May 18, 2019

# 5: Mental health masterclass. Dr Nadine Hamilton

# 5: Mental health masterclass. Dr Nadine Hamilton
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Season 1

Dr Nadine Hamilton is a psychologist, but she’s not just your everyday psychologist - she’s OUR psychologist. After nearly 35 years of experience in a variety of industries she is now a leading voice and helping hand for the veterinary profession. Through her practice, Positive Psych Solutions, she works exclusively with vets, helping them to be the best they can be for their patients and themselves.

However, Nadine was not satisfied with small scale solutions: her recently published book “Learning To Cope With Stress And Burnout As A Veterinarian’ is already proving very useful for many in the profession, and will undoubtedly become a vital mental health resource for vets around the world.

Dr Hamilton is also the founder of the “Love Your Pet, Love Your Vet’ charity, which aims to raise community awareness of the shadow side to the veterinary profession, as well as reducing stigma for those working in the industry about seeking help when they need it. Her work with the charity has brought some of the challenges that vets face to the attention of the general public through some very successful media exposure.

As can be expected from someone with Nadine’s background, our discussion with her provides some fantastic insight into the state of mental health in our profession, with some very practical advice on building and maintaining resilience, and on how to speak up and find help when you are going through tough times.

Please enjoy this conversation with one of the leading minds in veterinary mental health today - Dr Nadine Hamilton.

I some good feedback at Congress from occasional people about the podcast.Okay what they say?I did have some people's he's be about I've photo they said two people say it looks like we're holding hands.I said, yes, it's because we are that's because we like you you should probably say that an ex.
I just wanted to clarify something and it's podcast that people we've had some comments inquiring whether or not she would and I holding hands and you know, look we could made so we do a lot of fact I did record that it And that what you just said today, I'm going to put it in everything good evening.
Ladies and gentlemen, this is Gerardo Poli. and this sorry one of the best bits of advice I've ever received was to find good mentors and to learn from them trusted people who have already done what you're trying to do.
Now.I've been fortunate throughout my career to have some fantastic mentors to help guide me, but I realize that they'd be hard to find and also hard to commit the time to 1.This is why we've gathered some of the best Minds from the vet new world and squeeze them for their wisdom so that you don't have to learn the hard way.
With the help of our guests, we flipped the veterinary profession on its back and explore its soft underbelly to find the tips tools and inspiration that you'll need to build the career that you've always wanted.I'm Gerardo Poli.I'm Hubert him strapped and this is the vent valve.Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of the vet Vault just to clarify something.
When you start listening to this next episode Gerardo is going to introduce the show as the art of archery sides.You're not listening to the wrong part cast.That was our initial working title before we settled on the vet felt so that that explains that little bit there you put my foot down and I have set Hubert pulverize you I was Vito value vetoed if anybody feels very strongly that we should change the title back.
Out of my you that you don't need to reply said that back.It's gonna go on deaf ears and blind eyes.All right, buddy.Here we have today today.We have dr.Nadine Hamilton.Tell us about it, please Dorado.I will tell you about her so she's a psychologist, but she's more than just a normal psychologist.
She is our psychologist after 35 years of experience in a variety of professions and industries.She's now a leading voice in helping hand for the vinegar.Session through her practice positive psych Solutions.She works exclusively with vets helping them to be the best.
They can be for themselves and their patients and clients, but their deed was not satisfied with small scale Solutions.She had to write a book about it her recently published book learning to cope with stress and burnout as a veterinarian is already proving very useful for many of us in the profession and it will undoubtedly become a vital Mental Health Resource for vets around the world.
And just to clarify when we recorded this episode at the book wasn't out yet.So we talk about when it when will it come out it is out.It is officially out and available and I've put a link for where you can find the book in the in the show notes.It's great book and I recommend everyone read it.
Dr. Nadine was also the founder of love your pet.Love your vet charity, which aims to raise Community awareness of the Shadow side of the veterinary profession as well as reducing stigma.For those working in the profession about seeking help when they need it.
Her work has brought some of the challenges we face to the attention of the general public through some very successful media exposure and TV engagements to as can be expected from someone with Nadine's background discussion with her provide some fantastic insight into the state of mental health in the in a profession with some very practical advice on building and maintaining resilience and how to Speak up and find help when you are going through some tough times.
So please enjoy this conversation with one of the leading Minds in veteran mental health today.Dr. Nadine Hamilton other everyone and thank you for joining us again on this podcast of the art of veterinary science.And today.We have a special guest by the name of Nadine Hamilton and the dean Hamilton is not a veterinarian actually, but is a good friend of mine, and I think she has a lot of knowledge in a powerful message.
She comes from the background of being a psychologist and especially in the world of specializing in the world of positive psychology, which I believe is actually a really inspiring but also I suppose the fact that it has positive in it really actually resonates with me and a lot of the tips and how many tips would actually the strategies more powerful than tips with the strategies that are involved in this particular field of psychology.
I think are quite powerful and I'm really happy to have medini your joy.Join us tonight and and humid as well.Of course going to say it.It's I'm still yeah.Yeah, good evening everybody.Thank you for joining us and thank you lady in for joining us past your bedtime.
Apparently.Yeah.Yeah, I'm getting old now Tom.I've got my copy there to keep me awake.Oh right sleep.All righty.I'm going to jump in you guys know each other.
Well, whereas I don't I've never actually met.I didn't but I've been researching and reading through your work and three resources and it's really valuable stuff but to try and get to know you a little bit better.I wait three or about me page and and trying to read about what motivates you and what got you into this.
It seems from that description that at some stage you seem to be lost as to as to what to do with your life.And what you're calling was.I just want to know why psychology and then with psychology why Weakly veterinary science so pretty much from as early as I can.
Remember.I think like a lot of vets.I always wanted to work with animals and I always thought I'm going to grow up and I'm going to be a vet.It's what I wanted to do.Then I had an experience with my first pet.They owned was a little guinea pig who I took to be with my baby took him to the father of a school friend of mine who was our local vet and I remember sitting in the waiting room and King.
I can't do this.I wouldn't be able to operate on an animal because I knew I was way too crazy and I thought I couldn't ever put one sleep.So even then I sort of thought there's got to be something around putting them to sleep.That's going to be quite stressful.You know, for a lot of people it would be for me and then I was obviously I'll probably had undiagnosed add I think going through high school was far too interested in talking and chatting and I have the report cards to actually validate that I failed every Everything so I even though English I grew up in New Zealand.
So I failed my school certificate year, which is the equivalent of year 10.So every exam was a flunk so my parents said well if you can go out and find your job will let you leave school.If not, you have to go and repeat that year, which the thought of that horrified me so off I went and I hated school absolutely hated.
It didn't sort of I couldn't learn because I think I had a different learning style.And again, it was that's how I resolved it was.Three talking and distraction.So then I remember, you know going to off to my first job and thinking I'm never going to go to university because I'm not smart enough and I failed school.
So I sort of thought I'm not really going to be able to do anything significant which kind of upset me to some point, but then I was always drawn to the same area in the library, which is always the self-help section the psychology section.So I knew there was something with that and even as I sort of progress Just threw my career which was largely in an academic sense.
Sorry in a administrative sense.I knew that the I still haven't found what it was that I wanted to do and I talked to all my boss is saying I need to study something but I don't know what and one day.I was reading a book that was written by a psychologist who I went.That's what I want to do.
Like I knew I loved to help people but I still really wanted something to do with animals, even though I knew I wouldn't have what it takes to be a vet.In the crazy side of things, you know, and I certainly don't consider myself an intelligent enough to be able to get through that and do the stuff that you guys have to do.
So I sort of said yeah, this might be something so I decided you know what I'm going to apply to UNI and if I get accepted I get accepted and I had to write an essay as part of the application process because I was such a high school dropout.I didn't even know what an essay was so had to bring my mom and go mum, what's an essay because I got the right one.
Yeah, that's that's how much I I'm walking around at school.So anyway, long story short.I got accepted as a mature age student.So I studied by distance education and around that same time.One of my cousin's Andrew committed suicide back in the UK.
And that was when I said, okay, I have to do something and suicide prevention.So I spoke to my university lecturers professors and they said look you change your mind by the time you graduate and I did I sort of got the focus of all psychology and working in the vocational aspect of it, but I still didn't feel that I'd found my calling even though I was helping people I worked in workers comp and occupational rehab, you know, I did a lot of the training stuff which I absolutely loved but I still hadn't found what it was I wanted to do and that was when I was at the local vets and a Locum there we got putting and she was the one that actually told me about the really high suicide rate which like a lot of people I was completely shocked and that was when I said, Now I know what I have to do.
Now.I know we have to stop this and I feel nervous has gone full circle.I completed my doctoral research in 2016 specifically into the well-being and the burnout in the suicide.So I really feel like I've gone full circle because even though obviously I'm not a vet.
I'm helping the people that help animals.So I'm working in suicide prevention to Help the Animals, I guess in a roundabout way by helping those that So I know that was a really long story but it is a bit of a story about the Journey of how it got there.
So and I think like to me it's sort of you know for people who doubt themselves and I know we all go through that about I'm never going to get through uni, and how am I going to pass my exams?I just look back and think you know for 15 year old high school dropout can do it.
Anyone can do it.Yeah.I love the fact that that you didn't know what an essay was and I Know It And next year you'll put your books being released to yeah from what is an essay to Almond, maybe I should write the book on that you stories quite inspiring the dean computer because when I was listening to you say or what listen to you tell that story there's various levels there, you know, like you Rose from adversity, you know, you - it was about growth and learning and facing challenges and and you you found your purpose or you found your why?
I know that's been your major driver now and it's the thing that's actually helped you overcome the challenges about where we're gonna go next what I'm going to do, you know, your purpose now is helping the people who can help pets, right.So there was really focusing on the things that you could control as well and the actions that you could take without feeling helpless.
So it's blue ultimately you're in there.There's heaps of just I don't know like just action and also, Just really focusing on the things that you can do yourself.Yes because it was quite a powerful story.Thank you for sharing that.Okay.Thank you.
You work exclusively with with veterinarians is that that's right.Yeah within the industry now.Yep, and I'm aware of your charity that that I've seen when we can that we can address that later.But then you do clinical work with veterinarians as well.Yeah.Yeah, it's okay and how are you finding working in the the veteran industry.
I do have a receptive audience.I've found there's been a fair bit of resistance, which I think when I've actually talked to vets and in our committee meetings that we have like addressing those kind of factors and I think there's so many things that are coming into that as to why vets in particular.
I think the vet nurses are a little bit more vocal but that's in particular why there is such resistance there and you know, I don't know if you want to go into that now.A bit later on but I've I've seen through the love your pet.Love your vet campaign and charity that more and more people are opening up which is awesome.
And that's exactly what we wanted to happen.Because now I think it's like people have got a voice but I think part of that is reducing the stigma around talking to a psychologist, you know, reducing that stigma around mental health and mental illness because there's so many perceptions out there that people think that you're weak if you seek help and people All our think you can't cope and you're you're less than perfect.
If you can't do everything on your own which is a load of rubbish, but that's what the perceptions can be because you know as some of my vet friends and colleagues have said you're not used to failure.Yeah, you think about everything that you've got a community of perfectionist?
Yes, you don't accept and I say that in the most respectful way but money is that's part of that the barriers there and I think what I'm saying People are sort of getting more open to reaching out and having that support which is really good because that's what we want.
You know, I'm not here to judge anybody.I'm here to help you know and do that and it's confidential, you know, no one knows unless it's a duty of care, you know life and death situation or subpoena.It's confidential, you know, the beauty of it is we can do things online.Now, we're you know, that that's been part of the fear as well.
What if someone sees me going into the psychologist office and they'll think I'm not coping You know again, it's all worrying about what other people are going to think which is you know, a big part of what a lot of us have dealt in knowledge in me.You'd like to think that the more commonplace it becomes the easier.
It will become for everybody.Absolutely and a minute.I you know what when I've got a toothache I go to the dentist absolutely token.If I'm not coping like there's somebody I actually personally found it quite encouraging just the other day.I am I was listening to a totally different podcast that was interviewing Noel Fitzpatrick.
So that the super vet the behind Nick fair not to me.That's the I think to most vets.That's the epitome of success and flip and coping and he said on the podcast major mental health issues.Yep.It's been suicidal.He struggles with clients criticizing him ask what if that if man if he he can admit it then anybody can it's absolutely and that's what we need.
It's sort of like you think we have come a long way in raising awareness around mental health, you know, particularly when some of the celebrities get out there and they start talkin about it that we start. to create that awareness but we've still got a long way to go and I don't think there's really been any awareness of it in this industry because people don't realize that it is so prominent in this in this industry in this profession because again ever goes I thought it was dentists or you know, I thought it was another profession and you know the common things when when I talk to people who aren't aware, you know, like oh, well what have you got to be stressed about, you know, the the again the perception which we address in the campaign and And we know that that's not the reality but those perceptions you just playing with cute animals all day.
That's your dream job, right and you get paid really well for it and all those kind of things that just continually crop up that we're trying to address, you know, and set the record straight.So Other things unique to Visionaries or the veterinary industry that there are unique stressors or unique factors to to mental health issues from from what you've done.
The researchers can say, yeah, you've got the facts.Yeah.So yeah, well the research predominantly when I started my research, it was actually going to be on the phenomenology of euthanasia because everything that I was reading was saying, oh it's because of euthanasia that vets have such a high suicide rate and the true AMA associated with that I'm like, okay.
Yeah, you know as I said that one of the reasons I didn't pursue it, even though I probably could do it now in all reality.I don't think I could do the surgeries but you know the as I sort of went in the research we started looking about you didn't particularly vets in rural areas.
I think things have changed now that we do have especially in you know, more City areas.We've got the after-hours clinic so there isn't the need for the Vets to be on call again in rural.Areas of got a fine that's on call 24/7.I stood that strong.You cannot do that.
You can't be in a practice all day and then be on call all night.It's just you can't and I'm surprised at the vet Board of making them do it.I'm so that's just so wrong.I just it's just right like oh, how can you hear not getting any sleep, but how can you actually function in and how dangerous is that?
If you're just about asleep and you're out there on the roads, you know, you're not only endangering.Under to yourself, but other people however the bit and again the mental health the absolutely you think you just died you not just that you're bloody depressed because you tired yeah.Yeah exactly that the sleep deprivation and you know, we know what negative effects that has on the health, but as I was sort of looking into all of that and I interviewed that's one on one as well and sort of said look this is these are all the things that the research says a stressful to you.
Ray disagree or want to add anything to it.And so what came out of it or like with my research was?Yep, absolutely performing euthanasia was one of the stressful things but not the most stressful things.So some vets didn't straighten I even talk to her but I think even Dorado he I like his philosophy on it.
Okay.It's a it's a form of treatment.It's a treatment option which I like that philosophy and I think that's that's a really good way to look at it, but said that was one factor.That I think the two biggest ones that I would see now having worked more in the industry are dealing with difficult clients copying that abuse I mean in some of the stuff, I mean, I've seen it on our page.
We don't get a lot because I nip it in the bud or I'll just delete and band the people but I've just seen the disgusting comments that are on there that are you know, I were one comment.I think it was on Royal cannons page when we started the campaign about before we had the videos.
We had some still photos, you know a little photo.Caption I think was one was about where you aware that to have one of the highest rates of suicide at this one of those and someone had commented on theirs.Oh, well, if they weren't so damn expensive, they wouldn't be killing themselves.And I'm just like that is disgusting and I think all but one person there were a few negative comments about oh, they're so expensive and are there only in it for the money and that's like, oh my God, like I get frustrated because I want to just reach down ago, but at the but I'm not the one even In dealing with it and that's what's even more expect.
Like you guys are copying this day in day out.It's easy for me to be able to go.I'll just delete that comment and ban it but I'm not actually technically there were a lot of assuming they were vet nurses because they were a lot more vocal than what a lot of the Vets tended to be and they were getting in there and just sticking it to these people and you know, I'm not about conflict, but I have to admit I do like it when people will stand up for themselves and just and say it how it is.
Unlike thank you because I have to keep things respectful and professional obviously, you know, there's ways of saying things and you know, some people just want to get into an argument.It's a simple as that you can see that sort of going yo Carl got a nip this in the bud here, but those kind of comments, you know, the dealing with difficult comments the financial issues.
So not only the financial discussions with customers about the costs of treatment but also for those who are owning and operating a practice, you know, the running costs associated with that compassion fatigue with another one and unrealistic expectations.
So the unrealistic expectations that clients your family their Community whoever on you, you know that well you fixed my my dog 10 years ago.Why can't you fix him now?But also the unrealistic expectations you place on yourself.
I should be able to do this.I have to do this.I have to be perfect all the time and one of my clients she said that should all we have brilliant clients and our practice but what she struggles with is if a client says to her thank you so much.
You've just done an amazing job, she'll panic because then she thinks we're how am I going to do better than that next time and I just said you know that Have you done the best that you could do she said of course, I didn't I said well, how can you do better than that next time?
You know, like if you didn't give a hundred percent of gun?Yeah probably could have run this test or done this but I couldn't be bothered.Yeah, but not when you've given it everything.Yeah, but it's a what a what a laugh at that but it actually I know what I cry at the same time because I was Because you'd really love you because I felt so much pressure from that because exactly that you go.
I'll do you think I'm great but you don't really human I'm going to stuff up eventually stick with me long enough to make a mistake.So I think you should try do anything to add and I was just gonna say that, you know, appreciate the work that you've done on behalf of the bitten profession like internationally as well and know that your campaign the that you led love your pet.
Love you bet.It has has gained its National traction and has really brought the the topic of mental health to the Forefront of people's minds again, but I think also as you said reducing the stigma is is the goal really, isn't it?
Definitely I'm about hey, this is the tips or tricks or strategies right?It's actually look it's okay and exactly everyone out there has gone through something and I still personally and I think I shared with This with you before Nadine when after graduated the second year after I graduated a partner my my long-term partner and I separated and we went through a phase where I wanted to keep the house the be we saved and sort of sort of renovated together.
So there's quite a lot of of sort of emotional attachment to the house and to keep the house.I rented at every room in it.And then at the end I had 50 bucks per week. week so I couldn't even really afford to eat or pay bills or anything and I went through a phase there where I had suicidal thoughts and I had just really was probably the most depressed of ever had all probably the most probably the time I was actually really depressed like in terms of depression isn't real and I reached out and reached out to our the APA straight Veterinary Association and And and sought help and the person of the line did make a significant difference and totally turned my thought process around and I started to take action and control and responsibility for my situation really and once I then felt responsible for my situation on you, then actually got always anyone to change it.
So and that that was my how would you say personal experience with with I suppose?The closest I've been to to suicidal thoughts or a mental health problem or significance for me, but reaching out actually was something that I did.
Actually, I did in private and at and I did purely because I really had nowhere else to go but I didn't talk to anyone else around it.Well about it.So exactly which can be that that stigma or the shame, you know feeling or what are people going to think of me.
If I do this, you know, one of the things that I see when were talking before about the resistance is, you know, the Imposter syndrome, which is really common.In a lot of professions where you feel like you're an imposter that I'm not good enough to be here particularly with new and recent grads.
I'm getting out there and then you'll you know thrown into the real world and you haven't got the backup of your lecturers and those kind of people around you to support you that you have this feeling that well if I'm if I do make a mistake and everyone's going to know that I'm a fraud and that I'm an imposter and I'm really not that good enough.
And so that's why we keep covering up and we don't want to talk about it.Don't say anything because what will people think you know, again, it's coming down to other people's perceptions of ourselves.And you know, I often say it to my clients and I'm so I feel media, you know whose opinion should matter the most it shouldn't be everyone else as it should be our own opinion should be the most important but we do worry about what other people think because you know, we all want people to like us but the reality is people are going to make up their own minds about you no matter what you do or what you say, you know, we're very judgmental I think as a society but We tend to be judgmental because either we're putting the focus on everyone else because we don't want to look within and accept responsibility for what's going on with us or we don't know how to deal with that.
Now, we don't know how to work through those issues which I think Gerardo what what you say, you know, my hat goes off to you for reaching out for recognizing that you needed help and for doing something and it's not an easy journey to take, you know, once you're already down that path once the Suicidal Thoughts start to kick in you know, Things are pretty serious at that level.
So to be able to turn that back around but to swallow your pride or disregard what other people that whatever it took to get you to do that, you know show that you care which you know comes into that self-care and you value yourself enough to go.
Hey, I choose life over this, you know, and it's like when you're treating an animal there's no magic pill.There's no magic cure.If you're determined to do it.Then you're more likely to get a really positive outcome, you know, and Taking that step and I think the more we talk about it particularly, you know Gerardo you're a really well-respected and I've got a massive following and everything and you are a mentor to a lot of other vets as well as a lot of the vet nurses as well and other Veterinary professionals out there that I think by you sharing your story can really help other people because a lot of people might not realize that and then if they go, oh my gosh Gerardo went through this far out.
I'm not alone.I'm not the only person struggling with and there's nothing wrong with me.Absolutely.Absolutely.Yeah, it is it is just that it is just as I said, it's just like having a toothache or a or another. exactly exactly.
I mean like you said we don't think twice about if I have to go to the dentist or if we've heard our hand we go to the doctor.Why should we be so concerned when it's our mind.I'm what's going on upstairs.It shouldn't be any different.It's still part of our house.It's just a mental health and other physical health.
It's so important because so many questions that jump up from that little conversation from what Jurado was telling as well.And then from I listen to another Guys that you were guests on I'm dr.Dave Nichols broadcast when you were with the objective done John Dooley, which is worthwhile looking up for anybody who's listening is a great great podcasts.
So dr.John he was very close to Suicide as well but few things from that podcast struck me and that frightened me to tell you the truth with and of the one thing was that how he was fine.He was there was nothing wrong with him had no mental health issues.
And then he said, Within he's not sure if it was a day or two days.He was at the point of deciding its there's only one way out that I just went because it gives I'm we've been fortunate that.I haven't had any major draw them home and say you think I'm fine.I'm not at risk and then you hear a story like that and you go - right exactly and then sun is shining in the next day to not exactly and what that made me as opposed to a listen to it and I went that's what well, how do you address this?
What do you do about it?How do you prevent it?I mean listening to you Joe.A saying well, you had somebody to reach out to because that took made me made me think what would I do?What would be my path?Where what would be my my net my safety net if I ever find myself and then it may be a worthwhile thing to have a to have a plan to have a say.
Well if I ever feel like this what am I going to do?Exactly?Have you got any Jedi has mentioned the a VA but how do you set up a network like that?Why does it good support network look like well, it's having that's social support and having that network is one of the protective factors, you know for your psychological well-being and it's not about having quantity over quality.
It's about quality over quantity and knowing that you've got some person at least one person that you could turn to it might not be your partner might not be your family.It could be your next door neighbor.It could be a work colleague.It could be a therapist but knowing that there's somebody that's got your back that if you ring up at two o'clock in the morning guy.
Hey, I can't do this.Really struggling you've got someone you can talk to so having that support network is absolutely crucial.And again, it might just be a therapist number.It might be the lifeline number two, just get you through the night until you can go and see the therapist or bone see your doctor or you know, whoever your support person is but having as you said, you know a plan there to look after yourself.
So what would I do if I'm in this situation now and having those those numbers handy whether it's you know, beyond blue or its Lifeline or the GP or the Emergency Care at the local hospital whoever it is having that that support their but ideally we don't want to let it get to that point.
Yeah, we want to be proactive rather than reactive and I think you know, as you said there when we're talking about John's in his podcast, how is it literally it was like one day I woke up and I know he uses expletives.That was nearly what we were going to call it how the you know, what did I get here?
And You know and I just think that that was such a powerful thing to say because I mean he had a lot of stressors over the years but there's there's a saying, you know the body Whispers before it shouts and I think it's so true that we just we keep home and I could take a it's I'm just having a bad day, you know, and then that bad day turns into two bad days and when I it so I it's just a bad week.
Maybe it's a full moon and everyone's gone Bonkers.I don't know, you know.Oh, you know, I don't know what it might be going on said next week will be better.You know, I just need a A holiday, I just need a break and that may be true.But sometimes you know that tomorrow whether good day is going to happen never eventuates, you know, but we tend not to acknowledge it again because we might be fearful we might have that shame or the embarrassment or the Imposter syndrome could be kicking in what will other people think you know, like well I should be able to deal with this and I think one of the things that I've noticed and it's a bit like the majority of helping professions in my opinion is We so used to people coming to us for the answer's.
No like oh, well, I'm struggling with this.What do I do or you know, they're my case.It would be them personally or someone in their family for you, you know, when my my pets presented with these symptoms, what do we do where you're sort of making that diagnosis and then you're also prescribing the treatment and then going through with that so you're expected to have the answers.
And so when it comes to our self, we sort of think well I should be able to deal with this myself, you know, and I think That's the reality and I've sort of tried to put myself in the head space of a vet to think.Why is it so hard to reach out and you know say hey I'm not coping and you know, that was one of the things that I thought of and I thought it's hard for any of us.
I think when we're used to being the professional that people come to to admit we haven't got all the answers or we can't do this on our own and I think that's a sign of strength, you know vulnerability is actually a sign of strength to be able to come out there and say hey, I'm not coping I'm going to put Vulnerability on the line.
I'm not coping now and I actually see that as a sign of strength because I admire people who say I'm not doing this.I can't cope.I can't cope on my own.So what do I need?I need I need help and I'm reaching out.You mentioned we discussed things about reducing stigma and then we talked about building a support network.
That's really what kind of advice would you have for someone or to people our audience here about preparing yourself for challenges, like give any tips or advice around sort of building resiliency and preparing yourself?And and yeah, absolutely I think Having that kind of a resilient lifestyle as well as taking proactive steps of you know, if you're going to feel vulnerable being in a workplace when you have to perform a certain procedure preparing yourself as best you can for that, you know, which is coming into some of the general like Stress Management situations identifying your stressors identifying those things that are going to get you stressed or worked up or feeling anxious or you know, whatever unhealthy or negative effect.
It might be having.That you can take a proactive step towards addressing it.So if you know this is going to get you stressed out.Well, what can I do to be able to cope with it rather than avoiding it and hoping it's just going to go away because it'll probably come back with a vengeance or it won't go away and then you're faced in that situation.
And then you feeling overwhelmed because you don't know how to cope with it.So I think being prepared for that but also trying to do, you know, really bringing in those self-care aspects, which I know we've talked about but looking after ourselves.You know, whether that consists of you know, if you're into meditation, which doesn't have to revolve around just sitting there and chanting, you know, you can medicate meditate by being mindful just doing some quiet breathing and even if you're closing your eyes and just being mindful around, you know, what are all the noises you can hear around you what are the things you can see, you know or describing in detail something that you can see whether it's a tree outside and then really focusing on all the aspects of that tree.
No because when you really Engrossed in that and being mindful towards it.You're not worrying about everything else that's going on because we tend to buy into these things and then we catastrophize over them which gets us anxious about the future or we ruminate over them.
I should have done this.I should have done that.If only I've done this and we keep going over and over them because we think if we worry about them enough, it will give us a different resolution or it will give us the answer and it doesn't if it's something that's done.It's out of our control.We can't go back and change.
It but if we keep ruminating over it, it's just going to get as more and more depressed and worked up or if we're catastrophizing about something that hasn't happened yet.It may not even eventuate.It's like Ting an oh my gosh tomorrow we're going to have this horrendous procedure in and you're so worked up and you know, you're feeling really stressed and you're irritable and flustered and you haven't slept and then that patient might cancel, you know, you're like I've just got worked up for nothing.
You know, it's I think really maintaining again.From a psychological perspective but having that healthy healthy mind healthy body, you know, so whether it's having a really healthy diet, you know not having things and particularly.
I know alcohol is quite a prevalent coping resource or I am a stress reliever which again, I'm not sort of condoning either way except to say, you know alcohol is a depressant.So if you're already feeling somewhat depressed it can exist.
Masturbate that if you're on anti-depressant medication the alcohol can magnify what's going on.So it's really just being mindful of that and a lot of people will drink because they think it's going to help them get to sleep and it might help them get to sleep initially but chances are you're not going to have a really good quality sleep because of the nature of what's going on and I say again that's where you know, the mindfulness comes in and a lot of the psychological strategies that we use to be able to recognize that, you know if I have this bottle of Fine, how's it going to affect me in the long run, you know will I be glad that I drink this bottle of wine in the morning when I'm dealing with the consequences or not.
And when you're mindful you're able to nip it in the bud there and then even though you think you're this wines really looking good over a glass of water.But in the long run, I know that water is going to be better for me in the long run and it's a long long term consequences.We have to deal with not a short-term things that are going on.
So, you know really thinking about healthy diet, you know exercising, you know, We all know exercise releases endorphins all those happy chemicals as well really good stress reliever, you know, I see see a lot of vets.They're sharing post on social media at the gym and stuff like that or you know got a really good punching bag or something where you're able to really just let it out and get it out.
And that's doing it in a healthy way, you know rather than sitting there and you know just down another bottle of wine or something.That's really not healthy in the long run because you don't want Add that guilt of doing that if you're going to feel guilty about it afterwards, you don't want to add that on top of what you're already dealing with because it'll just exacerbate it, you know, and again, yeah those General self-care things so finding an exercise that works for you, you know that whether it's you know walking whether it's going to the gym whether it's bike riding swimming, you know, even some light gardening probably not In the Heat of the Moment that we copy.
Did you run over?But you know those kind of activities that you can do that you're going to find relaxing and relaxation isn't all about just sitting there with your eyes closed doing nothing.We're like Sation is about finding an activity that is going to get you relaxed.
And for some people that is going to the gym or surfing or you know going for a walk or whatever.It could be.Just just going back over.So you covered identifying your stresses talked about mindfulness healthy diet alcohol exercise and relaxation.
Mindfulness is is it the practice of being focused on the present present?Yes.Yes.So the here and now you know because as we were just saying the past is gone, the future hasn't happened yet.So that's still imaginary.
We can only really focused in the present moment the here and now it was visibly said the past is Regret in the future is anxiety or something.Yes, when we think about the past and we go and we're ruminating it tends to lead to depression because I can't change that shouldn't have done it.
And then when we start worrying and catastrophizing about the future, we start to get really anxious, you know, that's when all those what ifs and I should have and I must do it all those things where we tend think that there's a rule attached to it, you know shoulds must and have to who sent a generally have a feeling that at least what I do when I tackle when I feel anxious about something my first instinct is to avoid and procrastinate so it's like I should appear here in Tanana don't want to do that.
Yeah, what YouTube video but what I found and is that moving towards it is a lot more powerful for me.Absolutely.The thing that I stress about actually taking action towards even small one little step.
It's like getting writing it out getting it on paper or something or making that phone call causes such a relief and I'll such a reduction in the anxiety that actually Surprisingly moving towards something is actually such a powerful thing.
Don't know what your thoughts were around that absolutely and it's one of the time management strategies that I talked about is having a procrastination list because quite often the things that we're procrastinating about really aren't as bad as what we think are going to be, you know, and I've done that and I think it's really good to have a procrastination list and then at the end of the each day write a list of all the things that you want to to get done the following day because then when you get to work, whether it's in the evening, you know for doing night shifts or whether it's a daytime whatever your structure is when you get into that workplace if we're talking work-related, you know where to start because it's so easy and I'm guilty of it as well.
If I've got in a desk full of stuff that I've got to get through and I have no structure around it.I'm going to fluff around, you know, and it's like I'll just quickly check my emails and I'll have to see what's going on on Facebook and you know, So easy to procrastinate because it's like I've got a tackle all of this or I've got this massive report to right and I really can't be bothered doing it or it's going to take a lot of time and effort and I don't feel like I've got the energy to do that.
But then once you actually get started with it, as you said it there's that sense of accomplishment or that sense of achievement.It's sort of like I feel relieved because now I haven't got this hanging over my head and what I personally find is it actually motivates me to do more so I get through You know if I've got a procrastination list, okay, these all the things I have to tackle breaking them down into smaller objectives.
You know, I've got a filing cabinet that needs sorting through the thought of clearing out that whole filing cabinet is quite overwhelming because it's like oh gosh, how long is that going to take me?But if I set small tasks, you know on my procrastination list to do 15 minutes a day.Yeah, it might take me longer.
But at least I'm going to get a little bit of a sense of accomplishment each day because I'm checking something off my procrastination.List, but one time into a time like this really isn't that bad and then I might do more.I think it's very applicable the so conversation directly to day-to-day Brittany practice because they are those things that you don't want to do.
There's that surgery that you said you're going to do but it's scaring you but sword is that client?You don't want to call and you avoid it and you avoid it and it ruins your whole bloody day because you try to avoid it anything like that, but we did it.That's as Gerardo's is that feeling of relief after this?
Okay.I'm amazing.I can do anything.Well, it's taking up room in your brain, you know, and that's what you think of your brain is like a filing cabinet or like a shelf on a bookshelf.There's only so much that you can fit on there, you know, so if my bookshelf is chock-a-block which mine actually is, you know, if I keep buying more books, which I tend to do then there's only so much room on that bookshelf.
I've got you know, they might all be beautifully aligned this way, but then they start getting stacked on top in the opposite direction and then the sooner It's full.I've got nowhere to go with that.If I try and cram things in the cabinet the filing cabinets going to fall over the bookshelves going to fall over.So I need to release some of the information so that everything else can come in and make room for it, which is about decluttering.
I just wanted to recap there that there was a real gem I felt and something that I think is completely true which is the discussion around that you had.There was the discussion about how Ian actually creates motivation there is the big feeling the big thought that you have to build motivation before you can take action.
I'm going to motivate myself to call that client today.Yeah.I'm going to I'm going to motivate myself to be a better person by myself to that filing cabinet all I can motivate myself to open up the books and start studying that's a real flawed concept because you're relying on something that actually inherently may never actually achieve exactly if you take that one.
That one little bit of action that creates momentum momentum then creates the feeling of accomplishments which then in itself is motivation will result in motivation what then that's when you can take control over actually the situation rate while rather than waiting for inspiration and motivation to come from exactly which yeah, which may never come.
Yep.Yep.Yep.Absolutely.It's just doing it sort of like the Nike emblem isn't it?You know just do it and I think also, you know as you're talking I think you know if we are.Worrying about your that surgery.We don't want to perform that client.We don't want to have to call why not, you know, what's beneath the surface and that you know, so what's so bad about me ringing this client.
What's so bad about me performing the surgery?Well, what if I mess it up?What if I don't get a successful outcome, what if we find something in there that I don't know what I'm doing again, you know, it'll come back down to self-esteem.No doubt, you know everything when you just break it down just keep asking yourself.
Well, if this were true what would be so bad about that?Well, probably and I said why am I so worried about bringing this client?Well that always abuse me every time I ring up.Okay, you know so we don't don't like that conflicts.How could I address that?You know using a really nice assertive approach or communication style?
Yeah, you know what if I'm really worried about the surgery.What is it about this surgery?That's concerning me.Could I talk to someone about that or like the concept of sort of exploring your fears and really tackling your absolutely.It's kind of identifying and really The rising what the fear is exactly Feel the fear and do it.
Anyway, the book says yeah.Yeah, once you realize what the fear is, it's almost like is if you take away its power absolutely.
Well, that's what I mean.One of the acronyms for fear is false evidence appearing real and that's when you think about anxiety is typically that fear of something that we really Don't even know if it's going to happen.You know, it's fear is something we think is going to happen, but we don't necessarily know if it is it's preparing again that fight/flight response, you know, we think about what's all the worst-case scenarios for this situation that I'm in and one of my options I'm going to stay and fight or I'm going to take off in flight, but I think a lot of those those things when we're breaking it down about why is this so difficult?
Why is it so hard?What's underlying my reluctance or My procrastination around this and it could just be I mean I know for me in a lot of the work that I've done in the past, you know, we meet with clients we do these lengthy assessments and then we have to do these massive reports to go with it.
You know my mind.I'm like, I mean, I have no problem doing reports on from administrative background, but to me it's sort of like but I've already met with the client and got the information.Why do I now have to spend two hours to type up when I could be doing this?I could be doing that.You know, it's not the actual typing up the report.
That's the problem.It's that I've probably got a million.Things that I feel would be a more productive use of my time than spending two hours on this one particular task now, it's just not exciting to sit at my desk for two hours.You know when I could be out shopping or looking on Facebook or you know watching YouTube channels.
So, you know, I think it's breaking it down.It's it's not always going to come down to help because I'm not confident about typing that report but it's like what is this taking me away from or what else is there to do?I wonder if you don't mind I want to Skip back a few steps just to reiterate some of the things we talked about the basic self get things the sleep and exercise and diet and Leisure to think I think there's a risk that it's so commonly said that people take it as yeah, I should be sleeping more.
I should we should be drinking Lisa then that but I do think in this is from jury generally from just from personal experience people underestimate really the effect of that.I'll just take sleep as an example.Yeah.I've said to Gerardo I did.Yes.Night shift and add small babies and and I thought I was a miserable borderline depressed bastard until I started sleeping again and then you go.
Hey, actually, I feel a hell of a lot better to the point.Where now I I've become a bit of a bit of a sleep.You know, I'm very strict about my sleeve.I don't like to mess with it at all because I know the consequences how important is I think especially if we've got a younger audience of people just been students and they used to studying through the night and they young so they In cope with it.
That's what they think they can cope with it.So think they're bulletproof.So, you know tough day at work and you unwind with a with a movie or something like that.I do think people learn is to make the price that they pay for watching that movie to go.You know, there's two hours of sleep would probably make worse work a lot less sucky the next day.
Yeah, just yeah just basic stuff like that and the same thing for exercise.I challenge anybody to have a good exercise routine and then drop it for a week and then see how miserable you are and I having it.I completely agree there I go on a travel trip.If I go on a conference, I have to try and yeah even two days without training really upsets my mojo.
So yeah, we're talking about getting good sleep hygiene.So typically what they say is every 90 minutes or so we get that sleepy period it's sort of like, you know, I'll use just a normal day job.So I sorry for people like Dorado and I work night shifts with just using this because I can apply it to myself we I finally get to six o'clock and we're you know ready to fall asleep and we could quite easily go and lie down, but you might think six o'clock sand little bit too early to go to bed.
Generally, you know, if you just sort of sit with it for a moment you tend to get that second wind and it might be because you're tired because your blood sugar's dropped or you've had a really big day and you haven't been able to wind down so you want to just you know, sit there and then you do you get that second when you like woohoo.
I'm not tired anymore then roughly another 90 minutes or pass about 7:30.You start?That you know the naughty dog's again, you might think are maybe that's to still too early to go to sleep.So, you know that eventually will pass you get that second wind again, and then I we're raring to go nine o'clock.
He guy.Yeah, that's probably a bit more reasonable time for me to go to bed.The key is to go to bed when you're sleepy.Otherwise, if you go to bed when you're not sleepy that's when you came to toss and turn and you know minds thinking about too many things and you just can't get to sleep so setting Yourself and we're good bedtime routine.
And this would apply whether you're a shift work or not.Although I appreciate its most likely harder to get their circadian rhythms balance when you are working shift work and my husband was a next shift worker to sort of saw the the toll and how difficult it is, you know to be able to get into that kind of pattern but trying as best you can to make this work and following these kind of things is, you know, when you are getting close to that bed time period Then doing something relaxing Saying and that might be just journaling quietly, you know, just writing in a journal, you know, you three good things that have happened today or your gratitude or taking a little moment to prepare for the day ahead.
You know, what we said before with what's my task list for tomorrow?It might be doing some quiet reading or watching a show that's not going to mentally stimulate your physically stimulate you like watching, you know Murder Mystery or something like that right before you go to bed xabi not helpful and certainly if you're reading before You go to bed.
Make sure it's something that's not going to have you having nightmares all night either because that's certainly not going to help so being able to switch off from that, you know, and they say recommending that you get off your phones and your iPads and your computers and all of that before you go to bed, you know have an hour or two hours before bed.
We want the brain to start thinking that it's getting night time.We want the Melatonin the Sleep chemical did be kicking in to Preparing our bodies for sleep and preparing.Rest, so we're programming our body to start getting ready for sleep.That's very useful.You know, I feel like we keeping I'm looking at the clock and we had a bit of a second wind.
I do so yes, my doctoral thesis has been repurposed I guess into new self-help book.So it's just being renamed coping with stress and burnout as a veterinarian.
It's appropriate for vet vet students that nurses because of the nature.Two of my research was strictly with vets the information particularly in the first part is obviously very much tailored around the statistics with vets and you know my own research that I did with why working in the vet profession can be so stressful and the contributing factors.
So that aspect is quite heavily focused there, but I don't imagine it would vary that much from the other Veterinary professionals that are working there.You're still going to be dealing with, you know, the difficult clients and you know those difficult Ages and the compassion fatigue there might be a few more exclusive areas because obviously you're making the bigger decisions and stuff like that.
But there's also the coping and well-being program, which is the psycho educational Intervention Program, which I developed in my research which is an evidence-based training program that I put together to trial to see if it would be able to give the vet participants in the research the coping strategies to deal with everyday life.
Not necessarily just at work because not everyone's struggling at work.Yeah, this is about okay, we knowledge that.Some people are struggling but not everyone is say how do we maintain that level of well-being and which is why we were talking about the positive psychology.
The positive psychology is in their acceptance and commitment therapy is in there, you know Stress Management time management resilience communication skills goal setting so there's no the seven really big modules that are actually in the book.So it's being released in February.
So it's actually been published in February.It'll get released.Yes.I and I'm really excited.Um yet 2019 yet.Sorry.Yep.And for those I guess there might not be that many because obviously professor emeritus Professor Trevor he has retired, but for those that are there who know him and remember him from the University of Queensland, he wrote the foreword and there which was a Save massive honor to have him write that like I absolutely cherish Trevor.
He examined my thesis or was one of the examiners of my thesis and you know, I referenced a lot of his work in my thesis.I just think he's he's awesome.So that is just an incredible honor to have his work and there, you know his acknowledgment in the book.
But yeah, it's designed to be a yeah.I'm so excited to get it out there but as a self help so we talked about the statistics and why and what's actually going on but then we actually go or what do we do about it?Which is what my thesis was all about.
We didn't just want to reinvent the wheel about we know it's a stressful job.We know there's a high suicide rate.We wanted to also get yeah, but what do we do about it, you know and as a psychologist I am in a position to address that and do something about it, which is what what that's done.
That's exactly what we're trying to address.Absolutely and and I guess to with the Draw Dimension before the love your pet love your vet Campaign, which has now become a charity which was a Jurado is a huge part of that.So for anyone who's watched the video to see Gerardo and they're being famous and Hank.
So it's huge part of the road shows.And yeah, it's been absolutely awesome.Yeah, we got brilliant vets.And of course Trevor's in some of the videos as well to reduce that stigma. you know it reaching out and seeking support and to also raise awareness in the community about what's really going on that the perceptions about, you know, are you just fabulously well paid and you live in your mansions and have your fancy cars and just playing with the puppies and kittens all day that that's not actually the reality, you know, so we really want to bust those myths but I see us like as an advocate for the veterinary industry in the veterinary profession to start tackling some of those issues and you know, we have a formal Committee as well made up of vets who got nurses.
We've got students.We've got non-vet Professionals in there as well to really sort of go right?What are the biggest issues that we want to start tackling?You know, what are the things we want to start advocating for to make this better to create that paradigm shift that we need to have happening to change I think from that mentality that that's the way it's always been we have to suck it up which absolutely isn't, you know, we need more people like Gerard I did and like John duly did and like many of the our vets have done that are coming out and speaking up and actually saying something and the more that happens the more will start to get that change know the more we have these kind of discussions the more that change will start to happen.
We didn't we D stigmatizing the whole mental health and and making it okay to get that support - Deena really appreciate the the time you've given us tonight and I suppose one of the things you wanted to close off with was was talking about You booked and and so in the links, we will put a link to the book itself.
So coping with stress and burnout as veterinarian.So as you said available beverage 2019, and also what we'll do is put links to the love your pet.Love you vet charity as well.So you really do have it?No, there's a lot to take in.It's amazing.I really appreciate the time and do it again sometime.
Yay.Thank you so much for him.I think it's good.Thank you for listening to podcasts and I hope you found it informative enjoyed it too.Now.
We hit this mashup section.So have a think about who you will phone when you've hit rock bottom.Seriously.I think it's a good thing to have this in your mind about who you will reach out to decide now who that person will be who that Lifeline is.
You can't think of anyone make sure that you have access to the organizations that can help you in a crisis.So then when she hits the fan you don't have to start thinking about who you need to speak to where you can go because you know all that information already.Can I put some of those resources in the show notes as well?
If anybody doesn't know where to start?This is a some good starting points for us.We could link to use some more on your drinking habits your sleep habits all the other healthy resilience building things that made in talks about but I think if you've listened to this episode, you should have the gist of it and you should know what you should be doing.
But real life doesn't always allow for you to have the perfect life style that fits with with how to be completely resilient and different things affect different people in different ways.So I heard some very good advice the other day on how to figure What is important for you?
What are the things that you really should try not to mess around with and what can you get away with so we'll do it like good scientists.You do a bit of an experiment to get a notebook specifically for this maybe use the Gratitude diary that you started that you should have started after last week's episode.
Now what you do at the end of each day you write down a school out of five for your average mental state for the day.So think back in the day.How did you generally feel was it a good day?Was it just an average day?Was it a really shitty day?So five been good one being really really crappy write down how much you slept the night before and whether you slept well and then generally the things that you did during that day that anything happened during that day that particularly influenced how you felt anything really good.
Did you do something that made you feel really good or did something happen or you have entered an interaction with somebody who had a really negative effects on your on your well-being for the day record that don't worry about it too much but then after a month or Look back at your notes.
What you should see is some clear patterns of what affects your mental health what allows for you to have Optimum mental health and what to track what detracts from your well-being what happens in the teens will give you the most benefit and then work on that just pick the things that work for you follow them and they'll things that don't really affect you ignore it.
That's us now.Get out there and go smash it before you start head to the iTunes Store and give us some feedback.We'd love to know how we're doing.And if you loved it go tell at least three of your friends to give us a go.

Dr Nadine Hamilton