June 10, 2024

#123: Beyond Clinical Practice: Harnessing Your Secret Veterinary Superpowers For A Diverse Career, And Leveraging Tough Times To Fight Self-Limiting Beliefs. With Dr Stephanie Morley

#123: Beyond Clinical Practice: Harnessing Your Secret Veterinary Superpowers For A Diverse Career, And Leveraging Tough Times To Fight Self-Limiting Beliefs. With Dr Stephanie Morley

This episode dives into the highs and lows of a 'squiggly' veterinary career, guided by the story of a professional who has seamlessly blended veterinary practice, entrepreneurship, and business development. We explore the contrasting mindsets between lifelong veterinary dreamers and those who found the profession later in life, shedding light on how these perspectives shape resilience, burnout, and adaptability in the field.
Dr Stephanie unpacks the perfectionist tendencies ingrained in veterinarians and how these ideals collide with the unpredictable, messy realities of daily practice. The discussion also uncovers the hidden opportunities for veterinarians to apply their unique skill sets—like decision-making, leadership, and sales—in industries beyond animal care.
Alongside personal advice on fostering self-worth, positive self-talk, and overcoming limiting beliefs, listeners will gain practical strategies for navigating the emotional hurdles of the profession. The episode wraps up with a glimpse into cutting-edge veterinary medical devices, showing how veterinarians can use their expertise to innovate and shape the future of the field.

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Season 1

Have you ever considered doing something other than clinical veterinary practice, only to get stuck at 'but what else could I do? The only skill I have is fixing sick animals!' Dr Steph Morley will show how how wrong you are.

You'll learn how the skills and attributes that make you a good vet are highly valued outside of the vet clinic, and how to re-write your CV to make it applicable to any industry.

And if you're not considering leaving practice - great! This conversation will help you better value your skills and knowledge and change the negative self talk that devalues your skills and makes you feel like an imposter.

Dr Stephanie Morley's career has included a degree in hospitality and business and working in clinical practice and practice management, and in lab animal medicine. This led her first major pivot into a role as the Associate Director of Business Development at the University of Michigan, and then to the entrepreneurial life as the Co-Founder and President of Zomedica. Dr Steph is currently the President of Vetlen Advanced Veterinary Devices, the team behind an innovative new antibiotic delivery device for veterinarians.

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Topics and Time Stamps

04:57 Your Unique Veterinary Superpowers

15:55 Overcoming Self-Doubt and Limiting Beliefs

25:00 Translating Veterinary Skills to Other Careers

36:42 Networking Tips for Introverts

38:27 Transitioning from Clinical Practice

47:19 Innovative Antibiotic Delivery Device

01:07:28 Advice for New Veterinary Graduates

 

The Reality of Veterinary Burnout and How to Navigate It

Veterinary burnout is a significant issue stemming from a confluence of factors, including the demanding nature of the profession, emotional stress, and financial pressures. The episode highlights the prevalence of burnout among veterinarians who entered the field with a lifelong passion, only to be confronted with the harsh realities of veterinary practice.
The inherent vulnerability and empathy of veterinarians contribute to their susceptibility to burnout. Their deep care for animals, coupled with the constant exposure to suffering, illness, and death, takes an emotional toll. Additionally, they face the unique challenge of operating in a cash-based business model, requiring them to "sell" their recommendations to clients, which can feel incongruous with their compassionate nature. This financial burden, particularly in the context of student loan debt, exacerbates the emotional strain.
The episode suggests several strategies for navigating and mitigating veterinary burnout. These include:
  • Shifting self-talk: Cultivating positive self-talk and challenging limiting beliefs about self-worth can help veterinarians better cope with the emotional and financial pressures of the profession. This involves consciously changing the internal narrative to one of self-compassion and recognising their inherent value. Techniques like identifying and challenging limiting beliefs through evidence-based inquiry can help reframe negative thought patterns.
  • Recognising and leveraging transferable skills: Understanding that veterinary skills extend beyond clinical practice can open doors to alternative career paths. Veterinarians possess valuable transferable skills, such as decision-making under pressure, problem-solving, communication, and leadership, which are applicable in various fields. By exploring these options, veterinarians can potentially find more fulfilling and less stressful career paths.
  • Prioritising self-care and well-being: While not explicitly mentioned in the sources, prioritising self-care is crucial for preventing and recovering from burnout. This encompasses activities that promote physical, mental, and emotional health, such as exercise, mindfulness, hobbies, and spending time with loved ones. Building a support network of colleagues, friends, and family can also provide invaluable emotional support and coping mechanisms.
  • Advocating for systemic change: Although not discussed in the sources, advocating for systemic changes within the veterinary profession is crucial for addressing the root causes of burnout. This includes advocating for fair compensation, improved working conditions, access to mental health resources, and promoting a culture that values veterinarian well-being.
Ultimately, addressing veterinary burnout requires a multifaceted approach, encompassing individual coping mechanisms, exploring alternative career paths, and advocating for systemic changes within the profession.

Finding Fulfillment Inside and Outside of Veterinary Practice

Finding fulfilment within the veterinary profession and beyond necessitates a multifaceted approach, encompassing a shift in mindset, leveraging transferable skills, and prioritising well-being.
Embracing a Shift in Mindset:
  • Challenge limiting beliefs: Veterinarians, often driven by a deep passion for animals, may enter the field with romanticised notions. The episode suggests that these individuals are more susceptible to disillusionment and burnout when confronted with the challenging realities of veterinary practice. It's crucial to challenge limiting beliefs about self-worth and embrace the concept that veterinary skills are valuable beyond the clinic.
  • Embrace the "MacGyver" mentality: Veterinarians, often faced with limited resources and diverse patient needs, develop a remarkable ability to improvise and find solutions, a characteristic referred to as "MacGyverism" in the episode. Recognising and valuing this ability to think outside the box and adapt to challenging situations can be empowering and translate well to other fields.
  • Reframe challenges as opportunities: The episode highlights the importance of viewing seemingly negative experiences as opportunities for growth and learning. By reframing challenges as stepping stones, veterinarians can build resilience and find meaning in their work, both within and outside of clinical practice.
  • Cultivate self-compassion and realistic expectations: The inherent vulnerability and empathy that draw many to veterinary medicine can also make them susceptible to burnout. Accepting imperfections, celebrating successes, and acknowledging limitations are crucial for maintaining well-being.
Leveraging Transferable Skills:
  • Identify and articulate transferable skills: Veterinarians possess a wealth of skills applicable to various careers. These include decision-making in high-stress situations, communication, problem-solving, leadership, and adaptability. By reframing their experiences and highlighting these skills on resumes and in interviews, veterinarians can effectively showcase their value to potential employers in diverse fields.
  • Explore diverse career paths: The episode encourage veterinarians to explore opportunities beyond clinical practice, leveraging their skills in areas like research, pharmaceuticals, medical devices, business development, education, and consulting.
  • Network and seek mentorship: Engaging with professionals in different fields can broaden perspectives and open doors to new opportunities. Networking can help identify potential career paths and gain valuable insights into the skills and experience required for a successful transition.
Prioritising Well-being:
  • Set boundaries and prioritise self-care: The demands of veterinary practice can easily lead to neglecting personal well-being. Establishing boundaries, prioritising self-care activities, and seeking support from colleagues, friends, and family are essential for preventing and managing burnout.
  • Embrace continuous learning: Staying engaged in professional development and pursuing interests outside of veterinary medicine can foster a sense of purpose and personal growth.
  • Find meaning and purpose: Reflecting on values and identifying what brings joy and satisfaction is essential for finding fulfilment, whether within or outside of veterinary practice.
Ultimately, finding fulfilment as a veterinarian involves embracing a growth mindset, leveraging transferable skills, and prioritising personal well-being. This multifaceted approach enables veterinarians to navigate the challenges of the profession while exploring diverse career paths and discovering meaningful ways to contribute their unique talents to the world.
Have you ever considered working outside of clinical practice?Maybe you are 5 or 10 years out and you've tried several different practices and you've done the coaching and the programs, but still you can't quite find your happy place in a traditional veterinary job.Or maybe there's a practical reason why clinical practice doesn't fit this stage of your life.
You know, kids or partners or work commitments.Whatever the reason, you might be wondering what else is out there.But.And I know this feeling.Where do you even begin?Like all you know is how to fix sick animals, right?
Wrong.In this conversation, Doctor Steph Morley will tell you that you are actually pretty fabulous at many other things, and that you have skills and attributes that make you super useful outside of the vet clinic.You just don't know it yet.So much of what I did in practice every day, I still relate to it.
And so if you can recognize that what you're doing in that exam room or in that treatment room or in that, OR actually has translation into other potential things outside of your job, all of a sudden you'll start feeling like, oh Dang, I'm pretty good.
I'm Hubert Emstrat and you are listening to The Vet Vault, where we pick up the loose ends of the veterinary profession to unravel the common threads that will help you build a meaningful, fulfilling career and life with a vet degree in your hand.And in this episode, you will learn how to totally rewrite your CV to make it applicable to any industry with a long list of translatable skills that you didn't know that you had.
You'll find out why you should and how to network.And you'll hear about a strength that you probably have that will serve you in any job that also has the potential to hurt you.But this one is not just for people who want to leave practice.The topics we discussed with Doctor Steph will show you how to accurately value yourself and your knowledge, which of course helps with those money conversations in practice and how to change that negative self talk that devalues your skills and makes you feel like an imposter.
Our guest is Doctor Stephanie Morley.Doctor Steph's career started with an undergraduate degree in hospitality and business because it suited her real goal, which was downhill skiing, but she did a complete and fairly spontaneous switch to vet science for no other reason than.One of those serendipitous conversations I was having with someone where it was like, well, if you could do anything, what would it be?
And I said, I don't know, being a vet could be cool.Literally, that was it.That's what changed the trajectory of my life.This led to a few years in clinical practice and in a practice management externship with a corporate hospital, but practical reasons like kids and a non compete led to a pivot into lab animal medicine.
And once I pivoted that first time, life just kept pivoting and squiggly because I at that point became more open to other possibility.And just kind of kept leveraging my background for things that I don't think I could have otherwise imagined.
Since then, Steph has had roles as the Associate Director of Business Development at the University of Michigan, the Co founder and president of Zometica, an ongoing role as a business advisor and coach for start-ups, and then eventually to a current role as President of Wetland Advanced Veterinary Devices.
And in this episode, she'll tell us a bit more about the things that she's working on in this role.OK, I'll leave you in the capable hands of Doctor Stephanie Morley.And why sitting with discomfort and seeing where it takes us can sometimes be a good thing.Why the bad times might just be the prelude to the good stuff later, even if you can't see it.
And much, much more.You have such a different background to the average vet story.As you said, there's so many vets who go into it because it's always been the thing they wanted to do.
They have this idea and sometimes romanticized idea of vet life.And they, and then the the fact that you say from the beginning you were interested in entrepreneurship and business and practice ownership, whereas for most of us that's the last thing.It's animals, animals, animals.
I'm so focused on making animals better, being James, Harriet or whoever.And then only much later, this has become a, oh, hey, there's this business thing attached to this thing that I do and people that, you know, the, the hospitality side of it.That's such a good insight.Have you seen patterns in your career with people you've worked with or mentored?
Or do you see trends or patterns between those two groups of vets and vets students, the ones that have always wanted to be vets and are passionate?And then potentially because I have a theory that potentially those people are more likely to be disillusioned.When the reality of MetLife hits them versus somebody who goes, well, if I'm going to work, I read a quote that you said in one of your other interviews.
Well, if I have to work for a living, working with animals could be pretty cool instead of going into it kind of blind.Does it, does it help?Yeah, I do think it helps.I mean, I know plenty of people in my my circles who never wanted to be anything other a veterinarian are very happy with their careers or they're stressed by their careers because just.
Being a professional is stressful regardless of what a professional is.But they don't regret, you know, becoming a veterinarian.But I do think of the people that I've talked to who are disillusioned and are burnt out and, you know, not in love with the track that they chose.
Most of those people have been, actually, I can't think of anyone who wasn't dedicated to being a veterinarian their whole lives.And, you know, I don't really have good advice for that other than to say.It's a phenomenal career.It's a phenomenal field.
The veterinarians are just the most exceptional group of professionals I've ever known.And I've gotten to work with a lot of professionals, a lot of pH DS and M DS and D OS and, you know, engineers.And there's just a characteristic and veterinarians that's so beautiful and exceptional.
But I think that's also the, the threat a little bit because we are so as a, as a species, we tend to be soft in just the right ways, you know, which means we can get hurt.And that's a vulnerability that you don't see in a lot of other professions.
And that's the vulnerability that I think ends up really causing suffering in a lot of us.It's because it just didn't turn out the way we wanted it to or we just couldn't do it perfectly.We're, we're perfectionists, right?You have to be to get into vet school.
But the life of practicing medicine is not for perfectionists.It's for people who are willing to try and fail and learn.And that is not how we're, we are brought up.We're brought up to do perfectly.Get those AS, get those AS get those AS do those hours, everything you need to do to get into vet school.
Versus people who maybe are doing other things or don't know what they want to do, then they're open to a lot of other things or they're somebody like me who had.I don't, I didn't grow up wanting to be an entrepreneur.I actually didn't because multiple people in my family own small businesses and I saw how hard it was.
So I was like, I want a job where I get a paycheck every two weeks, you know, but I respected business as a concept.I respected that if you make something or, or you provide a service, people will pay you for it.That's.The gist of business, and I always respected that, but I think people who go into business just have a little bit more of that tendency.
I don't know exactly where this is going to take me 'cause it can take you anywhere.It's a really general degree.So they're kind of open to like what life could hand them, you know?And it's not necessarily, I mean, you probably heard the saying it's not about what you know, it's who you know, right?
So Business School teaches you.It's not about what you know, it's about who you know.So you have to hone networking skills and interpersonal skills in order to be successful, and that's not something that we really work to train veterinarians or people who spend their lifetime trying to get into that school.
Yeah.That was one of the questions I wanted to ask you because what going back to what we just said about the classic veterinarian perfectionist and that little bit of magic that you mentioned, it's so interesting that you say you've worked with so many other professionals and there is this uniqueness.
About vets and, and it's so hard for us because we're, we're so stuck inside the bottle of entry signs.We can't read the label from the outside.We don't know what it's like out there.And I've, I have had the same experience over and over and over through the podcast, mostly speaking to people who work with us as veterinarians.
So you know, accounting or property or all the other ancillary services.And if it's a business who does.They'd say insurance and they do pet insurance, but they also have like a different insurance arm or something.And all of them always say, I'm so glad I'm in the it's like they almost fight each other to do the vet stuff and you ask them why they say because I just love working with with the profession.
It's so different.People treat us with respect.They're nice.They're people who care.But it's interesting.I've never thought of that.It's that we care so damn much that that we get so hurt because the world doesn't always care back as much as we can.Yes, it's so true.
And, you know, I think that's why, you know, I've done all these different things and it's led me down my squiggly path.But really one of the soapboxes that I got to is just recognizing, like, we can get taken advantage of because of our vulnerable nature, but we also have a level of expectation on us as medical professionals that's very different than our human counterparts.
And the biggest difference in that is we are a cash based business.So if I want you to take my recommendations for ultimately my patient, which is who I care about, I have to sell you on what I'm recommending.And we don't like to be salespeople, but that's absolutely what we are.
And I think there's so many things out there.And then the other side of that is like to bring products to animals, it's a much lower bar.Not necessarily for approved drugs, but we have to use a lot of things off label, right?Because they don't make products for us.
So you get all this stuff that's being made for us where it's, it's really not good.There's no data behind it.We were trained, most of us were, many of us were trained as clinical scientists and not bench scientists or research scientists.So even interpreting data can be pretty tricky if you weren't trained on how to do it.
And so you, we just get all this stuff where it's like.It also, So what it ends up doing is it turns us into really cautious people too.We don't trust, we don't trust new things very often.I remember going to one lecture one time and it was a boarded anesthesiologist and she was talking about these protocols she used for different things.
And she's like, I tried .1 of this and .2 MLS of this on these three horses and at work and everyone's writing notes down.And then she starts talking about this new drug that's on the market and she's like, well, they only did 200 animals in the clinical trial, so the jury's still out.So everyone instantly was skeptical of this FDA approved drug that they would write down a protocol that she did on three horses and they'd use it in a heartbeat.
So as someone who's been on both sides of that equation, it's really frustrating because it's like the amount of time and money and energy it takes to.Do all of those clinical trials and do all these things to bring products to veterinary medicine appropriately.
And then to still have veterinarians be like, yeah, I don't know.I, I asked Doctor Jones, who was my professor 20 years ago, and he's never heard of it.So I'm not gonna use it.I get it.Like, I get why we're that way.It's because we've been sold so much bad stuff or we just haven't had the right things made for us, you know?
So I think that level of expectation for us.Versus our MD's friends is that we're a cash based business.We have to get our customers to trust us so that we can do the right things for our patients and then we have to justify our expense.
And that just feels gross, you know, especially when you're writing your student loan checks every month and stuff.It's really frustrating.And our MD counterparts, they still have student loans too, but they don't have to have those conversations on a daily basis.Yeah, and I think it just leads to a level of it just wears you down, you know, and it's an unfortunate thing because we are a beautiful profession.
So did you still struggle with that despite, despite your business background You did OK guys, because I'm looking for solutions because we're talking about the this problem, which is for me personally 20 something years into clinical Med practice still a problem for sure that gross feeling.
So you talked earlier about the benefits of.Doing a business degree and understanding business and stuff.And I was wondering, looking at your story, whether there would be worth for veterinarians to at some stage, whether before or after a vet degree, do a business degree.
Is it, does it make some of that easier or not really what?No, no, I mean because the business degree is just teaching you like the textbook stuff, associated business, you know, accounting, HR, finance, you know, boring stuff.The soft skills you learn in a business degree are just because of the environment you're in.
So my recommendation, I have a lot of recommendations for people to how to get more comfortable with their value.And it's particularly an issue for women.But we question our value.We, we don't, we don't own what we're worth, right.
So if someone questions you on it and says.You know, I can't believe you're charging me $800.00 for a spay, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.Whatever it might be.You just gotta own it.You gotta just tell yourself that internal conversation that you have with yourself all day, every day.
Change the script, flip the script and tell yourself you're worth it.Remind yourself you're worth it.You bring an intellectual currency to this relationship that they can't easily replace.And if they're not willing to pay it, then someone else will.
But don't undercut yourself because of that one person's.Quite honestly, most of the people I encountered in practice who were mean about it, they were probably unhappy about something else.You know that.Who knows what they stubbed their toe.
I don't know, but at that time in my life, it was.Devastating to me to have people accuse me of not caring about animals 'cause I won't do something for free.So I I don't think it's a business skill so much as a life skill, but I do think that it is something that veterinarians would benefit from if they would just recognize that and try to change that internal.
I'm a big.You know, positive self talk person cause for 46 years of my life, or I guess I haven't talked for 46 years, but for the first many decades of my life, I did not talk well to myself.And in the last few years I've really made an effort to change that.
And I think it's something that everyone could benefit from doing.And I'm also a big believer in mantras.So just stick post it notes all over to remind yourself of whatever it is you need reminding.And it won't stop people from having those gross conversations with you, but it'll change how you react to them.
Yeah.So how do you change that self talk?How how do you start believing in your value?Because if it's a deep seated thing that I'm uncomfortable charging for this or this because I feel inferior, not even say inferior, but I'm not a.Therapist.Yeah, I'm not a therapist, but I've done a lot of therapy.
And there is one concept that's called limiting beliefs.So identifying some belief that's limiting you from your greatest potential.So if you're limiting belief is that you're not valuable or you're not worth what you know, you're asking for financially, whatever that might be, then you kind of keep asking yourself, it's, it's actually really evidence based.
So people like us should really embrace it.And you ask yourself.Do I have any evidence that this is true?And then you ask yourself, do I have any evidence that's not true?If I asked people who know me and love me, would they think this statement is true?
What's another way to think about this?And then it's those new ways to think about it that allow you to start changing that talk track.Literally, if you Google limiting beliefs, you will find, you know, little worksheets on how to do this.But it's a really effective exercise for people who are data-driven because you're forcing yourself to ask for evidence as to whether what you think is true.
And every time you will find out it's just your own stupid head talking.It's your own securities, it's your own ego, it's your own fears.And you can change that, but it takes a lot of work because once you realize you, you find some core limiting belief.
Then you have to just constantly remind your conscious and your subconscious that it's not true.And that's a really challenging thing to do, particularly in difficult times.But I, I highly suggest it because when you find those things and you start breaking free of them, you know, it's, it's very freeing, but it also gives you a tool to come back to so that you can come back to it if you have it again or you're having a doubtful day or whatever it might be, but it's cloudy and you just feel down.
You can remind yourself of that, you know, and talk yourself out of it.So.I have to interrupt you with this question.Have you checked out our clinical podcasts?You are here listening to this, so I'm assuming that you're a vet.And if you're a vet, you should be staying up to date with your clinical knowledge, not just for the sake of your patients, but also for your own well-being because vetting is way more fun when you actually know your shit.
And you're here on this podcast.So I assume you like or at least are able to tolerate my voice and style of interviews.So why not combine the two?On our Clinical Podcast, I interview specialists about their topic of expertise to ask all of the questions that I've had over my 20 plus year vet career.
To provide you with the practical tips, insights, pitfalls and updates that will make you better at your job and therefore happier in your job.Which is after all, why we are all here.Full access to the Clinical Podcast is through a paid subscription.Because I do it for a job and I don't want to pepper the feed with ads.
Because A you don't like listening to ads and BI worry that it will impact the credibility of the content.And then I'll end up just talking about topics that sponsors will pay me for.Whereas in a listener support model like this one, I can talk about what's relevant and what's useful and we can talk up or bag whatever we want without worrying about upsetting the sponsors.
Go and check it out at VVN.That's VVN for vetvaultnetwork.supercast.com.Your first two weeks are free.That leads beautifully into a question that I had, but I think you may have answered it, but I'll just double check that you have fully answered it.
So again, and I researched you before, I read some other interviews with you and you told a story about during vet school on your equine rotation, it's like 5:00 or 6:00 AM in the morning.And you're alone in a stable having to take blood from a horse.
And as you said, if you're not a horsey person, you're not somebody comfortable with this.And, and you had this thought process going, why am I here doing this?I, I don't have qualifications.I don't have the skills to do this.And it's that sort of feeling that, well, there's probably some evidence at that stage in your life that you did not have the skills in the qualifications.
But then I, I, I read that and then I look at the rest of your career and, you know, founder of a.Tech business, medical tech business and new jobs and new opportunities.Do you still get that feeling sometimes when you go?Why am I here doing this?What the have the hey you do?
Yes, yes, every day.I yeah, I mean every day it.But I honestly, you know, I could throw out a bunch of mantras, but that whole concept of life begins when you live, get outside of your comfort zone and all that stuff.It's very true that every opportunity I've had that led to something really cool was because I took on a challenge of something I've never done before.
But when you do that, unless you're a super big ego person.Some some sort of pathology?Probably unless you have just this innate self-confidence, you're gonna question yourself.
I did it today.I just, my husband and I were talking about something for this current role I have and I expressed a little bit of self doubt in that too.But I caught myself, right?And the difference is, is I caught myself and said, I guess I better figure that out, right?
And I think that's, you know, part of what's so impressive about veterinarians that I'll just speak to veterinarians.I know there's other professions that would have this too, but I think it's uniquely high percentage of veterinarians that have to think outside of the box to get their patient what they need.
And call us the Macgyver's of medicine because of that old TV show with, yeah, he can make a bomb out of five ingredients kind of thing.And we've always had to be that way because nobody's making products specifically for us, or not a lot of products anyway.Or we have a Chihuahua and then we have a Great Dane, right?
I mean, they're both dogs.So what are you going to do?So we've always had to kind of MacGyver our way through doing things.We have economic constraints that impact every decision that's made as to what we can do for our patients, at least on the small animal side, but definitely economics on the large animals too.
And so when you have those variables thrown at you all the time, so it can't just be a check box.We're doing this, we're doing this, we're doing this, we're doing this, and then we'll get answers and then we'll figure out the next thing.But instead you're getting can't do these two things, but you can do these three things, but you got to do this one first 'cause otherwise if this one comes back negative, then I don't want to do these.
There's nothing textbook about what we do.So if you can stop and you can reflect on things like that and realize like I do this every day.I have to think outside of the box.Every patient I see, everything I do like be empowered by that so that the next time some random opportunity comes up or whatever, like true, I'll get outside of my box for this one.
Cause who knows what could happen 'cause I do it every day.It's it might be uncomfortable, but I'm still capable because I prove that I'm capable of it every day.I like that instead of that self doubt going, yeah, this is my jam, man.
This is what I do.This is my 'cause that's a good feeling.Every now and again in life.I, you get that opportunity where you go.I, I, I've got this.But you're right, We we do.And that's the flipping the script, right?It's looking at your experience with a different lens.
And instead of saying, OK, I can do this and I can do this, but I can't do this.Instead look at it and say, Oh my God, look at everything I can do and look how it relates to other things.You know, it's like, it's that translational skill set comment.
You know, it's absolutely I, I, I shouldn't say everything.It's bad to speak in absolutes, but so much of what I did in practice every day, I still relate to it.And so if you can recognize that what you're doing in that exam room or in that treatment room or in that, OR actually has translation into other potential things outside of your job, all of a sudden you'll start feeling like, oh, Dang, I'm pretty good.
I'm more than just the DVM, you know, I'm like this experienced wise, everything under the sun kind of person.And it's, it's really cool.You're still going to have days of doubt and everything.But if you can find those core things where you can just remind yourself like, yeah, I, I got this, I got this, then you know, but yeah, we're, we're amazing, an amazing profession.
I'd love to talk about this transferable skills because what I wanted to go with this conversation a little bit as well is for the listener who wants to leave practice for whatever reason.So you had a very practical reason why you had to leave.And some others just go on.
It's, it's just not my thing or I've had enough of it.You know, I've done it 10-15 years and it's time for a next chapter.But then that stuck feeling of, well, all I know how to do is how to treat sick animals.That's what I learned.That's my skill.I have a, my stamp of approval says veterinarian.And everything outside of that feels very, very foreign and very scary.
And that feeling of I, I don't know, do that.It's very common.Like I see it on the social media chats and lots of my colleagues and friends they've spoken to and they go, yeah, I want to do something else, but I don't know what I can do because I don't have any other skills for you.I love that you say you use your veterinary skills every day in your completely different ball game.
Now, do you have some of those skills that you can encourage us to people listening to this to go, oh, oh, that's not that's not a skill I knew I had.What sort of skills have we got?Yeah.So if you think about like writing a resume and you're trying to tell somebody who's not a veterinarian, like how your skills apply, that's how I think of translational skills, right?
So a really obvious one to me is that you are a an excellent decision maker in high risk scenarios.You have a bleed out in surgery, right?You have a animal you you can't find a bleeder and it's a totally stressful situation and you have to make a decision on what you're going to do in a split second.
Well, decisiveness and high stress situations are skill sets in a multitude of careers outside of ET men outside of the OR right?So that is a way to translate that skill set into something that a non DVM is going to understand.
Taking a history, you know how to get a history on an itchy dog who can't speak?I mean, think of all the ways you could reword that into something that someone outside of that Med is gonna understand.
I mean, it's root cause analysis, right?You're trying to get to the root cause of that animal's itching.Well, how do you do that?You, you ask the right questions.You listen, you prioritize.These are all things that you do in every interaction.
Sales, we've already touched on that you, you are a salesperson because the only way your patient is going to get the care it needs is if you can effectively sell your recommendations to the owner.That's customer service, that's sales.
If you manage a practice or if you're a leader in a practice, you're a lead veterinarian.You've been there a long time, you own a practice, whatever.You absolutely have human resource skills if you've ever been responsible for, you know, ordering products or identifying new products.
You have inventory management skills, you have data analysis and purchasing decision making capabilities.These are all words that are outside of that Med, but totally applicable.I, I could go on forever.
I actually wrote a course for veterinarians for pivoting out of practice for that reason.It was, people ask me that all the time.How did you get out of practice?I'm stuck.I don't think there's any.I don't want vets to leave practice.Don't get me wrong, I think practice is, I think there's a lot of problems people have in practice that could be solved and keep them in practice.
A lot of mental health issues.So many, you know, things that are going in the right direction for our profession.But I'd like to speak more on translational skills to people who are really intentionally trying to leave practice 'cause they just want to go do something else.And that's OK.
I think that's what's kind of unfortunate for a lot of our professionals who spend 10 plus years in college and 200,000 plus, you know, dollars in debt.And then you feel like I can't possibly do anything else because I spent all this time and money to become this person.
And what we end up doing is creating these little niche people that are then suffering because maybe they just want to try something else.I mean, the CEO of Pfizer is a veterinarian of human.Pfizer is a veterinarian, right?There's so many examples of people who just tried different things.
I'm just one of them.But I left practice unintentionally.I left practice because I was kind of in a situation like what you were saying.Some listeners are.It's just I gotta get out and I don't know what I'm gonna do.I'm grateful that I ended up going into lab animal medicine and contract research.
I learned so much about how drugs and medical devices get approved for humans and for animals.I just tremendous amount of respect for research.So and I got to work with species I'd never thought I'd work with.So I I really enjoyed that and I appreciate that experience.
But when I made my next move, I was much more intentional about it.I really asked myself like, what do I want?And it wasn't about title or I mean, yeah, I had to have know what my budget needed to be to pay my student loans and feed my children, but it was really more about what do I have my day to look like and what do I want the people around me to be like.
And I asked those kind of questions.And one of the biggest things that became really important for me was I wanted to be around.I wanted to work for someone I could learn from because I had a lot of bad boss experiences by that point.And ultimately, that's how I ended up going into business development and academia was the woman I work for was just fantastic.
And I just knew I could learn from her, but I knew I intentionally had figured out that was an important thing to me.So asking yourself those questions about what it is I don't like, what is it I do like?Sometimes it's hard.It's easier to identify the things you don't like.
Well, then just put those on a big list, right?And and also recognizing what major impacts things like, are you on your feet all day?Are you at a desk all day?Do you have a window to look out to?Do you want to be outside?Do you want to work with people?Do you want to work for yourself?Those seem like silly things to ask, but those are big parts of what lead to a successful day-to-day for somebody.
You hate working with people and you're working in a big team and you can't succeed without working with people every day.You're going to be unhappy.It doesn't matter what you're doing, asking yourself, do you want to work with animals every day?Do you want to have your hands on animals every day?That's important to know because you can still do things outside of clinical medicine where you're doing that, but it's an important aspect to figure out.
So you know that, I guess that's some of the advice I give people when they're looking to potentially leave is in a lot of it is internal homework.It's asking yourself a lot of questions.Yeah, if not this, then then what?I've said it before on the podcast.
I still have an old diary somewhere 'cause I, I still do clinical work, but just clinical work doesn't tick the boxes for me.It's why So I have to do other stuff.And I remember getting to a breaking point and I'd scribbled in large letters across my diary.If not this, then what?
Actually, I added a swear word in there, but I went and that and that started the process of sitting down.I go, OK, well, when then, then what?What is it that I won?What am I missing?What's making me feeling this, feel this dissatisfaction?
And then how do I work towards it without necessary?Because I think a lot of people, they want to know the the final destination.They want to know.Well, I want to do exactly this.The my dream job is this and I, well, I can't find that.So now I'm just stuck.For me, it was very much, I mean yours very much the it's the squiggle again to go, well, these sort of things are like, so let me give this a try and see what I learned from this experience.
And where does that take me?Instead of saying, well, until I know, until I have the perfect next move, I'm not going to make any move.Yeah, and that's the worst thing you can do.Like any momentum is good momentum, right?And the other thing I think people underestimate or they don't really think about is how impactful it is to just be a good person.
So if you're just a really good person and you ask smart questions and you you're willing to learn new things and you treat people with respect and you show up and do the work that you say you're going to do, it will open doors for you in ways that no other degree or you know, master class is going to do for you.
And I think just being curious like for me, like I said, the one, the one first intentional job move I made, it was like I wanted to learn something new.I wanted to learn something I, I didn't know how to do and I wanted to work for someone I thought I could learn from.Those were like my two biggest things.
And I recognized I had a capability of translating business to science and science to business.And so that's what led me into that role in business development.But, you know, someone took a chance on me 'cause I had no business development experience, I'd never worked for a human medical school like this was no one knew what to do with a deep.
I met with over 100 people in the state of Michigan and bought a lot of cups of coffee as I tried to figure out what I wanted to do with my life.And that curiosity and that just following up when someone made an introduction and being willing to, you know, drive for that cup of coffee and all that stuff, it just ended up leading to these opportunities that I just couldn't have fathomed.
But a, a big part of it now is I was just AI was just a nice person and I said what I was going to do and I did a good job.That goes a really long way, sadly.I love that because I think we do take it for granted.
Then because of the situations, we, and it's just going to sound arrogant for the profession, but we find ourselves surrounded by nice people who are intelligent and makes my decisions and are committed to doing what they say they're gonna do.And if you have enough friends who do not work in our profession, you realize that that is not the norm.
It's true.Yep.So all you gotta do is educate other people on what it is a veterinarian brings to the table.And because there's just gonna be a lot of people who just don't know they and that's OK.It's not a slam on veterinary medicine.
It's just, can you explain what a civil engineer does effectively and how they could work in something outside of civil engineering, right.So you're just having to educate them.And so it's on you to say, how do I use words and phrases that are analogous to something they'd understand?
You know, and that takes your ability to look at yourself a little differently.But if you can do that and you can just say, I see how my experience in these, you know, it doesn't even have to be just your profession.Maybe you're involved in volunteering or leading some other community group or something like all those experiences translate into how you could be an effective employee for somebody.
But if you can translate those and then just go be a nice person, then it will go really far.I, I highly recommend the networking thing.I hate networking because I'm an introvert.Many of us are.And, but if you just keep reminding yourself, no one really likes it.
But if you network with somebody either virtually over LinkedIn or you know, some local community networking or something, and just ask somebody for a cup of coffee And then pick their brain.Be able to articulate what it is you do and what you kind of think you're looking for.
And then ask them for an introduction or two to someone else in their network they think would be interesting for you.And that's How I Met those over 100 people.You'll grow that network in a way where what they're seeing is a really authentic, intelligent, curious professional.
No one ever questioned my professionalism.No one questioned my intellect because I had a veterinary degree, you know?So really what I was just trying to show them is who I am and then be vulnerable and saying, I'm not sure what I want to do next.But I know I like business and I know I like science and I know I can actually kind of think both ways.
So what is that right?It's really now I, I say all this like it's super easy to do, but this was, you know, 20 years in the making for me.So, you know, it's hindsight's 2020 for me.But I do talk to a lot of people who are interested in exploring, you know, life outside of practice.
And that's one of the fundamental skills.I just just start there, just start being curious and talking to people and stay nice.Stay.Nice good advice.I'm a fairly random question, I'm just curious.So how long ago did you leave practice?How many years ago was that?
I left private practice in 2006 and then I went into lab animal medicine.So lots has changed.So you had a job that didn't offer you support and there were practical reasons why it didn't work for you.And, and it sounds like you didn't really have many other options within clinical practice because of your non compete and all of that.
But the profession has, has come a long way since 2006 in terms of making it a more survivable profession.Do do you think you could go back?Do you think clinical practice as it is today?I don't know how much contact you still have with clinical practice.I suppose you went into practices with so Medica speaking to vets.
Is it a, a more appealing proposition now?Do you think I I I could have done this for sure?Probably.But now that I've lived like I, there are parts of practice I I truly miss.I mean, the animals, right?I and I loved medicine.
I loved the mystery of medicine and putting the puzzle together.I didn't love surgery, but I did love like cosmetic surgery.I really like to challenge myself to close wounds and make them look as pretty as possible.But I think for me, now that I've experienced life outside of practice, it, it, I mean, one of the most like basic things to me is I like not relying on my profession or the my work success to be reliant on a schedule.
So seeing patients and knowing I have to be seeing patients between these hours in order to do my job, that would be hard for me to go back to.Because after being out of it and knowing like, yeah, I'll sell meetings, I might be back-to-back to back, but I still have that opportunity to say I'm going to take this meeting remotely because my daughter has a dentist appointment, right?
I think as a that that would be hard for me to give up.It's autonomy.I, I feel that and I feel that and autonomy and how and when I live my life is, is, is one of my bribes with clinical practice.I like, you know, I'm five hours into consulting.
I know it's my consulting blog but I would kind of like to stop but I can't because there are us that says this is your consulting.Yeah, and that I think, you know, I, I've learned that that that autonomy is a good word for it, that that autonomy piece is super important for me.
But I think if I did think about going back to practice a little bit in the last couple years, just like, OK, what 'cause I did it again, you know, I left one job and what do I do now?I really love the the growth of palliative and in home senior care and euthanasia.
My greatest experiences my I should say, my most memorable and and meaningful experiences in practice for euthanasias that I felt so blessed to be in those moments for people, you know, the non economic ones, you know, the IT I just was I I think I was good at it.
And so the the growth of those kind of specific specialty practices, I did think, well, if I went back to practice, that would be something I'd be interested in doing.But yeah, that autonomy pieces is a tough one to get to, to break away from once you have it.All right, big pivot.
So to let's go to the most recent couple of chapters of your career.So Zoomerica finding and making tech and selling it.Yeah, Business running and starting and running a business, lessons from that.Have you got any big takeaways from that period?
Yes, that, I mean, Zometica was a great example of you don't know what you're getting into.And so it you know, it's good that you can't see down the road.I had no idea how much work that was gonna be, but I had a lot of fun.
I mean, that company, the, the cool thing about that company and Co founding that company was that I was kind of my, my reason for being other than just I started, I was COO and we started it.So I had to worry about like the daily operations of everything and just starting a company.
But it was go find products that, you know, you would have used in practice.And that was my job.So that's where I got to see hundreds of products and that's where I got to get really sensitive to how much bad stuff was out there.
And it really let me kind of achieve my goal, which was I just wanted to bring something to market that I knew would impact the veterinary profession positively for generations to come.That was really cool.That's what I did.I went and found products that were being made for human medicine but had potential in veterinary medicine and saying if you give us the rights to the veterinary license, then we will get a product on market for you and validate your product and start revenue generating revenue for you before you get to the human market, right.
And so that's what I was able to do.And I'm, I'm just curious and did you say earlier that's easier to do in vet compared to human Med?So for a company like that, the the plus for them would be, oh wow, there's an easy way for us to bring something to market, sell it and test it, check that it works basically.
Yeah.I mean, there's kind of like 3 divisions in medical, in biotech, if you will.There's pharmaceuticals, medical devices and diagnostics.And every one of them has different regulatory considerations.
In human medicine, you know, you deal with the FDA, with veterinary medicine, you have the FDA, you have the USDA and you have the EPA.And what product you're making is very dependent on which regulatory body you're working with etcetera.
So the hurdles for getting a like a pharmaceutical into the bovine species, let's say that's going to be a really high hurdle, really high.The biggest reason for that is we consume.Product.Cow products.So it's a human consideration, right?
And then diagnostics have a different level of consideration, whether they're being run at a central laboratory or whether they're in the point of care at a clinic.And then devices are interesting cause medical devices, if it's considered a medical device, have no pre market regulatory burden necessarily.
So it the, the, the bar is lower than human medicine in general.But it's not that things are totally wild, Wild West in veterinary medicine.But if you bring a drug or a device or a diagnostic to the human sector, it's just gonna cost exorbitantly more.
And so for a company to say, well, we're going to take this product to human medicine, but we have this opportunity to take it into veterinary medicine earlier and generate revenue while we're going into human medicine.That's a really nice proposition, right?So that was kind of what I tried to do is find technologies that I knew how to place in vet Med had fit the economics of veterinary medicine and kind of make that pitch, if you will to those companies to say let us do this so.
All right.And then how did we get from Zometica to Vetland, which is your current role?Yeah, so in my time since I left Zometica, I've been just consulting and advising startup companies.In in the vet space or everything?Everything.
Yeah.I've just had really cool opportunities to work with a lot of companies and advise founders.I did a lot of what I would call founder therapy.It was just essentially helping them get through the challenges of being a startup founder.But I also kind of because of that experience of working in the human biotech sector and then looking for products and bringing them into veterinary medicine.
I kind of established a reputation in my network for someone who can see products that have potential in vet Med.And so I was approached by someone in my network that said that who was advising a human company and they had done a significant amount of pre clinical work in sheep and it was working really well.
And that made them think maybe this has a place in veterinary medicine.So they approached me and I'd say 9 out of 10 times when I have companies come and tell me they have a product for them and I'm like, no, you don't, That's just my opinion.But this one really caught my eye.And I was like, yeah, this, this is really solving a problem that humans and human doctors and veterinary doctors have.
The economics are something that veterinarians can afford and they can provide an increased standard of care to their patients that they can afford and their customers can afford.And I really think it's on the right side of history for really creating a super valuable product that's going to change human and veterinary care.
So tell me if I understand the product correctly.So it's an antibiotic delivery device for surgery, right where if you have a, so it's a little sachet, little pocket like a tea bag sort of a thing that you that you put at the side where you want your antibiotic.
And then it's a slow release of a of an antibiotic at a specific site.Correct.It's a very good way to put it.It's being developed in the human sector specifically for orthopaedic infections and the treatment and breakdown of biofilms.So the inventor of this is out of the University of Utah Human Hospital for in the Department of Orthopaedics, and he's spent his entire career working on preventing and treating biofilm on orthopaedic implants.
So he invented this for that specific purpose in veterinary medicine.I think it has a tremendous potential for local drug delivery.So wherever you need local drug delivered, then what this allows you to be able to do is you place the pouch in the incision in the wound, you exteriorize the catheter that's associated with the pouch, and then there's a a needleless port on the end.
So it allows you to replenish antibiotic or whatever therapeutic you're using on a daily basis for up to 30 days.And then when you want to remove it, you simply empty the pouch and pull it just like a drain.So the beauty of it is so simple, but I'm also working with a whole team of engineers to recognize it's not simple, but but it's so beautifully engineered that and the concept is so simple that it's really awesome that it's just giving us that opportunity to say, I'm going to get antibiotics directly to where they're needed without having to do systemic doses where it's particularly in trauma and surgery.
We know that the amount of systemic antibiotic that's getting to exactly where you need it to go is not enough particularly to prevent biofilm development.So one, it's more efficacious and two, it's just safer and more economical.So if you have an antibiotic, particularly if you have cultures that come back and it's multi drug resistant and you have to use a drug that's either potential has, you know, renal toxicity concerns or liver toxicity and it's expensive.
Now you can dose smaller amounts at the the site of incision and it reduces the the economics associated with that.So it's a dose dependent thing because my, I looked at it first and went, oh, that's really clever.And then I thought, but hang on, it's still going to get absorbed systemically.
So it's not like, you know, it's systemically going to be exposed to because IA lot of the, because I do the clinical podcast as well.And so many of the conversations from the different topics are coming back towards responsible antibiotic usage as well, reducing how much antibiotic you use and how long for and figuring out that we completely overdo it.
And then I thought, all right, but but we still, because we give some kind of injections and that does get absorbed systemically and this device is going to sit sort of some cut or in a wound or something.So there will be systemic absorption.But is the point you can actually give a much smaller amount.So the amount that goes systemic is much reduced.
Yes, the amount is.So we are currently doing PK studies to show local tissue concentration as it relates to systemic concentrations so that we can kind of dial in those dosing recommendations so that you can reliably do a smaller dose in the pouch.
But regardless, even if you did a full day's dose of what you would have given systemically and you give that in the pouch, the data we have shows how much less is absorbed systemically versus being locally absorbed and and having its local impacts be therefore lean it to be more efficacious.
There's one thing I'm pretty tenacious about is being evidence based.Cause as we've said multiple times in this podcast, I don't want to be bringing things to the market that don't have a lot of evidence to support them.So we're doing, we just started our first clinical trial on dogs.
We're working on developing one for horses and then we're doing PK studies for for canine and equine markets to support those dosing recommendations.OK, So the mic thing, I recently did another discussion on ears otitis and, and we were talking about the, the dermatologist was talking about how taking culture results for years doesn't really make that much sense because they'll culture it and and check the antibiotics on it based on what systemic levels antibiotic levels will get into the ear.
And she said that's not really valid because when you Chuck up, when you put an ear drop in there, that concentration is so much higher that even the thing that that comes up as resistant on your sheet that you get back from your culture result may still be killed at those high concentrations.So this kind of fits with that.
It's the same sort of principle as well, OK.The in principle, it's just, you know, kind of back to our conversation about the amount of money it takes to do real clinical research, controlled studies and multi site studies and all of that.It's incredibly expensive and we're going to do those studies because it's the right thing to do.
But it's why you don't see a lot of there's a lot of empirical use in vet Med.You know, it's we have to balance between the well, yeah, if I put the.That makes sense.If I put the drug in the ear, then the dose is going to be higher than the systemic dose.
But I don't have any data to prove that.So do I err on the side of let's just make sure we really wallop it and kill it?Or do I reduce my antibiotic usage because I probably don't need that much Then?That's the thing that's so frustrating about antibiotic stewardship for veterinary medicine is we're being tasked with the stewardship, but we're not being provided with solutions for how to do that more, how to take care of our patients more effectively.
You know, and so that's one reason that I was excited about this product was just, I felt like it was a solution.You're still using antibiotics.Yes, but it was a solution to make the antibiotics you're using more effective 'cause they're getting to where they need to be and and they're gonna work because they're where they need to be.
I'm trying to think so I get the orthopaedic thing and especially the the biofilm.I think I, I understand that's a big issue, but I'm not an orthopaedic surgeon.So I go well, boring.I don't get to use it other applications.The only thing I can think of is something like dog bites where you have really dirty traumatic wounds.
But other other things that that where I'm that I'm not being imaginative enough, imaginative enough to think.Yeah.I mean, so the initial market research we did was with orthopedic surgeons.So TPLO infections, fracture repair, anything where there is hardware in there and it's detrimental to the patient if the hardware becomes infected.
That was kind of the original use case 'cause that's the use case in humans.But in talking to veterinarians, you know, we've had a lot of people have interest in other things.So bite wounds being one, people want to know if it can be used for local pain relief, Can it be used for local chemotherapy delivery?
Can it be used in the peritoneum?You know, and again, this is the beauty of veterinary medicine as people ask all these questions and think, oh, this is a really cool device.It would let me get things, get the right treatment where I want it to go.
And my answer back is, I don't know, but if you want to develop a study and try it and I'll get your product.So that's kind of the stage we're in right now in this company is, you know, we're launching this summer.I'm getting pouches out to surgeons that for what we're calling our beta trials.
So it's getting pouches in the hands of surgeons to try it and look for new use cases.And then we also have a really cool resident award that will give $5000 and free pouches to a resident who wants to try using the device for a new use case.
And then of course we have clinical trials that we're going to continue to develop and and conduct.But, you know, the position we're in right now is how can we just let veterinarians think about other use cases for what a local sustained daily drug delivery option would give them?
Yeah, I'm thinking of body cavities.Could you put it in an abdomen or in a pleural space or something?Yeah, we don't know.But from the engineering side of things, we can't see why not.So from a clinical perspective, you know, I'm, if someone wanted to try it, then they can absolutely try that.
I'm, I balance between respecting the Macgyverism and saying I'm not selling anything unless I have data on it.So the data I'm collecting for you right now as a potential customer is going to be around antibiotic delivery in infected wounds or surgical sites.
That's the data we have.We've also had data using lidocaine for local.It was actually infused with lidocaine to remove it.And so we know that's the data we have.We've had multiple physician or clinicians who are interested in local chemotherapy delivery and I think there is an absolute potential for that use case.
We have equine practitioners who have a lot of interests in wounds tie back surgeries.You know, it it, these are all potential options.I just don't necessarily have data for them, but that's why I want to get pouches out there and get clinicians using them because that generates data.
And kind of back to what I was saying before is that there's, there's an absolute need for the, the controlled clinical studies, absolute need for them.We're doing those things, but there's also a need for evidence based field research because I want to know that I'm giving you the data that makes you think it makes you, you know, respect that.
Yep, this.We've done this in 200 sheep.It's working.It's safe, right?But I also want you to have the data from, you know, Doctor Jones or Doctor Smith that you know, who said, yeah, I tried it and it works, right?I'm trying to balance those two things because I'm just like you, like I OK, yeah, I'm going to get it.
I'm going to see a paper and I'm going to be like, the first thing I do when I read a paper is or a study, I go to see who funded it.What's the bias?I always is their bias.And I know as a, you know, I'm on the industry side, like I'm going to pay someone to do some work for me.
So but that's important.That's how you get in journals, right?But I also want to have research where I'm like, I didn't pay this person anything.They just tried the pouch.They loved it.They gave me a testimonial and go talk to them about it.You know, I really want to be veterinarians creating products for veterinarians being sold by veterinarians who just believe it works and they're telling everybody else they know about it.
Yeah, we can people.I'll, I'll put stuff in the in the show list and stuff.But we can people get in touch with you if they, if they, if you're listening to this and you go, ah, I have an idea.Yeah, Yeah.So if you just put our website in there, we have links in the website for one.We're giving away free pouches.
So as soon as we launch, anyone who wants a free pouch gets one.We also have links in there to the resident award for anyone who's in academia or has residents that might be interested.And then you can put my e-mail address in there too.If they're interested in being what I'm calling a beta user or they have other some clinical trial consideration that they they want to talk about, they can e-mail me directly.
That's really.Exciting.I'm looking at the clock.We should probably start ramping up.Have I missed anything major?Anything else you want to talk about or or feel very strongly about?Yeah, I think I've, I think I've hit all my my soap boxes.As you get older I find the the boxes become more.
I have AI have a shelf of soap boxes.You know, yeah, I should just put boxes up here that just.Say soap, I like that.All right, so our standard questions, The first one is if you're a podcast listener, do you have any favourites that I should add to my playlist?
I am a podcast listener.I've really been getting into not all episodes but Diary of Aceo.Stephen Bartlett.Yeah, and he has.There's two characteristics of him that I really like.One is he's genuinely curious.
And two, he's super vulnerable.And I didn't even start listening to it 'cause it was.I don't even like the title of the podcast.Like you don't have to be a C.EOI don't want.To be a CEO, to listen to it, but I, I just really appreciate those characteristics in him.And then when I really just want to like, laugh, I listen to Smartlist.
Smartlist.I don't know that one.It's Jason Bateman, Sean Hayes and Will Arnett.OK.And they're like 3 best friends and they, it's just like listening to three really horrible interviewers talk over guests and, you know, make fun of each other and very little intellectual capacity necessary to listen to.
But I, I just, I've really grown to just enjoy their voices.It makes me happy.All right.The pass along question, I explained that one to you.So I get a question from a previous guest for my next guest without knowing who they're going to be.That's actually from Steven Bartlett.
I stole that question from him.So thank you for Steven.So my question or your question from my previous guest is imagine your worst day that you had in Victory Science.And what is it that that got you back, that got you through that day, that got you back from that day?
Yeah, the worst day I had in vet Med was the day I went back to practice after maternity leave for my first child, my first child.And I left her in a daycare and she was eight weeks old.
And it was a very emotionally challenging day.And we already know I don't love surgery and I had a foreign body removal and it was just, it was just a really hard day.
I was being challenged with something I already didn't really want to do.And it was my first day back and then my mind was elsewhere, etcetera.And the dog ended up de hissing and dying within a week.His name was Elvis.And how did I get over it?
I don't know if I ever did.But what got me back and got me, you know, back on the horse and made me come back into practice was honestly necessity.I had a job to do.I had a child to raise.I needed food on the table and that's not really a healthy reason to get back into it, but it, it goes back to a lot of our conversation around perfectionism and and everything else.
And that was, I'm sure that had an impact on me when I just when I had to leave practice.So, but yeah, that was, that was my roughest day.I think of that, I, I think of the dog a lot.I think of the owners a lot.My the gentleman who owned the practice, you know, protected me, didn't no one was they were very angry at me.
But he he defended me.You know, he's like it could happen to anyone.I don't know if that was true at the time.I.Didn't do it.I've been there.I think we all have the all have those stories.Oh, that's such a, such a vulnerable period for that to happen as well.
That first time you have to take your first kid back.And it's such a, you know, it's such a common thing.I just, that's not just for our profession, obviously for everybody.But, you know, I have a kid and it's a very special time.And then you go, all right, Now we're gonna kick you out so I can go back to work.
Yeah.Yeah.And I think that's probably why it was a doubly hard day.But it, you know, as with everything, you look back and, you know, now my, that daughter is going to be 19 in a few months, you know, and I'm helping her through those same difficult days and just saying you, you got to get through it.
You're going to learn from it.You're going to, you know, not going to hurt so much in the future.And I think that is probably one of the very few days in my life where I don't think I'll ever totally get over it.And that is the reality.I, I always, when I have these conversations, I'm, I'm looking for the solution of how could you have done it better?
What, what can we learn from it?But the reality is sometimes wet, but life just sucks and you just have to do, just have to do it.Previous guest said going into vet you have to understand that it's a blood sport and that is it.
Sometimes it's a blood sport.It's some days aren't just gonna suck and you have to just.Yeah, and I have friends who are human physicians who have had similar experiences.They've lost people that they didn't expect to lose.So that's part of medicine.
But again, we're trained that, like here, you did this right, Check.You did this right, Check.You did this right, check.Get your A.Get your A, get your A.And then you have a failure like that that results in such tremendous loss.And to find that inner strength to say it's it's OK.
Like these things are gonna happen and you have to come back from them.Yeah, That was that was not a day to be able to talk to myself that way.That day was particularly challenging.So.So, yeah.But I guess it's kind of a but.
It's relevant.It's it's super, super relevant.I think that I'll add to that maybe something to consider in a situation, although it's very hard to be rational during situations like that.But when that happened in that week on the day that Elvis died, it would have felt like the end of the world's you like.
It would have been the biggest, most important catastrophic thing in that moment.And now it's, you know, a a long time later and life carried on and nobody, nobody killed you and nobody took your vet degree from you and you carried on and built an amazing life in Korea.
And it doesn't, you know, it feels like the worst possible thing and it is, it sucks at the time, but it does.It does.You're not over it, but you carry on.Yeah, yeah.And I like to think that I'm, you know, go back what I said in the beginning, that mistakes are really just learning opportunities.
I don't know if I made a mistake on that animal.I have no idea.But I, because I think of him often and I'm still in the world of trying to make the world better for animals.I'm just doing it in a different way, you know, because I didn't just lose him and forgot and moved on and didn't think about it.
I he's, he's still there making an impact, you know, helping me make the next right decision.You sometimes you got to embrace the pain because it's who it's what makes you who you are.And that, I think, is a very common theme in veterinarians, You know, back to what we talked about.
Right.Oh, oh, no, wait, I almost forgot your question for my next guest.OK.My question is going to be the opposite of that.I want to know what was that day in your professional career, assuming this is a veterinarian, what was that day that you are most proud of that you're just like, that was, that was a good day.
They all need to be that way.Oh, great.I just can't wait to hear the answer to that one.All right, the very last question.You have an opportunity to speak to the new grads of 2024 at the end of this year.You're ready to talk or something, or you're on a podcast and you have a couple of minutes to give them one little bit of advice for life of a career or whatever you prefer.
Be easy on yourself.Just be easy on yourself.It's so important to everyone you love and all the patients you want to care for that you are good to yourself.You will be a better veterinarian and a better everything in your life if you learn to just love yourself and talk nicely to yourself.
Believe in yourself, accept mistakes when you make them, learn from them, and move on.Because it's inevitable.That's just life.But if you let those things defeat you, if you are your own worst critic and your own worst enemy, you will ultimately not be the veterinarian that you got into this profession to be.
Stephanie, that was amazing.Thank you so much for the time and the vulnerability and leading by example.I really appreciate your time.No, I thank you for having me.This was very enjoyable.Before you disappear, I wanted to tell you about our new weekly newsletter.
I speak to so many interesting people and learn so many new things while making the podcast, so I thought I'd go ahead a little summary each week of the stuff that stood out for me.We call it the Vet Vault 321 and it consists of firstly 3 clinical pearls.These are three things that I've taken away from the clinical podcast episodes, my light bulb moments, the penny dropping, any new facts and the stuff that we need to know to make all the other pieces fit.
Then two other things.This could be quotes, links, movies, books, a podcast, highlight anything that I've come across outside of clinical vetting that I think you might find interesting.And then one thing to think about, I'll share something that I'm pondering, usually based on something that I've read or heard, but sometimes it'll be just my own musings or rants.
The goal of this format is that you can spend just two to three minutes on the clinical stuff and move right along if that's all that you're after.But if you're looking for content that is more nourishing than cat videos or doom scrolling, then our two other things should send you in the right direction.And then something extra for when you feel like a slightly longer read.
If you'd like to get these in your inbox each week, then subscribe by following the newsletter link in the show description wherever you're listening to this.It's free.I think it's useful, it's fun, and it's easy to unsubscribe if it's not for you.OK, we'll see you next time.

Dr Stephanie Morley