Sept. 18, 2024

#129: Our Veterinary Report Card: Too Many Hats, Too Little Connection, And A Couple Of Blind Spots. With Rhonda Andrews

#129: Our Veterinary Report Card: Too Many Hats, Too Little Connection, And A Couple Of Blind Spots. With Rhonda Andrews

Psychologist Rhonda Andrews shares insights on improving workplace culture, leadership, and mental health in the veterinary profession. Reflecting on her years working with veterinary teams, she highlights the profession’s strengths, such as innovation, compassion-driven problem-solving, and a willingness to learn. She also addresses challenges like transitioning from small family-owned practices to larger corporate structures, managing human interactions alongside clinical duties, and mitigating risks related to governance and staff wellbeing. The discussion delves into actionable solutions, including enhancing communication, delegating tasks effectively, fostering trusted networks, and creating tailored workplace cultures. Practical examples illustrate how addressing these challenges can reduce burnout, increase team cohesion, and improve outcomes for both clients and veterinary professionals.

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Season 1

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Topics and Time Stamps

07:35 The Role of Compassion and Innovation

12:08 Leadership and Management in Veterinary Practices

17:55 Addressing Risks and Governance

24:51 The Importance of Communication and Training

43:23 Implementing Change in Veterinary Practices

44:04 The Role of Coaching and Mentoring

44:56 Different Models of External Support

46:27 Cross-Industry Learning and Its Benefits

56:06 Delegation and Managing Multiple Roles

01:00:31 The Importance of Trusted Networks

01:09:15 Balancing Client Relationships and Clinical Work

01:17:13 Innovative Solutions for Veterinary Practices

01:23:55 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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“Building Resilient Veterinary Teams: Strategies for Success”

Resilience is a cornerstone of thriving veterinary teams, particularly in an industry known for its emotional and operational challenges. The following strategies aim to help veterinary practices foster resilience, improve workplace culture, and support team members in their professional and personal growth.

  1. Recognize and Leverage Team Strengths
  • Conduct regular team assessments to identify individual and collective strengths within the practice.
  • Assign roles and responsibilities based on each team member’s unique skills, such as delegating client-facing duties to those who excel in communication.
  • Celebrate successes and acknowledge contributions to reinforce a sense of value and purpose.
  1. Promote Open Communication and Psychological Safety
  • Encourage a culture of open dialogue where team members feel safe to express concerns without fear of judgment or retribution.
  • Implement regular check-ins or feedback sessions to provide opportunities for staff to voice issues and share ideas.
  • Provide training in effective communication techniques to improve interpersonal relationships and conflict resolution.
  1. Provide Training in Emotional and Psychological Support
  • Equip team members with psychological first aid training to help them navigate workplace stress and support their peers effectively.
  • Offer workshops on managing difficult clients and handling emotionally charged situations.
  • Normalize conversations about mental health and encourage seeking help when needed.
  1. Establish Clear Roles and Delegation Practices
  • Avoid overburdening individuals by clearly defining roles and delegating responsibilities strategically.
  • Empower veterinary nurses and support staff to take ownership of client interactions or operational tasks, allowing veterinarians to focus on clinical duties.
  • Create systems to streamline workflow and reduce stress associated with multitasking or role ambiguity.
  1. Foster a Culture of Continuous Learning
  • Encourage team members to participate in professional development, such as attending workshops or pursuing certifications.
  • Create mentorship opportunities within the practice to share knowledge and skills across roles and experience levels.
  • Celebrate curiosity and innovation by supporting research and new approaches to problem-solving.
  1. Build a Strong Support Network
  • Encourage collaboration and mutual support among team members, fostering camaraderie and trust.
  • Facilitate external connections by joining veterinary associations or forming alliances with other practices for shared learning and support.
  • Promote involvement in hobbies or community groups outside of work to help team members recharge and gain perspective.
  1. Prioritize Leadership Development
  • Provide practice owners and managers with leadership training focused on empathy, decision-making, and team dynamics.
  • Lead by example by modeling resilience, adaptability, and accountability.
  • Create opportunities for leaders to mentor and coach team members, building a culture of mutual respect and growth.
  1. Implement Resilience-Building Policies
  • Develop flexible work schedules or wellness programs to prevent burnout.
  • Ensure fair compensation and benefits to reduce financial stress and foster job satisfaction.
  • Create clear policies for managing workplace conflicts or addressing mental health concerns proactively.
  1. Measure and Adapt
  • Regularly assess team morale and resilience through surveys or one-on-one conversations.
  • Adapt strategies based on feedback, recognizing that resilience-building is an ongoing process.
  • Monitor key metrics like staff retention, client satisfaction, and productivity to evaluate the effectiveness of implemented strategies.

By focusing on these strategies, veterinary practices can create an environment where resilience becomes a shared value, enabling teams to navigate challenges effectively and sustain long-term success.

 

“Leadership Development in Veterinary Practices”

Leadership development is a vital component for the sustainability and success of veterinary practices. As practices grow in size and complexity, the need for skilled leadership becomes paramount to ensure cohesive teams, effective operations, and a positive workplace culture. Here’s how veterinary practices can foster leadership development based on insights from the transcript.

  1. Understanding the Importance of Leadership in Veterinary Practices
  • Leadership impacts team morale, productivity, and overall practice success.
  • Strong leaders can navigate challenges such as client aggression, staff burnout, and organizational change.
  • The transition from small, family-run practices to larger, corporate models amplifies the need for professional leadership skills.
  1. Identifying Leadership Potential in Veterinary Teams
  • Look beyond clinical expertise to identify individuals with strong communication and problem-solving skills.
  • Recognize and nurture leadership traits such as empathy, adaptability, and a collaborative mindset.
  • Use team feedback and self-assessment tools to pinpoint staff members ready for leadership roles.
  1. Training Programs for Leadership Development
  • Provide access to formal training programs focused on leadership skills, such as conflict resolution, decision-making, and strategic planning.
  • Offer workshops and seminars tailored to the veterinary field, addressing challenges like client management and team dynamics.
  • Introduce mentoring and coaching programs where experienced leaders guide emerging ones.
  1. Encouraging Continuous Learning for Leaders
  • Emphasize the importance of lifelong learning and professional growth for leaders.
  • Promote participation in external coaching programs, including cross-industry collaborations, to gain fresh perspectives.
  • Encourage reading and self-directed learning in areas like emotional intelligence, change management, and organizational behavior.
  1. Building a Leadership Culture
  • Establish a culture where leadership is seen as a shared responsibility, not limited to owners or managers.
  • Create opportunities for team members to take on leadership tasks, such as managing projects or training new staff.
  • Foster a supportive environment where leadership mistakes are viewed as learning opportunities.
  1. Overcoming Challenges in Leadership Development
  • Address resistance to change by clearly communicating the benefits of strong leadership for individuals and the practice.
  • Combat the “I can figure it out” mentality by promoting collaboration and seeking external expertise when needed.
  • Ensure leadership training is practical and tailored to the realities of veterinary practice, avoiding one-size-fits-all approaches.
  1. Leadership’s Role in Crisis Management
  • Develop leaders who can maintain calm and effective decision-making during crises, such as client aggression or emergencies.
  • Equip leaders to address mental health issues within their teams, ensuring psychological safety and support.
  • Train leaders to identify and mitigate risks proactively, preventing workplace issues from escalating.
  1. Measuring Leadership Effectiveness
  • Regularly evaluate leadership performance through team feedback, productivity metrics, and employee satisfaction surveys.
  • Use metrics like staff retention, client feedback, and financial performance to assess the impact of leadership initiatives.
  • Adapt training and development programs based on the evolving needs of the practice and feedback from team members.
  1. The Benefits of Leadership Development
  • Improved team cohesion and morale as leaders foster a positive and supportive workplace culture.
  • Enhanced client satisfaction due to better team coordination and consistent communication.
  • Reduced burnout and turnover as leaders prioritize staff well-being and professional growth.

By prioritizing leadership development, veterinary practices can create a culture of excellence where team members feel supported and valued. Skilled leaders not only guide teams effectively but also inspire innovation, resilience, and a shared commitment to the practice’s success.

When you see a patient, you do a full clinical examination, right?You start with a complete history and then you check the mucous membranes and you listen to the heart.You feel the abdomen, check the pulses and if you're being thorough, you'll stick your finger up it's butt.This is how you figure out what you need to do for it.
So when the vet profession needs a health check, it's the same.We need to start with a good history and a thorough examination, and someone who has one finger on the pulse and one checking the prostate of a profession is Rhonda Andrews.If you're a long time listener, you'll know Rhonda from previous episodes like episode 47 where we talked about vicarious trauma and again in episode 61 where we discussed grief, which is still one of our favorite episodes to date.
If you're new to Rhonda, I'll introduce you.Rhonda Andrews is the founder, Principal Senior psychologist and Managing Director at Barrington Centre, a leading psychological and consultancy firm with over 30 years of experience.She is highly regarded for her work in crisis management, leadership development, team building and workplace engagement.
Rhonda and her team have developed evidence based strategies to help organizations navigate to complex challenges with a particular focus on mental health and psychological safety in industry such as aged care, hospitality, emergency services, and for the past five years or so, veterinary practices.
Here at the Event Vault, we love Rhonda for her direct no BS style and her practical solutions grounded in a deep understanding of human behavior to improve workplace culture and resilience.And in this episode, she gives us some feedback on our profession.Let's call it a report card.
I'm Ebert Hemstra, and you are listening to The Vet Vault where we do regular health checks on a profession to list the deities and find the therapist to make it better.And in this conversation, we catch up with Rhonda to find out what she's learned about us.That's you in her five years of working within the veterinary landscape.
You'll hear how we compare to other industries, like are we really the unicorns that we think we are with our own special problems?Rhonda points out some commonalities we have with a couple of other industries that might surprise you, and one can learn from them.But we also unpack the actual differences, the things that do make us unique.
We dig into blind spots why our Macgyverism and problem solving capabilities might actually be our Achilles heel.Culture.If the culture is good and the culture is supportive then anything can happen.Shit can happen on a day but people feel others have got their back.
And Rhoda tells us how our leaders can take better care of us, their teams, but also, critically, how to take care of themselves in roles that can be very challenging and very lonely.It's a genuine stress.How do I keep wearing those hats and keep the doors open?
And sometimes they feel like it's just a one way St.Take, take, take, take.Take out.What more do you want from?Me, that's right.How how much more can I give?And you're right, they're they're a silent risk because they're doing it often alone.OK, let's get into it with Rhonda Andrews.
Hello, Rhonda.Yeah, How you going, Hubert?Lovely to have you back.Nice to be back.It's been way too long.It has far too long indeed, and I just feel like time's flipped past, but it fills ages as well.Oh and, and I told you last night that I had such lovely feedback on what about.Serendipitously, the day before we're interviewing again, somebody said oh I just listened to the grief episode and loved it and everybody should listen to it I think.
Well that's good 'cause I've got a follow up with her on a book for it 2 days from now.And isn't that great?You know, what I really like about that is that it's current at any time for people and people can dip in, dip out with what's happening in their lives and what's happening in the practices.
And it's for me it remains relevant.So it's been since that was podcast, I think about two, two to bit years.And when I first met you, when I first interviewed you, you were you had vast experience in many industries and professions doing the work that you do, but you're quite new to the vet world.
So you were just get dipping your toes into supporting vets with psychology and.What would you?How do you describe?What you do?What's your elevator pitch?Yeah, I'm, I'm not good at elevated pictures because it goes on too long.That's OK. 2 words.But I, I think our work is all about how do we improve people's lives, whether that be in work, whether that be personally, because we're not 2 separate people, you know that.
And so whatever your hats are, wherever your roles are, that's what we're on about.OK.But in your business, in the Barrington Center's work, that's often in a work environment, in an industry environment.So what is it about your unique situation that we can improve to make you a happier person in and outside of work?
That's right.Yeah.And, and how do we, how do we get teams and leadership humming so they're much more effective and efficient and that people enjoy what they do and they're working together, genuinely together.
Not just because that's my role or that's what my PD says.It's, it's a genuine, I wanna come to work and I love what I do and I really feel valued.And for me, that cultural piece, you know, we're talking last night of all the different cultures of different places.
And that for me is pivotal.If the culture is good and the culture is supportive and really genuinely there, then anything can happen.Shit can happen on a day but people feel others have got their back.
That's massive.I think we'll dig, we'll dip back into all that because there's a lot of people who don't necessarily always feel that in our profession.Yeah, feel very unsafe.But So what I wanted to ask you what I how I wanted to start this conversation.I heard a quote and I've said it before in the podcast, but I really love it that you can't read the label when you're inside the bottle.
Yeah.And I feel like us in our profession, we are so inside the bottle.We know we have problems, but we can't always read the label properly of what is actually going on and how can we fix it.And I.It's a good I think I haven't.Heard that it's a good I love it.I think I've said it about four times on other episodes right.
And I feel like you came to our profession outside the bottle.You can read the label very nice.And I almost want to get a report card from you.So well, as somebody who has worked with emergency services, with lawyers, with medical, very what medical is.
Education.And then coming to us with a fresh perspective and it's an openness of a well, let's actually figure out what's going on here.What have you learned about our profession?Where are we?Where are we good?And obviously in these specific terms, we're very good at making animals better.
But but where, what are we good at?What are we maybe not so good at it?Should we focus on the problem areas?Where have you gone?OK, here's some serious holes that need to be filled if you guys want to be the profession that you want to be.So can I start with a report card?Because given that I have an educator's hat on, I always like to say let's talk about the strengths first in the sector.
And I'll try and I'll take it too personally.I'll be open to feedback.So for me looking at as a report card, looking at when I entered, it was really probably about five years ago where I was really introduced and immersed in into the veterinary world.
And it was very exciting because what I saw was some really good innovation and some really thinking what I'd call thinking outside the box in the way people were problem solving, the way people were just dealing with day-to-day things.
And that innovation is lacking in a lot of other sectors.And I saw that as one of the most powerful things and part part of that innovation, surprisingly.And some people feel like, well, how are these connected?
But it's compassion because with innovation, there's compassion because if you don't have compassion, you actually can't see alternatives.You, you don't have that sense of impact.You don't have that sense of consequence.
And so therefore, what's interesting when you see people with compassion and they can say, how does this actually affect others or affect X?And doesn't matter if it's animals or humans, they have a greater opportunity and a greater way of looking at innovative ideas.
And so and I hadn't connected the two until I immersed myself into this sector.That's really interesting.I I learned more about compassion a year or so ago.I dug into the difference between empathy and compassion and what you say makes sense because what I and tell me if I if I understood it correctly, but compassion is when you feel empathy, when you see I understand what you're going through and and then switch to and I want to do something about it.
I'm really driven to help with what you're feeling.So what is what you're saying that because we feel that we go, go, I will find a way to address this issue exactly.This solution might not work.So let me find solution.That's right.I think the other thing, the other reason why maybe we are more innovative and it's that nice to hear the positive feedback.
But one thing that is so integral to how we work, do our medical work, our animal fixing work, is that it's not like an medicine, for example, where this is the way that you do it and here's the money and it's a part of the way.
We have to find a way.OK, well, in this clinic, I don't have these tools.I don't have that, but I still need to solve this problem.So let me think out the box.That's what we do 80% of our cases.We have to think outside that box and figure out all the Macgyverism.
Yeah, our young listeners, it makes saddens me to to I led the other day that when somebody used MacGyver as a reference, they were like what?Who is MacGyver?Hopefully all of you listening understand.But we have the MacGyver thing, yes?Figure out.Yes, Yeah.Well, what, you don't have the money for this?But how can I fix it?So maybe that's baked into what we do, how we solve problems.
Exactly so.So innovation is 1.I think the second strength that I see is that there's actually quite a lot of willingness to, you know, it's a similar sort of thing.It's still on the same continuum, Hubert, but it's about people willing to learn from others and a willingness to have continuous learning.
You know, and, and I hear it all the time with vets, with nurses that they've, they're very, and in research, you know, they have that.It's an extension of that problem solving and it's extension of that scientific thinking of why and wanting to understand the why better.
And I mean, it probably comes off a, an A type personality where everyone always wants is, is a huge self critic.So there's the Achilles heel here, but being the self critic, wanting to improve things.So therefore the why is there.But there's a willingness to learn from reading or learning from observing or learning from talking with others.
And that that is something that's lacking in a lot of other industries.And I saw that in spades as a great strength within the veterinary industry.And so the innovation and that continuous learning embedded, it's not like I'll, I've got to do it from my professional development points.
Yeah.It's much more of that's our DNA.Yeah, and, and for me, that's good.And I think the third I'd like because I'm always in threes.So the third strength that I'd like to talk about is, is very much.I'm seeing leadership change within practices and within hospitals and, and it's varied like in any place, you know that you've got the bell curve of good and bad leaders.
But what I was starting to see when I entered into the observing the profession was once again, they were really starting to see the need to develop true leadership, develop those skill sets that don't come from your undergraduate or your postgraduate studies.
You're, you're an expert in your field, but where do you get that management skill from?And there's still a way to go because once again, I'll talk about the, you know, the flip side of that.But that's what I saw as a strength that they were that the profession is identifying how that leadership piece is so critical and particularly in the turmoil of COVID and the just the overlay of all the exceptional and high expectations from customers and clients during COVID and the changing behaviour, very aggressive, very destructive behaviour from people.
Just how that leadership piece was critical.And you can see it's chalk and cheese.You can see the the businesses, the practices that really had their leadership in check and were able to protect the staff and those that were absolutely undone by COVID.
Thank goodness we are.I like that.We want to learn more and then we want to learn about leadership because I could tell you when I entered the profession 27 years ago, that was not a thing and it was atrocious.I think the reason why we had such a high turnover in the profession was that I think it's that the whole structure of the profession has changed so much.
The whole corporalisation, bigger groups.We grew up a little bit.We were very much mum, pups and pups, mum and pop, small family businesses where you know, there were five employees.So you're like a little group and leadership leading big groups wasn't such a problem.
And there was a downside because you had many of those owners who had no idea about any leadership and it just, if you got stuck in one of those clinics, it was terrible.But as we innovating and as we're growing, we're getting bigger.And then we realized, Oh shit, there's a skill that we're actually lacking.
And that is how do we manage this thing that we've created?Now they've got all these people.We should run it like grown up business and not just, not just.And, and I think sometimes that Macgyverism is a downfall because I, I experience it and I see it that people go, I'm smart, I can figure stuff, yes, I'll just, I'll just do it.
Yeah.But the massive blind spots then that we have in stuff that needs to be.Available.That's right.And that's where that blind spot is a mixture of ignorance and arrogance.Mm hmm.And.And very much an arrogance piece of well, I'm, you know, I can tell you my IQ.
Yeah.And so therefore I can fix it rather than saying I need help.Yeah.So let me flip it.OK, let's flip it.Report card.So is it Is it time for the shit sandwich?Here are the good things but.That's right.Don't you?Don't you hate those sentences?Look, I'm really appreciative of this.
And then you wait for that, BUT and then you cop it.So you better take a seat, you better sit down.So I think the flip side of that is I think when we talk about that transition from mum and you know, mum and dad practices into the bigger corporations, I think there's still a long way to go because I think there's still a sense of paradigm and model that try and hanker back to that old practice model and are trying to say, well, we're just bigger.
So all we do is we put it on steroids and we keep doing the same thing.And so that leverage and, and transformation into no, in actual fact, we are an organization now.We have to have various roles, responsibilities and a reporting structure.
That transition is, is still in some businesses that I observe is, has gone into like being frozen, immobilized, impotent, because what happens is they still want that let's all be a family and they're still trying to run it when there's a major number of staff and they haven't quite made that transition.
And so therefore, what happens for the staff, they get, get, get mixed messages, they get contradiction.You know, I really value you, Hubert.You know, we've, we've done this for 20 years together, da, da, da, da.Then all of a sudden they're, they feel like they're being slapped around with a whole thing of how they operate in, in the business and who has that responsibility, who has the decision making.
And so they feel like the rug's been pulled out from under them.And so it's that mixed messaging that's an issue that I see that transition hasn't gone smoothly.And I think there's a there's part of it is because people want to go back to the old.Yeah.Do you feel resistance when you go into these people?
And I, I think I understand it.I have empathy for it.I'm old enough too.As I said too, it was it was almost a good thing about our profession.I for example, I have friends in engineering or construction or grown up businesses.Yes.And then I'd listen to their stories of bureaucracy and red tape and, and the regulations and like, oh, thank God we don't have that stuff because it's, it just gets in the way of what I want to do.
I just want to fix animals.Don't come meet me with all that crap that I have to deal with now.Exactly.Yeah, don't, don't bother me about this.I've got my job to do.I've got my day job.And that's the thing that actually segues nicely into my second point.So that's great.The second point is what concerns me about the sector is they're not, they're not got their eyes open about the risks and there's risks there from a governance perspective, from a, you know, workplace perspective employee, you know all those as you talked about, you know, the red tape, all the regulations, all the legislation and it is overwhelming for a lot of people.
It is.And, and you know, and when they haven't got specialized HR departments or, you know, they're trying to cope with it, it is a lot.And, and there's change, huge change.You know, what does it mean about your legal responsibilities as a director?
Are you open to being sued?And what does that actually mean?And so all that legislation and, and the risks attached to having staff, you know, work cover how to be what I'd call much more proactive.
And So what concerns me is the eyes aren't open for a lot of businesses and they are using a very, what I would call a dangerous modus operandi if that is just in time.And that is, I'll get to it when I when it happens, I'll deal with it when it happens.
And I tell you I'm in the coroner's court, I'm in the courts all the time listening to those owners, those directors when they go.I didn't think that would happen to us.Quick interruption to tell you about what's happening with our subscriber podcasts and then we'll get straight back to Rhonda.
So hopefully by now you're aware that we have a whole separate series of podcasts where our interview specialists about clinical topics to get updates and recaps and everything you need to know to stay up to date and confident with your clinical game.But did you know that each episode also comes with show notes?
That is a summarized document of all of the key points that you need to remember and apply to your next case.The notes all live in one searchable space, and it has become my own personal first point of call resource reference for when I'm on the clinic floor.But what not even our subscribers know is that I am very, very close to launching an AI assistant that has access to all of the show notes that you'll be able to chat to and ask questions about all of the stuff that we've ever covered in any of the podcasts.
That is more than 500 episodes and counting.So, for example, you'll be able to type.Can you tell me what the treatment protocol was for DKA?Or which episodes discuss blood transfusions?Or what was the dose for Prednisolone that Doctor Collins mentioned in the IMHA episode?
And I'll keep to the vet fault AI.We'll pull up all the information that you need with the reference to the episodes in question.This assistant will be free to all of our All In subscribers.And the reason it'll be free is because I'm going to increase the price of our clinical podcast significantly once this launches to cover the cost of the tech involved.
But this increase will only apply to new subscribers who join us after we launch this, which will be within the next month or so.If you are an existing subscriber, the price for your subscription is locked in for as long as you stay signed up.In other words, if you've been on the fence about signing up, get off the fence and join our Red Vault nerds now at the lower pricing, which is 110 U.S. dollars per year, which equates to just over 115 Australian dollars.
Try it out for free for two weeks at vvn.supercast.com.That's VVN for vetvaultnetwork.supercast.com.OK, back to Rhonda.Oh, see, my, my nature is very much that that.
And I think it's a vague thing as well, because life's so busy and you're in all these cases, so you deal with things as it happens.Because even with our patience, if I have to try and think about everything that could possibly go wrong, I'll paralyze myself.So it isn't sort of in our nature to go and then we're busy.
I think the, the limitation and what scares me about what you're saying and what makes me glad that I don't own a business anymore is the size and the, let's say the finances of our business.The model of of many of our businesses is that unless you are a big company who has an HR department and back end, it's, it's quite tricky and financially quite a burden to then have to pay for, HI pay this stuff for your three staff members in case one of them decides to take you to court or you break some law.
And the next thing you're in major trouble and all you want to do is again, all I want to just have a team to fix animals.So it's a it's a it is scary.Yeah.How do?How do we address it?That's right.But I don't want to frighten.Yeah, I don't want to frighten owners listening to me because for me it's about as long as I've got that awareness and I recognise I've got to be on the front foot rather than waiting for, you know, it to go down.
Then for me there's great camaraderie and, you know, really good connections between businesses that can pull from each other and learn from each other and have that information, that back end information so they don't have to do it alone.For me it's not that, it's, it's not about the understanding of it.
It's about saying I've got a risk.Let's get in front of the curve and make sure it doesn't come and bite us.That for me, it's that blinkered fear of I'll, I'll put, I'll deal with that when it happens and I'll could bring it right back to a very immediate one of often we're getting called in because the risks are that an individual staff member, whoever it might be in the professional or, or certainly in the administration, they are very much upset, distressed by what might be happening in the workplace.
They feel they're not being heard.And then all of a sudden that flips around to not a complaint.They that, then they internalise that.And often that then becomes maybe an issue of attempted suicide.So all of a sudden the person internalises that distress and we're called in at that point and they've got no framework in place to deal with it.
And so all they're doing is throwing all these resources at it in a high risk, very impulsive situation.And and the learning is what needs to happen is from that is what could we have had at the front end that could have circumvented this?
And it seems a Longbow between complaints at work and then someone attempting suicide.But that is frequent.I see that day I.See in the vet professional.Yeah, no, just about the vet profession.I see that weekly.So what can we put at the front end?
Like what what, what should it look?Let's say I'm not a corporate group with my own HI department.I'm a my small business with my three vets and seven nurses.How do I what do I put at the front end?Yeah.And for me, the front end is actually giving people the training of how they actually operate within the business, how they operate as individuals.
So the type of training I'm I'm talking about here is communication, because what's been what lacks in in that example I just gave is the individual says I'm not being heard.I I'm, I'm not, they're not hearing that this is a real issue for me.
And so once again, very type A personalities feeling like I'm not good enough, I'm not valued.That's when it turns into a self-destructive reaction.And so going back to what you asked you, but it is that proactive stuff.
It is that training.You know, for us, it's around the psychological first aid.For us, it's around having a look at things that are making sure there's good communication and genuine communication, not just Oh yeah, we tick a box.
Because that's the cynic in me.And again, that's looking at, at other big professions and speaking to people who go, so for example, people who work on the big minds and stuff they have.And it's more physical safety stuff than that.But, but it becomes such box ticking that it actually pisses everybody in the job of just just interferes with my life.
I freaking hate this.I don't, doesn't make me feel protected.It makes me annoyed because if I don't take the boxes, then the company's not protected.So how do we change that into a, this is a genuine benefit for the, for you as a leader and for your team and you're gonna have a better workplace.Is it just an attitude of of being more open to it?
Yeah.And I think, I think it's more, and it's a good point because it does piss people off if they feel like, well, all you're doing is just covering us, covering exercise.And I think the way to get around that is really simple.Everyone does the training.Doesn't matter if you're the owner or if you're in customer service, Everyone does the training and it's a team thing and that can be done online.
So it doesn't have to be onerous, but it's saying I'm no different from you and that we all need to learn it and what's important.And you know, there's training and there's training.So let's get it right here that the training I'm talking about is, isn't just, oh, here's the theory.
It's how do I put that into practice?And there's a scorecard on putting it into practice.So there's feedback which vets, the vet industry loves.And so as long as we build that into it, then they're actually getting the feedback.
They're getting the feedback because that's changing the culture and everyone has ownership of that culture.So I'm not going to just say, oh, you're the owner, that's your responsibility or you're the practice manager, that's your responsibility.It's like we all have equal ownership to get this right.
I think that's an important message for people to hear, people listening to this who are not owners and managerial teams.That's stuff that your boss is trying to get you to do.And I'm guilty of that as well as an employee because life's busy.You know, there's work and I just want to rock up and do my vet work and not have to worry about all the other stuff.
But there's, there's a good reason for it and it's not.I think maybe the temptation is if I'm OK now, I'm psychologically OK, I don't have a problem.So I got, I suppose it's time for this crap.We're just gonna go camping.But there's other people in the team who this really might matter for matter too.
And and then maybe a shift of going, I'm not doing this for myself.I'm doing it for everybody in the team, also for my future self, because I might be fine today, but three years later I might not be so fine.And then maybe that training that we did when I didn't feel like going through that day on a Saturday is gonna be massively useful.
Exactly.And I think you're so right there because what we want to get away from is the roller coaster.We want to get out of this.Your business.Businesses are a roller coaster in themselves.You have peaks, troughs, peaks, troughs.And what we don't want to have is mirroring that pattern with the way in which the staff feel because otherwise what happens is it all then escalates.
The highs become higher, the lows become lower and it becomes very extreme.And that's where people go in to burn out.So what it is, I call it the drip feed.It's a great thing.You just keep on adding overtime, little bits and exactly what you just said then, Hubert, I'm doing it not just for me and I don't maybe I don't feel like it right now, but somewhere I'm going to pull on this.
But also I'm in here as part of the team.And so it's shifting that mentality, shifting the thinking from I'm just here to do my job and go home again to here we are all working together and how can the we rather than the I feel better about stuff?
That's insightful.And again, I'm, I'm guilty of it, you know, I'm sitting here thinking when you mentioned suicide is the worst possible outcome of not doing this properly.And I want to ask about less extreme risks that we might be blind to.But every time there's a victory suicide, and I wrote about this the other day, it annoys me because we all jump up and down and we get very upset.
But then what are you doing about it?What are we doing as individuals to stop that?To say not one more vet, but I can't be asked to do that 'cause that works offering because it's not the problem for me.And so maybe that ownership saying, well, this is our problem and if there's solutions, I might not like all of it, but do something about.
It, yeah.And I think it's about connection.It's got to be what, you know, why am I going to do it For me?It's about what why does it matter?And I think it's a two way thing that I'm only going to feel that it matters if there's a connection between whatever is being asked or offered and I can actually see a tangible benefit.
It's got to be seen, it's got to be visible.It's not, you know, you go back to the thing we spoke about just a moment ago, the tick the box.It's actually, I've got to touch it, feel it, taste it, see it in order for, for me to invest my time into it.
And I think often we can't see that, you know, and when I'm talking about psychological first aid, well, people are going to say to me, well, well, So what I've done mental first aid, well, that's totally different, you know, and, and that they feel like ticking a box.Psychological first aid is about how do you look after yourself and then how can you help others, but not being a professional trying to look after others.
And so you, that is that for me is I think it's about people understanding why does it matter?And then what am I going to see change?Yeah, I hope everybody's listening and taking this on board.
So are there are there risks that we are blind to because of the way that our profession has, you know, small business and even in terms of laws and legalities in Australia that I know things have changed recently that this does become a legal responsibility of the business.What, what?Why do you find the major blind spots that you encounter?
So I think there's that governance piece, but I think also blind spots are around what we're just talking about.Blind spots of everyone's OK, It's humming, OK, you know, not good, but it's OK.And so therefore we'll just keep doing what we with the same old, same old.
And that for me is a blind spot when people aren't saying, let's do a bit of a litmus test.Let's just check in.Let's see how people are, you know, why is XA bit more agitated?Why is Billy coming in and, you know, saying something that's quite unusual or or not off the cuff.
And so for me, it's, it's often the risk is around culture where that there's blind spots for people around, how do you keep developing that culture and how do you have it that there is improvement in how people are rather than just saying, look, we're OK, and we'll just make sure we continue being like that rather than saying, hey, how do we keep building on this?
Because people want to feel valued.People want to feel that they're making a difference.And if they feel their, their thoughts or their ideas are just going into a black hole or they feel they have no influence, then for them it's like, well, what's what's my purpose?
You know, I've got my purpose professionally, but what's my purpose as a team member?And, and I think we often, and that's the risk that I see.We're focused so much on the professional skills and, and to be honest, every business has to focus on that because that's where the dollars come in.
You know, that's the money earner, but we've also got to protect those money earners and the people supporting those.So we just can't keep burning at both ends and then say, Oh well, they're done and replace them because that, of course, as we know, attrition absenteeism is a huge cost to any business.
So I'll give you 2 arguments, not against it to to excuses that I that I feel is out there and I see it in conversation.It's overwhelming.I'm an owner, I recognise this is important, but I've just keeping my own head above water, just with the clinical stuff, making sure I've got a rust to fill and clients are happy and fun, checking the finances and beyond that I don't have the capacity to focus on this.
And that's and I hear that argument all the time and.Then the other one is more of an attitude and I'll come back to the solution to the first, like how do we The other one is is sometimes, and I feel like it's more of a generational thing, but it's it's millennials so soft and they need to be nammy pammied and wrapped in cardinal and their emotional needs.
They need to be met and.Always want feedback.Show up to work, Yeah.Do your shit.In my day, yeah.We didn't have all this crap, Yeah.And, and look to the both of those, I hear them frequently as well.And I think they're, you know, they're genuine, you know, And so we can't ignore them.
Otherwise we're doing, yeah.We're we're.We're we're doing what we're just talking about ourselves.So getting to the first one about the time one very legitimate, I mean, I see owners just feeling like they've got there, as you said, just just they head above water and then they drown and they just feel like they're in that perpetual cycle and it just doesn't.
It's like the lemmings at the Cliff doesn't take much for them to feel like they've flipped over.And that's that whole thing about feeling like I'm wearing so many hats, you know, that I've got, you know, don't, for Christ's sake, don't ask me to do another thing.I've got payroll, I've got work cover.
I've got all these new legislations coming in.I've got complaints, you know, customer complaints.I've got whinging staff.I've got a balance of books.The cost of everything is rising.And they do.And it's a genuine stress.And you know, how do I keep wearing those hats and keep the business, keep the doors open?
And take care of myself because that's a big group of people, people who I feel get ignored almost in not by yourself, but often by the it's by the employed vets and nurses.And that is they, there's a lot of finger pointing towards the bosses, but I know a lot of bosses they're not sleeping.
Yeah.They are very much at risk as well, Yeah, they own psychological saves you because they've got your problems and their problems that they have to.And you're quite right, sometimes they feel like it's just a one way St.Take, take, take.Take, take.What more do you want from?Me.That's right.How?How much more can I give?
And you're right.They're, they're a silent risk because they're doing it often alone.And they've got no one who's going to.No one's interested.A lot of people aren't interested in what your gripes are.Yeah.So going back to that time piece and certainly about feeling overwhelmed and it's a genuine issue and understand that is if I go into any small businesses, doesn't matter what the industry, I could write the script of just where those pressure points are.
And we saw in COVID how very susceptible business is to either that being a deal breaker or just, you know, bringing businesses under.And so I think for me, certainly what I see where people actually turn that around is to say I can't do it all.
And it sounds tripe.And it sounds like, oh, yeah, fine, Rhonda.It's easily said, but it's a genuine thing of saying I can't keep on doing the same thing because I've just run out of time or I've run out of emotional space.
I've run out of brain power to do this.So it's actually reinventing those partnerships.It's reinventing the way the business operates and it can be really small tweaking to make a difference.
So it's actually looking at the stuff, however small or big the business is the practice and it's saying, okay, where are our skills not and are our professional skills?Where's our talent as a business and who's got the talent that I can actually delegate to.
And it might be small, but it might be customer complaints goes to one person.It might be looking at what training there's out there for staff to do.It could be, you know, let's get a, an assessment on what are the rate changes.
You know, what is our lease of our building comparable to others or are we being ripped off?So it can be as as targeted as that that they're looking at.But it's saying, firstly, I can't keep doing all of this.
And so it's then saying, where are the skill sets within the team, research, problem solving, willingness to explore and investigate things.A person who has great deal of order and really wants to systematize things and start to give them small bits of other jobs that are keeping you up at night and saying, and it's not about because I can hear it already ready for my owners.
They go, but they'll want more money.And it's about saying this is about culture, if we're going to thrive and if we're going to actually build our business.Now the business, not just you know, who is the owner us, then this is our contribution.
So it's culturally based outcomes that for me, if you're just saying or do this or do that or do the other people are going to get pissed off and say, oh shit, that's your job.If you're actually saying what's our purpose?
What's our goal as a team?They've got to buy into that.And I don't mean financially, I mean psychologically, mentally, buy into that.And they genuinely feel we're all working to the same goal.
Because if we don't have the same goal, you're always going to get infighting, tension and disappointment.But they're still going to have to pay them for that time.Don't expect free labour.Do you mean is that that's not what you're saying?
You're not saying people should put their hand up to do that work for free.In addition to the, the, the clinical shifts, when this works in other businesses, people do get compensated for.It's like I'm going to take on psychological safety or something.I, I'm an employee.
I'm, I'm an employed nurse at the practice, but I I, I'm passionate about that and, and the boss doesn't have the mental capacity.How do you make that happen?Is that OK?In addition to your clinical shift 6 hours a week?I'll pay you for investigating this and rolling it out.
Yes, I've seen it happen in a couple of ways. 1 is what they've done is they've reduced the shift, the a hands on shift.And so there's a part of that becomes their research.And once they've done the research they they can then go back into all their contact hours.
The other is they do say, OK, here's a budget and it's small.Yeah, it's only might be only a few hours, but here's the budget for you to go out, investigate and implement.OK.And then there are others where it's a a shared, you know, if you can put in an an extra hour, then this is what I'm willing as the owner to put in to investing into US doing that training.
And here's, you know, so many $100 per head to do that.So it becomes a a duel.You do it in your time, but I'm willing to put the money in for this training.OK.So you've worked in practices where you've been part of or helped with this, this change the last five years.
Can you think of any pitfalls, anything that people have done or not done that makes it not work well or or not implement as well?And you can say, no, you can't.I'm, I'm just curious, what if somebody's listening to this and going, yes, what do you avoid?
What if people try That didn't work.Yeah, I think The thing is when they try and hurry it, when they go, Oh yeah, let's do that tomorrow.Let's let's put it into place.And then there's nothing.There's no structure in place for longevity.And it falls over.
Everyone goes, oh, there's just another great idea that's gone down the drain, you know.And so they get very despondent.They go, why bother?And they tune out because they feel like, well, it's a one hit wonder, you know, great lot of air doesn't go anywhere.So that's a pitfall.
When people, they come back from a conference and they go, hey, here's an idea.Bang, they try and put it in place and they're not even looking at what the current culture is or how people are.And they feel like they can just drop out an atomic bomb in there and feel like that's going to be the panacea, that's going to be the fixer.
So for me, it's both having the structure in place and the the process and people in place that can continue the activities that are of the change.And the second is, is it right?And is the business ready right now?
Because if you and try and put it at the wrong time, it backfires.The other thing I'll comment on, and I'm curious your, your insights, if you've noticed the difference, but there's increasingly coaching programs, mentoring programs for practice owners that you sign up to and you're part of it for a year or two years or something, which I feel like make so much sense because we have a capacity and we have strengths and weaknesses as individuals.
And some people, I know, some practice owners are phenomenal leaders.They seem to just have the skills most of us don't.It's the reality.And again, it's that Macgyverism going well, I'll figure it out because I'm smart, but you don't figure it out.Do you find a difference with the practices you work in, in how good people are at planning and implementing all these new things when they have an outside business helping them run the business?
Yeah.And I think.Sort of thing.Yeah, yeah.And I think that works very well.And I see two different models I see or three actually.I see an external mentor or coach who is another vet or is in understanding of the veterinary industry and that external voice.
This is excellent because then and we've got plenty of very good coaches in Australia where you know there is that good long term relationship to build exactly what I'm just talking about, build that change over time, that transition over time.
I also see another model where it's a collegiate support, so it's either geographically or purely because of interest groups that owners have come together and they form their own.
Like a master mastermind almost to say there's catch up and what are you working on?That's right.And they share those ideas.And so that's a, that's a micro group.And in education, that's a very key model that's used very effectively where principles get together and on a regular basis and, you know, share all the stuff that they wouldn't be sharing elsewhere.
So it becomes a very open and trusting working relationship.So it's not a competitive thing.It's very collaborative and collegiate.And the third is, which is very new to the veterinary industry and from some listeners will go, oh, how can this work?
But it's cross functional and it's cross specialist.And so the coach comes from a totally different industry.And So what you're getting is not only an external coach, but you're getting someone who is not part of the industry.
So therefore is pluses and minuses to that.But the plus is they are not making assumptions and so therefore they challenge everything.So it's only going to work for people who are willing to be upfront to have quite a robust coach who is going to really want to want them as the coachee to really check is am I only doing this because this is what I've done for so long and does it actually benefit me?
That requires a very open mind, I think because I, I can speak from personal experience, I've done quite a few courses and coaching things for the for the podcast.It's completely separate.And by virtue of that, the coaches have have nothing to do with the vet profession.And then they want to talk about stuff and, and my default is immunity.
Yeah, but you don't understand.You don't get my profession.You don't get whoever.And there's some truth in that.Like there are some things where they they don't understand what it's not like another business, but it there's also probably much more commonality.Exactly.Then we then we give credit like I think in in our profession and maybe all professions are like this.
We think that we are unique in our problems and challenges.I don't know is that did you wanna comment on?That yes and and I hear, I do hear that all the time.Hence the reason when I first started in the industry, I immersed myself very quickly.You know, I come with a psychologist hat, but I needed to understand the nuances of the industry.
Otherwise, you do look like, well, what what right, what, what credibility?You don't get it.Do you have, However, there is a flip side to that because I, I experimented with this some years ago and that was that I tried this whole concept of cross industry learning between the judiciary in Australia with the medical profession.
OK.And so I got surgeons and, and, and the, the commonality was they were both building new premises, new venues for their, for their big organisations.And so that was the commonality.
That was the driver.So lawyers and doctors, basically.Lawyers and doctors.And so they both had an outcome that was bricks and mortar.But what it meant was I utilize the learnings across each group.
So some were surgeons, some were architects, some were the COOSA range of people within each of the businesses.They actually were coached by the opposite industry of the same hat.
So therefore, let's say the surgeon was meeting with the judge.And So what happened the building, this is the the fantastic thing about it, the building became really incidental.So hang on, I want to pause.
I just want to understand.So this was these were clients of yours and you said I think Doctor X you should.No, no, no, judge.So.So what happened was I was dealing with the two different organisations.Yeah.And I could see both of them were struggling with the same or, or really had the same challenges, work challenges, staff challenges.
Yeah, all the things that we've just been talking about.And both of them I knew had a common goal.And so they a bit like the vets.If I'd introduced the idea, hey, you as a surgeon to talk to a judge, they go, what what are you expecting me to do that for?
I have no idea what happens to me.So I I utilize the common goal as the driver to get them together.That was my driver and my my common piece.What they got out of it was me what yours, what you're dealing with because they had, they had these.
So then I matched them up.I matched the surgeon up with a judge.I matched, you know, the COO up with admin.And what they found in their discussions was, yeah, you might have that.I that makes sense to me.I've got the same issue, slightly different party dress, but the theme is the same.
And, and the great thing about this, they actually found the commonality of the themes.And so the whole point of was they started exactly where you were.You wouldn't understand what it's like to be in court.You wouldn't understand what it's like to be in theater.You wouldn't understand what it's like to have like lack of supplies.
You wouldn't understand what it's like to have witnesses that have meltdowns in the courtroom.But when they overcame those I'm unique, they saw they opened up to the commonality of the themes and the richness of the learning.
They actually continued their coaching together or mentoring each other each other for two years.Really, they took that initiative and they met every alternate month for two years.Who would you pair the veteran profession up with?
Who would be our blind date?Well, in actual fact it has already occurred in the UK and that was with the judiciary.So to me, that feels very different.I'm doing exactly what you said.I'm like very different.Everybody hates lawyers and everybody loves us.
What we're talking about, there's nothing in common with them.Money grab?Oh hang on, that's what people accuse ourselves money grabbing.It's the judiciary, not the legal profession.Oh, sorry.So the judiciary is, you're talking about your judges.So they are coming with very much that community.
Their whole purpose is to serve the community.So too is the veterinary.They're altruistic.So too are the veterinary industry.They are very much type A people.They, the, the commonality is, is quite profound.And so yes, take away the lawyers, put them out there, it's, it's the judiciary.
So for them, they are serving the public and what is the outcome?What's the outcome to protect society?What is the outcome to protect the, the welfare?And that's exactly what the the veterinary profession is on about.
And so therefore, when you start to drill down, there are are the issues around budgets, there are the issues around limited resources, they're not, you know, there are the issues around how do they deal with such a range of clientele, How do they deal with unrealistic expectations, How do they deal with how their staff are treated?
How do they deal with abuse?How do they deal with suppliers who are late, delayed and legislation and all the external things that are outside their control?There is so much commonality, but there's enough difference to take both professions out of their own boxes to say, hey, in natural fact we could do the same sort of thing.
And so they there's alert, there's a cross learning.So have you got networks in both?Can you set us up if we have any owners listening to the any owners listening to this going?I would love to chat to a judge.Do you know what?It's a passion of mine.It's been burning there since I since I was in the UK before COVID in 2019.
I was on that last bloody plane coming back into Australia before the borders shut 2020 and I thought, I'm going to make sure that gets up in Australia.That's cool because I, I see some real merit because it takes a specific, you know, psychology is the same.
We can get so blinkered to.Inside the bottle to like I said.Into inside the bottle and that's not saying that we don't have enough innovation because I have spoken about innovation, but if we're really true to ourselves and and you know, things like we're doing with the executive consequence management program is bringing multiple professions together to learn from each other.
That for me, I guess that's my sweet spot of what I would really like to see and my drive.I'd really like to see us learn cross professions because there's so much commonality but healthy differences that we can adapt and take that into our own environment.
So you have moved between a bunch of these different worlds as the neutral party and seeing how people do things.Are there problems that you see that us you see us struggling with in our vet profession that other professions have solved or are solving that you'd look at and go, well, why don't you guys just do that?
Have you learned anything like that?Yeah, I think certainly, and we've touched a bit on it already, but I certainly see one of the real struggles still is in that delegation piece.Isn't that when I've got multiple hats?
How am I actually going to, You know, you hear it and it's sort of wanky words, uplifting, upskilling the staff.But really what it is, is how we're going to get our shit together as a collective rather than me.Feeling is always on my shoulders.
And for me, that's around that, that cultural piece, but then everything that sits around it and I've got to be willing to let go of things.And it does become a control issue.And we all do it in different ways.And it's like, and you hear it, I can't because.
And so it's about what am I willing to let go of?You may not do it exactly the same way as I do, but am I going to focus on how you did it or the outcome?And that's the change.And so it's when I've got multiple hats, when I'm, when I'm awake at 3:00 AM in the morning and I've got that list that I keep going around and around in my head and I can't get to sleep.
It's like, what can I let go of?And it may not be delegation.You're actually just saying I've got to park it.You know, I can't, I can't deal with it because that's about our control.That's, that's that, that when we feel overwhelmed, it the inverse happens.
We have to have more control.And so that punishes us.So for me, it's wearing those multiple hats that's sort of concurrent.And, and particularly when there's things that are happening over a long period.So, you know, let's say the vets who are involved right now with the avian flu thing, but that's going to go for months.
And it's not just euthanizing the the chooks.You know, it's about what happens for those farmers.I come from Victoria.A lot of those vets have very close relationships with those Western district farmers who think their business just died overnight.
And that affects the vets.So, you know, here's the knock on effect, knock on effect in relationships, knock on effect in business.And so that has a long term effect, you know, droughts, fires, they all have long term events on vet practices.
And it's in that piece how do they actually manage what they have control over and what they don't and what they can delegate.And so for me it's that concurrent and long term dealing with change.So that's one.
How do you get better at that?Because now I'm doing the same thing that I I feel like vets are worse at it, but maybe not.But it's that a type personality and and by virtue of our job, we are the problem solvers.Yes.And I've, I've had in one conversation we had about veteran suicide, somebody who had a suicide attempt said that was his Achilles heel because I'm the problem solver.
And then at some point, as you say, we want more control, things get more stressful.So we're like, well, I've got to fix this.I've got to fix.How do we get better at saying I can't fix it without getting to the crisis point where you actually can't do it.So when somebody has to take over before things, the wheels fall of.Completes and that's a really good point because you are by nature excellent problem solver and in the assessments that I do with people in the burnout programs and also looking at work profiles, what I see is your excellent problem solvers and you and that's rewarded and that is reinforced by the nature of the business in the practice.
You know, customers come, they want solutions, they want immediate solutions, they want things to get better, they want you to be a fixer.And so you do get rewarded a financially and verbally.Otherwise you do try and delegate to offload something and then you go.
I could have done that better.Yeah, yes.But I think getting back to your point though of that, that thing of that problem solving and that fixing is innate into it and that's what people are attracted to within the profession.
And and So what what needs to happen is that for me it's two things, connection and an acknowledgement.And the connection is firstly, I've got to have a damn good network, a trusted network.
And I see too many vets in isolation.They've got lots of people around them.They're still meeting up with their year of uni people every year, you know, the annual reunion, you know, And so they lots around.
But as a trusted network, they're isolated.That for me is the first thing that needs to change, even if there's only one person in that trusted network.And that then allows the person, the owner or whoever it might be, like that person who said suicide was the the option at that point is to then say, I actually can't keep doing this and know they've got someone they can reach out to.
That then they're not going to feel like is going to be judged or for themselves, feel like they've failed because it's a failure that stops people from talking.Well, because they they're too embarrassed to admit that they're failing, yeah.
OK, shit, I'm their owner.I'm I'm the problem solver.I've been doing this for 20-30 years, 40 years.You know why?Now I'm not going to tell someone that I'm not not dealing with it or I can't cope.So it's getting that trusted network 1st and then knowing that you can put your guard down to that individual or those individuals to say I'm I'm done.
So where do you find that sort of network?Where do people in the vet profession or other professions find that?Yeah, it's interesting.Most vets have it with other vets.Yeah, it's good or bad.I I think it's, it's got pluses and minuses.It's and sometimes I feel it's quite incestuous.
The medical profession's the same.Yeah, you know, it's a, it's a little closed, closed group.My my kids accuse me of this.They're like when we talk about friends and stuff, they go all their friends are just vets.No, they were.Yeah.And.That makes sense.
You know, they, they gravitate because others get it.So there's, there's that commonality.I'm really, I made a, a really big decision with myself when I moved into psychology and I saw in education, I remember going home the first day and saying I've got more problems inside their own places than they are with their clients.
And, and at that point I said, I am never going to just be with psychologists.And so I really associate with other psychologists at a social level.I want to get out outside that profession because I love to hear about what engineering's doing, what you know, what medicos are doing, what everyone is doing, whatever their jobs, journalists, you know, artists, etcetera.
And so for me, you know, going back to your comments, seriously, how do you get that network?I for me, it's about that socializing outside, just that, just your own profession or just the immediacy.
I mean, I don't want to discount having people who are vets supporting vets because I see plenty of very healthy supports which are brilliant.All I'm saying is have more than one option and you know, interest groups.
So I see a lot of vets who have actually got involved in theatre and got involved in public speaking, got involved in, you know, it can be anything, you know, as you said, bushwalking, hiking, photography, whatever it means.And I know they're time poor, but when they actually get outside the work and can actually be with others horse riding, you know, particularly, they then actually find some other.
Not animal related 'cause then people will ask you animal related questions about the horses and then be back to work again.Yeah, do about this.How's this hoof looking?And.It's it's like I made the deal with myself when I used to go in taxis and they'd go at late at night when they were picking me up from the building.
Oh, what do you do?I'm a psychologist.Oh well, I was a slow learner after.After having that twice I'd then say I've just cleaned the place.There'd be no conversation after that.Awesome.
I think we should set up networks, Rhonda.Yeah, should use your network to set up groups like this for Yeah.I agree because you know when, if we look at the veterinary industry, loves statistics and likes empirical evidence, Yeah.And scientists.
Exactly.It's virtually science, Rhonda.Exactly, and the the stats are there, the proof is there that the true social connection is the most important thing.And now I'm talking about trusted networks, not or how many mates have I got?
It's who is my confidant.The social connection and trusted connection is the greatest antidote.And if I look at the stats and look at post traumatic stress and then look at suicide as we are part of working with Stanford University in California and it shows that the reduction of risk to post traumatic stress and reduction of risk to attempted suicide decreases by 80% with someone who tells me that they've got true trusted social networks, 80%.
Wow, it is so powerful.So if anyone listening today, if they take one thing away, it's that link is not just Oh yeah, I'll get round to it.That link is your lifeline I think.There'd be lots of people listening, like here's a question to ask yourself that I'm asking myself now who would I call when I'm in the real dark spot?
Who am I going to call?If the answer is I don't really know, then maybe you need to do something about it.Yeah, Yeah, exactly.And when you're in that space, it's, it's very lonely and it's very panicky and it's about that person needs to be able to come to mind immediately.
And I can never say that I've experienced that.The closest I came was during COVID and I had to be taken by ambulance to hospital because I had a, and I don't know the correct terms, but basically because of all the coughing with COVID, everything swelled and I couldn't breathe.
And so that to shove a pipe down in the throat and all of that stuff.And I was in a dark room and you know, COVID and everything.And I, they had probably the biggest panic attack that I've ever had.And at that point I thought, well, I might die.
And you know, it's a bizarre because your mind is actually going, even though you're panicking, your mind is going very slowly.Like time just slows down.And it's like all my life was going ahead of me.And I was actually thinking, shit, is this the body shutting down?
And I just thought, who is it I would call right now?I had no bloody mobile, you know, and shoves and tubes shoved down my throat.Physically, there's no way I could do it.But it was just that.Who would I reach out to right now?
And it was a really powerful moment.And did you have the answer?Absolutely, Absolutely.Yeah.And that for me, calmed me, even though the bizarre thing was I couldn't talk to them, but I knew I could there.
Yeah, I, I, I knew I had them in my mind.That was the most important thing.So it was quite a an experience I've never had in my life before and never had again.Wow, I'm completely lost.
That's such a powerful image to think about.So the way are we?What have we not spoken about?Oh, I have.I have another question completely.Please left turn now.So are there things because we like to like I said, we said earlier in the conversation that we like to think that we're unique and we have our unique problems.
Are there unique problems to us?OK.Have you looked at things and go, yeah, you guys are right, this is not come across this in other professions.It's a good question, I think.I think the uniqueness is the assumptions that customers have on who you are.
And what I mean by that is your customers come both as people and primarily they're coming because of their animal.But they blur those two expectations.And I see it all the time when I'm working in vet hospitals and working with teams in training that what I hear is that dual necessity to both put on the work hat, the professional hat and deal with the animal and utilize.
Your the thing I'm qualified for.Skills and what you're qualified for.But often the overriding stressor and overriding demand is managing the human being.And that for me, the medical profession could say, well, that's like treating kids and parents, but that's on the same continuum for me.
The veterinary industry is not like that, that people say this is my dog or this is my cow, but their demand is actually about how you treat me.And so we're seeing that amplified with mental health issues.
You know, various vet practices are dealing with serious mental health issues of customers and, and so their expectations, their language, their communication is pretty bizarre and, and threatening.
And we're now doing training around not just abusive customers, we're actually doing training around mental health issues of customers, how to deal with schizophrenics, how to deal with people who are really OCD, you know?
If you ask most of it's in a bad and they say they're all crazy.So I think I think that duality is unique to the industry.Yeah.So is that the solution?Is that the because, because you're right, for a lot of vets who really about 20 years into the profession and really still love their job, they've actually flipped it and have recognized that I'm here to I'm here for the people.
The commonality, the thing that we do together is work on your dog.But I, my job is actually relationships with people and they find joy in that and that sustains them.And I find often, often the vets who go, I don't want that.I just wanna work with the animals.They're the ones who really struggle.
Yeah.And I see that all the time, Yeah, where they're saying I don't wanna deal with the person.And, and, and actual fact, one of the positives of COVID was the customers had to state that.For lots, for lots of for lots of us.Loved that, Yeah.Yeah, so the the the owners were out in the car park.
You RIP up the, the animals were coming in and, and I know I have not just anecdotal, but measurable difference in people's stress levels because the owners were all sitting in their cars and they thought that was great.They could control them.
So that for me and, and, and there are others, as you said, really love that relationship.And I saw a lot of vet practices extend that because what they did was they moved from being inside to being outside.So they would come and treat the animal outside in the car and so they could then control the moving in and out with the animal rather than being with the owner all the time.
So we've got a disparity here.We've got some vets who really love that relationship and others who hate it.What I have seen work really well and the dental profession do it.Well, shove something up the client's mouth so they can't speak.It's like, Jesus, I don't want to talk to them, so they just put as much in there as possible.
That's what that little suction.Actually, just to shut you up.But what I see some practices doing now, which is very clever is actually having the nurse, the vet nurse have the primary relationship with the owners.
And so they are, if you like upbuilding and, and increasing the visibility of the nurse in that relationship building.And so there's a transition, the vet moves out and the vet nurse is actually then doing the, the bookends, the, the, the introduction of, well, what's happening to the dispensing and just looking at what things to look out for and, and therefore what's going to be the next follow up specialist Vets do that very well.
They really do that well, you know, and I can speak from personal experience of it, they do it and or they use some of the trainee vets.So you know, those who are coming through still undergraduates and maybe in the specialising part they have it that they're taking all the details and documentation at the beginning.
The vet comes in, does the intervention and then the the vet nurse or the undergraduate then does the wrap up.And so the total time of the vet's engagement is about 1/3.So the solution is maybe because I'm for a long time, I thought that maybe the solution is to acknowledge that that is the reality of the situation.
We're dealing with people and upskill if it's not natural to you to be.I always often thought that that would that's how you solve it.Just get better at it.But is the solution maybe to recognize yes, I'm one of those people who thrives on that.So put yourself in the role where you the face, either the the personality or acknowledge to say it's not my thing.
We're having an interview soon on neurodivergence in our profession, 'cause there's so many.So we have have that yeah, where it's really a high friction for them.It's to say, well, maybe I find the systems to take me.And again, it comes back to that we forgot to have wear all the hats.I I need to be the clinician as well as the public face.
I need to be the the person in the spotlight.Yeah.And say, well, maybe you shouldn't be in this.Yeah, you're a fantastic vet, but employ somebody, Yeah, who loves.People.Exactly.I agree.Yeah.I I think, I don't think the answer is to just say suck it up, get better.What you gotta do.Get better at it.Yeah, because those people are walking.
They're voting with their feet.And I see that.You see that.They just say I'm done, I've had enough.I can't stand the people.I think it's much better to say it's not my thing, I just want to do my clinical work.So this comes back to we loop back to where we started and that was with the owner looking at the delegation, looking at where do I, how do I utilize the skills in my team?
You know, CCR that they, they are looking at the customer service team.They can be a very pivotal part in, in the relationship forming.And I've seen that done brilliantly.And also your vet nurses.
And so I'd be, look, I'd be encouraging people who say that isn't my thing.I just want to, I just want to concentrate on my clinical skills.Then how does the team work together to manage the human customer so they feel their needs are being met, but you're not burning out your vet because they're doing things that 'cause them heightened stress and heightened tension to the point that flips them over?
It's a big shift.Yeah, it is it.Is a big shift.I, I know we had somebody on the podcast, you talked about a business model that employs that hunts out and recruits people from customer facing professions who are really good at it and say it's actually really not really easy, but there's a program to teach you how to integrate into the vet profession.
And, and they run the public facing part because they're really good at it.And that's what the the client cares about, right?They just want to feel seen and heard and exactly the stuff we talked about.And then the vet waltzes in and say, hi, I'm doctor this.And then you shut up and do your work and engage to the level where you want to and just be more productive.
Yep, which makes a lot of sense for the for the right people.So it's about coming back, circling right back to what are we good at thinking outside of the box?Maybe we're not quite good at enough at it.Think about, think outside of the box a little bit more.Yeah.And it's about not one-size-fits-all and it is saying, well, just suck it up or just skill up in in some cases may not be the solution, but it's more of what have we got as our skill strengths in the team and let's maximize those.
Let's let's build those.And I know you know, most vet nurses are very engaging, very community focused, very relationship, a good relationship managers.I wouldn't say most.Well, me.The ones I love dearly who are not, I don't.
If I'm listening to this, no, it's no, it didn't sell.Me, I did.I did practice it by saying most.And maybe the solution is also because I'm trying to think from the perspective of a practice owner to say, well, what am I supposed to run a practice now that caters for everybody's needs and whims and personalities, and maybe not that, but maybe become a practice that does this thing really well.
And there's other practices.So this is a practice where the vets don't actually consult.We have two customer care specialists and you just do your vet work and this clinic, the vets shine and have different models and you'll attract those sort of people.Yeah, exactly.
So I, I want to work in a practice like that.Oh, there's practice for me because they do it that way.I immediately think of the the money conversation, which is a big issue for lots of it.But for me, I've tried very hard to get better at it.But there's clearly something that sticks for me.
It's a high friction point and maybe I just need to find practice where I don't have to have that.Conversation exactly.And you know, in a lot of practices I see they take that away from the vet.And so that's a conversation that happens with another staff member and it's very operational and it's just going through it.
So the, the vet can be concentrating on the preparation, the readiness for whatever's needed clinically.And so yes, I think I, I really do believe what you're saying and, and I really encourage the owners who are listening.To it's not saying, OK, you've got to start re, you know, you've got to absolutely throw out the baby with the bathwater.
I'm not saying that at all.What I am saying is where are the strengths in your team?How do you want to utilize that?And then how do you get the best what people enjoy and what what gets people up of a morning.If I hate talking to customers, then why keep on pushing me in there?
Because ultimately you do you feel I'm not listening to what where my stressor is.And ultimately, yeah, I'll leave.And so you've really signed their exit?I had a conversation with Doctor David Besler from the Well known Emergency group in the US and they do things a very specific way.
And I keep trying to dig into the downsides of that.And the end he said, it's very much we've planted a flag on our island to say this is our island, this is our culture, this is how we do things.Our island might not be for you.If you swim up to my island and you go, oh, I don't like that, then go find an island that works for you.
But the people who want my island and my culture will draw them to us and maybe that's it.They'll go plant a flag.But even you can have like sub islands within the same island.Yeah, I just was you were talking.I remember speaking to a vet owner and he said, oh fuck yeah.
I just can't stand.Well, the I I won't say what he said to me.I can't.Just wasn't for Craig, yeah.You're right there.Had a few more expletive.What he couldn't stand was on surgery day, just how much chatter from the vet nurses, You know, they'd be chatting about the weekend, chatting about all different things.
And he said I would get really angry.You know, I just want to go through the list for the day and look at things and get everything ready.And he said, so I'd get, they would see my anger.And so it'd set the day off badly and it'd just go downhill from there.
A really simple solution was what we did was he'd give them 15 minutes to have a chin wag.He wouldn't even be present as soon as he walked in.It was then I took up the list and it sounds simple, but for him it was that 15 minutes that he would just tear his hair out and it would just set up a really bad environment.
So he he, he made it very overt.It wasn't like he was just not there.He'd say you love your chats.I hate it.I'm going to go and have a coffee.I'm going to start put.My headphones in, yeah, yeah.Exactly.And you come and get me in 15 minutes and I'll come in and we'll start our list.
That's.Cool.And he said it's totally changed and they make a bit of a joke of it now, but it's totally changed the ambiance and the feeling.They're not pissed off with him, He's not pissed off with them and he recognizes their time of, of just talking about the food, the people, the Goss, all of that is what they need to then switch into work mode.
He he doesn't need any of that.And two very different personality types.He's put it out there, speak about it, recognize it, acknowledge it, not condoning or judging one versus the other, and then they get on with it, he said.
The productivity during surgery days has absolutely improved.Cool and use that ingenuity you think outside the box.That's right.Great place to wrap.I think I'm have you got.Am I missing anything?No, I think it's a really nice way that innovation is the key.
Fantastic Ronna, thank you so much.I I've missed chatting to you and I'm excited to get this one out.Thank you very much.It's been great to be here.Before you disappear, I wanted to tell you about my weekly newsletter.
I speak to so many interesting people and learn so many new things while making the clinical podcast.So I thought I'd grant a little summary each week of the stuff that stood out for me.We call it the Vet Vault 321 and it consists of three clinical pearls.These are three things that I've taken away from making the clinical podcast episodes, my light bulb moments.
Two other things.These could be quotes, links, movies, books, a podcast highlight, maybe even from our own podcast.Anything that I've come across outside of clinical vetting that I think that you might find interesting.And then one thing to think about, which is usually something that I'm pondering this week and that I'd like you to ponder with me.
If you'd like to get these in your inbox each week, then follow the newsletter link in the show description wherever you're listening.It's free and I'd like to think it's useful.OK, we'll see you next time.

Rhonda Andrews