May 7, 2021

#43: Integrative practice, with Dr Gary Richter.

#43: Integrative practice, with Dr Gary Richter.
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Season 1

What do you think when you hear the words ‘holistic’, or ‘alternative’. What about "complimentary"? These are terms that can evoke quite strong opinions and responses in many vets one way or another, right? 

100% honest - I was a bit apprehensive about doing this interview. I’m a natural skeptic, and I was worried that our guest was going to be a bit  ‘out there" in his ideas, but I’m very glad that we took the time for this conversation. Turns out that, like me, and like you, Dr Gary Richter is a vet who cares about his patients and wants to find as many ways as he can to help them. He just happened to have found his niche in offering treatments that are a bit outside of the norm. And I must admit, it’s made me very curious. 

Dr Gary Richter has been practicing veterinary medicine in the San Francisco Bay Area since 1998, after starting out his career in emergency. These days he runs a practice that focuses on the benefits of conventional and holistic treatment methods for the preventative and therapeutic care of pets as well as educating professionals and pet owners on the benefits of integrative care. Dr Richter was named Holistic Veterinarian of the Year for 2019 by the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association, is currently the President of the American College of Veterinary Botanical Medicine, and is a founding member of the Veterinary Cannabis Society. He’s also the author of a book called The Ultimate Pet Health Guide. 

In our conversation, we dig up and chew on a few of the old bones on contention in our profession, like the role of alternative or complementary medicine in veterinary science, and the processed foods vs whole foods debate. Gary talks about integrative medicine as a practice model and as a business model, and he tells us about a few of his favourite and most useful therapeutic discoveries that he's made on his explorations. And of course we can’t talk about alternatives to a Californian vet without talking about cannibis!

Please enjoy this enlightening view of our profession from a slightly different angle. 

 

Aussies and Kiwis - if you're itching for some face-to-face CPD and for some fun on the ski slopes - go book your spot for Vets On Tour's upcoming August conferences at https://www.vetsontour.com.au/events/vets-on-tour-lake-wanaka-august-2021/

Go to https://thevetvault.com/podcasts/  for the show notes and to check out our guests’ favourite books, podcasts, and everything else we talk about in the show.

Subscribe to our clinical podcast series at  https://vvn.supercast.tech for weekly short and sharp high-value clinical updates from world-class specialists that you can consume on the go. 

We love to hear from you. If you have a question for us or you’d like to give us feedback, please leave us a voice message by going to our episode page on the anchor app (https://anchor.fm) and hitting the record button, via email at thevetvaultpodcast@gmail.com, or just catch up with us on Instagram. (https://www.instagram.com/thevetvault/) 

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The way I look at alternative medicine is, you know, any sort of treatment modality that I'm going to bring it in my practice and use on my patients.I feel like has to have it has to have some, fairly solid evidence behind it.What's not purely, just a function of finding somebody out there.
That said, they are curing, cancer, waving crystals and burning sage.I mean, there's got to be something there.Good evening, ladies and gentlemen.This is Dorado Polly.And this sorry I'm Gerardo Pollard.
I'm Ubud him stray and this is the bait.Frog Hello, Ed, Walters, and welcome back.Before we start today's episode, I want to tell you about an upcoming conference or actually two conferences.
You talking about an actual real life in person conference with actual human beings and everything.Now, if you're not from Australia or New Zealand, then you should consider skipping the next two minutes because it might hurt your feelings a little bit to hear what we're about to talk about.Maybe just hit that, skip 15 seconds, but in about five or six times and we'll see you on the other end of this thing on, I think.
So, you think so.Yeah.Now if you listened to the clinical series, you'll know, Dave Collins as our very knowledgeable medicine specialist and co-host.But what you might not know is that Dave is also a veteran at organizing spectacular CPD events in spectacular locations.
It's called vets on tour and while it's obviously was a no-go during 2020, it's back this year with to drool Worthy.Events in August, he's organized one in one, a car in New Zealand and that goes for five days and that is five days of snowboarding, skiing and continuing education and the other one in thread row right here.
In Australia.For some more snow and continuing education, they have a stellar line-up of speakers in Smalley's medicine, Cardiology and surgery, ready to get you up skilled and inspired on the work.Front butt.With a program that leaves plenty of time to hit the slopes and both of these events feature, some real-life humans talking to each other and socializing literally almost touching each other.
If it wasn't for the 1.5 meter distance rule, although high fives on the slopes is a very hard thing to avoid your biggest challenge or at least my biggest challenge will be deciding on which of the events to attend.I doubt that I'll get away with to ski trips this, I mean, continuing education events this year, but I'll definitely see you at one of them.
We might even try to do some live broadcasting from the event and I will say I've had a look and flight to New Zealand are pretty cheap at the moment so that is 126 August 4th, Ed bow and 22 to 27 August for one occur and you can go and secure your spot at Vuitton to a.com dot a you hopefully see you there.
All right, now back to our episode and our guests.What do you think when you hear the words holistic or alternative?Or what about complementary?These are terms that can evoke quite strong opinions and responses in many of its one way or another right?
A hundred percent honest.I was a bit apprehensive about doing this interview.I am a natural skeptic so I was worried that our guest was going to be a little bit out there in his ideas, but I am super glad that we took the time for this conversation, it turns out that like me and like probably like you You dr.
Gary Richter is a vet, who cares about his patients and wants to find as many ways as you can to help them.And he happens to have found his Niche and offering treatments that are a bit outside of the norm.And I must admit, it has made me curious dr.Gary Richter has been practicing veterinary medicine in the San Francisco Bay Area since 1998 starting out his career.
In emergency these days he runs a practice that focuses on the benefits of conventional and holistic treatment methods.For the preventive and therapeutic care of pets as well as educating professionals and pet owners on the benefits of Integrative care.
Dr. Richter was named holistic veterinarian of the year in 2019, by the American Holistic Veterinary, Medical Association and is currently the president of the American College of Veterinary, Botanical medicine, and is a founding member of the veterinary.
Cannabis Society is also Also, the author of a book called The Ultimate Pet Health guide.In our conversation with him, we dig up and to on a few of the old bones of contention, in our profession, like the role of alternative or complementary medicine and the processed foods versus Whole Foods, debate Gary talks about integrative medicine as a practice model and as a business model and it tells us about a few of his favorite and most useful, therapeutic discoveries that he's made on his explorations.
And of course regard talk about alternatives to California.It without talking about marijuana, please enjoy this enlightening view of our profession from a slightly different angle, dr.Gary Richter.Together director Gary.
Welcome to the show.Thank you, happy to be here.Other Giada A Team.It's be back.Squeezing, in, in the nick of time.Again, do my best mate.Gary, we have so much to talk about.I am, we haven't had anybody in your field of with your interest on the show yet and I'm personally I'm sure the listeners will be super curious but I've got so much to ask, but I want to jump in with something a little bit exciting or Usual.
But from Google you you have quite an interest in marijuana or marijuana derivatives for patient care.That's a question that we get quite a lot as if it's actually there's a lot of people obviously stuffs out there on the internet and there's clearly something to it as an issue blind.
There's there's a lot of evidence that it can work for certain things.So we have clients coming into even an emergency practice asking about using marijuana or CBD oil, for seizure control and all those sort of things.Things.But because there's this thing around at that you're not supposed to do it and it's not licensed medications.
We pretty uninformed, I certainly don't know what to use it for, how much, and how first of all, how did you start down that journey to?Was it a particular case or something you've found or what started, you down the Journey of exploring that as a treatment modality.
You know, my practice is, is very much an integrative Medicine practice.So, you know, I practice both Strong medicine and complementary and Alternative Care.So, acupuncture Chiropractic herbal therapy.What have you so philosophically?
I'm always kind of looking for what else is out there that I can use to help my patients and the way I the way I look at alternative medicine is, you know, any any sort of treatment modality that I'm going to bring it in my practice and use on my patients.I feel like has to have It has to have some fairly solid evidence behind it.
What's not purely, just a function of, you know, finding somebody out there that said, they're curing cancer, waving crystals and burning sage.I mean, there's got to be something there to it.So anyway, you know, my practice is in the San Francisco Bay Area, specifically Oakland, California, and we are actually sort of in the epicenter of medical cannabis and cannabis in general with in California and to a certain extent within the country.
And honestly it was really sort of inevitable that my practice was going to go this way because so many people now, I think like you're experiencing now, and be about this is like four, five years ago.So many people were coming into the practice.Asking, what can I do?
You know, I had a great experience with medical cannabis myself.Is there a way I can use this for my pet?And, and I didn't know what to say and nobody else I knew what to do, what to say.And around that time, I happen to have a client, that was bringing his dog in for rehab and he owned a dispensary.
He was the owner of a cannabis dispensary, so I was chatting with him one day and I told him I'm like, I'm interested in this, but I don't even know to, I don't know where to start.I don't know who to talk to and he's like, I have the perfect person for you to talk to.He's like there's a guy that that makes Artisan cannabis medications that we have in my dispensary, you should talk to this.
Guy and he gave me his phone number and I called this guy and we started talking and over a period of time that conversation led to us developing several cannabis formulas of specifically for animals and we started using them and they worked and they started working really well for pain and arthritis for seizure control as palliative care for cancer patients, these sorts of things.
And and that's what really kind of got me started down that road.And now A, as I think you're probably aware.There's been, it's been a decent amount of research done in to medical cannabis for animals, that that, and that body of research is ever growing.There are there's now been laws passed in California and other places to allow the veterinarians to get into this discussion.
So, yeah.So that's, that's kind of how that all happened.So it was, it was it.So we tried, it ain't like, I don't even know how much to try like it's drop and then you see Adopters and then two drops or something.Well, you know, I mean, when we first started out, it was a little bit like that in the sense of, I mean, it wasn't so much a drop as much as like, how many milligrams per kilogram where we going to give.
So you can see, you can actually get the oh, yes, absolutely.So, I mean, you have to know the concentration of what you're giving or who knows what dose.You're actually, you're actually giving you know, but now, well, at least, at least on the CBD side of things.Now, we have research data, looking at Active dosing and pharmacokinetics.
So now we have something a little bit more solid at least on that end.But I mean, even just from what we know about human medicine and kind of a bit of trial and error on our part, we have some pretty good ideas about make particular thing for THC as well.So for those different conditions, so that the things that I'm aware of is, I know, humans for seizures or epilepsy works well, and then paint control others.
Your two main indications, pain control is Probably the biggest one seizures, you know, it gets used a lot for seizures and the other thing that we see it used a lot for is palliative care for cancer patients.
So whether or not that's pain control or sort of helping them deal with the side effects of chemotherapy, so the GI effects that sort of thing.So it can be very beneficial in that sense as well.And is it mostly the CBD or the THC or how are you?
What do you actually use it?It it, you know, any or all.And then some so, you know, people people here in the states, they can literally just go to the pet shop and buy CBD for their pet.So that's a thing that people do all the time, you know, the broader Spectrum cannabis, so, like cannabis that has THC in it.
That's a little bit of a different story, and that's the kind of thing for obvious reasons that has to be dosed, extremely carefully.And it is something that I speak with people about on a fairly regular basis.Because clearly, you know, the last thing that we want to do is have somebody accidentally cause toxicity.
Mmm, you talkin about CBD, what's with the CBD, what does it mean?Let's let's before we just to clarify, where we are with this carrier in Australia, we don't have any legal access to it, maybe CBT.You could probably find, so we very ignorant of it here.
So it started to be Basics.Okay, fair enough.So the very basic so as a Everybody knows cannabis is a plant and cannabis as a plant produces a wide variety of chemical compounds, sort of the most significant of which are called the cannabinoids and the cannabinoids are called as such because these chemical compounds actually interact with with receptors in our own nervous system, a system of neurotransmitters in our nervous system called the endocannabinoid system.
So These cannabinoids that are produced by cannabis.There's a lot of them, there's literally hundreds of them but I mean the to that most people have heard of our THC and CBD THC is the main psychoactive component of cannabis so that's the thing that gets you high CBD does not, but so CBD.
Cannabidiol, it has some very, very interesting, medical properties.It can be anxiety.Lytic it has Guy seizure properties of potentially, as anti-cancer potentially has GI supportive properties.There's a lot of very interesting research out there, both in those sort of pre clinical Arena.
But also, you know, real research studies because in, at least in the states, cannabis research looking at cannabis products that are made from hemp.So, in other words, a cannabis plant that produces very little, if any THC, that sort of research is legal to do.
A lot of that research is getting done now.So we're definitely seeing some very, very interesting data coming out as far as CBD goes in particular.Hmm.Now thanks for tuning for.Yeah.I didn't know any of that stuff beforehand and and is it because they when you go online and you Google it it's like the wonder drug it is nothing.
It can't do.And it's Superior to anything else.Do you find it?Superior?For example, for pain, control is Is it a useful adjunct or is it a replacement in certain instances?You know what I would say, I would say mostly it's a useful adjunct where it comes in really handy.
As a replacement is, let's say you have a patient that for any number of reasons you can't give an NSAID to yeah.Hold every disease GI issues.What have you?Now you got to figure out something else.I mean you know you still got gabapentin and that sort of thing but cannabis can be really really effective sort of Substitute for those sorts of things and there's some interesting research out there looking at various cannabinoids as they function as Cox inhibitors.
And, and in some of these research studies, they actually measure up pretty well to NSAIDs the the resources that people can have easy access to online resources in terms of Doses.And that I mean, I'd love to be able to recommend people.I have had clients come in.
I had a very bad seizure case that the client was going to use it regardless.Unless he was asking my advice.Yeah, I can't give you any advice, I don't know, but I would love to help you because he was just blind dosing.And as you say, it was probably getting the dog.As Isaac I could write its and happens.
So but to answer your question, as far as a resource, I actually have a very good one for you.Over the past year, I've been, I've been involved with a group of veterinarians and researchers, and we've put together a nonprofit called the veterinary cannabis Society.
And the purpose of the veterinary.Cannabis Society is exactly for what we're talking about, educate veterinarians, educate pet owners and also work to make sure that there's laws and legislation passed so that veterinarians can have the conversation with the pet owner that they need to.
So if people want to go check out the veterinary cannabis Society, the the easiest website is VCS dot pet.So there The the website is up although I will tell you that come April or so it will be dramatically expanded as far as the content on there in the educational materials were just we're finishing up that aspect of it right now.
So there's some stuff there now but in a month or two it's going to be really extensive will put that in the show notes.So in that discussion, Gary you talked about your practice as a much more holistic approach to do veterinary science, How did that happen for you?
Because I am I right in saying you started your career like us as an emergency vet?Yeah, yeah, no, that's exactly what happened.Not a lot of holistic care in emergency medicine.No, no, there's precious little holistic here.So I'll tell you what, you know, the way that that happened was, is I had been I had been in practice for a, I don't know.
I think about four years and I was getting to a point where at that point I was working.General practice.So a little bit less exciting than the emergency work.You know, a little bit.I don't want to say mundane but a little bit more sort of routine.And I was getting to the point where I kind of found myself looking for something else, from the perspective of, you know, like when you work, emergency, you don't do any long-term care, right?
It's just, it's just stabilize them and then somebody else takes over, yeah.But but working in general, practice, you're doing this long-term care, and, and what starts to happen, as you start to, really see, you start to see the His point in the, in the treatment algorithm, you know.
So so you start to see like your cat with renal failure, you know, you know exactly where that's going to end, right?Because there's a certain number of things you can do treatment.Why is it after that?There's nothing left and I really didn't like having to go to people and tell them.
There's nothing else I can do for you.Yeah, you know, take your cat home and when it's time give us a call and it just really sort of led me to start looking to other things.And I around that time I went to a veterinarian conference and there was a there was a lecture like introduction to acupuncture which I just kind of went to on a whim and it looked really interesting and I wound up signing up for an acupuncture course and I took that course and I got certified in acupuncture and you know, the the amazing thing that happened and you know, this tends to happen with a lot of people who kind of go down the holistic path, is you start to realize that there are things that they Not teach you in veterinary school that are dramatically effective in ways that they told you in school.
Could not be done.And as I often tell people, once you've seen that reality you can't unsee it.Once you take one step down that path.It's a one-way street because then you got to find out what else is out there that you can do to help your patients.
And that as I said before, I mean to me I'm always looking for what's the next thing and that's how I got there is like you're like holy Crap, like all of a sudden my patients with kidney failure, are going six months or a year longer than they were before with good quality of life.
So why would I not do that?If I know how to do that.So that's, that's, that's how I got to sort of where I am now.Yeah.Like so, you know, we'll always trained at Uni for look at the evidence, what did you have a nice behind and so forth.
So so you kind of you went there on the women then saw the evidence but Like so when something new comes up, do you look at the evidence and like what kind of evidence out there is the you be happy to accept as opposed to anecdotal reports and things like in case reports and things.
Yeah, that's it.That's a really great question because, you know, I mean, as, as veterinarians of course, we're trained, that there is an acceptable sort of level of research, you know, you know, perspective of a blind to control show me that study exactly, show me this evil, controlled, etcetera, etcetera.
And the reality is that a lot of natural therapies do not have that degree of research behind them, but that doesn't mean that they don't have research behind them, you know?So for example, if you look at, if you look at Chinese medicine, whether it's acupuncture herbal therapy, there's a lot of studies out there looking at Chinese medicine and, you know, acupuncture herbal therapy and a lot of studies that show efficacy just not necessarily in that conventional Western format.
But if you go on, You you guys over there you're familiar with PubMed.Is that a thing?Yeah.So I mean if you go on PubMed and you look up these topics, you will find all kinds of things.So for me, the decision of like, is this something that I want to that, I want to start bringing to my patients.
It's really a combination of balancing.The the what are the potential upsides from the standpoint of?What I can see in the research and the anecdotal evidence out there balanced with what's the downside?Inside you know what potential harm could possibly come to this patient and like I say I'm fully integrative so it's not that I'm going to say, I'm going to take this patient off of all of his heart meds.
Yeah.And just treat him with her herbs.I'm not doing that.So it's just a question of like, can I augment that stuff to make the dog or cat feel better make them live longer?So yeah, I mean, clearly there's that above all Do no harm aspect of things.Yeah.
But for me, if there's compelling evidence, that something might work, And there's very little downside and I don't see a reason not to try it.Yeah sure.Yeah.I think you probably there for many of us the reason is It's not a because it's not a mainstream accepted thing, it almost feels like a lot of effort to try something that might not work.
Whereas if somebody comes it look here's the trial.It's kind of where it's going to do that.It's much easier to take it into your everyday practical work.I also I think personally I think I don't want to sell stuff to people if I don't know for a fact that it's that it's that is if occasion but but you say that as soon as you start using it you see the Well, you obviously you try to things and if you see it works and you stick to it, have you tried any of the alternative?
I don't know.I don't know what the right word is alternative or a lipstick medications that didn't work that.You try to determine that.That's not that's not making a difference.Yes, absolutely.Many things over the years.You know various various herbal formulations that were designed to say you know, help treat a particular condition and you know, I treat a number of animals and didn't really see any results and you know what you kind of You kind of let that one go, you leave it by the wayside you just you just move on, you know, and to your point about about, you know, sort of quote selling stuff, you know, at least as it pertains to my practice.
People are coming into my practice looking for something that because because more often than not, they're already doing everything on the Western Medical side.Yeah.And and things are not going well.So so you know they're always looking for something.And the reality is is like compared to Western Medical Treatments.
Boo stuff on the on the holistic side is pretty affordable.I'm not like it's not like I'm going to sell him a bottle of herbs for $1,000, you know, it's reasonably speaking.A month's worth of herbal, you know, an herbal combination to treat a dog with arthritis is going to be a heck of a lot cheaper Than A month's worth of carprofen or meloxicam.
So I think in that sense for pet owners, it's a fairly easy easy reach.Yeah.Especially and as you said, they came to you for particular reason, because They haven't got what they're looking for or they just, you know, can't see any way forward.You know it's probably worth saying since we're on this holistic topic that there is a there is an organization on your end of the world in Australia called the College of Integrative Veterinary therapies.
It's an online platform for veterinarians where you can take courses in herbal medicine, Chinese medicine acupuncture.Any number of topics, you know, if that's something, Thing that that interest people.It's an excellent platform.I've done a course for them on cannabis therapy but there's all kinds of stuff on there.
So if like you know anybody that's listening is interested in holistic medicine, particularly if they're in Australia or in that part of the world, the check out civt they do a great job.Okay.We'll put that in the show notes as well, it's good night.So when you're hiring Associates and things like it's is it easy to find vegetable jump in.
And and you know, Like the little chuckle.Yeah, I I left because I literally just hired somebody this week and I will tell you that it's a minor miracle that that I actually hired somebody because it is an extremely small population of veterinarians that that do this kind of work.
And a lot of the ones that do do holistic and alternative medicine in many cases have given up Western Medical Practice.So finding somebody, you know, that can keep one foot on, either side of that line is very, very challenging.And I am very grateful and thankful this week that I actually found somebody because it can take a long time.
As I have said, it's, you know, you're fishing in a very, very small pool.Yeah, yeah.It's a, it's a, it's a divisive topic.Sometimes within the rich and communities seen it Sydney on the, on the, on the social media, which new platforms people are very Struggling for, or against the, you know what?
I, as I have said, we mock what we do not understand.Yeah, yeah, I'm all beautiful time, but I understand.And maybe I'm just putting you don't, you don't understand me.That's so get it in.
That sphere of non traditional therapies.What's new and exciting?Now, have you found anything that's?Got you all excited about?Something about potentially, A new therapies, you know, from I guess, from a, from a new therapy standpoint, I mean, some of the things that we've started doing in my office recently and these are not necessarily brand new to medicine but they are kind of new to my practice.
We've been doing a lot, more ozone therapy.We have started doing fecal transplants, getting back to the whole poop discussion of earlier, we do hyperbaric oxygen therapy, which can be very beneficial and we recently brought in a I'm sure you're familiar with cold laser therapy, but we recently brought in a high-intensity laser that is a little bit more specifically designed to treat damaged ligaments and tendons.
So we're using that in Some of our rehab cases as well with good results and that's something that's not there's not a lot that you can do for that.So it's nice to have a tool of any sort for it.Yeah, yeah.I mean, we found that it works for the dogs, we have that come in with medial shoulder instability at Works amazing for those dogs.
It also turns out it works really really well for wound healing.So for dogs with chronic wounds or we had a dog came in that it had a soft tissue sarcoma removed from the stifle and even with and the The skin flap failed and there was a hole in this dog's leg.
That was probably about 9 or 10 centimeters across.It was it was unbelievable.And we treated the dog with a combination of the high-intensity laser and ozone therapy.And we're about, I think three weeks in and it's now now about a centimeter and a half.
Wow, it just wait.It was amazing.Yeah, like some of the things you just mentioned there of, you know, I've been hearing about For a while and like the the fecal transplant that wasn't it like this a really famous rock star who literally had a guy who follow along with them in the in their touring van, who didn't do all the hardcore drugs and things whose job was literally to and then that's it.
I don't know if that's true but it's a good story.No he was.The Fuji was the Pooh donor for her.
So, hyperbaric, oxygen therapy and preface this by saying that Hyperbaric therapy has been around for a really long time, like, mmm, early 20th century.It's been around for a really long time, and, and it's always sort of occupied this sort of not very frequently traveled neech in human medicine.
Where it's Is for very specific, things like diabetic ulcers and necrotizing, fasciitis, and other sort of weird, esoteric things that people get.But in veterinary medicine, I have found it useful for a number of things much like some of those other modalities we were just talking about.
It can be useful for wound healing but even more so than that, it's great for any kind of CNS.Trauma, head trauma, spinal, trauma, blown, discs car, Cartilaginous embolus that sort of thing because effectively what you're doing is, you know, you're putting an animal in this chamber and you're pressurizing it with a hundred percent oxygen at two or three times atmospheric pressure.
So, when they're breathing pure oxygen under that pressure.What's happening is is that though the, those oxygen molecules are being driven into the blood, to the point where the plasma becomes saturated with oxygen.I mean the oxygen carrying capacity of hemoglobin, is it?
Relevant to that point.Okay.Cool.Because the plasma itself is saturated with oxygen.So what winds up happening is is so as all that plasma flow throughout the body you wind up so you no longer are dependent on blood circulation and blood vessels to get oxygen to tissues because the oxygen, as you know, as physics demands will travel from an area of higher concentration to an area of lower concentration.
So what happens is, you know, the oxygen gets close to the area and then it passively diffuses into the places that have poor circulation.So any place where there are severe swelling, any place where Is poor circulation.Like, for example, the spinal cord, it's a great way to eliminate the rate-limiting step as far as healing goes.
You know, the other thing that we've had great success with and this could be very applicable again, on your end of the world.I don't know if you guys have black widow spiders by you but you have every other evil insect that that lives on the planet.I don't know how any of you survive into adulthood but we've treated treated a number of dogs with black widow spider bites that came to us.
With the point, where the surgeon sent it to us as a last resort before they amputated the leg because the swelling was so bad.The leg was starting to necrosis.And within a matter of days, those dogs are markedly better.One of the beam was like necrotizing fasciitis or something.
Oh that's blood supply, with carrying anybody X2 dead.Yeah, I will tell you and it's not something that we, that we do out here because out where I live.We don't have a lot of snakes, but there are a lot of Reports of venomous snake bites treated with hyperbaric oxygen that have done very well as also because, you know, because you wind up with these animals or people with compartment syndrome because of the swelling and then there's no oxygenation and stuff starts to die.
Okay.So if you can get oxygen into that area, all of a sudden that tissue doesn't have to die.So we wrap up the leg and put a plastic bag around and then Cano, know the whole animal goes in a chamber, it only, it works from the inside out.You have to We fit in and get it into your bloodstream, okay?
Then here's an interesting one.I'm doing some work at the moment at a wildlife hospital and unfortunately we get too many turds of sea turtles with fishing line.Entanglement around a flowy shirt.And the slippers, this flip is going to Chronic and they actually have a hyperbaric oxygen chamber on order.
Somebody donated it.That's specifically great application.Yeah, it specifically to try and save those flippers this.And at the moment there who already has really lost a flipper and now and then he had a second one entangled and they can survive on three flips but not too and yeah.And he's such a good be such a good candidate.
Yeah.You know, the only the only question I would have about that is, you know, being a reptile how what's their respiration rate?I mean I gotta I gotta breathe out oxygen in like I don't know how many breaths there, take it, don't take a lot of breaks.It's a very good choice, will take a lot of brass.
You might have to leave them in there for a long time.They evade its this is all brand new to me working with different species just the fact that they don't even have a thoracic cavity like I was looking at a case I was looking at X-rays of this thing going.So the way where's the diaphragm like yes has no diagram dude it's just a single cavity.
That's very straight.So how do you it's all mine?Baby.Bump.That legs or something.Yeah, they look like they said, forget it, it's very weird.Is it where do we take us from our?But those are interesting.I'm gonna definitely look at some of those resources.
That's, um, that's fantastic.So, where are we?FYI.I found the article about this but it's really answers.You can top this light.It's funny.It's like Sydney boy band.So it's any band.Like I've seen Australian band boy, in the bear, were at the height of their success.
When frontman Dave, hosking was hit with, severe got illness.He called the, he described as living hell, he began fecal transplant, pika.Cool fmt.What it was called.And it had almost immediate relief learnt.He learnt how to treat himself at home, with his makeshift lab end up found finding a local donor.
Could Harry Hughes a drop you off in his letter box and then he end up taking Harry on the road trips with him and even took Harry to Nashville and in likes you basically Harry enabled, him to continue touring and singing and stuff.So you I could sell what you thinking you thinking.
Well, I could drink as much as I want.I just need a After scientist, this this science, find that one.Yeah, clearly, yeah, they do then koalas.Yeah, yeah.That's it.Yeah, that's a big thing.
Well, they again, they are anus with antibiotics.They get all these things that they need any products for and then your antibiotic them and then they want to die because you've destroyed they got by him kill their gut.Yeah.Yeah.They complicated little things.All right.But really we go.Yeah, the I'm still not done.
In with the holistic practice think.Okay, it doesn't.Well, first of all, what's your practice model do people come to you as a as an additional thing or are you still getting rides coming through the door as purple primary care and that's just something extra that you offer.
And in the deck that the lead on question to that is or the follow-up question is, is it, is it good for bullying?A practice.Is it like is it a good step for a practice to take?So you know, we see we see both, we see We see Primary Care patients, but I would say the majority of what we see, maybe 75% of what we see are animals that are coming in for adjunctive care for a specific thing.
So whether or not it's a medical issue of cancer, they have kidney disease.What have you?The other thing that we see a lot of our rehab cases.So we see a lot of post-op, TPL owes or back surgeries these sorts of things to do the physical therapy and the rehab to get these dogs walking and moving again.
So that's a Big piece of it.So from the standpoint of your other question of, is it, you know, is it, is it a good business model?I mean I don't know how it goes in Australia but I would argue that veterinary medicine is a pretty poor business model to begin with but but that said I mean I think if you're a person that has the skill set to do it then what you wind up with is you wind up with a practice that is very differentiated from everybody else out there and they're a Solutely is a portion of the population that will gravitate towards that kind of medicine.
And, you know, the truth of the matter is is like, you know, like many many times I'll have people coming in because their veterinarian recommended surgery or chemotherapy or something, and they didn't want to do it.So they come in and talk to me about it and I sit down and I chat with him.And, you know, there are times when surgery or chemotherapy or radiation, or whatever is the right thing to do, and I'll sit down and I'll talk with them about Out the options and I'll tell them that.
I think that they should do it.And at that point they'll go do it.Because now they feel like they've talked to somebody that that you know is a little less biased towards Western medicine.But I tell them, like if there was an alternative, I would absolutely give it to you.But you know, there are times when surgery is the right thing.
And once they hear that from somebody who also practices alternative, they'll go do the surgery.Hmm, did you, did you cultivate relationships with referral centers and things too?Build relationships with them to send things to you as well.Yeah, you know, when you know, when I when when my practice kind of evolved in this Direction, I mean I had already, you know, because of my years working as an emergency clinician because of my involvement in sort of like our local County Veterinary, Medical Association.
I already had a very good relationship and reputation with the veterinary community in the area.And I think it worked out really nicely for me because because all those people already knew me as a competent Western veterinarian.So then when I started doing some of this other stuff, they were a little bit less likely to just to just brush it off because they're like, well, I don't understand it but I know that guy and I know he's not crazy.
Yeah, maybe I am but yeah.You know, not not crazy in a medically incompetent sort of way.So they were willing to send us stuff.So that was a great place to start from a referral based Is but we certainly we do everything we can to kind of foam at new referrals and maintain our referral base.
So for example, like any specialty hospital every animal, we see generates a referral letter that we send back to their regular veterinarian so that way they know what we're doing, they can see the progress.So hopefully the next time they have a case that looks similar to that, they'll think of us.
Okay, I'll get it.So the model is kind of like a your complimentary to their service that they're providing as well.Yeah.It's a math emergency for us, you know?No, we're not the primary vets but they come to us because they want, you know, Care at night.So we don't take over the care of their Veterinary of their pet from then on.
But yeah, it's a recent reports of what was done and follow-up notes and so yeah, okay, that makes sense.Yeah, you've got books and and YouTube channels and things.Gary I do.I do, I don't know how that happened, but it did the question.
How was that got, how did that happen?Skip that question.No idea whatsoever, how that happened.But yeah, I do have a book.It's called The Ultimate Pet Health guide and kind of the Genesis of that book where that started was it kind of started out as a discussion about about the benefits of whole food nutrition for dogs, you know, talking about the shortcomings of commercially prepared, Pet Foods Etc.
But as I was writing it, it really kind of exploded and expanded into something much much bigger.And it really turned into the discussion about nutrition leading into a discussion about integrative medicine.And what I wound up doing is a wound up writing, a whole bunch of chapters about various medical conditions.
So kidney disease, liver disease, arthritis allergies, what have you?So like 20 plus different things.So I just did it by chapter.And most of this was written with, with pet owners in line, so I kind of wrote, you know.Alright.So your dog Liver disease.What does that actually mean?
So, what's going on in your dog's liver?How is that diagnosed?How is it treated from a western perspective?How is it treated from a holistic perspective and how do you integrate all that together to get to get the best outcome?And I kind of went through all of these various disease processes.
So that, you know, somebody who's dealing with something with their pet, they can open up that chapter and kind of get an overview of what's going on.Then I wound up working with a nutritionist, and we put together.Together 50 homemade recipes for dogs and cats.So so if people wanted to make food at home, particularly if they needed to make a quote prescription diet and wanted to do it from a fresh food perspective, there's recipes in there for people to do that.
So yeah, turn into it.A two year Odyssey of writing this thing, but you know what I mean?It's I'm really happy with it.It, you know, it really encompasses a lot of what I do on a day-to-day It sounds huge didn't just take, this is pretty big and that I regret it.
If you knew what it was going to move into.You might not have started.Its I know it's I mean, it's like 400 Pages takes book.Yeah.A little bit but it reads it, it reads easier like I say I wrote it, I wrote it with pet owners in mind.
Although I think for if for a veterinarian that was interested in getting into holistic and alternative medicine, it might be an interesting read.Is it available?An audible?It is available on Amazon.Okay, cool.Gary said he the other you mentioned the recipes there and the the whole food.
So I think that that's something else.That's also quite divisive in our, within our profession.You know, I certainly was educated in the simplest way and the most guaranteed way to make sure It gets all the right nutrients is to get a commercially produced not a rubbish, you know, not some cheap skate food but the big Brands, that's the best way.
And that's what you should recommend.But I do wonder if some of that education was may, be funded by some of those brands on matter, but that's anyway, guys ask me.Should I be feeling X?Y&z I go look, it's easy to buy a ballast bag of food and my dog seemed to Define on it and I think there's a lot of it to feel that way about it.
Why why not?Why not, the commercial Foods, why not to drive cables?Yeah, you know, it's a really good question and like you I mean that's the education I got and in veterinary school as well.And to your point, the Nutrition department where I went to school was funded by Hills.
Yeah.Okay.So you know, you take that for what it's worth but you know, I look at it this way, we all know from as people from our own diets, the closer that we're eating to Fresh Whole Foods.The better off.
We are the less highly processed food that we eat, the more healthy that we are likely to be.And there is absolutely no reason that I can come up with to think that that would be any different in a dog or a cat.You know, no dog or cat evolved eating food out of a bag or a can anymore than we did.
Their bodies evolved to thrive and survive on Fresh Foods.So, when you start to look at dry food and canned food, it Is by every definition, highly processed food, and it's not so much that, you know, that highly processed is in and of itself, a bad word.
But if you look at what that really means, you know, number one, dry Foods, kibble are extremely high in carbohydrates, which is not necessarily an evolutionarily appropriate diet for a dog or a cat.The other thing that we know and this is, this is all in the research and it's amazing to me that the veterinary profession doesn't talk about this that It is very well known that there are carcinogenic chemical compounds, created in the process of making kibble, when you heat proteins and carbohydrates at high temperatures, and high pressures, chemical things happen.
It's just, it's chemistry.It's just that you can't make it not happen.So these things like Advanced glycated end products and and my yard product reactants.We know from the research that they cause inflammation, When they cause kidney damage, they cause cancer.And we also know from the research that dogs and cats eating those kinds of foods are often eating 30, 40, 50 times, more of those chemical compounds than your average person does in a day.
So, to me, when you start to look at it through that lens it kind of becomes a no-brainer from the standpoint of, they need to be eating something different.So that leads into the question of well, what should they be eating?And like I say I mean, what I generally tell people is the closer.
We can get our pets to a fresh whole food diet, the better off.We are, I'm not sure what sort of products are available out your way, but here, if somebody walks into the pet food store, there's a number of options for them.There are, there are fresh foods that you can buy Frozen either either lightly cooked Foods or raw.
And I know that raw food is a whole nother discussion from a Veterinary perspective.There are freeze-dried foods, there are Dehydrated foods that you add water to all of these things, by comparison to cans and kibble are minimally processed.And then and then also, you know, if people are so moved, they can make food for their pets at home.
The the caveat to that is that they have to work off of a properly, balanced recipe.You can't just put food in a bowl.Put meat and vegetables in a bowl and call it.Good never going to work, you know, I tell people that all the time and that's I put those recipes in the book so people how to Resource and how to do it.
So, I mean, there's a lot of ways to do it and I think it largely sort of hinges on on, on, you know, how much money somebody is able to spend and how much time they're willing to put in if they're making food.But there's almost always a better option than cable and can.
Hmm, I think probably too large degree.The reason we went towards the commercial food is because there was probably years and years of mail.And nutrition of poorly formulated home-cooked diets of dogs, eating white bread and stuff like right and then we saw was arraigned as nutritional deficiencies.
And then, the commercially made Foods were far superior because suddenly cats with dilated cardiomyopathy disappeared and all those sort of things.But right, it sounds like as there's more and more research.And as you say resources available, yeah, that's maybe something with.Maybe I should expand my thinking about it.
Yeah, you know what I mean?At the risk of some Shameless self-promotion, if you read Nutrition section in my book.It kind of spells it out.I'm of the all the whole time thing and convenience is a big evening.But yeah, so yeah, I mean, you can't beat the convenience.
I agree with you.And I mean, I honestly, I think that's the big selling point for foods like that is, is it's easy?Hmm, because I don't think that I'd, it's like I barely meal prep for myself, but the variety that I eat, then.Yeah.But at the same time, quite often they don't people, don't generally offer.
The variety, just a big batch of something.Yeah, right.And if you get a home cook, then you want to do a big batch of something good as opposed to just a big batch of whatever you think, might, they might want to eat or Woody, you know, to be sure.I strike it.If somebody made a kibble version sort of food for you, instead, I would buy it.
Maybe you should just split the bag of Hills.I always try dog.Food is really weird.Everyone gets.I was like, I haven't tried Katie.Like don't know, that's that's not that great not have Foods pretty tasty.Oh no.
Joe Hill's ad could can pass as Pate almost.Yeah.Looks like pâté if I had to survive in a dog food that would probably be my choice.Or is it fake?I think it's probably time we start wrapping it up.
Is there anything in particular that you'd like to talk about though that you feel strongly about?We have we have covered a lot of ground.We have to.Yeah, no.I mean, this has been great, you know, and I'm super happy to kind of talk about this topic.I'm always excited when veterinarians are interested in looking beyond the boundaries of what's normal.
And and you know, and that's the thing.If you know, if I could leave people with anything is like even though it's not what you learn in veterinary school, it's still science.You know, it's still science and medicine, it's just a little bit different and sometimes you just have to be willing to sort of have that open.
And, and look Beyond those Horizons this, it's amazing.What's out there?We'll wrap up with our routine questions.I always ask our guests, a bad podcast audio podcast, listener.Other than that, you'll be appearing on lot of podcast.I have been doing that.
I had to be honest with you.I am I, I would like to be a podcast listener.I don't find myself a lot of free time these days.Okay, then if not podcasts, what about books?Other than the ultimate bit cried, everybody needed books, you read.Recently that you can highly recommend that we should add to our list.
Oh my goodness.Do you mean on on the in finger doesn't have to be big know anything?What what, Matt what has made you a little bit wiser or a little bit more peaceful and relaxed that you've read recently?All right.Well, I'll tell you the, the book that I'm in the middle of right now.
Since you bring it up, I think, wiser and peaceful and relaxed describes, it perfectly The Power of Now, by Eckhart Tolle, I've heard the book but haven't Yeah, yeah, if you get the audio version, it's lovely because he he narrates it and and his his voice alone will make you feel better about yourself.
Excellent.Thank you.And then our very last question but I suspect you buy if just answered it but I'll ask it anyway.Your innovate conference gonna be a zoom conference at the moment and you have all of the rich nenu grades for the year listening to you.And you've got a minute or two to give them one message for their careers or for happy veteran career.
What's your one little bit of advice?Never stop learning.Short and sweet.I like that a lot and I couldn't agree more.Sounds like you fit that camp?Sure what fun is it if you're not continually getting better.
Yeah what's the book drive the famous made in Redbook talking about the three things that every person needs and they work to stay driven and committed to it and its autonomy purpose and Mastery.
So much to being continuous learning and getting better at You know, lifelong learning.That's a very thank you so much for your time.I really appreciate it.I know you're busy.That was really enlightening.I love it.Thank you.That was a lot of fun.You know, those conversations that you have at conferences, back in the days, when we still had big bed conferences, when people are chatting to the lectures and asking questions, and you hear things like this isn't really in the books.
But here's what I think, it's in those kinds of conversations that the best nuggets of wisdom appear, the nitty-gritty of real-life details that you can only get from here is and years of experience.And it's exactly those kinds of conversations that we try to emulate on the vent valve.
The clinical podcast we don't want lectures As we want to hear about the challenges, the tips, the stuff UPS there.This is how I do it.Go to VV n dot, supercars dotnet to join in the conversation.

Dr Gary Richter