Nov. 14, 2024

#132: Beyond the Bottom Line: Redefining Veterinary Business Success and Mastering Money Conversations. With Dr. Paul Harrison

#132: Beyond the Bottom Line: Redefining Veterinary Business Success and Mastering Money Conversations. With Dr. Paul Harrison

In this episode, Dr. Paul Harrison, a leading expert in consumer behavior, shares insights into the challenges veterinarians face when discussing pricing and money with clients. Drawing from his research in consumer psychology and his work with businesses across various sectors, Dr. Harrison explores why many veterinarians feel uncomfortable addressing costs, despite the importance of transparency in pricing. He explains that this discomfort stems from a clash between the caring nature of veterinary professionals and the necessity of running a profitable business. The discussion touches on the tension between community service and corporate practices, highlighting how shifting towards a more business-oriented mindset can create friction with clients. Dr. Harrison also emphasizes the importance of empathy, acknowledging that both veterinarians and clients often feel uneasy about money discussions. He concludes by encouraging vets to rethink the conventional pursuit of constant growth and profit, advocating for a more balanced and values-driven approach to success in the veterinary field.

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Season 1

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What if you asked the head of a famous business school for some veterinary business advice, but instead of telling you about a new system to increase productivity or some new marketing hack, he tells you to ‘focus less on the business side of veterinary practice’? 

"You have to stop imposing a managerial mindset on these types of businesses - a 'business mindset.' Managerialism has seeped into everything - into industries where it shouldn't be. "

An interview that started with the goal of helping vets get better at having difficult finance conversations quickly detoured into a discussion about:

- The philosophy of veterinary business,

- Why the managerialism  that works in some industries doesn’t always translate well into ours, and

- What true success could look like. 

(Don’t worry - we do also get insights on how to make those money conversations less stressful!) 

 

Dr Paul Harrison is the Director of the MBA program and Co-Director of the Better Consumption Lab at Deakin University's School of Business, and Adjunct Professor at Sacred Heart University in Milan.The MBA program that Paul designed for Deakin ranks 1st in the world for class experience. Paul is a renowned  international speaker on issues related to consumer behaviour, public health and well-being, governance, and marketing.  

 

Topics and Timestamps

Money Conversations: Challenges and Strategies 04:50

Balancing Business and Values in Veterinary Practice 07:29

Rethinking Success: Beyond Financial Growth 12:17

Exciting News: Clinical Podcast Updates 17:24

Embracing Uncertainty and Value 19:32

Controlling the Customer Experience 24:08

Philosophical Approaches in Business 24:29

Understanding Customer Needs 25:45

Money Conversations in Veterinary Practice 27:15

Human Decision-Making in Emergencies 34:05

Emotional Management in Emergencies 40:30

 

We love to hear from you. If you have a question for us or you’d like to give us some feedback please get in touch via our contact form at ⁠thevetvault.com⁠, or catch up with us on ⁠Instagram⁠.

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"5 Ways to Improve Money Conversations in the Vet Clinic"

Here are 5 ways to improve money conversations in the vet clinic, based on the interview with Dr. Paul Harrison:

  1. Build a Relationship: Build rapport with pet owners from the beginning so that money conversations are part of the ongoing dialogue and not a sudden, isolated event. When clients trust the vet, they’re more likely to accept recommendations without feeling pressured or misled.
  2. Be Upfront About Costs: Don't wait until the end of a consultation to discuss money. Introduce the topic of cost early on to manage client expectations. Transparency is key to building trust and reducing client dissatisfaction.
  3. Acknowledge Client Concerns: Be empathetic and understand that clients may struggle with finances. If you sense hesitation or concern, acknowledge it and offer to discuss alternative options.
  4. Manage Uncertainty: Uncertainty is a major cause of client dissatisfaction. Provide clear and consistent information about diagnoses, treatment options, and potential outcomes to help alleviate anxieties. In emergency situations, explain the situation honestly and directly, and offer alternative services if appropriate.
  5. Create a Calm Environment: A chaotic environment with bright lights and noise can lead to emotional decision-making. Create a calm, welcoming atmosphere to help clients feel more at ease when discussing sensitive matters. Soft lighting and music can help reduce stress and encourage rational thinking.

“Why Talking About Money Doesn’t Have to Be Awkward in Veterinary Medicine”

Talking about money can be awkward, especially in veterinary medicine, where the focus is on caring for animals. However, open communication about finances is crucial for both vets and clients to ensure the best possible care for pets.

The interview with Dr. Paul Harrison, a consumer behavior expert, provides valuable insights into why money conversations can be difficult in veterinary practices and offers practical advice on how to improve them. Here are some key takeaways:

  • It's Not Just You: Many vets feel uncomfortable discussing money because it can seem like a conflict with their primary goal of helping animals. This discomfort is understandable and acknowledging it is the first step towards improvement.
  • Clients Understand: Clients also recognize that veterinary care is not purely a corporate business and can be empathetic towards vets' hesitation to discuss costs.
  • Transparency is Key: Uncertainty about costs is a significant predictor of client dissatisfaction. Being open and honest about fees from the beginning can help build trust and manage expectations.
  • Early and Ongoing Conversations: Integrate money discussions naturally throughout the relationship with the client, rather than bringing it up only at the end of a consultation. This makes the topic less daunting and allows for more open dialogue.
  • Focus on the Relationship: Building a strong vet-client relationship based on trust and understanding can make money conversations feel less transactional and more collaborative.

By implementing these strategies, veterinary professionals can navigate money conversations with more confidence and ease, ultimately leading to better outcomes for both pets and their owners.

“3 Key Insights on Balancing Compassion and Profit in Your Practice”

Here are 3 key insights on balancing compassion and profit in your veterinary practice, based on the interview with Dr. Paul Harrison:

  1. Acknowledge the Inherent Conflict: Veterinarians often feel tension between their passion for animal welfare and the need to run a profitable business. This conflict is normal and should be acknowledged rather than ignored. It's important to recognise that vets are driven by compassion, not corporate greed. This understanding forms the foundation for approaching money conversations with clients.
  2. Redefine Success: The traditional corporate model of constant growth and profit maximisation doesn't always fit the unique context of veterinary care. Instead of solely focusing on financial metrics, consider a broader definition of success that includes:
    • Client Satisfaction: Building trust and long-term relationships with clients.
    • Employee Wellbeing: Creating a positive work environment that supports staff and reduces burnout.
    • Ethical Practices: Providing high-quality care without compromising animal welfare.
  3. Prioritise Open Communication: Transparency and honesty are crucial for navigating money conversations effectively.
  • Discuss costs upfront and throughout the client relationship to manage expectations and reduce uncertainty.
  • Offer alternative treatment plans if clients are struggling financially.
  • Create a calm and welcoming environment that encourages open dialogue.

By reframing the concept of success and prioritizing open communication, veterinary practices can achieve a balance between compassion and profit, ensuring both the wellbeing of animals and the sustainability of their business.

If you're wondering what that sound is, that's us opening a can of worms.Because when you're at a veterinary business conference speaking to the director of a Business School about how to get better at veterinary business, and his main take away is that maybe you shouldn't be so obsessed with the business side of things.
Let's just say people sit up and pay attention.I'm Hubert Thiemstra and you are listening to The Wet Vault where we love to open cans of worms and Pandora's boxes and kick and Hornets nests and generally poker noses into the business of those in and around the vet profession to see what's truly at the heart of this career of ours.
And in this episode we chat to Doctor Paul Harrison, who is the director of the MBA program and Co Director of the Better Consumption Lab at Deacon University School of Business and an adjunct professor at Sacred Heart University in Milan.At Deacon University, Paul designed and teaches a unique hybrid MBO program that ranks first in the world for class experience.
Paul is also a renowned international speaker on issues related to consumer behaviour, public health and well-being, governance and marketing, and is also a familiar face and voice in the media in all things business, including podcasts for your podcast nerds like the Marketing Lab.
All pretty business sister, right?I had the privilege of catching up with Paul earlier this year at the Australian Veterinary Association's Business Chapters annual conference to unpack some of his talks on marketing, consumer psychology and money conversations.So I went into this interview planning on talking about how we, as frontline workers in the vet world, can get better, more comfortable, or at least less awkward at having those money conversations that we love so much.
Not really.And if that's what you want to hear about, we do tap into Pauls extensive expertise in consumer psychology to find out how to get better at talking to clients about money and how to minimize uncertainty.Uncertainty is one of the biggest predictors of dissatisfaction.
Oh, by the way, if you're in a hurry to get to that, but you can click on the fancy new chapter links on your podcast player to go straight there if you really have to.But I do recommend that you stick around for the start because as you'll hear, this is not your typical business conversation.
Doctor Paul Harrison, thank you so much for joining the Vet Vault at ASAV and VBG, the Vet Business Group Conference 2024.Thanks Hubert for my first ever outdoors podcast.It's.Kind of nice, hopefully the nice next to the toilets but you know, yes we'll cope I.Did when I was setting up, I didn't hear the the fan go, obviously.
We'll see how we go.Yeah.So you did some awesome talks this morning and the one that really grabbed my attention that I think is probably one of the biggest topics for practising veterinarians is the psychology of price.And, and a lot of what you talked about was aimed at practice owners, right, about how do you set your pricing, But I missed the beginning of your talk.
Did you talk?At all about.Talking about money and cost and price in the consult room that clinician to.Yeah.I mean, I think I come at it from a consumer perspective.So it's more about how your market, how your customers, your clients interpret price.
And so my field of research is in consumer behaviour and it's, it's not specifically in vet services, it's in, it's across all contexts.And so you know, I consult to government on regulation, I consult to businesses on kind of consumer behaviour.
So my, my field is behavioural psychology.And then it's about, OK, so for example, how might people interpret price, for example?So even though the topic itself was a psychology of price, it was actually more of a conversation just of kind of human behaviour and human psychology that we kind of eventually got onto.
Yeah.So when we talk about human behaviour in this regard, there was a question in one of the talks that I'll circle back to, to my point, but where I think you asked the audience, why don't we want to advertise our prices on our websites?Why are we, why Australian vetting the hospitals are?
I think it's a psychology thing.Personally think so.At the vet.At the vet level of we still feel like talking about money is is a little bit of a dirty thing.We are.And you say we're part of the community.We do a valuable community service and we all majority of vets study to be vets because we want to help animals and they find.
And then there's this thing that we have to interject in there to say and it's going to cost this much.And for the, for so many vets that I will 100% with myself at the top of the list.That is the worst part of the job.Asking us, talking money, talking money because it's a conflict point because because here I am, you've got your daughter's dog there.
I do emergency work.So you want to be there even less than than if it's a vaccination or anything.And I'm like, yes, I can help you.I've got amazing skills.I really want to help you.I really like animals.I want to help your pet.But it's going to be $5000 surgery and suddenly we've got a point of conflict And we in our own hands as vets again, me for sure, but I know a lot of us, it's a major stressor.
Like we work ourselves up towards God, shouldn't I?We're going to talk about money and then the ongoing care as well.Well, now it's this much, now it's this much.So yes, I'd love to get an insight from the client's perspective, how can we do it better?How can it be less of an issue for us?Look, I, I think the first thing to kind of acknowledge is that it's a real conflict.
I think you're not alone.I think often, you know, I, it was funny because I have a, an adjunct professor role in Catholic University in Italy and one of my closest friends, she's a, she works for a nonprofit called Action Night Abroad.And we went for a walk in Milan, call me along one of the canals a few months back.
And she works for this company.And she said, you know, like I'm, I'm here because I want to make sure because it's, it looks after women in poverty.It's important to her.It's, it's a, it's a calling for her, but also she wants to make a living from it.
And she said, why can't we get paid more Because we're doing this good thing.And it was a really interesting kind of perspective.It's the same with vets.It's the same with anyone in a kind of, I guess a, a service industry where it's about caring.Look, I, I don't think it's an easy answer.
And I think what I said to Talia was nonprofits, vets, they're not really corporates in a way.They, they, they are community services.And I think then what you've got to do is you've, you've got to stop imposing, I guess, a managerial mindset on these types of businesses, a business mindset.
I think the difficulty we've had over the last 20 or 30 years is that managerialism has seeped into everything, into industries where it shouldn't be.I think efficiency and effectiveness, you know, as a concept of management is an, is an important thing.But even though I, I'm in a Business School, I run the Deacon MBA program.
I think also we have to acknowledge that there are just some sectors that can't be as corporate as others and it might well be considered a continuum.So the first thing I kind of come back to is that acknowledge that the reason you became a vet is not for a managerial corporate reason.
It's because you care about the critters, you know, which is what my brother-in-law, Winston, who's a vet always says.That's that's you just have to acknowledge that.So you are going to be uncomfortable when suddenly you have to talk about things like cost and price again, accept it, acknowledge it.
It's OK to be uncomfortable.And I think that's the first thing.So also I think your customers, your your cut consumers also kind of don't see it as a corporate enterprise.They see it as a community.
Service and they get quite angry at us well I'd say they is there some belief in the profession that they do it's a small minority that.Do and I think we remember those because we have a, you know, a negative bias.Yep.But I think the other thing to remember is so having that level of empathy with your customers is important too, to say, well, I feel it.
So why wouldn't they feel it as well?The, the problem is though, that when we start creating a service environment that feels more corporate and transactional than relational, we actually create a rod for our own backs.Because we're, what we're doing is that we've followed the very bad marketing tactic advice, which is, you know, where uniforms have a beautiful environment, those kinds of things.
Because we've been told over 15 or 20 years, you know, you've got to create a, you've got to have a brand, you've got to have these things.When in fact we're not, well, when vets aren't as pure corporates as, I don't know, KPMG or Accenture or a bank.
But what we've done is that we've borrowed ideas from these corporate environments and somehow they've permeated into a whole bunch of industries that don't need to be as corporate.That's why people then get all kind of, because it's a conflict.There's a dissonance.It's like, well, you've created this corporate environment.
We're now, we're now a customer of your business.We expect a degree of service.I mean, I can say that there are a whole range of sectors that should not be managerial, but they've become managerial because over time we we've appointed more and more people who come from, I don't know what you'd probably call unsophisticated managerial kind of backgrounds.
And you know, I think that's the other thing is that I, I, there's, there's a, one of my students who was just recently with me on a study tour.He is, he runs a physiotherapy kind of business.He was kind of saying the stuff that he learned in my marketing class.He feels now comfort to go to his marketing person and say, this is not what our business is.
What you're doing is applying a corporate model to something that doesn't apply to physiotherapy.And look, I think it's always good to get people with diverse perspectives, but context is everything.And we get excited by solutions, but we don't think, well, what actually is our business, What are we in the business of as opposed to just solving problems through a managerial lens?
You've just opened the.Whole can of worms has changed everything so I've been a vet for. 23 years now in the profession long enough to have been part of that whole transition.So practices when I qualified for the vast majority were small family owned, all heart, very bad financial and leadership and management often, often do the detriment of the staff.
So as you said, there's many things, money aside that that's has benefited greatly from having a more of a professional attitude, not just mops and pops businesses.It's a rare business, but I have definitely seen that shift to say, well, let's make it an actual business that makes money.
But there's a good reason for that, because back in the.In those old days, traditionally, certainly the vibe I got when I was a a young grad from business owners, they had practice owners was like, this is a shit idea.This is way better ways to make money than this.I slave myself away.It's a it's a calling.
It's not a it's not a job and I make no money.This business makes no profit.There's often a lot of and, and again, traditionally, I'm sure you know what much of the if they've told you, but very high burnout rates, career and, and I for me as a young red for sure money came into that.I was like, well, I, I want to have a family.
I don't want to be a bachelor for the rest of my life just because I like, because I care for the critters.So then there's the shift.OK, how do we make this more profitable?How do we make it a business that makes money?But as you say, the in that we've created a new problem for ourselves that we, we've maybe I feel sometimes erode some of that trust that we've taken 100 years to create in our business and, and now we is that accurate?
Like there's.AI think it's really difficult in these types of sectors.Well, actually I, you know, I, I think, I think the concept of constant growth and constant profit is a myth.And we see that whether it's a massive corporation or whether it's a small family run business.
Or a country.Or a country.I think there is a, a mythology around this, but there was a really interesting book.You know, a lot of books have come out and given us examples of businesses are really successful and here's the tricks that you need to do, but they don't look at the other 999 other businesses that did the exact same thing and weren't successful.
And I think again, managerialism has been really good at promoting managerialism without a lot of evidence.And, and, and I talked about this in the talk is that, you know, what's the alternative hypothesis here?So The thing is that I think what we do is it's, it's like a treatment in a way.
It's like we latch onto a treatment because we think it's going to fix everything.But we kind of know that there's a lot of unknowns.And I think then if we're talking about the kind of corporatisation of, of vets, whether it's a small kind of local five person kind of enterprise Oregon, a big corporation, you, you've got to actually say what what are we doing this for?
And I just, you know, it's hard to say, but I think as you say, Hubert, is that you shouldn't go in to a, a sector like this because you want to make a lot of money.I mean, in a way, you shouldn't probably go into any job because you want to make a lot of money because none of it's guaranteed.
Like, you know, you might go, I want to go into, I don't know, investment banking or something like that, But then it pushes up against your values.One of my closest friends, he's an investment banker and he left because he went.This is not fitting with my values.The the person I was talking about earlier, Talia Smartest, one of the smartest people I know, beautiful, beautiful, kind human being.
She worked for Accenture Song, which is a Consulting Group.She was poached by BAT, which is British American Tobacco.She in her mind was going well.I think I just for a bit, I want to make some money.She was there for three months and then she went to the nonprofit.
She doesn't get paid what she got paid at Accenture or BAT, but she actually is going.I wish I could get paid more, but actually I feel better about what I do.I go home feeling OK, Sorry, Tully, or if you're listening, but I think this is the thing.This is the conflict that we have, you know, and, and The thing is that even if you did want to make a lot of money in any, it's not guaranteed.
This is The thing is that I, I, I just feel there's a naivety about people going, Oh, but you know, I gave up this because I'm doing this.No, you didn't.You chose a path and that's your path.I, I have a joke.My partner, she was a lawyer at a bank in Brazil and she said, you know, probably if I'd stayed with the bank and not move to Australia, I'd probably be kind of running the legal firm at the at the bank.
And I said, or you could have been an astronaut.We don't know.Because The thing is you don't know where your path takes you.And I think this is the reality is that again, it's a a misapprehension to think I could be making more money elsewhere because you could be, but you may not be as well, you may be making less money.
I I just opened the quote.It's funny saying that I write that I like writing down quotes or bits of things that I read.And this is something from Bertrand.Russell, Philosopher.Philosopher, I cannot condemn a man to undertake work of the sort.So this is work, work that clashes with your values, since starvation is too serious an alternative.
But I think that where it is possible to do work that is satisfactory to a man's constructive impulses without entirely starving, he will be well advised from the point of view of his own happiness, if he chooses it in preference to work much more highly paid than that not seeming to him worth doing in his own account.
Basically, some other smart people have agreed with you.That's good.But this is really especially.Different Russell A A.Fascinating conversation to be having at a vet business.Yeah, I know so.Basically telling all the business owners in here who are here to figure out how to be Better Business owners.Is to be better.Maybe chasing the wrong?
Thing Oh, I without a doubt, without a doubt.Well, I think The thing is, how do we define a business as well?Like, again, a business should be a means to an end.So it should be what is that end that I want?Do I want a good life?You know, I, I think it's really important to acknowledge that it's a short life.
People spend a long time, I don't know, 10 years, you know, not seeing their families so that they can have a strong business.But even then, you're still on the hamster wheel.You're still going.Well, now that I'm successful, I need to stay successful rather than actually going.Maybe I just have a limit of what successful is, but I think the mentality and I, you know, I think I come back to this a lot is that growth for growth's sake is just an abstract concept.
And we always think we have to be constantly growing.But actually sometimes it's nice to just go, maybe I don't need to grow and maybe I need to whatever the opposite of grow is, reduce, you know, do less because it gives me a different type of life.Because the only measure you're using when you talk about growth is financial growth.
But growth can be all sorts of things.That can be growth in values, that can be growth in in me as a human being.It can be growth in terms of connecting with others in the community.But what we've done is that we've fallen back on a very easily measured tangible concept, which is percentage growth year by year.
Quick interruption here to give you a bit of exciting news about our clinical podcasts and then we'll get straight back to Paul.If you are not a subscriber to our ECC medicine and surgery clinical podcasts, you might not know that we make a lovely show notes for each episode that you can use as a reference later, which is what I do when I'm at work.
It's become my first stop reference resource.But we are now up to about 600 episodes.And by the way, I had an e-mail the other day from a subscriber who said, hey, I'm going to cancel for a while because I've listened to the full back catalogue of episodes.So I'm taking a break but I'll be back.
Dude, you deserve a break.I think I should send you a prize or maybe even a degree or something like that.Anyway I digress. 600 episodes means 600 sets of notes and even I am getting a bit fuzzy on which notes will give me what information.
So I made myself an AI assistant that has access to all of our show notes and everything in them so that I can ask it questions like which episodes cover ATP and dogs, or what was the treatment protocol for severe hyperkalemia or what dose of decks did Prof Church recommend for treating Ansonian crisis And, and, and you get the picture.
Our AI, which I've called the Key to the Vet Vault, will then pull up the info that you needed and also give you a reference for which set of notes it has taken this information from so you can double check it.It is pretty bloody nifty and I have finally figured out how to share it with our subscribers.
It is a free inclusion for all of our clinical podcast subscribers.However, building it and updating it and sustaining it will cost a bit of extra money.So once we've tested it and proven that it works, I will be increasing our subscription fees for all new signups.Don't panic if you already signed up.
Your fees will stay the same as long as you stay signed in.But if you are on the fence about signing up, get off the fence in the next six weeks or so, which is when we'll institute our price rise.Oh, by the way, practice subscriptions will also stay on the same deal that you signed up for, even if you get new team members.
So lock it in while you can, OK?After all of that.Business talk.Let's get back to it with Doctor Paul Harrison.And you said it in your talk, culturally, success is measured by dollars in bank.Yeah, that I drive, which is very hard to get away from because I philosophically, I philosophically don't think it's a good thing.
And I don't want to disagree with it, but I still want to.It's nice to be in a country.I don't want to go skiing in Japan, but it wants to say I heard.What's the limit?Money that cut my happiness, but it's much nicer to cry in a Mercedes than on a bicycle.Yeah, true, true.And look, The thing is, I mean, there's there's a really interesting kind of perspective, which is, you know, the this idea of just assume that this could be taken completely taken.
Away from you at any point in time and then live your life in that way.And I think that's, I mean, you know, this is a vet podcast, but it's actually a good way to kind of approach life is that the things that are important to you could disappear at any point in time.So make the most of these things now.
Like I can, I'm comfortable telling you my wife had leukemia.She died in 2017 after a stem cell transplant.It's, it's quite confronting to say this person who you spent 27 years with is no longer in your life.But I need to keep going.And I think what I've learned and maybe, you know, it's not a, I'm not presenting myself as, you know, some kind of resilience project or anything like that, but it's kind of like you have to work out.
OK.So every decision I make, I have to make the assumption that everything that I think is what is mine now may not be there tomorrow.And I think it's really important to say that to yourself.It's not like live every moment as if it's your last.But I, I think actually it's good to kind of live every moment as if it's your first and your last because then you actually have a much better view of even your business going.
Am I OK with pressuring myself and my staff to keep on growing if tomorrow I'm not here?And you know, Maddie, my, my late wife, she used to say, what do we want to do now?Because it was always like, I don't know what the future holds, but, you know, as good parents, as good family members, as good people in the world, what do I want to do?
And I think the mistake we've made with a lot of industries is that we've used one metric as a measure of success and it's financial.And that money actually, I mean, you're right, money can kind of buy you experiences that make you happy.
But you can also do things like, you know, I've, I've lived there was a point when I had to get food packages from the Salvation Army.I was still happy.And I think this is The thing is that it's more about a whole bunch of other factors than just money.And I think that's an important kind of thing for particularly vets.
I mean, I'm exposing a lot about myself in this little podcast, but I think, you know, as one of the sectors, similarly, like a lot of my friends who are in the medical profession and things like that, often you end up in these professions in a way by accident.It's not as driven.
And I think certainly with vets, though, it's kind of like you are driven to these things.You, you've, you care about the critters.And so you go, well, that's what my motivation is not to make lots of money.It would be nice if I could, but we kind of maybe think of that as an extra making lots of money.
But am I doing the things that threw me into this profession?As a marketer, I'm sure you're familiar with Seth, Seth Godin, and he's right.I.Think it's all that you?Hate Seth Godin?Yeah.Oh, no, sorry.As as even when it is.No, no, no.I'd love to get it was.Like he's a good storyteller.What you just said there, there's one story and I think of this really often.
He tells a story that he went on some corporate treat.He was speaking and one of the activities was fly fishing.He's a vegetarian, vegan or something, and he's got no desires to catch a fish vegetarian, but he but he or something.Yeah, he doesn't.He doesn't kill fish, basically.So, but he liked the idea of the fly fishing and he said he asked the guide can he give him a hookless fly and he just wants to cast.
And by the end of the session he was really enjoying it and he was really good at the casting and stuff.And the other guys who were there to try and catch the fish were so focused on the fish that they were miserable and they and they weren't focusing on how they were casting.And he says that is how money should be in your business.You focus on the process, then you'll catch fish eventually.
Maybe, maybe.Or maybe you won't.Or.Maybe you won't.There was my criticism of that.That that's the critical thing is that nothing a lot of stuff is outside of your control and acknowledging that is actually a nice step as well is acknowledging that there's a lot and the moment, particularly the moment that you walk into the concept of a marketplace with consumers, because that's my field kind of thing.
So much is out of your control and so acknowledging that and going well, what can I control?Things you can control is that the experience that you're customers, clients have when they come to the clinic or the way that you treat people or how you listen to people when they're telling you things.
What you can't control is economic downturns, but you can control how you treat people in an economic downturn.I, I think I always like to come back to that, even in like it with, so I run the MBA program at Deacon, but I, I always have to start thinking about, well, what can I control?
Like there was a lot of stuff outside of my control, but I'm, you know, maybe that that's, I'm not a good kind of person for my Dean.When I say to her, well, this is outside of my control.I can't fix that.And then we start kind of playing.It's, it's what I talked about in my talk is that we start doing things.
We've got to do engagement.We've got to do a price discount.It's like, but we don't know if that works and we don't know if that's the reason why people are or aren't coming to us.But what it is, it's something we can, well, we got to feel like we're.Doing something when we feel out of control and powerless.We got.We got.
To do something, we got to do something.Anything.Yeah, exactly anything.Well, you know, do some interpretive dance or something, I don't know.I love to do the deed of the NBA with your philosophical views.Anti anti corporate, not anti corporate but.I think IA friend of mine who's a, he's a colleague and a kind of corporate leader.
He always says I'm a cynical marketer and I quite like that.I, I like to be cynical, maybe maybe not cynical, but I like to question.And I just think it's just a more sophisticated way to approach it.I think the mistake we make in business just in general is that we latch onto an idea and then we just run with it.
And you know, what we're doing is that we're kicking to where everybody already is.If we're copying people, it's already a lag kind of process because they're already doing it.I don't know how they got there.We don't know why they got to that decision, but we're just copying it.We're going, well, let's do that kind of thing.
And I see that all the time.You know, we have to do this.And I, I did some work for some of the football clubs kind of thing and they said, well, this club has this membership program and so we should do.And I go, well, you could and it might.It may or may not have an effect, but do it because you want to do it, not because you think it will have some kind of effect on your business.
Sage, have you got time to to backtrack to the beginning?Because this is that's been my favorite detour ever on a.Oh yeah, did we detour?Because.Well, I wanted to ask about how do we talk about money better and we talked about philosophy, which is actually my favorite thing to talk about.The reality in 2024 for the majority of my listeners are that they are employed vets and they are now employed within practices that are doing the things that maybe.
Yeah.Is not the the right way to approach things, but that's how we're approaching it.And again, we have to ask money for that like the business can't survive if we don't.It has to make some money for sure, for sure.So.So it's still back to that point of view and.I'm not denying that at all, but it's it's the concept of how much money you need to make to be within yourself, feel successful.
But back to the money conversation one-on-one, I'm your vet do there and I need to talk to you about how much is this kind of cost from a client perspective, psychology perspective?How do we do it in the best possible least friction way?
I don't know if it's it's a simple answer or not.It's obviously not because we struggle with it so much.But do you have any insights to make that easy, like practical questions even when you talk about it, I did start at the beginning.A common discussions are because we often have there's the treatment plan I want to do.
If if you said to me I'm insured or I don't care about money, that's the the correct.I don't like the word gold standard but the the absolute best way.Of well, I'd say I would say even the term like gold standard is a bad terminology because it sounds like it's a luxury product.So I I I would say this is what I recommend.
The right way to do things, let's put it that way.But I understand that it's expensive.So even that do we, because there's different schools of thought about this.One says talk about the plan that you want to do and then say, and it's going to cost this much and leave it.Or is it that's that's plan A.
But if that's not doable for you, we can trim this and leave that out.And like any any advice that makes it easier.There are pitfalls with that approach.I think there are pitfalls with all approaches and positives about all approaches.I think in the first instance, the first conversation that if the first, this is the first time you're talking about money when you're talking to them about a treatment plan, I think that's pretty poor anyway.
I think you should be building up a relationship with your owners right from the beginning so that when you have any conversations about money, it's part of the conversation.It's not the only conversation.So that when when they have that conversation with you, they go, well, Hubert has my best interest at heart and has Genevieve or Genevieve with my dog, Genevieve's best interest at Hearty.
And then what happens is an honest conversation happens, which is that person says, I understand that this is what you recommend.At the moment I'm struggling.Is there an alternative?That's one option.The one thing you've got to be very cautious of is don't expect people to read your mind.
OK, So, and this is a mistake we make is that, you know, there's a lot going on in our heads.So we think, well, they should ask me if they have alternative.If they don't ask, but you read from their body language or the conversation that they they're really grappling with it, say, I can see that you're struggling with that amount.
Can you just tell me what you know, what you're thinking is not say I can offer you an alternative, but to say, tell me what you're thinking is the mistake we make is that we want to just get things done as quickly as possible.So we go, well, here's the price, here's two other prices.Most of the time people choose the middle option.We kind of know that.
So then you go, well, if the middle option is a good option, but I don't want you to use tricks like bias, kind of, you know, tricks like that.So if you, if you're actually being an ethical value driven vet, it's saying, this is what I recommend.This hopefully will give Fluffy the outcomes that you need and that will help you know her, he or she to kind of continue to be OK.
These are the downsides of those things.This is the price that we're looking at.If I mean, you're in the, in the clinic with them, you can tell if they're struggling saying, I understand that because also if you've built up a relationship with them and had conversations with them over the life of their pet, you'll also know that maybe they, they struggle a little bit with, with payments and things like that.
Don't make assumptions, but say, you know, I can say that this might be a bit tricky for you.There are a couple of alternatives.Do you want me to tell you about those alternatives?But I think it is just about being honest and transparent.I think again, we want a very managerial efficient model.
We want to put, you know, this is the price kind of thing.And this is the second price.This is the third price.We don't want to actually engage at a relational level and just to be able to say to somebody, you know, we can go down this path, but it might well mean that in six months you'll be back again.
We can deal with it on on those terms when, you know, Fluffy comes back, but just be aware that this might happen.It's about managing expectations, being open and transparent and honest and just a good human being.Transparency.You said something about transparency.Actually, I I wrote down a quote that you said about transparency.
It's, it's one of the well, uncertainty is one of the biggest predictors of dissatisfaction, But uncertainty is a, is a big conceptual idea.So it's, it's what makes people feel uncomfortable.And one of them is, you know, things are outside of their control.And so that's why any bit of information that somebody is given shouldn't come as a surprise.
And I think that's really important.It's like we have a sense as professionals, what's coming when when somebody says to us, you know, Genevieve has cancer or, you know, or whatever, it's like by the time that happened, it should be just a small extra bit of information, should be we've done tests.
It looks like it could be this, but it may not be by the time we get to that point.And we might have gone through all of the kind of emotional turmoil of maybe she has, maybe she hasn't.At least when we get that information, most people will go, OK, what do we need to do next?The thing is, you're dealing with people.
People react in all sorts of different ways.And I think that's something we just have to be conscious of.But understanding your market, understanding your customers will give you a much better understanding when you give them that information.But I just don't think it's A1 size fits all.But that's effortful and it may not make you a profit.
And, and like I was in on the state of the market conversation and the moment that anyone says you should be using AI to do blah, blah, blah, I always go no, like, again, what we're doing is that we're, we've got a solution looking for a problem.It might be an answer, but again, it's a thing, it's a tactic, it's helpful.
But the mistake we make is we just see the latest shiny object and we just grab onto it and say that can fix everything rather than going what are we actually trying to do here?And I think that's the question you should be constantly asking.The uncertainty thing is a, is a big thing.I'm trying to Mull that over.So you said that's it's a, it's an indicator, it's a predictor of dissatisfaction.
If, if there's uncertainty in any interaction or transaction, which is another word you use, it's kind of baked into what we do to some extent.There's some uncertainty especially and, and it's hard for me, I've got to declare I'm an emergency vet.So lots of the stuff that you say is actually harder for us because I don't have time.
No, we don't have a relationship, but you can work with them.You can build, you can build a model around that uncertainty.I think emergency is a great example and I'll use as a similar context and because I can kind of draw from that, emergency departments at hospitals, you know, you don't want to be there at 2:00 AM on a Sunday morning.
Kind of.I was happy to be at our hospital.It's.It's hellish, you know, and the mistake that they make is that they don't understand how humans make choices.So if I, if I'm, I don't know if I fall over and, or if I'm getting a pain in my chest, some people will go, it's a heart attack, I better call an ambulance.
Other people go, it'll go away.OK, because you're dealing with humans making choices.All right, So what you do is that you build a program around the inconsistencies of human decision making.You make it easy for people to make decisions.
So with with this kind of context is that you say not everything is an emergency.If for example, like you say, people come in and you identify it as an emergency, you've got to just make quick decisions and it's just going to cost money.And that's just the way it is kind of thing.
But a lot of the time, and I, I, you know, I recall this as well, is that, you know, if you have, and I, this is kind of what triage should be, is that it's saying, well, this is not an emergency right now, but we've got this service that we could provide to you that is next to us, not go and see your vet tomorrow because you're still dealing with people's human needs that you triage them not to wait, but triage them to a different type of service.
And I think this is, again, it requires a different way of thinking, which is, well, we've got the thing.How do we convince people to use the thing as opposed to what are people's needs and what are they looking for?In a way, when a person brings their pet to a vet, whether it's an emergency or just general, is that they're trying to ameliorate that fear of I might lose my pet.
It's uncertainty, right?It is uncertainty.So then how do you manage that uncertainty?You offer people different ways to solve that uncertainty.To give Peace of Mind because you're right, working in an emergency 5 to 10% of things are genuine emergency.The other stuff's.Exactly.
People are concerned and we've got to offer Peace of Mind and that's that's an appropriate way.To offer Peace of Mind.But I think then you what you do is you start observing you say well if 90% of the people who come don't actually need emergency, but they feel unsettled, they feel scared, how do we build that?
How do we bake that into the service and that you actually have the ancillary service next to it kind of thing.And I think again, it's it's not necessarily me coming to the solution, but it's me observing the experience of emergency in human emergency.
Is that like again, I can just speak very openly about this is that, you know, when somebody has leukemia and their temperature goes above 39, they just say come into emergency straight away.And one of the difficulties we always had is that poor Maddie, you'd would have a spike, a temperature spike at 2:00 AM.
We'd end up in emergency at 2:00 AM.When you've had a stem cell transplant, you have no immune system, you're surrounded by people bleeding from the head and all sorts of things like that.Like it's all that they could have done is that they could have said, you're this type of patient, let's move you to this type of service within the hospital and then move you straight up to the ward.
But because they're stuck in this in a mode which is there's one type of emergency department and that's the only thing.So you just have to wait and we're going to prioritize you.That's what triage has become, not actual what triage should be, which is moving people to get the right types of service.And it probably would have if you say, I don't know what the numbers are, but if you say that 90% of things aren't an emergency, that's actually a massive way to save resources because everybody is not looking at the 100% of people who are coming in.
You have somebody very early on saying this is this type of response right next door, not in the toilet, but right next door is the people who can look after you.There is a bit of a wait.We could probably say that you could come back in six hours and things will be OK or you can come and allay your kind of uncertainty right now.
Well, what happens because The thing is the unlike human medicine, the emergency businesses are private businesses and we and we want the business side, right.It says periods when it's overwhelmed.And then it's very easy to say, look, this is not an emergency.Yeah, but mostly we do want to take it.
We do want to service them.We do want it because it you know, if, if I go on this, there is something to well, you're uncertain.I can do a whole range of things yes, to make to, to alleviate that uncertainty and and I want to as a business.Yep.So if you know what I mean yeah, that's why we're there, right Yep.
I've got to pay my wage somehow, so.You kind of have to accept that you're going to get responses from people saying, wow, that's a lot of money kind of thing.I think, I think the nature of any service industry is that people are going to be dissatisfied.And I think again, just acknowledging that and, and accepting it.
You can't make everybody happy.And I mean, we know that, we know that, but people are complicated, people are messy, you know, and it's, it's OK to acknowledge that.It's hard emotionally, but particularly because you're in an emergency.
It's transactional, more transactional than relational, but that's the nature of the of the business.It's not your fault.And in a way, you know, like I hate to say it, but this is the area that you've chosen to be in.You're going to get people who have a heightened emotional response.Their responses are not going to be controlled.
So when they go, that's a lot of money, I hate you.That's just a natural human response, but it's not about you.It's it's about their response to this under all of the other circumstances that they're experiencing, which include I've had to come out late at night that I couldn't go to my normal vet those but that's just that's just the way it is so us.
Looking for a solution and a way to make it easier is futile because it's not easy because you said in the beginning it is a point of conflict.So accept that it's going to be hard and get used to it and don't take it personally because certainly it's a bit like say, well, I'm a serve instructor and I'm going to complain about getting wet.
Is it?It's going to happen.Right.Yeah, we don't.I mean, we don't kind of, I, I think you can, you can look, I'm not saying don't try different ways of doing things, but I'm saying that part of the job description is that it's the context in which the emergency is taking place is heightened emotionally.
So you can't get away from heightened emotions.There's not going to be the usual kind of give people transparent pricing.And I the the evidence is pretty weak about in those kinds of contexts, but part of it might well be is managing.The emotional context, so speaking calmly, making the environment feel safe, they're the things.
It's not going to be a, you know, a few tricks up your sleeve, you know, look at the website kind of thing.It's going to be more about managing the environment in which the decision making so that things can be slowed down so that people don't react.I mean, when we're emotionally distraught, we respond to our limbic system, how we're feeling.
We don't process information in a clear way.So then what you're doing is that you're going to try and kind of keep things as calm as possible.Bright kind of ego depleting light and music and sound is going to heighten that even more.And I think that's another thing to be thinking about is that the external environment will actually have a significant effect on people's responses.
What's ego depleting light?Well.So ego depletion is a concept which is basically when we're overwhelmed with stimuli.So like lighting, sound, you know, even feeling hungry, we tend to make less rational decisions.
We tend to be more less receptive to detailed information.So the, the classic example is the Gruen transfer, which people may have heard of.It's a concept, it's a show, but it's actually a concept, which is that when people go into a big shopping mall, they, they actually, their ego is depleted, like their ability to make sensible decisions is depleted.
And so they respond to their emotional responses.And that's why supermarkets and casinos have so much light and sand and colours.That's why they're so exhausting.They're exhausting because you tend to make emotional decisions.So if you're trying to manage people's emotions in an emergency context, it's actually really important to reduce the amount.
Of to go the opposite because background music.Don't have background music, have soft lighting, and yet if you go to most emergency departments, it's hard fluorose, it's lots of noise, hard floors, those kinds of things.Again, this is kind of, it doesn't seem, it doesn't seem logical, but it's actually true.
It's like you actually do want to manage the kind of emotional context more than necessarily the, I don't know, the words, pricing, wording and things like that.I could talk to you all day, but it's lunchtime and yeah, it is.You're talking all day.Can I ask you one more question?Sure.
And then again, maybe there's not an answer for.It it should from a client.Perception should the bit Are you discussing the money or is it preferable to have somebody else in the team?Because because you talked a lot about trust.No, I think the vet should be oh.Really.
Yeah.Because I think the relationship is with the vet, OK.And it also kind of then removes that kind of, I don't know that fear that vets have about talking about it.No, I think, I think certainly you know and look, this is just me kind of spitballing, but it makes a lot more sense for the professional to talk about the cost does.
It my concern is always does that cause a, a rift in that, no, I've just spent 10 minutes showing off my medical knowledge and my bedside manner.I've built your trust and stuff.And then you go, I really like this guy.Then I hit you with a number.You're like, what an asshole.Yeah, but no, no, no.
Because The thing is, if you built trust with them, they won't think you're an asshole, OK?They'll go.OK.He's he's got my best interest at heart.He's not trying to RIP me off.He hasn't handballed me to somebody else's front.Magic.I will leave it at that.I could like I said, that's a that was a super insightful.
I really love that.I look forward to your other sessions and I feel like I have your number.I'm going to get you back on this.No worries.Thank you so much for your time.Thanks, Eva.Before you disappear, I wanted to tell you about my weekly newsletter.
I speak to so many interesting people and learn so many new things while making the clinical podcast.So I thought I'd grant a little summary each week of the stuff that stood out for me.We call it the Vet Vault 321 and it consists of three clinical pearls.These are three things that I've taken away from making the clinical podcast episodes, my light bulb moments.
Two other things.These could be quotes, links, movies, books, a podcast highlight, maybe even from my own podcast.Anything that I've come across outside of clinical vetting that I think that you might find interesting.And then one thing to think about, which is usually something that I'm pondering this week and that I'd like you to ponder with me.
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Dr. Paul Harrison