Sept. 20, 2019

#14: Meaning vs balance, with work-life guru Nigel Marsh.

#14: Meaning vs balance, with work-life guru Nigel Marsh.
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Season 1

I’ve been a big fan of guest for today’s episode ever since seeing him deliver a keynote speech at a big-ticket vet conference. I knew immediately that I wanted to hear more about what he had to say. His message resonated strongly with me personally, and with the entire audience of vets there that day. It’s a message that we here at the Vet Vault think will be very valuable to all of you, our listeners, so we were thrilled when he agreed to spend some time with us. 

Nigel Marsh is a Management consultant, communications specialist, author  and entrepreneur. 

He is best known for his creative pursuits. As well as the author of three books – Fat, Forty and Fired, Overworked and Underlaid  and Fit, Fifty and Fired-Up – he is also the co-founder of Earth Hour and the founder of the Sydney Skinny. Fat, Forty and Fired is currently being developed into a major TV series. He also has a hit podcast of his own called 'The Five Of My Life.'

The other side to Nigel’s career is his 30+ years experience in the commercial sector. Over that time Nigel has worked with a huge variety of organisations. From the highest profile (McDonalds, Canon, Pepsi, P&G, Virgin, Mars, Fiat, Colgate), to national governments and local enterprises. Whether dealing with big business issues or social engineering, Nigel has provided strategic counsel and impressive results in almost every category imaginable.

Highly in demand as a public speaker Nigel travels the globe regularly giving speeches to major corporations on both his business and personal views. His TED speech on work/life balance remains the most viewed ever given outside of America with well over four million hits. 

And this,  dear listeners, is why we are talking to Nigel on our veterinary podcast: because us vets are not always that great at finding that elusive work life balance. We’ve had some interesting discussions with other guests on this podcast on this topic: what is work life balance, does it even exist, and is it something that we should be pursuing?

So we’ve called in the big guns: please join us in this highly insightful discussion all about balance and finding meaning in your career with one of today's leading thinkers on the topic.

 

Good evening.Ladies and gentlemen, this is Gerardo Poli. and this sorry one of the best bits of advice I've ever received was to find good mentors and to learn from them trusted people who have already done what you're trying to do.
Now.I've been fortunate throughout my career to have some fantastic mentors to help guide me, but I realize that they'd be hard to find and also hard to commit the time to 1.This is why we've gathered some of the best Minds from the Brittany world and squeeze them for their wisdom so that you don't have to learn the hard way with the help of our guests.
We flip The veterinary profession on its back and explore its soft underbelly to find the tips tools and inspiration that you'll need to build the career that you've always wanted.I'm Gerardo Poli.I'm Hubert him strapped and this is the vent valve Our Guest for today is episode first crossed my radar when he was the keynote speaker at a vet conference that I attended earlier this year and I knew immediately that I wanted to hear more about where the He had to say he has a message that resonated strongly with me personally and with his entire audience of vets that day.
It's a message that we here at the vet felt think is very valuable to all of you our listeners.So we were very pleased when he agreed to spend some time with us.Naja March is a marketing consultant communication specialist author and entrepreneur is best known for his creative Pursuits as well as being the author of three books fat 40 and fired overworked and underlaid and fit 50 and fired up is also known as the cat is the co-founder of Earth hour and the founder of the Sydney skinny fat body and fired is currently being developed.
Into a major TV series and if you enjoyed listening to him today on our podcast, make sure to look up his own very popular podcast called the five of my life.I'm not going to lie my wife prefers listening to Nigel's podcast then to the vet Vault.
The other side to Nigel's career is 30 plus years experience in the commercial sector over that time.Nigel has worked with a huge variety of organizations from the highest-profile like McDonald's Cannon.Pepsi the Urgent just to name a few to National governments and local Enterprises whether dealing with big business issues or social engineering Nigel has provided strategic counsel and impressive results in almost every category imaginable highly in demand as a public speaker Nigel travels the globe regularly giving speeches to major corporations on both his business and personal views.
He's dead speech on work-life balance Remains the most viewed ever given outside of America with well over.Million hits and this D listeners is why we are talking to Nigel on our Veterinary podcast because US Vets are not always great at finding that elusive work-life balance.
We've had some interesting discussions with other guests on this podcast on this topic.What is work-life balance does it even exist?And is it something that we should be pursuing?So we've called in the big guns, please join us in this highly insightful discussion all about work-life balance with one of the leading thinkers on this topic Nigel Marsh.
So Nigel I told you in a correspondence before we started this podcast be in Gerardo sent a questionnaire to a couple of hundreds of hundreds of vets and vet students to ask them what their concerns were and what they wanted to talk about in the podcast and one of the most common recurring themes that we that we heard was that they were worried about work-life balance how they're going to have a good work-life balance.
In this profession of ours that is notorious for Burnout and for for being quite all-consuming, which is why we wanted to talk to you today that one of the many hats that you wear is the work/life balance guy.Now first of can you tell us how did that happen?
How did it how did it happen that you became that the guru on work-life balance when we know I mean, I wouldn't I wouldn't claim any special place for me, but it was an accident and it it's just a result of my own personal experience.
So I was I mean, I'm I'm not a vet but I was working in quite a high pressured profession and I had a change of change of life where I mean literally changed my life in every way.
I mean, I'm not saying it was easy, but just to keep it short for this conversation.So I you know gave up drinking lost weight with outfit and one of the things I did was absolutely put the things that were important.You the center of my life rather The Edge and ever since I've turned 40.I am now 55 I have had a balanced existence and we can come on later to talk about how you define that but my work-life balance before 40 was rubbish and my work life balance after it has been fantastic and and a friend asked me to do a Ted speech though.
I did and it was on that topic and lots of people saw that I don't know.It's 5 million or whatever at the moment and then because of that People then asked me, you know to talk about it.But I mean, I do lots of speeches and and 90% of them aren't about work-life balance.
But because some of my books, you know reference my journey and all those things is nice people like yourselves and and like your colleagues in America asked me to come over and talk about work-life balance.So I wouldn't wanna claim to be an expert but I have got views on it views are abused.Yeah.
So what it was what does work life balance mean for you?Gosh, I mean me.For me personally or be thinking what it means.Generally ha actually that's a really good question and I suppose.Maybe go by what does it mean generally and then and then if there's a different way or different thought that you have on it explain kind of what it means for you sure what so I hate the phrase and and I think the phrase is hideously unhelpful and misleading and what people can be led to believe is they have to balance all amounts of time on work and Equinox of time on play.
And it's just the workers a bad thing.And if you do more of wine, you do less of the other such as the whole phrases is rubbish and problematic, but it's the one that people use for me generally generically, it means finding a life that you find meaningful.
Okay, and that then leads to a whole different conversation because if you have work-life balance you get into idiotic discussions about getting up early and doing in yoga and drinking green smoothies or else not the stuff out.
That's what you want to do.But but you get unqualified poorly trained may be well intentioned who knows people giving advice they're not qualified to do so, I wouldn't I wouldn't dream of giving you advice on how to have balance.
I don't know, you know, there's as many different answers as there are human beings.So but if I look at it in terms how to construct a life you find new meaningful and might be some suggestions or thought Okay, don't leave us hanging.
What are your suggestions and thoughts on that?It's not about spending equal time on the golf courses in the back surgery you they how can you have a life constructing either has meaning then by definition that puts the onus on the individual.You know, what what is Meaningful to you?
You might have somebody who Rupert Murdoch all the or whoever the richest men in the world is who if they have consciousness.What about it?And what they want to do is they want to win and have a bigger practice than anyone else and die with more money than anybody else and that's genuinely want well knock yourself out he or she is having a life of meaning fantastic if they might have married someone had a few children have a Friendship Circle and what that's what's really important to them then the period of proper reflection not trying to not try.
To copy someone else or or do something that you think other people are going to applaud you for which is a two of the really big problems.I see in this in this area you are allowed to be different.You should be different though.It's about one of my phrase is decide don't slide.
So just think about what's important and many people don't do this proper reflection until something awful happens to them, which is sort of what happened to me.I mean, I wasn't a player Enough to do this on my own I had to lose but you know, my first book is called fat 40 and fired.
I was fat 40 and 5.So I had a bit of a life, you know event that made me pause and think and I didn't work when the second half of my life to be pale imitation of the first half of the hold on.I just sort some stuff out and I can't blame my profession or the government or will my employer, you know grow up be an adult take responsibility for yourself and think about And it doesn't mean you can have everything you want in life.
But actually think about what you might like but there's many many people thought into an existence and then they wake up and they're 63.They've been divorced twice.They don't know any of their children's friends and they think what the hell was that for I go that's a real shame, which is completely different to tips and tricks on how to run your day.
It's interesting to hear you say that about there being a push to to change.It was one of the questions I wanted to ask you I noticed Your book while I read both of your books and and in both in both events where you decided to take that break and re-evaluate your life.
There was that there was a definite push and I do get the impression that most of us are so comfortable in our little rats and they were just plod along and do the same thing.It's all something major happens until somebody in that you love get sick or something like that.
Then people suddenly take a step back and go.Okay.Well what should I do differently if you got any insights?On how can you generate that push without waiting for a crisis?How how how do you get yourself in the frame of mind or how do you start that process of serious Revelation without waiting for for the for the external push?
What a fabulous question.Well, I mean, I don't want to appear arrogant.This is this is genuine is that is why I do the speech that you were in again in Perth there.That's why it's Peach to your colleagues in Texas.
It's really really hard because we've all got responsibilities and life is busy and uncertain and I find it an absolute privilege and an honor if I'm asked to talk about this because my intent when I was talking to your colleagues in Perth, my intent was the answer to your question you go.
I don't know how I can make it make people do it, but Sometimes I get asked to talk to people about that topic so you go, right so my intent of that speech you got something entertaining is to make a few of your colleagues walk away and go blimey that man's made me think and if I can be the stimulus rather than a divorce or a cancer diagnosis, then I'm extremely happy beyond, you know doing speaking work and standing on stage and asking people to do it.
I don't know.I mean, you know Write books, but I don't view it as my life's Mission.But if I'm in a conversation about it, I that is what I'm trying to do is to get fit not to give them the answer not to tell him time management experts say this isn't a joke.You're only here once we're all heading to a hole in the ground.
No one gets out.Alive it main time.I can see this picture will picture on the computer.You look like you've got about 40 or 50 years left before your car kit you go.How are you going to use those those years and and and be the stimulus that maybe I mean, hopefully you guys are worried.Thought about it because the stimulus that makes people go blind me ask me some confronting questions perhaps I should have a think it's not about the person with the most money when she dies wins.
It's a before then you think work-life balance as a phrase and it's and you don't like it.I I personally don't like it either because there are many things that I do during the day at different times of the day and working on different.
Expert I like in a way.I don't feel like I'm working at feeling like as if I work I'm spending time on my hobbies spending on time of my projects.I'm engaged in and so forth.And of course I often get asked.How do I do work-life balance?Because they people see the amount of output that I can do and I suppose for me I got I couldn't answer the question because whichever way I had explained it.
It didn't even sound like as if I had balance so then then I thought about it.I was like, well the stuff that I'm doing actually is stuff that I really like doing and I shouldn't feel like as if I had to justify it, but if I really felt like as if I wasn't really working then maybe this is what work-life balance means for me, you know, I've been sort of floating around with this thing in my head for 6 months or if not longer about whether or not the fact that I feel like I have to justify what work-life balance means for me.
Maybe just a He just like the whole entire phrase but I didn't know we're not as that was me.Just trying to make an excuse for what I do as opposed to actually whether or not it is, you know, a meaningful phrase and and I might take on it as is or at least my my thought of or concern around the phrase and you've said this as well to some degree is that when people are looking for and they in an employer so when we ask people what is it, they're looking for the looking for work-life balance.
Half of them don't even know what it means for them.And then they put the responsibility on their employer or on their family or on their partner to somehow be responsible for their work-life balance when they actually don't know what it means for them because I haven't identified what is most important for them in their lives.
Girardi we are brothers from another mother.I I couldn't agree more and and I I would go a step further.So the phrases is rubbish and this and actively damaging but there's also another Nuance which listening to you describe your situation.
I think might help you not feel guilty, which is the objective isn't balanced.Just let the objective of life isn't happiness.It's to make a contribution the objective of life isn't balance its meaning.
So if you fi couldn't care less about balance who invented balance.I mean, I don't care.So if you find your life meaningful and you yourself said which is really important as long as you're not deluding yourself, so I've got no idea about your personal circumstances.
We just pretend you've got a wife who feels neglected and you'll never Well, it's about Farmers.Like I love it that you give you the space of time to do my projects and like origin of the space-time feedback.Sorry Nigel continue, but that is it.
So it's important that people aren't delusional and you're not harming other people's you've done the work you've thought about it.But if I take what you had to say on face value, which I do you go brilliant the mean who gives a toss about balance balance is irrelevant.
It is only important if So problem that makes sense.So if you've got an overworked that all her relationships are failing because you spend 23 hours in the office and that is a problem for her because she doesn't want to live like that.The objective isn't to get her balance.
Its to get her meaning and by getting meaning will then then balance becomes a non-issue.Does that make sense you go well for your life meaning isn't spending 23 hours examining dogs and cats.It's looking after your mother.And your children and whatever else so therefore you need to reorganize how you live how your life works not you need to balance all the different elements people used to turn the telescope around balance is not it's the wrong pot of gold.
Beaning is the pot of gold.I know some of the happiest people I know work the hardest and they're genuinely happy and I wouldn't want them to work any less hard other people.It's all individual.They should work less hard.They hate their job.
And and their relationships are failing and they're miserable in that but it's it's the height of arrogance to give an off-the-shelf answer to everybody.It's what works for you.What do you what's your thoughts around people who?
you know, we we always say and you read books and they say the only thing you the only thing you can control is your own actions and thoughts and things right but let's say you're in a situation and you know job and the job pays for you and in the that pays for you and your family and your family is is dependent on that and your children are dependent and so forth the if the concept of changing what you're doing in the change change How would you say the meaning that it has for you?
So in a way that's say you the way you currently think about being a veterinarian is going to tone going to the clinic and administering vaccinations and talking about things that owners don't do and then go home and every day you do the same thing and feel like you don't have an impact you're not contributing.
But then if you reframe what it is that you do in your job where you're you know, you're helping clients.Take care of their pets you You are improving the Health and Welfare of animals where you know that that was the role that you you the I suppose the oath that you talk somewhat when you take when you took on this job, then you ReDiscover meaning in something that you're doing as opposed to looking outside for new meaning like as what's your thoughts around that?
You broke up a little bit there, but I think I got most of that so you can I think it's a really again a really wise comment you can reframe things.So I worked very hard on my own podcast, but I don't think of it as work.So it's not like an out-of-balance.
I love it.I'd like my the more I do the better, but I also think there are a number of charlatans where they you know, if you like religion is the Opium of the people, you know back in the previous Century.It's where you go.You've got a People in horrible jobs, you don't like in and you say look I'll show you know, just change your mindset and positive thinking will change everything.
So I'm a huge believer in positive thinking and reframing your perspective on stuff but having said that one of the things that I say that most other people don't and I started my Ted speaker this is there are some jobs and life objectives that just are in compatible So sometimes you have to change your external circumstances.
Now, we can't all have everything we want in life.So that's you know, you asked me.How can you do it?We will some people it's tough It's hard but just pretend you don't like blood you probably shouldn't be a doctor.If you don't like heights.You probably shouldn't be a pilot.If you don't like long distance travel, you probably shouldn't be a lorry driver.
So just pretend that each category of work if you don't like numbers you shouldn't be a hedge fund manager.So for me It's important to be honest with the situation you're in.So some situations.You can resolve by saying will change how you look at it.
And that's lovely you go to stop stop being down on what effects got to do.It's a wonderful thing you helping people you're helping animals, isn't it?Great, but other people they might be in the wrong job, you know, if you make being a vet will involved when you tell me I don't know will involve certain things that you cannot change just like I've changed my job you going Is I know what it involves to be the CEO of a large International Company nothing wrong with that.
But it you know, I'm sure as hell not going to be at the beach at 3:30 in the afternoon.If I'm you know, doing that certain job.So you have got to be honest with what you know running a Veterinarian Practice means and and then overlay on whether you can come to a place of happiness with that.
Does that make sense?Yeah, one of the things that we tackle you said yeah in a way.That's suggested.No.No, I totally there has to be an underlying compatibilities with what do you want to do the impact you want to have and I suppose then it may be Redirects the question to the the issue with people being passionate about things and believing that passion should continue forever.
I suppose in a way that like I've heard veterinarians go.I'm not just I'm not passionate about the job anymore.I'm not passionate about you know, it's not what I thought it was going to be why she that's different frames.So I'll be like the in terms of the they rely on passion for something to continue the drive and fire to push through.
And and you know, yeah continue on and persevere with their careers or their chosen careers.I do believe you get to a stage where you you know, you have to think long and hard about whether or not this this or directional lines in or is heading in the same direction.
You wanted that you foresee what you would like your life to be but but the the issue that I hear all about the issue that I believe is that that when people rely too much on passion to to drive their motivation that they become disheartened rather quickly because passion doesn't last forever.
And looking for meaning and reframing is possibly one way around that.Did you come across that passion issue or do you feel that?It's an issue at all?Yeah, so I am as a phrase that I was a Buddhist Frozen Tried by Justin love which is chop wood carry water.
That's what you do before Enlightenment.And what do you do after Enlightenment chop wood carry several carry what that's it.And so it's about of it's about sort of managing expectations.So I again I'm you know, I'm finding it difficult to disagree with anything you say Geraldo is if you think You always going to be on top of the mountain you are deluded.
That's not what life is about you've got to be able to there's a quote from the Russian playwright check off which is any fool can face a crisis.Its day-to-day living.That's the challenge that can change crisis to Passion.You know, any fool can be excited about something that's genuinely exciting.
But how are you going on Tuesday and Wednesday a normal Tuesday and Wednesday when you're not saving a life and someone's having you for saving their dog, can you it's called being an adult?This has got nothing to do with balance is can you come to a place where we most of us will have to work for 40 50 years and it's not all going to be party hats and celebrations.
And and one of the one of the ways that I would suggest to friends and colleagues that they can help themselves with that is if you think your business has A point so I can say this to you too because your vets which is good, but it's quite challenging insert another image.
If essentially what you're doing.So at my nails my mind thought is trying to be a nurse.So essentially that's a good profession about the point of it is making sick people.Well, though if he has a bad user or Wednesday, you can fall back on but the overall Endeavor is making the world a slightly better place its People so if you for me, it's managing expectations like this and going to be one long orgasm.
What what what you know, what is it that you are doing that, you know, even something as ridiculous as doing a podcast like my podcast you go.Well, I hope it entertains people and makes their plane Journeys less boring.So if I if but if I can't find the point then that is really really hard.
And this is what happens to some people who are just commercially driven which is fine.So they working Pretend its banking they work in banking and they they got over having enough money.So they've got enough money and then they're having a bad day.
There's nothing left to fall back on but that make sense you go.So my initial motivation was whatever it was pay off the mortgage or blah blah blah blah.I've done that and I don't really like my job and it's very very stressful.And so I go well, you don't really like your job and it's very stressful.
I haven't got an easy answer for you.I mean, I mean, I just haven't you go.Well, you're in a not very likable job and it's stressful and then it how do you how do you overlay meaning on that?So it's for each of us to to work out and I have to say I had never seen a situation that can't be improved ever and and I've been doing this for about 15 years. is I'm going to offer an opinion on our profession that I think a challenge in what we what we call people trying to find work life balance in our profession.
So Dorado if you say you have people apply for jobs and they say they want to work life balance.I don't think there's a big issue as you say Nigel in our profession with finding meaning in the work that you do.I think the challenge comes that it's too much of it for a lot of people our profession and the jobs that are out.
They will lend themselves to long days that take you away from the other things that you that give you meaning in your life.So, for example, I'll use my wife is an example.She's a varied as well.She finds it very hard to take a normal job in practice because the standard work hours are 8:00 in the morning till 7 o'clock at night and we have three young children and that's not balanced for she can't she can't do that and we fought Janet I'm fortunate and both of you are fortunate in that you have your own positions in your life where you are in some control over what you do with your time.
He can allocate it to the meeting that you want.Whereas many people are if you want this job then this is these are the hours you're going to work and if you don't like it, then you don't have this job, but then you don't have any money.It's I think they're I don't know if it's a question rather than a they're just a statement of the challenges that people face.
I'll turn that into Question Nigel in your book you you made the decision to take to jump off the hamster wheel and to re-evaluate your life and to build yourself a meaningful life, but it did mean that you that you had to be prepared to take to take that Financial Risk.
And I think that is a - a stumbling block for many people that they know they want something different but the Practical implications of having to pay the bills will often get in the way.How have you got any thoughts on that?How do you get around that?
How do you how do you deal with that the fear of taking that taking that leap to make a change?Well, I think it's a it's probably the most important issue that you have raised which are I call the reality of the category syndrome though?
It's what I was talking about earlier about if you don't like blood don't be a doctor where else is to have a clear-eyed view of what is the realistic best version of what your job action.What about you?If she's got three young kids, you've got three young kids and and the hours are 7 too late.
So just pretend that is the reality of the cat.That is what her job will make a brilliant.That is the starting point.Don't try and pretend that you're going to change the reality of what being a pilot or a lorry driver of that actually means have a clear idea.Then you go.
If this is the only way I can make a living there's no other option.Well, then you haven't got anybody choice but what my work has led me to believe is that in many many cases that is nearly the philosophy of despair.
And if you were to ask me one year before faculty and fired and look for if we had this conversation before I'd done the things I've done over the last 15 years.I would say you don't understand.I've got four kids.This is the only way I can make a living I would passionately believe that have believed that yet.
That was not true.So what people say is well, it's all right for you clever clogs because you went off and did x y z.I've got no other option.I just don't believe that's true.I just don't believe that's true.You get you get a lawyer who says oh, this is absolutely appalling.
But this is the only way I can make a living, you know, really is have you tried have you looked or is it's just extraordinarily scary looking at doing something else.There's a difference between something being really scary and it not being possible and what Davis do is we peek over the edge and we look at how how uncertain and scary that is and therefore we then rule it out.
So, you know just pretend we let's not use your wife as an example.But let's put all got a lady who wants to be an Engaged mother and doesn't think that being a vet, you know will enable her to do that.But being over that is the only way she can earn a living.
Without knowing this person was I just invented her I would say well I'd like to challenge that assumption.So to just pretending I was in a coaching relationship with her.I would find out genuinely about her life and go is that the case and as I said before I've never seen a situation ever I've never seen a situation that can't be I wasn't sure if he was stunned by my winter.
So we are you going I was waiting for the for the mic drop then that was then they can internet connection got out of it.We're gonna stop at video.You know, July would have well it is a bit.Well, we can we keep dropping out a little bit.I'm going to stop a video we asked earlier, but hopefully that will give us some more more baffling.
So so we disappearing off the screen, but we asked earlier.We want citizen but that is far worse because I've got a grinning idiotic picture of you carrying a surfboard.That's that's what I'm seeing.Yeah, that that photo is to be that's work-life balance.
I wish I could understand it.It's burning you guys a story when I was talking to it was actually the equine practitioners in America because because I you know, I haven't got the answers but I genuinely would like to help you know, if us don't only if I don't force myself into conferences I get if I get asked that I give my honest opinion and I'm talking to these wonderful people and if you are a neckline practitioner in the state's it involves the horses don't come to the come to the practice.
You've got to go to the horse because they're big animals and you get called out late at night.So if someone calls you at 2:30, you've got to drive, you know, maybe through the rain 400 kilometers to go and you know euthanasia horse or whatever.So the fact that you're on call means, you know that you in terms of how classically people talk about balance.
You might have absolutely no balance because every night is interrupted by a call.That means you gotta jump into your into your van that were talking to these people about that.So that's the category reality is you've got to be on call to derive somewhere to look after a horse and you go and there's no choice.
And you know just challenging assumptions.You ask the philosophy of Despair you okay?Well, I don't know anything, but I'm just going to ask a question is could you share the nighttime calls Duty being on cool with the practice that is next door to you.
And this lovely person looked at me and went yes I could.But I would earn less money.There's nothing I can do and then with it with two minutes of questioning you go.Well, there is something we we just discovered something you can do.
Oh, yes, but it's means I might earn less money you go.But if people are out this is where sometimes that you're after nothing changing but you having everything you want might be born in the wrong Century.That's not really how life works.But if the balance and the sleep is really genuinely valuable to you.
Maybe it's worth considering the drop in income.Um having this is not you this is those people over there.Are you having to do nights where you aren't on cool?Does that make sense?The question is how can I have exactly what I want without anything changing and having perfect balance in the old way that people to find balance, you know, I don't really I'm not really interested in that question because it's a bit of a bit of a juvenile one if it is, how can I genuinely on on Earth in real life?
Life have a meaningful existence where I contribute and I both have a sense of you know, meaning I'm very interested in that question.And I said I'm yet to find a situation where there isn't something we can do better.Yeah.No, I couldn't agree more Nigel.
I said, that's kind of what I think why I asked the question tomorrow.Why are you looking at me for at the moment?All right, I totally believe that that something's got to give and and it's a matter of someone asking questions and it's helpful when someone else ask you the questions because you can't somehow seem to ask the questions yourself when you do get stuck you get stuck in you and you're biased by the confines of your limitations right now, but it's until someone actually Goes like is that is that real?
There's is is that actually possible like it?What is what if something if you could have anything and there was no limitations, what would that look like and then all of a sudden they're like oh and then you can reverse engineer that so I think it's quite powerful what you're saying Nigel and them in a fact that it's helpful to have someone or at least you found that when you're able to ask those questions to talk to people they really do see that actually there is things that they can do it.
Can I raise another?Point guys where if everyone in every industry says what success looks like he's working really really really really hard all the time without thinking about it and having time for yourself and having a enjoyable struggling to find a word other than ballots, but enjoyable me time make sense painful or guilty and that's what everyone in positions of power and seniority in your industry.
That's the behavior and the attitudes that they model.Then we all just perpetuating a and making worse a bad situation.So Society changes and people who are successful have I think a a responsibility to nudge things in the right direction?
So in England where I was born a hundred and fifty years ago, we used to put eight year old children down Minds because they could fit through smaller holes.You know and that that's true.They can wasn't that clever.
You know what it was.You don't really want to leave that there's an eight-year-old kid should be playing in the garden not down a mine.Yeah, so, you know my headmistress at my girls.My twin girls school was back at work eight hours after she gave birth to Child and she was back at work because she wants to be a role model for the girls if I wanted to kill myself because you get your be.
I know what you're trying to do, sweetheart, but you're a moron.Yeah, you're doing the very very worst thing.Can you imagine if you were the geography teacher at that school?And you were thinking of having a baby you think Bloody ell?I was hoping to have six months off.Apparently.I'm only allowed nine hours.So for the people who have cracked it Schubert you Embarrassed but with your stupid surfing photo.
You should be proud of it you go.Actually I'm a successful that and I go surfing I don't mean bragging with your wonderful life, but is people it's so wonderful when I see and I work with lots of very successful CEOs and most of them are rattled but the ones who are the most successful actually do have balance in the way the people use it they have got happy marriages and they do know their kids and they have got friends and they do enjoy their life.
I'll let you know and you go so it is possible then go.Yes, it bloody is you can have it all I'm here to tell you you can have it all not all on the Tuesday and all on the Wednesday can have a meaningful life that the the philosophy that is you've got to have a career that leads to a lonely old age full of regret the philosophy that you've got to spend all you're going to ruin your health.
To build wealth.So then you can spend your wealth to repair your house in your old age.So start he's gone mad.It needs conversations where you go, you know, we're only here for 80 years.How are you going to use those years on this planet?And guess what?There are a whole bunch of very very successful people in every every Endeavour including being a vet who have got meaningful lives.
And if we have to Overlay meaningful lives to mean idiotic daily balance as perk Cosmopolitan magazine not interested in the conversation but there are people you will know very very happy successful.There's absolutely that I love your story about the the principal the nervous at the same conference that I saw you speak Idol.
I went to a talk with other researchers from the UK.They did research on the under veggie profession and the end the topic was why do It's leave the profession and one of the three main reasons was that they felt that they didn't belong in this profession because they look at their employers and at the business owners and at their lack of well, let's call it balance the way they always there early and they leave late and they don't take holidays and the young vets go.
Oh, that's not for me.That's not I'm not that person if that's the expectation then I'm out.Whereas I think on.The flip side the those owners and and and bosses think well, I need to be exact as you say I need to model how it should be.
I need to be the first one in and the last one out but that's my responsibility as a bias that will inspire my my vets to do work hard.And actually what they're doing is actually demotivating their veterinarians.I used to work.The CEO of Microsoft would leave early on a Friday every Friday and wouldn't respond to emails.
Over the weekend and she delivered do that for the reverse reason.The reason you just said you wanted to model not this is what you do.You've got to be the first in the versatility of now I'm leaving I'm leaving first.I'm not the last to leave.I'm the first to leave and you wouldn't say because I've got to go to the doctor.
I'm leaving because it's Friday and I want to leave a quarter to four because I'll beat the traffic and I have a long weekend now, she was deliberately doing at so other people could be legitimised in so, you know, there isn't a gold star for being visibly busy.
When you get to the Pearly Gates all you were really really busy.So what you know good for you.I mean, you know it is you Giraldo the other wonderful vets who got, you know balance and meaning it got such an important role to play for the younger generation where you know, we all know that the gender profile of the vetting the vet profession is completely transformed.
So young women who want to have a family and children think and and Being a vet is for me not.Oh gosh.What I want to have kids.I can't be of ahead and how ridiculous is that but if that's the only thing that they've seen and again back to the conference in America is we got into some wonderful conversations where people were going my my goodness.
I really open their mind you go.Yes, we need to start saying to those people not suck it up and work 15-hour days and you know, I'm going to think it's really clever that you never take your holidays and you work all weekend.I say that's not clever.And week you can be you know, you can have a career in this profession and have a life that you find meaningful and I used to work in the advertising industry and there's nothing wrong with the appetite engineering but I would look at the people who've made it to the very top.
You know, I'm Global CEOs and think I just don't want your life.Now I don't mean that in a superior way, but as in just for me, I don't want your life.And you go well, okay, you know what?I want my kids to be, you know, the things that trainee lawyers have to go through it.
You know again, I I remind you of the eight-year-old kid down the mine.I know you can make young people work all the hours of God sends and think it's clever.I just don't think it's necessary.We went through a actually when you talked about modeling and role modeling the change and changing the culture.
It's a real big culture change if the what it was previously was long hours.And so so when I started an emergency, the hours are used to be used to do was anywhere between eight hour shifts to the longest I've ever done was 22 and a half hours that was straight and it became a badge of honor to be able to pull long shifts and back it up five hours later and do the same thing again.
And we created the culture of just you know, the longer they're the tough you are and and the more resilient you were and and this is suited for you because you could you can handle the the pressure and you can handle the the the lack of sleep and still be productive.
And and the way well what we had to do is forever as part of actually staying in accordance with with legislation and Fatigue management isn't in is start to roll that fatigue management policies around minimum limonene shifts to like 12 hours or something.
So 12 hours to deliver.You look really long time.And yeah, I think it's that I think there's a there's almost a more Sinister problem and this involves real self awareness and I've been guilty of this in the past myself.
So I'm not I'm not saying this as a saint is I think there's a problem with the older generation which I include myself in that 155 is a subconscious or in some cases, which is very Sinister conscious attitude, which is I want them to have it as hard as name.
Yep.So just pretend you are that minor and you did go through holes when you were eight.Do you look great year old daughter and son and so I want you to do it because I had to Will do you say I am pleased that you're going to have it easier than me.So we got to find it in our hearts where you go just because you had to do a 22-hour shift and I'm very impressed.
You're older and Well Done doesn't mean that anyone else has to now you might there's take it away from you.There might be people who had to go through the long hard yards to earn the badge to prove that they can make it in the tough world of being a vet that want to put other people through it as well.
Have we got it in our hearts to make the Next Generation have a more reasonable work existence.And the shocking truth is for some people.No, they don't you know, I'm a lawyer and I want training lawyers to bloody.
Well put up with our what I had to put up with and what we need leaders who go do you know what I had to go through some stupid a pram not my employees go through what so they can have it easier than you.Yes, they are.Well, and in fact bench that bend you're out of shape of the you're not particularly nice person, but you know, does that mean exactly?
No, I just couldn't agree you had to do it or the previous generation had to do it.You know, that's what that's what progress means, you know you go.We are evolving, you know, women want to be vets women want to have children, you know men want to be more engaged with their families not just go off and you know, but but all of those things doesn't mean that the secret to work life balance is spending more time with your kids.
If you've worked it out and you what you want to do is just work.Harder than anyone else and make more money.That's also fine.Now.He has this been of any use to you.I'm sorry that it keeps on breaking out but it's been very nice to talk to you about.It's extremely useful I could die could talk to you for days.I wear it when I change deck will stop talking about ballads just for intrastate more about Nigel.
I'm going to take a leaf out of out of your podcast if anybody hasn't listened to Nigel's podcast five of my life.It's a fantastic one, very very entertaining David Lee makes those flights go a lot faster and Nigel asks, His guests to tell to tell him five of their favorite things and it's a book in a movie and a place and experience.
I forget the last one.Anyways, I'm going to ask you as a as a podcaster.What what is your favorite podcast to listen to?Ah, what was so I'm not suggesting anyone else.This is do it, but it's called hornet heaven and it's about it's actually done by a friend of mine, but it's about fans of a football club in England called waffle.
Okay?Yeah.Okay and I mean and it's the reason I think it's one of the best called costs out there is because it's got an idea in it that so many I mean the idea and the idea is when what for Fans die they go to Hornet.
They called the horns that they go to heaven where they still follow the footprints are so what you know, as you will know is the world isn't short of podcasts.There are lots of problems what I'm trying to do with mine and what Ali is doing with Hornet Heaven is to have an idea that if there's a format does that make sense of fiber my life, you know, someone comes on and want to choose a TV program rather than a film what they They can't if someone wants to choose six things rather than five, but they can't know it's like mine, you know, it's a hornet having this because that's very very specific.
There was a very very specific idea within it that's authentic and based in love that makes sense.Maybe obviously what the fan itself.Right, and then the very last thing so you've had your very successful Ted Talk.Have you got any Ted Talk that you love that that you think people have to listen to?
Yeah, and I was this this to that the guy I like and I like lots of them but one is how to create a movement and it's only it's only sort of four minutes long that one and that's about which is wonderful.So I've set up a few things in my life Earth hour and the Sydney skinny and whatever and he talked very compelling interest all about how it's not the first person IE me who comes up with the idea and you know launches it that matters.
It's the second person.It's the followers that make it a success don't wipe out the city's getting into the naked spooning that happens every year.The reason why it was such a success from year One is because after I set it up a group of women who were running a they decided to do it and thought it was a great idea and then they talked about it.
So he deconstructs the the role of Nigel versus then obviously it wouldn't have happened if I hadn't come up with the idea, but the people who are Really important a bit like we were saying about people having leadership in work-life balance is someone come up with the idea and then the followers the first follower is the really important person to focus on so who is going to be that first follower in the veterinary industry that's going to actually be the shining example at the second one is Make Love Not porn.
Well then well, then you should alright.Okay, I think we'll let you go then.I don't think you've got a taxi to catch.Thank you so so very much.I think that was very useful and let's stay in touch you.But anyway now we've connected I would love to thank you.
No, thank you.Thank you.I will.

Nigel Marsh