yeah but her mess but I quite like military history so it makes sense.
That I would quite enjoy that and it's a bit of a in the commute in the car.It means I don't have to think about it like block cats for like 45 minutes in each Direction.So maybe it's just a psychological relief.I don't know that there's one can of whoop-ass.Okay, if you have, you feel a little bit soft.One day ever, listen to a bit of a joker Williams discipline, equals Freedom.
All right, one reasons rather conference you Write a new book and it's a short book and it's one message to all the way to new grounds of the world.What is your one paragraph book?One paragraph?I thought you're going to say like, you know, minute or two minute or two.I'd refer you back to the scientific statement and my boobs will basically, you know, consider that you might be wrong.
That's probably.I mean, actually, to be honest that is science, isn't it?It's just like the accepting the possibility, you might be wrong and working to make sure that you're as right, as you possibly can be.And I think actually that takes a lot.I think a big burden off.I won't if you understand it your own, I mean let's be honest.You're almost inevitably wrong to some degree regardless.
So yeah, I think I think accepting that and having humility to understand that you probably don't have all the facts but they don't have all the data and that all you can do is the best with what you've got right now.I think is really important and I think that takes a bit of a burden of us because Romans always doing her best.
You know, given what we know and that's Freedom, he said, take the burden off, comes the freedom.I'm Gonna Let You Go.There was so good to catch up, gas will not do.Do it again.Anyway, we'll see a show notes and share links to the book.Go by the book.It's really good.The first chapter about you chasing a ball around with the gun and the bull chasing you around, trying to kill you.
It's forgetting lyrics.Are you had me in stitches in bed at night?It's funny in retrospect.You want to see absolute pleasure.Speaking to you, both really enjoyed it and yeah we should definitely pick up some other time.I'm sure we've got plenty more to talk about every teenager or otherwise in the probably next time you visit Australia.
Sure.Yeah, that Quiet.How goal here at the vet?Bill is to have conversations like the one you just listen to will give you inspiration and fresh ideas on how to create a thriving and happy career and life as event.
You'll know, by now that our focus is on the life skills that we need to navigate this challenging and rewarding profession about for the something that I've realized over the last few years of exploring ways to increase enjoyment of the drug.That is that the Vets who are confident in their skills and knowledge are, as a whole more satisfied with their careers, which makes sense.
You feel Rusty or uncertain your knowledge, it's very easy for those imposter feelings to sneak in, I don't know enough, am I good enough?Conversely, we know that feelings of growth and Mastery as some of the greatest predictors of a happy career, which is why we created debate Bob clinical podcast, three, highly practical episodes every week conversations, not lectures.
But world-class specialist tips, updates real insights not textbook Theory show tonight.To listen to on your drive, to work, because enough content to ensure that you'll be a little bit better at your job than you were before you listen.Join us on our journey to better by trying out, our free two week trial at the be he in the super cast that take

Dr Gareth Steel