May 3, 2024

#119: You’re Already a Forensic Vet - You Just Didn’t Know It: How to Get Better at It, and Why It Matters. With Dr Elizabeth Pearlman

#119: You’re Already a Forensic Vet - You Just Didn’t Know It: How to Get Better at It, and Why It Matters. With Dr Elizabeth Pearlman

This episode dives into the fascinating and emotionally charged world of veterinary forensics with Dr. Elizabeth Pearlman, who shares insights into her unique career. From investigating suspected cases of animal abuse and neglect to collaborating with law enforcement, her work blends science, detective skills, and advocacy for animals. Dr. Liz recounts compelling cases, highlighting how thorough documentation, forensic examination, and collaboration with agencies can lead to justice for abused animals. The conversation also covers the challenges veterinarians face when identifying and addressing animal cruelty, offering practical advice for spotting red flags, documenting findings, and managing the emotional toll of such work. Listeners gain a deeper appreciation for the critical role of forensic veterinarians in improving animal welfare and uncovering truths in the darkest of circumstances.

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Season 1

You know when you see that case, usually some sort of traumatic injury , where something feels a bit 'off'. Maybe the story doesn't fit the injury, or it's the third time you've seen this patient in the last few months. Whatever it is - there are alarm bells...

In this episode forensic veterinarian Dr Elizabeth Pearlman tells us why it's so important that you listen to those alarm bells, how to get better at hearing them, while sharing a structured plan for what to do about it to help us bring a bit of light to the darker aspects of human-animal interactions, without compromising your own wellbeing.

Dr Elizabeth Pearlman is a forensic veterinarian for the ASPCA’s Veterinary Forensic Science Center in Gainesville FL. A childhood of watching Animal Cops on Animal Planet sent her on her path to veterinary science and eventually a Masters degree in Veterinary Forensic Science. She has practiced as a private practice emergency veterinarian and as a staff veterinarian for the Houston SPCA, and In 2018, she joined The ASPCA full-time as a forensic veterinarian. In her position, she assists law enforcement agencies nationwide with the identification, documentation, and collection of forensic evidence from crime scenes, live animals, and deceased animals. Additionally, she authors reports based on her findings and testifies in court as an expert witness.

In this episode Liz gives us a peek into the career of a forensic vet. She shares practical advice and resources on how to deal with cruelty and neglect cases, including evidence gathering, documentation, reporting, working with law enforcement and even how to get over your fear of being an expert witness in court. If you feel like this might be the job for you - Liz also lays out a few possible career pathways for us.

Topic List:

01:56 - The Reality of Forensic Veterinary Work

02:26 - Case of Suspected Chicken Abuse

03:42 - Abby's Case: A Deep Dive

07:43 - Impact of Forensic Work on Animal Welfare

08:14 - Veterinary Forensics Education and Reporting

11:07 - Another Case Study: Khaleesi

14:07 - Discussion on Non-Accidental Injuries

16:12 - Overview of a Forensic Vet's Role

18:53 - Forensic Veterinary Opportunities in the U.S. and Abroad

22:31 - Educational Resources and Career Paths in Forensic Veterinary Medicine

25:54 - Handling Suspicions of Animal Abuse in Practice

28:33 - Emotional Challenges in Forensic Veterinary Work

36:01 - Importance of Detailed Documentation in Suspected Abuse Cases

38:21 - Court Appearances and Testifying as a Forensic Vet

40:08 - Maintaining Emotional Health in Forensic Veterinary Roles

43:56 - Closing Thoughts and Stoic Philosophy in Veterinary Practice

Resources from Dr Pearlman:

Continuing Education Opportunities:

 

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Understanding Veterinary Forensics

Veterinary forensic medicine, while similar to general practice in some ways, differs significantly in its focus on investigating animal cruelty and providing evidence for potential legal cases.
The work involves:
  • Examining animals for signs of abuse or neglect. This includes looking for patterns of injury, such as bilateral rib fractures, scleral hemorrhage, or hemoabdomen, which are strong indicators of non-accidental injury.
  • Gathering evidence. This may involve taking detailed photographs, performing necropsies, and collecting samples for DNA analysis.
  • Working with law enforcement agencies to build a case. Forensic vets may need to provide expert testimony in court, explaining their findings and offering their professional opinion on the cause of an animal's injuries.
While the work is crucial for animal welfare, it can be emotionally taxing due to the nature of the cases. Self-care and a supportive team environment are essential for forensic vets to cope with the emotional burden of the job.
Here are some key takeaways from our conversation, particularly relevant to general practitioners who may encounter potential animal cruelty cases:
  • Be vigilant and observant. Don't dismiss unexplained injuries or inconsistent histories as mere oddities. Consider the possibility of abuse, especially when red flags, like those mentioned above, are present.
  • Document thoroughly. Detailed clinical records, including specific descriptions of physical findings rather than generic terms like “WNL”, can be crucial in building a case later on. Similarly, taking comprehensive photos can provide valuable visual evidence.
  • Know your reporting protocols. Familiarise yourself with the relevant animal welfare organisations and law enforcement agencies in your area and understand the legal requirements for reporting suspected cruelty cases. Having a clear protocol in place within your practice can make the process less daunting.
  • Don't hesitate to reach out for support. There are resources available to help veterinarians navigate the complexities of animal cruelty cases. The ASPCA, for example, offers free training and resources on veterinary forensics. Organisations like the International Veterinary Forensic Symposium (IVFSA) provide a platform for professionals to connect and share their expertise.
Remember, as veterinarians, we have a duty of care to animals, and sometimes that means being their voice when they can't speak for themselves. By being informed and proactive, general practitioners can play a vital role in protecting animals from harm and ensuring justice is served.

Building Skills in Veterinary Forensics

While there isn't a formal veterinary forensic specialisation, there are numerous avenues to develop expertise in this area. The episode highlights several practical steps and resources that can enhance your skills:
  • Embrace a Mindset of Vigilance: The episode emphasises the importance of heightened awareness and a willingness to question inconsistencies. Don't dismiss unexplained trauma or odd presentations. Instead, cultivate a healthy scepticism, especially when common red flags like bilateral rib fractures, scleral haemorrhage, or haemoabdomen are present.
  • Elevate Your Documentation: Detailed and precise record-keeping is paramount in forensic cases. Go beyond simply noting "WNL" (within normal limits). Instead, provide specific descriptions of your physical exam findings. For instance, rather than stating "musculoskeletal within normal limits," describe observations like "symmetrical, no lameness on gross examination, joints are smooth on palpation, ambulating times four". This level of detail strengthens the evidentiary value of your documentation.
  • Standardise Photographic Evidence: Develop a systematic approach to photographing injuries and overall animal condition. The episode mentions that the ASPCA Pro website provides guidance on standardised photo series for forensic examination. Consistent and high-quality photographs can be compelling visual evidence in legal proceedings.
  • Engage in Continued Learning: Take advantage of the resources available to expand your knowledge and skills.
    • The International Veterinary Forensic Symposium (IVFSA) offers annual conferences with continuing education opportunities, bringing together experts from around the globe to share knowledge and experiences.
    • The ASPCA provides free veterinary forensic training, including remote sessions suitable for veterinary associations or groups.
    • University Programmes: Consider exploring master's programmes in veterinary forensics, such as those offered by Florida International University in partnership with the ASPCA, or the University of Florida.
    • Publications: Utilise valuable resources like Dr. Rachel Touroo's 2022 publication, "Minimum Clinical Standards for Forensic Examination," which offers step-by-step guidance on conducting forensic exams and report writing.
    • Online Resources: Explore the ASPCA Pro website for practical resources, including "one-pagers" that offer quick reference guides on specific types of abuse, such as animal sexual abuse, non-accidental injury, trauma, and fighting. These guides can help you identify potential cases and respond appropriately.
  • Cultivate Relationships with Relevant Agencies: Proactively connect with local animal control officers, law enforcement agencies, and animal welfare organisations. Establish a rapport and open communication channels. These relationships can make reporting suspected abuse cases smoother and more efficient.
  • Develop a Practice Protocol: Create a clear, step-by-step protocol within your clinic for handling suspected abuse cases. This protocol should outline reporting procedures, contact information for relevant agencies, and guidelines for evidence collection and documentation. Having a standardised protocol ensures a consistent and effective approach.
Remember, every veterinarian can contribute to animal welfare by incorporating forensic awareness and practices into their work. By developing your skills and utilising available resources, you can become a more effective advocate for vulnerable animals.

 

Have you noticed that there's two main responses?When you meet someone new and they hear that you're a vet, there's the Oh, how lovely.That must be amazing.Hey, can I ask you a question?My schnackersackerzoodle's ears are always itchy.Then there's the I don't know how you guys do it.
You must see such horrible things.Can I ask you a question about my Blue mill Frenchy camp?I don't know.Maybe I'm lucky, maybe I'm naive, but I don't perceive that.I see a lot of horrible.Things.Gross things, yes, and sad things, but not often malicious stuff or horrible neglect.
Except everyone.Again, you do or are almost worse than overt cases of cruelty or neglect.Are those cases that just give you the tingles, that icky feeling in the pit of your stomach?That something's a bit off?In this conversation, our guest, Doctor Elizabeth Pearlman, guides us on how to get better at hearing those alarm bells and following the scent of suspicion to help you find the right doctor.
Elizabeth Pearlman is a forensic veterinarian for the ASPC as Veterinary Forensic Science Center in Gainesville, FL.Liz grew up watching animal cops on Animal Planet, which center on a path to veterinary science and eventually a master's degree in veterinary forensic science.
She's practiced as a private Practice emergency vet and as a star veterinarian for the Houston SPCA, and in 2018 she joined the ASPCA full time as a forensic veterinarian.In her position, she assists law enforcement agencies nationwide with the identification, documentation and collection of forensic evidence from crime scenes, live animals, and deceased animals.
Additionally, she authors reports based on her findings and testifies in court as an expert witness.In this episode, she'll tell us why you are already a forensic vet and how to get better at it.She gives practical tips on what alarm bells to look and listen for to ensure that cruelty cases don't slip under the radar, as well as how to act on it bravely because it's important we round off the conversation with excellent advice on evidence collection, the ethics of reporting your suspicions, working with law enforcement, and even how to not fear the possibility of having to be an expert witness in court yourself.
Oh, and you might listen to this and go, this is my thing.That's what I want to do.Like CSI forensic vetting stuff for a job.Well, Elizabeth has us on that front as well, with information and resources on how to build a career as a forensic vet.But first, we start with a few stories and be warned, we jump straight in with some content that you might not want your kids to hear unless you want to answer some very weird questions.
Please enjoy Doctor Elizabeth Pearlman.So I have to start with this question.I I'm watching this murder mystery on TVI.
Forget the name, but it's a classic sort of whodunit chillic homes CSI type thing, which of course are.Now I'm prepping for my interview with you and I.Immunity think.I wonder that's what a job's like a little bit.And I and I, I'll start with cool cases.Have you had any bizarre or really puzzling or interesting cases in your job as a forensic vet that you can start us off with with Story Time?
Sure.I feel like every case that I end up working on ends up being a cool case, so it's hard to pick one or two off the top of my head.We recently had a case where there was potential sexual abuse of a chicken and it ended up being completely natural cause of death with no evidence of sexual abuse.
Or there's the variety somebody's murdered this cat and there's a cat head or a cat body on my front lawn and it ends up being a coyote.Did it based on DNA selection of the area that is left of the cat will swap for DNA analysis of saliva.We see everything that ranges from very serious and heinous crimes, like animal sexual abuse or puppies that have been beaten multiple times with evidence of injury to animals that have for some reason or another been starved and then they completely rehabilitate and are adopted out into loving homes.
So we're able to follow them.So I have roughly 2 stories if you're interested, but that's kind of an overview of our our work.We see such a spectrum of things that somebody is very gung ho that it's a case and there's a suspect and we're going to get them and that ends up being nothing.
And we have other cases where it's a stray dog and the only thing they have is a microchip or no information to go off of.And we we were like, I wonder if it'll go anywhere and then it goes all the way to prosecution.So it kind of keeps us out all on our toes and it's fun to to work through.So it really is because I had this, you know, I hear forensic fate and I immediately think the cool stuff, the CSI stuff, right.
And but then I always go, oh, it's probably not as romantic and exciting as that, but it actually is.It really is that cool.Well, so as you said, some of the stuff's not cool at all, but interesting.Sorry, but you completely floored me with chicken sexual abuse.He.Has, I know.
Have you ever had a case of chicken sexual abuse, or was it just a suspected case that turned out not to be?There were a variety of circumstantial pieces of evidence that were reported to have resulted in this chicken, like feathers and underwear and a suspicious partner.
And it's culturally appropriate for them to do it where the suspect is from.And now they're stateside and the partner is concerned that this individual is sexually abusing their chickens.And so there was a lot of circumstantial stuff that is interesting, 'cause if I were a veterinarian in general practice or a veterinarian without forensic experience, I would hear these things and be like, it's got to be sexual abuse.
But then with our forensic training and guidance, there's literally methodical, no matter whether we suspect it to be sexual abuse.I don't think that until there's scientific evidence of it, right?Like, we are here to be the bridge between law enforcement or an investigating agency in the veterinary world.
So if there's science that there is semen, then I want to know, is it animal semen or is it human semen?Because I can't tell you unless I know the difference, right.So there's additional testing that we can do.So I have had cases of sexual abuse with animals, but this one was there was no evidence of sexual abuse.
It was natural cause of death.So the case was not perceived by local law enforcement.Wow.OK, so tell me some cool cases.I'd love to know the actual real ones.Sure.One of the most nearest and dearest to my heart if you will is a case about Abby.
So Abby is a 16 week old female, intact Pitbull type dog and she presented to an emergency facility because her owner said she has profusely had blood coming out of her mouth.So he carries her in, she's got perfuse blood coming out of her mouth and she's minimally responsive.
The emergency facility immediately started triaging getting an IV catheter in her and getting some baseline blood work to be able to assess her like what's going on with her and also gathering history.And during that time she ended up like as we all know on this podcast things don't go as orderly as we expect them to.
So while that's all going on another person went to get history and unfortunately Abby coded and CPR was performed and then in follow up to that the owner request that CPR be discontinued.What was beautiful about this case is that the veterinarian assessing Abby in front of him saw that her signs and this like non specific history of I think he said the owner said.
I think I fell in Abby's head.The severity of her presenting with muffled heart sounds, obtunded mentation, her profuse amount of blood coming from her oral cavity and her nose didn't really match with the history and so he did a beautiful job of knowing who to reach out to for his local law enforcement.
And so Abby unfortunately did pass away after CPR was discontinued.And because Abby is considered evidence in that case, the local jurisdiction got a warrant to seize her body which was then sent to our facility in Gainesville, FL.So I work at the, it's a mouthful, but it's the ASPCA Veterinary Forensic Science Center and we are the first free standing veterinary forensic center dedicated to companion animals.
So we accept all any anywhere in the nation of the US bodies can be sent to us for free forensic necropsy.The only cost to the agency would be shipping cooler to send it to us, but we even pay for the shipping.So Abby came to us.
I did external examination as well as full body X-rays which is standard for our animals coming in for necropsy.But and on X-ray we saw just she lit up with broken bones everywhere at different stages of healing.She had you know chemo abdomen, fluid in the abdomen, fluid in the chest and there was just this significant amount of injury throughout her body.
So after that X-rays they then went forward with doing an internal examination through knee cropsy.And on that I also found additional evidences of recent Black Horse trauma that were not necessarily breaking bones but different distributions and healing stages of bruising.
And then I also found evidence of sexual abuse with her.So when I look at Abby and the owner was convicted and has mandated to undergo mental health evaluation, a no animal order and a fine and a few other things that were also ordered by the court.
But what really stands out to me about Abby is how this veterinarian had just an inkling.Something doesn't feel right with Abby's case.The history doesn't match up with the severity of the injuries that I'm looking at and it really, really resonates with me because the work that I do as a forensic veterinarian, anybody can do.
It's not necessarily that I hold a specific degree that then allows me to.This is a very, very accessible field and just it can be as intense or as involved as you'd like it to be, but it doesn't have to be all or nothing.And so Abby, really, I do feel that Abby got justice in the amount of information that we learned from her case that I now incorporate to presentations that I, you know, present for.
It was a very, very sad case for obvious reasons, but in that there was a lot of benefit that came from, I don't want to say benefit, that's the wrong word.There was a lot of information that was learned through that experience of working with Abby.Information.
And then also the, as you said, the the sense of justice.Or at least saying, OK, well that person is not going to own another pet, so at least we're going to spare some poor other unfortunate animal going through the same stuff.As you say, fantastic.
Work for that emergency vet to follow up on his hunch, because we all have those scenarios where you go This is weird, but it's easier to just ignore it and just go, oh Oh well, that's mystery.The next consult is here.And stateside, a lot of veterinary schools don't teach veterinary forensics.
So if there are states in the US that mandate veterinarians report and yet the vet schools are not consistently teaching it.I feel that there's an obvious information gap that I'm just so impressed with this veterinarian's ability to have the forethought to document what he was seeing at the time of as well as handling the emotional trauma of what he's seeing, the emotional trauma of what he's anticipating that it's from.
And then also staying cool to document his findings, including his detailed history was influential in the outcome.And he had the suspect did have a new puppy matching Abby's description when he was arrested.It's interesting you mentioned the and I would love to come back to it, but I will just underline you said that vet having the basically having to deal with the emotional aspect of this.
But I almost feel like responding and doing something about it is a solve.Solve is a is a cure for that emotional stuff.Because in red new practice we do see those cases where you don't act and it can bother you forever where you'll have this thing sticking in the back of your head going.
I remember that case that I feel a bit sick and and you never got to the bottom of it.So I think actually acting on it will help with those little micro traumas that we experience sometimes as vets.Absolutely.And I have chills hearing you say that because that was one of the biggest things that our agency really, really advocates is animal cruelty.
I don't care what practice you're in, even ophthalmology, animal cruelty is happening and coming through the doors.I'm not going to say at a high rate, right, depending on what your specialty is or GP or ER or whatever it is, but it's happening.And the difference in that is whether a veterinarian can identify what's then, you know the concerns and the pattern either either from the history provided or the animals injuries and distribution of injuries or whatever it is and really be prepared before that animal comes in.
Because that's one of the stressors that a lot of veterinarians struggle with is there's no protocol.So if you can imagine, you're a first year vet student and I put a cat in front of you and say, OK, say it.You haven't gone through anatomy, you haven't seen one be done unless you did previous work with that.
Whereas I was doing anaesthesia, right?There's so many other moving components and that's essentially what's ending up happening most frequently with these animal cruelty cases is that we're just throwing vets in without the prep work or the foundation.So I strongly advocate, we strongly, strongly advocate and encourage preparation for it.
It also can lessen the stress.And I love your comment about micro healing for that situation.There's something that you weren't doing about it.Hey, have I told you that a bunch of our clinical podcasts are now race approved?That means that you can now claim full CE points for listening to our subscriber stream, even in places that require race approval for point allocation.
But the points are not the point.They're just a box to tick.The point is competence and confidence.The point is enjoying work more because you know what you're doing.Contact us at infothevetvault.com to find out more about race points or sign up at VVN.
That's VVN for vetvaultnetwork.supercast.com.Have you got another story?I have so many questions, but you said you had two cool cases.Hit us with another case because in that case brought up so many things for me.So let's see what this one brings.So another more of a feel good story because Abby is very heavy and I appreciate and respect that.
So there was a case we work very closely with agencies.So a part of what our position is providing consultation similar to what if you were to have a question about blood work, you might call internal medicine or something.And so we have a really good report with quite a few agencies and there is an agency in South Florida that we routinely work with.
And they had a dog that was essentially skin and bones emaciated, one out of nine on the Purina scale, photo dermatitis with the feet ulcerating and quite a few different medical conditions.And so we provided guidance for refeeding syndrome.Talk them through what type of evidence collection to consider as far as like does the dog have parasites, what standard photos would you recommend taking or should you take as well as you know legal documentation of the condition of the animal treatments and diagnostics.
And so with that, this dog had this beautiful recovery.I wish I could put, I'll send it to you after that.She's gorgeous and she was actually highlighted for ASPCAI believe, last year because of her beautiful transformation, the life that she now lives.But through this collaborative effort in this work, we were able to support this agency with financial support as well, to be able to rehab her and get her from skin and bones, barely able to hold her head up.
She literally couldn't even walk into this robust Pitbull that is sleeping on couches and getting belly rubs and getting uploaded videos.She has her own social media account of belly rubs and dropping with her brother in the yard and it's just beautiful.Beautiful, you know, transformation of Khaleesi, her name's Khaleesi.
And then the other coolest part about this too is when we are working on suspected cruelty cases, we are specifically looking at one animal in a home.But there's the other components of the home life that can be going on.So there might be other animals and what are the condition of those animals?There might be children that are exposed to potential witnessing of crimes and the impact of that or they may also be neglected if an animal's neglected.
So there's something called the link that we talked about.So in this, when the investigators were working with Khaleesi's case, they uncovered that the owner also had three other dogs within the home that were also in poor condition, not as severe as Khaleesi, but they still require all three required immediate veterinary assistance.
And so if Khaleesi, who initially presented as a stray dog who was lingering in the neighborhood if it was just brushed off as a stray dog, this case could have gone nowhere and so easily.I've worked in shelter medicine for a while and it's so easy to be oh, there's no owner, just keep moving.
But the investigation on this team did a beautiful job of figuring out where she lived and then also further investigating the home to find these three other dogs that they saved.So that was a case of neglect versus, I suppose, willful cruelty.Even then, neglect is still still cruelty, but it's at least not like the other one that we discussed, yeah.
We termed that non accidental injury for willful cruelty.So Abby was a perfect example of blunt force trauma, you know, repeated beatings and that kind of thing.And then Khaleesi needed medical care and veterinary care and sustenance and a clean living environment and that wasn't provided.
So both are equally as serious as things to consider for potential case involvement.So just to give us a a broader idea or a more complete picture of what you do in your job.So obviously there's investigation and I like it.It kind of like normal veterinary medicine, like medicine you have symptoms or signs and then you you gather the evidence and then you figure out what is responsible for this.
It's just that in my life I'm looking for a pathogen or for a toxin or something like that, whereas you look for malice for people, for human caused things.So it's it's the same sort of thinking processes.It's just to slightly extrapolate it and as you say, because we feel like I immediately go, I don't have the skills for this, but the way you describe it, you just have to expand your thinking a little bit broader.
Yeah, absolutely.And we do, Absolutely.We are involved with investigation and the component of investigating that animal as evidence.So Khaleesi, she's super, super skinny.Does she have a tumor?Does she have EPI?Does she have reaching heartworms?Does she have intestinal parasites?
Or even for Abby, she's a young dog.So a differential is going to be like some type of metabolic disease or congenital bone abnormality.Maybe she has rickets, right?And so being able to rule in or rule out possible differentials which then assist law enforcement and getting more of a story.
So when they go do their job to investigate, they have more of a complete story of this didn't just happen overnight.There's no underlying etiology to explain why Khaleesi is so initiated.OK, so part of it so, so she Khaleesi ended up with you being treat investigated and treated as well.
So, so basically you're still doing standard vet work in addition to the other stuff that you do?Yeah.And So what that looks like is we also a little plug, we have aspcapro.org and on there under veterinary forensics we have something that we call one pagers.
And so these are quick reference guides that literally give the viewer key risk factors for caretakers for history for clinical exam findings for anal sexual abuse, one for.Non accidental injury, one for.Blood force trauma, one for dog finding, one for cock fighting.
We've got a whole little library over there that I highly, highly recommend because I think it provides people with comfort to OK, if I see three of these things on this list, I feel comfortable with moving forward and reporting.And here's how I respond to them.But you're absolutely right in documentation, our documentation is the same thing that you guys would do with lab work.
X-rays.I think the additional is the inclusion of physical exam fighting.So we very rarely will put WNL within normal limits or unremarkable or normal.It's the same thing that y'all do.It's just going to be more specific.So these court cases can take 2-3 years, right?
And so to be specific, I'll say musculoskeletal within normal limits, instead of saying within normal limits, I'll say it's symmetrical.No lameness on gross examination, joints are smooth on palpation, ambulating times 4, right?And that's the same thing as within normal limits.
And then so in addition to a little bit more detail in the medical record, we also take standard photo series, which is also we have our basic photo series for forensic examination on ASPCA Pro as well.I think I just discovered the downside of your job.
Even more paperwork, more detailed clinical records?No.And I'll be transparent.When I started this job, I trajectory from emergency.I knew I wanted to do veterinary forensics, I knew it.And so I want through externship up in New York, there's a partnership with between NYPD and ASPCA.
So all suspected cruelty cases, neglect or intentional injury or anything like that gets funneled through the ASPCA for forensic examination.And so through that I was an extern and I just fell in love.I was like, I love shelter medicine.I love emergency.This is what I love.And so I worked emergency.
I worked shelter mad and then I applied and was accepted here And so it's been quite the journey, but I didn't anticipate the volume of time dedicated behind the laptop.I probably spent 70% of my time writing reports or doing presentations, and then the other 30% is being on scene, like crime scene processing, physical forensic exams, necropsy, those kind of things.
But it's definitely not boring.No, not at all.It doesn't sound like it.See I I'm oblivious to this and I don't know if it's an Australian thing that we don't have the same systems.In fact if anybody's listening to this and can tell me Yep, you you have the same in Australia.Because I don't feel like we have such a well developed system.
We'd certainly have the RSPCA in that.But I I don't know that we have that forensic arm that you have maybe we do love to know but it so it's obviously a thing in the US like you could choose to become a forensic fed in America so that I can pick that as a career path.Yeah.Yeah.
And it's interestingly you say that 'cause we actually, so part of our center down here in Gainesville, FL is a teaching center.And so we actually had an Australian veterinarian from the RSPCA but all the way across side to our facility and she spent time with us and she was awesome and then she went on and did more shelter medicine things while she was stateside.
So I don't think we are the key focus of why she was here, but it was so cool to host her and hear about the Australian system and what they're doing over there, what you all are doing.And So what?What are we doing?I'm.I'm oblivious.I think it's a work in progress.She left with a lot of good ideas and support and I think we're due for an update.
I'll ping her shortly after this.And then of course like we have 64 countries, you listen, so it goes much wider, but one of our other big audiences will be the UK and I'd imagine they'd have similar systems in in place.But let's let's make it focused on the stuff that you specifically know and for our American listeners, how how much work is there?
Like if I decide I want to be a forensic vet, do you have the the only forensic vet position in the country so jobs full come back in 20 years when Liz is retired or or are there multiple jobs available within the field?So it's great that you asked that because I think we talked briefly about the spectrum of involvement with forensics and I think that there's also a spectrum of involvement for employment.
So I am one individual on a team of eight employed by the ASPCA as we solely do veterinary forensic medicine.There's quite a few people stateside who do have their own LLCS and they work contract wise and they have programs like that.
A few universities are now having veterinary forensic pathology rotations and incorporating it into their curriculum and their positions.What I would say is most common is shelter medicine.Vets are going to see the cruelty case.They come in and it's just assumed that you're a shelter vet.
So you're going to do high volume spay neuter population health and then you're also going to deal with these animal cruelty investigations.So I'd say that's the most.But there are also areas where there is no forensic veterinarian or veterinarian in general that they routinely work with animal control or law enforcement.And so that's where I would strongly encourage any of your listeners, if they're interested, don't hesitate to reach out and reach across the aisle to those animal control or law enforcement agencies because they probably don't even know that you're a resource.
And so if you're interested in building a, you know, a rapport with them to have that collaboration as I understand what I'm doing, I would love to fine tune this with you.It can become a really, really beautiful program that can have enormous ripple effect.
It's actually a a good opportunity if you are in a an area or a country where there's not a a system like this at place.You can actually make yourself an extra job by putting your hand up basically and saying I want to do this, I want to get better at this and contacting your local whatever RSPCA or and say pay me, I'll give me a call over this case and I will work it up for you.
How do you get better at this list?Did you study further or or you said somebody went to you guys in Gainesville to learn more like is, are there specific courses that you can do or is it a specialist level or specialist special interest or how does it work?So there is no specialty.
This is really an open field for those that are interested.Really it's a strong area of interest as opposed to a specialty.And so some resources that I would look for or be curious about would be the International and Veterinary Forensic Symposium.So IVFSA, it's an international organization that has yearly conferences with CE available to veterinarians and brings together stakeholders from Taiwan, from Puerto Rico like international to let's all gather and share what updated information we have or interesting cases we've had, which is a really, really great opportunity.
There's also Florida International University, which is partnered with the ASPCA for an online Master's program.There is a master's program through the University of Florida, which I've also completed.And then there are quite a few.And if any of your listeners are interested as well, we provide or the ASPCA provides free veterinary forensic training as well remotely.
So we could always figure out a zoom time.If you've got your local Veterinary Medical Association chapter and you've got 20 people that are curious, we'll make that happen.OK.And then there's those resources that you said before, which sounds super useful.And I don't think, and I'm sure you guys work under a certain legal system and rules and regulations around cruelty and neglect.
But it sounds like that will be universal.And whatever the local laws are, we're talking about the veterinary side of it.If you suspect this, go to those resources and there's your basic guide.Yeah.I'd be curious to look more into and hear more from the legal teams in your area specifically.
But if we're seeing multiple red flags or indices of suspicion.And so if I see a dog that has bilateral rib fractures, glial hemorrhage, hemoabdomen, those are pretty, they raise my indices of suspicion quite highly.And so if I'm puzzle piercing all that together, whether an animal is abused here versus over in Australia, I think identifying it and putting a label on it as non accidental injury on that animal would apply no matter where you are.
Now if that falls under like here we have felony versus misdemeanor grading of that church, that's up to the judicial law system that you guys have.That's not up to us.He's sobering.I think a big stumbling block and it's exactly what you said before working and as soon as you say him abdomen and those sort of markers the red flags.
See you're oblivious if you don't think about it because we have you do have cases where you go oh that's weird.I find quite.You know you get a he a hem abdomen and it's has rat bait on board or it's got a splenic those are easy and every now and again you get a case where you go that's really odd.I don't get that How you know it hasn't been run over by car.
There's no history.Why are you?Why is this?Absolutely.And there's even publications and it's not well known, right, Unless you're looking in our field, it's not commonly taught in veterinary schools, but there are literally publications that distribute and assess motor vehicle accident versus non accidental injury of an animal.
So the distribution of what we're looking at is completely different.But if we don't know, then how are we ever going to question it?And it's definitely a learning curve right there.Yeah.And I think the stumbling block even when you are suspicious.So a there's the one thing that's flicked for me right now in this conversation is when it doesn't fit, don't just let it go as Oh well that's weird.
Let's move on.Think about it.Could this be something basically be a little bit suspicious because I tend to believe the best in people and believe the stories they tell you but sometimes you have to think about it And the next step then is and I think that's where it gets hard and why we often will not do anything about it is AI don't know what's my first step.
If I'm suspicious, who do I call?What's my first port of call?So let's make this practical.First of all, in the US, what would be my first port of call if I have a suspicion?Who did that dread call?Was it?Do you guys?Or where do you go?They would call.The National Link Coalition has an interactive website that it says where can I report?
It's insane, But they've collected and compiled all US counties because it varies.Some people call Sheriff's Office or the Police Department, Other people call animal control.Other people call it rape.There's no organization necessarily to it.There's not a standard blanket of how do we report?
And so the National League Coalition has compiled the list.No matter where you are in the US, if you go to their website and you go to the county that you're in, it will provide you exactly who to contact.And that is one of the barriers for reporting, because where else do we know that information from?So will you send me links and stuff, Links and phone numbers that I can put in show notes?
Absolutely.And if anybody in Australia or the UK or anywhere else is listening to this and going, oh I I know the answer to that question, please shoot me an e-mail and I will put it in the show notes as well.We can actually create a resource list somewhere because it that that's often I don't have on a busy emergency shift.
I don't have an hour to sit and Google who the hell do iPhone to follow up on this?And I'll ask around too on my end.I'll ask around.I'll ask my RSPCA bad friend.OK, fantastic.So that's one stumbling block.The other thing is the whole client confidentiality thing versus a duty of care.
Because there's a part of it.I go, yeah, you want to get people in trouble or put them, you know, be suspicious of somebody.And then it turns out that it was completely innocent.And then I I feel embarrassed because I've accused you of something that.But I I think I can answer my own question or reservations there by saying when I made my promises today, I took my degree.
That was something I promised that I would do.It is, I'll take care of animal health.So, you know, if you step on a few toes occasionally, how do you feel about that?Or I suspect how you feel about it, but how do you get around that mental thing about privacy and all those sort of things?So it's a little bit different here stateside because some states mandate it.
So I love those states because it's just, it's literally the equivalent of if you go back 40 years or so mandate of reporting of child abuse, it's facing the very same trajectory or I don't want to say the trajectory, but the same battles against reporting mandated child abuse, which is now standard is what the veterinary field is facing.
And the rebuttal to that is it's their property.They can do what they want at least to your state side, but you still cannot beat your property.You know, if the laws still apply, even if that's even if that comes up.I think that the hardest part about this is that there's no line in the sand, right.There's no clear, it's a Gray area.
And so when we're in mandated states, it's very easy to be like I am legally mandated to report this.But for people that are in non mandated states, they may be facing exact same questions.And I really think having the backing of knowledge with our one pagers can be helpful.
You are always welcome to reach out to have a discussion like reach out to somebody in the field who is doing the work.Our team is available for that as well.And I think having that support network of figuring out where you fall on the spectrum, some of these things, what I would report, you might think is client education.
And that's not wrong.You know, this really comes down to kind of your moral ethics and your moral compass.They'll say more than ethics and where you fall with that.So that's kind of my answer.I wish I could give you, like always report this, but there's a lot that goes into it and there's a lot of consideration, staff safety.
Is it safe to do that?Do you, you know, can you anonymously report?But as long at least on our side of the ocean, as long as you're reporting in good faith, there should be no challenges to that.As of right now, there is no state that will not allow veterinarians to report.
The only thing for us to think about is civil liability for somebody to sue for defamation.So that is, if you if I say I think you beat your dog and then it turns out I'm wrong and then they count countersued to say, well people heard about this case and now people think I'm an animal abuser and I wasn't.
Is that a a consideration?That could be.And again, I find the most strength in what I do from having a arsenal of publications behind me.So when I report something, not that I report when I am testifying for something, I find that I'm very calm about it because I'm testifying to science, which is my background, which is my training.
I'm able to weed out this or that.And so we might have a difference of opinion, but I'm not going to be like you had a broken dog toenail and you let this dog suffer for a week and sit down and report it, right?There's like obvious inflection of of what we know and what we're understanding.
When you do report, and I don't know if there is a a definite answer to this, but let's take it back to the Abbey case and that emergency bed.Do you tell the owner that, look, I'm suspicious of abuse here, I'm going to report this just to make you aware or do you just do it and not as you say, either anonymously or just call the authorities and they deal with it?
Like what's?What's the recommendation?That's a really good question.I should ask Abbey's Veterinary End.I've never asked him that, but that's a really good question.The diversity of what we work with veterinarians for is some don't feel comfortable, so they'll report it after the owner has left the building or as the owner is checking out or something like that.
I've had other veterinarians usually in mandated states who tell me that they're say legally I'm obligated because of my license, to report this because I'm concerned about Abby and the safety of her home or whatever it is, right?And then also a little bit of a sidebar concerned about safety, right, 'cause you need to maintain your staff safety.
So if somebody is irate in your vet clinic and they're that irate in front of you and you suspect that they beat the snot out of their dog or their cat, you're probably not going to want to be like.So sit down with me, Charlie.Let's talk about that.Let's.How do we feel?Let's talk about your violent tendencies at 2:00 in the morning when we're alone in the hospital.
I I would probably.I think the coward and me, because it's a high conflict situation, I'd probably want to say do it not when they're in the building with you so they die.And that also gives you time, like if I were to report something that would give me time to digest what and how I want to say it or, you know, versus this knee jerk reaction, they're waiting in the room and you're trying to hurry or you know.
And again, if you have that, if the veterinarian has that relationship because they've reached out proactively with that animal control officer or law enforcement officer, then there should also be more of a communication open line there that they're trusting what you're saying versus you trying to like convince quote UN quote them that what you're saying is serious.
So you started saying a couple of things.What I want to get to is guidance for GP vets in practice or emergency vets, whoever.When you have either a just a suspicion and you need to report it in a way that's kind of work as evidence.
Or when somebody comes in and asks and says look Lee, like your chicken scenario or there's my animal, it has these wounds.I'm worried that this and this happened or even the name.I think the name is dog attack my dog.Can we basically, how do we get good enough to make something useful as evidence to record?
What do we look for, how do we report record it, report it?Any tips that can help us in that regard?Yeah, so even with cases that may not go anywhere.So say you're looking at a kitten and it's got something suspicious, but it's not enough for you to feel gung ho or all in about reporting.
If you take the extra 3-4 minutes to make a very thorough documentation of the animal's history, what your physical exam findings are, those kind of things.And then the next time this cat comes in, maybe it has new injuries or different injuries.It can also help to show a pattern of injury to an animal.
So it can feel overwhelming.Like at certain clinics here, there's literally 15 minutes slots for the vet to visit, and that includes assessment high by drawing blood, everything, right?And so I understand that it can be very hard.I'm not necessarily suggesting this for every single client that comes in the door, but for the ones where you get an uneasy feeling or that hesitation that I heard from you in the beginning of like, oh, how do I handle this right?
Maybe take a few extra seconds or minutes to be able to document, you know, that physical exam findings what is normal and what is abnormal.But if you're concerned about blunt force trauma, I'd look at ALT and CK Those are very specific for a liver injury and muscle injury, which are very commonly associated with blunt force trauma.
Looking at those X-rays.So Fluffy was just hit by a car, but you don't think that would you be comfortable with chest X-rays.We need to make sure, you know there could be some lung bruising we they can decompensate quickly.Are you OK if we snap X-rays of the chest and maybe there you see that there's rib fractures and you're like, OK, now we're ready to go bilaterally there's rib fractures, we should report this.
So really, whatever, like what for you would make you feel comfortable with reporting or moving forward with the case?You mean if I have suspicion of cruelty of?Because it's hard to come up with advice, because there's so many different reasons to not want to get involved.
Yeah, I I think it would just be unexplained trauma.It's to be honest with you, I'm so glad we're having this conversation because I've never really thought about it.And I and if I think back to the 25 years of my career, there would have definitely been cases that would have been at least worth exploring.
I'm lucky.Maybe I'm lucky of where I've worked that I've not seen a lot.Like I I can't.People say, oh, you must see some terrible things And I go, no, not really.I I think people are generally great because they bring in their sick animals and pay me to make them better.So not a heap, but I I think it would be unexplained trauma.
OK, why we got a broken bone.You told me that it just jumped off the obviously that's gonna happen, but it just jumped off the bed and now it's got a smashed femur.Doesn't makes any sense.There you go.That those are like the classics is he fell down the stairs.It's this.
It's literally copy paste of child abuse.He fell off the bunk bed.He fell off the bed.He fell down the stairs.A bookcase fell on him.A door fell on him.There's so many, you know, like things when you stop and think you're like, that doesn't even make sense for the degree of injury that we're looking at, Yeah.
Great.And then the, I will just underline again the stuff you said earlier with the clinical record keeping the stuff that we whinge about.But it's interesting that you say don't just try it with no, no with no lesions or within normal limits describe it, be very thorough with this history to say well eyes are normal, I can't see this.
So I think that's a useful thing to remember when we when we describe these cases because often probably the most common cases that I face where you need to provide evidence would be often dog attacks a dog on dog and somebody's going to take the person that the that they found it to be the person whose dog attacks their dog at the beach.
They need evidence And so we'll do that and even just that's useful to to be very very specific with what you find and what you describe.Do you have to go to court often and go sit in court and is that as scary as it sounds because that scares the crap out of me and I think most people like it's sort of the I do not want to be dragged into a court case to provide evidence because AI don't feel qualified.
I'm scared I'm going to a say the wrong thing and mess it up or be get myself into trouble for providing incorrect information and then yeah, is it bad.In our short dialogue, you have come across as very poised and educated and you know what you're talking about and you strike me as being transparent.
If there's anything that you misspoke on and it is the exact same thing as when you're in court.So how I I like previously mentioned that I'm speaking about scientific fact.So I go in knowing that scientifically this is where I stand based on blood work, based on X-rays, based on publications.
And another veterinarian might have a different opinion and that's OK.It doesn't mean I'm wrong, right?It's just a different opinion that's never happened, but it can happen.And so similarly, something else that kind of calms my nerves is we talk to the judge and the jury the same way that I anticipate you would talk to your clients.
So it's literally there is an educational component, right?And so it's not really that scary because the same way I would describe emaciation would be if a client came to me and said what's going on with my dog, right.And that's literally our purpose in court is to educate.And I've been on the stand and made stupid comments before, I once said on my very first court appearance with the ASPCA, my friend got me a plaque that says this is how embarrassing it was, is they asked about a dog being emaciated and if that could have happened overnight and I said dogs don't.
I was like talking out loud and I shouldn't have been like, I've learned a lot since then.OK, that was six years ago.I was like, dogs don't get liposuction because there's no logical reason that a dog would lose like adequate body condition to emaciated the next day.And so there's definitely mistakes that are made and we learn genuinely.
Well, that's not that's not a mistake, it's a fact.It was maybe a bit so sarcastic with him.I was just thinking I was probably like is there anything else they don't get like was such you know it's just being I wasn't being Liz.So mistakes do happen on in the stand and that's OK.
I've misstated something before when a dog had this and it's this and I've said excuse me, you know it's been after a break and I'll say excuse me, I misspoke.May clarified a statement and that's OK too.So it's not really as scary as what it it feels like.And again, preparation really, really helps.
So meaning with your prosecutor, whoever's pursuing that case and going through the case with them can really, really be beneficial.Then you mentioned at the beginning and we touched on it, but the emotional component of this work.So now I'm back to somebody who's listening to this, who goes, actually, I want to go all in on this.
This sounds amazing.I want this as a job.But then you literally get thrown all the worst of the worst cases.How do you who's Liz?Not how does one, how how do you protect yourself from it?Becoming traumatizing or at probably at worst, at best making you really cynical about human beings.
That's fair.That's a very good question.And going on that we've had veterinarians that think they want to apply for a position, They come down for a week and they're like, oh, this is not it.And I respect that more than anything.This work line of work is not for everyone.Just like I could never be a cardiologist.
It's just not in the cards for me.And so I think appreciating and respecting bodily boundaries of when you're maxed out, when you need a break is very important.Our team is really good about mental health support and just supporting each other and taking breaks when we need them.I cannot stand when my mom sends me videos and she's like somebody's beating an elephant, do something.
Oh my God.Your team needs to go now.And I'm like, mom, she knows now, but what country is it in?Because it might be legal.How long ago was this video?So I absolutely, part of my mental health is I do not engage with animal cruelty that I'm not involved in because I'm doing something about it that provides some type of relief to me.
You know, I'm, I'm working on it to make something come from it or not.I've also had cases that we work on that don't go anywhere either.But I think the biggest thing too is just that balance of mental health days.So if I need a day off after a particularly challenging Kate, like Abby's case was a great example.
I definitely took a day or two off to just go wander in the woods with my dogs, work them, train them because that's my outlet, you know, gym time, going to the gym and stuff.So really, and I'm not the best at it, but our team, my team is really, really good about reminding you like, hey, like my boss as well, we just came back from a long case and she's like, why don't you take tomorrow off?
I'm like, that's a good idea.Let's do that.So collectively having that support system I think is really beneficial in addition to these internal monitors that I have.Love that so much.I love that first thing that you said with the the stuff your mom sends you that you actively disengage when you're you're engaged when you're doing it and then you're actively disengaged.
Understanding that I can't save everything, I can't save everyone, I can't save everything.I can do what I can do to and this this goes back to normal vet science stuff as well.You have finite time and resources.That is time money and emotional resources.
So kind of giving yourself permission to let go of the stuff that's not under your direct influence because otherwise it it gets overwhelming.It can feel like, well, I the world's conscious, I can't fix it.And then you burn out.Then you can't do anymore.Well, and I'm sure some of your listeners feel the same with me.
When there are things that I can't do.It hurts me like a genuinely guy get this feeling in my chest where I'm like oh, that shouldn't be happening or this should be happening Or you know, we collectively as the veterinarian can't save everything and we can't be everywhere at once.
And I think that that is a a very good point.I'd read a a line which book was it.It's a book on Stoicism and basically it the book is summarized with this one line that I've that I try to use as a bit of a life motto but specifically a work motto and he said I think it's dry on holiday.
Do what you can with what you have, where you are and that is all that you can do.And and then the second thing you mentioned is just that culture of support of a being vulnerable enough to say that was hard, I'm sorry, I think I need a break.
And but then your boss actually preempting that before you get to that breaking point saying that, I think that was harder than you realize.I think you need a day off or some acknowledgement of that was tough.And I think that's often missing in practice because you'll have a shift where you just get slammed, slammed, slammed and three euthanasias.
And this individually they're not going to break the camel's back.But cumulatively, somebody else talked about the the little multiple holes you spoke in the bucket and before you know it, the bucket is empty and having a team around you that can say, well, I, I think your bucket's leaking, go home and hatch the bucket.
Absolutely.Oh man, I was one of my questions that I said to you was why do this work.But I think we've answered that just in describing what you do.It's it's a very clear why it sounds like such a a fulfilling job because you do important work.
But back to the question I asked about the cynicism is that does it just fall?And you don't seem like a miserable, cynical person.Do you get some cynicism?Do you Do you become hard on the world because the world is hard on the animals that come to your door?I'll tell you there was one case that sat with me, that a girlfriend was dating a guy for a year and they decided to move in together.
And then she had a cat.She went to work and then she came home and the cat is missing and her boyfriend went with her all throughout the town, posting lost cat signs all throughout Facebook, all this stuff.And then a girlfriend of hers said did you check the shed?
And as soon as she said that the suspect's girlfriend, who we had just moved in with her stomach dropped and she grabbed him by the ear, dragged him out to the shed because only he had a key to the shed.And so he opens the shed and her cat is beaten and sitting right there.And so how this all came about was a neighbor called because they were fighting in the front yard.
She was beating the snot out of him.And so they arrived for domestic violence because she was beating him.And then they separated them and figured out what was going on.And now there's a case associated with it.And so that case really sat with me in the respect of being cognizant of who I let into my life.
That's an example of like, you know, you think you know.So she dated him for a whole year.She was with him for a whole year.So there are definitely cases that come in and I'm cognizant that not every partner out there is going to murder my dogs.But that is something that there is a component that's kind of tweaks the personality just subtly to keep that in mind.
But I also routinely go to therapy that helps keep me grounded.I I think that if we lose some of the humor and what our team does also keeps us grounded and bonds us in that dark.Like, I'm sure your listeners are like, Oh yeah, Oh yeah, when it's tough, that's when the jokes come out, you know?
And so I I think that's to some degree a normal coping mechanism, as long as it's not too dark.Yeah.All right.So it's cognizance of the dark side of human nature.Is that you?I think we all know it.Maybe it's good to occasionally be reminded that it does exist, but I love that it hasn't affected you in horrible ways that you can still smile when you go to work.
Liz, is there anything else around your job that I haven't asked or or about this field, anything else that you'd like to get out to the world about it before we move to a more personal questions?The the the wrap up questions have I covered it?If you're absolutely at all interested in veterinary forensics, anybody can do it, like any veterinarian can do it.
And there's so many different ways that you can get involved.And there is so much variation in the involvement that you can be, whether you're all in and want to start your own LLC or your own proposition to a shelter or something like that versus a general practice who just has a working relationship with a local law enforcement or an agent investigating agency.
And it's the same thing that you're doing in the day-to-day.I think the difference is just the thoroughness, the documentation and rolling out kind of thing.And so that's all I've got.Yeah, I feel like we all kind of do it already.We might either just not be aware that we're doing it or we're really bad at it and we can get a bit better at it by, I think, just switching on and realizing, hey, this is actually what I'm doing right now with this case.
I'm being a forensic vet.Let me think about what Liz said and apply those things.Yeah.And there's also great publications.So there's a a new publication, I think 2022 from Doctor Rachel Tirudes, The Minimum Clinical Standards for Forensic Examination.
And I I'll send that to you as well.And it literally talks you through step by step.It's the first publication for a standard for how to do a forensic exam and how to write a report.So that could be a very, very nice back pocket thing.Tutorial.Step by step, here's what you do.Yeah.I think my personal take away for clinical work is be aware of it and then create a protocol because exactly as you say, it's dad.
Well, I don't know what to do next, so I can't be bothered.I have a system go oh, I can't remember what did we say at the meeting when I suspect the case.What should I do?Who do I call?Where do I take it?And actually having that documented somewhere saying hit the the abuse protocol and then run with it.
Absolutely.And it might be scary in the beginning, just like your space were, but now you have a space protocol and you don't even have to refer to it.So the same thing first one might be scary, but you you'll get the hang of it.You can't get away without answering the the standard questions, the routine questions.
And we'll start with podcasts.Are you a podcast listener?I am.Yeah, what are you listening to at the moment?I We travel a lot for work, so I'm always playing like I have 3.It's really This American Life is just beautiful.I just download and go.
It's just storytelling.I can zone out and think about happy things.The Mont Radio is also really, really cool.It's a story slam, so similar to This American Life.A little bit shorter usually, though.And then I recently came on to Reveal because they mentioned something in Moth Rate, one of the other podcasts I listen to.
I love Serial Investigations.So Serial is another great podcast.But so I guess it's investigative journalism.Kind of gels with how your brain works, I suspect.See.I didn't even think about that I should pay you instead of my therapist.We could do a monthly podcast session.
The pass along question where I asked a previous guest for a question for my next guest, not knowing who they're going to be.So the guest in question was very much involved in climate change and NET 0 practices.So it's a very biased question.So I don't know that you will have an answer, but he asked what can you do in your sphere of influence, particularly in your workplace, to encourage and support management to develop and enhance their sustainability and emissions reduction ambitions?
That's a mouthful.Thank you, Jeremy.Well, Jeremy, instead of driving my Hummer, I now drive my truck.No, just kidding.I drive a Honda Civic.So I think the biggest opportunity here is to just share.COVID really changed things for our organization to see another way that the operation can run.
So if like before I would travel to veterinary schools and provide lectures for veterinary schools or for presentations, whereas I don't need to be there in person.It's great to be there in person, but every single one, How much are we flying and the expense and the emissions that are from travel just for one lecture that's an hour long versus being able to do it over zoom and figure out a way to make that work.
And that brings together, you know, we have a national organization, so we've got people in New York, LA, Miami and rather than flying them all into one central place for a meeting, we can do that over zoom now.So I really, really think COVID encouraged us to have an opportunity to see our organization in a different light in a way to see that we can cut down on travel with emissions with ZOOM access or a video conferencing, which I don't think that would have maybe eventually it would happen, but I I think COVID really, really kicked a lot of people in that direction unintentionally.
Cool, good answer.Question for my next guest, please.OK, If you as an adult were talking to the 8 year old you, what would you say?8 year old.I've heard that question answered for like 20 year old. 8 year old's really interesting.
Yeah, when you're just getting started, self identity playtime, what would your answer be?No.Yeah I'll have to Mull it over.I I don't have a a quick off the.I'm trying to just remember 8 year old me.Was I what was I doing What about answer me Probably don't limit yourself by what you think your natural abilities or lack of ability.
Hard work hard work will get you places where you think I might not be good at this thing but you could if you really wanted to.You probably can get good at it.That's what I'm learning in the last 10 years.I love that.So cool.Right.And then our last question, Liz, you have the opportunity to speak to all of the new grads of 2024 and you have a couple of minutes to give them one little bit of advice that can be career advice or personal.
What do you say to them?I think coming out of that school, at least I'll speak from my personal experience.I really struggled academically.I was never a really good test taker and I'm much more of a hands on learner.So with the density of books and curriculum in vet school, I had a hard time.
And so with that in mind, I would encourage, like little me would be so proud of where I am now because I'd never in my wildest dreams would imagine that I am doing the job that I dreamt about as a child, watching animal cops on Animal Planet, right?
Like those.That's the So I would strongly encourage that your academics don't define who you are.But nobody has ever said what did you score in Histology?Did you get an A or C right, Nobody care.It's it's important that you take away the key pieces of that material net curriculum, but the actual grades and stuff, just shake it off.
Just let it go.And this is your time to really build off of your own identity and you're both at your new interpersonal relationships.And really, it's a new opportunity to see that if you are challenged in any capacity, doors are going to be open and you will be just fine, even if it feels like gimmick.
I didn't have a job lined up my 4th year until two weeks before graduation.Terrifying.It felt terrifying, but it all worked out just fine.So it gets better.Hang in there and I'm sure whatever you're doing, you're doing great.Yeah, I don't know if you agree, but I I've noticed an almost complete disconnect between academic performance at vet school and career.
I don't know, I just want to say success.It's a bloated word, but happy, fulfilled veterinary careers 00 Well, not zero.Let's say they're really smart kids in my class or other people I know, they will often do really well in if they go down an academic route.
So becoming a lecturer or teacher or something like that.But beyond that, nothing.Like I know so many fantastic specialists who are at vet school with me who scraped by or fail the year and then scraped by and then you go, oh, I don't know what kind of vet you're going to be.
And they fantastic vets because they focus, Because once they're once it's real life and not textbook anymore.Things click into place and you find your passion and you find your path.And if if you're a clinician listening to this, keep that in mind because there are things that stick with your students that you're working with that you might think are casual and it hits them low.
Like I was told that I should pick a different career that really, really hit me low.And, you know, it's, you know, well, that test wasn't that hard.You should have done better.You know, it's like things that seem common sense to us just either take a moment to choose kindness or have a dialogue to maybe peel it out on what's going on with them or something like that.
But some things that we say might seem just casual to us, that they can hit low even if they're unintentionally doing so.Yeah, very good point.Can I just say I love that you were the kid who watched Edible Cops and wanted to be that and became that?There's so few people who think they know what they want to do, even very specific, and actually end up doing that because every your life goes this way or that way.
But I love that you took it and ran with it, and you do it and looks like you're loving it.Thank you very much.Liz, thank you so much for your time.That was insightful and delightful.Surprisingly, considering the heaviness of the topic.I I really enjoyed that and I think it will hopefully let some light bulbs go off for a lot of people listening to this.
And then also thank you for doing what you do.It's a it is such as I said I at the beginning I was like why why do you want to do vet forensics.I I thought it might be really boring but it's really critical work.It is speaking for those who can't speak for themselves and defending them.So thank you.Well, thank you so much for your time.
It's been a pleasure and I absolutely loved our dialogue and I'm glad that you came along for the ride of humour, to drama, to supporting other.You know, we went on a roller coaster, so I hope everybody listening takes some self-care after this.You know that it's going to be a wild ride when you start with chicken and sexual.
There's so many more stories.Before you disappear, I wanted to tell you about our new weekly newsletter.I speak to so many interesting people and learn so many new things while making the podcast, so I thought I'd go ahead a little summary each week of the stuff that stood out for me.
We call it the Red Vault 321 and it consists of firstly 3 clinical pearls.These are three things that I've taken away from the clinical podcast episode.My light bulb moments, the penny dropping, any new facts, and the stuff that we need to know to make all the other pieces fit.
Then two other things This could be quotes, links, movies, books, a podcast, highlight, anything that I've come across outside of clinical vetting that I think you might find interesting.And then one thing to think about.I'll share something that I'm pondering, usually based on something that I've read or heard, but sometimes it'll be just my own musings or ants.
The goal of this format is that you can spend just two to three minutes on the clinical stuff and move right along if that's all that you're after.But if you're looking for content that is more nourishing than cat videos or doom scrolling, then our two other things should send you in the right direction.And then something extra for when you feel like a slightly longer read if you'd like to.

Dr Elizabeth Pearlman