July 10, 2020

#33: Seeing the full picture, with Victoria Johnson.

#33: Seeing the full picture, with Victoria Johnson.
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Season 1

Victoria Johnson is a specialist veterinary radiologist and the founder and director of VetCt, a global leader in teleradiology and telemedicine. We dig deep into diagnostic imaging as a career choice: the how’s, the why’s and the why not's, and everything else you wanted to know about it. Victoria tells us her secrets to maintaining a healthy relationship when your significant other is not only a vet, but also your business’s partner - a situation that is not at all rare in our profession. And of course, I can never resist asking a fellow parent,  especially a parent who is such an accomplished business owner, about how they balance parenting with caring for what Victoria calls ‘the other child’ - your business. We also get some pro tips from someone who’s been immersed in working remotely with teams over Zoom long before Covid forced the rest of onto video conferencing on how to successfully communicate remotely without losing the human touch. 

Find out more about Victoria’s work at https://www.vet-ct.com/au/small-animal/telemedicine-diagnostics/. 

For the show notes or to check out our guests’ favourite books, podcasts and everything else we talk about in the show, click on the webpage link on the episode page wherever you listen to us or visit the podcast website at https://thevetvault.com/. We love to hear from you. 

If you have a question that you’d like us to answer with the help of our guests, leave us a voice message by going to our episode page on the anchor app (https://anchor.fm) and hitting the record button, via email at thevetvaultpodcast@gmail.com, or just catch up with us on Instagram. (https://www.instagram.com/thevetvault/) If you like what you heard please share the love by telling your friends and colleagues to check us out.

Actually love for you just said about the positive approach to this because I think there is so much negativity about I think with good reason.There's a lot of hard things about being a vet and but it's very nice to look at the other side of that.
And what are the positive things?And one of the things you can do to get to those positive places.I think that's very good to focus on that actually.In this episode, we speak to Victoria Johnson a specialist virtually radiologist and the founder and director of vet.
CT.A global leader in teleradiology and telemedicine, we dig deep into Diagnostic Imaging as a career choice, the house, the whys, and why Nots and everything else you want to know about it?Victoria tells us his secrets to maintaining a healthy relationship.
When your significant other is not only a vet, but also your Filing the situation that is not at all rare in our profession and of course I can never resist asking a fellow period and especially a parent who is such an accomplished business owner.How they balance parenting with caring for what Victoria calls the other child your business?
We also need got some Pro tips from someone who's been immersed in remote, working with teams over Zoom for years.This is before even covid started.And before the rest of us had to join onto this video.Francine bandwagon and she shared with us how to successfully, communicate remotely with our team do with team members without losing the human touch.
But before we even started the interview, we fell into an unplanned to conversation about the responsibilities that we have ourselves as vets for our own well-being and how sometimes we sabotage our own happiness.So let's get straight to it with Victoria Johnson.
And I think the reason I personally feel strongly about it as I was quite - the first five to ten years of my career so I had ended as I change and as I started enjoying it more, I look back at it and went a lot of that negativity was just my own fault to some degree.Yeah, they were, as you say, there are challenges but there's challenges him in every career and I made, I made myself miserable and I could have been could have been had a much happier, 10 years and my first 10 years if I had the right sort of support and mentoring.
So that's what I'm trying to provide to other young.Wait.It only it's excellent night Ali.I think part of the problem is why you will have such a fantastic time in vet school.I don't fret.So it's like the best time of my whole life and then suddenly, it's like a hell of a shock to come out and do ya like, because I definitely had a pretty rough couple of the first years.
And I agree, I look back in if I'd had more support and the why attitude, possibly, and not coming out from such a high of 5 years of partying.Excellent fun.How can I was involved in a initiative?And the goal it was it was quite an honorable goal and honorable Mission which was to try to increase awareness of the difficulties that veteran professional space and they do basis, dealing with difficult decisions, life and death decisions.
Organizing patients, Financial conversations, difficult clients, those kind of things.And I was like, you know, actually that's a really cool thing that I think going to be aware of.But then I realized after it was like almost futile, it's a futile mission, right?And it's also a desperate one.
It's like, Like please help us when we should be going, you know, look at you can't change the way that they are.But we should be able to look into ways to change and how we are and how we react to them.And how do we set up a salsa with habits and skills and systems, which make sure that we are, you know, like motivated energized or be out of bounce back from those difficult conversations to be able to go into the next public console.
You know, those kind of things and having wind down, rituals whatever they are.Like, so you get home and you It connect with your family but it's never easy but I don't think the solution would be investing time and asking for pity.Yes.Quite right.
I completely agree with you.Yeah, absolutely right.And you, you won't change owners.You really won't affect if anything has become, I don't know.With, with the generational changes, it's going to be harder and harder to change owners that they are different to the owners of 10 15, 20 years.
Well, this is the other aspect of it of the performance stuff as I see it is.You can't just go talk to her this and tell them to be different, but you can't change them through what you do.So some of the stuff that we complain about is a little bit self-induced.So when people complain about bills in that, or they feel funny about money and they had on us, there is a little bit of self-examination that should go on to SeaWorld that.
How did I set that up?Did I do my actually a little bit accountable for that?I'm not saying there aren't assholes in the world.There's lots of those and you have to just live with them, but the probably a lot of it is you Change them a little bit by how you do it.That's hmm.I really and essentially the this funny things about the way our profession set up in some way.
So we had a thing last year where we did like a Roundtable discussion about some of the telemedicine services were doing.But as a result of that, we've got sort of quite a few big hitters in the UK came in, with one of them, was your CBS president of the time.And he said something really interesting to me is like it is interesting how we deal with financial conversations with aliens.
If you go to the dentist in and you go to the end it and you see the defendant has the clinician who does the dental treatment and then you go out and you get the bill and you discuss that with the practice manager in the receptionist.You never talk money with the dentist.
And here again, never took money with the doctor, but as vets, we often do talk money with the clients that they need, that's of it.And in some ways, it kind of changes the relationship a bit.And I thought that was quite an interesting point.I'd never really thought about it.Like that is if you ones one of the doctor and one The kind of business account side of things.
If maybe we should question try and separate those conversations more, I'm all for that.I die, the red probably has to demonstrate the value of what we're about to do.So so there's an important aspect of that but I do think it would be I try and do that in in my in my emergency clinic.
But that's mainly because I'm really terrible at talking about money, I get all awkward about it.So it's my strategy is I just I talk I demonstrate the value.Value and then I'll just say I'll send in a stupid out to the front, receptionist will talk you through it and if you, if there's any questions then I'll pop out.
We can we can discuss other plans but I'm terrible at Dorado.They are very good at teaching.This to David renier insist that you say the plan, you say the estimate and then you have to shut up instead of a military going or what we can do is just do less and you know make it cheaper II very much lead towards that or we can just deciding how I print out this but go look at it if there's a problem.
We'll talk about it.I think quite ready.That's the way to do it and I think one of my friends, he's an equine fat, he's probably better at the second surgeon.He always says, do a good job and charge properly and I think having that confidence to say that is very important actually and knowing that we value what we do but I think a lot of vets are naturally nervous about doing that.
So it can you grab think it's a hard thing with it?Where are you?Sounds good sounds really cool.I would like it.Well, my partner is one of the best invoices in the business so he so I kind of got a like pick up the skills a little bit but what my my I have a personal coach and he is a public speaker and he listened to like a couple dozen about consults and in and what he did is, like he goes, what I've watched you guys time and time again.
I see the body language and you guys present two guys, and you like the our Veterinary team.This is, this is how it Like and you replayed this kind of like thing, and we're just like, oh look like that, because that's what you look like.You don't even look at them.You talk about you, Pat, the dog.
The way they want me to dismiss is going to be around about $1500 petting.The dog look him in the eye.It's gonna be $1500.Ya know, my value, it's true.No one knows, right?
He goes, like, there is no confidence.Anything you guys saying right?At the end there, when you shoot have absolute certainty, they take it on board.Have they take mmm-hmm and then we just created an open discussion around it.So how did you go?All it was so hard.I was shaking and, and I didn't want to say in there.
I counted three, one, two, three, and then and then I said, you have any questions?Write years?It's sort of like, all we could do this as like counting.This is, it was like a real deliberate, kind of say, look in their eyes and count to three.You must have done it a couple of times they're like, okay.
This is all right, that's good.And you know, the standard, you know, the standard which you need to deliver the consult the deliver the estimate and then you just can't go back from that.You like that's how I have to do.I didn't do it well and that one guy she could do that and next month.So it was really good as quite a quite an eye-opening experience.So did it.
Did it make a difference to the average invoice or to the turnover?Like did you when you started that training?Could you, could you see it in the book?I don't know if we, we definitely saw it in the average services for client.Or some of our lower income earners lower lower, lower Blues.
Because you could just, you could hear it in the, in their estimates, right?And then the language was changed into what we like to do is coming best for fluffy to do this.It's kind of like when what we need to do is this did it a dare?And it's like a kind of like, but it took out, it made it easier for them.It's just like, this is what I need to say.
This is what I need to do.Follow the formula, so it made it easier for them, and then also the same time, so they but it has to be how to be what I realized.I have to be Consistent reminder, consistent reminder.Every couple months.We're going to go through this every couple months, so so we're actually going to go through another round of consultation excellence.
And so we call it and reiterate that and because we get new vessel of time.So, mmm, good on ya and such a good approach, more practices should be doing that.They really should.I think it's not easy is not easy, but it was it just put the power back into your into your court because you saved Because you believe it, so say it, because you believe it and they say, no, it's not.
Then you have no doubt in your head that it was about the way you delivered about it.He was the doubt, then, like it goes.It's because the, they just didn't like the plan, or they didn't.They couldn't afford it.That's it.It's not like, I didn't deliver it powerfully, so I don't know.We're talking awesome stuff at we, I recorded.
This is what we start.I'm javadi Polly.I'm given temperature.And this is the vent valve.Victoria.
Thank you so much for making the time to join us on the Whitfield.I really look forward to chatting to cool.It's a great pleasure to be here.Thank you for having me.I want to start this episode.Quite practically.When I'd read about you and was researching you, in deciding what we want to talk about it.So many aspects of you as business owner and entrepreneur and parent but radiologist primarily that's sort of the starting point where a lot of this was built from.
So I want to talk about Radiology it's not a topic we've discussed before Radiology as Specialty.And as a, as a career choice, I'll start with a very simple one.What was, what was your decision making like in deciding?Yes.I'm going to become a specialist radiologist.
Yeah, no question.And say, oh, I had a few years in practice.And when I first graduated, I was at Bristol vet, school in the UK.And, and I, I found those first few years in practice, I really enjoyed them, but I also found them quite tough.
And I was a mixed practice vet.As they used to have 20 years ago, fewer fewer and fewer of those in the UK, I think.And but essentially, I did, I did some cattle work, I did some sheep work, I did some horses and small animals and just a bit of everything.And I felt really like a jack of all trades, master of none.
And I started to get a bit, I guess fed up with that.And felt like I needed to try and improve my skills.I did some emergency vet work for a while which See.It's why he guy said background just come from.And as part of that, I got increasingly frustrated that I couldn't make a diagnosis, because I wasn't very good at radiographs X-rays and I wasn't great at ultrasound.
And I started to think, you know, if I could just nail that, if I could just do get ultrasound and interpret radiographs really well, I think I could be a much better vet.So I started to look around and look for, residencies, in training programs, to do that.
And when I actually got a residency in Radiology, My plan all along was to do that for three years and then go back to being an emergency vet and a general practitioner, but just have a lot more skills in radiology and actually somehow along the way.I got sucked into the world of Diagnostic Imaging and never went back and so that's pretty much how it happened.
I would say one of the things I was very much inspired by a lecturer in Radiology.When I was at the University of Bristol who it to me, it just seemed like she could do magic with Ultrasound transducer and he's called Francis by.She's at a very unassuming.
Lovely gentle person.And but I remember these very impressive surgeons being completely baffled by a case one day and she would just simply lay on an ultrasound transducer and tell them exactly what was going on without any invasiveness.
I just remember thinking that was magical, really.So that's kind of where the attraction came from.I actually before I started the emergency clinic, I try to get into any Imaging Residency because I love the the magic wand 11 ultrason ultrasonic machine.It's my Advocates, become like my right hand in practice.
So I wanted to follow this, the same journey.I seriously considered rightly applied for a, for a, for a residency, but couldn't get, it is a very competitive field.What, what?What does it look like if we have a list that is Young and is on the same sort of trajectory?What's the process these days?
I don't know if it's the same in Australia and the us and that, but how do you go from GP practice practice?Agitated to specialist radiologist.That's an excellent question and I think it's something I should also saying come clean on when I wanted to do this.If she's such a long time ago it's 20 years ago, I started my residency and it wasn't a very well-known specialty and actually there was only me and one other candidate that applied for the position.
I went for to be a resident and I think really, I probably wouldn't have got one of these from this date these days.And I was very lucky at the time, essentially, the process.These It would be that you have to apply to a Residency program at somewhere that has an improved residency and there's three types of residences.
You can do you can do the fellowship Australian route.Obviously there's some places in Australia as well.I believe that offer the American college residency, a CVR and all the European European College of Veterinary Diagnostic Imaging and it's usually a three year program.
Some people offer a four-year program and It's pretty full-on.It's hard work, and it's a lot to learn and a lot to concentrate on.But there's also a kind of joy to focusing on just one topic and in some way I always think this is it's actually easier to be a specialist that than it is to be a really good GP that I have so much respect for my friends who are GP vets more than I did for myself as a specialist because you're trying to own a smaller topic so much easier.
Everything about radiology's in is know everything about being a Jeep That they even there.It's hard and there's a lot to concentrate on lot to learn.It's a small area, it's a smaller, so that makes it easier.But the residences of quite competitive I would say, generally I'm a great believer in people going to residencies having already got some practical Veterinary skills under their belts.
I think it's better to do a residency when you've already done Veterinary profession for a few years and normal Vector, it just gives you an understanding of what a day.GP vets life is and types of cases, you see?
And I think it's a radiologist.It's our job to be helpful to GP vets as much as we can.And it's easier to do that if you understand the job of a GP there and what they're facing and it's also more.You can be more relevant and I know somebody a friend of my own you hadn't done much general practice.
Once looking at a mass on a cat's head, on a CT scan and saying it was fluid-filled and it Sick caps on the outside and what on Earth could this thing be?Well, any G people would know us.And halves of course it happens.Pretty got to do the GP side in order to get your different order and to understand what's common.
Basically saying I love that.That's the that's the same as iron colleagues.You went straight into emergency and then emergency internship and then worked in emergency and then I joined her she got me on with my job at I don't know.The service.And then because I came from GDP and she would just go try.
I can't see the one.This is like it's it's a each year just that and nothing about.He is just like, okay good, no, I'm not gonna do this.You go in there.Bring the dog at the back.We'll do it together.Okay, but you go in there there's like a yeast infection is what I do with it.Now I'm sure it's a used to fix it coming and it is a little bit now people.
Identifying that they want to be a specialist at an earlier age and that for me, I never even crossed my mind to be honest.Until I've done a bit of general practice.I kind of didn't really even think about it as a career path.But now, I think we get emails at my company from people saying, hey, I'm a vet student in my first year and I want to be a radiologist and sometimes I want to be Kenny radiologist, which massively worries me.
And I usually get that from as they look finished, your vet degree again.Don't just in general and get familiar with GP work and then maybe consider an internship and then a residency at that State.
I think that's a kind of good way of going about this but it's lovely that people really want to do this specialty but I think we are better as radiologist if we've got that background.I think makes it a lot more jobs.I can understand what he's saying, it's like we aim for Mastery right Mastery gives us a feeling of, you know, like that.
Chief something.And like it, exactly.You see before jack of all trades, master of none when you get done fast like masteries and Elusive thing, right?It's never going to happen.But the still the sense that you've got.You've got some sense of Mastery in one area as opposed to like spreading it all everywhere, you know, the and it's a confidence.
It's a confidence that that spreads to other aspects of your life knowing that I'm pretty good at this.One thing, does it is a nice feeling to have?I think that's, it's really important.Want to know that I agree with what you just said, you're not yet.
It's impossible to master all of it, it really isn't but the smaller you make the topic the easier it is to feel like you've got a sense of being better at it.I guess I'm a great believer in having a I guess what they call a growth mindset that you always learning and you're always open and you all is trying to develop and get better at what you do.
I think that's really important, but it's certainly, I Found it much harder to bgp that when I do to be a specialist and I have tremendous respect for people who do a good job in emergency or in general practice, it's hard.It's there's a lot to know just when I get back to how the journey to getting there, how do you get into The Residency?
Because that's the first time you broke, all the things that are young with can do or courses or Loops.They have to jump through to get them first in line to get those competitive residences.Yeah.That's it's very very competitive these days and it's become a really popular special of me and I think for a lot of different reasons and I think most people who, who offer residency programs and I think one important thing to think is you're going into a program and you're going to be there for three years, one of the things that the supervisor that program is now is that you are your own nice person to be honest.
And that actually, there's a lot to say for that and people don't talk about, Enough.But you can the need to fit in there for three years and they won't, you be passionate about what you do to be somebody that they can work with.For those three years to be somebody, he's Keen to learn and to absorb as much information as you can during those three years.
I think it's things.You can do to try and increase your chances.People who've done things to show, they have an interest in imaging before.So maybe they've done a publication in imaging or they've done a project or they've gone and some courses to improve their ultrasound skills and stuff like that.
That's all really relevant.But I think actually that the person needs to feel that you're going to be a good fit for that environment.You're going to make the most of those three years.Be somebody that really gets involved with a team spirit and gets involved.So that's actually quite important with saying, to hang up, 10 Publications in imaging beforehand.
And at least that's how that one of the things I would choose on passion, passion, and motivation is very important.I am also curious so it sounds like you like you like being a radiologist are they if you had to advise a youngster that is it a good career choice in it?
Let's flip it around.There's this many positive things, but I think that that you don't like why their misconceptions that asked you.If you guys have about, what it's like to be a radiologist that that maybe should be that we should be corrected on.Yeah, that's it.
That's an interesting thing to talk about and I would say There's this person comes essentially, so you in the human field radiologist, the name for being the kind of no personality doctors who just sit with patients and they're really quite boring slightly unpleasant people.
They have this reputation, human medicine, I believe, and I think you have to be a person who is happy to sit in a dark room, looking through large numbers of images, because that's what the job is.And you have to be very detailed driven and very precise and very patient at times.
I like it.You might need to go through things the number of times before you see the lesion?Are you going to have that real investigative?Get to the bottom of things tight mind.So I think these are all qualities and you obviously are going to be a real one thing, it could be a pro or con depending on how you look at it, but you're not dealing with pet owners anymore.
So I think that's very different, some of the other Specialties, so if your ass Actually stop them ologist or a specialist surgeon.You're still going to have a consultation with an owner that stage things as a radiologist, you don't see.And I'm gonna anymore now, that could be an advantage or a disadvantage to look at it and you don't, you're all your interactions are with other veterinarians and I love that.
I really love that.I just actually love that.So I think that's an incredibly kind passionate people who are just trying to do a good job for the most part.So I really enjoy the new types of interactions.And but that's something that's different.I think there's something that's happened in recent years which which worries me and we probably should address and Radiologists have become very well paid and that's because they can work in a global market and do being tell Eva orgy across the entire globe.
And it's become a very well paid specialism.So that's okay, but I think what worries me is that people?Now start thinking I might go into Because I'm driven money side of things and that really worries me because I think is that it's important becomes cited properly, but I think we do our job because we care about the patients and and that should never become.
I'm going to do a job because I know I can make it on the cash.That's not really the right driver.I think it's a resort company.Try to encourage people to do this job because they care about the patient and they're trying to make a difference.Since to the patient and also a difference to the GP that he's asked us about those images.
And I think that's very important that that is the driver, helping a patient.And to go back to the example of people who contact me in vet school and say, hey, mon the student I want to be a tele radiologist, sometimes that's followed by because I know, they make really good money, and I always say that should be a driver.
You should want to be a radiologist because you want to help and make a difference.And as you find it, absolutely.Intriguing and fascinating that we can look inside the body without actually cutting the skin.And that's a wonderful thing about Radiology.That the way we can do, CT reconstructions the way that ultrasound works.
And you can make a diagnosis of something in a wonderfully non-invasive way.And really make a difference that patient that that to me is the driver.It's very important.It's almost like an accountability right?Not just accountability to the coin.It's an accountability, social accountability to The owner and the pet.
And and if you don't see that then, yeah, there's one there's no passion.There's like yeah, I can, I can see what you're saying.Sometimes, you do want to get up and go to the to go, do your job or go, do your practice, and be a GP, or emergency vet or whatever.But then, if you have this level of like, you know, I'm going there because my clients need me and they need me, my, a game, because these pets will suffer.
If I don't mind game, then, you know, you, you, if you don't have that, then you potentially just turn up like a robot.So I can see.And And allowed the idea of what really saying there.Which is, like, almost like a filter.It's like, I'm not going to hire you.If you're here for the queen, you know, it really has to be a bigger purpose.
Now, it's that's absolutely.It has to be big about and to me, that that makes so much happier veterinarians.So, I think if you go to bed every night and you think, you know what, I really tried my best today, I tried my best for the patient's, I try my best for the owners and my colleagues, then then that's even if you didn't quite get it.
All right, you know, you really tried and that I think makes them from much more professionally, satisfying career.And whereas, yeah, I think that if the driver changes from that, then then we're not really being treated.
The reason we went into this profession in the first place, I grew up wanting to be a vet, from the age of about 12 or 13.I was like sweeping the floors in my local vet practice.Trying to see what the vet was doing and learn but you want to hold on to that, actually, it's really important to hold on to that that passion for the And for the pets really.
And yeah, radioed is a bit of an odd one, and you can, as a television, just not see an animal and that's quite bizarre.And as a veterinarian, we as a company, really encourage all of our Radiologists and Specialists that work with us to do a clinical job as well.
I don't want them to be sitting in front of computers all the time.So we encourage people to do split roles either, you do some radiology and baby boom.Putting images on a screen.But also you going to some ultrasound in a practice and you meet meet some pets, that's important actually in you I think keeps it real.
Food.So, How did you get to that point?You know, how did you get to the to that feeling that that is what was needed for your team, to have the more balanced and more rounded and stuff?Was it because you went through and had you hired radiologist to adjust fewer computer screen, you know, sitting there.
And that was what they did.They did their level of performance and diagnostic still start to drop away.Or did you feel they started disconnect?What was it?The thing that made you going to think that's kind of the balance because I'm sure it would have been like, hey so much easier if I guess just Since one thing rather than have split kind of responsibilities.
So how did you get to that point?Yeah, they there's a lots of different models for doing tell you radios.The model that was in place.When I started this company was a model that didn't really appeal to me and I wanted to do things differently.
The model that was in place was basically radiologist reporting as many cases as possible per hour as many hours of the week as possible in order to make good.Commercial businesses and I didn't I didn't fit that.It's not really me, it wasn't the way I wanted to do things.
So I wanted to do things differently.And and so, I tried to set this up in such a way in that we are genuinely listening to the needs of the Vets out there who are relying on a radiologist interpret, that images.And in order to do a good job of that, you have to stay relevant relevant.
I think a very important word in this there.Danger with radio, just sitting behind a screen.Never seen an animal that they become irrelevant quite quickly because you don't get as much feedback in that scenario.You see some radiographs x-rays.
You write a report you send it out with unless you have a good fit on the other end.He's got the time which is rare to tell you, hey, this is what happened and you were right?Are you were wrong if we loved we loved today that by the way, and if if you sit in that environment for a long time, you can get quite disconnected.
Acted really and actually just start to believe that you're right every time which is a dangerous thing.So someone I did want to keeping people in crackitus as well is that they stay relevant, they see what's needed in a clinical situation, they see the pets, they stay up to date.
A lot of people who are Radiologists, working a specialist practice and therefore they're talking to other Specialists, they understand what a surgeon needs, what an opthamologist neurologist needs.And that keeps them, I think more Cutting Edge more relevant and I think happier as well and and happy a bit comes from.
I actually did a lot of television shows you the first four years.When I set this up, which was almost 24 hours a day 7 days a week because when you start a business, you kind of in the thick of it and that's not very fun.And to be behind a computer screen that many hours, it's not very healthy often.
So I really recognized early that actually to have the balance and And to see family and friends and do some sports and discipline.Cool work and some great Ellie Radiology work.That was a much better makes everybody.That's excellent.I've been going through your through the B ET website and I was fascinated to see all the different aspects as well because in my mind is exactly that model that you talked about the Radiology means.
Yeah.You see in those two pictures and we tell you what, what we see and that's the end of that.But you guys do quite a lot of other things in the company as well.There's something about 3D modeling.I did you tell me about it?Have you, what are you excited about for, for your company, for the stuff that you working on for the and and what what can veterinarians expect to see from the, from the Imaging world in the next five to ten years?
Yeah, no, thank you.I think.And I am a victim sometimes of my own excitement and enthusiasm about multiple different projects.So they redo tons of other stuff and we actually increasing think about ourselves as a telemedicine company rather than just telling radiology and it's probably other things to be D.
Alongside CT scanning and 3D printing became a thing.You could print out bones and create models which is kind of cool which enables Tea plant, you can plan surgical techniques.You can even practice for surgical technique in advance, so, that's pretty cool.
So, we got into that and we still do that.And from day one, I've been a massive believer in education and I strongly believe that vets are people with very active intelligent Minds, who like to keep growing and learning all the time.
So soaked in the beginning, we've tried to make everything we do educational.So we run educational courses and we actually had you online student courses as well in radiology and which are really fun and interactive with quizzes and bits and pieces like this.
And we teach Radiology residents, we teach General Practitioners about Imaging and then our latest and biggest Venture is that we started a telemedicine hospital and the idea behind that is that any vet can call and speak or have an interaction with any specialist and about those.
Those cases where you just as a GP that need a little bit more help and this is targeted at trying to help patients.That can't be referred.They we really do appreciate that.Referral, hospitals are amazing and do a wonderful job and I have huge respect for those environments.
And, and if I had a sick dog, who had something complicated, I would be straight off to my local referral hospital.And but there is a pool of patients who could benefit from specialist input.He never actually make it to that physical referral and that might be because the owner doesn't have enough money to get to go before a referral, or they can't travel or potentially.
There isn't that type of specialty available at local hospital.So we're trying to fill in the Gap.And so essentially, if you're a GP and you're dealing with a tricky, Ophthalmology case, you can get advice from an ophthalmologist and you can get advice from a neurologist for tricking, Urology case.
And the way we Do that again, is in at Alleyway.So for Ophthalmology, we have an Imaging guide as to how you would take photographs of the eye and what we need to see.And then Urology, we allowed people to submit videos of what the patient is doing videos of the neuro exam.
And and then we can do guided consultations with a specialist and with the aim of helping the patient but also helping the Vets making their life a bit easier and increasing their professional satisfaction because we want them to interact.Ian and learn from it.
So okay?We jumped way way ahead.And like I so it's a, how did you go from a specialist radiologist to that CT?Like, what was that?What was that point?My mind, you just like, you know, like I want to try some different or you know, what was it?Yeah. - what's it say?
I had been an.So I did my Radiology residency and enough to with, I went to America to the University of Pennsylvania and I was there for a couple of years and then I went To Australia, wa went to University.
Murdoch University had an absolute fantastic loved.It almost didn't come home, and then I came home for a bit to the EK and worked at the Animal Health.Trust quite a big Center of Neurology UK and then I went to Florida University and work there for a while.
So I kind of see when you're reading specialist, you bought it's okay if I could possible thing and I think it's a good possible being a vet because that's a very Very career.You can travel with, well, it was pretty coronavirus, and but it's also the past will be a specialist because there's always lots of interesting roles for specialist and I liked teaching, so University jobs were really interesting to me and I think everywhere you go, you learn different things and you pick up different things.
But as a result of all that, I'd met a lot of different people around the world and then they started to contact me and say, hey, would you mind just having look at this city for me?I would you mind, you know what?Crazy girls.And that kind of grew and grew.And eventually, as I was just kind of a book are better organized this so then I kind of just organized it better and then I thought you needed help with this now and got more people involved and it kind of grew organically like that did.
I almost didn't really intend to do it and then as it grew, I started to think about how if I was going to do this, how I wanted to do it.And that's where this he about a model of having specialists at that relevant and yeah, useful.
And I think not on a pedestal specialist shouldn't be on a pedestal.We're just another part of veterinary medicine and we should be really helpful and respectful to all our colleagues and useful.I think I love Howard how the market, right?
The veterinary profession, almost kind of created this and inorganically was created as opposed to hey you know what what could I do?Next.How can I earn money?This is my next money-making Venture.You know.Like people came to the organically because of who you are, what you did, the value you brought and then you have to create something around that, you know, that's, that's super cool.
It's a weird way to start.Start a business.They act like that's that's nice of you to say it's them.Yeah, I feel very fortunate and by having the chance to travel and meet lots of lovely people.He then had Had interesting images that they wanted opinion.
I've got a quick question.How the hell do you interpret Ultra sounds?Like dude like to like because I get 10 ultrasound images and we do like I do ultrasounds via like I'm like, no stop it.Don't say me these crappy Clips.Okay, put me in front of the ultrasound so well, I'll watch the, the ultrasounds in our Hospital on FaceTime, right?
You be like, okay, so you and the right peanut butter and Nana and yourself like space to lie.I got an idea where they are and I cannot know you've gone too far stops.Pops up, you know, adjust the steady and so I can tell them to walk him through it.And that definitely helps apart from being sent like a 15 second clip of something that's shady and kind of, you know, to sure we're like, there's anything.
How do you even do that?That's it.This is a huge dilemma.And when I, when I fell into this and I wanted to do this in a really high-quality way, I kind of wanted people to have huge trust in the reports that we were creating and and with all just and thatís really difficult.
So, Since if you're reading an x-ray, or you're reading a CT, what I'm seeing is exactly the same as the vet who took that image.As long as you, you know, right file type that we get images and we don't compress and so we make sure that what we're seeing is perfect.It's actually what the person's are at the other with an ultrasound that's super hard and as somebody like the others, you guys do a lot about sending, you know, it's all about how you position your hand and what do you got on what you're looking at and whether you let you've interrogated the holding of the abdomen or the hole.
Of black.I mean, musculoskeletal is even more complicated.So I always felt from the beginning.In all honesty, I couldn't do a good job of interacting other people's ultrasounds and and that I could certainly make a business out of that and charge for it.
And but I feel a bit guilty, putting my name on a report where I knew will, maybe they missed.I don't know a big lump in the middle of the and I wish they'd seen.So we have never done as a company ultrasound tech.Mission.We stayed away from it.
I love it.I think.Yeah, we've turned an awful lot of work over the years, as a result of that.And we've had clients, you said, you know what, I'd use your company.But I wanted you to read by ultrasounds and I said, no, we don't do it.And I've tried to explain why and then they've gone to another company that will read the ultrasound.
So I've tried to be very and I guess I'm my moral high horse about this to some and if I feel we can't do a good job, I'm not going to do it and we're not going to charge for it.Basically, they So I think it might change and the in the human world Ultra sonography is done by highly trained sonographer, as who take a very standardized images and there's an awful lot of thought that's gone into developing algorithms and protocols about image acquisition and ultrasound.
I think that is coming in veterinary medicine and already, you've got the American College of Veterinary surgeon.Looking at that and European colleges one would be their Fellowship as well.And the college especially This is a I think it might come.And with that comes standardized training program, standardized in the acquisition, and then that makes reporting a lot easier.
But but we haven't been there to date, so that's what we've never done it.No, I appreciate your explaining that because it's like half the time was thinking like the ultrasound as well because I'm, oh, I would love to know how to do that here, because I just blurted around, you know?Yeah, but as he said earlier is like a live, where you sit and watch some, But he did and you can see their hand and you can see where they're going and some companies have tried to do that over the years.
But it's tremendously time-consuming and labor-intensive and to do a good job.The difficult thing to teach from lately, I we have looked at ways of teaching it because I'd like I'd like to teach it as you see swaps and and the same want to learn it and I think it's hard to teach in vet school and it's hard to teach to GP that's to so and I'm trying to actually keep an open mind but I'm investigating some To me about ways that we could teach it better have good protocols and then potentially interpret but but it's a work in progress.
Hmm, virtual reality 5G, something along those lines but dude in like three seconds like giving getting someone who's new to ultrasound on the ultrasound probe was like you maybe too fast.You gone past it.
Stop it.Yeah.So I'm going to take to complete lifting.Yeah.So sorry on that Journey between America and Western Australia and Florida and all over.You made your husband.I presume that would have been there somewhere.
Yes that's good.Who's also read.It was also a veggie radiologist is that right?Exactly.Right, yeah.So my husband's French and we met at the Animal Health, Trust in Newmarket in the UK and we were working together and and actually we did actually after I finished it in last, Justin have been inferred of where we lived in Paris for a year and a half as well.
So that was another piece of the journey and I had to learn to speak French.Chew, which was quite challenging because I'm not, I'm definitely moving scientists brain than I am a linguist, and yeah.So, see my husband.She then, he's a veteran.We radiologist as well and we run the company together.
And and that's, that's been great.And I can certainly expand more on that because there's definitely pros and cons of working together as as a husband-wife team.Yeah.And we've really made it work and one of the things I'm really proud of it actually well that that's exactly my question.
It's not, it's not an uncommon thing.I made it to vit.Tirado's partners of is evades as well, and they also in business together.I don't, I don't work with my wife.It's not an uncommon thing, and then often will lead to practice ownership together or something like that.How did you make it work?
Because I have definitely heard that it is a challenge for many people are potentially a relationship lasting challenge.Yeah, I think it's, it's something you have to really work hard and and have a lot of mutual respect.
And I think is very, very important and team spirit.And and I think you become Partners in work in the same way that your partners in the rest of your life and you become a real team.I mean, we basically one's got the kids, one's got work, and that switches over like that all the time.
And and you, you get really good at that, but it's takes a lot of practice and it takes a lot of sticking at it.I think we I think we're very complimentary, I think that really helps.We have aspects of our personalities are quite similar and aspects that are different.
So we're really good at bouncing ideas off each other and we often have a different opinion on things and if you can listen to the other person and respect those opinions, you can often find something in the middle, that is actually really much better than one of you going.
One way or one of your going the other way.It's that kind of one.Plus one makes three idea.And if you can make that work, it's really Really cool.And but you do have to stick it it and you do have to spend a lot of time together.To be honest, it's quite interesting because with recent coronavirus, look down.
And I feel like me and my husband were more prepared for this and many other people we spend all day together anyway, and we, yeah, we work from nine sometimes, T.They, I think if you get it right, it can be a tremendously.Wonderful, powerful thing and it can actually strengthen your Ship and outside your home relationship, as well as your work relationships.
But it, but it takes a lot of work and a lot of people to us.I don't know how you do that.I think a lot of people guy could never work with my partner and I'll give you an example.And we never ever have an argument about somebody having to work a bit longer a bit later ever.
Because, you know, that person, you know what they're doing is the first thing, and, you know, that they're working for, for your team project for your family, and Your project that you two are doing together and I think there's things like that where you have a greater understanding of each other and actually you're pulling towards the same goal and in a very clear way.
So is another risk feeling that because it is such a such a clear goal and you don't have somebody who's not in the in the same boat almost just to sometimes say to you, hey come home, get away from what we want to see the kids want to see is it Is that a risk sometimes?
Yeah, and we both take the Workaholics and Incredibly passionate about our jobs and but luckily we're incredibly passionate about our children and our families.Well and say that, I think, oh, works out nicely because it's not like one thing takes precedent over the other and work would never take precedent over family and we're really clear on that.
But sometimes we do.Work really long hours but then we tried to pick up the slack for the other person, then that has to happen and it.Yeah, you've got to you've got to look at the whole picture.You can't just think about work.You have to think about being good parents at the same time and get that balance, right?
It's really important and good to parents and siblings to your brothers and sisters and good friends.Dear friends.I mean, there's a lot to throw into the mix.Did you find you had to have like, I totally agree with the two minds are better than one.One and I love the gray.
Alex sometimes gets frustrated groan, I get frustrated ready to but mean you get to the gray which is the one plus one equals gray to me, it's like okay, we came to somewhere in between the Middle.Yay.Like so we celebrate the great.But did you have to find a specific area like a few more operations or and as he is more business development or is it like is a key Focus there for each of you guys or yeah absolutely.
And I think there's That it's got easier and easier over time in the early days.So I kind of started it and then June came in really quite early on to doing it together.And in the early days, it was kind of both of us doing everything that makes sense and actually walking radiologist.
But as it grew, we've added to our team and that's helped a lot because we now have different teams doing different things.And so are two jobs have separated to running different teams.If that makes sense, though.I am.I like people.
So I do a lot of the kind of people side of things and the HR side of things.And and she lien does a lot of that.He is very clever.In terms of technical stuff technology.So he does a lot of it side of things.He's also pretty good at events and things like sweet.
We obviously do quite a lot of events and marketing, bits and pieces.So we falling into different areas which has been great and but but we collaborate well on them and there's obviously that's another benefit of Can be a part of there's tremendous trust between you, I think to her husband running a business.
There's there's just a lot of trust that you take for granted in that.And so we understand what the other was doing.We collaborate on that, but we do have our separate roles now.Obviously, we're both still vets and we're both still Radiologists and that was the day, the focus.
And yeah, in terms of running the business, we've separated that out, something else that helps us and it wasn't particularly environmentally friendly in the First place with me, we used to drive to work in separate cars.So, our office is about 15, minute drive from our house.
And initially in the early days, we used to go to the office in the same car and that was just all a bit much.Like you got up together.You have breakfast together.We came home to get a tumor.So we bought like a second.I don't know if you have them in Australia, the little smart cars and there's time like a little bubble car that ultimately meant that you would.
Came in the morning and Say, Goodbye arrive at Wolf.S is like 15 minutes later and just have that degree of separation that made a huge difference.We now have electric cars, I feel better about that but yeah it does.
That's such a nice practical, little tip because you're right, is this something about when we talk a lot about resetting and reframing and getting yourself from work mode into family mode and a lot of that happens in the car and it's much harder for that to happen when you driving with somebody else especially if there's someone else is also the person you just work with.
So it's very easy for those work conversations to spill into the car.It actually draws a line between work and home.I like that a lot.That's excellent divided difference and actually just listening to the radio because he likes French radio and itís just riding and just 50 minutes.It's a good thing you say that because Alex and I drive to the gym in separate cups.
Us and it's like a 20-minute drive.And like sometimes I think about you and like that's a waste of petrol been, I listen to music that pumps me up, she listens to a word, heavy iron, be that that she loves and then and then when it went happens is like on the way home we might run de vous for dinner or will pick some makeup.
Simply bit of those kind of moments where and when we started covid, me and leave the house.So we used to have both my upstairs.We have our offices upstairs and like five meters away from each other.And then one day, she just checked the shit and she's She pushed me downstairs.So so because we would have meetings, we even the same meanings, but on different computers.
But then what happened is I couldn't, we couldn't have meetings, it's because the other person when he the other meeting.So, so practically.So I've got demoted downstairs and now we ever and workspaces and the agreement was 8 to 9, we go for a walk 9:00 is work in between nine and three.
You do what you need to do.I do what I need to do and then 4 to 5 5 is Sighs.And then we have a chat over dinner and then so so we kind of structured our own times very since I think every every couple has to every couple particular during covid had to find their own through that.
And but I think thick you when you work together, you've got to have that structure.I can agree more with you and I think you've got to have your own space actually you really have and your own ownership of things as well.Like, this is my area and I'm in charge of this and that's really important actually.
We that you each have that.And, yeah, so you mentioned, you Workaholics, you both go business owners but then you very committed parents as well.Now that's something when I get feedback about the podcast, a lot of our audience are moms and they say to me, show us females who are moms, who are also effective Business Leaders and how the hell do they do it?
So how do you do it?How do you practically make it?Vicky business ownership work with parenting as well.I think, will firstly, family comes first and you have to kind of make that clear in your own head because it's quite easy for my business to feel like a third child sometimes and I do sometimes refer to it like that, but you have to be clear that it is not quite on the same standing as the other two who are really two people.
And and so I think if you get that clear in your head that helps and then it's about rigorous time management.I would I'd say and trying to be in the right Zone at the right time.And for me, I find that that helps a lot to have separate space and kind of just separate.
I separate everything quite in quite a military-style.So I have one email address for home stuff but one email address for for work stuff.So my homie murders I do with the school and I deal with the nursery and other things like that, when I'm with the kids I try to eat absolutely 100% mentally with the kids.
I try not to be thing.About work and actually in a separate space because they can feel that these little people are very poorly.They know when you're not meant to do with them and I tried to have really really quality time with the children and to really listen to them.I think rather than just sort of paying lip service to it, if that makes sense.
So that I know I'm there all the time, I can't be there all the time and run a business, it's impossible and but I try to make sure that the times I'm with them, I'm treaty with them and they're getting sort of full value from me and and that That I just try to pay attention to being a really good parent.
It's not always easy and parenting is never perfect, I don't think running a business is ever perfect either and but I think if you try to separate them, have your priorities.Clear?And just yeah be organized and show lots of love and kindness in both environments but particularly the home environment that that goes a long way and I think good child care as well.
I mean I I couldn't do my job without really great childcare and finding people that you trust to do a good job of being there with your kids.When you can't be there all the time, that's really important but it is hard and there's a lot of guilt and there's a lot of guilt that you neither doing one thing or the other well enough.
And I think in that respect, you have to be kind to yourself.And actually think I'm doing my best of both of these things.I think the other thing that's quite important to say is I think I'm probably a better Mum for having a job that I enjoy.And I'm passionate about, I definitely not ever been somebody that.
I think I couldn't be a full-time mum.I think there's some amazing amazing full-time moms out there who do a brilliant job of that, but I it's not me.And I like to have this other side of me as well.And it makes, I think it makes me better at being a good mum when I'm with the kids.
Aesthetics in.I think the guilt thing there that's what I get a lot of when I speak to to my wife's have it as well.But it is that am I doing?Am I doing either of them?Well enough that that is a big thing.So I like that.Be kind to yourself.
You're doing your best and I love that.You have to do the stuff that you love is reducible, what kind of thing, as well.So, I have my, my children's tgirls, and, and I kind of think it's important for them or say to see Good Role Models essentially and and I think I've always really loved having you career.
I feel very passionate about it and very lucky to have a career that I really enjoy.And I think that's kind of a good thing for my girls to see that and what something to be ashamed of, we'll try to hide from them and I want them to be happy in life, whatever they choose to do.I really don't mind what they choose to do, but I want them to know that all doors are open to them and and and I will encourage.
They want to do and whatever aspirations they have or achievements.They want to achieve before you said before that, you got a team members around the world.How do you manage remote teams?How do you manage teams?Yeah.In different time zones, all that kind of stuff.So we were probably on a zooms, become a great big signature in coronavirus, but we zoom and things like that for years and years, prior to this and we do absolute ton of video calling.
I think it's never as good as this actual being physically in the same room as people, but I think seeing each other face to face.It is massively important and say in terms of managing remote teams, I think facetimes important, I think talking is important and getting to know each Is important.
We also try to have actual events and where we actually physically get the team together and get them to know each other and then we do things.Like I know we go make pizzas together a couple years ago where you all in Switzerland for a conference.We went to make chocolate together.I think we.
So it's really good.So when you are and when you have the opportunity to physically get together, we really try and optimize that and but we did a ton of online meetings in a ton of chatting and we also do a lot of I think just fun things better online, not just all work-related.
So during the coronavirus period, we've been running a kids club where we did some fun stuff.We got everybody to bring their kids on to the camera and we did some fun stuff for them.I did a radiology quiz.Somebody else did guess the animal poop I thought was inspired.It's a they showed a lot different you and they had to guess what?
Just having the kids that you, guess or guess for what?The one I did was guess the species guess, which patient this is from an x-ray.Did we did one with chocolate bars or we had X-rays of chocolate bars and they had to guess which they love that.
And then one of my colleagues she did like animal facts and and one of them was guess the animal poop just from pictures of poo.So yeah.But think that things like that, and then we've done which it less kid orientated.
This, but we did a wine.Thing for our team online.Did a whiskey tasting.We did a because one of my colleagues in Scotland and he's big into single malt.So he did a proper like formal that was an evening session from the enough.But that's complicated because we have people that work in Australia.
We rest and you know so it's not even for everybody and but we were somebody didn't online surf lesson somebody did which is hard to do.We did yoga and lots of things like that.So I think these types of Engagement You can be quite creative.We did a pub quiz so I think trying to be engaging with your team, but I think one of the most important things is actually just showing people that you care that actually.
You're a real person and they're not just stuck at the end of her internet connection, Mars, Mars away from you.That's very important that translates nicely to when people talk about increased telemedicine for GP weights and everything like that, that same thing.
Is it showing showing it You're dealing with clients online, showing them that you did UK somehow.If you're just doing it online, so you haven't had the opportunity for the, for the one to one in person.Contacted it sounds that might, they might not have an answer for this, but have you got any tips to create that instant connection or or how I think.
That's really, really important.And I think it's a, it's much harder.I think we talked about this earlier, but actually trying to create connections with people online that you haven't actually Met before in person is tricky and I think having rezan is massively important so we didn't creaking amounts of telemedicine and in terms of specialist advice for veterinary surgeons and we don't do the vet to pet owner type of telemedicine and bit for those types of consultations.
We're definitely doing a lot more video calling and trying to build relationships that way and I think a lot of trying to add value to your clients is trying to put yourself in their shoes.And what problems they're facing what their day is like and how you can best help that and be useful.
And some of that is just very simple facts, that really busy.And we have to be careful about that and not take up their time or waste their time.I think trying to be useful to people and give them up very high quality, service and reliable trustworthy service.It's a great way to relationship build.And, and we try to do a lot of added value things as well.
So things like teaching, training, CPD, Always trying to recognize that our clients as Veterinary, surgeons are highly skilled intelligent, people who are interested in learning and growing in their own right?Don't want to be patronized.
That's very important.They want to be helped and supported and respected.So I think trying to get those relationships, right?And and really be a trusted partner, a trusted extension of their practice that adds value to what they're trying to achieve in their daily job.
It is the best I can say before covid.We try to get our clients together events as well.So at conferences like that shows and international conferences and Country based conferences, we try to get together and have some beers together with your clients because I think that's counts first important.
Yeah.And we also asked for a lot of feedback.I think that's really important.Like, I literally today, I've sent out later surveys to our clients about how do you think we're doing?You know, we're trying to get This right?But maybe we didn't get this right and that listening I think having a open ear to listening to what people want.
I'll give you some feedback straight away.We've signed up our hospital for over eight cities that The until him in support and we've used it a few times that the feedback is really good, this is emergency stuff.So in the middle of the night I've got weights voting the UK getting getting advice and really useful advice, so good feedback.
They got Square.I mean that's really what we're trying to achieve this.I think that the 24-hour nature of what we do and it's pretty cool and can be CP when I was doing emergency practice.If I had been able to, I don't know.Say I got a tricky I case or a neuro case in the middle of the night or something fitting dog.
I couldn't deal with or an eye hanging out.It's quite nice to know that you could call a specialist to ask about that in the middle.And that's the real Comfort to think and can help better patient management as well.That's the a that's good.I'm glad you like it, right.Victor.So it's a podcast.
We hopefully have podcast listeners.Are you a podcast listener?I do.Yeah, I love forecast that.So have you got any favorites that I should add to my playlist?Was that they usually uk-based satire programs so much interest you guys.
There's yeah, I like comedy.I have to say I mainly listen to Comedy and satire and I do now increasingly try to listen to Veterinary ones as well, but sometimes it's just nice to switch off and it's very comedy stuff.Yeah, I love British comedy, have you got any favorite?
But there's one language.But I listened to you could the Friday night comedy podcast from a radio station called radio for, and they they do one that it's not on all the time, but they do one called Dead ringers, which is an impression shape and they do the most amazing impressions of British, political and famous figures, but also global leaders as well.
I won't name names.It's very funny and it's very Give that a stir.And then a very last one that we like to wrap up with you are speaking through a teleconference and how to all of the new graduates of the year, which is actually happening.
I see they've got all these online, bitch, any graduation parties, and you have a few minutes to give all of them.One message.What's your one message to the new graduates of the world?Already really good question that you just following that, I think be kind to yourself and be kind to one another because I truly think that that's our kind and caring people.
And that's why we go into this profession and if we stay really true to that and keep that at the center of everything we do, particularly being kind to yourself because it's a hard job sometimes and we all try our best and it can be quite stressful and quite tough.
So it becomes Inches of appreciate that.You always just trying your best and be kind to your colleagues because they might have had a really tough time and but but I think it's a wonderful profession.We are so incredibly lucky to be veterinarians and, and I think every that I've ever met is pretty much a really nice person and you don't get that in every part of every career part.
I love it.It's simple and loving.I totally agree with, you say about rates being lovely people.That's my, that's my greatest joy with the podcast is every single person.Is it regardless, what part of the profession and what part of the world at the end of it?I always cover nice person.I was so nice.
Like my sister's, a lawyer, and it's very different in her profession, you do with all these nice people.It's very lucky.And I think we sometimes take that a bit for granted, that we are surrounded by.Really nice folk.
Yeah.And thank you so much for your time.I love that I can tell you for now.I think we'll call it actually takes.Again, thank you so much, you guys, thank you very much for your time.Thank you for listening.
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Victoria Johnson