May 20, 2024

#121: Weaving a Safety Net: Using Herd Immunity for Veterinary Suicide Prevention. With Dr Kat Williams and Dr Alena Gadoury

#121: Weaving a Safety Net: Using Herd Immunity for Veterinary Suicide Prevention. With Dr Kat Williams and Dr Alena Gadoury

This pivotal episode tackles the urgent issue of suicide prevention within the veterinary profession—a field grappling with alarmingly high rates of mental health challenges. We break down the profound psychological toll veterinarians face, from the emotional weight of euthanasia to challenging client interactions and workplace pressures. Inspired by groundbreaking programs like Mates in Construction, the discussion introduces Vet Herd, a community-driven initiative designed to build support networks that prioritize mental health and resilience.
Through deeply personal stories, our guests explore how organizational psychology and career pivots can transform well-being in the profession. They also share practical tools like LivingWorks' ASSIST program, equipping listeners with actionable strategies to support themselves and others. This episode isn’t just a deep dive into a pressing issue—it’s a call to action for the veterinary community to champion collective care and prioritize mental health.

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Season 1

It’s the topic in veterinary science that we wish we didn’t have to talk about. Every time we hear about another veterinary suicide, we feel sad, angry, and frustratingly powerless. But in this conversation with Dr. Kat Williams and Dr. Alena Gadoury, you’ll be inspired to take back the power to act against this curse of our profession.

Drs. Kat and Alena are the founders of VetHerd, an industry-based suicide prevention program for the veterinary profession. VetHerd utilizes the collective power of our community to create a robust safety net to combat the alarming rates of veterinary suicide through collaboration, awareness, and education.

You’ll learn about 'Mates in Construction,' the inspiration for the program, the parallels between ‘herd immunity’ and mental health, why it’s essential for all of us to learn how to talk openly and bravely about suicide, and how to get better at it.

Register for VetHerd’s upcoming two-day ASIST suicide prevention workshop, sponsored by Flynn’s Walk, here, or contact Kat and Alena at kat@vetherd.com.au or alena@vetherd.com.au to find out how you can get involved.

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Episode Topics and Timestamps

00:00 Introducing VetHerd: A Vision for Community and Protection

06:19 Drawing Inspiration from Mates in Construction

08:32 Addressing the Mental Health Crisis in the Veterinary Industry

11:51 Exploring the Complex Causes of High Suicide Rates Among Veterinarians

20:44 The ASIST Model: A Framework for Suicide Prevention

28:41 Exploring the Model for Safety Planning

29:22 Community Involvement and Support

29:40 Addressing Responsibility and Training Needs

30:32 Practical Training and Its Importance

32:08 Overcoming the Fear of Discussing Suicide

33:46 The Power of Asking, and Community Support

34:48 Training Opportunities and Industry Support

42:37 Personal Insights and Podcast Recommendations

45:14 Funding Challenges and Industry Contributions

50:36 Final Thoughts and Encouragement

 

"What are the Key Challenges in Veterinary Suicide Prevention?"
The episode discuss a range of challenges in veterinary suicide prevention:
  • Outdated Data: Existing data on veterinary suicide rates is significantly outdated, making it difficult to accurately assess the current situation and develop effective interventions.
  • Multifactorial Nature of Suicide: Suicide is a complex issue with numerous contributing factors, making it challenging to pinpoint specific causes and solutions. Veterinary-specific stressors, such as euthanasia, client abuse, and high workload, are compounded by individual factors like anxiety, depression, and access to lethal means.
  • Low Help-Seeking Behaviours Among Veterinarians: Veterinarians are known to be reluctant to seek help, often due to stigma, shame, guilt, and the caregiver complex, which makes early intervention and prevention efforts difficult.
  • Lack of Adequate Funding: The development and implementation of comprehensive suicide prevention programs, such as training and research, are hindered by insufficient funding. This makes it difficult to build capacity within the industry and create a sustainable support network.
  • Need for Industry-Wide Support: Creating a successful and impactful suicide prevention program requires collaborative efforts from all stakeholders in the veterinary industry, including employers, professional organisations, mental health professionals, and individual veterinarians.
The episode highlights the importance of moving beyond individual help-seeking and proactively offering support to colleagues. They emphasize the need for greater awareness, education, research, and community involvement to address this critical issue.
"What Resources and Support Systems are most Effective?"
The episode primarily focus on a specific training program, Living Works ASIST (Applied Suicide Intervention Skills Training), and the concept of building "vet herd" immunity as the most effective resources for suicide prevention in the veterinary profession. Here's why:
  • Effectiveness of ASIST: While traditional suicide prevention relies heavily on individuals seeking help, ASIST equips individuals within the profession to become proactive caregivers. They learn to recognise warning signs, engage in difficult conversations, and support colleagues experiencing suicidal thoughts.
    • The training emphasises a person-centered and strengths-based approach, empowering individuals to create their own safety plans rather than prescribing solutions.
    • ASIST utilises role-playing and practical exercises, allowing participants to develop and practice essential conversational skills in a safe environment.
  • "Vet Herd" Immunity: This concept, inspired by the Mates in Construction program, advocates for building a network of trained caregivers within the veterinary community. The sources argue that a collective approach is vital because:
    • Veterinarians are often low help-seekers, making proactive support crucial.
    • Having readily accessible support within the workplace fosters a culture of openness and reduces stigma.
    • The program emphasizes tailoring solutions to the specific needs and challenges of the veterinary industry, ensuring relevance and effectiveness.
Beyond ASIST and "vet herd" immunity, the sources also touch upon the importance of:
  • Research: Updated data on suicide prevalence and contributing factors is crucial for developing targeted interventions and evaluating program effectiveness.
  • Funding: Securing adequate funding is vital for delivering training, conducting research, and building sustainable support systems within the veterinary community.
  • Employer Support: Employers play a critical role in fostering a supportive workplace culture, providing access to training, and allowing staff to attend workshops on paid time.
The episode suggests that a multi-pronged approach that combines practical training, community support, research, and funding is essential to effectively address the issue of suicide within the veterinary profession.
I should start this episode with a content warning.As you can tell from the title, we are talking about suicide.So if for any reason this is a particularly raw topic for you that might trigger a strong emotional response, then maybe this is one that you should skip.
But I also want to say that if you can, maybe we should sit with our discomfort and become a bit triggered so that we jolted into action, actual action.Not just posting, not one move it on our social media profiles, but actually doing something.
I do also realize that emotions aside, that suicide is not something we really like to talk about or listen to.I know I don't because, well it's not exactly an uplifting topic, but this is really our problem as a community to face up to and find solutions for and I believe that there are the seeds of solutions in this what is ultimately quite an optimistic conversation with Kat and Alina.
So who are Kat and Alina?Dr. Kat Williams and Doctor Alina Goduri are the Co founders and directors of Vet Heard, an industry based suicide prevention program for the vet profession.You'll find out all about it in this discussion.Doctor Kat has worked as a small animal General practitioner and in administration within specialty and emergency teams.
Her own lived experience of mental health conditions and suicide has given her a passion for veterinary well-being.Kat has a Bachelor degree in Psychological Science and has presented to the profession on the Practical Application of Psychology for veterinary staff.Doctor Lena Goduri has a very diverse career ranging from human to animal medicine, business training and research.
She obtained a Bachelor of Nursing in 2006, after which she worked as a Registered Nurse in Adult Mental Health and Pediatrics.Then in 2013, she got herself a vet degree and has since worked in small, mixed and emergency settings like Cat.Her own experiences in the profession has LED her to focus on suicide prevention and intervention.
Elena is also about to start a PhD where she's undertaking research into suicide in Australian veterinarians.Together, Cat and Elena are striving to build and develop the skills of suicide prevention in the individuals in our profession.That's you and in the veterinary community collectively.
And before we jump in, I want to underline a concept that stuck with me from what we discussed in this episode.We'll hear Kat and Elena talk about a safety net, which I actually really like is a metaphor.When you think of a safety net, you immediately think of acrobats or maybe firemen, right?
So people doing difficult, high skill tasks in a situation where a slip can be fatal, and regardless of how well prepared these people are and how carefully they do their thing, stuff happens, life happens, and sometimes you do slip.
Less than a month after recording this, I got the news that a really good friend from vet school days had committed suicide.Now I wish I could say that that's a first for me.It's not.But this one really hurt.She was to our community of friends, a classmate and a housemate and a best friend and a joy of a human being.
The shock waves of how could this have happened spread far and wide across the veteran community.Our friend, when we knew her was resilience and happiness, encapsulated.She'd be the one you'd call when you were having a bad day.And that's why I want to underline that concept of a safety net and why I think that this work that Kat and Elena are doing is so important.
Because the sad reality is that we can work on the skills of the individual, the Acrobat or the fireman or the vet, but we can't predict what life will throw at us.And we can't always predict who's going to be at risk next.But what we can do is to equip ourselves, all of us, to be that safety net.
I've since learnt that our friend had support.She had people who knew, who cared, who tried, who loved, who fought with her.We're not going to save everyone, but you might save someone.And that someone could be someone close to you.
It could even be you.OK, let's get into it with Kat and Elena.So tell us about the baby vet head.
What's it?What's its goal when it grows up?Yeah, well, we've been talking.About and why vet herd?Sorry, why the vet herd?Is it HERD like cows?So for for listeners, it's one word vet herd, and it's a capital VET and then capital HERD, so herd like a herd of animals.
I would happily give that to you.I know.Yeah, well we're we're going back and forth between, you know what are we going to call ourselves and everything, and then both of us actually independently wrote down Vet herd.No ways.Yeah.And so it was this beautiful thing because it was like, OK, why did you write it down?
And it was in line with each other.It was all about picturing that the elephants that herd around to protect, you know, their young or the cows that herd around and then it grows into this you know herd immunity and protecting each other and how we can create this community of because it's not about Kat and Elena rolling out vet herd.
It's about let's champion and and get all the different sectors to protect itself.Right.So that's the network that you talked about right at the beginning of of herd immunity?Yeah, so the vision for Vet Herd is absolutely.
As Elena was saying, it's about community.So it's the power of the collective to make a difference.And we can't do it on our own.We have no intention of doing it on our own.It's about the the community rallying together for each other.And also we don't want this to be our baby want, we want this to be the industry.
We've been following a program, the model of a program called Mates and construction, because what MATES and construction is that they have quite high rights of suicide as well.They lose construction worker to suicide every second day.
Is this Australia specific or global or Australia specific?So every second day a construction worker is dying by suicide, It's 190 on average per year.And so as an industry they recognise this is not OK, we need to do something.So what they then did was employers and unions working together.
They invested in a study and it's about working out where we are and what are the recommendations like what do we do?And then born out of that study they invested $400,000 to create a program And so that was mates in construction.And I feel like I'm not going to do IT service explaining what MATES in Construction is.
But from my understanding of what it is, it's a program that is about capacity building for the community, the construction industry.It's about empowering workers to be able to support each other, to have the confidence and skills to, to keep each other safe from suicide.
There's education, awareness, and there's a strong Research Foundation as well.They're very much about basing things on research and evaluating programs.So I would encourage listeners to look out for the Mates and construction logo.It's a circle.Within the circle, there's silhouettes of four workers.
They're hard hats, and that's their symbol.That's makes sense.Construction, that's their industry's suicide prevention program.It's for the industry, by the industry.And so Elena and I want to create an equivalent for our industry.Same, but different.
We have been fortunate enough to be mentored by Jorgen Goldstrapp and John Brady, who were one of the first two people to help birth a mates in construction.And so we see ourselves as midwives as well.It's not our baby, it's the industry's baby, but we're helping to deliver it.
We're facilitating this because we really need the industry to own this movement.We need everyone.We need staff, we need employers, we need other industry peak bodies to to come on this movement with us.I was unaware of those statistics for the construction position.I think very much like when people hear about vets, they're like what I thought.
You guys are so happy but you mentioned there that they have a fair amount of data around it.I do we have data in vet because it's we talk about it a lot in social networks and platforms and at conferences and stuff and it's become almost click baity in the media as well.
Ah, vets and suicide numbers and burnout and stuff.But I I from do one.Is it?Is it really?I I know it's bad because I've personal and I I know everybody has a direct experience but what are the what is this?Because there's the the coverly thrown around #4 times the the average of the general population.
And how bad is it?Yeah, I know.I'm so glad you said that four times, 'cause that's the crux of the the problem in the industry right now is the data is so old.So when you look at it, Jones, Ferner, Ayala, I think it was published in 2008.
They did a fabulous study looking at Australian vets that died by suicide, but the the years that they were looking at was between 1990 and 2002, OK.And so that that paper was published in 2008 and those vets were within Victoria and WA.
So that's where that 3.8 and four times actually comes from.Was data from almost, well, two decades ago.And that was three 3.84 times the the the average.Yeah, the general population.In any other profession, yeah.Milner Ayl in 2015 did a more updated study.
I'm looking at Australian vets that have died by suicide, but looking at the standard mortality rate, they did find that the general or that the vets had a higher rate than the general population, but that was looking at data between 2001 to 2012 I believe, right?
So again, nothing has been published since with on prevalence rates and so if you look like we're talking about a decade or two decades ago, a heck of a lot has happened in the vet world within that time frame.Yes, we we are desperate for.So we don't know.
Is it better?No.No.No, it's it's speculated to be worse.Really.Yeah.But we don't know.We need numbers.And so that the one thing that Kat and I are really trying to rally for as well is to be a part of the research and if we can get the current situation that's at least updated right, to say, OK, where are we at and then what are we going to do going forward?
And that's Australian data.Is there data for other countries?Yeah.So they're like without listing off just the prevalence rates, but De Silva, just De Silva AL 2023 just did a recent literature review and they looked at, you know, the data that does exist.
And so they, they have said, yes, we are above the general population globally.Yes.Yeah.And and Platt in 2010 did verify that as well with their systemic review.The data is there to say, OK, with what we do know, we are above the general population.
So there's a problem.Where?Whereabouts are we?Yes, there's a problem.Regardless, there's a.Problem.That's the.The next question then is again, I've heard 100 theories and we all have opinions on why the problem exists.Why more for vets?Is there any authority authoritative information on why it is more of a problem for vets?
Do you know?That's a great question and it's really hard to answer because it's so complex.And so when you actually look at the data, people have tried to look at, you know, what are the factors contributing to our career?And so you look at the the nature of the career itself, like you said earlier, we deal with trauma.
We deal with euthanizing animals.There's a care killing complex or paradox that happens with that.There is, you know, dealing with people with grief and loss, right.And if we're not equipped to do that within our profession in the sense of we don't learn how to do that, that's a whole that's psychology, right?
That is a whole different profession in itself.There is a providing care and not wanting to tell people that you're struggling because you are actually a caregiver.And so even within that, like we're going down a rabbit hole now where it's now looking at the shame and guilt or not even identifying that you might be not doing well within your profession.
And so it becomes really complex and there's no easy way to answer it.And I think that's what's really hard with the research is there's no real way to look at a list of factors that we need to address to make it all better.But what we can see is we can see trends.
We can.We do know that people with anxiety, depression, have a higher risk of suicide or thoughts of suicide, right?We do know that euthanasia can alter your view of death.We do know that we have means of euthanasia.
And so looking at almost what we were talking about earlier, those occupational hazards or stressors, euthanasia have been one of them.So Helene has actually been exploring that over in Norway.And what she actually did find was there was a positive correlation between euthanizing 5 or more animals per week and an individual link to serious suicidal thoughts.
Yeah, many factors play into that though.Is it those people that are working more frequently are seeing more euthanasia?Is it actually the situation of euthanasia itself, so having to deliver it but then also deal with the the parent or sorry owner that is grieving, Is it?
Are you feeling overworked and you're not in a good headspace and now you're actually having to deliver this and and with the care killing paradox, now you've got your own feelings.Do we not know?Have we not learned enough about when is it the dog or cat or animal's time kind of thing?
I haven't read the the phrase care killing.It's it's it's good, it's we we need to describe the the multifactorial things.And when I've when I've thought about it, 'cause I think about it a lot as well, again, because it's I guy that my statistics of people I know is actually really shocking.
It's it's it's shocking.So I think about it a lot and and when you describe the multifactorial things now it's almost it's almost comical.You always want to say, yeah let's design.If you if somebody said to you let's design a career that's going to make it most likely for you to want to to be able to commit suicide successfully you can't actually design it much better.
And so let's choose a bunch of people who are high performance perfectionists, often hard on ourselves as a general rule.And then we put you in a job that's really stressful and where they're going to question your integrity and you have high integrity and we make you do it a lot and then we make you care kill all the time and make you really good at it.
So that you learn that when things get really hard, there is a solution at the end of it.And then we say and now you know how to do it really well and the solution is right there in the safe.Just go over, go get it.When it when things get really hard, you have the answer.And I I often personally wonder about that last step, even just that I I read a think it was Malcolm Gladwell.
In one of his books, he talks about the phenomenon that happened in the UK when they installed piped gas.It's a gas oven, lethal gas, and the suicide rate in housewives skyrocketed.They weren't suddenly more depressed or had more thoughts of suicide.
They just had a really clean and easy means.I go, well, that's what we have.I think a lot of 'cause it's not, I don't think our profession is necessarily harder or more stressful than many other professions.I have many friends.I hear their job and I go, my job's not that bad actually.But what they lack is that a, that, as you say, that familiar?
Nobody's more familiar with death than us.I don't know.It is so multifactorial and it's just all that.And then at the end of that story, then they changed the formulation of the gas.I can't remember what they did and it dropped.It was as simple as that, just to take away the means.And I think like you bring up a really strong point.
So in Milner's study that she did, 80% was death.I I leave the bar.It's it's something familiar with us.We know what we're you know how to use it.We can predict the what's going to happen when using it.So I'm just going to read a quick little thing from Dalam's work, and it touches upon that.
And it says in a recent study found that among veterinarians with suicidal ideation in the past week, easy access to lethal medication in the workplace was associated with a six fold increase in their perceived likelihood of future suicide attempts compared to those locking at the lethal medication during business hours.
Yeah, because I just feel like many of of us.I don't say just vets.You might have a horrible day, you might have that one horrible day, but tomorrow you feel better.But if on that horrible day and it's just so easy.Yeah, I know in Canada we would actually write down the the amount we're delivering to each animal.
In saying that though, people can still pocket it and everything and that's that's I think where Kat and I are.You see the value of the living works assist training and becoming this caregiver because when you're seeing the colleagues that are, you're just suspicious that they're not doing OK.
Whether it's yourself or somebody that you know that can ask that question, that feels safe to ask that question, we need to be asking the question.Yeah.And that that's what I want to come to.So again, we we talked about the.That's a practical.Aspect, but ideally what we want is people to not get near there or not get to the point where it becomes an option even.
And I feel like that's where your work is going to come in is to that's a practical thing to deal with.But how do we we help people who have ideation identify first of all and help them?Is that your work?Is that what living works and and maids things about?
Yeah.That's right.So where we at?No, it's the the solution is so multifactorial and and layered and so I guess the question is where do we come in the big picture.And so as vet heard delivering living works training, we see ourselves as helping to intervene when someone is experiencing thoughts of suicide.
So there's heaps of stuff to prevent them ever getting to that stage, and there's important work being done.For example, Sophie's legacy and Flynn's walk.However, we're not going to because suicide is so multifactorial itself.There's no, I don't believe we can, you know, 100% no.
Eliminate.Move the stresses of the job.That might push you towards that.That's right.And so I think there will always be thoughts of suicide in a population.And so we're at the stage where we're saying OK, and that's going to happen.People will have thoughts of suicide in our profession.How can the people around them intervene?
How do we then support them?How do we check in with them?Like you said, identify and then support them to safety?Yeah.OK.So how?Well, one way is certainly asking the question.We've got to ask the question and that's one thing that you know we obviously.
That's a big the reason I pull this face is I told you I did that The living works there online.It's like a couple of hours or something, a little course many years ago.And it's confronting because part of the training is to say to somebody, hey, listen, are you having societal thoughts are you thinking about taking your own life?
Which that's a big question to ask.Like it's almost it's almost insult.You feel like you're insult because why don't they say no?They're like, fuck dude, no, but then this.But yeah, he's helping with this.Can I run you firstly through this, this model?OK, go and then we'll come back to the the idea of asking directly.
So basically the assist model takes you through three stages of supporting someone with thoughts of suicide and there's six components to that.So the first is about invitations.So we talk about the signs we might see in our colleagues.It can be words that they're using, it can be behaviours that you're noticing, it can be physical things like if they're looking a little dishevelled.
We talk about all of those things with invitations to check in with them and and to see what's going on for them.And so use that invitation just so it might strike up a conversation.Elena.Yeah.You're not looking quite like yourself today.What's going on?And then if she, you know, starts to talk and there's things more concerning and it's flagging bit of a red flag for me.
Hey, look, I think suicide might be on the cards here.The next step is then to ask directly.Elena, when people say things like this, sometimes they have thoughts about suicide.They're thinking about killing themselves.I just wanted to ask you, is that perhaps where you're at right now?On.A scale of one to 10.
OK, 10 being where are we on the scale?That's one way of doing it.I want to go back to the first step conversation So that feels like it goes back to the other big campaign that I love is the are you OK thing because we in in Australia for foreign listeners we we have the how you going really how you going.
But it it's not genuinely a question it's just like saying hello.I actually say hey how.And we also everybody says casually how, how are you good and we move on.Yeah, but actually when you see somebody, and that's something I've gotten better at over the years, is to to say how are you actually OK, you seem as you say tell them why are you concerned?
But then to differentiate, have you got clues for us?Because then it's easy when they say, Oh yeah, a shitty night's sleep, the baby's keeping me awake or trying to study or 100 reasons.And then it's easy to say, OK, cool, permission out if you need anything.But what are the warning signs then?
Things that they say there that'll make you pay attention a little bit more.Yeah, So, Oh, do you want to take Elena?Oh, I was just gonna say they're in the model.You do learn about just little subtle thing.Cat headset.But some of the things could be just, oh, I can't do it anymore, OK.
Yeah, gotcha.What?What does that?Mean existential crisis type responses, not.But then would you jump on that right away?Would you say, oh, OK, are you thinking about killing yourself or would you explore that a little bit more to say what do, what do you mean about that?You know, what does that mean to you?
You're not, you can't do this anymore.Yeah.OK.That helps.Yeah, I agree with your line exploring those invitations because they might not always be about suicide, but it's always worth exploring.And so to say a few more phrases that might make you think, OK, I think this is about suicide is I just can't do it anymore.
I'm done.I can't see a way out.There's no hope.So that's when you, you know, start exploring even more.What do you mean by that?At the same time I had a friend where I explored an invitation and it turned out not to be about suicide.And the real benefit of that is that I felt good that I asked found out it wasn't great outcome but also means I didn't miss it.
So that particular friend, they were giving away all their or selling all their furniture on Facebook marketplace and you know it's it can be a sign that they're getting ready to leave.But I said there's a 99% chance he just wants to get rid of his furniture.I just sat there thinking if it is something more I don't want to miss this.
I don't want to hear about his death and and know that I missed an invitation to talk about suicide.So I just messaged him say, oh hey, turns out all your Facebook marketplace posts are popping up on my feed.How are you going?And yeah, he's great.Turns out he was selling stuff.
He's gone overseas for a short stint and that was great and it gave me an opportunity to connect.I hadn't talked to him for a long while and it was great.And so yeah, I would encourage people that invitation.So those signs that you see might not always actually be about suicide, but it's worth checking out and.
That's what I like about your training and what you're trying to do with the herd immunity thing, because that somebody selling their stuff on Facebook to me would be nothing.But once you talk about these things and you go through a training program, you become the radar goes out, right?You put the antennas out then.
And if everybody, as you say, if it's just can't doing all this by itself, you're not going to catch everybody.But if you have an army of people who are 10% as astute as you and as as alert to other people's to what's happening to them, then the odds of picking something up just it's it's such a such a cool program.
I like it.And I think too, the important thing to highlight is so people could say, I just don't want to live anymore, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to kill myself.And so it's uncomfortable.It is.But it's learning to just say, OK, what does that mean to you?
And at that point could say something like, hey, Kat, you just said that and I'm, I'm feeling a bit alarmed about that.Does that mean you're going to, you're planning on killing yourself, right.And and really, confirming that suicide is what we're actually talking about, because some people might might not want to be here, but aren't going to do anything to hurt themselves.
And then that's the scary thing is.And then maybe that's why we're so scared of asking the question if you don't want to embarrass yourself.But listening to you talk about it, that's actually silly.Because if nothing else, you're going to show somebody that you you care enough to ask a brave question.So there's not really no harm in it.
But the I suppose the scary thing is what if they say yes, or they say yes?But actually, I I have been thinking about it like, oh shit, now what do I do?I don't know how to deal with this.Yeah.So the next step in the assist model, so it's first explore those invitations and then if there's enough exploring that leads you to think, hey, this actually might be a bit about suicide is to ask the question directly.
Are you having thoughts of suicide or you know, there's many ways that you can ask it in a way that feels comfortable to you.And if they say yes, we then move into the next phase of hearing their story.So tell me more about that.What's going on for you?What does that mean for you?
And so listening to what they've been through, what does suicide mean for them?Why are they thinking this?What have they they recently experienced and what's happening for them?So really sitting with them in that space and listening to to them and their needs and within that hearing their story, we want to find what living works, the training calls, turning points and so little glimmers of life, of of reasons to live.
So with turning points, it's important to know that as the caregivers, we are absolutely not manufacturing reasons to live for them.We are listening for glimmers of hope that they have.Whether it's seeing a family that they really care for or something in the future that they're still hoping for or even if they're just uncertain about suicide, that can still be a turning point that actually hey, there's life in them that's speaking they they do still want to live.
And our roles as assist caregivers is we help shine the the spotlight on that and say oh, it sounds like this might be something that is a reason for you to live.Like you're listening to their story and then you're listening out for turning points.
When you're listening for those turning points, it could be as simple as yeah, but it's OK.So does that work?Because a part of me goes, OK, well, somebody's that emotional, it's me trying to logic them out of it, going to help at all.
If I say I don't, I think you should consider it.Because what about what did your kids do to all this?A new?This is where we really encourage people to actually take the course because we can't get through, you know, doing it any justice within this time frame.
The next stage of the model though would be to explore their story and listen for those turning points.And then you move through the model to then say, OK, if you hear these turning points, OK, then let's create a plan of safety.But it's not driven by you at all, It's driven by them.
And so it's exploring what they have, who they can talk with, who we can involve because it's not just that person.And and so I think what happens with asking or people, one of the inhibiting factors I think sometimes happens is because then you feel like you have to do it all and you it all of a sudden becomes yours to then figure out.
Right.And the beautiful thing about the model is it really says no, OK we're a community.You've got to involve other people because it's not going to be you figuring out the plan putting that person through therapy or anything.So it's a.Skill that you can learn and and I've Listening to your conversation today makes me feel like you should learn.
Should learn.We'd best I asked in the beginning where where does our responsibility stop.But it's a work and work health and safety issue, just like we have to do radiology training, radiology safety training or if you work with chemotherapeutics, exactly that sort of stuff, that's where we need to do course.
Well, it's an insertional model.And so you insert yourself, get to a place where you can keep them safe for now, and then you exit out of it and they continue and and looking at, actually, they had the model set out.Each and every point on that page has a reason.
And it's beautiful, because then it just loops around.Once that model's done, the line, which is the person continues because you've done your bit, and then they do theirs.Now like what you said right in the beginning, cat about you don't need to swim by reading a book.It's I, I, I love Seth Godin.
He or he use it.The bicycle.You don't ride a bike by reading a book.And again, This is why you need the the training because it's like consultation training.That's why there are workshops now for veterinarians to get better at having conversations in consults.And it's one of those important conversations and you may need to have one day and actually practice again because, and I I noted it when I did that course years ago, just the online one, part of the online course was they make you turn on your camera and ask your computer, I have a pretend conversation or they had an actor or something like that and you have to ask them, are you thinking of taking your own life?
And I've it squirmed.It was me and my computer.But by the 10th time you do it, it's a lot easier.Yeah, and that's the the beautiful thing about the course itself.It's so practical, based.You practice and you've practice and you practice, yeah.
That's so cool.So where do we go?Are you guys up and running now?If if somebody's listening to this sort of practice owner or something and they go shoot, yeah, we should do this.Is it up and running?Can we do it?Where do we send them?Can I just add that I can definitely relate to your experience of squirming with asking before I did the skills training.
I would beat around the Bush and not feel confident saying the word suicide.I would ask you safe.Should we?Should we are?You thinking about harming yourself when there's real benefits, and we discussed this in the Assist workshop of the benefits of saying saying the word itself and asking directly it.
It's really in the service of the person to ask clearly and directly about suicide.Is there any sort of a risk It's a silly thought but of by asking let's say somebody that you you initiate that conversation they go I just can't do this anymore and you ask a few follow up questions and you go this this is maybe a worry.
Is there any risk of saying of putting this suicide thought in their head?Yeah, that you're pushing them into direction towards the lift.Barb safe.Oh, it's such a great question, 'cause I do think of that, yeah, I wouldn't want.To talk about it.
Just like the Boogeyman, you can't say his name because you're going to bring him forth.Yeah.And So what happens if you ask about the Bigamian?Does he come?Yeah, it There's a lot of evidence to show that in most situations, asking about suicide is actually beneficial, and you're not going to induce or exacerbate the thoughts of suicide within a person.
If they're in that headspace, they're they're already thinking about stuff, so you're not going to implant that thought by asking them.And there's research to show between adolescent kids who, heck, they're they're so impressionable.Impressionable.Yes, they felt we were coming out.
Yeah.Yeah.There's research to show that adolescents who are so impressionable adults that are already have anxiety or depression, that asking about suicide has actually been beneficial and it's reduced the risk.Yeah, if anybody's.
Yeah.Looking for the research.We've got certainly lots of resources up my sleeve.And I would encourage people.You're far more likely to help someone than to harm them by asking about it.Yeah.Yeah, the the flip side of the thought process for me is that maybe they're subconsciously mulling it over, but they maybe even have it acknowledged to themselves.
If that's where their their dark thoughts are going, is that is there something of that, a new saying, the word they might go, oh shit, yes, that's no good.Yeah, exactly.And and now you've got it out in the open, you've reduced the stigma and you've invited them to work through it together.
You know, you've signalled to them already.You're someone who they can talk to because you've you've brought it out into the open.And I think, again, that's why, and I want to ask how do we get trained on this?Because I still think there's a part of the resistance to do that is, is because I don't necessarily want to take on that responsibility because I don't feel like I have the skills.
So once I ask you and you say yes, and then I go, oh shit, now I know this thing and I have to do something about it and I don't know what to do about it.So I'd rather not ask.Yeah, so if you've decided from this conversation you want to learn how to do interventions, you want to know how to help someone who's having thoughts of suicide, I would encourage you to contact us.
We our emails are probably the best way to contact us and talk to us about doing assist.So an assist workshop and so it's a two day workshop in person.So it there's so many benefits of of having it in person including the the practical skill components.
And so yeah, reach out to us about doing the workshops.We're in the process of trying to get workshops up and running.It's not easy because the workshops themselves to host are between 10 to $15,000 and because we are passionate about making this training really accessible to the to people in the industry, we're trying to get it as subsidized as possible.
So to really decrease any barriers to accessing the training, there's certainly more barriers to coming.I know it's a huge thing to ask of it to take two days off work to come do the training and we need employers to support their people to to come on paid time.And thankfully we have had that.
We have had employers send their staff during work time to attend the workshop and but that's why it's an industry effort And so yeah, I would encourage them if they think, hey, I really want this skill set, I am willing to invest two days to learn this with my peers.Yeah, definitely.Reach out to to the two of us and maybe at the end of the podcast we can.
You'd be happy to share our best contact details.Well, check it on now.I will give us your contact details.I will put them in the show description and which means wherever you're listening to this with it, Spotify or Apple or anything, Scroll down there.I'm going to have an e-mail there that you can copy or paste.If all else fails, contact the vet file through Instagram or e-mail or anything and I'll call one of these guys for.
Me the best place to then contact us is cat Kat at vetherd.com dot AU.So again, vet herd is VETHERD like a herd of animal.Or Alena ALEN a@vetherd.com dot AU.
OK, cool.But I was thinking, maybe this is a really great time to explain that we're just two people, 2 does not meet home.What we really need is funding.So with MATES and Construction, did you hear that they had the initial study, which was funded by industry that was $150,000, but we can do a lot cheaper now.
That was 20 years ago.They were given $400,000 to start Mates and Construction, whereas us it's Kat and Elena without pocket money.Is there anything in this conversation so far?We'll do our wrap up questions in a minute, but that I've missed out on around the program about any resources, anything you want people to know or understand about this topic or about you guys that I've not asked.
I think that just recognizing that we're we're trying to make a difference and knowing that we're not a specialist within the space.We we're we know stuff and we're connected with people that are helping us out, which is really lovely.
But to really emphasizing the community within that we're trying to create and we really need other people's help because like you said, or what was that cat, the beautiful thing you sent me the other day where you can't have every therapist in a clinic, but we have each other.
The model of networks of safety is just recognizing how much power there is in the people around us to to save lives.And we often think.When we think of suicide, we often think about going to your GP and your psychologist, which are great options, absolutely.
I've used them and and would highly recommend them to people in need.At the same time, we don't have a psychologist on every street corner.We don't have a psychologist in every vet clinic, but we have each other.And I feel like if you're in a bad place, and I've experienced this not nearly at the on the suicide end of the scale, it becomes harder to proactively seek help.
If I'm I'm not good.And now I'm going to go and Google and speak to the receptionist.Oh no, next appointment is 2 months from now.It's just like fuck, I can't.Yeah, never mind.So I'm going to jump in here with the Norvet study again.
And though yeah, she certainly found that vets are low help seekers, hands down we can certainly see the attitudes towards seeking help, but actually the behaviours we we don't seek help and only half of her participants that were identified as people that needed to seek help only happens did and.
Is it partially because we are by default by by training and by training problem solvers, so we go yeah, I could solve this.Many different, Yeah.Stigma stigma's one of them.The just the shame and the guilt of feeling, oh, I can't figure this out myself.
I'm not going to ask anybody.The caregiver complex of where we always provide care, we don't want to ask for it.Yeah, and I would absolutely champion anyone in their help seeking behaviour.It is such an important skill and I cheer anyone on who does it.At the same time, we can't just depend on people asking for help like you're saying.
And so this is where the living works training.So even there's the shorter courses, shorter than assist, but it flips it on its head.It's saying this isn't about help seeking.We're proactively help offering.Can you see with exploring the invitations, it's not that person asking for help, it's us noticing and offering help proactively.
And I think too just linking other workplaces with the construction industry, that's why it's been so effective in the construction workers because they're they're bad help seekers as well.And so models like this, like Kat just said, it's it's us.
It's that person saying, wait a minute, you're not doing well.So I'm going to ask you some questions.I'm going to explore this versus US being like, OK, I'm not doing well, I need to book an appointment.I need to do this.I I don't have time.Yeah, it's actually quite inspirational that it that it is the construction workers who did this because they this is a sort of stereotype in my head at least.
I've and I know I've got a lot of good friends who are construction workers.I've the blokey blokes, stuff up a lip.Get on this shit.Don't be a wingy, but I mean when you bastard.So I love that they've built something where they can actually talk openly about their emotions.I loved it.
I spent some time on their website.I've still highlight my favorite scientific article, journal article title ever.The title of the article is and you feel like you're Suffocating.How the fuck am I going to get out of all of this?Yeah.Brilliant.And I I really love that it's so industry specific a mates in construction mentors are always quick to remind us to really consult the vet industry about what they want, what works for them.
It's so tempting to do a copy paste from the construction industry's suicide prevention model to make it, you know exactly the same for the vet industry.But they always remind us to to fit it to what our industry needs.So yeah, Kat and I have been having lots of good conversations with our industry and different people to just say, OK, what do you need?
And as we grow, considering what people have told us to.And so we want to follow the the principles of Co design, but it's.Not.Cat and Elena designing a suicide intervention program for the industry.Can you imagine how bad that way?Oh.Jeez, no.We need, we need people to tell us what to do.
Yeah, we're all about consulting.We call it herd consultation.So consulting the industry like you know your needs best.We need to listen.So that'll be a big part of our work.It's it's not just us designing a system.It's us really listening some deep listening to the people on the ground who are experiencing these things.
What do they think will work, what do they think the barriers are and really taking that on board and Co creating this with them.Again, it's the vet herd is supposed to be for the industry.By the industry, yeah.Fantastic, right?So let's wrap it up with the more personal questions.
Again SO podcast listening.Other than psychology podcast Cat, do you have any favourites?Are you a podcast listener?Or you can give us your favorite psychology ones as well, OK?I was going to say it absolutely is a psychology podcast, and I'm glad you know him as well.It would be Adam Grant.Oh yeah, lovely.
Podcast.So that's all psychology, and at its best.If you'd want to know anything about organizational psychology and how psychology is used to make workplaces awesome, or, as he says, make work suck a little less, something like that, I'd encourage you to look up Adam Grant.
OK.Cool.Mine's a bit different.Mine is the Huberman lab.Have you?Oh, you just you like it?Is that?Just, yeah, We afterwards we'll talk for ages on the most recent talk.I love that you love.That one neurology, see, it's.Yeah, he's a neurobiologist and it's all about the body and the brain and how that affects our personality and behaviour.
It's it's, yeah, I can listen to that day in, day out.Any stand out episodes for him that that you loved?I'm just curious.Yeah, I know there's there's really a couple.There's a really cool one about inside 'cause he's got me some ophthalmology background and everything too, but also just the whole waking up routine.
Have you explored that?Exposure.Yeah, try to live by it.Oh, fabulous coffee.Do you have 90 minutes for shopping?I'm trying.OK, all right, fine.Depends on on how strong I'm feeling on the day does help, though it it definitely makes a difference.So again, the the what Elaine is referring to is he's it's not a theory.
The science behind if you have a coffee first thing in the morning, it's much more likely that you're gonna need multiple coffees to keep you going during the day.Whereas if you delay that first coffee by about 90 minutes, it's a long 90 minutes, but the the day goes better.Yeah, I need to rethink my life.I have it within the 1st 5 minutes.
It's.Like the first thing.I think Atomic Habit touches upon that a little bit, where it's like you wake up like your habit is don't go and turn the coffee machine on and everything but.Yeah.So I'm trying to replace the morning routine with daylight, sit outside for half an hour and then go.
What about the cold showers you got to throw in the cold?Showers, we'll get that.The pass along question that I introduced a while ago where I asked previous guest for a question for the next guest not knowing who the guest is going to be.So questions for you guys.I only have the one because there was only one guest that was from Mike Whack Vale who was the Ava president at A at a stage and he said what's stopping you from contributing to the profession in other ways than you?
Currently I am and for you guys I I don't feel if it's a a relevant question because I feel like you are really trying to contribute in other ways.So maybe the question is what?What was stopping you?No, I think we want to answer it is what is go funding money.Now we we want to do more, but need funding, support to do and the the backing of industry from all angles.
Yeah, we've got fabulous resources and connections behind us.It's just a matter of funding.So if you anybody's listening to this and you're in a a big business or an industry or you have control of the purse strings and this moves you, you know how to get e-mail.
And so to just give you some ballpark fears in what you can invest into this movement, it's to to hold an assist workshop for up to 30 binary professionals and we're talking between 10 to $15,000.And that's everything.That's the venue, that's catering, that's training, the, the work kits, everything.
There's another level that's cost.To you or is that cost to a business?Let's say I have a vet business.That's what we would charge so that we could cover costs but also build better.Yeah, there's training if a clinic would only like to or would like to.
Not only would like to commit to say 4 hours, if they'd be happy to shut their doors for four hours and learn some skills.It's not the full full assist model, but it helps you recognise signs and connect someone to safety.That workshop for up to 30 people is 4 to $5000 and other ways if you don't have a spare $5000 in your pocket.
Other ways that you can support is reaching out to us about participating in the training.You can speak to people that in the the profession that might be willing to sponsor it and employers play such a significant role as well in supporting their staff to go their staff to attend.
Because I guess that the vision is that we wouldn't want staff to have to do this.It's it's quite a heavy course that it it can be quite emotional 2 days we we envision veterinary staff going on their paid time and being supported by employers to access this life saving training and not needing to do it on their their weekend and then go back to work the next day.
Also just the funding towards any kind of research and and everything I've got I think a little bit of a passion of reading articles and all the work.So yeah, certainly research is needed and open to having conversations about what that looks like and how we can help.And our pillars are certainly awareness, the education.
And it's not just educating our fellow colleagues, but it's also just all the different mental health sector, the government, just spreading the kind word that way, community and then yeah, research, building, building some current numbers so we can address it.
All right.Last question the the one question.So you have the opportunity somebody invites vetted to do a talk to all of the veterinary new grads in the world, but as yourselves not specifically, it doesn't have to be suicide prevention related.What's cats?One message.Yeah, my one message is I would talk to them about self compassion, about being kind to themselves.
So if I had five minutes, I have a one hour presentation that I would condense into 5 minutes.I would talk about self compassion.I would tell them the the three components of it.I would talk to them about the difference between tender self compassion and fierce self compassion.
I would talk to them about the psychological benefits of it and really encourage them on how to to live that out in practice.Because as you said, I think vets are so, so hard on themselves as a general rule and often to our detriment.I think we often do it for for good intentions, but I think it often has dire consequences and self compassion has been life changing for me and my well-being and how I treat myself and others.
So I would really want to share that.That's my one thing I would share to them.Awesome.Yeah, Kind of building on that is, for me, it's the core values, right?Really knowing who you are and what you show up as.I felt that and I talked about it a little bit earlier but doing that exercise was life changing because I can just see the world in a really different place.
And I talked to a lot of mentees and they just don't know how they're fitting in and it's because they actually haven't looked within themselves.And I've had a couple comments just and it's just it's nothing that I've created it's what I've learned and just passed along and I think that was one of the best career changing things that I did do was is really looking inside myself to see who I was and.
And it's a conscious decision to do that.It doesn't just happen.Yeah, you get stuck in your everyday life and one day just becomes the next and and the same stupid thoughts go through your head.And to break that pattern you have to go, OK, I need to spend some time thinking about this and getting to know myself and make time for it.
That's a big deal.And it's it's a hard task.I wouldn't remember when she first said, OK, do this.I was like, oh, OK, what does this mean?So it takes time.The the the human episode I was listening to now, which I'll chat to you right afterwards.But it's with David Coggins the Oh yeah master of self flagellation.
And and he describes it as you have to go into the the deep, dark cupboards of your subconscious and there's some scary stuff in there.Sometime you have to unpack them and spring clean.Yeah, so I'll spring clean.Love it.I love purging.I've moved country so many times that I'm just like.
All right guys, that is amazing.I love the work that you're doing.I I could have just spoken to you the whole time just about pivots career pivots and and finding your your passion it's almost A2 parter.But thank you so much for what you guys are doing with us and taking it on.I'm so glad your squiggly careers LED you to this, because I think it'd be really important work.
And I hope, I really hope, that there are people listening to this who get straight off the podcast and onto e-mail and say hand up, how can I help?What can I do?Or yes, $50,000.Either or Yeah, take.Thank you.
Anyone who wants to reach out to us, absolutely please do.This is meant to be an industry movement where everyone has a role so big or small, it all matters.And if you don't know what your role is, we would love to chat to you and help explore that with you.Before you run away, just a little postscript for this episode.
Since we recorded this, a couple of things have been happening for the team at Redhead.They're very excited for an upcoming two day workshop in suicide prevention, specifically for the veteran community sponsored by Flynn's Walk which will be on the 18th and 19th of July in Brisbane and Queensland.
This workshop is going to cover all the stuff that we talked about in this episode about what you could do as an individual to prevent a suicide.This goes from all the tricky stuff about how to talk to it, how to connect to somebody, how to help them, way to send them for further help.I'm going to put a link for that in the show description.
Don't check it out and support these guys in any way that you can.

Dr Kat Williams

Dr Alena Gadoury