Aug. 2, 2024

#126: Staying At The Heart Of Animal Care: The Disruptors Who Want To Replace Us, And How To Prevent It From Happening. With Dr Thom Jenkins

#126: Staying At The Heart Of Animal Care: The Disruptors Who Want To Replace Us, And How To Prevent It From Happening. With Dr Thom Jenkins

Join us for an inspiring conversation with Thom, as he shares his extraordinary journey from veterinary practice to becoming a tech entrepreneur.
Adventures Abroad: Relive Thom’s experiences volunteering with tigers in Thailand and building veterinary businesses in China’s burgeoning market.
Leadership and Operations: Gain practical insights on fostering strong team dynamics, mastering operational efficiency, and leading with purpose.
Tech Revolution in Veterinary Care: Discover how PetsApp is transforming client communication and clinic management, making it easier than ever to deliver exceptional care.
Addressing Industry Challenges: Explore how to adapt to disruptive technologies, evolving client expectations, and the integration of AI as a support tool—not a replacement for veterinary expertise.
Innovation with Integrity: Learn how Thom balances cutting-edge solutions with the timeless values of trust and care at the heart of the veterinary profession.
Whether you’re a veterinary professional, an aspiring entrepreneur, or simply curious about innovation in animal care, this episode is packed with actionable advice and bold ideas for thriving in a rapidly evolving industry.

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Season 1

In a world of Amazon and Uber-level convenience, where digital disruptors are changing the way the world interacts and how we do business, why do we think that the vet profession won't be impacted?

"We're facing a lot of disruption. There is this class of digital disruptive dis-intermediators that are emerging and trying to displace the position of the veterinary clinic. Many of them explicitly have the mission to become the most trusted, most convenient touch point in the pet care journey."

Dr Thom Jenkins is the co-founder & CEO of PetsApp, a client engagement platform the streamlines client interactions, and in this episode he'll show you why the veterinary profession is, and should remain, at the heart of animal care, why disruptors  think they can compete for the role of ‘most trusted’, and how they’ll do it. You’ll hear how practices are integrating telemedicine and online services with the physical touch points of traditional bricks and mortar clinics, how we’re our own worst enemies when we overpromise and underdeliver, and how a tech-savvy vet sees the role of AI in the future of veterinary science. Thom also tells us about his experiences of working as a vet in China.

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Topics and timestamps

05:30 Bad Decisions, Good Stories: Dr. Jenkins' Adventures

11:21 Veterinary Career in China: Challenges and Opportunities

21:51 The Future of Veterinary Medicine: Challenges and Solutions

35:48 Managing Expectations in Veterinary Practice

36:01 The Culture of Martyrdom in Veterinary Medicine

36:46 Setting Realistic Expectations for Customer Delight

38:52 The Role of Disruptors in Veterinary Medicine

40:47 Balancing Quality, Convenience, and Cost

42:29 The Importance of Physical Touchpoints

45:35 Leveraging Technology for Better Client Communication

50:47 The Role of AI in Veterinary Practice

56:37 Addressing Bottlenecks in Veterinary Business

01:09:55 Final Thoughts and Advice for New Graduates

“Why Digital Disruptors Are Targeting Vet Clinics—and How to Stay Ahead”

The veterinary profession is facing an unprecedented wave of disruption from digital-first companies aiming to reshape how pet care is delivered. From direct-to-consumer telemedicine platforms to online pharmacies and pet care apps, these disruptors are leveraging convenience and technology to capture the trust and loyalty of pet owners. Here's what you need to know about these disruptors, their impact on traditional veterinary practices, and how you can stay ahead.

The Rise of Digital Disruptors

  1. What They Offer: Digital disruptors like telemedicine providers and online pet care marketplaces promise instant access to advice, products, and services. They capitalize on the increasing demand for convenience in a world where pet owners expect seamless, on-demand experiences.
  2. The Threat: Many disruptors explicitly aim to displace veterinary clinics as the most trusted touchpoint in pet care. By focusing on convenience and affordability, they seek to draw clients away from traditional brick-and-mortar practices.
  3. The Market Shift: With 92% of pet issues currently addressed outside the clinic, disruptors see a massive untapped opportunity to capture a larger share of the pet care journey.

Challenges for Veterinary Clinics

  1. Convenience Gap: Traditional veterinary clinics excel in trust and quality but often fall short on convenience. Long wait times, phone tag, and limited appointment availability create frustration for pet owners.
  2. Cost Sensitivity: Pet owners are cost-conscious, particularly when dealing with minor or non-urgent concerns. Many hesitate to visit clinics due to perceived high costs for what might be a minor issue.
  3. Digital Expectations: Clients are accustomed to streamlined experiences in other areas of their lives, such as shopping, banking, and healthcare. They now expect the same level of convenience from their veterinary team.

How to Stay Ahead

  1. Embrace Technology
    • Adopt client communication platforms like two-way chat, telehealth tools, and online booking systems.
    • Use apps to streamline client touchpoints, from scheduling appointments to sharing test results.
  2. Redefine Accessibility
    • Offer virtual consultations for minor issues, reducing unnecessary in-clinic visits.
    • Provide asynchronous communication options, such as secure messaging, to manage client inquiries more efficiently.
  3. Strengthen the Trust Advantage
    • Highlight the unique value of in-person care, such as physical exams and personalized treatment plans.
    • Build relationships through proactive updates, like sharing photos of pets recovering post-surgery, which fosters emotional connections.
  4. Innovate Your Business Model
    • Consider subscription-based plans that bundle consultations and wellness services, creating consistent revenue streams while offering cost-effective solutions for clients.
    • Simplify pricing for digital services, making it easier for clients to engage with your team remotely without worrying about unexpected costs.
  5. Collaborate, Don’t Compete
    • Partner with technology providers or disruptors to integrate their offerings into your practice. For example, use digital platforms to capture initial inquiries and triage cases before they escalate.
    • Use data insights from digital tools to better understand client needs and tailor services accordingly.

Key Takeaways

Digital disruptors are not just a passing trend; they are fundamentally reshaping the pet care landscape. However, they also offer an opportunity for veterinary clinics to evolve. By layering convenience onto your existing trust and quality advantage, you can strengthen your clinic's position as the go-to resource for pet care. Staying proactive and client-focused in your approach will ensure your practice thrives in this changing environment.

"Why Convenience is the Missing Ingredient in Veterinary Client Care"

Convenience is a critical element of excellent veterinary client care that is often overlooked. Traditionally, veterinary practices have focused on quality and trust, but have lagged behind in providing convenient services for pet owners. This lack of convenience has created several problems for veterinary practices and their clients, leaving the door open for digital disruptors to enter the market and attempt to displace the vital role of the veterinary clinic.

Pet owners are increasingly seeking convenient ways to access veterinary care, and digital disruptors are stepping in to fill this void. These companies offer services like online pharmacy and telemedicine, which can be more convenient for busy pet owners. While these services can be beneficial in some cases, they risk undermining the veterinarian's role as the most trusted source of pet care information and services.

One of the main reasons why convenience is so important is that it can help to improve patient outcomes. When pet owners have convenient access to veterinary care, they are more likely to seek help for their pets when they need it. This is especially true for cats, which are often under-medicalized because their owners find it difficult to bring them into the clinic. By reducing the barriers to accessing care, veterinary practices can help to ensure that more pets receive the care they need, when they need it.

Another important benefit of convenience is that it can help to reduce stress for both pet owners and veterinary teams. When pet owners can easily book appointments, ask questions, and receive updates about their pets, they are less likely to feel anxious or frustrated. This can lead to a more positive client experience overall.

The episode discussed several practical ways that veterinary practices can improve convenience for their clients:

  • Automated appointment booking systems: These systems can allow pet owners to book appointments online at their convenience, without having to call the clinic.
  • Two-way chat platforms: These platforms can allow pet owners to ask questions, receive updates, and share photos with their veterinary team in real-time.
  • Subscription wellness plans: These plans can provide pet owners with convenient and affordable access to preventive care services, such as vaccinations and parasite prevention.
  • Home delivery of medications and supplies: This can be a convenient option for busy pet owners who cannot make it to the clinic to pick up their pet's medications.

The episode also highlight the importance of setting realistic expectations with clients and exceeding those expectations whenever possible. By providing clear communication and timely responses, veterinary practices can build trust and loyalty with their clients.

By embracing technology and focusing on client convenience, veterinary practices can strengthen their position as the most trusted source of pet care, improve patient outcomes, and create a more positive experience for both pet owners and veterinary teams.

Quality, convenience.Cost.Doctor Tom Jenkins reckons that we suck at two out of these three things.Can you guess which two?But we get away with it because, well, we're the only option.
If you want healthcare for your animal, then your local veterinarian, it's kind of all you've got until now.In a world of Amazon level convenience, where digital disruptors are changing the way the world interacts and how we do business, why do we think that we as a profession will be any different?
Make no mistake, there are disruptors out there who want what we have.We're facing a lot of disruption.There is this class of digital disruptive disintermediators that are emerging and trying to displace the position of the Vetni clank.
And what do we have?It's dressed.I remember 1 Patern speaking for many when she described the beautiful relationship that she has with her Vetni team.Can you imagine describing the beautiful relationship with your lawyer or your accountant?I'm Hubert Tim Strat, and you are listening to The Vet Vault where we unlock the secrets of a happy and fulfilled vet life one story at a time.
And in this episode, Doctor Tom Jenkins will show you why the vet profession is and should remain at the heart of animal care.Why does Raptors think that they can compete for the role of most trusted and how they'll do it?There's a potential future for us where all the good high margin stuff is dealt with by these digital direct consumer disruptors, while all the expense and practicality and operational complexity of running a physical business is left to those that own those.
And I just don't want to see that.Tom also shares strategies to help us maximize our impact by using the trust that we have plus our high levels of skill and knowledge by leveraging increased convenience.And no, it's not by simply working harder.You'll hear how practices are integrating telemedicine and online services with the physical touch points that we know and love in traditional bricks and mortar clinics, and how we are our own worst enemies when we over promise and under deliver.
And of course, I can't chat to a tech savvy vet without asking about how they see the role of AI in the future of veterinary science.So who is Tom Doctor?Tom Jenkins is a vet and the Co founder and CEO of Pets App, a client engagement platform that streamlines client interactions.
He started his veterinary career in China, which he'll tell us more about in this chat.Tom served as the chief operating officer of veterinary groups in both the UK and Asia, and he was the inaugural chair of Vet Forum in the UK and the USA.He also sits on the board of YLD, a software engineering and design consultancy, and his favorite animals are.
People.Before we jump in with Tom, just two quick things.First of our not a survey, because everyone's sick of surveys.I'm asking for your feedback to make sure that the Vet Vault is as valuable to you as is possible.Maybe you have suggestions on what you want to see less of or more of.
Or maybe you love it as it is and you don't want anything to change.Let me know before I institute my plan of changing the format into a Carpool Karaoke model where I make the guest sing with me.It's a super short survey with just twelve questions and you'll get it done in 5 minutes.Go to BAT dot LY forward slash vet vault feedback or when you get to your destination, click on the link that I have in the show description where you're listening to it right now and help me to make a better podcast.
And then conferences.I've started doing live podcasts at vet conferences where I interview speakers to get highlights from their talks, which is super fun.It's also reminded me how awesome the humans of the vet profession are and how much fun it is to hang out in person.
My next conference is just two weeks away.That is on the 12th through the 16th of August, right here in my hometown on the Sunshine Coast.It's the combined conference of the Australian small Animal Veterinarians and Veterinary business chapters of the Australian Vet Association with spectacular content on the topic of beats and business.
So cardiology, thing, medicine and a great business stream.So if you need a last minute getaway to the best part of Australia, combined with incredible CE and a beach party, come and join me.And then for our US listeners, I'll be back at IVEX.That's the International Veterinary Emergency Critical Care Societies conference, which if you've never attended is huge and is really fun.
It's in Saint Louis this year or is that actually Saint Louis?I'm not sure how you say it.It's from the 7th to the 11th September and it is a must do and I'd love it if you come and say hi to me at the Vex Store.Links for both these conferences are in the show description.And of course all the content that I record at these events will go onto our clinical podcasts, which if you haven't signed up yet, if I can brag a bit, it's just getting better and better.
Not because of me, but because of the epic guests that I'm increasingly getting access to.I had some great feedback when I was at Science Week last week with someone telling me that it is by far the most accessible and relevant continuing education resource out there.You can try it for free for two weeks at vvn.supercast.com.
OK, let's get into it with Doctor Tom Jenkins with possibly the best bad decision, good story that we've ever had on the podcast.So let's start with bad decisions, good stories.
Have you got any things that you in retrospect ago?That was a dumb decision, but I'd sure have a good story from that.Plenty.I think that was not a bad way to live your life, right?I think for better or for worse, we live our lives more in the remembering than in the moment.So to accumulate good stories even in the face of bad decisions, I think is quite good.
There's that, that there's a Chinese proverb, I, I think that says may you live in interesting times.And it's it's not a problem.It's a curse.I think it's meant to be a curse.But I think there's no better way to live.Like just try and keep things interesting.But you're going to want specific examples, aren't you?
You're not going to let me get away with.I love it, but I, but I, I like that statement of that's not a bad way to live your life.And again, you're talking to vets, generally intelligent people who think about stuff and sometimes overthink things, which sometimes try to figure out the perfect decision with the end outcome clear sometimes stops you from doing anything and then you do nothing.
Rather do something dumb but do something and then something will happen.I think we are as a profession, we are a little bit obsessed with the edge cases.And we're, we're, we're trained and it's useful in, in medicine to ask yourselves what if, well, what if that happened and what if that happened and what if that happened?
I think in business it's, and maybe in life that's not so useful.Sometimes you just have to manage on average and just by on on average.If I conduct myself in this way, it will come right on average.And if from time to time it looks a little bit silly in retrospect, so, you know, I don't have to take myself so seriously that I can't wear that.
OK, now specific examples.Bad decisions, good stories.OK, I I went to volunteer for a month at I don't know if you've heard of this, but it's the Tiger Temple in Thailand.It's well known controversial place right where you get to pose with tigers which are supposed to be dragged to the eyeballs or something like that.
Yeah, I wish that was the only welfare concern.I think it's since then closed for trading in tiger parts, which is what they said they were trying to stop.But me and a friend saw the Lion Man or something like this on Discovery Channel, Animal Planet.And he was there at the Tiger Temple.
And it was these monks who had supposedly saved tigers from the trade in tiger parks.I'm a naive ethnic student at the time.Like, why don't we go and help?Like we can help.And so found an e-mail online, dropped them an e-mail and they said, sure, turn up on this day at this time in this rural part of Thailand and you can help us.
And I think like in seriousness, some dreadful stuff happening and not sure we helped a whole lot, but we tried our best.But super naive but very interesting and a lot of incredible stories and including very nearly being eaten by a tiger on two separate occasions.
But.Which, to be fair, would have been my number one concern.If I was making that decision, I would go.So what could possibly go wrong?Well, I could be eaten by a tiger, which is a significant dress.Well, one of the when we first went there, the guy that was there to greet us, he said, he warned me that if I were to get bitten by a tiger, not to cry because the team would find it funny and might encourage the tiger to buy me more.
And I remember thinking at the time, one, there's a peculiar thing to say.I want a peculiar response to human suffering.But two, it's been a long time since I had cried in pain.I'm a big crier.The notebook gets me every time, but in pain.It's been a while, but I've not been bitten by a tiger before you.
You can't rule it out.On a scale of pain, where does tiger attack fall?Paper cat number 10.My goodness, so tell me about always being eaten by a tiger.Like what was the scenario?One of them was a team of Japanese vets was flown in to do health checks on the on the animals in the monastery.
And there were about 30 tigers, a couple of lions, an Asiatic back there, a leopard.And we're doing this check on a Bengal tiger.And they were micro chipping them as part of the process.And I did tell you that I was a veg student, right?And So what do you do after you put the microchip in?You meant to scan for the microchip.
Oh, I forgot to tell you the dart, this tiger, when it started, it bounced out.And so they didn't know how much sedative it had had.So you had these two men on the other side of the cage holding a chain or a rope that's attached to a collar around the Tiger's neck trying to keep it.It was ACP but not fully AC.
So this Japanese vet did the microchip.And then me, I'm like, but we didn't scan for it.And it the Japanese vet is like, be my guest as he's leaving the cage.And so I go back in and I scan and just as I do that the tiger, his name was Mech, the biggest tiger on the in the monastery.
Of course, he slips the collar.He starts ambling towards me, taking one slow step at a time.Had you already scanned him, or were you still adamant that you're going?To in place.All good.I just needed to get out of there.And as he's coming towards me, I get the cage door and I sort of swing it open between me and him.
So there's a barrier, but everyone outside is saying no, don't let him out.And so I'm thinking at that point, pick one for the team closing the door and no way to lie.Just as he's like literally raises port right near me and he just falls down to the ground and falls asleep.
And I'm like ready to emerge triumphant thinking like what?What a credible story.Hero kind of thing.And the cage door is kind of I'm quite tall, the cage door is quite low and made out of metal bars.I give myself concussion leaving the cage and just smash my head on the cage door.
Hardest I've ever hit anything.So yeah, that was that.That is a dumb decision and a great story.Well done.I think you may have, you may have won that question, that section of the podcast Dumb.You sound like you.You do make big, bold decisions.And what about the consequences later?
China seems like there was one of them.You were youngish.Tell me about your victory in China.Why?And what was it like?Yeah, lots of people had told me at the time that was not a great decision, a lack of a culture of pet ownership, fair number of people saying don't they eat dogs, that kind of thing.
When I told them I'm going to start my career out in China.But what happened was when I should have been studying for my finals.And procrastination is also a source of many interesting stories.I read the growth map by Jim O'Neill and that's where he outlines the brick concept of Brazil, Russia, India, China as being the emerging markets.
And so I thought that would be a cool place to start your career in a high growth market.So I googled vets in Brazil.I couldn't really find anything.And I thought India, English is like the business language there.I'd already started trying to teach myself Brazilian Portuguese.So I don't want to have to start again on something else.
And but there are barriers to foreign investment in India at that time at least.So that was kind of a non starter.On my third attempt at grieving, you know, vets in China, I found this group of four clinics in Beijing and I emailed them and I said, look, if I get around to studying, I'm going to become a vet.
And I'm interested in the business side of things.If you're interested in growing, then I'd love to put my hat in the ring.And they said yes.So that's where I started my career as a vet.So this was before you finished your vet degree.You're already pick China as where you're going to go.
Yeah, yeah.So this is I think first contact with them would have been 2011 and I graduated in 2012, Yeah.Wow, that's, that's insightful.So was the driver for that the business?Was it a, oh, I want to go do something different and not just start my career in a small practice somewhere in the UK like all of my classmates?
Or was it a I'm interested in business and where's there going to be maximal business opportunity and let's go there?I bet it both and also just life happening.Like, I don't think it was.Yeah, it's easy to just tell a very neat story.But yeah, I wanted to do something different and interesting.
I thought, well, that's what I thought.At the very worst, this will be an interesting story.At best, it will be, you know, something more than that.And it was, I mean, it's super pivotal in in how my life has taken shape since then.But I'd always wanted to be a bit for as long as I can remember.That's, you know, the the story.
That's me.But at age 1213, I swapped a paper out for web development.So I got involved in web development and very quickly I was working with North American clients and outsourcing to Asia and sort of leveraging EU KS time zone.I really enjoyed the project management business side of things.
So even by the time I went to vet school, I was thinking how could I find an intersection between vet medicine, business, technology and I saw practice with this phenomenal group of connects called the part of that group before I went to.That's why I actually worked them as a sort of cool boy, the kennels, etcetera.
I got to work with some really great people, including Pete Orpin.Pete, I don't know if you know Pete, but he's combined all kinds of different interests.I saw.OK, so you can find these intersections, these interesting intersections within the Vetney world.You know, vets get stay, go diversify.
They talk about their vetting passport and that's definitely how I thought about going into that school is that there'll there'll be some interesting opportunities that come out of this.And yeah, China was the one I I ultimately found available to me, I guess.That's such a unique mindset because most of us always wanted to be a vet.
We very narrow minded of about what that looks like.I'm going to become a vet, I'm going to get a job and I'm going to fix dogs, cats, and that's kind of where the creativity stops.I love that you went into the whole thing with, OK, let's make something really exciting out of this.Whereas a lot of people like myself get 5-10 years in and go, I'm so bored, what else can I do with this thing that I have?
Whereas you went in from the beginning and and said no, I want to do something different with it.Yeah, but a lot of it, I can't overstate how much of it was driven by naivety.I didn't know any vets, right?My dad was a roofer, My mum, when I was a teenager, trained to be a midwife.
I didn't know what it was to be a vet.So all that time that I was saying I want to be a vet, I told people that I wanted to go to Oxford to study, to become a veterinarian.Oxford doesn't have a vet school.And I only found that out when it came to applying right along the way.Just a story characterized by sometimes like what you don't know is as much part of the story as what you do.
And what I didn't mention in the story of choosing to go to China, we've made this television show in my second class year at uni was Spyro Vet School, doing a game capture course in South Africa.And part of the show was about rhino poaching.And I saw a lot of people doing a lot of great work on the supply side of the rhino poaching problem.
And I thought, well, where is this rhino horn actually ending up?And it's Vietnam and China.I said, what about could you do some work on the demand side of the equation?So part of going to China was, I thought, again, naivety.You could just go around people and tell people like, don't eat rhino horn, it's bad kind of thing, and that would solve the problem.
I mean, I did very, very little to help in that regard, I would say, but.Tell me about vet life in China.So you mentioned there when you said to people I want to go vet in China and the concerns and the perception that of a lack of a culture of pet ownership.Is that justified or is there is there a culture of pet ownership or a growing what?
Yeah.What's happening in China with the vet space?The culture is changing very quickly.Even over the time I was there, the sort of per household penetration of pet ownership was incredibly low compared to other places in the world like what we might be used to, maybe like 10% of households.And a fairly recent history of pet ownership not being illegal but maybe frowned upon as a bourgeois activity in communist China.
And now as you now got communism with Chinese characteristics, IE capitalism, you have pet ownership as an expression of affluence.And that's what's driving the very fast growth in pet ownership and Venti clinics and Venti businesses.But if you think of Venti clinic, the number one driver of which Venti clinic someone goes to is still geography, it's still proximity.
And so if you've got a catchment area for a clinic and penetration of pet ownership, that's like 1/5 a 6th of what it is in some other markets.It does create a very particular set of problems in making that business work.And so there are some of those sort of creative problem solving challenges we had in in the Chinese market.
So how long were you there for, Tom?Five years overall.So I spent a year in Beijing, about 2 1/2 years in Shanghai, a year in Hong Kong.We had clinics in all of those places, but also Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Suzhou, Nanjing and Singapore as well.What was your role in that business?
Ultimately, I became chief operating officer of the Group of Clinics.So were you clinically vetting and then doing what growth plan and picking new sites and and leadership and management or what?What did your everyday life look like?Yeah.Yeah, For the first two years I was working as a net new consultant, so basically working as a vet but alongside a Chinese vet.
And over time we open a new clinic.And I remember sitting in that new clinic hoping no one walked in the door so I could do my real job, which was trying to do the management stuff.And that's not a good place to be in when you got new things.At that time, I knew it was like I got to choose, am I going to be doing kind of cool?
I'm going to be focusing on more of the business side, the operational side, the growth side.And so, yeah, I hung up my Seth Gopal after a brief 2:00-ish years then of binary medicine.Have you done clinical work since then?No, I haven't.Yeah, well, very different path.Very interesting.
So working as a vet in in China for anybody listening going oh wow, that sounds completely left a field and maybe I want to look into it.Is it a cool place to work?Is it simple enough visa wise qualification set work just to very briefly practicalities of of going there?It's complicated, but is it worthwhile?
Because I mean, I learnt a heck of a lot and the cultural difference is incredibly real, right?And I like that sort of stuff.And we were an international team.There were people from 20 different countries working there, and I loved that.And each of the Chinese cities is culturally very different too.
And there are cities, these massive, multi million people, cities that before I went there, I'd never heard of.But they are there and they exist.And it's, well, this place is the size of New York.Why don't I know it?And going there and learning about Chinese history, I didn't know it like basically nothing about Chinese history.
And so just such a rich experience in so many ways.I've met my wife there.I had my first kid in Hong Kong, so a very formative part of my life for sure all.Right.So the summary of I'm done with China and now I have a tech business pets app.
How did you go from there to there in brief?Yeah, again, I did caution against having too much of A trying to retrospectively apply too much of narrative.But having done the web development, wanting to be a vet, loving animals, the kind of intersection of business, technology, pets, that new medicine was what I was always try and journey towards.
And having the experience internationally, because I also worked at a group of ethics in the UK, having the operation experience in 30, I spent a lot of time in the US as well, seeing practice there.And so seeing some of the pain points and thinking we can solve for a lot of these with technology, with software, we can solve for these at scale in an operationally effectible way.
Because this is one of the things you learn when you try and run about new business for small businesses.They're operationally incredibly complex and every one of us is assembled our own particular apple cart are solutions to operational complexity.And you can go and you can look at software and it can in theory seem like the right thing, but when the rubber hits the road, it upsets the apple cart too much.
And so that's sort of what I got frustrated by in operating Medic Connect is a lack of good options to actually for software enablement of what I was trying to do.Yeah, it's an exciting time for that at the moment.I, I've run my own business as well and where I work now, I do help think about solutions and it's exactly that operational stuff.
How do you make, because it's a very simple premise.Sick animal comes in or animal comes in for preventive stuff and we treat it and goes out.But so many little steps of contact and touch points.And as you say, it is it, it, it is the main thing that makes it such a hard job sometimes very exciting stuff happening.
So you have your SAS business software as a service for anybody who doesn't know, because I didn't know what that meant until about a year ago.So have your your software as a service business for the vet profession and a business is there to solve problems.You talked about the problems.What would you say are the, let's say, the top three problems that the vetting profession faces in 2024 that needs solving and maybe that you are trying to solve with what you're doing?
I mean, we're facing a lot of disruption.There is this class of digital disruptive disintermediators that are emerging and trying to displace the position of the Veni clank.
Many of them explicitly have the mission to become the most trusted, most convenient touch point in the pet care journey.When I hear that most trusted, that's us.That's the Veni Clank, right?And I, for whatever reason, particularly passionate about the place of the vetting clinic in that community.
And maybe part of it is, you know, before going to vet school, that experience with part of that new group and how much that meant to me and see how much it meant to others and the community of people there and just the community that we we live in, right?That new profession, the vetting sector, there's something about it that just floats my boat.
And I don't want to see that physical vetting clinic being disintermediated.There's a potential future for us where all the good high margin stuff is dealt with by these digital direct consumer disruptors.And while all the expense and practicality and operational complexity of running a physical business is left to those that own those.
And I just don't want to see that.I think the only people, the people who are best placed and the only people that can provide it joined up online to offline experience, the people in those physical locations serving the physical needs of these physical beings that are pets.
So I think that there's this disintermediation risk, but to front up to that risk, we do need to layer convenience on top of this high trust up point that we have.So then we do have this challenge for ourselves about how do we make it more convenient because currently only 8% of all pet issues are addressed by their expertise.
That means 92% of all pet issues go unaddressed by the people best placed to address them.And people listening to this might be like shock horror.Is he saying we should be doing more because we've already stretched?Not necessarily, but we have to be aware of sometimes it's the wrong 8%, sometimes the pet issues presenting to us are the wrong 8% because who is the main determinant, the main decision maker and which issues get serviced to us is the pet owner.
And they're not always the best ones.Place to decide what is urgent versus what is just a curiosity.And so laying on convenience on top of a high trust touch point and finding ways to leverage technology to achieve more for our patients while asking less of our teams, I think that's how we face this of I'm not sure if I gave you three challenges there, but that mix of challenges I've just tried to describe.
The last sentence was full of points.What did you say?Layering convenience onto high trust and asking less of our teams.They seem conflicting ideas almost to say let's do more but also do less in a way, right?
Work less to achieve more.Yeah.Yeah, exactly.And I think it's going to require that we challenge some of our assumptions.The biggest thing holding us back in designing better consumer experiences is our preconceptions.Have any teens preconceptions around what those experiences are meant to look like?
And there are business models.The beautiful thing about the existence of these direct consumer digital disruptors is they provide some pretty good playbooks for us to copy.So if you think of Amazon, Amazon is one of the biggest search engines on the Internet.They cast a very wide net.
They have a very broad top of funnel.They want to service as much customer demand as possible so they can just see what do people want.One of the things that some people don't know about Amazon is more than half of what you buy on Amazon is not sold to you by Amazon.It's sold to you by third party on the Amazon platform has this broad top of funnel, but then a narrow shoot where they cherry pick what demand they want to serve and then they leave the rest for others seeing the demand, they get to be the ones that decide, so they get to be in charge.
And then they craft these incredible consumer experiences tied to subscriptions that lead to a higher repeat purchasing that leaves them in the centre of the journey while leaving room for others.And that's what I think that new clinic's good to have a nice broad Topper funnel surface.A lot of pet issues cherry pick.
Which of those pet issues represent the best patient advocacy opportunities for in clinic and then create great customer experiences that mean we stay at the heart of a pet care journey?Quick interruption to remind you about a way that we can help you in clinical practice.So one of the perks of making the clinical podcasts is that I gradually developed a long list of e-mail addresses and phone numbers for some of the.
World's best.Specialists and every now and again I would abuse this privilege with a sneaky text message for some case help.Like.I have this case.What do you think?Or can you have a quick look at these breads or bloods or whatever?Priceless.
Well, not priceless actually, because I've gathered some of these smart people in an online space where you can do exactly the same for about 15 bucks a month.We've created our specialist support space with specialists in medicine, surgery, emergency and critical care, dermatology, a diabetes specialist, and an oncologist where you can send a quick SOS for those tricky cases where you need just a little bit of extra brainpower.
You can sign up with the link in the show description.As you said a phrase right in the beginning of this conversation of this, the answer to this question, you talked about the high margin things that doesn't fit within that 8% that we are servicing.What sort of things are we talking about?
I'm trying to picture practically what are we missing out on or not servicing as a profession.Yeah, it it varies on a on a per pet basis, right of I've had a pet owner rush in to see me because they're concerned about a lump on their pet's abdomen.It turns out that's their cat's nipple, and they say he's a male cat.
And I'm there subconsciously looking down at my own chest being like, yeah.And at that point, the right thing to do is then try and orientate the conversation about their dental health or whatever it might be.But they're only so embarrassed or they just want to get out of it.So what happens there is we've just done a console all all I can charge for with from that bulk of time is a console.
And I've achieved nothing for that pet.There's no patient advocacy.We don't charge the consoles because we go.I didn't really do anything.Exactly right.And even if we charge the consult, we've lost money we've not paid to keep the light on because our consult fees, you know, are not enough alone to pay for what we need to pay for to cover our costs.
Healthcare is expensive to deliver and we could have saved that pet owner the journey.Because diagnosing a cat's nipple remotely is not at all controversial.You know, I'm not big on this whole diagnose everything remotely.I think you do need these physical touch points, but even I would be comfortable diagnosing a cat's nipple remotely in most circumstances.
So I could have avoided that loss of the consult and instead left that consultation slot for something that is a more richer patient advocacy opportunity.And that could be the blocked cat.That could be GDV.These are things that pet owners see and don't necessarily know how much of emergency is or the Lilly toxicity in a cat or if they had a convenient way of just surfacing.
Do I need to come in?They would.If the venue recommendation was there, they would come in and then you'd have a richer patient adversity opportunity.And this is where the wonderful thing in picking my career path age 5, I didn't know this, but I discovered the alignment in the venue sector is just incredible.
The ways in which you can do well by doing good.The win, win, win scenarios here.Not all of life is like this.Some of life is 0.Some venue luckily isn't so much like that.And so by picking the richest patient advocacy opportunities, what are you doing?You're serving the pets that need you the most when they need you the most.
By picking the richer patient, obviously opportunities what you're doing, you're satisfying your own intellectual curiosity better because this is going to be a much more interesting case for me than that cat's nipple.What you're doing, you're creating the richest upsell opportunities for a business to actually make money, which is also OK by the way.
So the the combination of factors actually how can we make the most of those alignment of interests and set ourselves up for more of those win, win, win scenarios?So I'm trying to see this in a practical light.So are you saying that the tetanus pills and the well, my dog is a I've, I've seen quite a few.
My dog is a tumor in his penis and you go, no, that's called an erection.Should we not be seeing those are are we trying to apply a filtration effect to say, well, don't see the things that are going to waste our time and then we can't charge for or should we deal with it in a different way?Yeah.
How do we make this practical?We don't need to see them physically.That's what I would say.We still want to be the ones to address that that need because pet owner curiosity is our friend.We want pet owners to be asking questions about their pets because some of the staff is going to be super obvious to us but not obvious to them.
Some of that stuff is going to be serious and does need urgent attention, and some of it's just going to be reassurance.There's this Brenda Brown quote that I really like where she talks about trust being earned in the smallest of moments.So we still want to be the ones earning that trust.We can't become complacent around our position as the highest trust touch point in the Becky journey.
We have to be the highest trust touch point and a convenient touch point, not one for the other.So we still want to be the one dispensing reassurance and earning that trust.And there's no better way to earn trust than say, hey, by the way, you don't need to come in.You could save yourself that consult fee.And then next time they do need you, they'll service that.
And again, you get to decide what is the most appropriate way for me to advocate for this patient?Could it be dealt with remotely very quickly?Does it need to come in?And what does it journey need to look like beyond that?Because even when it needs to come in, doesn't need to come in again.Or could that touch point be a remote touch point?
So we get to construct these joined up online to offline experiences that are oriented around this very high trust relationship between the family team and the pet owner and the patient.So the purpose of that is to not become the last place that people come for advice and they go to Google or Facebook chat groups or the breeder or everything else to ask their questions for whatever reason.
And maybe the reason is because I, I don't want to pay a consult fee to ask what might be a silly question is that the broader purpose of that is that we become the, we cast the net wider.That says, yeah, we can answer all your all your questions and then we can choose which ones do you need to come in and pay a consult for the high value stuff as you say.
Yeah, this is part of it.I mean, I think the cost sensitivity of of pet owners is a factor, but it's not the number one factor.There are other things going on here.Sometimes pet owners, our biggest competitor is pet owners sitting at home hoping for the best.One of the reasons they're hoping for the best is they don't want to disturb the vetting team.
And we don't see those pet owners.This is the problem.Like when you talk about this, the vetting team, they're like, oh, yeah, or the other one.But if you go on the App Store, you search your pets up and you look at the reviews, they're saying, I'm so glad I have a way to contact my vetting team without jumping the queue and more urgent, more important issues.
But these people would not have surfaced those issues if they hadn't had a way to do it where they felt it was respectful of the vetting team's time.And so I think sometimes we don't set ourselves up to serve those people that are most respectful of of our expertise and our professional abilities.
Never thought of that but now that you say it I I do.Working in emergency.We work odd hours and the number of times where people have said I'm so sorry to waste your time or to disturb you or to bother you, you know, it's 11:00 or it's a Sunday or a public holiday or something.
And I always reply, I said no, I'm very glad to hear because if you would, I wouldn't have a job.So thank you for.I think it's human nature to remember the negative interactions more than the positive interactions, but I do think that narrative needs to be told of that new professionals are are loved.
Before I built anything at Pets Up, we did customer search and I remember 1 pet owner speaking from many when she described the beautiful relationship that she has with her.That Nikim, Can you imagine describing the beautiful relationship with your lawyer or your accountant?Like it just it's not going to happen.
My my accountant is my sister so I shouldn't say that.That's so interesting to hear that we are loved because the temptation that's happening these days is you spend time online and you see a lot of vet bashing trolls.Basically, it's always the, the local community group where somebody asks a question about their pet and then all the comments about, well, don't go to the bed because they, they're just going to charge you or they just, you know, then we see that and that reinforces that message.
People don't like us anymore.Why have we lost that trust?But I love that you're saying that's a allowed minority and we're ignoring the other people to go.No, I really like you, dude.I I want to work with you.It's important to recognize it's real, right?And it's sad and I don't like to see it either, but I think it is a vocal minority.
I think that is the truth of it, that we do have this very high trust position in the community and there are these digital disruptors that are coming for us that want that, that just wish they could have that.And it's in their mission statement.They want to dethrone the vetting professional as the highest trust touch point.
And so I would say there's room for hope and optimism of that is where we are.That is who we are.That is how we're seen by the majority.But we can't take that for granted.We have to earn it every day and we have to think of how we earn it in the prevailing consumer expectations because I think it's Jeff Bezos has said customer expectations aren't static, they go up.
It's human nature.And so we have to make sure we remain the high trust touch point as those expectations change.So we have this gift of trust that has been gifted to us by our predecessors, by previous generations of vets who worked very hard to build it.And we throw it away by going.
People are so demanding.Come on.I mean, I'm, I'm trying my best to stop wedging.And in fact, that's interesting.The basis statement about expectations will go up.Meet it or lose it.Somebody else more eager is going to take it.And I think expectations is something we do a very bad job of managing, and it's because we are eager to serve.
There is still something of a culture of martyrdom in vetting practice.My hero growing up was Dian Fossey.She wasn't a vet, but she was a sologist.She worked with animals and she literally died in the service of animals.I thought that was great.I thought it was wonderful.And that that's the story that a lot of us buy into that even if we don't take it to that degree, nothing is too much to ask of us in the service of companion animals, you know, in the service of animal welfare.
And that's just not true.There.There is, there are times when there's too much to ask.But because we think that way, we go above and beyond to meet our patients needs.We put our blood, sweat, tears, best effort into serving patient need.And in doing so, what we're doing is set an expectation sky high.
And any time we fall just slightly short of those expectations we've set or like you can't get higher than that.What we've done is construct a bad customer experience.If we could consistently set expectations more reasonably for ourselves and then consistently exceed them, we'd have this gap, but then be customer delight rather than customer aggravation.
And you'd see that playing out in clinic and, and, and one of the things is the telephone.I train my teams.You've got to answer the telephone within three rings.That's very hard to do.And when you're not doing it, what do you do?You put in another telephone line out the back in the prep room so the vetting nurses, they can answer the phones because they've got nothing better to do.
Hey, or you install more phone lines as if you're going to grow more arms to answer more.We just set ourselves up to just horse short of expectations.I just think there are ways we can do it where we reorient it.And if we set ourselves up to delight customers more often, we'll find that we enjoy the job more too.
I'm trying to get my head around that concept of set slightly lower expectations and then exceed them versus the other way around.It feels very counterintuitive to several set lower expectations.Give me an example.Can we use the phone as a potential example of saying how do we reset expectations?
Every interaction on Pets app starts with an automated welcome message and in that welcome message we recommend that Vet Defence put within these hours.We will respond within 2-3 hours to your message and so you've gone from having three rings to answer a telephone where everything has to be treated as if it were an emergency until proven otherwise, to a situation where you can prioritise at a glance and you've got 3 hours to respond.
We actually have the data to show that customer effort score, which we collect at the end of every interaction.Customer effort score does not degrade until you take 5 hours to respond to a chat.So it's only just by setting the expectations at the start of the interaction, you've actually create a better life for yourself and much more customer delight because they know that you're going to get back to them.
They can put their phone back in their pocket, get on with their day and it's again this win, win, win scenario that's being set up.I want to ask you about pay tab.I'll hold on that a few more questions, but I'm still trying to get my head around exactly what it is because it seems to be many things.I do want to ask you though, back quickly to disruptors.
You keep talking about these disruptors who are coming for us.Who are the disruptors and what do they look like?Because most of us have our heads down and our fingers up Doug's so we don't see the disruptors coming.Yeah.I mean they're direct consumer telemedicine companies who are aligned with stakeholders that maybe want fewer vet visits.
I would say the average pet doesn't see their vet enough, but that is not the view across the whole of the market.So there are people with their interests are aligned in that direction have actually reduced the number, total number of any visits.There are online players, pet focused Amazon equivalents even including Amazon.
Even Walmart is now partnered with a direct consumer telemedicine company.So I think the easier question to answer would be who isn't coming for this market because it's got a lot of attention recently and it's a very attractive market in terms of size.But you can think of online pharmacy where that goes, basically trying to digitize the products and services that have any clinic would otherwise.
Which on the service to me feels like a good thing because maybe it's changing a bit, but it certainly in the post COVID years, the the madness there was that period.We were just so as a profession, so under the pump that anybody who took the pressure off and dealt with this shit that we don't want to deal with was amazing.
I was like, OK, cool, that's three fewer phone calls.I have to answer.I can focus on the sick animals, but I like that you point out that that's not desirable because once you lose them, you lose them.And as you say, then we become the last port of call instead of the a critical part.You have a line somewhere on your website or your blog or something about the heart of the vet profession or the pet industry, and then the risk is that we lose that place at the heart of the profession.
And then we lose our position as the most trusted touch point.And then what do we have?Most businesses, they try and compete on two out of the three things, quality, convenience and cost.Healthcare is never going to be a cheap touch point, right?Even if you're trying to orientate yourself as an affordable clinic for the clients you're serving, you're still going to be relatively expensive as a touch point.
Quality, that's where we excel.The traditional benefit excels.We're high trust.That's a quality signifier, right?And then convenience, we don't typically do too well.Most businesses try and do well on two out of three and then extract value on the 3rd.Where they don't do so well, The traditional benefit scores well on one out of three.
The quality, the trust.What we're saying is that is like the siren song for disruptors where they see a sector where the prevailing offer is only competing on one out of three of those value signifiers.They're like, we can come in, do well on one more than they're doing.
There's still room to extract value, right?And So what I would say to traditional retina clinic providers is don't let them do that.Don't let them steal the pie.Just add some convenience and you can still do well.And this is the problem.I think you hit the nail on the head is that as the pie has been growing, we have been relatively anaesthetized to the effects of these direct consumer digital disruptors taking a slice of the pie because it's a growing pie.
And we're a collegiate bunch.We're like, yeah, you know, come on, come on.There's room for.But what happens when that pie stops growing?What happens when that pie maybe starts to shrink a little bit?These are these are uncertain economic times.And then beyond the economic incentive, what about our patients?Are these people the best place to serve our patients?
These are physical beings with physical needs.Pretending you can upload Fluffy to the cloud, no matter how much fluffy might look like one, is just a non starter for me.You need physical touch points.So who can offer a joined up online to offline experience?Physical event practices are the only ones that can do it.
And if you do that, very hard to compete with.If you don't do that, yeah, you got to keep your eye on on who else is eating the pie, I think.Cost, quality, convenience.So that's a really interesting way of looking at it.So currently we are high quality, high cost, inconvenient businesses.
If somebody else steals some of that, then what we end up becoming is the expensive, inconvenient last resort option.And that's what we don't want to be.And, and I feel like we've kind of some of those negative comments that we do see out in the world about us as a profession.
Maybe it stems from that because people experience that to say, well, don't.In fact, that's one of the issues that I have with working as an emergency vet.I've always said it, how nice would it be to have a job where you service people who want to see you and who want to give you the money because you give them joy where it's with us.It's like, don't want to be that.
It's not a purchase.They wanted to, you know, you have to deal with that emotion of shit, It's a Sunday.I'm here giving a lot of money that I don't feel like and I'm kind of annoyed about the whole thing.But I think in some very real way, they do want to be there because there have been attempts over the years to provide digital equivalents on pets.
And so I remember there's this Ted talk out there about this pet robotic dinosaur called Pleo.And the creator of Pleo thought they'd solved it in terms of pet ownership.Because Pleo, he responds to you, provides companionship, provides company, but never needs you to wake up early to take Cleo for a walk, never going to pee on your rug, never going to get sick and require an emergency visit the veterinarian, right?
No one bought it because what they thought were the bugs were actually the features of pet ownership.Getting up early in the morning to let my pet out to the toilet gives me a sense of purpose in my life.Dispensing care to another being gives me a sense of fulfillment and purpose, right?
And so I think like the psychological framing of pet ownership is just super interesting.When I studied zoology at Cambridge and one of the questions was why would people dispense care to non kin, right?And they're talking about meerkats.But a really interesting example of that is humans owning pets.
Why the heck do we do it?And we should ask ourselves that because it would explain so much of the interactions we have and the relationships that we have and the business models we create.Fascinating.That's a I'm going to have to Mull that over that idea of maybe they do want to be there.Maybe that inconvenience or perceived inconvenience, it's there because it gives them purpose and they and they take some sense of joy or pleasure or at least having the ability to care for this thing that they love is gives them a little of a kick, even though they bitch about it on social media.
Yeah, of course these are unhappy stories sometimes and you're not hoping that happens to your pet.But in, in a very real sense, being there when you're needed is just is, is an incredible thing to feel.And we feel that it's like new professionals often and pet owners want to feel that too, right?They want to feel like they're doing the right thing by this creature that they've taken some responsibility for.
Yeah.All right.So tell me more about Pits app.So the stuff we're talking about when I go through your website and and your online presence, you keep talking about the clicks and bricks.Is that what we've been talking about?Whereas we have the bricks, but we lack on the clicks.It'll be more just give us a call and come in and we'll have face to face human interaction.
But we could get better at providing a a digital service.Am I understanding clicks and bricks correctly?Yeah.Yeah, exactly.This joined up online to offline experience.So it's not about trying to pretend pets are digital beings and do everything online is about respecting the fact that physical examination is still an important thing and so you still need those physical touchpoints.
But by the way, online touchpoints are a part of life now.It's not virtual reality versus physical reality.It's just this weird, wonderful joined up reality that we all live in.We should take the most zoomed out holistic view of the client experience that we provide because we have to bring the client along with us if our expertise is going to benefit any patient ever, any pet ever, right?
So we deal with everything on the anything client facing where these expectations are going up at an incredible pace.And it's hard for a business to try and keep up.What our job is that pets up is to innovate on behalf of everything and provide them with the tools that they need to try and meet and exceed those expectations.
So we're a client communication platform.It's two way chat, it's a point of booking, it's reminders, it's subscription, Wellness plans, home delivery, loyalty plans, all that sort of consumer facing stuff.Trying to do that really well in a way that also benefits the Vetney team because Vetney teams being stripped, they have every right to ask what's in it for me.
And they probably don't ask that often enough.But if you're putting them in control of their workflows, if you're giving them more time to respond, if you're reducing the pressure off the telephones, reducing the number of missed calls, you're actually benefiting the Vetney team as well.And so again, it takes us back to those win, win, win scenarios.
So what does it look like?Is it instead of a ringing phone, you have an automated booking system for people who can and want to book their own appointments.And then if there's a question or something, you get a message on a messaging platform of some sort pops up and there's still a nurse or a vet on the other end.
So basically the way that lets you triage your phone calls or your incoming and deal with it in an appropriate time when it suits you better, rather than in the middle of surgery having to Missus Smith wants to know what should she do?Fluffy's doing this.And this is to say, well, I'm going to sit down later when I have my tea and and then reply and, and you're still then physically reply.
Do you call back or do you message back or what?What does it look like?Usually it would message back and if it's an emergency, generally it's still great to use the phone.But even in emergency contacts, you're going to do a lot of inpatient updates.And one of the things that I used to hate is the games of phone tag.
I don't know if you, if you crack this you of, of what you say when you admit a patient that stops them from calling you.I'd say no news is good news.Don't call us.We'll call you in the most polite way possible.They always call and they call exactly when you said when you're in the middle of surgery, scrapping up surgery, taking blood from a fractious cat.
So you say, I'll call you back.You call them back.Did they answer?No, You hit voicemail.And I've left some beautifully crafted voicemail messages in my time, not that anyone would know because no one listens to them.They call you back again and it's just this game of phone tag, right?And so eliminating that, you can just snap a quick photo of the patient having recovered from surgery, looking you very much alive.
Send that on the chat at the time of your choosing.It delights the pet owner because what are they worried about?They've got anxiety around how's my pet doing?And they get to see that pet and they get to see some of the stuff that the nurses are doing.Well, when I was working as a vet, I never said.
And by the way, on recovery, at the appropriate moment, the nurse hand fed your pet some chicken with the beautiful photos you see of that happening.And the way that bonds the clients, the whole of the vetting team.And they actually see the quality of care being delivered.And it takes, you know, 10 seconds to do.
And it's at a time that you control.These are the kind of conveniences you can construct on both sides of the equation.Where where I work now, we do some of that stuff, but not on a single platform.So we'll send photos via text message or things like that.Little extra touch points and people do appreciate it.
But with this, is it a convenient all in one people you know from a client perspective, do you download the app and then pick your vet clinic or how do they interact with us through the platform?So when it comes to chatting, they can chat by two ASMS text, so you can chat with everyone on day one.
But we also do a really good job of getting pet owners engaged deeper introduced ecosystem by getting them onto the app.So 70 to 80% of your pet owners will will get on the app and prefer to communicate through that means.And then for the vetting team, it's collaboration across the team.So your reception team are on there, your nursing team on there, your vetting team are on there.
And you can hand off chats back and forth between each other.You can take payments, you can use template messages.We have AI integration that's a copilot suggesting a response for you.If you're, if you've got writer's block that you can tag all your medication requests and then do all your medication requests in one go rather than having to constantly context switch.
So it's just very focused on how do we make this work and make it convenient for the vetting team in the vetting context.The AI line there that you said you have some AI support, I think about that a lot.When it became a thing, was it last year?I did think long and hard about where, where does that leave us eventually?
Because I feel like to some extent, a lot of that trust that we have as a profession, as veterinarians specifically, is as the guardians of information.So you give me money and I'll tell you the shit that I know through years of study and years of experience, but information is going to become better and better and more easily accessible and cheaper and free because you can already, I, I test it like I do some clinical stuff.
I'm like, I, I want to quickly look for information and I'll ask my GPS and it'll pop up information.Where does this fit into A, us as a profession and B, for you as a business?Like, are we going to rely more and more on that?And then I suppose the third part of the question is where does that leave us as a profession with if we're no longer the guidance of information, then who are we?
Yeah.And our approach to AI is very much humans in the loop.So we will suggest a response, but if any professional has to choose to use that response and hit send, they can edit that response, they can delete that response.And I think that's really important to recognize that where we are with this AI sometimes gives very bad answers.
It sometimes gives brilliant answers.And what we see, we've got lots of data on this now showing the best customer feedback comes from a collaboration between AI and vending team members.So where there's been an AI generated response that vending team members have made an edit to creates the best customer prints.
And you can think why, you know, speeder response when you're busy, the AI layers on some more of the empathetic, softer touch stuff that you might cut when you're busy, those sorts of things.I think Human in the loop is going to be there for the foreseeable in terms of us being gatekeepers.
Always thought it was more as curators because when I was a new graduate veterinarian and out in China on my own away from a lot of people I knew in a different time zone, Google was a very good friend.And I used to say that was my superpower.That's what you're paying me for, is my Googling ability.
Not that you know it because I wouldn't necessarily tell you I'm going out back to just do some Googling, but I would and that's valuable.My curation of the information that is out there, whether it's available via search engine or GPT has value.I think vet school sets us up to error in our in this direction.
We think the value is how much we managed to remember because we're constantly tested on how quickly can you memorize and regurgitate knowledge.And that's how you get through this.The vet school gatekeeper of your vet me professional membership as you when you come out into practice, I think it's much more about knowing what you need to know when you need to know it.
And that is a kind of expertise in and of itself.And I think ChatGPT is just another version of that.I don't think AI is going to replace the human.I think that the current line that you're meant to say is that AI won't replace the veterinarian, but AI augmented veterinarians will replace veterinarians that ignore it.
I don't think that's true either.Like you'd think by now every veterinary clinic would have a digital system, a record, paperless, have, you know, an app in there, etcetera.Plenty of things are doing just fine without it.So it's this should not be done by threat or fear.
What we should do is just think back to the patient.Does this enrich our ability to serve our patients?Does this make us better patient advocates or worse patient advocates?I think there's a way to use it with all the hallucination and bias and all these things that would make us work patient advocates, but there's a way, there's an opportunity to engage with us in a way that makes us better and, and, and that's what we'll try to do.
I like that you said so we're not actually the gatekeepers of information.We're curators, right?I like the word you said curation going well, what's valid?Because there's two, the problem in the world is there's too much information, but we have the skill set and the understanding.So maybe we also the, the curators and we understanders of say, well, what's relevant because here's all this information, what's relevant in this patient?
I have the experience and the knowledge.I actually, because I, I do clinical podcast as well.Clinic.My business is clinical education podcast.And when I started playing with AII actually had a bit of a, an existential crisis of going, well, I kind of sell information for a living.
You know, there's this thing that's going to make that null and void.But then I had to rethink.And it's not the podcasts are not, I don't sell information.We don't, you don't listen to my clinical podcasts to learn more facts.It's about deeper understanding so that you can decide what's relevant, what's important.And what do I do?
I like your answer.Exactly.There's the, the, the way of framing this I think is really useful is like there's data and then there's information.You need a ton of data to get a pound of information or whatever.And you can keep going with this hierarchy because you got information and then you got knowledge.
You got knowledge, then you got understanding.You got understanding, then you got wisdom.And no one can afford to be wise in every domain that life requires of you.In fact, some of us fail to be wise in anyone domain, Right.I'm still working on it myself.And so the, the idea that expertise is going to disappear, I just, I don't buy it.
But yeah, there needs to be a little bit of humility to say actually we're curating a journey for you rather than dictating.Because any layperson will be able to arrive at an opinion, but not all opinions are created equal.And and how do I demonstrate to you that this is the the wise way to proceed based on understanding of the knowledge that you've gained through the information informed by that data?
Right, Stephane.So I, I made a note here based on your blog posts and you're writing about bottlenecks.I wanted to say, tell me more about bottlenecks.Have we already covered that to some extent or is there more to say about bottlenecks in red business?Well, I think it's about holding ourselves accountable in in business of because we have very operationally complex businesses.
The job of operating a vetting business, managing a vetting business can feel like spinning plates and we've got to spend all the baits because all the baits are important.But what this idea of bottlenecks is part of this broader idea of the theory of constraints does is it says you have one bottleneck in any system at any one time.
You always have a bottleneck, but only one.And you need to direct all your efforts at solving for that bottleneck because if you're solving for anything other than the weakest link in the chain, you are not actually making the chain stronger.You may actually be making the chain weaker by improving something other than the weakest link, by solving for something other than your one bottleneck.
So that's the idea there.And the thing that keeps very business management geeks like me happy is you do always have a bottleneck, right?So as soon as you solve for one, another one will pop up and we get to creatively problem solve against.We've got identify that one and solve for that one, right?What are bottlenecks that exist in red hospitals?
It's not that obvious that we're not aware of.I think the biggest bottleneck, the most common bottleneck, is that it is the pet owner that decides which pet issues are presented to us, that the pet owner is not always the best place to reside.
I think that is such a big bottleneck because it means that even though we feel stretched and time poor, we often spend a lot of our time on relatively trivial issues.And so we're not always directing our time to the most urgent, most important in the most effective way.
So I would say that's a pretty high level of zoom, but if you're thinking of the the professional sector as a as a single system, I'd say that would be the most common bottleneck.How do we solve that one?Because you, when you mention it again, absolutely.We we've all wasted time trying to convince somebody that the nipple is not the problem, but the horrible teeth that that is a problem.
Or pick your metaphor.I think that is try and reduce the barriers, the pet owners surfacing the issues to us in a way that we can conveniently filter and then cherry pick those patient advocacy opportunities that actually need to come into the clinic.That's how I would say say we do it because for example, the under medicalisation of cats, we see cats a lot as kittens and then we don't see them again until their kidneys are failing and all kinds of other badness is happening to them.
Why does that happen?There seems to be like almost a stereotype that's like, well, cat owners just don't love their cats as much.That's nonsense.That's not why they they don't come in to see us because they think they're doing the right thing.They think they are protecting themselves, their pet and the vetney team from a stressful and inconvenient experience that probably isn't needed.
But what we've found on the Pets app is if you give these same cat owners the opportunity in a relatively effortless way to surface their issue with their cat to the vetney team, the vetney team says actually you should come in.They're just as likely to comply with that recommendation as a dog owner.
And so it's just that the barrier, the effort barrier for a cat owner bringing their cat in on the off chance something might be wrong, it's higher.If you can bring that initial effort barrier down and inform that decision, you will be a better patient advocate for your feline patients.
For the, you don't have to come in interactions that that your clients have on Pets app or our clients have it on Pets app.Do they get charged for that?Like is there a membership fee or something?Like how do you structure it because those things take time.Still a lot of the whinge about their practices.We get all these time wasting questions on the phone and you go, well I wish I could charge for that.
And this is the operational complexity pieces.Different clinics make this work in different ways, but membership is a super compelling way to do it.And if you want Petronas to serve some more issues through you create a membership that's less oriented around multi paracetatides and more oriented around unlimited consoles.
And lots of vets are worried about the edge cases of what about the pet owner with eight dogs and they're all large dogs.And it's like, that's where I say, you know, that's sometimes you just have to make it work for the majority and the edge cases, they'll sort themselves out.And so if you offer unlimited consults as part of your subscription offering, those don't have to be in person consults.
Those can just be, hey, what do you think about this lump on my cat?Oh, that's just your cat's nipple.Don't worry about it.That's counts as a consult.It's us, the Venti team that come out with a rigid definition of what a consultation is and have we dispense sufficient value to charge for it.
And one way of getting around that is exactly as you say, you bundle it into a subscription.But you can absolutely charge for this stuff too.You can charge for chat access to the Venti team, you can charge for video consoles.You can make a business work by providing it for free because it is such more convenient way to review cases than the telephone.
It can still be incredibly operationally efficient to do a non medical triage of these issues remotely and cherry pick the patient advocacy opportunities, avoiding lost leader remote consults, avoiding missed calls, and monetizing where you can actually do something for a patient.
So any number of models can work, but I think you're right that the subscription option is a very compelling 1.What do the majority of your current users do under the hand of this?The majority are just glad to see a 85% reduction in their missed phone calls.Frankly, you know, their phone stops ringing you off the hook.
You get the first sort of 20% of your pet owners onto the app and knowing that you can engage with all of them via SMS text, you get that 20% on and you see that reduction in the inbound phone call volumes.You see that reduction in the missed calls.And there's just a little bit of Zen that comes into the practice and that the event team sees the what's in it for me and this critic's virtuous cycle of we prefer to engage in this way where appropriate.
And so then you start seeing these outbound chats being started with the inpatient updates that use case being layered on and it sort of takes on from there.I'd say the most mature users, they are the ones offering the subscriptions, offering the unlimited consults, using the digital touch point to actually determine which of the other richest patient, obviously opportunities that actually need a physical touch point and everything in between.
I hope you don't mind more, more practical questions for people who are thinking about this.How do you train your clients to use it that when you call the clinic, do you have a automated answer machine that says you can't hold to speak to?But we also have this and this available.How do you get people onto using the digital platform?
They're so trained to just be able to call at any time.The biggest training has been the pandemic.It's made millennials out of everyone.I mean, I know about a 90 year old pets app user in Illinois who has mobility issues and she has a German shepherd dog with mobility issues and she's on the out.She's using it.
And you think of the pandemic.I'm sat here in the US, obviously my parents are in the UK, They've got grandchildren here in the US.People are engaging with this kind of technology all the time and they don't see why they wouldn't be able to do it in the event of context.So it's not that they need educating particularly.
It's almost like this is an expectation that they have that their surprise hasn't been there until now.How we get them deeply digitally engaged with the Vetniclec and and digitally bonded with the Vetniclec is we will send out invites with a magic link in the invite to the pet owner that pre links them to the correct vetney clinic.
So this is not a marketplace where every vetney clinic is listed.We really want to honour the relationship between that client and that vetney team.So they're pre linked to the vetney clinic and their their pets information.The patient details are pre loaded in the app for them just for them to accept and agree that they want it in there.
And so there's this seamless onboarding process for the pet owner, too.Really cool.We can chat about this for days, but I, I just like the concept and I think it's inevitable where I have to move there.There's just so many tools that we can use these days to make what we do better and easier and more fun.
That's so cool that you're offering it.Was there anything that you that I haven't asked you that you love talking about?Red stuff, soapboxes or etcetera.I think I've got enough soapboxes through the conversation here, but I'm not happy to talk about.As you can see, I'm a big geek for all this stuff.
I just think these are such a wonderful set of professions.That's a wonderful sector to be in.There's so much opportunity to do good.I just, I love it.And the people, I mean, the people in this sector just wonderful.I feel very, very, very privileged to, like I said, naively landed here and living this life really doing what I'm doing.
All right, well, let's move to our wrap up questions.Are you a podcast listener?I am an avid podcast listener, yeah.Favourites What's current 2024 favourites?Oh my days, you're really going to show me up.Me and my wife, big fans of Econ, talks with Russ Roberts.
Not about any podcast, but it's normally about economics, but it talks about all kinds of different stuff with a slight economic skew.And I'm not doing a good job of selling it, but it's many, many interesting lessons.Yeah, the title doesn't really grab me.
I would really like.And the intro doesn't.His voice is monotone, but there's incredible content on there.See, this wasn't why I love this question because there's so many podcasts like that I will never even give a second glance.But if I have somebody like you who says have a listen, then I will.
I'll give it a try and maybe I'll find something new.Anything else?Yeah, Desert Island Disc is I'm a big fan of Desert Island Disc where someone comes on and chooses their favorite tracks.I I love that.I like taking a long bath and the episode of Desert Island Disc.That's my way to unwind.
I haven't come across that.Is it a music?Let's listen to songs and yeah, yeah.So you're asked to choose the 8 tracks that you'd want to take with you to a desert island if you were to be sort of shipwrecked on a desert island.And then if you go and save one from the waves, which one would it be?And you're allowed to take, I think you're given your preferred holy book, the complete works of Shakespeare.
You're given one more book and a luxury item.It can't be anything practical.And it's just such a great storytelling framework.And you just get so many different interesting people on there and you get to hear about their lives and, you know, the bad decisions they've made and the interesting stories they have.That's what you that's what you're talking.
About that's going to be next on my.I think I'll put that ahead of Econ to my next.List.Yeah, I would.I would, to be fair, all right, my personal question.So the personal question is I get the previous guest to ask a question of my next next guest not knowing who it is.
Which was tell me about your best day inventory science so far.I think, I don't know if I have a specific day, but there is a feeling that thinking about my favorite days in inventory practice about is that feeling of flow.
And it would usually involve working multiple consult rooms and you know, running the blood tests while the client is waiting, delivering the blood results while having this other consult on the go.We're just an incredible team making that possible.So you know, so much needs to go right, So many little things need to go right for you to get into that state of flow.
And you can feel it as a team.I used to row at university.If you row and you're not In Sync and you're not very good, it is miserable.But when you get it right, you can just feel that you're going to feel that pride.And that's what a good day inventing practice feels like to me.You can just feel that the whole team is in float.
That does then mean that very little needs to go wrong to throw everything out.All right, that's the flip side.But the good days, you feel like you're rowing in an 8 and you're perfectly SAT the boat and that, that feels nice.So cool.I've been thinking about flow inventory science this week, actually, and it's interesting and I think it's important for vets.
Yeah, and it's limited to clinical practice to discover the things that give you that flow feeling because it's so individual and temperament and nature dependent.So what you're describing there, that's quite AI find that the emergency vets who love emergency, they experience flow in that when everything's chaos, but actually they're floating, they're coasting along and putting out fires in a, in an effective team bound way.
And then you have so many vets, that's their nightmare.They want to see Acorn cell and work systematically and do this thing.So you get your other vets who experience flow in surgery.You've got a complicated thing and you're solving a problem and you're working with your hands and that's your flow.And I think it's so important to figure out what is it in your job and in life that gives you that feeling of this is where I need to be.
This is where I, I need to spend more time doing this and then follow that sensation to build your unique niche career.I think it's so important.Anderson And for me, it's the people, it's those team dynamics, it's that all coming together in the right way at the right time.I always say that mountain grillers are my second favorite animal because my favorite animals are people.
You know, I think there's a humility in that is realizing that that we've got a little bit too tropocentric, too human obsessed because we are just animals like all the other species out there.But also we are interesting and peculiar and great in a lot of ways.And when you see that sort of coming together, I think that's magical.
I think there's a lot of vets out there who who feel like humans are their least favorite species.Wait, it's been a journey here, I'm not going to lie.All right, Tom, last one, the you have an opportunity to speak to all of the veteran new grads of 2024 and give them one little bit of advice in a couple of minutes.
What do you tell them?And it can be vet related or it can be life related.Yeah, it is a magic moment every year that we get to welcome a new group of people to the profession, right?I think like probably they'd be better not hearing any advice that I'd have to offer and just find in their own way.
Don't scare the half asleep tiger, but it's microchip.There's some basic advice you can pick up.Yeah, I think they already know better.I think I'm alone on that one.There's maybe because we just talked about Roman.There's a line from my favorite poet, Audrey Lorde.She said don't make waves is good advice from a leaky boat.
Don't make waves is good advice from a leaky boat.So I would just encourage new vector graduates make waves, sink the boat, make your own boat.Just shake it up, mix it up, but do it with humility and awareness of what you don't know and where you are that you're going to fail.
Just fail better.Fail better than you did last night.Fail better than we did.And I think if while doing that, if while trying and failing, you can find contentment but never complacency, if you can give yourself the opportunity to rest, but never on your laurels, I think our future will just be so bright.
I'm so optimistic about our profession, but I'm also kind of impatient.And that's why I say to these new grads, make waves.Show us how it's done.Love it.That was spectacular.Thank you so much for your time and thank you for working on these things that annoy us and that are so important.
It's great work.I personally completely pumped about it.I get so excited about finding because I've been a vet, a clinical vet for for 25 years.I've been struggling with these same problems and actually starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel in some of these problems to say, well, here's a possible solution there.
These are ways of dealing with this.You don't have to be stuck with it.And you, you, we can get better at it.So fantastic.Thank you so much, Tom.Thank you for having me on and thank you for facilitating these conversations.I'm a avid listener.

Dr. Thom Jenkins