Oct. 5, 2019

#15: Workafrolic, with Dr. Justine Lee, VETgirl

#15: Workafrolic, with Dr. Justine Lee, VETgirl
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Season 1

Dr. Justine Lee, the one and only VETgirl, is best known for the hugely popular on-line veterinary education resources that she produces through the vet girl on the run website, podcast, and pretty much anywhere where you find your continuing education.  Currently, Dr. Lee is one of approximately 450 board certified veterinary specialists world wide in emergency and critical care, and is a Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Emergency and Critical Care. She is also board-certified in toxicology and is a Diplomate of the American Board of Toxicology. She’s been published in numerous veterinary journals and books, and has been aired on radio and television to promote preventative medicine, animal health, and the overall well-being of pets.  Justine is the author of two humorous pet reference books, entitled It’s a Dog’s Life… but It’s Your Carpet and It’s a Cat’s World… You Just Live In It, and has co-edited and co-authored Blackwell’s Five-Minute Veterinary Consult Clinical Companion: Small Animal Toxicology (Wiley-Blackwell 2011). She is one of the editors for the Veterinary Clinics of North America Small Animal Emergency Medicine textbook. (Elsevier 2013). She has been a regular recipient of Speaker of the Year Awards for her talks on emergency, critical care, and toxicology, and she was the co-host and veterinary analyst on Nat Geo Wild‘s Animal ER LIVE. Dr. Lee still works as a criticalist at Animal Emergency & Referral Center, a specialty referral hospital in the Twin Cities, Minnesota.  And because she wasn’t quite busy enough, 3 years ago she became a mom. So how in the world does she do all of this?! Join us in our conversation with this whirlwind of efficiency and impact as she shares with us her ideas about career, parenting , money, time management and much, much more.

Good evening.Ladies and gentlemen, this is Gerardo Poli. and this sorry one of the best bits of advice I've ever received was to find good mentors and to learn from them trusted people who have already done what you're trying to do.
Now.I've been fortunate throughout my career to have some fantastic mentors to help guide me, but I realized that they'd be hard to find and also hard to commit the time to 1.This is why we've gathered some of the best Minds from the Brittany world and squeeze them for their wisdom so that you don't have to learn the hard way with the help of our guests.
We flipped the Very proficient on its back and explore its soft underbelly to find the tips tools and inspiration that you'll need to build the career that you've always wanted.I'm Gerardo Poli.I'm Hubert him strapped and this is the vent valve.Dr. Justin Lee the one and only vet girl is best known for the hugely popular online Veterinary education resources that she produces on the vehicle on the Run website by Outkast and pretty much anywhere that you find your continuing education currently.
Dr. Lee is one of approximately 450 board-certified Veterinary Specialists worldwide in emergency and critical care and she is a diplomat of the American College of Veterinary emergency and critical care.She also is board certified in toxicology and is a diplomat of the American Board of Toxicology.
So just to clarify that she's a double specialist.She's been published in numerous Veterinary journals.Books and has been made on radio and television to promote preventative medicine Animal Health and the overall well-being of pets.Justine is the author of two humorous pet reference books entitled.
It's a dog's life, but is your carpet and it's a cat's world you just live in it and she's also co-edited and co-authored Blackwell's five-minute Veterinary consult in small animal toxicology.She is also one of the editors of the veterinary clinics of North America small animal textbook on emergency medicine and she has been a regular recipient.
The speaker of the Year Awards for her talks in emergency and critical care and toxicology and she was the co-host Veterinary analyst on Nat Geo Wild Animal ER live.Dr. Lee still works as a critical list at an emergency and referral center a specialty referral Hospital in the Twin Cities Minnesota.
And because she wasn't quite busy enough 30 years ago.She also became a mom.So how in the world that she do all of this?This join us in our conversation with this Whirlwind of efficiency and impact as she shared with us her ideas about Korea parenting money time management and much much more.
Please enjoy.Dr. Justin Lee.Just Ali thank you very much for joining us on the weight belt and welcome to the podcast.Thank you so much for having me out.I'm honored to be on thank you for coming as well and it's been a while actually in terms of reaching out and touching base been following your Instagram for while and it's yeah, it's great to finally speak to you in person and kind of see you through the through the camera in the flesh.
So so you got your in Gym gear.Is that right?Yes.I'm actually glad it's not video but it's that's the benefit of Technology.What is it that what kind of things you do at the gym, so I actually didn't play any sports until I turn 30 because I was too busy nerding out to get into the veterinary school.
But once I was 30, I started playing on an ultimate frisbee team, which is I don't know if you guys have it.It's not that we do daily worldwide, but sort of like Frisbee with a combination of football and basketball and soccer I play on a women's ice hockey team and I'm a mid-distance this short distance Runner.
So at the gym, I do some high intensity training and only get to do it once a week because of the toddler, but it's my mental health in my Escape.Did you come from competitive running or it will just run for fun?I do some races.
Usually I'm actually doing a the Twin Cities 10-miler in two weeks.So I'll do a couple of 5Ks 10ks, 10 milers done a couple half marathons, but not crazy enough to do a full Marathon.So yeah, which leads me actually very nicely into it to my first question just to set the stage and create a bit of background about where you're from.
And and how you got into this hole?Public sphere of it resides so to speak.So from what I've Googled from what I've stoked you your honor and you're out driving you are already one specialist, you're already an emergency critical case specialist and you're busy specializing in toxicology and you running any thinking shed.
I wish somebody could be reading this to me while I'm running so I could be studying while I'm running is that is that accurate?Does that ever got the timeline right back?That's pretty And so interestingly enough when I first came up with the idea for vet girl.It was actually 2003 when I was studying for my emergency Critical Care boards.
And at that time there were no smartphones.I still had that yellow Sports Walkman that look you guys don't know.I know I got it.It's not that I just wanted someone to read me an emergency Critical Care article so I could go for trail run.
My dog and I wasn't running very far but I just needed some type of physical Escape or break from studying.I was setting 12 13 hours a day for My ECC boards and again technology didn't exist at that time.And when I was studying for my toxicology boards in 2011-2012 came up with the idea again.
I was like, I just want someone to read me a toxicology article and that's when I actually reached out to Garrett packing our who's a fellow credit list.He was actually a Veterinary student at Garcia Pennsylvania, when I was a senior resident and reached out to him with the idea of that girl and we based it off of my favorite podcast, which is called money girl or grammar girl and it was based on the popularity of the term girl and also the growing prevalence of females within the veterinary field.
And so yeah started it in 2012 and release it to the veterinary public in July of 2013.So we're only six years.Years old but that's how it started.That's really cool.That's a classic solving a problem producing something that's solves a problem.
It's a scratch your own itch your scratch your own itch.Yeah, that's right.Well, the crazy thing is I do believe the majority of people come up with Incredible ideas.It's just a very small percentage that take it to the next level and it's because we're too busy or because it's overwhelming and I will say it was Overwhelming to start a small business and start a limited liability Corporation and get it off the ground.
But I always say if you have a good idea to borrow the logo from Nike just do it.Mmm.So action.Hey I taking action because you're right though that it is a there's a hundred good ideas everyday.
How did you put that into action?What's your first step?So you come back from the run and you go I want to start this thing.How how what you do?How did how do you kick?Get off so I should say I mean I came up with the idea in 2003 but didn't actually start the idea till 2011.
So I'll let you know and it also came to fruition because now smartphone technology had, you know come out and so it was more available but back then, you know, we started this one of the first Veterinary podcast out there back in 2012 2013, and it was first of all finding a good partner and finding a good partner doesn't Teaming up with your best friend or your BFF.
It's finding the person that is going to match you the best and be the most solid partner.So making it legit making sure you go through a lawyer a small business lawyer a small business accountant to officially start it up to make sure that you are delegating appropriate responsibilities to make sure that your Forte's aren't different areas.
Mine was marketing mile its industry connections mind was public speaking his was technology.And so it's teaming up with a person who had may have opposite skills than you and so we actually just started with an Excel spreadsheet where we came up with the top 50 things we needed to do we had deadlines we would assign them to each other we hold each other responsible and thankfully Garrett and I have very similar critical assist personalities where we're both pretty driven pretty strong when it comes to attention to detail with getting things done.
And so thankfully because of the partnership we were able to make it happen and I truly believe there's always, you know, fortuitous luck and timing, you know, there was no online Veterinary Cee out there at that time.We call it continuing education or CTE and at that time you had attended Veterinary conference in order to meet your 20 hours of CEO of requirements a year and it was shocking that there was just no online availability to be able to do that.
So, you know definitely saw the need and was passionate about Clinically relevant continuing education and prior to me starting it.I was already lecturing quite a bit at a lot of the world known veterinary conferences out there.
And that was always my quote mojo as a c student in vet school.I was really passionate about making sure that attendees knew the two to three things that was going to directly save an animal's life.Not the pathophysiology behind the Loop of henle are you know that the truth is it's like the the practical skills as you said, it's It's kind of my thing as well.
I like the things that people can grasp and be still be engaged upon and engaged in but then see the Practical implementation of that in in in their day-to-day sometimes like a I haven't I'm not a specialist in and I wouldn't begin to imagine the level of study that is involved in going through that process.
I've seen people come out the other end with We'll break Townsend and and different personalities and so forth.So it's an achievement definitely but I think there is a balance between the amount of pathophysiology that's required to get to grasp a concept in a practical sense in an in a day-to-day implementation sense.
Yeah.Absolutely.That's still really important because it helps you figure out what drugs are going to use it helps you find.Fine tune your differentials it helps you understand the disease, which is really really important.But I also think as classic workaholic Veterinary professionals.
Sometimes you brain space is limited.All right, so hmm, so to get back to your story, so now you've got a wow the vehicle start before you finished your sacred specialization, or did you at least finish did you wrap up your stereo spatialization it and then start the business.
So I Already an emergency critical care specialist back in 2003, but I had not received my certification in toxicology until October 2012.So we released it as a small business in July of 2012.
Okay.So you like you like being busy and doing lots of things at the same time?Yeah.Well, that's that's the benefit of doing emergency and you guys know that it's just have to learn how How to multitask and go with it.
Mmm, one of the biggest questions we get asked and normally the one that I can never answer or at insight into but is balancing things.Like having said that on recent podcast Nigel Marsh and his take on work-life balance and hundred fits nicely with mine.
I'd like to agree and happy to say but There was a paper that was released and was a big study done by a big institution in the States and it's surveyed couple hundred new grads and oils what are the things that they're looking for?
And and the thing that actually came up was work-life balance, and I personally don't like the term at all.How do you balance the stuff that you know that you do in terms of yum study-unit extensive study of Acquired in becoming a specialist but also children or child and then business in terms of you know, the the online presence and so forth.
How does that work for you?How do you make that work?Yeah.So I've heard a lot of people say, you know, they don't like that saying work-life balance and my general philosophy is it comes down to semantics like I don't care what you call it.As long as you feel like you have good life Mojo and I will say for the first 10 years 15 years.
I did not have good work-life balance and it's the classic Veterinary.Personality where our Myers-Briggs personality is typically intj so we're introverted where data-driven were anal-retentive.We have high attention to detail and with that perfectionism comes a lot of bad it comes with bad mojo.
We don't take care of ourselves.Well, we work really really hard for perfectionist.We think our medical records have to be two pages long when in actuality.I really do aim for good work-life balance and I will say Say that I feel like I've been really fortunate.
It's a board certified specialist.I've been able to build my career where I never ever thought I would own to small businesses.I never thought I would be a nationally recognized speaker or internationally recognized and so as a c student I can say when I went back to my 15-year reunions at Cornell my one of my close friends at that time came up to me.
She's like, I can't believe you're this big wig speaker.You were totally see students and she meant it in a nice way, you know, I know Of our projected at for myself, but after working hard is a critical assist in the emergency room experiencing compassion fatigue experiencing burnout.
I realized you know what this is not the way I want to practice and I actually told myself on graduation day back 20 over 20 years ago back in 1997 that if I ever use physical force on an animal or I got frustrated.I was going to take a break and so when it happened to me, I decided you know what I'm going to go into industry and a lot of clinicians will poo poo industry to like, oh, I would never go into industry.
I want to you know, save puppies and kittens all day when in actuality the amazing thing about our profession is we can do anything we could go into private practice.We could buy a practice we could put our skill set up being a practice manager.We could go into industry we could teach we could work for the government.
So we have nothing but options is that many professionals and I really help people and encourage them if you're burnt out find a different option there.Nothing, but options take the time off.I went into industry for five years.I loved it.I built a lot of Industry Partnerships at that time.
It was great work-life balance.I worked, you know eight to four I had a lunch break and so just realize as a veterinarian you have nothing but options out there and for me because of that I was able to build my own schedule.So I work I used to work three days a week from home two days a week of the Specialty Clinic after I have my head my Child I was able to work two days a week at the Specialty Clinic be a stay-at-home.
Mom two days a week and frantically work on everything else one day a week and what I discovered especially as a parent is the sooner you learn to let go the better work-life balance because it really becomes the decision of what you want to prioritize for me.
It's my one and only kid for me.It's my partnership with my husband for me.It's finding balance so I can travel so I can lecture And my passion is still clinically relevant practical continuing education.So I've been able to prioritize it because it's a passion of mine and I like to view all the blessings that I have in life.
I want to enjoy the blessing of my one kid.I want to join the blessing of still being able to practice but also have the benefit of being a small business owner because I'm a big believer that gives you the Financial Freedom to achieve work-life balance sooner and the one last thing I I would leave is I come up from a family Workaholics.
Most Veterinary professionals are Workaholics, but I call it work a Frolic and I call it that because if it brings you Joy just do it.If it doesn't bring you Joy triage it out of your life.So essentially.Meaning and so forth if it's something's mean something to you makes you happy then that's you know, that's that's the key.
You said they're like go Justine is that let go of what you think you should be good at or what Society thinks you should be good at or as a mother as a vet excetera and things like that like so I don't know.
What did what did you mean by the term?Let go there?Yeah, I won't sing the Frozen sea.Song Personally the better your mental health you do not have to write a soap or a two-page medical record.
I'm a firm believer.You should that'll your eyes.You should cross all your t's you should make sure your medical records are appropriate but you don't you shouldn't be staying four to six hours after your shift making sure that they're perfect.You definitely want to we have a saying cya You Know cover your But when it comes to medical records, but all my medical records meet the board of veterinary medicine requirements, but I don't right to page this charges.
I don't write to page soaps and the sooner you let you learn to let go of your perfectionism the better quality of life, you know, you cannot waste a mental energy or shouldn't waste the mental energy beating yourself up because you didn't have the perfect medical record or you didn't prepare the perfect meal or your house is not perfectly clear.
Lean, you know if you look at my house, there's laundry.There's big hair balls in the corner.I vacuum, you know once or twice a month, but it's not perfect and nobody cares, you know, there's no harm.And so I mean by letting go letting go of perfectionism where you're going to beat yourself up when in actuality ask yourself, this is really make a difference.
This is spark Joy or is something bad going to happen if I leave my hair balls and the corner of my house.No, it's okay to Be too hard on ourselves.There's a concept that I really like and it's around looking at the things that you do breaking them down and then one identifying whether it's something you really need to do or something you can Outsource to someone else is a Som something you doing that is actually better done by someone else as you talked about before Mark and even was your thing and and Garrett's was technology.
But also the other thing was really focusing on what your key.Quality output is if you're going to do something as as you as your profession with your skills, you know, what was that?What would that key output B that would provide contribution and active service that tick means for you?
Some people actually don't really know where that where that is and every think about that sounds like as if you've kind of figured that out.Well not without reading a lot of self-help books.One of my favorite books is actually the four hour work week by Tim Ferriss and a That book does not pertain to veterinary medicine.
We physically have to be in a clinic for X hours a day.So we can't be in a clinic setting for hours a week.But there are some really important takeaways from that book and one of them is look at your hourly rate if your hourly rate say is I'll just give a little rate 50 US dollars an hour.
Whatever is less than $50 an hour.Don't do it.If it doesn't spark joy for you to mow your lawn or to pick up dog poop or to break the leaves and it's going to cost a nickel.Neighborhood kid down the street a quarter of your hourly rate, let it go let someone else do it.
And so I agree with you the more efficient.You can become as a partner spouse veterinarian parent the better your quality of life because we just don't have time to do all of it.So I totally agree with you Outsource what you can if it's below your hourly rate three triage it out of your life.
Hmm.So I An issue in our profession or at least what people will raises an issue is the the hourly rate thing.I think therefore many vets trying to build the lives that they want to leave having a balanced life is to some degree limited by that hourly rate with a go.
Well if I want to pay the bills I need to do the 50 hours a week and otherwise, I'm not going to be I'm not going to be able to cover my by my rent or my mortgage or anything.NG have you got any thoughts on that have you is it something you've struggled with them?
And you did do to you studied for a long time.I imagine what you started, you know, you're not drinking in the the big dollars.How how do you how do you make it work?What do you think about this?That's an excellent question.I will say that the student debt load in North America or I should say specifically United States is massive right now.
Your average Veterinary student is graduating with approximately.Hundred sixty thousand US dollars so the equivalent of a cheap house in the United States when I graduated over 20 years ago from Cornell.I had a hundred thousand dollars in student debt.So approximately whatever 75 thousand Euro and to me it really stressed me out and I was able to pay that off in 11 years and that was with a one-year internship and a four-year emergency Critical Care residency.
So I will say I'm a big believer that That the longer you can live like a broke Veterinary student the sooner you can pay off your student debt load the better your work-life balance because then you can say you know, what?I don't want to work 80 hours a week.
There.Is this great chart that is floating around on the internet.Do you want to work 40 hours a week for 40,000.Do you want to work?80,000?Do you want to work 80 hours a week for 80,000 and for me time is money.I don't want to work and kill myself working 80 hours a week to make a Thousand when I would rather have paid off my student debt load as soon as possible in the United States.
There's a lot of financing options for those loans, but my philosophy is the sooner you can get that big boulder of student debt off your shoulder the better your quality of life.So really trying to be frugal now, I know that contradicts what I just said where I said, you know, if it's less than your hourly rate triage it away if you can live for the first couple of years as frugally as you can.
Can as a veterinarian the sooner you can pay off your debt.Yes, you'll have to work harder in the beginning but then it gives you the Financial Freedom to be able to have better quality of life and triage things out of your life that aren't important to you.I'm a big believer of Outsourcing things.
I really like the idea of empowering other people to take over the task that you don't like doing and it sticks in.My mind is succession planning really if I don't train or Mentor the veterinarian's of the future to do what I'm able to do than always be stuck doing those kind of things to gets a bit scary when you succession plan yourself out of a roll.
Which is rapidly occurring but having said that it creates the space for anything to occur.But if you if you are the kind of person like you I where you really do value the the time and it's not just time but it's value that headspace that comes out of Outsourcing and something like shoveling poop.
It may not actually be an issue.But then you spend a week thinking about the fact that you've got.A shovel poop and then that's that's 15 times a day.You consider that then you consider actually the time you spend doing it.So seven.What's that?That's an hour you could be an hour and a half of your mental capacity in space and time considering jumping proved.
You're actually paying more then actually how much would after you would cost to get someone to do it in the first place?So and that's I agree and that's a hard thing is we as Veterinary professionals oftentimes don't think of Our Lives as hourly rates.
So I actually utilize one of my life hacks is I utilize Google Calendar quite a bit and I have multiple shared calendars with my business partner vs.My spouse versus my family my immediate family.I business travel so much.They wouldn't know where I am otherwise, but I also put mundane tasks on there that I don't have the headspace for I don't remember when my quarterly taxes are due.
I don't remember when my property taxes are due.I can't remember when x y and z It needs to be done.So I just automatically free up the headspace put it on Google Calendar automate as much as my life as I can since we're talking about poop.I will say I have one dog and one of my big splurges was getting an automatic kitty litter robot, which is an automatic kitty litter box.
It's super expensive and roll.Yes, six hundred US Dollars.It rolls it cleans completely seven minutes after cat leaves the litter box, but for me, Very nose or smell sensitive and so one big stressor in my life was whatever my cat defecated in the Box.
I feel like run downstairs and feel when I came back from a business trip.And so for me, I actually utilize technology so find something like an automatic litter robot.
So I only have to empty the charcoal litter filter and the box every 10 days squeeze up headspace freeze up, you know physical labor.I put it on my Google Calendar every ten days empty.The little robot done is that when you watch your YouTube videos, there's this contraption on the desk next to you is that that thing what is it?
It looks like a giant washing machine or on the desk.Like this big alien egg of it is actually the size of a standard litter box, but I have it below my basement stairs and man.
It is a game changer for me.So one of the technology things that I absolutely love that made my life better we have we took a lot of shit on this podcast, but it's the first time we've actually talked about we meet there will be people out there who haven't considered the You of their time high?
I ate it I've got I did not know but the the cat litter robot, that's pretty spectacular Ellie Ellie Lester one of our Specialists here in Brisbane purchase one of those and she thinks it's the bomb and we were over there over there having a party once and then we'll just like waiting for the cat to get poop because you want to see how it would work, but just eat sorry.
It's a break this back at but you You talked about industry going into industry.What would you doing in there?So when I left University of Minnesota, I was assistant professor in emergency there and I taught for five years at the veterinary school and we had a really strict non-compete.
So I because of my partner living in Minnesota.I had to stay in the state of Minnesota, but I couldn't wrap this within a certain area and so geographically I was very limited in where I could practice so I actually had to go into industry if I wanted to stay in Minnesota.So I actually was the associate director of Human and animal Poison Control Center, and so that was a natural fit because most of the time the clinicians that are seeing the poisoning cases are usually emergency and so between being an emergency critical care specialist and being in toxicology.
That's where I was a natural fit for me to become boarded in toxicology.And so I headed an animal poison control center for five years and then after that time decided to Branch out on my own, so it was a great break industry wise because It gave me a lot of options.
It taught me a lot about toxicology.It taught me a lot about HR people leadership skills management skills, and so a lot of great opportunities in Industry.So I always tell people again don't rule out your options.
You can always work in Industry as a fantastic way of conquering your compassion fatigue and burnout and just as a break hmm a good quite a few friends are in industry and There is this I don't even know if it's actually a real anymore.
But when I first graduated if you transitioned out of primary practice into industry, it was considered as you are leaving there was a stigma.Yeah, but you know, like I've got numerous friends who and just like what you said, they're totally changed their take on the career and then and then they've got now business opportunities and also, So in career advancement opportunities within corporations that have impacts on more people than probably we would see as veterinarians in a day, you know. / yeah, they were great larger people larger groups of people.
I agree.It also has great mental health.I remember within my first week of starting my industry job.I called my critical its mate and I called I was like, hey, what are you doing?She's like, I'm really busy.I'm about to around with the students.What's up?And I said, I just want to let you know I'm sitting at a desk.
Drinking tea shut up click it.So it's a big step and I considered it at just over a decade ago.I seriously considered.So as you say Jesus you just get a little bit tired of that of the clinical thing.
I couldn't do it.I think I was too worried that I did I'd miss the the clinical side.I think he said what do they call it institutionalized?What's the a jacket like that or something?
I think I've got Stockholm syndrome.I have stock of people, you know, people are worried.They're going to forget all their medicine and it is truly like riding a bike.You take a couple years off.It's still going to be in the back of your brain.
It might take a little bit but it's you know, most of it it's in a trust to be a clinician.I'd like to think that I could go back in general practice and still be able to pull out.Multi rooted tooth so but I don't know now, let it go.
Let it go.I would be able to do it what one of the actual most stressful things they that I was at a just a Hills recent grad retreating.It was really powerful experience.There is some students who were some students from some veterinarians who are only three years out and I asked the group of them.
How many of you are actually considering leaving the profession.And like a good fifteen percent of them put their hand up, but they asked us questions like, you know, what causes you stress now and and I'm like I'd give me a splenectomy your Geb thoracotomy.
Give me anything like that into right and me, whatever.Give me a spay.Oh my God, I'd like I get sweaty hands and like a like the last didn't say I did I cut too high up above the umbilicus not below turned into Next Lab all of a sudden they were intestines everywhere and I was struggling to find the actual the the uterus in amongst the intestines and that was like 45 minutes Bay and I'd like it was never again.
We we created Partnerships with local veterinarians.Now, we're we're like if any of our staff have their pets desexed it's like, oh, that's great.They don't dare.Well that brings me to Tonight's question.What do you struggle with?
Justin?What are y'all so you sound like you've got things pretty well sort it out.What guarantee in the life of Justin Lee?What are your biggest challenges?Well professionally personally, we do struggle definitely still work life balance.I mean II know I talked about it a lot.
It is a high priority for me, but I definitely struggle with it.I will say that I really try to make sure that my partner not my partner and I have good quality time, so I don't want On the laptop each night and I so I really try to limit it to Once to twice a week at most I'm just so we have time to connect.
I also make sure to prioritize it by paying for a babysitter to come so we can make sure that we have adult time buying puzzles.So we're not just sitting in front of the to wasting our brain away and actually talked in.So, you know, it's definitely still a struggle any Veterinary professionals always going to struggle with that balance over time.
And so Don't get me wrong.I don't have it mastered at all.So between trying to work on that and I would say, you know, I'm with as much business travel as I have.I'm often only in the clinic one day a week now.And so it's a matter of me doing in a nucleation every couple of years where I'm like, okay, I could do this or are we doing a bone?
Marrow every 10 years where I'm like, okay, I got to relearn how to do this.So I definitely still find that struggle as a specialist but in general still working on work, I've balanced mental health physical health and just trying to be a really good parent and partner.
What about one of our guests surgery?I don't want to jump in but this fits fits nicely in with with what you're talking about.What about gifts sent us an email once and said she had a question which I think was a very pertinent one and I don't know if you had this situation at all.
I don't know when you when you met your other half during this career trajectory of yours.She asked us.What how do you handle a situation where you early on in your career?We have these aspirations to be super VIP tour Specialist or something like that.
But your partner has similar career aspirations in life like an engineer or a doctor and you come up with situations where there has to be decisions made compromise made as to who sacrifices what and probably although it shouldn't be but it probably is still the case that in many instances.
It's sort of defaults to the Partner to say well, I'll take a step back and you focus on your career.I know but probably less Italy.So but that it was a I think it still is a concern for especially for all the female veterinarians.Is it something that you struggled with or what did you do all your hard work with before you before you made your so that's a great question.
I would say if I was going to say in answer straight.I would say whoever is going to make more money.Let them proceed with the career.I'm a late bloomer so I did not.Meet my husband till I was 38 and we did get married till 40.So I was very well established in my career at that point.
You know, I was business traveling a lot he knew that was a big priority for me and I will say with my previous partner prior to my husband who I was with for very long time.We had made the decision.We were not going to have children and so it wasn't until I married my husband that we decided to go down that Journey so I would say was a little bit different for me.
I was already well-established.Blessed ultimately you want to find a spouse or a partner that's very supportive of you.But you're also equally supportive of that partner and it's just a matter of strong communication skills working together to figure out what your long-term plan is, but I will also grow in the wrench and say I believe whether or not you call it the universe God's will Karma whatever you want to call it life is often about timing and I think as Pastor said Chance favors the prepared mind so we want to be prepared but we also have to be aware life's going to throw a singers and we just have to roll with it.
I feel very fortunate in that I wouldn't have been able to start my small businesses without my husband because in America, we don't have government Healthcare or universal healthcare and so I wouldn't have been able to move to part time to build my small businesses without the support of my husband.
Because I needed health insurance and that's different across the country across the world.But for me, that was a big factor.I was too scared to drop to part-time as a result.So, you know, obviously I don't have the answers for that.
But I would say work with your partner and figure out what what your ultimate goals are for females the biggest struggle that I found was with Family Planning and with Family Planning.There is no perfect time for you to start having children.
It's not when you're in vet school during your internship during our residency when you're about to buy a practice when you just start as an associate, there's never a perfect time, but I wrote a Blog on why you should stop your Veterinary career now to have kids and I always tell people we will often get trolls when I post this blog.
If you don't want to have children that's totally fine.I up with my previous partner.We weren't going to have any children and if you don't want to have children, that's totally fine, but I I think it's important regardless of what career goal you or your partner want is have that crucial conversation, especially as you approach your early 30s because most people think as Veterinary scientists, we all took their origin ology.
We understand how the LH F sh, you know process works.We just think if we work harder we can get pregnant while not true with Family Planning and age and most people don't realize once you're over 40 to the this is even with in vitro fertilization to a live birth with IVF is only about 2.5 percent and I didn't realize that until we struggled with infertility and losses and failed IVF.
And you know with Scientists we just think oh, well, you know, we see old 40 year old women with you know, twins all the time and it turns out it's actually from egg donors.It's not from the moms actual eggs, which is totally okay if that's an option that you want but I do think it's important because of timing and age you do have that crucial conversation.
If that's something you're even thinking about considering the interesting.So so would you have done knowing what you know, would you have done things differently totally?Yeah, that's a great question.If I and again full disclosure wasn't planning on having kids before I met my husband and I was the world's best aunt like I love my nieces and nephews.
But if I could do it all over again, I would have had five like I love it that much.I love every single stage.So yes, I would had more kids and you know feel super blessed to have Jane.It was our one and only but you know, we also had them one more 43 we're going to be retired when he graduated high school.
So if I could do it all over again, I would have started earlier.But again life's all about timing.Sometimes you can't change it.Yeah, it's interesting how I think it's more prevalent in the vet World maybe or maybe it's just because most of my most of my Social Circle out of it related, but how many my wife's of it as well by the way we Admitted that vet school and how many of her group of friends and my female be friends who have no no kids.
No kids.No kids no kids and then have kids later on and it absolutely loved it.And he and I look at them and go.Where did you come from you that's probably quite interested to see what your thoughts are on this.
You got a very large social media following and what are your thoughts there around the responsibilities that that entails because you're a person of influence and your thought provoker and the teacher right people start to sort of trust and and take what you say into account because of the credibility you've created over time, but the responsibilities associated.
And with that kind of you know, how would you say gift and burden at the same time?Well, you said it you're spot-on.It's a gift and burden I will say we never thought our social media would grow as fast as it did.
We paid 250 US Dollars and Facebook ads to get us up to a thousand fans and ever since then it's gone viral on its own.We've never paid anything for Instagram and it is a double-edged sword.I think the biggest frustration is when I graduated vet school in 97, there was no social media there were no, Reviews and it was a totally different world.
So if you ask me what I'd be this popular quote-unquote on social media, I never would have guessed it.It is frustrating at times because I'm a firm believer that veterinary medicine is very relational in the United States.It's a very small world and you don't want to burn your Bridges.
We're all one big family and what I've been seeing lately is a lot of negativity trolls.I've seen a lot of negative comments.I've seen a lot of judgment and I hate it.In fact most of The time I don't even moderate my comments because we can't there's thousands of comments on there.
And so it is frustrating because I often times and subjected to cyber bullying but I just ignore it.I posted a video on how to place an IV catheter for educational purposes and had some comments saying you drag the silent through the hair this totally not sterile.
Really you don't think it's a double board certified specialist.I had to put Naima Catherine or the other day.I posted a video.Me helping an intern doing a thoracentesis on a cat and got a lot of judgment for not having sterile gloves and I had a refute back saying Jude back off.
We're still using sterile technique and it's totally possible to do without sterile gloves.And this is a life-saving procedure, but trust me.I know what I'm doing and so to see so much judgment really makes me dismayed about our Veterinary Fields with the prevalence of suicide ideation with the prevalence of cyberbullying.
A lot of people hide behind the screen because you're not going to meet me in person and say it to my face.So it is really really frustrating and honestly My Philosophy is don't throw pearls to the pigs.I don't respond to negative comments most of the time unless it's medically egregious because most of the time Society will respond.
It is really frustrating though and I will say that the majority of the time I just let it go and you probably find the same thing because you have a huge Social media Following also, alright.So how do you handle it?You know what it is now because they used to hit me hard totally and I used to actually consider Rica and used to it no matter how many it's the same thing.
Right?You you get a kazillion.Thanks, and so forth from your clients and then one complaint comes through it's you and your girl shit.I shouldn't be a vet.I'm shit or whatever same with social media you get a comment on there, which kind of makes you rethink your value in your knowledge, but then to put that in perspective.
So the first thing is always put in perspective.Second thing is like I just thank them now.I'm like, thank you so much.Thank you so much for bringing it to my attention.I'll consider that next time you and I saw stallions.I loved it, but it was like so now I kill them with love and and there's always learning somewhere.
But it that was the quickest release for me of my attention was just going thank you and be grateful despite the fact that I may not feel that right now but it starts the process.But the thing that I you know, I posted a video of place in arterial catheter without wearing gloves and I was like dude if you can place an arterial catheter wearing gloves and feel it all through that rubber and stuff your magician, you know, you're better than me.
So like some people are good at that stuff, but you know, I need to be able to feel it but the the the one thing that I would say that I am very mindful of and I must say I've been guilty of in the past is sort of the attack not only the attack but the kind of the comments and that means that come up which kind of devalue the very people that were trying to help and serve which alike and there was one the other day and it was something like only Drives up in a BMW four-wheel drive and then can't afford the consultation fee.
Right and you like what you have no idea what's going on in the background of that person, right?And it could have just gone bankrupt a week ago.And and you know now he has used in the process of selling this car, you know, but it's the only thing that I don't really get engaged in now and actually feel a bit ashamed in terms of the things that really capture quite a lot of Engagement are the things that actually downplay or do somewhat degrade our clients.
I don't know why I do agree and it is really frustrating and I do say remember the reason why you wanted to become a veterinarian or Veterinary nurse.It was to help save animals.And with that comes a pet owner and I will say one of my favorite videos that I really encourage people to find online as brene Browns video on empathy versus see Thing and you're spot on when you say we don't know other people's perspective.
I am not Myers-Briggs wise personality-wise.I am not strong in the empathy Department until it happens to me.I didn't understand infertility until I happened to me.I didn't understand what it was like for a pet owner to hear from an emergency specialist being on the other side of the table when you've never met that person before to hear the words your dog has cancer and it rocked my world when my own pit bull had Cancer and so I really try to have that same philosophy.
I've had pet owners who come in a really expensive hundred thousand dollar car who say I can't afford that and you just have to work with them the less judgment we have and that was again.One of my biggest frustrations with social media is all the hate and judgment.If there's one thing that I could really just leave with the audience is please stop being so judgmental because down the line it's going to come back and bite you.
The less judgmental ER I mean the quality of medicine throughout the world has dramatically improved but we always have something to learn and I remember when I had that owner coming with that hundred thousand dollar car.He actually said to me I got in a really bad car accident a month ago.
I didn't have health insurance and now went bankrupt and you just have no idea what that person's situation is.I once had an owner bring in six almost dead parvo puppies.They were obviously sick.Four days to weeks, but who knows what was going on in their life and you know what, at least they brought them in they could have shot them with a gun at home, right?
They could have drowned them and so stepping back to still have that compassion and not be judgmental because we all see things from different perspectives whether or not it's as a single person.I was single for 40 years.
I oftentimes had a backup all my colleagues to had to leave at 4:30 to go pick up their kids to bring them to soccer and Often times there is a was resentful.I'd have to stay with the residents or the interns the Levin, you know p.m.Venting that case we're putting it on the respirator when now as a parent I get it.
So let's all try to be more supportive of each other especially because we have undue stress from so many factors from work-life balance from Financial stress from debt to income ratio from student debt to pet owner demand.So we really all need to just let it go and cut each other a break I do like me saying they're bad being less judgmental because a lot of the the the The Angst and anxiety and distress actually comes as a result of judging, you know, like the people like and I see it and I see it sometimes it's it's the stress that like my colleagues might experience because of the the stress of they feel associated with a case for the associate with the situation.
It's like You're choosing to actually think that way, you know, you're choosing to judge that way and that's only dead be detrimental to you.It's actually not even helping the situation.You're not even thinking about Solutions.You're not even thinking about how to move forward the situation.
You're still stuck in the Judgment, but you know like at that, you know what you said, they're really solidified or put it all together in a sense and just put it down to one word and that is essentially judgment.So thank you for sharing.Thing that I really appreciate that, you know, it's hard because I remember the first time I made a fatal mistake and we've all had those situations where we've killed the patient by accident and I remember calling my old surgery Mentor at Cornell crying.
I was really devastated.I was beating myself up over it and I still remember his exact words.This is the way you're going to learn in veterinary medicine.Just don't make the same mistake twice.So why are we judging our colleagues when we probably made a similar mistake 5 10 15 years ago and again, Often times we'll have referring vets who call before they refer something and say I'm really sorry.
If I did X Y & Z.I'm like who cares just send it in like you got to work with what you can I never was so judgment because you have no idea if their hands were tied if they didn't have staff to help them, you know, so most of the time My Philosophy is if you're having success with practicing the way you are great keep on doing it, but we all have things to learn but let's judge each other less, especially on social media.
Yeah, the the the client bashing game that you lose your Gerardo.I played that game forever a long time in my career.I did it is it's almost like it's a you think it makes you feel better.So you having a stressful day and then people come in and they make your day more stressful by the things that they that they did differently to the world how you would like it to do.
So you think you're going to feel better by now, I think I've from them or bitching about it to your to your nurses it took me a long time.To learn that by having your approach that what you talking about just hear about having more empathy and and not jumping to conclusions is not for that clients benefit.
You not big nice to the client just to be nice to the client.It's really for your own benefit it is yeah, you are by doing that bashing and being you just poisoning yourself really and ruining your own day, even further.So presume the presume the best and and half of the times people will actually prove you right that That they actually aren't as horrible as you as you've decided that they are and even if they are desirable that at least you haven't ruined your day by just perpetuating.
It's in choosing that your own attitude with that.Yeah.I do think that's really important classic example.I remember when I used to have a mom coming to the emergency room with three screaming kids and I'd be like, oh now it's a mom.Do you think she actually wanted to bring her three kids?
No, absolutely not the perspective and Really?You said it spot on when you said, you know, you're poisoning yourself and as a toxicologist.Yeah, I would say the more positive we can be it really does help just our mental state when we have a change in perspective.
I'm grateful this pet owner even brought these dying parvo puppies in right so just changing a perspective a little bit to turn it into a positive way remembering what I like to have a high low of the day.What what made me happy?What brought me joy.What made me sad?
At having a gratitude Journal.I've journaled every single day for my first year of undergrad back in 1990 and it's just a couple of sentences but you know, reshaping our brain just so we can make sure that we are more loving more compassionate more empathetic and we remember the reason why we wanted to become a Veterinary professional to begin with perfect.
Perfect guy can't couldn't agree more Gerardo you go and if I've got something better Hewitt I Well Justin, if you got anything in particular that you'd like to talk about that that we haven't talked about that you anything you feel strongly about.
No, I would just say thank you for what you guys are doing.I think the more that we can increase conversations about supporting our fellow colleagues lifting each other up being supportive and having crucial conversations that we don't learn in textbooks.
I think it brings up our profession more.Awesome.Thank you.I'm going to ask you a couple of quick questions.You say that you you have your own podcast.And you said you listened to a lot of podcasts have Any favorites and you podcast that I should I should add to the list sure.
So some of my favorite podcasts are just brief news ones.So NPR a couple of ones that will summarize the news for me and five minutes one of my favorite podcast.I listen to a lot of parenting podcasts to one of my favorite podcasts is the white coat investor, which is a financial podcast by a human Emergency Physician about how to be financially Savvy, which I think is really Only important how to get rid of your debt load.
My other favorite one is the happier project which is by Gretchen Rubin about how to be happy, you know, so talks about gratitude a little steps that we can take a couple of life hacks that I really enjoy.
So those are probably my favorite that I listened to any of the parenting ones that you like in particular because I haven't found any parenting ones that I Yet I've tried so I listened to a couple of different parenting ones.One of them is mighty mommy, which is in the same genre of money girl Grammar Girl.
Another one of my favorite ones is I've just got a scroll and find it.I think you're looking for the vid felt is there is the one you look known one of my favorite parenting podcast is by Jamie glowacki.
I think that's her last name.It's about how to have a toddler and just to warn you.It's a really long title podcast and it has the f word in it, but it's very very real life.One of my other favorite podcast is actually sawbones, which is by a human medical doctor and her comedian husband.
And it talks about a lot of the history behind human medicine, which I really enjoy.I also really enjoy a podcast.That is actually I believe based out of Australia called straight and Curly.It's just sort of life hacks aimed towards women and I Love This American Life another fun podcast that a lot of scientists would like is this podcast will kill you.
It's by to epidemiologists.And they talk about rabies or they talk about influenza.They talk about a lot of the science behind it.So I really enjoy that one and my all-time favorite parenting one is time to parents time to pick this one by Julie Morgenstern and I will say most people will say I'm a very efficient veterinarian which I learned during my internship and it's about how to be an efficient parent.
So it's how to have time for your I'll have quality time.But also how to make sure you take care of yourself too.Nice.And if we got time for the last question, we always finish up with this one.You're at a conference which easy enough to imagine for you and you've got all the world's veteran e new graduates with you and you have a couple of minutes to give them one bit of advice.
What's your one bit of advice to the recent graduates of the world?Honestly what I just told you guys, you know what we've discussed over the past hour.Is it would be that the vet world is very small and very relational and to be kind to your colleagues and to support each other and lift each other up.
The second thing I would say is learn to be an efficient veterinarian the more efficient you are the better your quality of life because you're not stuck at the hospital for 2 hours after your ship doing medical records.And those are my two favorite life hacks for new Veterinary graduates.
I like that that's really good efficiency.Wow, even though it's time even your tips are efficient.I love it chatting with me for hours A lot of people are slow to enter the medical records or they'll write it on a paper clip board and then type it into the electronic medical record later or they're just standing around waiting for that cat to be unblocked or to be sedated and I always say use that time.
What about your email drink some?Water take a bathroom break document a client communication finish your medical records and draw the Gerardo notes because like when you're in the emergency room something's triage back.I do my full physical exam at that time while I'm waiting for the paperwork to come back.
I've already typed my physical exam.I've started my history.I've started my treatment sheet.So the more efficient you are the better quality of life.Love it brilliant wrap it up.Thank you so much again.Just did for your time.I think there's a few a huge one.
I think I listens will love it.I know most of them listened to you already.Thank you so much.I'm really honored to be on your podcast and really appreciate you guys reaching out.Perfect.Thank you very much. eclectic list

Dr. Justine Lee