March 21, 2025

#139: Stop The Overwhelm: Veterinary Productivity Secrets from the Getting Things Done Master. With David Allen

#139: Stop The Overwhelm: Veterinary Productivity Secrets from the Getting Things Done Master. With David Allen

In this Vet Vault episode, we are joined by renowned productivity expert David Allen, creator of the "Getting Things Done" (GTD) methodology. Rather than focusing on traditional notions of productivity—doing more in less time for profit—this conversation explores a deeper, more mindful goal: achieving clarity and presence in a high-pressure clinical environment. David outlines how GTD principles can help veterinarians navigate the cognitive overload that stems from the unpredictable nature of vet practice, including constant interruptions, heavy caseloads, and incomplete mental loops.
The discussion moves from the conceptual (the value of a “mind like water”) to the highly practical, such as how to effectively capture, clarify, and organise tasks during a typical chaotic shift. David also shares insights on managing interruptions, structuring team rounds for better flow, and creating trusted systems to reduce mental clutter. With special attention to the veterinary profession’s unique pressures, this episode offers valuable tools and reflections for anyone seeking to bring order to the whirlwind of daily clinical work.

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Season 1

Veterinary practice can be unpredictable, exhausting, and full of interruptions - not that conducive to getting things done, right? But what if you could handle it all with mind-like-water calm?

In this episode I pick the brain of productivity legend David Allen, creator of Getting Things Done (GTD), to show you exactly how. This isn’t about squeezing more into your day — it’s about cutting mental clutter, regaining focus, and feeling in control, even when it all hits the fan.You'll learn simple, actionable GTD strategies that busy vets can use today:

Master the 5 GTD steps for veterinary practice:

  • Capture: Never lose track of to-dos in a busy clinic again
  • Clarify: Break down complex patient tasks into clear next steps
  • Organise: Build bulletproof systems your whole team can trust
  • Reflect: Create powerful review routines for team rounds and personal clarity
  • Engage: Focus on what matters, when it matters

Beat interruptions without losing your mind

  • Why task-switching drains your brain — and what to do instead.
  • The simple tools that keep you sane and focused.
  • How to ‘park’ distractions and re-engage fast.

Transform team rounds and communication

  • The secret to closing open loops (and reducing anxiety for everyone)
  • How structured reflection makes complex caseloads manageable
  • Balancing roles and flexibility for smooth team dynamics

 

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Topics and Timestamps

03:09 Mind Like Water: The Key to Clarity

05:15 Challenges in Veterinary Productivity

20:33 Practical Tips for Capturing Tasks

28:58 Managing Multiple Projects and Tasks

29:26 The Importance of Knowing the Next Step

30:14 Dealing with Task Shifting and Interruptions

32:25 Organizing Physical and Mental Spaces

35:43 Team Dynamics and Productivity

38:02 Effective Rounds42:20 Balancing Defined Roles and Flexibility

47:35 Book recommendations 

48:49 Pass along question

 

How Veterinarians Can Apply GTD to Clinical Practice
According to David, veterinarians can apply the Getting Things Done (GTD) methodology to their clinical practice by focusing on achieving clarity and presence amidst the demands of their work. The core principle of having a "mind like water" – being clear, undistracted, flexible, and appropriately reactive – is the underlying goal of applying GTD in this context.
Here's how specific GTD principles can be adopted for the demands of clinical veterinary work:
  • Capture Everything That Has Your Attention: Veterinarians face constant interruptions and a multitude of tasks related to different patients. To manage this, it's crucial to capture every thought, task, and commitment that arises. David Allen suggests using low-tech methods like a paper pad and pen or a physical in-tray for immediate capture. Digital tools like Braintoss (which sends captured items to email) can also be used, provided they are emptied regularly into a trusted system. The key is to get these items out of your head, which Allen describes as "a crappy office... for having ideas not for holding them". This prevents mental clutter and the feeling of low-level anxiety caused by trying to remember everything.
  • Clarify What Each Captured Item Means and What Action is Required: Once items are captured, the next step is to clarify what they are and what needs to be done about them. This involves asking:
    • Is it actionable? If not, it should be trashed, incubated (put on hold for later review), or kept for reference.
    • What is the desired outcome? For a veterinary context, this could be the successful treatment and discharge of a patient.
    • What is the very next action? This needs to be specific (e.g., "call Mrs. Jones about blood results," "do x-rays for Fluffy"). Allen emphasises that defining both the desired outcome and the next action are the "zeros and ones of productivity". In the context of multiple patients, each patient can be seen as a "project" with a series of next actions required to reach the desired outcome (e.g., getting the patient to the discharge point).
  • Organise the Results of Your Thinking: The outcomes of the clarification stage need to be organised into a trusted system. This system serves as a reminder of what needs to be done and when. For veterinarians, this could involve:
    • Maintaining easily viewable and complete lists of phone calls to make, lab results to check, and procedures to perform.
    • Using practice management software effectively to track appointments and tasks.
    • Utilising the physical in-tray as a temporary holding space for notes and reminders that need further processing.
    • Organising next actions by context (e.g., calls to make, things to do at the surgery station).
  • Reflect and Review Your Commitments Regularly: To avoid being driven by the "latest and loudest," it's essential to step back and review the totality of your commitments. For individual veterinarians, this could mean regularly looking at their task lists and project statuses to ensure they have a clear picture of what needs to be done. In a team setting, this reflection process happens during hospital rounds. To make rounds more effective:
    • Someone needs to own or be accountable for running the rounds.
    • The focus should be on identifying "open loops" – tasks or situations that are not yet resolved or where the next action is unclear.
    • Rounds should aim to clarify the status of projects (patients), define next steps, and ensure that the necessary information is shared, especially during shift handovers.
  • Engage with Your Work with Clarity and Confidence: By consistently capturing, clarifying, organising, and reflecting, veterinarians can engage with their work with a clear and uncluttered mind, leading to a sense of confidence rather than operating out of hope. This allows for more focused and effective action, enabling them to handle the unpredictable nature of clinical practice more effectively.
Dealing with Interruptions and Task Shifting:
The constant interruptions in veterinary practice can be cognitively taxing. To mitigate this:
  • Don't leave open loops: When an interruption occurs, make a quick note of what you were doing before addressing the interruption.
  • Use a physical in-tray: If interrupted, put whatever you were working on (notes, patient files) into your in-tray. This serves as a physical reminder of where you left off.
  • Train your team: Encourage colleagues to drop non-urgent requests into your in-tray rather than interrupting you directly. This requires trust that the items in the in-tray will be dealt with appropriately.
Team Productivity:
For productivity as a team:
  • Define team focus: Regularly identify what has the team's attention to ensure everyone is aware of key priorities.
  • Clarify roles and responsibilities: While specific roles are important for accountability, flexibility is also crucial in a dynamic environment like a veterinary clinic. Teams need clear "rules of engagement" and standards that allow individuals to step outside their defined roles when necessary.
  • Implement effective reflection processes: Regular team meetings or rounds should focus on the status of all ongoing cases and situations, ensuring that next actions are clear and assigned.
  • Learn from experience: Conduct debriefs after challenging situations to identify what went wrong, why, and how processes can be improved.
David Allen recommends that individuals interested in learning more about GTD should start with the new edition of his book, Getting Things Done, or explore resources on his website (www.gettingthingsdone.com). For team productivity, his book on teams provides best practices, and he suggests that entire teams read it and then collectively decide on areas for improvement. The key takeaway is that applying GTD in veterinary practice is about building systems and habits that promote a clear mind, enabling veterinarians to be present and effective in their demanding profession.
Building Trusted Capture Systems: Tips for Scattered Minds
Building a trusted capture system is crucial, especially if you find your mind feels scattered. According to David Allen, "your mind is for having ideas not for holding them", so the first step is to get those thoughts and commitments out of your head and into a reliable place. Here are some tips based on the sources:
  • Choose a Capture Tool That Suits You: Allen personally uses low-tech methods like a paper pad and pen at his desk and a note taker wallet with a pen in his back pocket. These are reliable, require no batteries or Wi-Fi, and are readily available for capturing thoughts as they arise. For digital capture, he uses an app called Braintoss on his iPad, which immediately sends anything entered to his email, a "trusted place to throw it". The key is to find a tool that you will consistently use.
  • Keep Your Capture Tools Accessible: Whether it's a notebook in your pocket, a pad on your desk, or a digital app on your phone or tablet, ensure your chosen capture tools are always within easy reach. This minimises the friction of capturing a thought before it's forgotten.
  • Capture Everything That Has Your Attention: Don't filter or judge what you capture at this stage. Any thought, task, reminder, or idea that pops into your head should be written down. In a busy environment like a veterinary clinic, this might include "call Mrs. Jones," "do the x rays for fluffy," or a reminder about a lab result.
  • Establish a Physical Inbox: Consider implementing a physical inbox in your workspace. This can be a tray or a designated spot where you can put any notes, documents, or physical reminders you collect throughout the day. Allen finds his physical in-basket "really quite helpful in terms of if you're getting a lot of interruptions or you're getting a lot of things you don't expect". Encourage colleagues to also use this inbox to drop off requests instead of directly interrupting you.
  • Don't Let Captured Items Linger: The capture stage is only the first step. For your system to be truly trusted, you need to process what you've captured regularly. This leads to the clarify stage, where you decide what each captured item means and what action, if any, is required. If you don't process your captured items, they can become as chaotic as your head, with notes scattered everywhere.
  • Empty Digital Capture Regularly: If you choose digital capture methods, ensure you empty them regularly into your trusted system. Allen's use of Braintoss, which sends items directly to his email, ensures that captured thoughts are in a place he checks.
  • Train Yourself and Others: If you work in a team, you can train everybody around you to use your capture system, such as dropping notes into your in-tray instead of interrupting you. However, this requires you to then deal with the note in your in basket; otherwise, people will resort to interrupting you again.
  • Embrace Low-Tech Simplicity: Allen notes that "with every click, you lose people", highlighting the simplicity and directness of low-tech capture methods. For individuals who find digital systems overwhelming or distracting, a simple paper and pen can be a more reliable starting point.
By consistently using a capture system that works for you and regularly processing its contents, you can build a trusted external repository for your commitments, freeing up your mind to focus on the task at hand – moving towards that "mind like water" state.
It's a sign that I saw once in one of my favorite coffee shops, it said drink coffee so you can do dumb things faster and with more enthusiasm.Now, when I say the word productivity, that is sort of what it can feel like, right?And especially in the context of work, particularly work where how much money you generate is directly linked to how much you can achieve every hour.
That's not the kind of productivity that this episode is about.The goal of productivity, according to David Allen, our guest for this one is an uncluttered mind.If that sounds good to your oh so frazzled mind, I hear you.This one is for you and for me.
I'm Hubert Emstrom and you are listening to The Vet Vault, where we learn from the best minds in the world about life and work and make it our very own specifically for the vet profession.And in this episode we are talking productivity.So many listeners have reached out to me to ask for this topic, telling me about the struggle to be efficient and to get through their workload.
And we are very spoiled to have one of the most well respected productivity experts in the world as our guest for this episode.David Allen is the.Creator of the Getting Things Done or GTD methodology and founder of a global training and consulting organization dedicated to helping people bring clarity and productivity to their work and lives.
His Seminole book, Getting Things Done, The Art of Stress Free Productivity, has sold over 1.6 million copies and is often called the Bible of business and personal productivity.David has been recognized by Forbes as one of the top five executive coaches in the United States, and he has inspired millions to rethink how they approach.
Focus and workflow.In this conversation, we figure out how the GTD principles can be adopted for the demands of clinical veterinary work.We discuss how veterinarians can achieve clarity and presence despite constant interruptions, shifting priorities, and heavy caseloads.
The conversation also covers strategies for being productive as a team, including structuring hospital rounds and building practical capture and reflection habits in a fast-paced clinical environment.I personally took a lot from this one and we'll be revisiting it often.I hope you do too.
So let's get into it.David Allen, welcome to the Red Vault and thank you so much for making time to chat to us.Thanks for the invitation here.I appreciate.
It as a long time fan of your work from a personal productivity perspective, I'm absolutely honored and flattered to have you on here.I know your work from the perspective of what I do with the Red Vault.So I've got a million things that I need to achieve and I have long term projects and your getting things done framework helps a lot with that.
But for this one, I want to focus more on the the very specific veterinary scenario, which I feel is more of a condensed time frame.We need to achieve things, but it's in a in a one shift period of time versus I have three months to finish this project or something like that.
So does that sound sensible?Do you think we could tackle that?Sure, Brad, give it a shot.But before we dive into the the strategies and the getting things done tips and tricks, I want to start with can you talk to me about mind like water?What does that mean?
Why do you talk about?Yeah, well, I, I, I stole that in the I studied in the martial arts.I got a black belt in karate back in my 20s.And mind like water was a phrase that Bruce Lee's sensei used.And he said, Bruce, you need, need to be like water.
You know, it needs to be flexible, but it's powerful but calm when needed.So I use the idea of basically of sort of being present.You know, the mindfulness people these days focus on your breathing, come present so that you give full attention to whatever you has your attention.
So I use the mind like water as a just a metaphor really, for having a clear head, not being distracted so that you're present with whatever it is that you're doing.And is that the goal for you of increased productivity?
Because when we talk and, and I think specifically in our profession, when we talk about let's be more productive, is the, the risk that it sounds a little bit like, well, let's get you to achieve more per hour so that the business can make more money per hour and let's get more done so we can make more money.
But it's, it's not about that.Like Why is David Allen interested in productivity?Well, I'm interested in clarity.So unfortunately productivity's got a lot of baggage as a word because people, to your point, think that it means that I got to work harder, got to do more and more to get to here and don't need more to do and so forth.
Now, if that's what people want, then sure, But I don't think that's, you know, necessarily what everybody wants.And to me, it's really about appropriate engagement.I use that term or that phrase.It's really more I want to make sure that I'm feeling confident about what it is that I'm doing what I'm doing so that I'm not distracted.
That to me is the most productive state that has to be present basically.Right, so that you can do what you're doing to the best of your ability and and actually enjoy the process because that that's exactly the the reason I think I wanted to have this conversation is so often on shift as a clinical veterinarian.
There is that feeling of very much not that, you know, I'm doing my procedure here and especially, you know, if something's going wrong, let's say I'm doing a surgery, things are going wrong, then you're very focused.But for the rest of the day, if you're doing one thing you're doing in dental, but your head's already with oh, I've got a oh shit, I've got a phone Mrs. Jones about this blood results and I still need to do this and there's a low level anxiety in here.
The feet are peddling all the time.And is that what we're trying to avoid?We want to get to a place of mine like water of saying well, it's focusing and be present.Yeah, what you, what you don't want to do is over or under react.And that's really more the sort of water idea.
Water's not confused about how to be, you know, it's just, it's, it's appropriate with its environment.That's to me, what the end game here is, is to be appropriately engaged.If things pop into your head more than once, you're not appropriately engaged with them.
That's not a judgement.That's just the truth.It it keeps popping into your head because there's still some decision you haven't made yet or you haven't organized the results of that, of that thought in some trusted person or system.If you've done that, then it's not on your mind.
Doesn't have to be on your mind.It's OK to have stuff on your mind if if you like thinking about it, you know I need cat food.If that pops into your head twice, you're not appropriately engaged with your cat.And This is why we're going to use your principles is to try and get to that space where you can put that occurring thought out of your mind and focus on the thing that you that you want to actually be engaged in.
And it's not hard to do and you don't have to go very far.Just notice what's on your mind.Why is it on your mind?What do you need to do to get it off your mind?And that's my criteria about how I sort of manage my life and my world.
They'll say it, look, if it's on my mind, why is it, and what do I need to do to get it off my mind doesn't mean that I'm finishing it.It just means that I, I'm now appropriately engaged with whatever that commitment is.But you see, most people, most people have no clue how many commitments they actually have.
And that's what I've spent 45 years, you know, my last 45 years of my career, spending thousands of hours with people getting them to get clear about what their commitments are with themselves are.And most people don't have a clue.I'm excited to learn more because even listening to that, I go, yeah, that that's me.
I, I, I know I've got a lot to do, but I'm not sure exactly how much.And that's after reading your book.So, so, so let me outline the problem.Our listeners will be familiar with what I'm going to say, but just to, to put you in the picture of the average day of the average veterinarian, I'd say most of my listeners are probably small animals.
So dogs and cats, private practitioners, we definitely will have some cow vets and horse vets, but I think the same sort of thing applies.Your average day is you walk into the clinic.This is not counting emergency where I work, I, I work in emergency and every day is different.
So there's no expectation of, I'm going to have a, a structure and a plan.You kind of just have to deal with stuff that comes your way.But in private practice, you'll work, you'll walk in in the morning and there's a plan for the day.There's an outline of a plan.Like you have your appointment list on your practice management software.You'll know I've got 15 appointments scheduled throughout the day, 20 minutes, maybe half an hour appointments.
And somewhere in there will probably be a block for procedures or surgeries and X-rays and all that sort of jazz.And then there's a bunch of admin that needs to be done in between phone misses this phone that results.Do that do this all these little tasks in between.If you're in a good practice, there'll be a time block for that.
Not always the case.Sometimes it's a little bit of well get those things done whenever you can possibly likely in your lunch break.What was meant to be a lunch break.But the, the challenge that I find that it's like, I, I feel like and I, I don't want to recap your entire book and the whole system.
Anybody who hasn't read it really do look into that the getting things done systems.But when we have that fixed plan for the day, I feel like you can apply the principles which will go through a couple to some extent, But the thing that gets in the way a little bit is the extra things that come your way.
You're like, OK, I have a plan.I'm going to do this. 10:00 I'm going to start that space surgery and then an emergency rushes through the door or the receptionist comes and tells you, Oh, Miss Jones is really upset because you never called her about the blood results yesterday or little things popping up all day.Which can I think I wrote down a quote that you said somewhere about even when you get your ducks in a row, they tend to go for their own way again at some point during the day.
So I'd love to figure out how do we a set up the day for maximum productivity and then also make allowances for these little things that get thrown at you throughout the day.Yeah.But the question would be why?Why do people have such a full schedule?
Is that because they need them?They need the money?For what reason?That they're not giving themselves plenty of breathing room like between their appointments.So David is an excellent question that I think many employed veterinarians will ask that question.
Well, we, you know, we have a vet ourselves.We have two little Cavaliers and it takes a while to get an appointment with him because he likes to give plenty of time for each appointment.So, you know, it takes several weeks sometimes for us to get an appointment for, you know, regular checkups and so forth.
There's stuff not like emergencies.So you know, the question would be OK, why are you wall to wall in terms of your your practice?Yep.So I can give you the answer of my, my opinion on the answer, but it, it, it sounds like your first answer to my original question is a, if you can at all have good systems in place so that there is a little bit of leeway, a little bit of flex in the system that I, that I get that right If it, and that's a managerial issue.
Yeah, that would be the.That would be my first thing to address.If I was dealing with somebody who had that kind of a practice, I'd say why?And that's OK if you need to stay busy and want to be as busy as you can be, but then you're going to have to pay the piper and admin time on the weekend or whatever if you don't have room to be able to kind of build that stuff in.
Hey, in about one minute's time, David is going to tell you how to get better at dealing with interruptions and staying on task.But first, I'm going to interrupt you.I just wanted to give you an update on two things that's happening in the Vet Vault that I'm really excited about.First of all, Vets on Tour and our New Zealand Snow conference from 10 to 15th August 2025.
I've partnered with a little company called Vets on Tour who hosts continuing education in spectacular places in the world.And for this year, we are heading to Wanaka in New Zealand from the 10th to 15th of August where we will be hosting some top notch continuing education, definitely some live podcasting, but also with some long gaps for exploring and and fishing or just chilling in one of the world's most spectacular locations you can imagine.
We can only take 80 people in total and we're currently selling our early bird tickets.When I checked a second ago, we had 7 early birds tickets left.Those tickets will save you 20% on our standard ticket pricing.So don't snooze on this.Oh, and our early bird pricing and also definitely the Wednesday night Fancy dress social events slash party is made possible by the support of our two key sponsors, IDEX and Heels Pet Detrition.
The second thing I want to tell you about is quizzes.A lot of people ask me about our clinical podcast.Do they count for continuing education or CE points?The short answer is yes.Regardless of what you do with them, listening to them in most places, most countries, most states will give you some continuing education points.
But in a lot of places.If you do a quiz.It's considered as assessed continuing education and you get more points.So what we've been doing is we've been adding quizzes to all of the podcasts.We have done all of the medicine episodes and almost all of the surgery episodes, and the ECC episodes are going to be next.So once you've listened to an episode, you can go onto Mighty where we keep the show notes, open up the space for that episode, and there should.
Be a link for a quiz.And once you pass, you'll get an automatic certificate that shows how much time you've listened for and that you've successfully completed a quiz.Here's a little insider tip the answers.To the quizzes are.All in the show notes associated with that episode.Don't check that out.It's out there, it's useful and I think the easiest way to get your CE points for the year right back to David and more productivity.
Now obviously 1 can be as efficient as possible in terms of dealing with all that stuff.And I think one of the criterion about how well you do my methodology is how easily can you deal with surprise.
Is that a skill?That you can.Develop because you're right that regardless, in defense of practice owners, regardless how well you structure the day, it can still fall apart.And then you are, you know, the the stuff that the team on the floor, you have to deal with it.
Sometimes you have a perfect schedule plan and three emergencies working at the same time, and suddenly you have a your To Do List is just ballooned into something massive and you've got to get through it.Yeah, I forget what the statistics are, but many years ago I I was reading that that at least 40% of your day you can't expect.
So building in room to didn't deal with surprise and and give yourself that flexibility.That's something you can get better at.I think, you know, I use the martial arts analogies.You know, if you jump by four people in the dark alley, you don't want 2000 unprocessed emails hanging around your psyche.
You know, you need to be you need to be clear.And I mean, a whole lot of my training was, was how do, how do I stay clear at any point in time.That's why, again, the mindfulness, both folks these days, they focus on your breathing that kind of brings you present.Yeah.
Yeah.But I learned that 40 years ago or 50 years ago when the bright was in the martial arts.Yeah.And I think there's many scenarios in our in our profession that lends itself to that built in clarity because that's the necessity.I mean, your example of being attacked in an alleyway, there's many scenarios in many cases when you're doing your physical hands on animal work that requires full focus and you have no other choice.
You know, if you're in a surgery and something's bleeding or a dog just rushed through the door and it's been hit by a car and it's life or death, focus is really easy because you haven't, you can't worry about what are we going to have for lunch or who else do I have to call?And it's that it's actually one of the really good parts of the job is there are opportunities that lend itself to that flow state.
But then, then you're going to go back and do the admin and the patient records and all those sort of things.And that.I think that's what many of us struggle with is to do that.So dealing with that surprise, how do we get better at it?Can we use the getting things done principles to get better at that deal with surprise element?
Yeah.Yeah, of course.I mean, the, the whole idea of the getting things done methodology is how do I appropriately engage with stuff?So I don't have anything on my mind unless they accept whatever I want on my mind at that moment.And so that's why there's the five stages that I recognize, which is capture, clarify, organize, reflect and engage those five stages.
I didn't make those up.I just recognize that's what you do if you're trying to get control of a situation.I need to capture what's got my attention.I need to then clarify what I'm going to do about it, if anything.I then need to organize the results of that thinking in some sort of way.
If I can't finish the thing when I'm thinking of it, I need some reminder of whatever it is that I need to be reminded about in some sort of system that's organized.And then I need to make sure I reflect and, and review the totality of my commitments at some point in time so that I can see the whole picture as opposed to being driven just by latest and loudest.
And so being able to see the whole picture, because that's the reflect process.And I don't know how often a vet would need to do that.But, you know, obviously anybody who just looked at their calendar is already doing a version of that.OK, look, here's what's coming up, here's what's coming toward me.
And that's just, you know, sort of lifting up and looking around and sort of locating yourself in space and time.That's the reflect process.So that then when you engage, which is Step 5, which is then where do I put my attention and my activity in some trusted way so that I trust what I'm doing and I'm coming out of confidence, not out of hope in terms of this is what I think I should be doing.
So that's kind of it.It's advanced common sense in a way.Methodology is not like some new foreign language or some new, you know, technology.It's pretty much look, it's, it's got my attention.I need to write it down somewhere.
I need to then decide sooner than later what I'm going to do about it, if anything.And then that clarify step is an is an important one because that's a lot of people make lists and have all kinds of lists, But most lists that I've seen are incomplete lists of still unclear stuff.
And the lists themselves can then create as much stress as they might ever leave to begin with because you're looking at something and you see things on your list called Mom or bank or God does whatever else is on people's list.
But that means they haven't finished thinking about what?About Mom.Why?Yeah, you probably had one.But why is it on the list?Oh, her birthday's coming.Well, what are you going to do about Mom's birthday?You know, I don't know.Yeah, right.You haven't finished your thinking about whatever is on those lists.
So finishing your thinking, and I sort of scratched my head over all these years why it was so difficult for people to think.The two things that you need to clarify are the desired outcome, what you're trying to accomplish and what the action step you need to take to move the needle on it.
So outcome and action are the are the the zeros and ones of productivity.Basically, you know, what are you trying to this is done when what's true and what does doing look like or does it happen?And those that actually require two different parts of your brain.
The action part comes from sort of the Olympic part of your brain, which is the activity part.You know, that's like get you going, you know, get moving.Then they all come part.That's the forebrain, That's the thing.That's what's the vision, what's the desired outcome.
I get to mark this off as done when, what's true.So getting things done, you got to define what done means and what doing looks like and where it happens.And most people don't do that until the pressure's on, until the heat's on.If there's an emergency, then you'll do that.
But you want to do that ahead of time essentially so that that then that allows you to be appropriately engaged with your commitments.Can I take a step back to the capture step?Step one I I like your saying I can't remember when I read it but your mind is a crap.
You're out for something along those.Well, your mind's for having ideas, not for holding them.Yeah.So can I get practical on on that step because I feel even that's where a lot of us and I'm going to put my hand up start falling down because the you have these thoughts, right?
Oh, I still remember to I'm again, I'm picturing myself two nights ago now, last night on shift.I'll start at the beginning of the shift and I'll on on my iPad.I'll make a list of things I need to get done A to do list for the shift.I need to remember to call Miss Jones, do the do do the X-rays for fluffy.
But then as the night progresses and as more things get added to it, it ends up being a sticky note there and something written in my hand and, and it becomes almost as chaotic as my head because I'm going to, OK, where did I put that note?
I can't remember where my To Do List is.The sort of a thing, if you come across through your own work or with the hundreds and hundreds of people you've dealt with who use your systems tactically, good systems to get it out of your head, that works in a in a structured way.
Yeah, I personally, most of my capture is low tech right here at my desk.I have a pad, you know, paper pad and a bin.OK, necessary, you know, no battery required, no Wi-Fi.And that's what I, no matter what I'm doing, something else pops into my head that I am going to still need to decide something about later on or do something with later on.
I'll grab that and write it down.Obviously I, you know, something I've had for 340 years or so that is in my back pocket.That's a little note taker wallet, right with a pen and a piece of paper.
And I got, I've got 2 notes on that right now and that gets torn off and thrown into my physical entry.This is not an organization system.This is just a capture system.So I'm able to capture stuff wherever because, you know, the more mature you get, the more you're, you have ideas that you're not going to implement where you have that idea or when you have the idea, you know, you'll be buying bread at the store, thinking of something you need to bring up at the meeting and you'd be in the meeting.
Remember, you need bread, right?So if you don't want those thoughts more than once, you better have some sort of a capture tool easily available to you.And you know, you can capture stuff digitally if you want.But the problem is most people, for most people, the digital capture is kind of a black hole.
They throw it in there, but then they don't do anything with it, or they can't find it, or they don't know what where it went find it to capture digitally as long as you empty it regularly.Is that why you go low tech personally?Have you have you tried digital and went?
Doesn't work for me.I'm going back to pen and paper.I have a capture tool that's on iPhone and on my iPad.It's called brain toss.The reason I like it is because you program it that anything I put in there instantly goes to my e-mail.
So I don't have, I don't have to then relook at where I wrote that.It's automatically because I clean up my e-mail like everything else on a regular basis.Every 24 to 48 hours, my e-mail is all handled, dealt with.So that's a trusted place to then throw it.
So that's why I digitally, I could still capture it there.But again, with every click you lose people.You know, how many clicks do you have to do to get stuff in there and to then to get it back out again?And especially if you're, if you tend to be sort of ADD or ADHD type in terms of attention, it's too much to think about, too much to have to do to use the system to use it.
That's a really good point and I think why I would really want to do this episode.There are theories in our profession that actually fairly large number of veterinarians are on that spectrum of ADHDADD.We created the the focus job at the organizational brain can be a little bit all over the place.
So that's why I want to get granular about creating a good system.So it sounds like I'm trying to think, what am I?What can I try on my work shifts to make me feel less scatterbrained?So it feels like having a physical inbox somewhere in the clinic and then all those little notes, everything that I make have a system of I've got a notebook in my left pocket and I've got a notebook in my consult room.
And any notes I make, Chuck it in the inbox and then circle back at some point to get to the clarity stage, which is what does that look like?So you sit down, pull out all your notes and what's next?And then you decide, OK, that clarifying stage of the process, David, is that figuring out what takes first priority, what needs to get done first, when is it a planning session of what I'm going?
To do no, it's not so much the prioritizing happens once you've captured everything and clarified everything and then you step back and then use your intuition to then make a good judgement call about what to do next.You know, and I got the whole diagram in my book about that.
You know, first question is, is it an actionable item?You know, a lot of times I write stuff down and go really too much wine day, but that's crazy.I do you're not going to do anything about that.Then I throw it away.So is it an actual item, yes or no?
If no, and there are a lot of things that you get that there's no action on it.And that could be either trash.I now that I've seen it, I don't need it.I didn't need it to begin with.It could be reference anyway, I just need to keep that e-mail in case I need to refer back to the project or the person or the situation.
Or it could be there's no action on this now, but there might be a month from now and that's incubate our own hold.So kind of a someday maybe list or a parking lot or something where let me just park that and then review that again in a week or two weeks or a month or whenever I might need to review it again to see if I'm ready to move on or can.
So trash incubate or reference or non actionable things.And we get a lot of those.But then if it is actionable, then it's like, OK, what's the very next action I would need to take to move the needle on this?And that means to get very, very specific.
Is that an e-mail to say on the website to surf something to buy, to store something to talk to somebody about?What's the specific action that needs to be taken?And if one action won't complete whatever this is, what's the project?That's where you can get the outcome in action thinking.
That's what the Claire, that's the, you know, the key essence of of clarification to get clear about it is, OK, here's the next step I need to take.And that won't finish whatever this is about.So give mom the birthday party or increase my bank equity or whatever those things are that represent outcomes that you're committed to.
Do you actually?It's kind of a muscle, It's a cognitive muscle you need to engage with and then train.I feel like I can make that relevant, very much so to our work scenario as veterinarians Tell me if this makes sense.So, so there's actions.
There's one thing I need to do.So David's dog needs a blood sample.So next step, I need to go draw the draw the blood sample.But then because they are time sensitive things, you have your, let's say you got your patient list and there's all these little actions that have to happen throughout the day.But I feel like in from what you're describing, an individual patient is a project almost.
So my project is get this patient out of hospital or, you know, get it to the discharge point.But there's all these little steps that have to happen throughout the day.And what I personally sometimes struggle with is when I have many patients and each of them has all these multiple little steps that have to happen at different times of the day.
But I feel like with your thinking is to go as well, see each patient as a project, sit down, do the the reflection step probably several times a day and go, OK, where we at 4 What's your dog's name, David, so I can use it as an example.Well, it's only for cabbie's name.
I.Have two.One's Phoebe and the other is a nuke.A nuke.All right, so a nuke needs this done.She needs a blood test done at some point.And Phoebe needs, I've got a bigger project for that.But I can split them and sit down and say, OK, next steps for this project is ABC.
And then put that project aside, put that patient aside, next project, what are the next steps for this one?Blah, blah, blah, these things I need to do.And that includes draw the blood, call the owner with the results.Does that make sense?Does that fit into the framework nicely?It does.It does, and you may not know what all the action steps are.
You just need to know what's next.You know, if you like soccer or football, if you're a player on the field, that there's two things that are on their mind.Well, three.One is where am I?What is the current situation?But the two real things are where's the goal and what's the next play?
You may have a strategy, but that next play is going to determine the next play is going to determine the next play is going to determine the next play is all of that with the goal in mind is where's the goal?And it's the driver most people need in their life and their work to act more like a soccer player.
Where's Where's the goal and what's the next play?What's the next move?Where's the where's the ball and where's the goal?Yeah, yeah.I'm going to jump to another point.You've talked quite a bit and you, I think you're right about at least heard you speak on the podcast about the cost of task shifting.
I feel it.I think we all feel it.So I'm busy with reading about Phoebe.And then the receptionist says, oh God, Miss Jones on the phone.She wants to know the blood results or something like that.And then it's, you get pulled out of your focus and then you lost a little bit and it's, it's cognitively taxing.
And, and it's certainly, I'm sure there's systems that you can build into how the practice is run to minimize that, but I still feel like it's inevitable.Can you talk to me about the cost of task shifting?And then are there ways to mitigate that cognitive load of that to make it less of a strain or or to to use your systems to make it less of a of a problem?
I'm not sure I have a really good answer for that.I think Microsoft or somebody was doing doing some research years ago that if you get interrupted, it takes you 20 minutes to get back to whatever it was that you got interrupted by.But trust me, if four people jump you in a dark alley, you're not going to wait 20 minutes to decide what the next move is.
You have to move it, then move, and then move and then move, and then stay clear while you're moving so it doesn't take long to shift your focus.You just need to make sure that you don't leave any open loops hanging out there.OK, That's the critical element.
That's why writing stuff down or having something right with you so you can keep track of that, the stuff that has your attention.Critical for me, anyway.So not leaving open loops, meaning whatever interruption comes your way, put it aside for a couple of seconds and say, well, let me get to a point where I can mentally at least, but maybe physically draw a line.
And so, OK, that's where I left off bookmark.Maybe make yourself a reminder to say you were there with this task, task shift, so that when you come back, you're not, oh, crap, I can't remember where I was.I don't remember what I was doing.And then as you say, that can very well take you minutes at least to get back into well.
That's that's why my physical in basket is right in front of me right now.If somebody came in and suddenly, you know, I got interrupted doing something, whatever I'm working on, I'll threw in my in basket.Then they can deal with whatever the interruption is or whatever.
Then I come back and I go, oh, that's right.That's that thing that I need to then pick up again.So that's my physical.Having physical notes and a physical entry is really quite helpful in terms of if you getting a lot of interruptions, are you getting a lot of things you don't expect so that you don't let stuff lie around somewhere?
See, a lot of people, a lot of people just have piles of stuff that they've let pile up because they, you know, haven't finished their thinking about it and they've just sort of spreading the stuff around in most people's homes.The the entry in a lot of people's homes is the first flat surface inside their door.
My laughter is is not at other people, it is 100% at our house.First flat surface inside the door and sometimes it morphs over onto the dining room table and sometimes it's on the under the kitchen counter and God knows where the stuff is.
It's spread around.There are bills to pay, there's junk mail, there's, you know, there's a letter you need to respond to your God.People have all kinds of stuff like that that they just spread around and then then that just creates this sort of ambient anxiety that, God, there's probably stuff in there that I should do something about or I need to do something deal with, you know, make some decision about it.
And so again, that's the people avoiding the clarify and organize step.They're organized just.Spreading stuff around.Yeah, I'm just looking at my notes that I made for for this conversation and I wrote down a you said or, or wrote somewhere that says you are disorganized.
If you need something somewhere that you don't have or have something somewhere that you don't need.If you have a phone and and discretionary time and you want to be productive, you need to have easily viewable and a complete list of every single phone call you need to make.Otherwise you don't have the information you need in the format.
You need to remind you of what you've agreed with yourself.You'd need to be reminded of anybody who struggles with this will listen to that and go, OK, yes, that's the problem.Because you sit down to do something, you're like, ah, where?Where is this thing that I need?Whether it's a phone number or a piece of equipment or something that you need your job for, right?
Well said.So where do we go with this next?It's it's a I'm loving the idea of a physical inbox.I feel if nothing else, I'm going to try that at work.Do I feel like that could solve a lot of problems now and by and?By the way, you know you need to train everybody around you that you work with or that that you deal with that they can drop stuff into your in tray as opposed to interrupt you and they can write a note down.
Then they have to trust that you're going to then deal with the note in your in basket.If they see that you're dealt not dealing with it, then they're going to have to go interrupt you again, get your get your attention.You mentioned the the others there and and I think that's a big factor because we don't work in isolation.
Most of us.It's you're part of a team, many people having to do many different tasks, which I I realized this week in in reading up about you again, that you published or Co published at least a book last year on teams on getting stuff, getting things done with others.
Yes, how do you make that happen?Because it, it is a little bit like that.If you, you could be as organized if you as you want, but if the business structure of the rest of the team is chaotic, it, it can be very hard.How do we get better at this as a, as a team?Have you got any highlight takeaways from the from the the new book?
Well, the new book is really a whole manual, but all the best practices of the mechanics of how a team works together.It's not, you know, the hard stuff like vision and relationships and stuff like that.We don't really address that.But what we address are essentially the mechanics of how a team works together.
In other words, how late do meetings start?And do you end the meeting without clarifying what's the next action of what we decide and who's handling?And so these are, these are just the, the mechanics essentially.So you could have a team of brilliant soccer players, but if they don't know how to work together as a team, they lose.
The same principles apply.You know, if I walked into your team, I'd go, what's got the team's attention right now in the clinic?What's got the clinic's attention right now?That's the first thing we're going to do is, is define what's got the table.Because that just means if the, the team is not yet appropriately engaged with whatever that is, there's some decision that still needs to be made or some organization that still needs to happen.
That's why it has the team's attention.So you should need to then make sure that the team has a good organization and clarification and then has a good reflection process.How often does a team need to get together and take a look at what's going on with the clinic?
What's going on, you know, and, and how are we doing and, and what do we need to do differently, etcetera.Every team is very different.That's why I haven't designed really a training around it, because the fact that you're a team means you're already doing something right.Because team just means they're some sort of agreed upon purpose.
That's why it's a team.But often times that purpose is unclear.When you talk about these things and specifically that process of reflecting and as you say, deciding what are we paying attention to?That's rounds in a, in a medical, in a veterinary practice, and I'm sure in medical practices, it's it's basically structured periods of reflection of saying, OK, where we at, what's the next step?
Can we review that reflect step as an individual?And then can we see if we can apply that to two rounds?How can we use these principles or how you describe an effective way of reflecting your task list or your To Do List or project list to make team rounds more effective or efficient?
Well, first of all, somebody needs to own the team because then that person would then need to decide how often do we need to do some sort of reflection process in terms of the status of all of our projects and all of our situations right now, I know there's some teams that have to that do have stand up meetings every morning in the factory.
Here's what's changed, here's what's new, here's something we all need to be aware of.And sometimes reviewing your strategy may may need to do that monthly or quarterly, you know, in terms of how you do it.So a lot of it depends on who owns the team and then what did they think?
What's the recursion that they think the team needs to have in terms of the reflection process so that they're comfortable about what they're doing and what they're not doing?So is this like a floor manager or some sort of a team leader or is it just somebody needs to be allocated to say you're in charge of hospital?
Ramps exactly all the above or any of the above.Any of you ever say and somebody says, OK and again, I've it feels like a shift day and I keep drifting towards emergency where there's a lot of new stuff happening.Like your day at 10 in the morning is very different to your day at 2:00 in the afternoon because so many new things have happened.
So that reflection process almost has to happen several times a day, not just the morning meeting.It's like a three or four times a day at for example, where I work, we do handover.At that change over every shift to say, well, let's reflect.That's basically what what our rounds are.It's a reflection session.
So well, here's a task now.So are the key elements to that reflection process beyond somebody has to own it.And it's actually that's insightful to say, well, somebody has to be in charge of rounds.I don't see that that's actually something to consider.But in terms of how it's run structurally, are there key elements that will make it more likely to to have a good outcome or is it really just a let's go through?
This no, you just need to need to make sure that you you can see what are all the open loops that the team is dealing with, What are all the projects.Then you know, what's the status of the different projects in the situation.So, you know, obviously if there's a hand off, if you've got a shift that's coming, you know, what does that shift need to know?
I worked with an organization several years ago, they just started to implement total quality management, TQL.And so one shift what they did was they set up a box in the factory floor and people would put notes in there of stuff that that they thought the next shift should should be aware of.
The problem was nobody ever looked at it.That was about to say, it doesn't grant anybody who's going to look at the box.Yeah, somebody has to be accountable for looking at the box.You mentioned open loops there, and you've talked about loops several times.
What?What does a?Closed loop look like that.That's not a done project, that's just is a closed loop.Just there's a plan.Here's where we're at, and this is the plan.As long as you trust the plan and you trust that the right person's going to be looking at the plan on some consistent basis, that could be a closed loop, OK.
An open loop is.There's this thing that's not done and nobody's quite sure what.What's next?Right.Which is a stressor right behind, behind patient care that it is stressful to go all right, who's who's in charge of this?Right.OK, back to the team's book.
I haven't actually finished the whole book because I only realized a couple of days ago that you have a new book out.So I'm definitely going to dig into that one.But I I'd read through some highlights and couple of the key points.I'll pull two out that stood out to me.The one is having specific roles within the team, knowing what's your job.
But then I found it interesting that a few points later, the next point is flexibility.So how do you mesh those two?Because if they almost seem like they're conflicting, have a very clear role, but also be flexible that I understand that right from my skim read or.
Yeah, No, no, that's right.Well, think about a soccer team need to be highly flexible, but they're very clear about who is forward, who's, you know, who's got what role in terms of the team.So the flexibility really doesn't have anything to do with so much the role itself.
The role often times helps based upon the role that you have.You might need to then be highly flexible in terms of you know how you're engaging with it.Now, because the reason I ask is very specific, I've worked over the 25 years of my career in hospitals where specifically the the the nursing staff or what in the US, what they call them the technicians.
I've worked in teams where they are the technicians, but they don't have a specific role.They're on shift and they are there to do whatever comes their way.And dad has a suite of problems because then it's sometimes a little bit of abdication of responsibility saying, well, that wasn't really my job, if something goes wrong or something doesn't get done.
And then I've worked in hospitals where there's very defined roles.So you are the 2:00 PM hospital nurse and you are the consulting nurse and you the fitness.But the problem with that sometimes can be some of that actually slows down the process because there'll be a little bit of like, well, I'm hospital, that's not actually my my role.
That's not a finger pointing to individuals.It's just people are trying to stick to the system.But is that flexibility to say a little bit of both?Like how do we find the middle ground in in that system there?That's very, very unique to the team.Yeah.It also comes back to standards.
What are our standards of how we operate and rules of engagement, essentially.And you could have flexibility as one of the standards that you have, but a lot of that is determined by paying attention to what went wrong, why did it go wrong?
How can we fix this?What can we do to make sure this doesn't happen again?What did we learn from this situation?So it's a debrief.You know, it's really critical.Yeah, I suppose your metaphor for the soccer team is actually really apartment because you are very much a forward or a back.
But it doesn't mean that if the back has an open shot at goal that you're not going to take it.You're going to go, well, I'm I'm a back, I'm not going to shoot it.Or vice versa.If the forwards there and the somebody's coming at goals, you're going to stop the ball, right?It's it's it's right there.You know what your actual role is.
But but you're flexible.Right.David, that's really insightful.I was going to say we could talk for hours.That's why you have hours and hours of content and books and courses.So probably that's probably the, the main answer is if, if somebody finds this interesting is to engage with your work.
So good question is where two scenarios, let's say on an individual basis, I want to get better at my individual productivity in and outside of work.Where's a good place to start with getting things done system?Well, the, the new edition of Getting Things Done, the book would be the place to start.
It's a manual for really for personal productivity.So it has all the, it's everything we've talked about here.It expands, you know, tremendously in that book.And so that's would be where I start though, if you go to www.gettingthingsdone.com, that's our website.
There's a lot of stuff there.And there's a, we have a free newsletter, you know, comes regularly and that has essays of mine that has all kinds of good stuff in it.Also, you could go to gettingthingsdone.com/youtube.And there's a whole lot of videos of me.
I've done 3 TE DX talks.I've done all kinds of little short videos that people just want a snack on on me and this and this methodology.There's there's places to go.And then from the team's perspective, obviously the answer there is the team's book.
Great starting point.You said you you don't have a course or anything at this point for the team's version of it.No, because it's, again, every team is so different and the team book is really a manual about all kinds of best practices and not every team needs everything in there.
You know, a lot of teams are doing things really well.My recommendation is that everybody on the team should read the book and then have the team get together and decide, hey, Dave, what?What did we learn from this?What opportunities do we have to improve?
OK, then we can't get away without our standard questions.I can't let you go without that.I was going to say the other good place to engage with David and his work is is his podcast, the Getting Things Done podcast.That's where I most of what I know about you is from there behind the book.
Are you a podcast listener beyond producing 1 And if so, not really.OK.Then we have to do we have to default the books, book recommendations, something you've read recently that's made an impact on you that that you think makes a good read?
I I would I would highly recommend Rutger Bregman's book.Humankind is a fabulous book.He's a brilliant historian and has it's well researched.So I would highly recommend humankind.And I don't know if you're familiar with Karen Fryer's work.
He was the animal behavior modification person, training dolphins, training porpoises, training all kinds of people and dogs.I think the title of the book is Reaching the Animal Mind.Fabulous book.And really, and she, she, she died a couple of years ago, but her her work, Karen Fryer Pryor, her first book was Don't Shoot the Dog, basically.
That one.I know.OK.I've heard of that title.I haven't read it, but I'm aware.OK.All right.Yeah.Very relevant to this audience for sure.Yeah.Then the last question is the pass along question where I get a guest from a previous episode to ask a question for my next guest, not knowing who the guest is going to be and vice versa.
We pass it along like that.So the question that you ended up with is what did you learn today?What have you learned today?And then it doesn't have to mean from this conversation, sometime in your day, although your day's only early, your days have been your day short.
So I'll give you an allowance.You can include yesterday in your day.I think what I learned, I was actually reading Karen Pryor's book a lot about how fascinating stuff about behavior change and how a lot of it's operant conditioning coming out of Skinner's work and all positive reinforcement, no punishment, you know, in terms of correction, it's all positive reinforcement.
So always good to be reminded about that for my two dogs.And is that animal specific or is that applicable to humans as well from what you?Oh, it's applicable to everybody, but it has a lot to do with anybody.Anything that you want to have happen?
What's the behavior that you wanted to reinforce, basically?Yeah.All right.Question for my next guest from David Allen.What most has your attention?Yeah, usually.
Usually what has your when you think about what has your attention when I say yeah, but yeah.But what really has your attention is often times people need to peel the onion back, you know, should I get married?Should I get divorced?Should I, Should we have kids?Should we give my daughter karate lessons?
You know, like what?What really has your attention?That's a great question.And then what do you do with it once you get to the answer is that again a question of going through a process like this saying, OK, what do I do about it?
It has my attention because it's obviously some, most of which is spending time on it.Can I resolve it?What's, what's the desired outcome?Sometimes that's clarity, sometimes it's resolution.Sometimes it's like we need to figure this out.That's your desired outcome is to have that figured out.
And then it's like, oh, OK, so what's your next action that you would need to take to figure that out?Now of course I'm absolutely itching to ask you what has your attention, but that's a cheat.I'm not allowed to ask a case question to themselves.David, that was magnificent.
Again, I encourage everybody to, to go through this stuff.I'm a big fan.It helps me.I, I have to confess my, my, where I fall flat with your process.And I because I've created all the lists.This is for my vet vault work, not for my clinical victory work is that reflects them.I forget to go back.
I go, OK, here's my maybe someday list and here's my project list and here's my daily To Do List.And then the stuff that ends up in the maybe someday list or the Longestan project list, that list does get neglected because I get because life happens and the day-to-day To Do List just gets filled with stuff and I I feel back.
Is it just a habit?Is it just a question of getting into the habit of saying on Sundays?Yeah, well, the reason most people avoid fully implementing this is that you're willing to tolerate the ambient anxiety.That's why I do this stuff like I just turned 79 so I don't get away.
I'm not doing this stuff.I have to do it as well as anybody else if I were to stay clear so.Do do you have a, a weakness?What's the hardest part of this process for you?You mean you've been doing it for so long?Are you an absolute master of this and it becomes very naturally, or do you have a sticking point that's still a struggle for you?
Well, you know, I fall off the wagon regularly.I just recognize when I'm off the wagon and I know how to eat my own dog food and I just go back and and do my own stuff.Anytime you sit you, you have a new vision or a new goal you're going to kind of unlook, you're going to need to rethink, recalibrate and refocus because we're all up to here.
We're all full up with plenty of stuff to do.So if you have a new thing to do, something's got to give and that means you're going to need to recalibrate, refocus or whatever.I have to do that as well as anybody else.Which is why I so appreciate you making time for us because I gave you an extra thing to do on your, what I'm sure is a very full To Do List.
And you very graciously agreed.And I, I think it was super useful.And I think our audience will find this really valuable.I know it's a big problem like we did this topic because many people said to me, I struggle with this and I think it's going to help.So thank you again for making the time, David.My pleasure here.
Before you disappear, I wanted to tell you about my weekly newsletter.I speak to so many interesting people and learn so many new things while making the clinical podcast, so I thought I'd grant a little summary each week of the stuff that stood out for me.We call it the Vet Vault 321 and it consists of three clinical pills.
These are three things that I've taken away from making the clinical podcast episodes.My light bulb moments.Two other things.These could be quotes, links, movies, books, a podcast highlight, maybe even from my own podcast.Anything that I've come across outside of clinical vetting that I think that you might find interesting.
And then one thing to think about, which is usually something that I'm pondering this week and that I'd like you to ponder with me.If you'd like to get these in your inbox each week, then follow the newsletter link in the show description wherever you're listening.It's free and I'd like to think it's useful.OK, we'll see you next time.

David Allen