Jan. 15, 2021

#38: Behaviour: pets, vets, and clients. With Dr Sarah Heath.

#38: Behaviour: pets, vets, and clients. With Dr Sarah Heath.
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Season 1

Dr Sarah Heath is an RCVS and European Veterinary Specialist in Behavioural Medicine and was made a Fellow of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons in 2018. She is an External Lecturer in small animal behavioural medicine on the veterinary undergraduate course at Liverpool University. In 2019 she gained her Postgraduate Certificate in Veterinary Education and became a Fellow of the Higher Education Authority. She is a Certified Clinical Animal Behaviourist under the ASAB accreditation scheme and registered as a Veterinary Behaviourist with the Animal Behaviour and Training Council. 

She sees clinical cases across North West England and has a special interest in the interplay between emotional and physical illness in dogs and cats and particularly in the role of pain. She promotes the recognition of emotional health issues in companion animals and the role of the veterinary profession in safeguarding the welfare of animals in this context. Sarah lectures extensively, at home and abroad, on behavioural medicine and is an author, co-author and editor of several books.  

Basically - when it comes to anything behaviour related - she REALLY knows her stuff. And you don’t get this good at assessing behaviour without learning a few other things - about people, clients, our profession, and yourself. Join us in this far-reaching conversation with a Sarah about career longevity, connecting with clients and with the greater animal care community, Sarah’s self-care challenges, behaviour medicine as a career and much, much more. 

 

Go to https://thevetvault.com/podcasts/ for the show notes, to get your hands on the answers to ‘the one question’ from our first 20 guests, and to check out our guests’ favourite books, podcasts and everything else we talk about in the show. 

We love to hear from you. If you have a question for us or you’d like to give us some feedback please leave us a voice message by going to our episode page on the anchor app (https://anchor.fm) and hitting the record button, via email at thevetvaultpodcast@gmail.com, or just catch up with us on Instagram. (https://www.instagram.com/thevetvault/) 

f you like what you heard please share the love by clicking on the share button wherever you’re listening to this and sending it to someone who you know will enjoy listening to this.

You know, those conversations that you have at conferences, back in the days, when we still had big bed conferences, when people are chatting to the lectures and asking questions, and you hear things like, this isn't really the books.But here's what I think, it's in those kinds of conversations that the best nuggets of wisdom appear, the nitty-gritty of real-life details that you can only get from here is and years of experience.
And it's exactly those kinds of conversations that we try to emulate on the vent valve, the clinical podcast.We don't want We want to hear about the challenges.The tips, the staff UPS there.This is how I do it.Go to VV n dot, super cast dotnet to join in the conversation.
Good evening.Ladies and gentlemen, this is Gerardo Polly.And this sorry I'm Gerardo Pollard.I'm Ubud him strapped and this is the bait fault.
Hello and welcome back.The interview for this episode is a little bit different in that.It's just me no Dorado, because Dorado had to rush off last minute to take some products plead out as we started recording her episode.So as a punishment for choosing saving some dogs life, over doing a podcast with me, he is going to do the entire introduction by himself.
Okay, go and it's free.Hi Team, Al guest today is a legend in the Animal Behavior Medicine World.Dr. Sarah Heath is one of an instrumental group in the United Kingdom.Who worked very hard to get animal behavior recognized as an actual science and a specialty in its own right.
As you'll hear in the interview.She started working in the field in the days.When many people believe that animals had no real emotions, which shockingly was not all that long ago.A goodness for dr.Sarah.Her colleagues right now before you think I have no interest in Behavior, so I'm not listening, don't make that mistake.
This conversation starts off around, Anna Behavior, but goes way beyond that.Sarah's a rock star when it comes to connecting with clients in difficult situations, for example, so there's something here for all of us.Humor, does a fantastic job.I don't know if I got enough.
But will engage a?I'll leave it in there.It does a fantastic job.Chatted to Sarah about Behavioral Medicine as a career path.The pros, the myths, the challenges, they tackle topics, like when the vet becomes the counsel, for the client, more than for the patient, which is a phenomenon that I'm sure.
Many of you are familiar with.They talk career longevity client connection, grieving cat self-care and much, much more.Please enjoy.Dr. Sarah Heath, that'll do pig.That'll do now before we start.
I just wanted to give a quick Quick.Shout out to a few of our listeners, who reached out to say, hi.Dr. Sheena, white.Dr. Susan.Dr. Bernie who surnames?I don't even know, because it's Instagram.Dr. Ivan Duran, and Nikki Griffin.Who's actually a student at my old vet school.
Thank you so much for getting in touch over the past few weeks.I love your feedback.She and Ivan, or even thank you for supporting the clinical podcasts.Thank you from the bottom of my heart for taking the time to reach out.It makes my week every time we get a message like that.And inspires us to keep having these conversations you guys are legends.
Now, onwards, welcome back to another episode.We are very privileged to have with us today.Dr. Always do this to do the British doctors Sarah Heath, but I want to say dr.Sarah Heath to give you a title.Are you dr.Of any?So now we are now.You are doctors, it changed.
Yeah.A couple of years ago.So that's on our doctors in the UK.Yeah.Okay, so that is okay, we have Dr. Sarah, he open, but only in a professional context.So it's you only use it.If you've got your FL CVS, or what your role College membership after your name, but you can't just use it all the time.
Okay, occasionally, so you're not, you're not booking flights.And doctors are here, then a okay.I'll see you there.Thank you so much for joining us.I really look forward to picking your brain and it sounds like it's quite a brain about that, anybody.
Graham left after the 20/20 Experience.This crash is here socially, absolutely zero.I've gotta start with this.I was doing some research on you and obviously, Behavior.Animal behavior is the big thing and I did wonder the think to myself.I bet you.
She has the worst behaved beds in the world.Have you got badly behaved pits?Or are they actually really big able to behave?I'm really, really fortunate that.I have two adorable cats who are pretty good actually.So yeah.Yeah, I'm Douglas at the moment.
Sadly.I lost my flat cake to to cancer as most black coat owners.Sadly the new.And so I'm between dogs.I was supposed to get a new puppy in June but covid came.So didn't get a puppy.So I'm doing you jog in 2021.
If all things improve and say another flat coat and sadly just until literally two weeks ago.I have three cats.And then sadly Sammy was run over three weeks ago, so And yet, the very traumatic in our household at the moment.Oh, only three and these behind his to littermates.
So one of whom severely traumatized, because he saw it happen.So yeah, red traffic accident outside our house.So it's all been a bit.I'm really sorry.That is very traumatic.So I have two cats now and they're lovely.I can't complain about their behavior at all.
Now, this is not it's not made to be a clinical podcast at all, but I am curious, have you.Is there a change in their behavior?Since since the accident you say same way?That is traumatized because of what do you see?I have you noticed it.Oh, yeah.Yeah.Sammy saw it happened and it was absolutely terrified and has taken a long time.
So yeah, he's struggling actually, he's still not going out.Normally.He still wants to be where people are.There's anything you two weeks early days, but yes, very definitely noticed a difference of yeah, he's really struggled.Yeah.That is tough.It's such a common question that Get in practiced in general practice as well.
When there is a loss of a pet and the owners always very concerned about the other pets and they want to know what can you do.My my answer is always been that they are pretty resilient beings.They generally generally deal with stuff better than most humans.
But is there is there something specific is there something that you've been doing differently to yours?Yeah, definitely.And I did actually use a, I am still using a nutraceutical and nutraceuticals are a little bit.And out there, in terms of whether there's enough evidence.And we'd certainly don't have a strong body of evidence in terms of sibo, controlled Trials of that sort of thing behind the nutraceuticals, but the theory of them is that they enhance dopaminergic and serotonergic activity, which would be beneficial at this time and haven't gone to the point of medication.
But I have had patients in the past where the grief has been long term and it's been going on for months.And when we do sometimes you Celgene, which is a Enoch says be inhibitor, these dopaminergic an action because dopamine levels are depleted in when you have the grief response.
So I'm be beneficial to give them a nation.If it's sustained over a period of time.Certainly.Yeah, haven't done that with Louis.Just using the nutria calm at the moment and also, just find her.Yeah, give him a bit of support in terms of going out with making sure that there's someone around at the moment.
And then gradually, hopefully get more confidence back.This is very interesting.Acting like I said, I'm this this podcast.We talk about non clinical stuff, but I think we're going to have to get you for some clinical podcasts as well or doing on me because I'm instant that is when it keep asking.But I'll bet I'll do to her from the from the actual are on the actual field advice.
I would ask more about the career and the professor then Behavior as a profession.Yeah.And how well it took us through a journey.First of all, so it's cool.And then what did your first couple of years?Look like to get you to where you are today?Yeah, might my So it's quite a complex one in that.
I never intended to be working with small animals.Never mind, actualized in something.I was going to be a dairy that I come from Cheshire, which is a part of the UK, which is very, very Dairy.And although we have no farming background in my family.
I spent my childhood on Farm holidays and then started to work on a farm.As soon as I was legally able to, okay, there.It was totally dairy.Dairy, dairy.That's all I ever thought about.And I applied to vet school to be a dairy vet.And yeah, and here I am very much not doing Dairy but I did start my career in mixed practice primarily large animal.
So 70% large, 30% small, practice that I went to after I qualified and is that for years?Therefore very happy years there.And I do have sheep of my own.So, do keep the Sheep thing going.So you've got to have some, some experience of larger larger.
Yeah, how did what happened?Basically, I was driven by Animal Welfare.Really?I I've had I always say I've had three very influential people in my life.As far as my career as is concerned.In terms of behavior.One was Len.Who was the herdsman at the farm.
I worked at when I was a teenager and he, and this doesn't sound that remarkable now, but remember, this was 40 years ago, and he used to talk about Out the cows to me, in terms of how they felt about things.
And if one of them was late, coming into the Parlor or milk was down, or one of them, didn't lie in their usual.Cubicle.He would always want to know why.And he was always, you know, there must be a reason she never does that.She would never do that.That's not normal for her.Something's wrong.
Yeah, and and all his thinking was very much about them being individuals and about them having feelings.Which against a was something quite unusual that time that started me on that.Off of animals have emotions.This is, yeah.This is they are they have emotional responses and started as early as that really.
And then I had a very influential person at College my large animal medicine.Lecturer was a man called Jim pinsent who was a phenomenal?That phenomenal human being.I owe a lot to him in terms of just learning about life and about the art of veterinary medicine.
Something that mr.Vincent really believed him, but it was a science.But there was also also an art and that you needed to always remember that.And he also had that feeling that there was this other dimension to the non-human animals.We were working with.And then I had a fantastic boss in my first job p28 who also had more of an inkling of this other dimension.
And it was him, who actually was using some Uncle David Appleby as a behaviorist at the time, coming into the practice and again thinking that I qualified over 30 years ago.It's a it's very different.Yeah.To now and it was unusual for a practice to have a behaviorist coming and giving advice to dog and cat owners about their pets and I was fascinated by this Branch into small animals of what I'd already become familiar with in terms of welfare and larger animals.
Yeah, so that really was the beginning.Awesome.They're dead.That is quite extraordinary.You say, it doesn't sound but you're right with the that was a delenn who who was wondering about the feelings of the animals because even remember when I started, it's not all that long ago.That's a start.
To get longer traded 28 years ago, that 25 years, until my back to my first lectures, but when we did animal handling, I remember one of our lecturers saying be very, very careful of putting emotional situation.Animals.They don't work like that.So they were almost trying to tell us, don't you know, that by into that bullshit animals digest and a career and animals makes you think, of course, that's not accurate.
But when did that thinking change?Is it?Because it does seem quite quite recent, or has it changed?This is Are they still scientists to say?No?No, you barking up the wrong tree or is it is it widely accepted?Now that there is a very slow Eeveelution I think over time and I say the word people right back when I was a teenager who did believe that and were saying that so it's not a new thing but you're right there was a body of science that didn't accept that and it has been a lot more recently that people have actually taken this much more seriously.
And actually going to show up non-human animals, do have all three Aspects, I talked about the health Triad.So as we do in human medicine, so having emotional cognitive and physical health, that all interplays with each other and they all affect one, another and that has gradually become more accepted.
But Jack pine sap, who was a Estonian biologists who sadly died a few years ago, two young, but he was probably one of the turning points when he wrote his book about affective Neuroscience.When he talked about emotions in humans and nonhumans, Talked about the fact that these systems applied to non-human animals as well.
And so I think it was a big turning point, but I think it's been a gradual Evolution and there's been many different people along the way who have contributed to the increased understanding.But the veterinary profession is slow some ways.I love fashion.I wouldn't do anything else.
It's the best job in the world, but it does have a little bit of a tendency to be a bit resistant to change and and takes a while to get on board.So yeah, I think, I think Unfortunately that profession has been a little bit later.The party really in terms of understanding.
The animals, have this Triad of health issues and try out of aspects to their health.So there's a lot of work done in animal behavior outside of the veterinary profession, possibly before the veteran profession, really took it seriously.So we were just focusing on the we, as a profession on the, on the physical aspect and very much ignoring that aspect.
Now, this is, this is skipping ahead.Your story and I want to come back to your story.But you talk about that resistance to change within our profession.Are you are one of the accurate in saying, you're one of the earliest people to actually treat animal behavior as a as a science with, in veterinary science.
As an actual specialty.Is that is that accurate?You you helped to establish it as as field of specialty.Yeah.That that basically I'm old is well.Yes.Yeah, absolutely along with Several other very, very important people in the field and dear friends and colleagues as well.
So obviously there are many people who contributed to it.But I did in 2019 was awarded a fellowship of the Royal College for recognition of the fact that I established that many Behavioral Medicine as a discipline.And was there a lot of that resistance to change when you when you started with this renewed, trying to understanding to make noise about Behavior?
As a specialty that lots of people fight you for it.Oh, yes.Yeah.I remember right at the very beginning because I was he spent a lot more of my time with non-vets in terms of behavior because there weren't vets doing Behavior at the time.And I think the profession would have liked to have put me in a straitjacket at me and I really and then gradually gradually, they start to go, maybe there's something in this.
So, yeah, I mean, things have definitely changed hugely, although, sadly.I was talking to a colleague of mine in Belgium, who's another one of the early people in the field.She was just talking to Yesterday we were having a social chat, but we were also a little bit about workers with that's and we can't affect disease, isn't it?
And but we we were talking and she was just recounting a couple of cases.She'd seen recently where other people in other disciplines have dismissed her concerns about pain in these particular patients and basically told the client know, there wasn't any pain and my colleague didn't know what she was talking about.
And that is the The thing that does still happen, sadly with a lack of respect for Behavioral Medicine.As a discipline.We do still have that experience.Sadly button.So sometimes people don't see it as a valid discipline and dismiss what we say, even though and also dismiss what what we say about other aspects of physical health.
Because Behavioral Medicine is not just about emotional health.Behavioral medicine is recognized but in the Triad we talk about emotional cognitive and physical.Cool aspects.We diagnose, chronic pain on a daily basis in our patients.We diagnose it.
Cushions And Addison's disease because we see the behavioral manifestations of those forms or disease dates.And so, it's a constant thing that we are diagnosing physical disease.Suspecting physical disease involvement, all of the time.
So it's not that you step out of the physical disease to work in Behavioral Medicine.That's not, that's not the case.It's a it is a discipline that involves physical.As well, but I think the recognition is not there of that aspect Behavioral Medicine.Okay.Why do you think there was and still some still is to some degree, some of that resistance in seeing it as a reporter as one of the real, let's say one of the hard Sciences of veterinary science, my flippant answer to that is we're not enology you need ology on the end to behavior elegy.
And no, but seriously, I do think that The word behavior is a problem because I mean we call it Behavioral Medicine in the UK and across many countries.There are some countries that call it Veterinary Psychiatry and there was a lot of resistance in the UK to using that term and I think I think it was right to be resistant to it because it's a very loaded word.
In the case a psychiatrist is still and this isn't true.I've got friends and colleagues who are psychiatrists in the human medical field and they do not just give out medication.That is not true.And they do exactly what we do.They look at the interplay between physical and emotional health that they very much are still doctors and they are not just people who send out medication, but there is a view of psychiatrist that that's what they do, that they literally just medicate people.
And there was a danger that that was the implication as well, in Veterinary, Behavioral Medicine, that dog trainers and people who are non Veterinary, clinical behaviorists that they did all of that.That sort of stuff and Veterinary behaviors just gave up pills.
Yeah, and that is not true and it's certainly something that we have to really fight against in recognition.That it's just a discipline.That's all about medication.And as I say, it's education about that.So I think the resistance, a lot of the resistance came from the fact that they were it wasn't seen as being a whole discipline as a sort of involved as it is.
And I remember some good friends and colleagues people, I qualified with, you know, You can lie saying, well, he had a tough day choosing between those two license drugs.So there's not a lot to your job is there and that sort of banter going on as well.
And I got asked and I still do get asked, do you miss being a vet?People said to me is being that I think you qualify for that and then you do behaviors, like, no idea, very Behavioral Medicine.I am a vet.I'm no less of it than Anybody else out there in the profession, whether they're in Industry research.
We're all that today.I have not given it up.But there is this concept of oh, you stepped out at the profession.No, I didn't.I just stepped into a discipline.Absolutely where behaviors one of my favorite Specialties and and I don't mean doing it.I mean the fact that you there so there's really complicated cases.
You can actually shut up because I find them really challenging but for that reason it isn't just isn't just medication.It pays its really multifactorial.You need a lot of lot of time and a lot more brain.I think that and I have but dealing with these.Go back to your story though.
I we skip right ahead.But so now you want to be farmed with and then you develop this interest in Behavioral Medicine, animal psychology.Every Behavior allergy.Let's call it that in effect.It will start on this podcast with a little needed to ology.So what makes, how did you make that transition?
How did you turn it into a career?Especially when there was no such.You yeah, well, because Peter, my first boss was already interested and to the point of inviting somebody from externally to do Behavior within his practice, and he was really supportive of me getting interested in it, involved in it.
And I was I'm very grateful to my nan Veterinary colleagues as well.David Appleby in particular, but also other non-veteran behaviorist who I worked with in those early days because there wasn't the support from the profession.I got a lot of support from those people and I've always been a Big advocate of making sure that we have both Veterinary and not non Veterinary, Behavioral Medicine behavioral to our vets doing Behavioral Medicine on vets, doing clinical animal behavior working together.
I've always been very strongly an advocate of that and I do believe in the multidisciplinary field and that as long as we know what we need is, mutual respect.And in the UK certainly is a big push for this Veterinary.LED team approach to To Behavioral Medicine because often in general practice the time element is not available and therefore having people who will work on the cognitive aspects of that case.
It's actually learning and changing responses.It's really important to work with those people as well and have a multidisciplinary approach because you may not have the time to do that as well.And we obviously now I work in a referral practice that we have a team.
So I employ that and Rehabilitation trainers and said Rehabilitation trainers.The rehab part of our team, does the cognitive application of the therapy?That's needed.We do the emotional diagnosis.We are responsible obviously for medication as well when necessary.
But it's hugely a team approach.We also work very closely with physiotherapists with chronic pain, specialist with neurologists because it's so multidisciplinary.And so yeah, I think my I was very I'm very grateful.Full to the non Veterinary field for supporting me and those early days for giving me some kind of legitimacy, which I think helped for the profession, to also, listen as well.
Actually, there's another dimension to this.That use the vector profession needs to be involved to very Progressive approach, almost to embrace that the help of non-veteran e things in in our Veterinary careers or but it's a within the profession.I sometimes get the feeling that we are really quite protective over over.
It's my case.It's our field.We don't want anybody else to interfere and you don't know what you're doing.And you know, we'll do it all.You see it in dentistry.I don't even say density, really get the egg white.Hope it kind of, it's almost 11 hours, but it certainly seems to be that.
Well, you need a veteran agree to do anything with this.It's a bit, a lovely brooch.I like that.I think the other area that obviously, as someone working in Behavior.The other thing that I do on a daily basis is chronic pain management because chronic pain is Is such a massive part of Behavioral cases, and so we do all our chronic pain management in house in our practice and through that.
I've worked very closely with people like, dr.McInerny.Dr. Gwen Covey, Crump in the UK, really amazing anesthesiologists and as an analgesic Specialists, and they've done so much to help us as a practice improve.Our understanding of the work that we do in that area.
And that has led us to work with physiotherapist.And so, again, a multidisciplinary We approach that actually we need to work with other people, to give our patients, the absolute best quality of care that we can give them.Yeah, it's almost recognizing your limitations.
Not so much on what you can do with just TimeWise.It's actually actually getting rid of some of the jobs.And so that you can focus on where your your maximum value lies for the for the patient and and in the business is suppose.He was making sure that their welfare is protected.
It in every level.So yeah, absolutely.So starts within the practice in terms of our multidisciplinary team, but then also, as I say, we also work very closely with people outside of the practice as well.So, so Matt Gurney as it's just said in, chronic pain management, then Doctor Clara spread, she's a neurologist who we work very closely with as well.
We actually do multi-disciplinary rounds with her and so my residence.I've got to Residents who are doing their residency for the European College of animal welfare and Behavioral Medicine.And then clever speech has residents in urology.And so we have multidisciplinary rounds together by Zoom so that we can discuss cases.
And I think that again, it's really important that the residents are learning how important it is to work with other disciplines.Yeah, that's a valuable lesson.So, so your journey, it doesn't sound like there was a seminal moment like a lightbulb moment.When you indicate I wanted to behave, it sounded like you started on a path and just keep keep digging in a new set of games, deeper and deeper in.
Into the field and actually built this field around you which is incredible story.Different story these days these days.It's a well-established as you say is not a neurology.But this I know many people who love it from University days, if one of our listeners are is out there thinking.
Okay.This is what I want to do.I love it.What is the what is the journey?Look like these days to do get into the kid, really into the behavioral field.Well, I think obviously it depends where you are in the world and you've got people like curse.Saxon Jackie, Lee over there who are Specialists who I'm sure will be able to advise you better about the route in, in Australia.
Yeah, that lie in the UK, then our route is, first of all, usually a master's level qualification after that school, because there are a couple of Masters now available in clinical, animal behavior.They're not that specific, the Masters level.So you will be mixing as well with people from other disciplines, which I think actually is a benefit.
Can.Yeah, so that's the Masters level we've got Two in the UK, one at Lincoln and want to Edinburgh particularly, but we have other courses as well that offer different aspects of clinical behavior and at that sort of level.
So but those are the two masters levels ones.I'm most familiar with and again, that's the personal experience as well.The Vets.I employ here at behavioral referrals of all done.The Lincoln Masters says that that happens to be the one I know most about but there are others and, and basically, from that The progression within the profession is that the Royal College and this is a massive step forward.
Now has advanced practitioner status in Behavioral Medicine ongoing, Companion, Animal Behavior.So you can become an advanced practitioner level, which I think would be the equivalent to something like your membership.Is that?Yes, and so, as I say, I, I'm talking from iike a and perspective, the advanced practitioner status has become recwell recognize now, and there are a lot of, you know, it's really Missing numbers of that's now getting Advanced practitioners days and that's brilliant because they can then do Behavior within their practice.
They can take referrals from local practices as well.They're not specialist level, but they have a great contribution to make to the behavioral field and to making sure that they've your field is recognized.Yeah, then the next thing, if you do want to take it further as specialist level and that would be a residency in the European college.
So this European College of animal welfare in Behavioral Medicine.Obviously, you've got your Australia in New Zealand College over there.There's a college in America as well.And so there are in different areas.It would be different colleges.But the European College Residency program is the next step to working towards your specialist status, and the career or they'd say that the working life of a originally behavioralist, often oven.
We have these ideas of what before you set off on a journey on what life looks like and often a romantic idea.If I'm gonna do this in that, are they things about your job that you think people have a misunderstanding about that?They that they believe or think that's there.That that is completely different with it's good or bad.
I guess, I guess the best example of that which is has both good and bad is the interaction with humans.Hmm.There's the animals.We deal with our companion animals.They have a caregiver involved in their life and it's a bit.Like II know.I talked to my human colleagues who work in in child.
Psychiatry.And it's very similar that they have a parent, a caregiver who is responsible for actually engaging with the advice understanding.What needs to be done and actually doing it because we can't, we're not home with them.We're not there.
We don't give the medication.We don't do the behavioral modification program.We don't change the environment.It's the caregiver that does that.And that that is a positive, very positive thing because you get to know people.I wanted things.I love about this job is that That I get to know people at a really deep level and I often speak to what the general practitioner, who's referring after?
I've seen a case, and we're talking about stuff and I go, I've known that person for 20 years, and I didn't know that because you don't get that depth of interaction with the caregiver in general practice.Of course, you get to know some very well over long periods of time in general practice, but you often don't have those deep conversations.
Can, you don't get to know the whole family, the whole set up.So it's a very This little thing in terms of your connection with them as human beings, which is something I did.I like, but can also be challenging at times.And we sometimes say, you know, if I'm going to do another degree, I think I should do one in social work because probably that's one of the things that we do spend a lot of our time doing, we're social workers, because we do need to work with the emotional impact of this.
These these issues really impact on the family, they are Impact on the animals welfare, but they truly impact on the welfare of the humans who live in that household as well.And so yeah that I it's a positive and potential challenge at the same time.
Really?I think yeah.Do you find that that what you just said there about the behavior?Problems impacting on the Family's?There's a go both ways.Do you see a lot of animal behavior issues arising from families or individuals that are not doing well.Emotionally very death.
Lily.Yeah, if you have a challenged household in any aspect, then all members of that household will be affected whether they're human or non-human.They're going to be impacted by the environment that they live in weather that you know, that's social environment and I guess people are familiar with my work.
I developed the sink model of emotional health in companion, animals, and that model talks about the fact that we all have this little sink, which is about our own emotional capacity.When you live in a group, then those sinks are interconnected.
And so, you know one person has a very, very full sink but has an impact on the other individuals living within that group.So you can't be looked at in isolation.And I guess that's one of the things that complex about what we do because I sort of case last week of seven dogs in the household.
So one dog has an issue that the caregiver has brought to the attention of the GP, but actually in order to diagnose and deal with that one dog, I've To assess all seven because all the other six because they impact on each other.You cannot look at one dog in a multi dog household.
And one cat in a multi-cat household in isolation from the other individuals that it lives with.Because so often we find the one that's having a behavioral presentation, that's challenging to the humans.So that's the one who gets referred actually from an emotional point of view, from a Health and Welfare point of view of the individual may be suffering, actually the least out of all of them and that we've others.
In that group who have got far more serious, emotional health issues, but they are not demonstrating Behavior that's challenging to humans.So therefore they've been overlooked human perspective, but they're impacting on that other animal.Who then if the presentation that is impacting on people.
So to say there's the squeaky wheel scenario, mr.Capulet.Yeah.Absolutely.Yeah.That's the one we see as problematic.But actually if we look at the whole household we find out that actually it will know.That one has got problems, but boy are brother.If we don't, look at this one, we're never going to make progress with that one.
And and and it may be that sometimes that one we need to make progress with this.A human not a nonhuman, but obviously that's not my job.And our job then is to just advise that people seek help from appropriate channels for themselves.Because if we don't improve the quality of life in the welfare of the humans, living in that household, we equally may never make full progress with the nonhuman.
An animal either.Okay.There was dead was I'm sitting here thinking while your job is is very complex because you have that human component and I always knew that behavior.There's always there in those.They're running joke, you training the humans, you're not actually training the animals, but I haven't considered that it that it often is a consequence of humans having having emotional problems.
But you say you don't actually deal with that you recognize it and you recommend recommending.Yeah.So what I would always do is is talk to them.In fact, so many times myself, and the other vets in my practice, say, say that, you know, the end of a console had one few months ago, and the lady said to the end of the concert.
She said, thank you so much for all your help with the dog, but no one's ever.Listen to me like that.Hmm.So that's also, our job is to allow them to be able to speak and to recognize.And to say that's relevant.I can't help you because I don't have qualifications, but there are people who can and I really urge you to try and tap into those.
Sources because yeah, you deserve that, help as well.And yeah, it's important to recognize that.Is it a challenge sometimes that already?Well, I'll backtrack even in SGP level, many of its sort of tongue-in-cheek, complain about the fact that people often come in to the vet for their own see, emotional session so they can offload all of their problems on the rates and we have to play the role of psychiatrist in the in the background as well, but I would imagine or It more of an issue within the behavioral field.
Did you find that that clients dried across that, boundary more of coming to you, for support for themselves?And the animal is almost a proxy animals proxy and think they're genuinely are concerns about the Health and Welfare of the animal.But sometimes when I'm explaining and all of us in the practice, when we're explaining about the emotional health of their animal.
So many times they go.Oh my goodness.You're describing my son, how well that Planes.Why?My son does things.And and then you say, oh, obviously, I'm not involved.I can't help you with that.But there are people who I am.So if you feel that he needs help them.Please ask someone because there is help available.
But yeah, but often that it's their realizations and they haven't said any of that as just as you're describing, what's happening with the animal that they kind of missing they're going.Yeah.That's it.That's, I understand that completely.And yeah, either myself or a family member.
Rule, whatever has passed challenges in that department as well.Have you ever been tempted to make the job to human psychology?Because you you didn't know you shaking your head in agreement.There is nothing in the world.I want to do other than being of that.Okay.I'm just as passionate about that as the day I qualified and which the students often comment on actually at Uni because I teach it a little bit vet school.
And they often say it's so refreshing to meet someone who's been qualified for 30 years and loves it as much as you do.Because so many vets, sadly.They are not quite as happy about being, that's 30 years into the job.But I did always say have always said that if someone said I could not be about, so they absolutely said, you know, it's not an option.
You can't do it any more than a child psychiatrist would be my next level.We would definitely be children.Yeah.Yeah.Yeah.Suppose.There could be a lot of commonality there between between the between the two Fields.So that would you just say they're about that?
Find Career and still loving it that much.What's the secret?Why?Why why?Why do you still love it so much.I love the interaction with the the unit of humans and non-human animals that that interplay between humans and nonhumans.
And even in my Dairy Days, that that's what I loved about working with land and particularly was that.Yeah.We, we cared about them.He care genuinely cared about them.They were a job.They were.It was a Economic functional relationship, but there was that that empathy and that interaction was very, very important.
And that's something I think.Is it drives me passionately.It's not not just with companion animals, but also with wildlife and the environment and the world, and this interplay that humans are just a tiny, tiny, tiny part of this great group of living things.
I love trees actually as well.But it's, oh, yeah.It's that into playing with things around you that I think that this Job allows me to do that for a job.Just kinda cool that you can do something that you really enjoy.That doesn't mean I don't have days that I'm overwhelmed with work and that's one of the problems with that with any job.
I think any value with too busy sometimes and and we do it is life.It's not, it's not a job and that sounds like such a cliche.It's not a job.It's a lifestyle, but it is.And I joke, he said, yeah, we can't stop talking about it and even in our general chats, we always end up talking about work.
Work.But my L, my youngest son, actually, he's 28.And he said to me what?One day just a few weeks ago, when I saw a cat and he's had your amazing mum after all that time in the job.You see it cat, see a dog and you every time you acknowledge it you interact with it.
You you're pleased to see it.Even though that is what you do every single day of your life.But when you see an animal, you can't help yourself.You have to acknowledge its existence.Students interact with in some way and make some kind of have some kind of pleasure from the fact it exists.
And so.Yeah, that's guess that that's it.Let's hope that's a gift and it's great that you get to share it with the with the world.Then, would you say about acknowledging animals?There's one of my, one of my favorite books.It's a fictional book, but one of the character descriptions of a very nice person.The description is something along the lines of when he drives down the road.
He lifts his head to dogs in the street in the dog smile back at him.And that's just such a Beautiful, you know, he's a nice person because it's kind I find it's been really obvious on Zoom actually in the students have said it when I've been teaching because I've done a lot of teaching online obviously as we all have in this very short year and and if I'm talking and I'm teaching and then an animal comes into one of their screens, I got.
Well.Hello.What's the cat's name?Knowledge?The fact that an animal has come onto the screen.So and I'm just wondering, out loud.
Is it a concern for a clinical?Wait, if you don't have that or you lose that like if you if you get to it, let's let's turn into question to you.If you get to a point where you do you lose that you see an animal, you go, you know, I just can't I just can't be bothered it.Would that be the sign that?
Maybe it's time for a change.I imagine that ever happening but but yeah, it's yeah, I guess I guess I mean, I'm I think the pressures of the job.I don't think we should.You know, it's not all roses.Mmm.And I don't think it's right to give that impression to people.
Coming through the profession either.Although I desperately want to speak to younger vets, about the fact, you can still love it 30 years on and not to feel despondent because it's sadly.It is a profession with a lot of pressure and sadly.There is also a massive problem in our profession, in terms of the emotional health of the humans involved.
And that's a sad, very tragic, sad.Reality of our profession and Something we really need to address because we all generally.That's our give us, give us the other people who enjoy looking after others.Enjoy.Caring.
Enjoy having that, and that takes its toll on you, and as well, so I think it would be wrong to give an impression that it's all roses and that I am not very good self-care as a human being.And something I struggle with and I have to put, yeah, I have to have other people.
Apple nagging me and making sure I do because I fall into that trap very much.So.So I think it's important to acknowledge that and they to the world, you know, that it is.It is important to acknowledge.There's another side.So have you developed strategies that have you learn ways of getting better at self-care or know?
How do you maintain that that positivity and and avoid the burnout trap?Yeah.I think that is.It is hard.Yeah.I have.I have hobbies.I'm sad.Covid-19 has been a very difficult year because I'm a massive Liverpool Football Club supporter.And I spend every other Saturday at home games at anfield and obviously have not been able to do that.
And I've really noticed it really noticed.It's my it's a massive outlet for me.I've watched every match on TV since we've had covid, but that's not the same.And there's a, there's a camaraderie about it.We have a, what's that support group of Liverpool supporters that we all chat after the game ever.
What's up, or a zoom call after the match to pull it apart?And Yeah, all of that, but it's not the same as being together at the match.It's not the same as going to the pre-match drinks and after match, drinks, and know, having that chatting and it's just not the same.
And I've massively miss that this year, my other hobby swimming, which again, I was not able to do for months at a time this year because all the pools were closed.So, yeah, those things I have found it difficult from that perspective.And I guess the other side of it, is that the Vets might lot of Very close friends or colleagues to because we spent so much time, working.
Our social life is inextricably linked into our work.Particularly those of us who are on the international lecturing circuit.So Kirstie, for example, over in Australia, and I normally see her quite regularly and, you know, throughout Different congress's Here, There and Everywhere around the world Gonzalo, who lives in Portugal.
Another close friend teeny and Belgium.These are colleagues but friends and Also, you know, you see them because you're working and because you're traveling with work and that's been taken away this year.You not getting that networking.Not just and also the mental stimulation of we've had online conferences and thank goodness.
I've been very, very great and helpful, but it's it misses that social element of being together because that Congress is you sit at the lectures, but then you go out for dinner in the evening.You talk about what you've learnt outs of each other and we're all learning for all, you know, it doesn't matter how What specialist level, you are, you're learning every single day and I go to conferences to speak and then I listen to the other speakers because I got I can learn from them and then that you miss that definitely.
So this year's been a challenge.I think, for many people in lots of ways.Yes.Absolutely.I do, we've been so fortunate in Australia.We almost forget, forget that it's happening.A lot of what you talked about the, and then it goes back to your asked about your work as well in the What people don't expect about your work at tell sounds like you're talking about connection, connection, relationships and connection and that, and it's interesting.
So many of the Vets.We talked to on the podcast.And again, we hand-picked kids who seem to have a happy long fulfilled, careers, that they still enjoy years and years down the track.And that's one of the key things every single time.They thrive on those connections with its with the clients with their co-workers and everything else have you, I would imagine that you would be am asked about now.
Add, especially because you have to get rid of intimate with your clients more.So then it in a GP bit.As you say this, that, that ad home setting.And sometimes people what I've seen in the concept room.They can sometimes be a little bit guarded about behavior issues because they worry that they've done something wrong and that so you really have to break down those barriers and establish that that intimate connection before you can start working at all.
Have you have you picked up tips that you?Well, it's a shareable tips.I'm sure there's a hundred things you do subconsciously, but other things that you go look behave.Five things you need to do to establish a good connection with the client, or with anyone, I guess.The first thing is to be open and non-judgmental and that that's easier than it sounds.
But I've had.I remember students sitting in with me and coming out of the console and getting just nothing shocked.You, when people are telling you stuff that this is a This this term in psychology of positive non regard that you must always have this positivity towards somebody's information and but not give any judgmental information back.
One of my problems is my face.I have a very expressive face and that one of these sites have had to learn is to curtail my face.I'm told that when I'm chairing meetings, that I have to be really careful about my face because it gives it away if I'm gonna really rather than so.
Yeah.I think that's something I've had to work on.It is in consults to listen without judging and and your, that is so important in Behavioral Medicine, because you have to get all the information first and then give an opinion about it.You can't give an opinion about it before, you've got all the information, because as soon as you start to give that your unfortunately going to close doors potentially because if they understand the way you're thinking, and then go.
Oh, she's not in like that then or she has that feeling that they think that doesn't fit with what she's just said.Makes me worried about telling her x, y, z, or Zed.So the history taking is so important and and has to, and the, even though your mind may be racing ahead, you Probably walk through that door, seen the dog made an emotional diagnosis.
Already your apps that you know, what's wrong with the dog, but you can't express that until you've got the information in from the client because otherwise they won't tell you everything.And even then there's always that last little twist at the end where they go.
Oh, and you know, I miss that.How did I not cover that one?So, hopefully, after so many years of experience, I'm pretty good at getting a comprehensive.Of history, but there's always going to be that little piece of information that takes you by surprise that you go.
Oh, gosh.I miss that.How did, how did I not include that in my question?So yeah, so I think openness empathy try and sit in their shoes because so often you do look at it and go.Well, of course, like don't need, you know, you to tell me your dog or cat is doing X, Y or Z.
And I know it is because I just walked into this room.And of course it is because all the kinds are there, that that will be the problem that you're having.And but they are the ones living there.They're the ones who are in the household.It's their household.It's their way of life.It's there.Yeah.Those you wouldn't do things that way.
But that is their way they're living and say to be empathetic to try and see it from their perspective.I think is also probably one of the most important things and that's not it can be a very hard thing that that's one of my took me from 15 years to to learn that.
That non non.Mental illness and empathy but at the end of a busy week in a busy day.Sometimes you just very hard to be empathetic.But the what's taking me a while to figure it out is that you think that?Okay.I'm so tired.
I can't be empathetic anymore.Where is the flipside?Actually happens you go.I'm so tired.But if when I'm empathetic things go easier, thank connections easier my work, it's easy and I actually get energy from that to some degree to some degree.Whereas, if you go in there with that.
Try to stupid people.I should have come in last week, right?And then it just, it just turns you hold a black around you and you can your mood gets darker and it's harder for yourself.I think the problem is as well that we are also emotional animals and we read body language.
We don't do it very well compared with other species, but we do do it.And I think we need to be aware of the fact that it doesn't matter.You know, how careful you are.If you're, if you're genuinely not interested in that person they can tell Yeah, they know.
And if you walk into your Consulting room in that dejected, downstate, then they will know that that your your heart isn't there.The you're actually a very annoying.You, you wish they haven't come.You'd rather be having a cup of coffee, and they know that and then they won't be, they won't feel understood.
And therefore, they won't give you the information you need.So, your job will be harder because they will, they weren't intentionally do that.They're not going around.Not gonna tell you anything then.Not an intentional thing, but they will hold things back because they don't feel that you want to know, so they're struggling to give you information.
So what you just said, if you can however hot on, I'm not as makes it sound like it's easy.It's not easy.But if you can leave, whatever it was at the door that just happened and the and try all if you genuinely can't, that's where our profession I think has to learn that we as employers.
I've to say it's fine.You don't have to see that case.Yeah, opteka go and have a coffee.Someone else will do it.Because that's what we're not good at because we were up against it.We're working to tight schedules with admitting that.
We are not in the right.Place is incredibly difficult to do in the busyness of practice and the busyness of our life.And and the fact that that the client expects, this to be top-notch hundred percent the time and that we're not, we're human.We have bad days.
Yeah.Days when we can't just switch it on and and carry on.We have to say now.I can't, but we need to be supportive in our teams of that so that the rest of us can pick up that somehow, whereas when we tend to be slightly judgmental because we all work so hard, we all put in those extra hours.
We all stay late.We just expect.Everybody will be able to do it all of the time and I think probably that's the things that come from and it's and it's a culture to culture that we Are we get tortured University?It's literally from the day.You start, they say, okay, now you can't be soft anymore - I'll get it done because he's not going to get through exams.
If you can't just step up and then in our workplaces as well and is that for you don't want to let people down like I would I would hate it and practice to say to one of my colleagues.Hey, listen, I can't to consult.So I just don't feel emotionally up to it into it.So you really do have to have an extremely supportive environment where people feel that they Can can say that, but you spied on that what you said before, with the client knows it straight away.
I in my last roll.I dealt with it with a serious client, complaints ended up on my desk.And so many times of when I heard the words that I heard these words.It says I just felt that they didn't listen, didn't even listen to me and that and I know that vets not doing anything wrong and they didn't intend not listening, but something that was that mismatch between it's just not that connection in the client just felt and listen.
To and then when something goes wrong, then there's trouble.Whereas if you if there's a connection and something doesn't go right clients will go, that's fine.The intentions were right, but I didn't feel that you had agents were, right.So I've now I'm going to play.That is what Jim, pinsent taught me, the art of veterinary medicine.That's what he meant.
We almost that.I really wanted to call this podcast, the art of it.Emits, the adventure sighs, but you're outvoted me.It's as it turned out the way it felt.Yeah, that's what Jim pins had talked to us about us, too.It's and what really really stuck with me, was that it?
There is, you need the science.It's the science, of course.It's a science where scientists, but if you don't have that art then which is the bit that connects you with the farmer or with the horse trainer or with the the caregiver of a companion, animal.
If you don't do that, if you don't have that art, then you can have all the scientific knowledge in the world, but you're never going to be able to convey it.You're not gonna be able to have that.That connection, but one of the things I think covid has taught us as well.And Cave, it has been a gosh and experience and a half, but is that it's going to change our attitude as well to come into work when you're sick.
I remember when I first qualified and I went into a fantastic practice and it was said a bit glibly and tongue-in-cheek at the interview, but I was, they did say at the interview or be it slightly sarcastically.And we do have a sickness policy.If you have three broken legs, you can have time off and Say and that was their attitude, you know, we do not expect you to have time off sick.
It doesn't exist.Yeah, you, I don't care how sick you feel, you get yourself out of work bed and you get here and that was very much, a common attitude as well at that time.And I'm not in the slightest.Suggesting people should stay off sick for no reason.Absolutely not.
But I think covid is going to teach us that as well, that actually no don't risk.If you're not feeling well, working is not what you should be doing.If you are.Actually ill and maybe we need to expand that to emotional health issues as well.I spent a lot of time thinking about that when I was leaving the team certain an after-hours clinic, so there is definitely that bright as the guy who had to sort out the roster.
When somebody finds in sick, you find me a couple hours before your overnight shift.I'd be in the shit when you call in sick, so I would really want you to come in lady died, but I didn't like I didn't like that because I didn't want to have that sort of work environment because It's a high-pressure environment and it's pretty short lifespan for, for emergency vet.
Not not lifespan short, career agree with it.But certainly it's, I really wanted people to say, look.
I'm not up to it.I want to get over.I spend a lot of time trying to find solutions for that having having back updates on call on a second rusted to come in.But The practicalities it's couldn't quite get there.But I think if we all work towards that to say, well, how can we make it more acceptable for people not to come in when you sick because we don't we don't I'd certainly it's been a while since I've been in the UK, but the interest rate of it, nurses will call in sick.
When they see way to a lot, they come to work because they don't want to let the team down, which is admirable it.Really.Yeah.It is.But it's also harmful probably in the long run.We also need, we need an education of not just this.Not that's not.This is not a.I think it's a it's a human thing because we also need the clients to understand.
Yeah, if the phone and say we can't do the consult say, because the vet is sick, that that is, that is genuine.And and that actually, if someone is ill, they literally cannot do their job.So, therefore, we have to have understanding and that's not just about anything, is it?
I mean, we all get upset if an appointments cancelled because someone's not well, or someone doesn't turn up to do a job and they say they weren't well, we have that mentality as humans.That what you mean?You were.Wow.Like, you dying.Now, this is what you should have been here.My lawn or, you know, doing my guttering or whatever it is that you've got.
Someone coming to do is like I think really ill like the early enough to not be here.So that's not just a Veterinary thing.I think it's a human thing and maybe that covid will make some difference to that.Excellent.Sarah.How are you?First time?I've got a quite a few more questions, but I want to be respectful of your time and not just keep yammering away.
I have many.Changes say I talk too much.I want to if you're right for more questions.I want to change tack a little bit.So other than the ablest, you're also a business owner, you round this, you run this business and I was Googling your business the other day and I saw something on there.
That's really interesting.And I think a great idea.Am I correct in understanding that you run a subscription service for vets, with their can access you for to pick your brains, really on cases.Yeah, we have is called.The behavioral advice subscription service and basically, you can join at different levels.
So it's open to General practices and the different levels giving you different levels of contact.So you can have just email contact and you can write up to being able to send in videos of cases and histories for us to look at.And then we also offer a stress audit service.
So as at the higher tiers of membership of that service will come and do an annual stress audit within the practice.Okay.So yeah, we've got a number of Now, who remembers at varying levels and we use that for giving right from generic advice at the lower levels of subscription to much more specific advice at the higher levels.
I think it's such a great idea for any specialty to have that because I'd imagined before you head there officially, you'd still get people phoning you for him advice and then you're handing out free advice.But so obviously great from a business perspective, but I actually think from a from a GP, vet level.
That's really nice because I would often have situations where I would love to find a specialist, but I feel bad to phone because I don't want to waste the time.We didn't have a system in place where I could be could bill me for your advice.So, I think it's a, I think the subscription is a, is an excellent idea, is that this is working.
Well, like I said, yeah, we get to know very well and other practices that use it, occasionally, some members of practice as well.We find that the one Out of the whole practice is always the one who's behind the the messaging.
But yeah, I think it's something.We've set it up a few years ago.And I know that Matt Gurney, who I've spoken about before is a chronic pain, specialist in the UK.He's just said something similar up for chronic pain or her.Think it's actually because he and his husband are both anesthesia analgesia specialist.
And I think they do it for the across the whole spectrum of anesthesia and analgesia, but a similar sort of idea that you can subscribe and then have different levels of information.We give counts on webinars to members at different levels as well.So when we run our CPD that we do through the practice that if you're a member of fast as we call it the paper advice Subscription Service, then you get discounted webinar access as well.
So trying to encourage CPD as well.It's not just about oh ask us and we'll solve your problem, but also will try and get some more education for the team as well.So that's another part of it.Really, that's really brilliant.I really like that.I'd love to see more of that in India.
Other Specialties as well too.I think it'll take a lot of pressure of the were Specialists and imagine it is a guilt thing about.You want to help your colleagues, but you also go.Well, this is my time that you said you utilizing we aware that that expression Behavioral Medicine.I guess that there's a limited number of places they can get that information from.
Yeah as people want that information, but they're not quite so many avenues for getting it.But I know I've spoken to other colleagues neurology specialist as well, who also have the same.And want to be able to help more.So yeah, I think it is something that might become popular in other disciplines as well.
Excellent.I'm looking at the time, we should probably start wrapping up.I'm going to get I'm going to ask you a few last ones.One more Behavior related thing if there was this one thing about your field of specialty about your work that you could magically get into the heads of all the veterinarians who you deal with, or all the weights are in the world and attitude or belief.
So something about behavior and whether that's clinically how, you're treating a patient so that you could change, you can say, okay, everybody everybody now knows.This one thing.Is it anything like that that you would love to have people to know what you think.My main one is that non-human animals have, emotional cognitive, and physical health?
Okay?That those three things are not divorced from each other.So when you're looking at physical health problem, remember that animal is feeling something and thinking something.At the same time, whether you are cop hating it and for a painful lesions, Ian, whether you're preparing it for anesthesia, whether you're looking after in recovery, after surgery that it's not just, you know, a cruciate repair.
It's a dog with a cruciate repair who is feeling something and who is thinking something and that that is important, because it will impact on their physical health as well.So, it actually is important to you as a vat that you understand that, that is an animal.
It's not just a leg.And I remember when my youngest child was very, very sick as a baby.I spent a inordinate amount of time in hospital.And, and when I was there at one time and he was very sick.There was a lady in the Next Room.We were in single rooms with dark, very sick, children.
And she had a child and who had a really bad community of fracture to his leg.But whilst in hospital, had contracted pneumonia at the age of about five, four or five.And he I remove this particular day, the surgeon came to visit him in his Ward and they put the x-rays up on the screen on the viewer and he looked at the X-ray and he looked at the leg and said, he He can go home and walked out and you sitting there with an oxygen mask on his face and leg is attached to a child.
Yeah, it's not the leg.And I think that is what Behavioral Medicine does.I think it makes you remember.It's an entire patient.It's a whole patient.It has physical emotional and cognitive health and we are we are the healthcare Specialists for non-human species.
And that means we should be consistent of the whole Triad all of the time.I feel like that's the should be where I make a joke about the agents there.Yeah, but when I was spending all those times in hospital, we actually had a game as mums who were constantly on the, you know, we used to play spot spot the surgeon and so they came through the door onto the ward.
There was a little passageway of about 3 minutes walk, and during that time, you have to decide if it was a medic or surgeon, before they got on the wall.We got very good at it.I'm gonna, I'm gonna defend our surgeons and advantages.
I know they're different, they're different, but I think.And what about?So you took that that's addressing everybody else's thinking.What about yourself?Is there anything that you've changed your mind about in The Last 5 Years or even if it's 10 years or so?
Something you used to something that you used to believe and that you figured out and went.Oh crap.I was wrong on that all the time.Yeah, because we Learning every day.I as many many people who work in Behavior, once talked about dominant dogs.
So yeah, that's a massive change.And I at one point had less understanding of this into play as well and used to think more in terms of cognition being separate.And so, yeah, I mean, learnt huge, huge amount and I think the day you stop learning is the day.
You have to retire.If you're not learning anything, you shouldn't be doing it.It's a not evolving thing.And every single time, you're with a patient.Every time you were the new client, your you learn something about how to do things better.That the sink analogy.
I developed in 2010, but developed it and it's an evolving concept and it's not something I developed 2010.And that's the way it stayed.It's constantly changing and constantly adding to it or fits to it.I think.Oh, that would make it easier to understand her from calling my shower moments.
That's my thinking time standing in the shack.Oh, that's a better way of saying.And so, like I came across this thinking energy.When I was reading up about you.You mind, if I put it, it's a brilliant explanation.Is there some way that I can find a link to it, that that's open access that I could put in the show notes for people to look at the process of keep saying this in the process of being written up, because I work too hard and don't write things up.
And if people want to contact me to get information about it, then that's absolutely fine and we can send out and the diagram, but yeah, it's I do need to write it up properly and then they'll be a link to it.There's a you know, there's a there's a YouTube video of it.I think it's a V8.
They actually it was drawing it and she credited uses.This is like the same Heats.I will go.There is a little video which is drawing those things a bit.You should send me the link to that.I will.So you can see things.You said at the beginning about my, the fact I've been around a long time and I am old.
And when I never said it, you said it.Rooms with that is is I'm not very media Savvy as in social media.And I'm really not very good at that.I have Emily in my practice who's trained in social media.So to do things for the practice, but I am absolutely terrible at it myself.
So I live in this bubble and aware of what's going on on YouTube and aware of what's going on on Facebook.And in this little bubble, shielded from the social media World.Unfortunately, I think I'm with the in-between group where I'm, I know that I should, and I do try But I also did quite get it because I'm a little bit too old.
So then I just bumble along and doing too bad social media, which is even worse.All right, let's wrap it up with that.With us standard questions.This has been amazing of, it's really decide so much that resonates the other.I'm going to jump back.
We what you say there.But once you stop learning, that's one of the other key things that I'm fine.I'm going to make a list of the, of the key things that happy vets have, and it's given connection and continuous learning.Never ever, say all I know enough times.One of the key things that seems to keep its happy for much longer and accurate, is that attitude towards learning?
So I love it.Thank you so much.Do you listen to podcast?If you're not media savvy?Are you podcast listener?Yeah.I listen to the anfield.Wrap up.Your graph, is a Liverpool, Football Club and podcast.So, I listened to that all the pre-match, build up all the pace match analysis.
So, yeah, I do that.And, and then another one is go.Girl called Holly, Holly on my short-term.Memory is going to let me down now and I'm not going to remember.But conversational conversations of inspiration is a lady called Holly Tucker, and she she interviews people from various walks of life just about what they've done in their life and why they've done it.
But also at the end of it, she gets them to write a letter to their younger self.That's what would you tell your younger self about how you were?You things differently?What you've done?Or whatever.I just find it really Fascinating People from people from the body shop and general a, some of them in business, some of them Charities.
Some of them nothing to do with Veterinary, just life things.Yes, I like those but I must admit.My main podcast is.Yeah.I feel rap.That's the second football almost at soccer.That's the second football podcast.We've had from a guest.What about previously is such favorite podcast?
Was not Liverpool.Oh, I forget what it was.Anyways, it was definitely not livable.So you In good company.And and then we wrap up with a very similar one to Holly tadka, instead of a letter to your younger self.You are at a conference and it's assumed conference.So because it's pretty trendy and they've got all the veteran in your graduates of the world listening to you.
And you have a couple of minutes to give them one bit of advice.It doesn't not specifically vet or behavior related any advice.But what would you tell them what thought you leave them with?Wow, that's a difficult one.Yeah.Oh, I guess.Never stop learning, probably be it in a nutshell.
Who's always be open to learning and probably, don't, don't do what I do and be better at self care.So, that's probably been my biggest obstacle throughout.My life is that I'm not good at that and that has implications.So, yeah, look after yourself, believe that you are, you can never, you can do whatever you want.
You can believe in yourself, I guess, which is a bit pot Kettle and my children, if they ever hear this will be laughing their socks off.It's so not you.But yeah, I guess that's the thing I've learned and if I was telling someone else, I'd say the end.If you do look after yourself and the other stuff does follow, and sometimes doing it the other way around can make life hard.
It's important to hear it from somebody because it's a becomes, a very tried saying, yeah, self-care self-care.But to hear somebody say, like, I'm not good at it, when it has consequences.So, we don't just say, we mean it when we say break the selfie.Well, the first part is the recognition of that fact, so, did you bring cognizer?
We going to have you got to get better at self K is here.Sarah.Thank you so so much for your time.That's awesome.It was way way Beyond we have.I think the there's so much wisdom in what you do in the, what you've learnt in the work that you do that.
I think you have you don't have to have any interest in Behavior to take a lot from this conversation.Thank you very much.Thank you very much.Just take care.Stay safe and well done.Yeah, let's take 2021 brings.Better thing.
Here is a quick question for you.How many online courses have you subscribed to in the last year, that you've never quite finished?All maybe never quite start, or if you like me, you're feeling that you should be doing some ongoing learning because now that we have no more conferences, you feel you're falling behind and not staying up to date with what's best for your patience, but you just can't quite bring herself to commit.
I get it.You work hard, you have other interests.The time is precious.And sometimes the last thing you feel like doing this.Earring at yet, another screen or text book, especially staring at more wet stuff.Which is why we're making the weight belt clinical podcast.I wanted clinical content that I could listen to, in my car, on the way to work on my run or while trying to drown out the noise from my kids.
I wanted a podcast that was fun to listen to.That was not too boring.That was not just someone reading an article and something that would keep engaging enough.Red learn at least one or two new things every time I listen and I wanted to choose the topic I listen.To couldn't find this podcast.
So we decided to make it.We've been partnering with Specialists from all around the world in small animal medicine surgery and emergency and critical care to bring you concise, highly valuable, highly practical podcast episodes, and if you don't mind me saying, so we both think they're pretty cool.
I learned a lot.I learned a lot today.That was super cool.So when you're ready to lift your clinical game to a new level, go check it out. @ VV, n dot super cast dotnet or click on the link, in our show notes.
If you subscribe before the end of January 2021, then you'll get your subscription at a 30% off early bird rate forever.And if you're ready to commit for full year, you get an additional 30% off, so go to Vivi and Dot supercars dotnet.
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Dr Sarah Heath