Dec. 22, 2024

134: 5 Reasons Veterinary Teams Feel Undervalued—And How to Leverage ‘Zone of Genius’ to Change That. With Dr Natalie Fayman and Crystal Stokes

134: 5 Reasons Veterinary Teams Feel Undervalued—And How to Leverage ‘Zone of Genius’ to Change That. With Dr Natalie Fayman and Crystal Stokes

The podcast episode discusses the challenges and realities faced by veterinarians in their professional environments, focusing on toxic workplace cultures, undervalued employees, and the importance of team development. The speakers share personal experiences of dealing with unethical practices, disconnection from leadership, and the negative impact of profit-driven metrics on veterinary medicine. They emphasize that workplace dissatisfaction often stems not from overt hostility but from subtle signals of being ignored or undervalued. Solutions discussed include fostering communication, investing in team development, and creating pathways for employee growth. The conversation also explores how prioritizing team well-being leads to better financial and reputational outcomes for veterinary practices. Through case studies, the speakers highlight the repercussions of neglecting team dynamics, such as high turnover and reduced morale, and advocate for a proactive, people-centered approach to leadership in veterinary clinics.

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Season 1

Hands up if you feel truly valued and respected at work. 

In this episode, we dig deep into what truly makes employees feel valued and how leaders can create workplaces that people never want to leave. Spoiler: It’s not just about pay, pizza parties, or avoiding toxic behaviour. We’re aiming much higher! 

Why You Should Listen

Workplaces that crack the code of real team respect and value don’t just retain their talent — they thrive. Whether you’re a team leader or an employed vet, this episode is packed with actionable insights on creating meaningful change, improving communication, and unlocking your unique “zone of genius.”

What Team Leaders Will Learn

• How to spot and fix the subtle cues that make employees feel unheard and replaceable. 

•.The counter-intuitive financial upside of investing in team development.

“I think that organisations are sometimes coming in backwards, where it’s like: ‘Let’s just focus on the numbers and the metrics.’ If you develop amazing talent and build a strong team, you will make so much money. It is not the other way around.”

•.Practical tips to tackle team disengagement and avoid the high cost of turnover.

• Strategies for better communication and feedback without burning out as a leader.

“Because our brains are pre-programmed to attune to the negative, it’s going to be a negative story. So when people don’t understand what’s happening, they’re going to jump to the worst-case scenario, spread rumours, and act accordingly.”

What Employed Vets Will Learn

• How to advocate for yourself without feeling ‘pushy’ or ‘needy’.

• Why you might be feeling stuck in your role, and what to do about it. 

• How to discover and step into your ‘zone of genius.’

“If I can maximise my time and attention there, I will be of most use to my company, my team, myself, my patients — everybody.”

Our guests are:

• Dr. Natalie Fayman: A veterinarian with 30+ years of clinical experience turned certified Positive Intelligence coach, and champion for less workplace dread and more veterinary dream teams

• Crystal Stokes: A former ER vet tech turned licensed psychotherapist and leadership coach. As the founder of Full Circle Lab, she’s on a mission to bridge the gap between veterinary leadership and teams.

 

Say not to settling for a ‘meh’ workplace by hitting play on this episode  in to learn how to create (or find!) a role where you’re truly respected, valued, and thriving. Your veterinary dream team starts here!

 

Topics and Time Stamps:

06:23: Recognising the subtle things that make people feel undervalued

08:50: The counter-intuitive truth about investing time and money in team development

12:36: The repercussions of getting this wrong

18:13: Leveraging the team to get this right

21:25: Why it’s important to know the limits of your skills

25:23: Upcoming events and conferences

28:41: Pushing for change as someone who is not in a leadership role

35:05: Better systems for better feedback

37:32: Discovering your ‘zone of genius’

45:59: Addressing team disengagement

52:21: Effective communication and feedback

58:12: Podcast recommendations

58:52: The pass-along question

 

Lift your clinical game with our RACE approved clinical podcasts at ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://hi.switchy.io/podpage-vvn  for more clinical confidence and better patient outcomes, or check out our Advanced Surgery Podcast at ⁠⁠⁠cutabove.supercast.com⁠⁠⁠. 

Get case support from our team of specialists in our ⁠⁠⁠Specialist Support Space⁠⁠⁠.

⁠Subscribe to our weekly newsletter⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠for Hubert's favourite clinical and non-clinical learnings from the week.

Join me at the JAVECCS ECC conference in Tokyo on 15 and 16 March.

 

"How to Find Your ‘Zone of Genius’ and Excel in Your Career"

Finding your 'Zone of Genius' is crucial for career satisfaction and success. It involves identifying and leveraging your natural talents and skills to excel in your role. Here's how to uncover and harness your unique strengths:

  1. Self-Reflection and Feedback:

Introspection: Spend time reflecting on what activities you naturally gravitate towards. Consider the tasks that make you lose track of time because you are so engrossed in them. These are often indicators of your passions and areas where you excel.

Solicit Feedback: Ask trusted colleagues, friends, and family for their honest opinions on what they perceive as your strengths. They may offer insights you haven't considered. Observe who frequently seeks your help with specific tasks, as this can reveal your zone of genius3.

  1. Utilise Assessments and Tools:

Personality and Strength Assessments: Explore various assessments like StrengthsFinder or VIA assessment to gain a deeper understanding of your innate talents and areas where you naturally thrive. These tools can provide valuable insights to guide your career development.

  1. Observe Patterns and Embrace Challenges:

Notice Recurring Themes: Pay attention to tasks that consistently bring you a sense of accomplishment and fulfilment. These are often aligned with your natural abilities and can point you towards your zone of genius.

Don't Shy Away from New Experiences: Stepping outside your comfort zone and trying new things can help you discover hidden talents and expand your skillset. Embrace challenges as opportunities for growth and learning.

  1. Seek Mentorship and Guidance:

Connect with Mentors: Engage with experienced professionals in your field who can provide guidance and support as you explore your career path. Their insights can help you identify opportunities and navigate challenges.

  1. Communicate Your Strengths and Seek Opportunities:

Express Your Interests: Once you have a clearer understanding of your zone of genius, communicate your strengths and passions to your manager or team leader5. Actively seek opportunities to contribute in areas that align with your talents.

Propose Solutions and Initiatives: Demonstrate your skills and initiative by suggesting improvements to workflows or processes that fall within your zone of genius. This proactive approach can help you gain recognition and make a positive impact.

Remember that discovering and developing your zone of genius is an ongoing process. Continuously seek feedback, embrace challenges, and refine your skills. By leveraging your natural talents, you can not only excel in your current role, but also create a more fulfilling and impactful career journey.

 

5 Signs You’re in the Wrong Role—and How to Fix It

5 Signs You're in the Wrong Role

  • You feel undervalued and unappreciated.

You do not see a path for advancement and feel stuck in a rut where each day feels the same. Your workflow is dysfunctional but you have no authority to change it and your suggestions fall on deaf ears. This might even lead to being fired for having too much influence, as in Natalie’s case.

  • Your values do not align with the company’s.

You may pride yourself on integrity, but the company prioritizes profits over patient care and encourages practices you are not comfortable with.

  • You feel disconnected from your boss and team.

You feel like you are being ignored, your voice is not being heard and there is no trust or psychological safety within the team.

  • You are not using your zone of genius.

Your talents and skills are not being utilised, and you are not being given opportunities to grow and develop. Instead, you are expected to perform without investment from the company, and treated as a cog in a wheel. You may be asked to do tasks you do not enjoy or that take up too much time and energy.

  • You are experiencing burnout and disengagement.

You have lost your motivation and passion for the work, and are starting to wonder why you are still there. You may be quiet quitting or considering leaving the organisation altogether [14].

How to Fix It

  • Speak up and share your concerns.

Do not let resentment fester and wait until you are at the point of exploding. Write down your thoughts in a calm manner, outlining the challenges, the impacts, and possible solutions. Then, schedule a meeting with your manager to discuss your ideas and be receptive to their feedback.

 

 

  • Seek mentorship and support.

Talk to trusted colleagues, friends, or family members about your feelings, and seek advice from a career counsellor or therapist. This will give you a safe space to process your emotions and receive guidance. Consider investing in leadership training programs like those offered by Full Circle Lab to enhance your skills and discover your unique brand of leadership.

  • Remember why you chose this career path.

Reconnect with your passion for veterinary science and try to find ways to reignite the spark. Seek opportunities to engage in activities that bring you joy and purpose, whether it’s volunteering, mentoring, or pursuing a new area of interest.

  • Do not be afraid to ask for help.

Recognise that you cannot do everything yourself and that it is okay to seek outside help from experts in specific areas. Delegate tasks that are not in your zone of genius and trust others to do them well.

  • Invest in your team.

Create a culture of psychological safety, trust, and open communication where people feel comfortable sharing their ideas and concerns. Regularly solicit feedback from your team and address issues promptly. Provide opportunities for growth and development, and recognize and appreciate your team’s contributions.

Remember, being in the wrong role can have a significant impact on your well-being, both personally and professionally. By recognizing the signs and taking proactive steps to address the underlying issues, you can create a more fulfilling and meaningful career for yourself.

Hands up if you feel truly valued and respected at work, and I don't mean just being paid fairly or not being bullied.That's sort of the minimum expected standard.Let me rephrase that question.On a scale of one to 10, how excited are you to go to work each morning?
10 being you skip out the door under a rainbow whistling.Or on a scale of one to 10, how stuck do you feel in your Virginia career?At 10, you're on the hamster wheel, but you have super glue on your little paws and your hamster wheel is sinking in quicksand.
What you learn in this episode is that in teams that know how to show their team members that they are truly valued and respected.And spoiler alert, we're not talking about pizza parties, there is a lot less hamster.Wheel and a lot more.I'm Hubert Hemstrom and you are listening to The Wet Vault, where we acknowledge the quicksand but aim for rainbows in your venturing career.
And in this episode, we are talking about how subtle, usually inadvertent lack of appreciation in a team can lead to disengagement, quitting, or even worse, quiet quitting, and what you can do about it as a team leader or as a team member.Our guest for this episode are Doctor Natalie Feyman, who is a veteran of the veteran profession with more than three decades in clinical practice, turned certified positive intelligence coach and champion for less workplace dread and more veterinary dream teams.
Our other guest is Crystal Stokes, who is a former ER veterinary technician, licensed psychotherapist, leadership performance coach, and founder and Managing director of Full Circle Lab, which is a coaching and consultancy service for the vet profession that aims to bridge the gap between veterinary leadership and their teams.
And in this conversation, Crystal and Natalie will help you feel less stuck as an employee by figuring out your zone of genius.Show you how those not in leadership positions can push for positive change without being pushy or needy.And for our leaders, they will help you identify those less obvious things that make team members feel underappreciated and help you avoid these things without feeling or more do they want from you.
Because of course you care about your team and you really value the work they do.You might just need a little bit of help with finding ways to show it.And this is where you'll get it.Doctor Natalie Feyman and Crystal Stokes, thank you so much for joining us on the Vet Valve.
We'll jump straight in with something that came up in our e-mail thread where you guys talked about you work towards helping team leaders make their team members feel valued and respected, which is obviously essential.But I'd love to know from your perspective what the opposite looks like.
Because it's there's the one end of the scale of not being valued and respected that unfortunately some people are familiar with where you have the the horrible boss who throws a scalpel at your head in surgery because you're not working.Which true story.I've seen that happen unfortunately, and that's clearly not being valued and respected.
But I feel like there's a grey zone where it's not that obvious, where maybe as, as an employer listening to this, you'll go, yeah, I, I sometimes don't feel valued and respected, but I get paid and nobody shouts at me and nobody believes me.So maybe I'm just being fussy, you know, I'm being, I'm being needy.
Do either of you have a a story from your work experience as a tech or as a vet where in retrospect you feel like I actually wasn't appropriately valued and respected in that role?So I've been a veterinarian for like 30-4 years now and for the 1st 22 or 24 of those years I had nothing but bad bosses and toxic work environments and I just kind of thought that was normal.
And so it there's a whole spectrum from being like overtly abusive to just subtle little underpinnings of messages that told me that I could be replaced at any moment.I've worked for bosses that pretty much just expected 6080, sometimes even 90 hour work weeks.
And that was just part of the job and you were expected to say yes anytime somebody needed a shift picked up, no matter how exhausted you were, no matter what your personal plans were.For a while I worked at a facility that it was an after hour emergency clinic, but we had a pretty decent reputation as far as being really care oriented.
We, you know, we weren't, we weren't price gouging.We were very attuned to making sure that we took good care of the patient, but also took good care of the client emotionally and financially.I worked there for like 8 years out of the blue, I showed up to work one day and there was new owners there and I was like, wait, what?
And.What as in the practice that sold to brand new?Sold peace out.Never a word.Just here's your new dad and bye.And I was like, Oh my God, what just happened?And so the new owners were very, they were very upfront about the way that I was going to be evaluated as a doctor was by my average per client transaction.
And that was the only parameter.And so the bigger my bills were, the better of a doctor I was.And that was a big problem for me because I, I pride myself on integrity.I'm not going to recommend something to a client if it's not necessary, if it's not going to provide a benefit to diagnosing and moving the case along.
However, some of the other doctors didn't feel that way.There was one in particular.And me being the naive idiot that I was, I reached out to the owner of the clinic because, you know, he's the owner.This is his reputation.And I said, hey, you may want to know that this is going on.This doctor's doing these unnecessary procedures.
His response to me was, you're just jealous he's a better doctor than you are.And that really sent me the message that I only existed to generate money by any means necessary.And there was no professional integrity.There was no consideration to, is this the right treatment plan for the pet, for the client, Lie, cheat, steal, get the money in.
That's how that place was going to operate from that day forward.And a short time after that I was actually terminated from that position, allegedly because I had more influence over the staff than the owner did.Yeah, Like Natalie's example, I think it's, it's quite extreme.
I think having that side of the spectrum of showing what it feels like to be extremely undervalued in a way that's very overt.I think what you were also speaking to is that that Gray middle zone, it's not as obvious.And I've been fortunate not to really be on the receiving end of that, but I've observed a lot of it.I think the work that we do with Full Circle is to come in and, and help identify the more subtle, sneaky ways that people are feeling unheard, unseen, unvalued and unappreciated.
It's little things like not having a a pathway for advancement, not having the leadership really understand what their goals or talents or skills are, their vision for what they would like to do in veterinary medicine or their career.How that fits in the bigger picture of their life with family and their own health and, and personal goals.
And just like actually knowing your team members and showing them that you're listening and caring, I think that's just sometimes you feel too busy for that.And that that the softer touch really goes a long way with helping someone feel valued and appreciated and cared for within the workplace.I think larger organizations struggle with it the most because they have so many people to manage and they try to systemize things and apply a cookie cutter approach like a pizza party once a month reach hospital and people do not appreciate that.
They don't feel appreciated by it.This is why I asked the question because Crystal, you say Natalie's example is is on the extreme end.And it's sad that I go is it really could start that uncommon, but maybe not the the last bit of actually being fired for, you know, most people want strong leaders within their team to guide and mentor the rest that that seems really petty and childish and stupid.
But the stuff before that I was of saying, yeah, this is a business and your job is to show up and fix animals and charge for it and make money.And that is realistically that's what people get measured by.Your measure of value in this clinic is dollars.
I think you can generate a reasonable income and do it with a conscience and do it appropriately by practicing good quality medicine.But I mean, to be honest with you, most of the people that I talked to, they're not really complaining about their bosses being bullies.They're more complaining about the boss being disconnected and feeling like they are being ignored, like they don't have a voice.
And when people feel like their voice is not being heard, that kind of makes them lose their motivation and their passion.And they kind of start to wonder, like, why do I keep getting out of bed and going back there every day?Yeah, I think to the earlier point of as a business owner, and I'm a business owner myself, the numbers are really, really important and we do need to make money.
However, if you look at some of the greatest teams, some I think about how I lived in Silicon Valley.So you have Google and Facebook and these amazing companies and be able to see how they run.If you develop amazing talent and if you build a strong team, you will make so much money.
It is not the other way around.And I think that organizations are sometimes coming in backwards where it's like, let's just focus on the numbers and the metrics and you just shove people through like their cogs on a wheel and expect them to perform without investing and developing the team and bringing in really great talent, teaching them to work well together.
I am a firm believer and it's not a chicken and egg problem.It is a this comes before that.There's I don't, I don't, I think there's a, for me a personal confusion of like metrics first or build a strong team first.I think the team is what creates great metrics.And it's tempting as a business owner to go the other way for it's a completely natural.
Yeah, I, I know I always go, well, I want to make the money first so that I can then pay and invest and build the team and create the team and pay for education and all the extra stuff to go, well, make me the money and then we'll pay it.And it's a feels like a little bit of a leap of faith to go, well, let's do it the other way around.
I'll invest in my team and hopefully the money comes.But you say from your experience, it does come invest in your team and the business goes better, right?I.Do, and I think you want to plan for that.I think it is faulty planning.It's so you're taking on a business loan to start a, a, a veterinary clinic in town.
And so you know, you have a certain number of costs for the build out, for hiring of your team, for getting the infrastructure solid.That loan should include what it's going to take to nurture and grow for your team.It should just be built into the business model, not an afterthought.And I also think that you can do it reasonably inexpensively.
I think some of this is actually more about time than money.Like taking care of your team, I think is about as a leader really being thoughtful about how you use the hours in a day.Making sure that you have a strategy for not only getting the back end part of your operations done, your administrative work, but also where's your time for taking care of your team, connecting with them, understanding them, developing them.
If you're not good at it, then who do you hire in your organization that is good at it?Because leadership got way too busy, they're in over their head and or they might not really enjoy the people aspect of work as much.Maybe they enjoy business, they enjoy animals and medicine.They don't necessarily like working with humans in that capacity.
That's perfectly understandable.We love working with humans in that capacity.So that's another option is just if it's not your skill set, then you can hire for that.But I think that needs to be really thought about.My impression is that sometimes it's an afterthought and that's a mistake.Yeah, I feel like the team is the operating system and your software is going to run like crap if your operating system isn't optimized before the volume starts to hit you.
So it's the foundation of your house.Yeah, I like.That it brings to mind.I don't know if you're familiar with.I always talk about it.I love his stuff.Seth Godin, the author slash marketer.One of his blog posts talked about the game of Jenga.
Many businesses operate like a game of Django where they go, well, we need to increase profit, but by using the same tools that we have and you start pulling blocks at the bottom to put on top and you start pulling it out at the bottom and eventually the tower falls over because you're not building that foundation.So my understanding from what we've discussed so far is there's two repercussions.
There's one to the business.It's almost counter intuitively not investing time and and resources into developing this aspect of the team as negative financial repercussions potentially for the business, financial reputational staff retention, which is obviously a huge thing.
And you touched on it, Natalie, team member, Wellness, engagement, happiness, satisfaction.Like what does it feel like most of my listeners or many of our our listeners here are, are not the leaders in the team.They're on the receiving end of this.And yes, I might not have a boss who shouts at me and calls me names or fires me for being too influential.
This is ridiculous.But yeah, what does it look like if this isn't done well as an employee for somebody listening to this thinking, yeah, I feel like I'm maybe that's me.I'll give you a great some examples.So I'll tell a couple stories of how the way we usually enter into a practice, the most standard way, we have multiple ways, but the most common is that a clinic will reach out and say team members are leaving.
They're having trouble with a recruit.They don't stick.They they're just turning over a lot of team members, which is burning through money and they're not able to be as productive as they should be.They're having to go on diversions, they're having to close down, they're having to, you know, decrease their workload because they just can't see that many patients.
So usually we'll reach out about that point like the house is on fire and then I will request any data they can send.So turnover data, exit interview data.I'm trying to read through all the data and get an idea of like what have the trends been over the last few years?What are we seeing?Then I'll come in and do you conduct confidential interviews with select team members to try to just get a feel for what's really happening?
I think that's where the most interesting part like to this story, what you just asked kind of comes through when people can sit down with someone who is a confidential safe space person than to talk to.Somebody who can't fire them, basically.Exactly, yes.I can't fire them.
There's no no repercussions.My background is I'm trained as a psychotherapist, so I think I can create a presence that that lets you feel really safe and opening up.And the questions that I ask are based on the data that I've read.So I narrow the questions down kind of getting a feel for where I think the hot spots are within the company.
And then I will often ask what solutions would they want to bring?Like if you had the magic wand and you were empowered to use it and you could create change in your organization, what would you want to see done?What would you do if you were involved?That's where you see people light up.So they go from being apathetic kind of shut down.
I, I don't even think it's possible.We should just give up.Like kind of a really low morale or a fearful morale.Feel like I'm afraid to speak up.Something bad might happen to feeling like there's a possible future.There's something I could contribute their ideas that people want to hear.
My voice is actually important.And just that step seems to open people up.But what I hear a lot of in those interviews of what is it like to feel undervalued?The common themes are I don't see a pathway forward.I feel like I'm stuck right here and there's nowhere else for me to go.
My life is Groundhog Day over and over and over is 1.The second one, and this is no particular order.The second one is the day-to-day is dysfunctional.Like we're not optimizing our workflow or the teamings we have are really unproductive where there's just something that the the day-to-day workflow doesn't feel right.
But I have no authority to change it.I just have to sit there and tolerate it.I have no no power, no voice at all.I think a third one that's extremely common is I don't have any way to communicate with leadership or when I do message them, nothing happens.
It goes into the void.And that one is extremely disheartening.Even if they're brave enough to speak up and it wasn't received well, why try again?So those are the three most common ones that I hear.I think that employers expect me to come back with you're not paying them enough.
That is often not one of the top pain points.The money is not the thing that really moves the needle on people being engaged or wanting to stay in your company.It's foundational.You have to pay them enough to meet their cost of living.That is fundamental.But above that, getting bonuses and all these, the monetary rewards aren't top of mind for most people during these interviews, which is interesting.
Yes, I felt those things and seen them in colleagues.Yeah, people are so much more willing to contribute to a solution when they have been part of creating.So just being asked for their input and asked for their opinion, that's huge.
I mean, a lot of people have never experienced that.And when they feel safe to be able to express their concerns and even if their advice isn't taken, just be having been heard by someone in a position of authority is so validating.
That feeling of being appreciated and trusted and listened to.It should be a basic like a common human experience, but it is actually something that most people never really get to know what that's like in the workplace.And as soon as they realize that they're not being listened to, that their opinion doesn't matter, that's when that disengagement starts.
And the disengagement eventually leads to why am I even here?I'm going to go look somewhere else.Right.They're either quiet quitting by staying in the organization and doing the bare minimum, or they're leaving the organization altogether.Yeah.And it's so common and I feel like that the cycle perpetrates because what happens is people feel powerless.
They go, I have ideas of how to do this better, I'm sure I can do this better.And then eventually they'll often, often times people will start their own businesses going, I'm going to do this better.And they do it better because it's just there without a big team.And then five years in, they have a team and then they're overwhelmed and they've got too many things and client complaints and finances and blah, blah, blah, blah.
So they do exactly the same thing.They go, yeah, I'm going to be great.And then the reality hits because again, I, when we talk about these leadership things on the podcast, I'm always very mindful that there are some team leaders who listen to this and they'll contact me afterwards and say, hey, you're beating up on us.So this is freaking hard.
I do care, I really do care.It's just hard to do it.Exactly.I mean, I'll, I'm one of you.So I, I am the leader of my company.Natalie can speak to that.And I know the pressure of that.And that's why within Full Circle Lab, we have a leadership development program specifically because our belief in what we've seen over time is that leadership really is one of the most important parts of, of the organization.
We can spend tons of time coaching the team and trying to make them feel good.It's a waste of time if we don't have leadership's involvement.So a lot of that development of leaders is but I, but I say in bet Med all the time is that when veterinarians shift from being a clinician to ownership, it's a whole new world.
Like how to manage people, how the HR components of this finance, all of it.When we come in and, and provide this kind of development, I like to remind them that you've already proven that you're an excellent learner.You can learn anything.If you've learned veterinary medicine, you can learn anything.
So we're just going to teach you another, you know, box of skill sets and ways to look at your operation and your people.And, and it's amazing when they frame it that way and I can learn anything.I think that it helps leaders feel like this is not so scary.You've learned way harder things.It's just you haven't been given the opportunity.
That's cool.You're drinking from the fire hose.You didn't have time to learn these skills.Most of us going to veterinary medicine because we really like animals and we're not like really thrilled about working with people necessarily.I was one of those people, so was Natalie.And and to think that now working with people is my favorite thing ever, hands down.
Humans are my favorite species.It took becoming a therapist and learning how humans think to finally feel comfortable enough, right?Like, that's a lot of work.I don't want the veterinary owners to have to go through that much schooling to feel confident, comfortable.Managing other humans, but I do want to speak to how hard it is like humans are complicated.
We hide our emotions.We we have our own difficult past that we project on to what's happening in in our companies that may not be accurate.So that's enough stuff that feels mysterious I think for leaders of like, I can't read their damn mind.Everybody's so different.I need a system for this and it takes a lot of time to have these conversations that I don't have.
So yes, it is hard, but there are proven evidence based ways to actually do this and find your unique brand of leadership that can help support your people.You don't have to be everything to everybody.I think that's part of why like on our team, like with Natalie for instance, the kind of coaching that she provides is very specific.
So I would like pair her with a certain kind of person because I know what she's really good at.Like her brand of leadership development and teaching and skill sets are perfect for people that need that certain thing.But we don't, we try not to generalize much.So I think that's also another challenge for leaders.It's just to know, like, where do I even start?
Because there's just so much out there to to learn.So we're not going to cover the how to in in a one hour podcast, are we?Our business owners are not going to walk away from this guy.OK, I've got this.I'm going to nail it.Now.I, I joke, but the more I do these interviews, because it's sort of the the reason I do it is I want to find resources and techniques for people to do their vet life in a better way or in a, in a happier way.
But I feel like when we talk about the business and the leadership side of it, if I'm learning one thing, it is stop thinking that you could do everything.And then it's also a bit of a vet trait, right?We are problem solvers.That's what we are trained to do.And mostly people are pretty intelligent.
You know, you don't get into vet by being stupid.So you think you could do everything and maybe you could learn it.Like probably you have the skills in the brains to learn these skills, but it's time and attention and you're probably going to have asset.And then you wonder, why am I?
Why?Why can't I find vets, or why they're leaving, or why is my team not operating the way I wanted to?So I think outside help is probably one of the key lessons I keep learning over and over again on this.It's so true.You know, I think discretion is one of the most important parts of being a leader and be able to stand back for a moment and reconnect the vision you have for why you're here, why are you doing this?
And then be very honest with ourselves about where we shine and where we kind of suck.And every person is like that, like strengths finders.The VIA assessment is one way to like learn what are my top strengths?So that should be really leveraging.Where do I know I'm very competent and capable?
And that is where my genius though lies.And if I can maximize my time and attention there, I will be of most use to my company, my team and myself.Patience, everybody.But then it leaves this whole other part of the pie chart that we're not good at.
I think that creates a lot of fear.Like that means I'm going to have to like trust somebody else with it, pay somebody else to do it.All of that can be quite anxiety producing, but it's absolutely necessary.I mean, Natalie, you've seen it in in Full Circle Lab where I had to recognize that marketing is not my genius zone.
I don't like it at all.I want to work with the people and my team and I'm good on the financial end too.There's certain things I'm good at, but not marketing.And so I bit the bullet and I brought in somebody that does marketing, you know, and I have to just trust her that she knows things.My daddy said this thing with me.I was a kid.He put pennies in my hand.
He's Eric.Chris, these pennies represent a minute of your life.And anything you decide to do, even sleeping or eating or whatever work you do, you give it a penny.And and as you give away the pennies, you can't put any back.When you run out, you're dead.
I mean, it's kind of dark for a dad to deal with his kid.I like.It.But it landed in my brain that every hour you have as a leader, you're never getting that hour back.You need to be very thoughtful about how you're using your time.Your time is one of your most valuable resources and it's non renewable.
You're not getting it back.So I think not falling with the trap of frenetic doing this just to do being on the treadmill of like reacting to everything, like reactive leadership.We see a lot of that or the turtle leadership and they go on their shell and they're like, I can't face another day.I just can't do it.
Hummingbird reactivity or the turtle shutting down is really detrimental.I think that helping leaders get their oxygen mask on, step back, be discerning and thoughtful about how to move forward, and then maintaining that structure.It's just critical for a leader to really be successful.
Yeah, I'm here talking about vet team leaders, but I I'm doing exactly the same stuff with the vet.Well, because that's my business and I'm the leader and I'm like, I can do it all.I can market that.Edit.The things that you're not good at, it doesn't mean that you can't do them.It just means that it takes a lot more of your mental focus, your energy, and your time.
And that is not the best use of your God-given zone of genius.If you really want to be effective and inspiring to the people around you, you want to spend as much time as possible doing the things that really light you up, the things that you're really good at that come easily to you.
And find other people whose zones of genius overlap the things that you're not good at, and let them feel what it's like to be able to blossom into that challenge.Quick interruption to tell you about some exciting things happening in 2025 for the Red Vault and how you can get involved #1 about 40 of you joined me in 2022 in Noosa for the 1st and early ever.
So far Red Vault live our own conference.Since then many people have asked me when we're doing another Bedford conference and the answer has always been it was great, but the fine detail admin of organising it was definitely not my thing.Let's just say that much of that stuff is not my zone of genius.
What is my zone of genius, though, is connecting with amazing speakers, coming up with a useful program and hosting it in a way that is engaging and fun.Professor David Church, one of our speakers at our 2022 event who must have given thousands of talks in his career, told me afterwards that it was the most engaged audience he's ever had because of the way that we structured.
It.So I'm taking Crystal's advice seriously and partnering with someone whose own of genius is organizing boutique conferences in amazing locations.I'm thrilled to announce that in August 2025 we will be hosting the first ever combined Vet Fault and Vets on Tour conference in Wanaka, New Zealand with my friend Doctor Dave Collins.
Dave's Vets on Tour destination conferences are world famous, some might say notorious.And in 2025, we are adding the Vet Fault Magic to the mix with Vets on Tour to host an epic snow conference in one of the most picturesque and fun destinations on the planet with what we're hoping will be some of the most useful continuing veterinary education on the planet.
We don't quite have our website and booking site ready to share, so I will hold off on the details, but for now, penciled in 10 to 15 August 2025 in your Diaries, but you'll leave in now.Start shopping on Marketplace for winter gear for the kids if you're going to bring them, or book the grandparents now for babysitting duties.
If you want us to give you first dibs on tickets once we release them, send me an e-mail at info@vivetvault.com and we will let you know when we're ready to roll.And then more conference fun.I've just confirmed that I will be going to Javix 2025, which is the Japanese Veterinary Emergency Critical Care Society conference in Tokyo on March 15 and 16 to do my thing there.
My thing being recording podcasts with the speakers to get their highlights and follow up questions for the talks.The speaker line up includes some of my favorite ECC speakers and also a bunch of brand new speakers that I am dying to hear and interview.And it's freaking Tokyo.
I've just checked and the cherry blossoms usually start opening around the 20th of March.So to me, the logical thing to do is come to the conference, spend 5 days afterwards exploring Japan, and then get back to Tokyo in time for the blossoms.Of course, everything I record at all of the conferences I attend goes into our clinical podcast streams where our subscribers get to listen to it at their leisure with show notes and our new AI search assistant to back it up.
You can check it out at VVN.That's VVN for wetvaultnetwork@supercast.com.That's vvn.supercast.com.OK, back to Crystal and Natalie.OK, I want to come back to Zone of Genius from a couple of perspectives.
I love that phrase.But before we go there, just to flip this around again, for people listening to this, who's they're not the practice owner or the leader or something, they feel these things and they're like, yes, yes, yes, yes.I feel really hurt by this conversation.What can I do about can you, The question is, can you do something about this within your practice?
Because there's lots of people that go.I actually work, works for me where I work now.I like my team, I like the location, everything, but I feel stuck.I feel undervalued.Can you push from the bottom to make this happen?I'm so excited that you asked this question.
I'm so glad.So I put myself in in the shoes of of a person like that and I've been there for sure.There's a natural fear if I am, if I speak, something's going to go wrong.I'm either going to get shut down or it's not going to land and they're going to think I'm just complaining.
There are many, many like barriers in our mind that make us not want to speak up.Those are all legitimate feelings, but moving through them is extremely important.You absolutely can and should speak up, but there is an art to it.So first I'm going to tell you what to not do.Do not reach out to your manager when you're feeling very reactive, like something just happened on the floor and you're thinking this was bullshit.
I can't believe this happened.I'm so sick of it.I'm calling a manager.I'm gonna tell her all the things that went wrong.Which is exactly typically when you finally decide to speak up, right?So that that angry e-mail after work.Yes.
So if you're feeling emotionally reactive, you want to wait until you can be in a calmer space.So find a way to get calm.One way is you can write an e-mail that you never send, right?You just get your thoughts down e-mail.So, but my next step would be collect all of your thoughts, put them down in writing, think through.
I like to do it like what are the challenges that we're facing and what are some of the impacts of those challenges?How is it hurting the team, the bottom line, the patients?You're building a case like, hey, I see these workflow issues.It's slowing us down.It's bogging us down.You know, some of the patients that come in ends up being really dysfunctional.
The client communication looks bad.You know, it's really not not not thoughtfully done.So it impacts and then you can provide some suggestions.Now this can be a challenging part because as you're writing suggestions up, you might not know a lot of behind the scenes things that leaders know.
That could be barriers, like they might have financial barriers to things that cost money because they have a build out plan.There might be timeline barriers.So keep in mind that you might need to have a lot of flexibility in the solutions that you're bringing.How long might it take?Are there team players that need to be involved in it?
Could I be the point person or would I just give the solution and hope somebody else can do it because that it's out of my skill set?I couldn't fix it.It's more medical director thing and also with an open mind to really present your ideas and also be receptive to their feedback.
So it's a real like nice beautiful feedback loop.So once you've written all your ideas down, the problem is the impacts, the solutions, then you want to reach out to your manager or team leader and ask to schedule a session and be clear about your intentions behind scheduling it so they don't feel blindsided.
Like you could say, hey, we had a really difficult situation on the floor recently.Can we schedule a meeting so I can share some ideas of how we might be able to do things better?I'd love to chat with you about it.And then ask for the duration of time you need 60 minutes, thirty minutes and get with them in person or as in person as you can on Zoom, something like that, and meet with them to share.
And the next part of this is where I think we often stumble.We hope that we can just do A1 and done meeting and all of our solutions will be taken in and everything will be beautiful and perfect after that, which is very rarely the case.We should view that conversation as only the first step in a long line of creating solutions together, collaborating, getting to know each other.
Like that's the genesis of something much bigger.So even if you're shot down a little bit in that conversation, it doesn't mean you have to give up.You might just, you need to go back to the drawing board and rethink like what feedback did you get from your manager?How are you going to try again?And lastly, I'll say when I have team members who say, you know, I brought this thing up to my manager that we need to do XYZ and they, they told me they're just busy right now.
And then, then they haven't gotten back to me.This is where you need to practice the woodpecker Peck.Just ping it to them again.Because with leadership, often you have this massive To Do List.And when something gets on the To Do List here at the top of the list in about 16 minutes, it's now at the bottom of the To Do List because they have so much volume coming in.
So if your leader is forgetting to respond to you, it's not always because they don't and they're intentionally ignoring you.It could just be a volume issue.So if you're the annoying woodpecker that pops your initiative to the top of the list over and over and over, you're more likely to get some attention A. 100% I think it's such a valuable lesson because people are you don't want to be rude and use well, there's a there's a saying.
Don't assume malice when ignorance will suffice.Don't assume malice when just being busy will suffice as an excuse because you assume people assume that they're not getting back to me.They don't respect me.No, they're just really overwhelmed.And probably that's one of the most valuable lessons I've learned by doing the podcast, specifically the, the clinical component where I, I buy that specialists for a living to get a little a slice of their time.
And I, I've learned that until somebody tells me to piss off, I'm not going to do it.I'm going to keep asking because I assume that you're just busy and you just haven't had a chance.So, and eventually they will go, oh, I'm so sorry.All they'll say, look, I really don't have the mental capacity for this right now.That's a firm no, But until you tell me a firm no, it's just you haven't had time to listen to me.
If you are a team member trying to bring a problem to the attention of your manager, supervisor, whoever that person is, I find it really helpful to frame it in terms of what do they get out of it?What is the problem that this is going to solve for them?
I know it's going to, I need to solve my problem because we, you know, we dropped the ball.It was too busy.We didn't have enough people.I'm focused on me, me, me.This is my problem.This is terrible.We can't let this happen again.But what problem am I going to solve for the person who I want to get the attention from?
They're going to be much more receptive because they're getting the message that you are looking out for them and you want to contribute to being part of the solution.I've got 2 comments to add.The 1 is a quick shout out to where I work now, where I do my clinical shifts at Animal Emergency Australia.
Our director has it because because the.I found through the years that often the practical problem is when do I get a chance to speak to Crystal?Crystal, my boss and I, I know you're really busy when we're on the floor together, it's all go, go, go.And there's not time to chat about many managerial issues.
And I know you get 1000 emails.So Danny, who's my director, she has a scheduled block on a every week between this and this time.It's I forget which day, let's say Thursday's with Danny and she's on Zoom.She's there at her desk and you can just pop on.You can just there's a code and you can go, all right, Danny, I've got an issue.
Let's talk about this, which I think is really cool.So shout out for that.The other thing that I'm reading a book at the moment where and I'm sure you'd be familiar with the philosophy of is it Kai Zen that Toyota, That's what Toyota says successful where there's a philosophy of constant improvement and there's an expectation of every single employee at Toyota to contribute to bring an idea.
It's part of your job.You, yes, you work on the floor to put bolts in the Toyota engine or whatever, but also part of your job is you have to make suggestions constantly, little suggestions to make things a little bit better.And then to implement that.They have feedback coaches almost.
So I don't necessarily go to the boss, I go to the person.There's a person whose job it is to listen to feedback and they have an understanding of the, because you talk about them.Maybe there's not money for this or there's a reason why we can't implement your idea immediately and it's not actually the boss's job to give that feedback.
There's a person, I go to that person and say I have this idea.I think we should move this shelf a little bit higher because my back hurts when I pick up the screw from the thing.And the coach will then say, well, here's your stumbling blocks.Let's workshop your idea.And it's not going to work in this form.
But what else?Can we basically just coach you through it to Polish your idea to make it an acceptable idea to get a compromise that's going to work, which I thought was awesome.Look, this theater, they're a massive company.The average small veteran can't afford to pay somebody just to do that.But maybe having a, a leadership role that incorporates that to say, yes, I'm the feedback guy.
Talk to me and I can explain to you why it can and can't work this.Smart.That's great.Great example.All right, zone of genius.So we talked about zone of genius in terms of the leaders where you can't wear all the hats and outsource it.But what about the employees?
Because we want to like it's part of this finding the zone of genius for each of your team members.That's not just expressing anal glands and and putting an IV cat.That is what, what sort of genius are we looking at?What are the things that are useful in a vet clinic that people shine at that they might not even think about at this point?
How can I contribute to my vet business?That's not clinical work.OK, so I'll share a few.There are many different ways to assess this.Sometimes you just intuitively know that's one.It's like, I know I'm more of a people person or I know I'm really good with details.But there are also a variety of like fun assessments that that can be done.
And we have a whole smorgasbord of things that people can pick from if they like to actually be assessed.So I think that there are a variety of of, of fun ways to discover in other ways, just asking for feedback from your team members, like, hey, what do you think I'm really good at?And they'll tell you and you can notice that with your team members, give them feedback.
So that's the first part is just like, how do you discover your zone of genius?You can test, you can solicit feedback, you can also be introspective and just ask yourself, what are you drawn to you?What do you like?What do you love?What do you feel competent at?But within a clinic, some of the things that I see that I look for when I'm on site watching people who are the people that are just natural people, persons, you know, they enjoy the interactions with team members and with clients.
And that's such goal with an organization because they can help smooth things over and they can help create better workflow and communication flow.They can de escalate conflicts the the communicators of the team like that's that's a huge genius zone.Another one is people who are just wonderful with creating structure.
They can see how to organize a training manual.They can see how to organize a team meeting.They can organize your inventory.They are detail oriented.Their brain works in spreadsheets.You know, they love to make spreadsheets.Natalie and I are laughing.So we're we're of that ilk.
And I'll pause there because I think, Natalie, you might have some additional ways of how do you look for zones of genius within the the veterinary hospital?The thing that really came to my mind as you started talking about that is that when somebody asks me what my zone of genius is, I draw blank because I'm so used to downplaying my talent and the things that I'm good at.
And I think a lot of people are like that.But the thing that I do is I watch to see who goes to ask this person for help with like specific tasks.What people come to you for help for is the genius that they see in you.
And so whether that's hey, you know, I'm, I'm having a hard time getting this point across to a client or hey, can you show me how to do this procedure?When people ask you repeatedly for help and advice, it's because that is your zone of genius.Oh, that's a good one.
And I think that for people that have been in an organization longer, people have had time to observe them and kind of get comfortable.Like she hits that vein every time we blown to go get her, she'll get it in like, you know, there's that go to person.But for those that are newer that might be listening to this, you need not been with an organization that long and you're not sure about that, Then I think it's, you know, defaulting to asking yourself what are you drawn to?
You know, what are the things that interests you?So we tend to have like part of us is just afraid, we feel fear as we move away from things.Another part of that feels attraction we want to move towards.So just noticing that kind of intuitive feeling of what are you drawn towards and just kind of organically following that for a little while and seeing where that takes you.
If you're newer and you're not sure yet what you're good at and what people might come to you for, it might just be that you haven't had enough time yet to find out and.Like you were saying before, we're like with people that just love creating structure and systems.Like I could literally sit for hours and figure out a process for something.
If you lose track of time when you're doing something because you're so into it, that's one of your zones of genius.I'm going to underline what you said before, Natalie, but underplaying what potentially is a skill that you have, But sometimes it's not even under playing.
It's not recognizing that it's a skill.And and I feel like it's because you're good at it.You feel that it's so easy that you don't think it's a skill.Exactly.It's very easy to make spreadsheet because I had this conversation with a with an old school friend of mine the other day.
We talked about budgeting and stuff.He's a finance man, He's a he's a numbers man and I'm not I'm the opposite.I terrible at it and he was telling me that he built this program to track his finances and all sorts and and I said to him, that's amazing.
That's not just doesn't everybody do that?I said to what you're just describing is my worst nightmare.I cannot, it would take me days of emotional turmoil.It's very, very hard for me.And I've had the flip side things where people go, are you really good at that?And where you go, everybody is, it's really easy.
It's not it, but I, I think it's maybe to help you recognize the stuff that you find really easy.Maybe you find it easy because you're just naturally gifted and that is your zone of genius.That's exactly it.We so tend to downplay our own gifts because, I don't know, I'm speaking strictly for myself.
I came up as a people pleaser, and so I'm always putting everyone else on a pedestal above me and making sure everybody else has what they need before I get what I need.And I think there's this automatic assumption that if I can do something, it doesn't have value because it's just average.Yeah, yeah, that's exactly it.
I look at the amazing things that other people do and I I can't see that in myself until someone else tells me.Can I speak though, to kind of the opposite side of that that I see?Because I do think the majority of people listening to your podcast will probably really relate to what Natalie just said.But there's also proportion of people that I think maybe have a, a very high degree of confidence and feel like they are really good at certain things.
And so they can be a bit of a bull in a China shop within an organization like Natural Alpha, Type A leaders.They're like a leader from the front.They've been the captain of teams, you know, they, they've gotten the trophies, they've had gold stars and they want to just jump in and that's great too.
I, I love that kind of energy, like a wild Mustang horse that's like, I'm going to get in here and get it done, move out of my way.I got it.So if you're one of those types, one, thank you for all of your energy and your efforts.Awesome.But #2 it's about harnessing that energy, right?
So something a bucking Bronco that's like knocking everything over a bull in a China shot, breaking everything.One of like you can use discretion and harness it and and think about the effect it has on the whole team.Because sometimes you have a really strong team player, it doesn't let the rest of the team grow the skills.
Like if I always jump in and put that catheter in, nobody else is learning.So if I'm sick that day, animals are going to suffer because they're going to blown veins, right?So often times I like to take people that have that really high energy and high confidence and help them become teachers, slowing it down and thinking, how do you take all this in your head that you know how to do or kinesthetically, you know how to do and put into an SOP, put into a process and and see, are you an effective teacher?
Can you train other people on it and do so in a way that lands for different learning styles because you have people that learn in different ways.And I think that's a nice way to harness that kind of energy for those who might be kind of stepping back.Like I'm a little bit intimidated.I don't really, I'd rather just hide, you know, the shadows a bit.
And and this is overwhelming me.Or find somebody who could put it in ASAP.Somebody who's good at that.It's probably not them.I think it also helps to have, if you're like one of those super full, like charge full speed ahead controller type leaders that can really intimidate some people that may have a little bit less confidence or be less outspoken.
They may have the skills, they may have the knowledge, but they're just intimidated by the intensity of that person's personality.And that's a real disservice sometimes because people tend to shut down and withdraw in those types of situations where they feel inferior just by force of personality and they never get to shine.
It's like Crystal was saying, so I, I think it's great to, you know, accept we have all different personality types.Everyone has their style, but it's also good to just kind of have a talk about that and say, you know, who who is is maybe not feeling heard, who has something that they feel like they have to offer that's not being recognized.
And how can we just learn to bring that out of each other more effectively?I like to play devil's advocate or try and think of stumbling blocks that people I would have with this.So from a leader's perspective, what I hear very often is really to say, yeah, I try with this.
I have a vision.I want people on board.I want them to do this, but they're just not engaged.Like I can't get my team to put up their hand.If I talk about let's find his owner genius, let's plan a session.Here's a form to fill out of something.People are like I just want to, I don't want to show up, do my vet work and go home.
Don't bother me with all this other stuff.Is that something that do you face with your work?That's why we're brought in often times.Absolutely.And usually that's that type of disengagement.It didn't happen overnight.We didn't just flip a light switch and they became that way, right?
That takes time to get to that place and it takes time to reverse out of that place.So when I see that, so I often will join in on team meetings when I'm initially brought into a company, they'll say, hey, will you join in on the the whole hospital meeting or the ship fleet meeting or the Onco Onco meeting?
I'll jump in.And so when I see that there's a lot of disengagement, I really just try to get very curious.I'll sometimes I'll even interrupt a meeting like, hey, I know we have an agenda here, David, can we just pause for a minute?What's going on, guys?Just nobody seems to want to talk.Yeah.
And so very, very common is a lack of what we call psychological safety.So an organization psychological safety.It's also a way somebody used the word trust.Like, do you feel trust with your team?Do you feel like you could make a mistake and admit it?I just sent the animal home with the wrong medication.
And that it would be received by your team in a way that is solutions oriented.We're going to figure out how to fix it rather than persecuting and blaming you and making you feel like you should never brought it up in the 1st place.Do you feel like you can play devil's advocate like you just did?And it's welcome that we can have different perspectives and different views and we can all be a different color of the rainbow, and that's fine.
Like you want a team where you can have healthy debate, you can make mistakes and learn from them, you can give each other critical feedback.And it's received in many organizations.Something has happened along the way that eroded that sense of safety and trust.Often top down really heavy leadership where the top just like we make rules and that's what's going to happen.
People are like, well, I'm going to go on my show now.Like that's that's often A cause for that kind of apathetic, disengaged group is that leadership comes with a bunch of ideas and then puts them on to the team.The team is just suspected to carry them out.
Now I know we can't always do a bottom up organization either.There are many pitfalls to leading a team that way.It can be very inefficient, but I think they can meet in the middle where I would say top down meets bottom up.You want to enlist people and 1st just discussing the problems.
Like, people love to talk about what sucks, what's not going well, what sucks about this actual meeting right now.I hate this time of day.I'm hungry.You all bring pizza every time.I'm sick and tired of pizza.Every time we have this meeting, it goes overtime.We never stick to the agenda, and Barbara's always dominating the show.
That's what I hate about this meeting and I don't want to say anything.And it's the same way every week, so screw it.I love this person right now for just sharing all of that because those are good points to know.Are they all valid?I don't know, but at least somebody's speaking up once we have complaints out on the table.
You can do this with sticky notes like eat a board and people can put anonymous sticky notes up of everything that's not working and they put them up there.Great.What is working?Well, I like that you all bring coffee to this meeting.Who doesn't like coffee?Cool.And somebody else says, well, I actually like this time of day.
It's perfect for me.OK, sticky board of that like what are all the things that are working in this meeting?And then you can start working towards now what?What are some solutions to all the things that suck?That's a great way to break out a disengagement.If a team is not engaged, don't try to force engagement.
Like, come on, damn it, be engaged.No, back down and become curious about why does this feel so yucky?And don't pretend like you know the answers because you probably don't.You want to hear it from their mouth.Don't try to read their mind and make up assumptions.And then solve the problem that you don't know is actually a problem.
Talk to people.Sometimes it's also just a matter of like burnout that people are exhausted, they're taxed.You've been short staffed for a really long time.We're still kind of coming out of that COVID fog from everybody.So that might just be more tender hearted of how are y'all feeling?And, and what do we need really to feel like humans again in this work, to feel like we're reconnected with our work and each other?
Like, what do we want to do whenever like one group they did like laser tag, like they just want to do something fun or they want to do an outing that's out of the clinic.We just want some time to like be people and not workers.So I think it's more tender hearted, soft and curious.When you see disengagement, there's no cookie cutter why it's happening to your company.
You need to investigate with your team and treat it like you're trying to diagnose that within your team and really hear what they have to say and don't discount it right away.Sometimes it's easy to be like Nah that's whatever just cause of time of day.That's silly but but try to really hear it and put yourself in their.
Shoes.Yeah, I agree.I feel like disengagement is a symptom of the actual problem.And trying to force better engagement is actually just going to make the underlying problem worse.The, the most common feedback that I get from people who have told me that they stopped caring X, you know, amount of time ago is that they've offered solutions to the problems that they perceive and they've been ignored.
Or there's all kinds of talk and all kinds of promises and then nothing ever changes.And so it really boils down to why should I care if the boss doesn't?And whether that's true or not, that's their perception.And so that's the reality for them.
And telling somebody that you shouldn't feel that way, it actually just, it alienates them even more.So making sure that everybody has that environment of psychological safety where they feel heard, they feel valued, whether their advice is taken or not, just knowing that they have a voice and that people take them seriously is huge.
And I think that's really pivotal to maintaining engagement.You know, and I can add one more thing that Natalie kind of reminded me of is as leaders, we often feel I need to just make a decision, right?Like I need to change this PTO policy.I, I don't have time to like investigate how everybody feels about it.
Like we need to move on this.Even if you know the decision you have to make, you know the outcome, you can still solicit feedback with a quick e-mail survey.Hey guys, just sending this out but to make some updates to our PTO policy I have like 5 different questions I wanted to ask.
On a scale of one to five, how do you feel about XYZ?That way they feel included and you have some understanding of how they're going to react when you drop this new information.Even if you couldn't change the outcome of what that policy change might be, you at least know how they're feeling about it and you can do some damage control.
Like oh man, based on the survey they are not going to like the changes to this PTO policy.How can I get ahead of that?What are some things I can do following this new information?What are the plans for the next 6 to 12 months of having my deal with the fallout of it?Like getting their feedback and seeing how they respond.
Even if you can't change, something still allows you to be informed and and it helps them really feel like you cared about what they thought.So don't do the mushroom approach.Keep them in the dark and feed them.To some extent.It's it sounds like it's often just a communication problem because I've seen that so often where people feel unheard.
Yes, I've told the boss my opinion and nothing's happened.They're just ignoring me.The boss feels like, yeah, I did listen and there's valid reasons for me not to do the thing that you said.But I just never went that last step to say thank you so much for that contribution.Here's why we can't do that.
Or can you workshop with me to find a, a solution that works for everybody?It's just that, yeah, you we never get told anything.So exactly what you said, things get changed and I don't know why.Why do we why do we have to have this new protocol?It's really annoying.I like your What sucks having a board in the clinic.It always feels like it'll be too negative, but it's a good starting point to say, well, head is a board.
What?Call it the What Sucks board.Right, it's a two things, two things.One, close the loop.That's what he was just saying.Make sure if people come to you with something, you need to have a system.Sticky notes.I use Google Keep spreadsheets, whatever to remind yourself to close the loop with that person.
Follow.I mean, you don't have to have 100% success rate, but try to get it to like 80% where you just follow up just to say, hey, got your e-mail, read through everything.Just so you know, we won't be able to do XYZ for now, but can we follow up on this in three months?Let's put something on the calendar.You can kick it down the road. 2 Don't be afraid of people's negativity.
When we avoid people's negativity, it's like mold that grows in the dark.Shine the light on the mold and it dies.Bring the negativity out, but always.So this is the key.When you allow people to share negativity, you must then say if you're going to bring something negative to me, you need to have a solution or multiple solutions attached to it.
Do not come to my office just to vent.It's a waste of time.You're going to come in and talk about what's not working.I need you to also just express what is working and what we can do better.You need to balance your feedback and teach your team to do the same.Because as a leader, if you're just being dumped on with negativity, you're going to burn out.It's not fun at all.
It's not your job.You're not their therapist.So I encourage leaders to coach your team on how they should communicate with you as.Well, and I think that that element of transparency, to the extent that leaders are able to be transparent, I mean, we can't tell everybody everything.
I get that.But from the other side of that, from the team's perspective, when people don't know what's going on, they are going to make up some kind of a story to make it make sense.And because our brains are preprogrammed to attune to the negative, it's going to be a negative story.
So when people don't understand what's happening, they're going to jump to the worst case scenario.They're going to assume that's what's happening, and then they're going to spread the rumors, they're going to act accordingly.And that's where things just kind of start to spiral when most of the time that's not even close to what's really happening.
And it could have been so easily prevented with just a little bit of, hey, changes are coming.This is what we're thinking about.We're going to, we're going to let you know what's going on when we can.For now, this is what we need you to to do to make the transition as smooth as possible.All right, that's an hour on the clock.
We should probably start ramping up.Have I missed it again?I was going to ask, have I missed anything important?Yes, I'm sure days and days I've got to end with for this conversation.Anything we haven't covered guys that you think is important to to raise?I'll just say don't go it alone.
I think leaders often feel like it's all on your shoulders.It's not like we all got here by collaborating and working together with others.It's the same thing as a leader.And, and for those of you who are not in leadership who are listening, same thing like know that you're not alone and how you feel.If you're feeling unappreciated or that you don't have a growth path forward, I guarantee you're not the only one in your team.
And sometimes it takes one person to speak up and break that ice with leadership to then open it up for everybody else.So I just want to encourage those to know the more we can communicate and collaborate and pull together as as a united team, the more enjoyment and satisfaction you'll get from your work by far.
It's it's tremendous what it does when we come together.I would say remind yourself as often as necessary, at least every day, but even more often if, if that's what's needed, the reason why you're doing this work in the first place.Because it's so easy to get bogged down in, in all the frustrations and the obstacles and the friction that we have to face with the team and the angry clients and the long hours.
Why are we doing this?You know, we all came into this profession with a dream, something that inspired us and a feeling like we wanted to contribute to something that has a lot of meaning.And it's if we don't actively remind ourselves of all the amazing moments that we have throughout the course of the day, we get swept away in that avalanche of all the things.
And it's, it's, it's too easy to lose that connection with the thing that drove us to become veterinary people in the first place.All right, wrap up questions podcasts you make 1 Crystal, do you listen?I, I, I see you're a podcast listener.
Yes.Any favorites?So my my favorites would be I love the Huberman Lab by Andrew Huberman at Stanford.I love all the Freakonomics, every one of their multiple shows, they're all great.And of course, as a therapist, I really enjoy Hidden Brain.All great podcasts, Natalie.
Not directly related to veterinary medicine, but I love every word that comes out of Mel Robin's mouth, so I would highly recommend her podcast for anyone that is interested in learning more about how human brains work.Yeah, I'll pass along question where a previous guest asks questions for my next guest.
So the one that is coming to you guys from Brooke and Toledo, they wanted to know, knowing about all of the challenges and how hard it can be to be in veterinary science, would you recommend veterinary science as a career option to your children?
I'd say 1000% yes.I think it's one of the best professions on the entire planet.I think there's endless potential and veterinary medicine, you can do anything.You can be a clinician, you can teach, you can be in research like you can be in industry.It's just so diverse and the people that you work with are incredible people, deeply empathic, deeply caring.
I just think it's beautiful.Yeah, I would say there was a, there's a probably a couple decades in my life when I would have said hell no.But I, I think I have come full circle and I, I recognize how important it is.It's, it's so important to really have veterinarians that are still in love with what they do.
And in order for that to happen, I think we really have to prepare the new generation of, of veterinarians to know what they're getting into because it's not all puppies and kittens and rainbows.You know, there's tough moments.There's moments when you're going to have absolutely no idea what to do as a leader, as a business owner.
And there's moments when you're going to wish that you had better communication skills because so many of us spend our time hiding from learning those human skills.And it it does come back to bite us.But when we know the direction that we're into and how we want the future look, it is easier to create that change.
And it's going to change with the new wave of fresh, young and still excited the the next generation of veterinarians.I love that you said be in love with Victory Science.That's literally what I changed.I don't know if you've noticed in about 6 months ago, I added that as the tagline for the podcast through trying to work.
Why do I do the podcast?What do I want people to get out of it?And the tagline now is the vet for podcast fall in love with Victory Science.That's what it's about.And it's such a your answer is probably mine and it's such a common thing.The 1st 10 years of my career, it would have been no ways.No, there's a million better ways to make a living than being a vet.
And as you say, coming full circle.And now when I, because I, I meet lots of vets who will say absolutely not and my kids can do anything else but not vet.And it, it makes me sad.I want to say like, yeah, you're doing it wrong, something missing.It should be really good.You're in the wrong place.
You're not approaching in the right way.It can be really amazing so.Yeah.And I would add also the the practices that really do pay attention to how happy and fulfilled and satisfied their veterinarians and their veterinary teams are.They have so much less frustration with turnover and productivity and engagement.
All those things just kind of take care of themselves.OK, question for my next guest that you can each give me your own question or you can have a combined one.In fact 2 would be great because I always forget to ask.I ask the question and then I forget to ask for the follow up so.OK, Yeah, I, I have mine.
I would love to know from anybody that's on.What do you believe contributes to a long and meaningful career in veterinary medicine?Wow, big one.OK.My question would be, what is one thing that if you had been taught as a veterinary student, would have made a huge difference in your career as a veterinarian?
Oh.Nice.All right.Now let's wrap up with the the one question, the big question.You are in front of all the veterinary new grads of 2024.That's where we are at today and you have a couple of minutes to give them just one little bit of advice for their vet careers going forward.
Remember the reason why we go to work, we became veterinarians because we love healing.We love, we love perpetuating that human animal bond and, and we just, we get so much joy out of those kinds of interactions.But it's so easy to let work creep into your personal life.
Most of us go to work because we want to provide a certain quality of life for ourselves and our families.And there's nothing worse than getting to the end of your life and looking back and saying, I worked myself to death.I, I, I contaminated my personal relationships, my marriage broke up, my kids don't know who I am anymore.
There there's a balance and it is possible to find fulfillment in your work, but make sure that you're also making time and putting the effort into finding fulfillment in your personal life as well.I thought a lot about this one.What I would share is that when you walk into a clinic, everybody around you is going to view you as a leader.
Even though you might think not think of yourself as a leader yet, that's how you're going to be perceived.So I would recommend investing time and energy as soon as possible and to learning leadership skills like communication, time management, boundaries like all these subtleties, conflict resolution management, how to run effective meetings.
These are things that you were not taught in vet school, but you're an excellent learner.You can absolutely learn them probably pretty quickly.So take the time because you're already a leader whether you know it or not.So let's make your life easier and have you enjoy the ride by by just onboarding these skills quickly.Like that.
So where would you begin?I've got my new grad listening to this going.Oh, wow.OK, where do I begin?Have you got a starting point to say, well, this is a book or a course or something?That's a great starting point to develop this.The easiest thing I could get, which is probably just, it feels like a call to action, not intentionally, but they are.
They are welcome to reach out to us.We do free consults all the time.Just like a quick meet and greet.Tell me where you're at on the map and then I can guide us.So our team is a mixture of therapy, social workers and veterinarians.We do a lot of referring people to resources.I don't like to disconnect a blanket statement, but if we can you tell me where you're at on the map, I can help say what should your next step be?
So I'd say just do a quick console because there's a lot out there.It'd be nice just to narrow it down so we're not wasting time pointing people in a direction that might not be fruitful for them.Amazing Crystal, Natalie, thank you so much for this, for your time here, but more importantly for spreading positivity and good vibes and making work suck a lot less for veterinarians or.
Sticky cord would be always empty on WhatsApp.Thank you very much for your time.I really.Thanks for having us, it's been a pleasure.OK, like our last full episode?No ad for the newsletter this week.There's a link for that in the show description.
Go and sign up for it.But it's time for my belly rub.A bit of marketing slash bragging with my favorite podcast review of the week overlaid with some overly dramatic music.This one is from Aaron V, an Aussie recent grad working in Canada, who sent me a lovely e-mail about a specific case where the podcast that he listened to on the way to work that morning was immediately applicable when you got to work and a case suddenly went South and what he literally just listened to helped him address the mess he signed off with.
I wonder how often it crosses your mind that your podcast literally saves lives probably every day.God only knows how many other vets are using your podcast every day to improve the way they work and change the life of their patients.It's been great to hear some familiar voices too.Many of your guests are extremely respected specialists who are teachers at my vet school and it's been a blessing to continue learning from them beyond my graduation.
Aaron, you are a true vet fault nerd.Your vet fault nerd cap is in the mail, although it's Christmas so you might only get it in time for Easter.Your review made my day.Thank you and keep up the good work for the rest of you.If you want to make my day, please review the podcast on your podcast player of choice and or hit that five star review button.
Beyond making me happy, it will also help to convince the Apple and Spotify algorithms that the Vet Vault is the best veterinary podcast in the world, which will help other vets fine.In return for you doing me that favor, I promise that I will keep working hard at making this the best veterinary podcast in the world.
Thank you.We'll see you next time.

Crystal Stokes

Dr. Natalie Fayman