Dec. 7, 2025

151: Why Do I Still Feel Like Such an Imposter? (This Is What Getting Better Feels Like). With Dr Marie Holowaychuck, Dr Kerri Nelson and Dr Rob Webster

151: Why Do I Still Feel Like Such an Imposter? (This Is What Getting Better Feels Like). With Dr Marie Holowaychuck, Dr Kerri Nelson and Dr Rob Webster
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Season 1

Am I a useless vet?

Sounds like a silly question that a new grad might ask, right? But imposter syndrome doesn't care about your credentials.

It whispers that you're a fraud, that you got lucky, that one day everyone will realise you don’t belong. 

Or maybe you don’t feel like an imposter - but you beat yourself up after a case goes wrong. You replay every missed diagnosis. You hold yourself to an impossible standard, and when you fall short (even slightly), the inner critic shows no mercy.

Sound familiar?

In veterinary medicine, where perfection often feels like the baseline and the emotional toll runs deep,  these patterns can be exhausting.

But here’s the truth: you’re not the only one who feels this way.

In this raw and honest conversation, we unpack:

  • Why imposter syndrome isn’t just a new grad thing - it can resurface anytime you step into something new, no matter how experienced or accomplished you are (Just keep listening if you don’t believe me)
  • What confidence really looks like - not knowing everything, but being willing to try, learn, and grow
  • Why perfectionism is often at the root of imposter - and what to do about it
  • Making peace with the inner-critic
  • Why vulnerability matters 
  • A simple mindset shift that can make all the difference
  • And practical strategies to manage imposter feelings 

You’ll hear real stories, mindset tools, and the reminder that feeling “useless” says nothing about you. 

 

If you’ve ever questioned your abilities or felt like you're just pretending to hold it all together - this episode is your mirror.

You belong here. And it’s time you believed that too.

 

Our guests are: 

Dr Marie Holowaychuck - a board-certified emergency and critical care veterinarian and the founder of Reviving Vet Med, a global initiative dedicated to equipping veterinary professionals with practical tools for mental health, resilience, and work–life balance, and the author of A Compassionate Calling: What It Really Means to be a Veterinarian.

Check out her new book here. 

 

Dr Kerri Nelson: Experienced ER vet, mentor and former medical director. First time mom-to-be! (She has an epic blog about over-achieving - here.) 

 

Dr Rob Webster: Co-Chief Executive Officer of Animal Emergency Australia, the leading veterinary emergency-care group down under, where he oversees clinical standards and consults on complex emergency and critical-care cases. A board-certified specialist in emergency and critical care since 2014. Jiu-jitsu tragic. 

 

Check out our Advanced Surgery Podcast at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cutabove.supercast.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, or go all in on surgery with our collaboration with Sydney University's CVE Surgery Course.

Find out how we can help you build you in your vet career at ⁠⁠thevetvault.com⁠⁠.

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Topics and Time stamps

04:28 You're not alone

09:56 What is a syndrome?

15:49   Defining Imposter Syndrome

19:44 Maybe It's Just Kinda Normal?

22:10 So What Can We Do About It?

27:22 The Eternal Internal Critic

30:22 Talk It Out

35:59 Vulnerability As A Weapon Against Imposter

39:03 This Is What Getting Better Feels Like

40:18 Perfectionism - The Root of Imposter

49:28 At Least You'er Not a Psychopath!

51:04 The Best People Are Filled With Self-Doubt

51:56 Mistakes Happen

 

Imposter Syndrome in Veterinary Medicine: Why It Affects Even the Most Experienced

 

The pervasive nature of self-doubt among seasoned vets stems from several factors related to career growth, increasing knowledge, and the high-stakes environment of veterinary medicine:
  1. Increased Awareness of Knowledge Gaps The longer a veterinarian practices, the more they realize how much they do not know, and the complexity of the field becomes apparent,. When individuals reach higher positions, they realize "wow, there is so much to learn". This recognition that there are "so many things that can go wrong" naturally leads to self-questioning. The thought that one will eventually reach a magical point where they know enough to stop feeling like an imposter is untrue; rather, those who continue learning often recognize the vastness of the unknown,.
  2. Transitioning into New Roles Imposter syndrome feelings are frequently triggered when an experienced vet moves into a new role, even if they have many years of experience in something else,. For example, a criticalist (a specialist) transitioning into general emergency room (ER) practice may feel unqualified for general cases like itchy dogs or broken toenails, deferring to the general ER team,. Similarly, shifting focus to a new niche or speaking at a conference on a new topic can immediately trigger the fear of incompetence,.
  3. The Pressure of Perfectionism The veterinary field is often described as perfectionist because it selects for high achievers who have high standards for themselves,. Imposter syndrome is inherently linked to perfectionism. High achievers desire to be perceived as perfect, possessing all the answers, and never making a mistake,. This mentality leads to intense mental health ramifications, including crippling anxiety, depression, and burnout, as failing to meet unrealistic expectations feels debilitating,.
  4. Paradoxically, the sources suggest that the best people in the profession are often the most self-critical because they can see the potential (their ideal self) the furthest away from where they currently are.

 

Strategies for Handling Imposter Feelings

Experienced veterinarians use specific strategies to manage these pervasive feelings:
  • Normalise and Reframe: Acknowledging that the feelings of being nervous, anxious, or doubtful are valid and normal,. Vets are encouraged not to make it personal—it is a temporary "lack of skill" that can be improved, not a lack of "worthiness as a human or as a veterinarian".
  • Seek Vulnerability and External Feedback: Talking to someone—whether a partner, mentor, or colleague—is crucial because sharing the experience makes the individual feel less alone,. An external viewpoint helps determine if the internal critic is "justly harsh" or "unjustly harsh". Sharing one's own mistakes and vulnerabilities helps to normalise errors for the whole team and counter the cultural pressure to appear constantly capable.
  • Focus on the Evidence and Growth: Vets are advised to look back at their careers, certifications, and successful situations as evidence against the internal critic,. Confidence is redefined as the willingness to try, rather than knowing everything,. The mindset shift of recognizing that "This is what getting better feels like" helps quiet the critic during moments of pressure, fear, or discomfort,,.
  • If Necessary, "Crack On": Sometimes the job must get done, and the most immediate strategy is to "put it away" and "just crack on" to get the task finished, addressing the doubts only after the shift,.
  • Professional Help: For deeply ingrained perfectionism and thought patterns, the ultimate step may be to seek a mental health professional for deeper work, such as cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT),.

 

Vulnerability, Mentorship, and Mental Health: The Role of Community and Therapy

The role of vulnerability, mentorship, community, and therapy is central to managing imposter syndrome (IS) and the associated mental health challenges in veterinary medicine. These elements provide the necessary external perspectives and tools to counteract the intense internal self-criticism inherent in the profession.

The Power of Vulnerability and Community

The core message derived from the experiences of seasoned veterinarians is that sharing feelings of self-doubt is essential because "it's not just you". Knowing that imposter syndrome is a "shared human experience" and an "everyone problem" is the first step in "down-regulat[ing] the intensity of that emotion".
Vulnerability helps combat isolation and shame:
  • Sharing reduces loneliness: Feelings of imposter syndrome can feel "really lonely". Acknowledging that "everybody feels it" is perhaps the "biggest message" to counter this sense of isolation.
  • Normalizing mistakes: Sharing personal mistakes and how one learned from them is crucial, particularly for new graduates, as it makes them "feel less alone". This is part of being vulnerable and allows team members to know that "it's OK to make a mistake as long as you learn from it".
  • Breaking the cycle of perfectionism: High achievers often struggle with vulnerability because they want to "be perceived in a certain way"—as the person who "knows everything" and "doesn't make a mistake". This inability to admit weakness creates a "cultural thing" in veterinary medicine where people are "very embarrassed to admit weakness, lack of skill, lack of knowledge". Sharing vulnerability acts as a "release" and a "relief" that counters this professional culture.
Vulnerability often earns respect; as one source noted, when someone is vulnerable, "it only makes me respect them more".
Hello.Hey, you're up.Good day mate, how you going?Not bad.I have a bit of a random question for you.Have you got a little bit of time to talk always?So I'm making this episode on imposter syndrome and I was wondering if you had 10 minutes to talk to me about imposter syndrome and your experiences with it?
Yeah, yes, I'd love to hear.I don't know how I can.Help, but I already feel like an imposter.So Rob, ages ago when I interviewed you the first time I interviewed you, and I know you like to tell this story, the story of your first night, an emergency where you went to see practice and GDV came in and you freaking loved it.
My impression is it's been go from there.It's been, I'm into this.I love it.I've, you know, you just smashed it, went all the way to a specialist level.And then when I have conversations about impostor syndrome, I think of somebody like you and I think, Nah, that guy doesn't know what impostor syndrome is.He's just working, confident.
Is that accurate what people talk about as impostor syndrome?Is it something that that you experienced, do you think?Now I'll go Hugh, you actually just raised a memory that I have not had for probably 10 years.That is really cool thing to talk about when you ask that question because I haven't been back to that shift for a little while in my head.
But first I, I guess I'd, what I would like to say is that, you know, your perception is about 100% wrong.I'm constantly plagued by doubts, fear, nervousness, and an underlying sense of inadequacy almost any time that something real is needed.
I'm Hubert Hamstrap and you're listening to the Vet Vault where we shine a light into the dark corners of vet life and ask, is it just me or is this stuff really hard sometimes?And that phone call, that's my good friend Rob, Vet specialist in emergency and critical care, owner of a large group of emergency hospitals, Doctor Rob Webster.
A success by most measures.Not the sort of person you'd think suffers from any self doubt.Which is exactly why I called him of all people, because I thought I was done with making this episode on imposter syndrome.That devil on your shoulder that tries to convince you that you're not good enough to do, as Rob calls it, the real things.
But something was missing from the conversation.I recorded conversations with not one, but two phenomenal vets to make what I was hoping would be the episode on Imposter Syndrome for vets.I chose my 2 guests because A.They're emergency vets, and this episode was born out of an e-mail from a listener who was struggling to find their mojo in emergency practice and presented me with a list of questions and challenges with How do I stop feeling like such an imposter?
Right at the top of that list.And B I've heard these two vets speak openly about their own struggles with imposter syndrome.One is Doctor Kerry Nelson, Super experienced emergency clinician, go getter, total boss.To me, confidence is the willingness to try.
Guest number 2 is Doctor Marie Holloway, Chuck again, legend in the ECC world, Dakvik researcher, coach, and recently also a published author with a new book, A Compassionate calling, What it Really Means to Be a Veterinarian.You should go check it out.And yet self-proclaimed badge wearing imposter.
The minute you try anything new, like, that's where those feelings creep up.But after I'd edited this episode, I realized what was missing.What about the people who don't talk about it?Rob and I talk about a lot of things, but I've never heard him talk about imposter syndrome.
Is he and all the other people who seem to always have their shit together immune to it somehow?Hence the phone call.And I think that bit you heard there at the start constantly played by.Doubts the nervousness.
And.Underlying sense of inadequacy.The first thing you'll learn here today is it's not just you.It is something that is no matter where you are in your career, it will rear its head at some point in time.
And I would venture to guess that surveyed 100 a thousand veterinarians, you know, we would all say that we've experienced it at some point in time.And it can feel quite paralyzing and debilitating when you go through that.
There's this sense of do I belong?Am I good enough at doing this?And it can feel really lonely.I think the first thing to underline is that everybody feels it.Maybe that's almost the biggest message because I and from my personal experiences, but also seeing it in others, when you get those feelings of, of I don't think I'm where's the adult in the room?
I don't think I'm qualified to do this.It can feel like it's a me problem, but just just knowing that it's an everyone problem already, I feel like a down regulates the intensity of that emotion to go no, no, it's, it's normal to feel that way.And, and I'll add to that more evidence that it's an everyone problem with the, the clinical podcast.
I obviously have the privilege of speaking to the best in the world and there's definitely imposter synonym or even with the podcast.I had one experience.Somebody was at the top of the field and as we were about to start recording, they said, Oh, I'm really nervous.I was like, what?
I mean, why are you nervous?I'm shitting myself.You're you're the boss in this.Why are you nervous?And it's just that feeling of am I going to mess this up?Yeah, I, I think it's really easy for us to when we're young veterinarians to look at the experienced veterinarians and say, wow, that person is so confident and they are so deliberate in everything that they do.
They know exactly what to do.And we've all had that feeling.We watch the the really seasoned veterinarians with specialists around on us, and they just seem to have the answer to everything.And I think it's important to redefine what confidence actually means because to me, and this is a definition borrowed from Mel Robbins, confidence is the willingness to try.
It is not knowing everything.Nobody is ever going to know everything.But if you are willing to try and you're willing to put in the effort and learn, eventually you're going to get to that level where it seems like you know all the answers.But we all know even when you get to that level, it doesn't matter how many years you've been practicing you.
I think the longer you've been practicing, the more that you know that there is so much that you don't know.You know, you mentioned that I wear a lot of hats as a coach, as a criticalist, as general ER practicing vet.And what's interesting with imposter syndrome is that anytime you move into a, a new role, even if you're experienced and you've got years of doing something else, the minute you try anything new, like that's where those feelings creep up.
And so it's funny, when I move into general ER practice roles, I'm always saying to the team because they're like, oh, you're a criticalist, so you know everything.Like, we'll just defer to you.And I'm like, yeah, I'm a criticalist.I am not an ER doctor.Like, I'm going to be asking you about the broken toenails and, you know, the itchy dogs and whatever else it is.
So I think that's one interesting thing to know about imposter syndrome is that anybody can be impacted, and you're especially going to be impacted anytime you move into something new.I think the thought is that the better I get, the better qualified I get, the less imposter central I'll have.
Like at some magical point, I'll get to the point where I know enough that I'm not going to feel like an imposter anymore.And I and I've invited as the opposite.As people move into those higher positions, they're like, oh, I don't know what I'm doing in this room I shouldn't be in.Yeah, because I think you realize how much you don't know.
You know, there's that curve, you know, when when people are learning new things, you're kind of ignorant at the bottom.Like you don't know what you don't know.And then the more that you learn and the more experience you gain, the more you recognize like, wow, there is so much to learn.There's so much to know.
And especially as a vet, there's so many things that can go wrong.And so I think it's easy to question yourself.I do think the more experience that I have in a particular niche space, whether that's a particular practice within critical care or a particular well-being focus that I have, I do gain more confidence.
I do question my aptitude less.But the minute I shift into anything different where I don't have all that experience again, despite being a practitioner for 20 something years, if I see a case that I really have seen before, immediately my thought is, Oh my gosh, people are going to think I'm incompetent.
They're going to think what?How is she a criticalist when she can't even manage XYZ?Or, you know, who does this person think they are talking about?Whatever it might be.If I'm, for example, speaking at a conference in front of a different audience or on a topic I've never spoken on before.
So I do think there is a little bit of comfort in having that experience despite knowing all that there is to know that you still don't know.And for me, it's definitely triggered in those new and different situations.
Got to be very careful right at the outset that you know at any time that something is called a syndrome.The way my friend Angelina, psychiatrist explains it, she says that that we all feel anxious, but when you have a syndrome of anxiety, that anxiousness prevents you from doing the things that we would consider normal or normally within our capability.
And so I always feel like an imposter when I'm standing at the plate where I've got to do something real.But it's never stopped me from acting.And I think in that it means that for me, it's not a syndrome, but it is a constant companion and something that, you know, a voice in my head is just, is just always there.
So that out of the way now, now I'd love to talk about that constant companion because, you know, if, if you would have the perception that I don't feel this, other people might as well.And and you know, if talking about it normalizes things for other people to know, Hey, this is the way a lot of us live or the thing that a lot of have to overcome, then you know, then I'm keen to help.
That first night in emergency is still one of the greatest nights of my life.And you know, now you've taken me back there, I can't not talk about it.I'd found emergency medicine when I had to go and do 2 nights working as a student in fifth year and just fell completely in love with it.
It was just this was my place, right?There were sick patients everywhere, challenging things to figure out, and you're working with a cool group of people.When I went in and did emergency, it was like, yeah, this is where I want to be and on the strength of it I applied.
When a job came up, I turned out I was down the applicant in Brisbane.So I actually got the job.And as not much has changed right about emergency, we're still you know, I always say to students, if you can't do anything else, we'll give you a start in emergency.But I willing.To work at 3:00 in the morning?
Yep, you've got a job.Yeah, that's got to pass the exams first.But then, you know, we don't, you don't need an academic award to, to come and work in the emergency room.But that, that first night shift and I had a patient on a ventilator.
I, I did a foreign body and I, I still remember this, the other vet handed me over this foreign body patient said, would you like to do a foreign body surgery and enterotomy?And I said, yeah, you know, hold me back.And I went into surgery and I remembered using al forceps at uni.
And of course there were no Bal forceps in the kit.They're actually calm out clamps.But you know, I didn't, couldn't tell the difference.So I put them on each side of the foreign body over the intestine, cut it out.And when I took them off, I could see these big, deep grooves in the intestine.I thought, I know that's yeah, that's all right.
And I put it back in and it was, you know, it was totally OK.The dog went fine.But I wouldn't recommend that to anyone.But I, I do remember I finished that shift and I was kind of dizzy and on cloud 9.It's so addictive.
But I drove out of the car park and had to stop 500 meters down the road and just vomited from kind of delayed stress.So you said before, when you feel like you feel lonely, how does it manifest?Like what?What's happening in Kerry's head?
And maybe it's elsewhere physically.What, what does it feel like?It takes you out of the present moment.It makes you dwell on things that happened in the past and anxious about things that are going to happen in the future.I know that if I'm in that headspace that I clearly have something that I need to work through because for me, being on the floor in the emergency room, I'm in the zone and I am in the present moment.
I'm not thinking about something that happened previously or being anxious about the the next case that's going to come in.So if you are feeling those feelings, I think that's a sign of.Imposter syndrome, I think for a lot of us, you know, we, we put that stress or that fear in our black pocket during the shift and then it comes out afterwards.
But the thing that you reminded me of when we're talking about imposter syndrome was the constant conversation that I had with my wife.Well, we weren't married then, but it was my girlfriend Jules.And I know why I didn't scare her away.For the next three years, pretty much till I made me a manager of the clinical space there, almost every single day I would go to Jules and say, are they going to sack me?
Have I stuffed up?Can I do this job?And it was like, you know, you'd put those fears away when you're working because you just got to crack on and get it done.But then I'd get home, get some sleep and start reflecting on the decisions I'd made, the tests that I'd run or not run, what I'd said to people and clients and how much I'd charge them, rehashing the whole night's work.
But in this really highly critical light, you know, it was like your worst or most picky mentor or teacher just going through every single decision and, and pulling them apart.And, you know, it didn't stop me, but it was quite difficult because I'd always feel that after the shift.
And the same thing happened when we went into business.And in business, you know, the thing that closes the door forever is when you go broke.And again, poor Jules.Well, she's still putting up with it today.Is that, are we going broke?Is this possible to do?
You know what's happening?Am I going to stuff this up?And again, it's like I can put it away when something needs to happen.But then when you're reflecting on what you've done, there's this constant critic in the room pulling apart every decision and every choice.
So that's your definition of confidence in your based on your own experience of what it feels like to you and how you experience imposter syndrome.What's your definition of imposter syndrome?So I think of imposter syndrome.I think you have to think about two key things.
So one is your skill set and one is the challenge that's being asked of you.If your skill set is way above challenge being asked of you, you're going to be bored and disengaged.And when it matches, that's when you're, and we've all had those days in emergency where your skill set and what's being asked of you as far as the challenge goes are very well matched and you feel like you have the answer to everything.
It's like Addisonian crisis, diagnose it, treat it immediately fixed it and GDV and you take a surgery and it does great.There are days like that and maybe even a flow state I would say is where the challenge is just slightly above your skill set.That's still a comfortable space.
Where imposter syndrome happens is when your skill set is below the challenge that's being asked of you.And you have to see that as an hobby to learn to handle those hard things better.You know, I think there are a lot of people who look around and they say, so it comes so easily for that person.
You know, they, they're just, they're smarter than I am and they know everything.And I'm never going to be like that.But that's not the truth.Those are just people who have learned to handle hard circumstances.So instead of waiting for things to become easier, you just learn to handle hard things better.
But it all comes down to with the challenge being asked, and what is your skill set and is there a big mismatch there?And how can you work toward building your skill set so that it can meet the challenge that's being asked of you?So maybe the first take away based on that, it seems self-evident, but I think it's not always that evident to the person stuck at those strong emotions.
If you're listening to this and you're in your first year out and you're an emergency and you feel like an impostor.Well.To some extent, you you are a little bit of a imposter because there's a there's a big gap, there's a lot that you don't know.So yeah, you should feel like that, and that should prompt you to get better and what you're doing, but it doesn't mean you're useless.
Quick shameless plug here.Throughout this episode you will hear us say that part of the solution to this is by actually getting better at what you're doing.Competence equals confidence, and it feels kind of nice to know you shared, which is to a large degree why we started making our clinical podcasts so that you can learn and grow without having to commit hours and hours of your precious free time.
But sometimes you do really want to level up with structured education and maybe even another qualification like memberships or even specializing, which is where our advanced surgery podcast A Cut Above fits in.Made for surgeons who want to really level up their surgical theory and sit at the level of the Australian New Zealand College of Veterinary Surgeons surgery membership exams.
But also great for interns, residents and anyone feeling imposter ish with their surgery knowledge and big announcement.Cut Above has partnered with Sydney University's CVE surgery course.Everyone who signs up for their full Bells and Whistles course will get, as of early 2026, complementary access to A Cut Above.
We are working in the relevant episodes into their core structure to complement whatever topic you're covering in the course, to provide additional study material, broader in depth explanations of tricky concepts, and just a way to get all of that information into your head without having to sit on your ass at a desk all day. e-mail us at info@thevetvault.com for more or click the surgery link that I've put for you in the show description.
OK, back to our imposter chat with some solutions and a look at imposter syndromes.Good mate.Perfectionism.I like the way you started it with what's the syndrome and was normal because the more I hear about it and the more I think about it, it is normal.
What I think what a lot of people call imposter syndrome is actually not a syndrome.It is 100% no like you described.Your first night being all going home to go do the intestinal surgery and you probably were woefully unqualified to do it and dangerously overconfident.
And I think what a lot of people think is a poster syndrome is actually a very healthy internal voice going.Just check yourself.Are you sure that you're actually up to this?And sometimes you're not like when you are new in a situation, people say, well, when I was a new grad, I had bad imposter syndrome.
Or when I took on that new business role, I had bad imposter syndrome.No, you didn't have imposter syndrome.You were probably quite shit at the job.And it was probably safe to be a little bit cautious about how far you extend yourself while you learn and while you get better at this job.But then there's that imposters.
What I gather is the real definition of actual imposter syndrome is I am fully qualified.I have every right to be in this room with this group of people, but yet a part of me goes, I don't feel like I belong here.They're going to find me out.That negative feeling with that is completely untrue and unjustified versus the other one.
That's probably probably That voice is probably the voice of reason more than the syndrome.And unfortunately, the voice of reason only speaks to me intermittently here.There are notable lapses when it's absent, but that feeling of doubt and inadequacy, I find it's often when you are doing something that is that's real in inverted commas and it's even, you know, my my daughters are in high school now and one of the things I'd love them to be able to do is speak openly in public and getting them over the fear of doing that has been challenging.
They have the best description they have is like I've got butterflies everywhere in my tummy.I just feel almost sick.And we've worked on turning the language around it to go, if you can feel those butterflies, you're about to do something really good and you know it doesn't work all the time.
But again, trying to recognize that this is a normal physiological reaction for a time that you feel somewhat threatened.But I, I get it more now when I go and I get it exactly to the same extent the different things that are used to.
That's why I would say it's a constant companion.OK, then, so how do you deal with it?You've gone through many metamorphosis in your career.
And so at each step of this, I, I, I look at you coaching, you know, a coach is supposed to know everything.How how did you make that transition?How did you not let it stop you or ruin the experience for you?You know, I think a lot of it just really comes down to mindset.
I, I don't want to downplay it at all.There's definitely additional strategies that can go into it, but a lot of it really is recognizing I do have a lot to offer in this space.Looking back on one's career, how many people have I helped?
How many people have I been able to coach or mentor in the past?And what are the successful situations that I can think back on?I think we often think about worst case scenario or things that have gone wrong, or we think I don't have enough credentials.
I need more credentials and certifications behind my name.You know, for me, I think it really is looking at the trainings and certifications that I've done, looking at the evidence that I have to show that I have success in a particular area, and then maintaining that open mindset, that growth mindset that is.
Yeah, there's going to be a lot of things that I don't know, and I may not be the best at this, just moving into this space, but there's capacity to learn and to grow and to continue to evolve my skills.So for me, it's all very dynamic.I stay very open to recognizing that I don't have all the answers.
And at this point in my career, even moving into new roles, whether it's coach or advocate or author or whatever it might be, that while I might not have those exact skills or experiences, I have a lot of very parallel experiences that can work.
For example, when I started writing my book, my nonfiction narrative book, I thought, Oh my gosh, I'm not a author.I didn't take writing in school.You know, like who, who am I to write this book?But then I thought, OK, I've authored, I don't know, 25 plus scientific manuscripts.
I've written book chapters, I've edited.I don't know how many theses from my graduate students.I have a lot of writing experience.And so it might not be that exact experience, but there is experience to show for it.And so, you know, to relate this to a new grad, for example, that might be grappling with these feelings of imposter syndrome.
Yeah, you're right.You don't have years of practice experience.But look at all the schooling that you did up to this point.Think about your challenging situations that you had during that school.How did you sort through those?Did you do research?Did you phone a friend?Did you ask a mentor?
You are resourced to be able to figure things out.And so keeping that mindset that you know what, even if I have a case where I get stuck or I, I'm in a procedure and I don't know what to do next, I can find a way to get through it and work my way out of it rather than getting stuck in this place of I'm an imposter.
I don't belong here.People are going to find out I'm incompetent because that really leads people to not want to reach out because they're so scared that the minute they ask for help that someone is going to be like, oh, I knew it.I knew you didn't belong here.
So we want to really try to let that mindset go if we can.Like that, you say, realizing that you're maybe you're not going to be perfect at it.I I see that often with the new grads where they it's.Almost like they're.Surprised when they're not good at something.
You know, you do a first spray and it was a bloodbath.It didn't go well.And then they're like, oh, I'm such a bad surgeon.Like, yeah, of course you're a bad surgeon.How many have you done?Of course, you gotta suck a little bit until you get better at it. 100% yeah, yeah.It's recognizing that in learning something new, you're going to make mistakes, you're going to fail, and nobody wants to think about that because of the those individuals we select for in vet Med.
But that's the reality.And I am very open to that.I mean, I've, you know, the, the recovering perfectionist in me, it's taken a while to get there and I've learned to embrace the fact that you know what, this isn't going to be perfect out of the jump and I'm going to have to pivot along the way.
And that's just part of the process.You know, I'm going to have to ask questions.I'm probably going to look stupid at one point or another, maybe to somebody else, and that's I'm going to just own it.I've never managed a case like this before or I've never dealt with a situation like this or I've never coached somebody through this scenario.
You know, I, I think we're so afraid to say that.And I learned early on when I was on faculty early in my career as a specialist, that admitting that you don't know is so much better in the long run than trying to fool everybody into thinking you have all the answers because you can't hold up that facade forever.
And I think it just prevents being in the space of constant growth and learning, which is where all of us want to be really.I was thinking about it there.There are three patients in the last couple of months that are still plaguing me for the decision making that I made and whether it would have been better if I hadn't involved myself in their care.
And you know, I think that's it.It's still healthy because I don't think I made quite the right decisions there.So if I was to say if that was imposter syndrome or, you know, this, this internal critic, then that would be a problem because I really need to think about those 3 cases.
Actually, I think one of them, one of the three, I did the right thing, but the other two I'm, I'm still plagued with concerns about them.And I think we've got to be careful about when, you know, when, when this is an internal critic that's being unjustly harsh.And then sometimes they're being justly harsh and we're trying to tell the difference is difficult.
And you know, I guess what I would do if I really wanted to work those out here is I'll probably talk with you because you, you have enough distance to give me a pretty clear feedback and you're not going to, you're not going to bullshit me or, you know, want to make me terrible.
So so you know, an external viewpoint is probably not a bad counter to whether your internal critic is on the money or not.Well, you described it earlier.That's exactly what you did with Jules in those early years.You had an external person to voice it, which might you know, this might not be a completely an imposter syndrome topic, but that self criticism is the other thing that a lot of us struggle with is after the fact, beating yourself up, going oh, I'm such an idiot.
I should have shouldn't have what how did what did you say that you're an idiot.You did your best.Or like I'm.Curious.She's one of the most wonderful and patient people I've ever met.And she would just sit there and go, no, you're doing really well.
And on some of those cases, you know, she just explained the from a different perspective, that the decisions were made correctly.A lot of reassuring.And now and then she would dig into the case and we'd talk about it and, you know, I'd be able to talk about the errors and then kind of normalize the errors.
You know, it's the, the average professional makes about three times more mistakes than they think.But Jules would be able to say, hey, what do you expect was going to happen?You know, you're not because I'd hand over my cases to Doctor Bruce Mackay, a specialist in the morning as well.
And so, you know, Bruce would sometimes help me see a different diagnosis and that sort of thing.And Jules would say, look, you're not Bruce Mackay.In 20 years, maybe you'll be helping someone sort this out.So it was a mix of reassurance, actually working through the cases where errors had been made, but also, you know, touching with reality.
Hey, bud, you're a new grad.Don't expect that you're not going to make these errors.But that external viewpoint definitely important.So if you are feeling those feelings, I think that's a sign of imposter syndrome.And to me, that's a sign that I just need to talk it out.
I know that the more that I talk to somebody about these feelings, the less alone I feel.I think the the shared human experience is so important to get us through these feelings of, you know, doubt and shame and fear.
No one can get over those feelings on your own.We all need someone to to talk to.So my next question was going to be, how do you deal with it when you feel it?Is that it, is it speaking to somebody?Is that your strategy?Well, I think there's a lot of different strategies that you can take because for some people, they're not going to feel comfortable talking to somebody.
So it might be journaling, it might be reflecting on a case.So I think especially if you're really stuck on one specific case that is giving you imposter syndrome, go back and ask yourself some questions.Ask yourself, could this have happened to anybody else?
Because it the likelihood is that it absolutely could have happened to somebody else.Was there something that you could have done to prevent it?And was there a mistake that actually occurred?And if so, how are you going to learn from that mistake and move forward?You know, we're all such perfectionist.
You know, 99 cases out of 100 go well, but that one case doesn't go well.We all really focus on it.And I think the way to combat those feelings of doubt is to sit down and say, OK, well, maybe I did make a mistake and I am human, but I can also use that as leverage to become even better.
And how can I ask myself the right questions so that I can learn from this?OK, so that's your post game analysis when imposter syndrome pops up, maybe because there's evidence of maybe you, you're not as good as you thought retrospectively almost.
And what, what do you do prospectively where there's something that happens, a case or a person or a because I'm trying to think what other scenarios will trigger imposter syndrome.And I think for a lot of youngsters especially, it's the client interactions.It's the feeling in the spotlight and those feelings of who am I to be in this position or I can't do this.
This case is beyond me.Yeah.Do you experience that or did you used to?And if so, how do you handle that?I definitely did.I think people make the assumption that I just came out of that school as confident as I currently AM.And obviously that's not true.
I I do think there is a little bit of fake it till you make it.But for me, when I was anxious about, you know, the first day of my internship and seeing emergency cases on my own, I had to remind myself two things.So one is take a look back at how far you came, right when you were a first year in vet school.
You probably never thought that you'd be able to do what a fourth year could do, but you did you.You passed all the tests, you went through all of the didactic training and then the clinical training, and then eventually you got to where you wanted to be.And so give yourself credit for how far you've come.
And then I think the other part of it is reminding yourself that everyone started exactly where you are.So the person that you look up to who's has the answer to everything, we all know there's people in the hospital who you know, will will quote a journal article or they can explain the path of Physiology of something without having to look up a single detail.
And they just, they just get it.And we all look at them and we're like, Oh my gosh, how, how did you get where you are?But everyone started somewhere.So you have to be patient with yourself and you have to be kind with yourself.You know, trying to have an internal monologue of how would I talk to my best friend if my best friend was in this situation?
I would validate their feelings.I would say #1 what you're feeling is completely valid.That you are nervous and you are anxious and you have doubts.Those are valid feelings.And I know that you've done hard things before and I know you can handle them again.And I believe in your ability to do whatever challenge is asked of you.
So I read 3 themes in there.One is No 4, identify, identify that it's happening because I think sometimes you're so under the pump and there's so many things happening and you have a negative feeling.You don't feel well, but you're not clear on what's happening.
So to have the the self-awareness to go, yeah, I think this is what's happening.I'm feeling a little bit imposter right now.This anxiety that I'm feeling on my tight shoulders or my whatever I'm experiencing, it is I feel like I'm not up to this task.Step 2, normalize it to go, OK, this is not, I'm not weird for feeling this.
This is literally everybody feels it in the right scenario.So you're not a freak and you're not a bad vet.You're just a normal human being with a normal self doubts.Your third step is you look at the evidence because of that voice says, yeah, you're not up for this.
This is not your thing.What are you doing here to go, OK, I hear you.But is that true?And what evidence do I have to the contrary to say now you can do hard things, You've done hard things before, You've done this, you've passed exams.You're not an idiot.
I know you're not stupid because you have your degree in hand.And then 4th is to not make it personal.If you feel that way and you feel genuinely unprepared for this thing, you have to do that.Do not make it a, there's something wrong with me.
I am not worthy as a human or as a veterinarian.It is a it's not a lack of worthiness, it's a lack of skill.Yes, I feel this gap.There's this gap.I feel this because there's a gap between where I am and where I need to be for this specific task.That's fine.I can upskill.It must have been a huge load for her.
She's downstairs but I don't want to go and ask her because it'll it'll bring back a memory because I actually haven't asked her about whether I'm what did it say whether I'm I can't remember what exactly I'd ask her.Oh, am IA useless vet I think is what I would ask her am I useless?
And it's like not a good you know, you wake up after a sleep and there's your there's your girlfriend.We weren't even married there.Again, the first thing you ask is am I useless?Well, I love that you're sharing this, Rob, because I think a lot of people have those thoughts.Am I useless?And to hear Rob Webster, the specialist, say, am I useless?
That you felt the same?It's a load off to go.Oh, I'm not the only one that feels that way.When we have brand new graduates that are coming into our new ER doctor program, you know, fresh out of school, I am always very quick to share with them mistakes that I have made and how I learned from them because it makes them feel less alone.
And it allows them to know it's OK to make a mistake as long as you learn from it and, you know, share that with someone else in the future so that they know that it they're not alone.Vulnerability piece is so important and but yet can be so tricky.
And I know that because I struggle with that.And I think this and I'll point this out, but there's two components.The one is definitely ego.I don't want to admit that I'm scared of this thing that I'm supposed to do because I'm supposed to look capable.And you know, I'm the big shot in the hospital.
Maybe for you and me, it's I'm the experienced vet, so I can't admit weakness or I'm the young red.I don't want people to think, who have we hired?Who's this idiot?So I need to act all brave.Yeah, yeah, I've got this.Internally you're really struggling.There is also a cultural thing.
It is a a profession of the vets, veteran side.It's a high performing thing and I think we're very embarrassed to admit weakness, lack of skill, lack of knowledge.So I personally still struggle with that.For me it's that, well, I've got to look capable.
I'm 25 years in, I should really know I should by then.But it's such a release, such a relief to be vulnerable as a team and just be honest how you how you're feeling and not just in retrospect if something has gone wrong.I think your point about being a high achiever and difficulty being vulnerable is so valid.
I think there are a lot of us who we want to be perceived in a certain way.You want to be the person that knows everything.You want to be the person that doesn't make a mistake.You want to be the person who can talk to any customer and you know they absolutely love you.
And the reality is that's it's never going to happen.And I think that the more that we can get comfortable with vulnerability, it's never been something negative.You know, I when someone's vulnerable, it only makes me respect them more.
Somewhere along the way, I trained myself with this little phrase that is, this is what getting better feels like.And I, and I, I, I thought about it, it first came to my head that little phrase one day when I was swinging A kettlebell and I was gassed and it was hurting and I just didn't want to have to swing it 50 times.
And I was up to like 38.And I thought, this is what getting better feels like.And because it hurts.And then I started using that same little phrase in moments when I am making a critical decision or really afraid I'm going to stuff something up.
And you know, it feels like you're under a whole lot of pressure.You don't know what to do.You've got to make a decision or do something and you're like, you just want to find somewhere to go and hide.And I go, this is what getting better feels like.And remember that when you're exercising, it's that discomfort that you voluntarily take on that helps you get better.
And I think thinking that way in the clinical and the professional sense has been a big help to me.It just quieting down the critic.I mean, you've got to do the hard shit to, to get stuff done, but it's you're always going to be, I think.Well, for me, my experience has been always nervous, never sure and never really confident until afterwards.
You said the term recovering perfectionist and, and I have to admit I I go through your work and through your website, there's still a lot of perfectionism there.You're right, I don't have any ugly pictures on my website or pictures of me making funny faces.What did it look like before?
If you before you were a recovering perfectionist, what did it feel like?I used to first of all, be very fearful of admitting I didn't know something, of admitting I'd made a mistake, admitting that I wasn't perfectly prepared for every single situation.
That was really mentally what really happened for me.I mean so much if it was focused on people's perceptions of me.So I wanted to like look perfect, be perfect, act perfect, have all the information all the time.So showing up to work always like put together with, you know, makeup on and just like presenting a certain way, having my scrubs always matched and those types of things, the way that I spoke or conducted myself, a lot of pressure on myself that way, my medical records just it was like I couldn't stand if there was anything, never mind like a spelling mistake or missing information.
But like, that things weren't formatted in a perfect way or that the font wasn't all the same, or, you know, that everything was completed in a very like, thorough and exhaustive fashion.So I think those were the biggest things.And a lot of it also transpired outwardly, meaning it wasn't all directed inward in terms of how I wanted to present myself, but there was a lot of outward expectation of perfectionism on my team.
So I came to learn as as I grew more self aware that there was this fear with my team.What if like one of my nurses made a mistake?Or what if one of the residents made a mistake?And then that's on me.And so there was a lot of pressure on them.And I started to see that play out in different relationships in the hospital.
And again, once I had the awareness to see like, oh, people are kind of walking on egg shells, like, they're a little bit like, oh, I made this decision overnight.Are you mad at me?And it's like, no.And what, you really think I would be mad at you?And so then you come to see how people perceive you.
And it's like, OK, I need to take a step back because not only is it not healthy to hold myself to these unrealistic expectations, but it's also not good for my team.And I also don't want my team and my mentees to graduate or move into the next stage of their careers thinking that they always have to be perfect as well, because then that just kind of this cycle of perfectionism persists in vet medicine.
And I think we've had decades of time really not admitting that we make mistakes or talking about the mistakes that we made such that the new generation of veterinarians don't feel like there's room for error.
And like you said, they perform their first spay and they're like, I can't do this because nobody's ever told them that you're going to fail when you first start something.To some extent you go great, if you could achieve it, awesome.If your notes perfect and your cases are perfect, everything's great.
That's what I'm working towards.It's what I want to achieve.How was it a bad thing for you?You talk about the relationships, but. 100% So the relationships was definitely one negative impact.I mean, the other which nobody would know if I didn't share it, right, is the mental health ramifications, you know, just there was so much pressure, right?
And so with that pressure comes a lot of anxiety.So I would have crippling anxiety like panic attacks before going back on the clinics, A lot of depression.I became very depression prone when things wouldn't go well.So if I perceived that I had made a mistake, it wasn't just like, well, you made a mistake.
It's not a big deal.It was like I made a mistake and now like my career is over or now this is the end.And so it was just like the ramifications of not meeting those unrealistic expectations were so profound that it felt debilitating for me.
And that also doesn't even touch on situations whereby my life was impacted, you know, from a work life balance perspective.So for example, yeah, spending like 6 hours past the end of my shifts writing these records.Yeah, the records are great, like good for that.
But I don't have a life at all outside of work.So I think when individuals are questioning, is this healthy perfectionism, what we call adaptive perfectionism, where, yeah, we do want to strive to be perfect in our case management and in our conduct and everything else, and also recognize that life isn't perfect.
I'm going to make mistakes.I'm not always going to have the best medical records if I have a shift where I'm seeing 25 cases, you know?And so it's got to be flexible and adaptable.Maladaptive perfectionism is where we have such rigid standards that we cling to them so much that there are negative ripple effects for our mental health, our relationships and otherwise.
So that would be the big differentiator for me.The veterinary field in general is perfectionist because we're all high achievers and we all have high standards for ourselves.And it is a debilitating emotion or I guess standard to expect of yourself to be perfect.
And when you have imposter syndrome, you kind of inherently have perfectionism too.And once you start to realize that everyone around you has made a mistake at some point in their life and they are definitely not perfect, then I think it allows you to start to let go of some of those feelings of perfectionism.
You know, they, they don't call it practicing medicine for a reason, right?It's, it is, we're practicing every single day.It's always something new and it's always a different challenge.And so, so I don't think anyone can ever expect to be perfect.And the reality is even if you show up as the AC version of yourself, if that is still prouder than many other people at their A level performance.
So giving yourself some grace that even on your bad days that you are still able to provide good care for animals and that you're still able to provide good care for our clients.So how do you make the change?Because again, we said earlier, if information was the answer, it would all be fantastic.
I think any perfectionist listening to this goes, Yep, that's me.I, I get all of that and I know I shouldn't.I really know I shouldn't.But that's, that's, this is who I am.You know you're probably like that when you're in the 4th grade.Yeah.Oh, yeah.Oh, yeah.So much of perfectionism is familial, right?
Like you, it's modeled by your parents, or it's reinforced during childhood.You know, I think it's funny because the framework that you presented when we talked about imposter syndrome, I think totally applies here.So there's the awareness that you are an individual who tends towards perfectionism because not everybody does, right?
So recognizing that you do is definitely a first step.Accepting that this is a common feature of veterinarians.Nobody goes into vet medicine wanting to make mistakes and cause harm.So it's almost to be expected.And also accepting that you are human and you will make mistakes.
Nobody can get through the entirety of their career being perfect all the time without having dramatic negative consequences.So I think there's that as well.And then there's choosing to think differently and act differently.
And I say that as if it's easy.It's not easy.I do think for some people it can be an awareness and then a shift, you know, choosing more realistic standards, being more self compassionate.I'll be honest, for me, what helped me to recover or continue the recovery process is to speak to a mental health professional.
Because for me, my perfectionism was so deeply ingrained that I needed really deep work like cognitive behavioral therapy to really look at where does this thought, where do these thought patterns come from to break them down?
Like are these accurate?How are these serving me?What are the negative ramifications?And how do I choose different thoughts that then lead to different behaviors, right?So for me, it was really working backwards from how are these behaviors showing up in my life?What feelings are they generating?
What thoughts are they coming from?And then doing some reprogramming there.So I think for individuals that feel like they can't just think or reason their way out of it, there's probably deeper work there that needs to be done.OK, so this podcast is not going to be the solution.
The podcast is is hopefully going to be the trigger for you to say, oh shit, that's me.OK, maybe I should do something about this because it's making me miserable.Correct.I have colleagues that look confident in their work and I I, I probably if I'm walking around on the clinic floor, I do look confident, but I'm constantly concerned that I won't be able to fulfill the role as a specialist.
One of my good professional friends is Claire Sharp.And anyone who knows Claire Sharp knows that you just can't compare yourself to her professional capability.And so it's it's hard not to.And I guess we're talking about, you know, comparison.Not that I'm trying to compare myself to Claire, but I think sometimes what a poor excuse I would be for, you know, if Claire was here, this would be a different situation.
She would know how to do this.She wouldn't have caused this problem.And I have this fear that I'm even at a quite a high level of a specialist, not able to deliver on that promise, if you like.That is part of being, you know, registering as a specialist and saying that you have a level of expertise because it's such a challenge too in veterinary medicine, right?
It's very humbling because even if for even Claire, who has a great process for everything that she can conceptualize, there is so much luck and random chance involved that you're still going to have very adverse outcomes even if you do everything right.
But that internal critic is never going.You know, when your patient goes poorly, that internal critic starts interrogating you.Did you get every layer of the intestine?You put a bloody Carmel clamp on it.Well, I've only done that once, but you know, like that process never stops.
And you know, I, I heard a great quote about this imposter syndrome is being a, a real person.You know, if you were completely overconfident, you, you've probably got a personality disorder.If you weren't feeling inadequate when you're trying something new, then you've got an issue.
That's exactly.I often think about that.The more I think about what's supposed to be a syndrome, imposter syndrome, I'm more, I'm more and more think that the opposite of imposter syndrome, that's the person with the syndrome.Is it psychopath or?I don't know what you'd call it, but it's not normal not to feel these things, right?
I came up with the slogan for impostor syndrome, a pro impostor syndrome slogan.Impostor syndrome.At least you're not a psychopath.I.Think that's great.I think that's great.And and yeah, probably one of the earliest signs is a kind of an unbridled confidence.
The other thing I think though, to be careful of is that I would, I don't think I've ever, you know, I'd never would have shown the same.We call it vulnerability or weakness on shift.I certainly will own an error when I see an error that I've made on shift and go, oh shit, I've done the wrong thing or let's work back.
I try to be very honest with myself about the errors that I make and sharing them with people that are around me to kind of normalize that.And, and also, you know, most people have made a few errors as well.So there is some support there.But that is very different from that feeling of, you know, or that question you ask yourself, am I useless?
You would never feel right to actually ask that question on a clinic floor.And actually, let's face it, you walk into the average emergency hospital and ask, am I useless?I'd hate to think of the answers that you're gonna get.Most people have been like damned straight.And so don't ask that question in an emergency hospital.
I'm going to wrap up with a quote that I read the other day on a lovely blog post.Doctor Michael Levin, he says imposter syndrome, don't fight it, it's normal.But understand it's not because you don't compare favourably to others.
Social masks, I like social masks, not even to others because everybody's got their masks.It's because you're comparing to your ideal and you can see what it can be.The best people are often the most self critical because they can see the potential the furthest away from where they are now, which I think is pretty profound.
Like maybe maybe that's like you as super self critical and maybe that's what drove you to get to where you are to go.Well like I know where I can be and I'm not there yet.So keep studying lazy bastard to try and get better.That quote is very like it resonates.
And I think, you know, the people I admire are are almost always now they're always trying to learn more.They're always the people that are like, what else can I learn?And and not only admire, they're often the people I want to be in in old age, for want of a better word, as I age.
They're unique individuals that just continue learning, but none of them are overconfident.You know that the people that I really go, wow, you are someone that I would like my children to model themselves on or I wish I could be like you.
They're never overconfident when you talk with them.They've always got doubts and misgivings and and that would fit with that quote as well.So I've written 2 main things down that you've said that I'm going to remember.I think that people can take away the 1 and I don't know if you realize, but I think that's maybe a take away is you'd feel those feelings and then on shift you'd put it away and your words would just crack on and get the job done.
And sometimes that's what you got to do, right?The job's got to get done, put it away and crack on it.And then this is what getting better feels like.And then go and talk to somebody else about it so they can tell you that you're full of shit and you should be where you are and you yourself.Criticism means that you are not a psychopath and on the right path to becoming better.
Yes, yeah.Thanks for taking me on a little ride back 25 years to my first ever veterinary clinical shift.I still remember it so fondly, but I did forget about that aftermath.Poor old Jules, got to go downstairs and give her a hug for three years of answering the question.
Am I useless and then marrying me anyway?So awesome.Thank you.
Before you disappear, I wanted to tell you about my weekly newsletter.I speak to so many interesting people and learn so many new things while making the clinical podcast, so I thought I'd grant a little summary each week of the stuff that stood out for me.We call it the Vet Vault 321, and it consists of three clinical pearls.
These are three things that I've taken away from making the clinical podcast episodes, my light bulb moments.Two other things.These could be quotes, links, movies, books, a podcast highlight, maybe even from our own podcast.Anything that I've come across outside of clinical vetting that I think that you might find interesting.
And then one thing to think about, which is usually something that I'm pondering this week and that I'd like you to ponder with me.If you'd like to get these in your inbox each week, then follow the newsletter link in the show description wherever you're listening.It's free and I'd like to think it's useful.OK, we'll see you next time.
Dr Rob Webster
Dr Marie Holowaychuck
Dr Kerri Nelson