Feb. 11, 2024

#113: "Humans Aren’t Salmon": The Four Pillars of Energetic Leadership. With Dr Marie Holowaychuk and Josh Vaisman.

#113:

In this episode, the conversation centres on fostering a culture of wellness and well-being in veterinary practices, particularly in the wake of the challenges brought about by COVID-19. The discussion highlights the evolution of leadership in veterinary medicine, moving from a "grin and bear it" mentality to prioritising the psychological health and safety of teams. Key topics include addressing chronic burnout, empowering staff, implementing sustainable work practices, and navigating the complexities of leadership in growing teams. Practical strategies such as embodying personal well-being, empowering autonomy, creating psychological safety, and intentionally shaping workplace culture are shared. The guests underscore the importance of clear communication, measurable actions, and collaborative efforts to build thriving veterinary teams and sustainable business practices.

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Season 1

"The what and the why of leadership is not up for debate anymore. We know what leadership is supposed to be, and we know what workplaces are supposed to be so that the human beings in it can actually get the work done. It's the how that we're catching up on."

- Josh Vaisman

"I'm excited. I feel like we're at, or past, a tipping point in the profession. People really, really want to shift towards better places. It's just about finding the ways to get us there."

- Dr Marie Holowaychuck

Two quotes, one message: veterinary leadership teams around the world know what needs to be done.  We just need a little help to get us there. 

In this episode my guests Dr Marie Holowaychuck and Josh Vaisman provide some of that help with this conversation about the four pillars that the better workplace you want to create needs to be built on. 

Dr Marie Holowaychuck is a specialist in small animal emergency and critical care. She’s also a certified coach, yoga and meditation teacher, facilitator, and keynote speaker who dedicates her time and energy to sharing evidence-based information regarding mental health and wellbeing. She has more than 20 years of veterinary practice experience in academic, private, and corporate settings. She’s led workshops and lectures and delivered keynotes to a range of audiences in Canada, the USA, and worldwide.

Josh Vaisman is a Workplace Culture Consultant, Keynote Speaker, Positive Leadership Advocate and the author of "Lead to Thrive: The Science of Crafting a Positive Veterinary Culture".  He holds certificates in areas such as Positive Psychology, Workplace Culture, and Building Effective Teams, and has a Masters level education in Applied Positive Psychology & Coaching Psychology. He co-founded Flourish Veterinary Consulting LLC to bring the knowledge he's obtained to life.

This episode was recorded live at IVECCS 2023. Use discount code VetVault2023 for a 35% discount when you become a VECCS member before May 2024, and join us at IVECCS 2024!

 

Topic list:

05:06 - The Impact of Culture on Well-being
05:31 - The Four Pillars of Energetic Leadership
06:10 - The Challenges of Veterinary Leadership
07:05 - The Types of Clients Seeking Help
08:04 - The Most Challenging Aspects Post-COVID
10:34 - The Importance of Personal Well-being for Leaders
13:35 - Empowering Teams for Personal Well-being
18:16 - Practical Ways to Empower Team Members
20:22 - The Challenges of Rapid Growth and Team Expansion
24:37 - Addressing Psychological Health and Safety
27:08 - The Resistance to New Workplace Norms
29:12 - The Importance of Psychological Safety
32:19 - Cultural Architecture and Unintended Consequences
35:28 - The Importance of Clarity in Leadership
38:45 - Key Takeaways from the IVECCS Session

 

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Four Pillars of Leadership for Veterinary Practices

The episode describes four pillars of leadership for veterinary practices that foster a culture of well-being. The pillars came out of a workshop on leadership and were discussed by three veterinary professionals: two business owners specialising in veterinary workplace culture and one leadership team member from a veterinary practice.
Here are the four pillars and some key takeaways from the conversation regarding them:

Pillar 1: Make Your Personal Wellbeing a Priority

  • Leaders who embody well-being have teams that are more likely to do the same.
  • When leaders prioritise self-care, they give their team members permission to do the same. For example, going for a walk during lunch or leaving work on time shows the team that these actions are acceptable and encouraged.
  • Leaders who are not taking care of themselves are not as effective. This is because when we are not taking care of ourselves, we are more likely to be impatient, disengaged, and unhappy.

Pillar 2: Empower Your Team

  • Leaders need to empower their team members to take care of their own well-being. This can be done by giving team members autonomy, a sense of control over their work, and choices regarding how they care for themselves.
  • Well-being needs to be an expectation and not just lip service. Leaders should encourage and support team members' well-being efforts.
  • Empowerment can be measured through actions, policies, and procedures. Leaders need to consider the elements of empowerment, measure them, and create an action plan to ensure that they are happening.
  • Leaders should consider the unintended consequences of norms and expectations. For example, a practice that values "helping each other" might inadvertently create a culture where team members feel they can never say no to requests for help, even if they are already overwhelmed.

Pillar 3: Create Psychological Health and Safety in the Workplace

    • Psychological health and safety is more than just feeling safe to speak up. It also includes:Reasonable workloads.
    • Protection from psychological harm.
    • A culture of civility and respect.
  • Leadership plays a key role in creating psychological health and safety. Leaders need to hold themselves and their team members accountable for creating a safe and respectful workplace.
  • Practices should have policies and procedures in place to protect team members from physical and psychological harm. Examples include ergonomic workstations, lift tables, and policies around handling fractious animals.

Pillar 4: Cultural Architecture

  • Leaders need to be aware of the unintended consequences of the norms and values they hold. They should take the time to define these norms and values in a way that is measurable, tangible, and behavioural.
  • Leaders should consider how their actions and words contribute to the practice culture. They need to be mindful of the messages they are sending to their team.
  • Everyone in the practice contributes to the culture. It is not just the responsibility of leadership to create a positive and healthy culture.
The episode also emphasises that:
  • "Being clear is kind." Open and honest communication is essential for creating a healthy workplace culture.
  • Leaders need to be willing to change and adapt. They need to be open to feedback and willing to take ownership of their role in creating a positive workplace culture.
These four pillars provide a framework for creating a veterinary practice culture that supports the well-being of the entire team, from leadership to individual team members. Leaders who prioritise these pillars can create a more positive, productive, and sustainable workplace.

Practical Strategies for Managing Growth in Veterinary Practices

The episode discuss practical strategies for managing growth in veterinary practices, particularly in the context of the four pillars of leadership:
  • Acknowledge that growth presents unique challenges. One of the speakers, Ellie, who is part of a veterinary practice leadership team, highlights the challenges her practice faced during a period of rapid growth. These challenges included training new staff, developing protocols and policies for a larger team, and maintaining role clarity as the team expanded. Another speaker, Josh, notes that a client of his, whose practice grew from under 10 to nearly 100 employees, expressed missing the close-knit feeling of a smaller team.
  • Focus on team well-being despite increased demands. Ellie emphasises that even during periods of rapid growth, it's crucial to prioritise the well-being of the team. She describes how her practice "pulled together" during the challenging growth phase but acknowledges the importance of "stopping and breathing again" to refocus on the team's well-being. This aligns with the first pillar of leadership, which emphasises prioritising personal well-being to create a culture where the team feels empowered to do the same.
  • Develop clear policies, protocols and role clarity. Ellie points out that as her team grew, they needed to implement clear protocols, policies, and induction and training programmes to ensure that everyone understood their roles and had a clear path for development. This strategy is particularly relevant to the second pillar of leadership, empowerment. Clear expectations and well-defined roles empower team members to take ownership of their work and contribute to the practice's success.
  • Delegate responsibility and empower team members. As the practice grows, leaders need to delegate responsibility and empower team members to take on more leadership roles. This helps to distribute the workload and allows leaders to focus on strategic initiatives. This relates to the concept of scaling leadership by empowering others to cultivate strong relationships within the team.
  • Maintain open communication and address challenges directly. Ellie highlights the importance of having a supportive leader who encourages her to prioritise her well-being and take breaks, even when she feels pressured to work extra hours. This open communication and accountability create a psychologically safe environment where team members feel comfortable raising concerns and seeking support.
  • Foster a culture of accountability and support. The sources emphasise that a healthy practice culture, where everyone feels accountable for their actions and supported by their colleagues, is essential for managing growth effectively. The "above the line, below the line" concept, mentioned by Ellie, is a practical tool for promoting self-regulation and accountability within the team. Openly discussing where actions and behaviours fall on this spectrum helps maintain a positive and respectful work environment.
The episode suggests that by implementing these practical strategies and adhering to the four pillars of leadership, veterinary practices can successfully manage growth while maintaining a positive and supportive workplace culture.

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So 2020 happened.Things went a bit nuts, but we thought it would be temporary.Just a glitch.Then 2021 happened.It wasn't temporary.Workload ballooned, teams exploded, and that little tight knit group that was your team is now suddenly not so little.
Or maybe you need to practice ownership.Either way, now you have all these people who you are responsible for and you feel that responsibility and it keeps you up at night and you wanna do a good job, but there's just so much to do and the sick animals just keep coming in.But you do want to work on Wellness, and you want some Wellness for yourself, but you feel like you need to be there to support the team.
But when was the last time that you went to the gym and the problems just keep coming and the sick pits just keep coming?And yeah, I feel you two other people who feel you are Doctor Marie Oliver, Chuck and Josh Weisman, and they have some solutions for us.
Josh is well, let me introduce himself.So my my name is Josh Weisman.I am the founder and lead positive change agent at Flourish Veterinary Consulting.My background, I've been in vet Med for roughly 25 years and I like to joke.I've done kind of every role in the veterinary practice except be a full veterinarian because I was once the right hand for one who broke her wrist for a couple months, so I got to be her right hand for a couple of months.
I've done just about every role in the practice, from being a technician assistant to practice manager to owning a couple small animal hospitals here in the States.And Marie, here's Marie.So I grew up in the vet profession, so to speak.Both my parents are veterinarians and after I graduated I did advanced training.
I did an internship, small animal emergency in critical care, and then a residency in emergency in critical care.So this conference is near and dear to my heart because it's my specialty conference.And for the last 10 years, I've pivoted into mental health and Wellness.So a lot of advocacy, a lot of education, inspiring individuals, leaders and teams to really make sure that we're prioritizing and fostering our well-being.
I caught up with him last year at the Vex booth on the chairs that looked like polo bears at IVEX 2023 in Denver to talk to them about a session that they'd hosted.Joining me on the couch as Co host was Doctor Ellie Lester, who is a friend and a colleague and also an emergency and critical care specialist and a director at Pet ICU, which is part of the group of hospitals that I work for Animal Emergency Australia.
Ellie joined me as a team leader who is working to overcome many of these challenges that I mentioned at the start.For this session.I put my practice owner head back on from my days as a clinic owner when I very much experienced that lying awake at night worrying about stuff because you know people.
Now before we chat to Josh and Mary, I just wanted to let you know that I will be back in the US at Ivex again in 2024 and back on my couch interviewing some of these stellar speakers to get to the bits of gold from their talks.Both clinical and non clinical topics like this one.I have a plethora of amazing clinical content that I recorded at IVEX 2023 that we've been releasing over on the clinical podcasts, which in case you didn't know, you won't find on your podcast player until you've subscribed to it at vvn.supercast.com and then it gets transported or exported or magic somehow into your podcast player of choice.
We've already released some spectacular content from IVEX, including a chat with the legendary professor Karen Tobias.Talking about traumatic wounds.I talk about why IV fluids makes no sense for those NZ overdoses, new pancreatitis treatments, ultrasound stuff, toxins, decontamination, just so much stuff.
Go and check it out at vvn.supercast.com.Your first two weeks are free.Also, if you don't even know what Ivex and VEX are, VEX is the Veterinary Emergency and Critical Care Society, which as the name suggests, is a society for people who geek out on all things ECC.
VEX membership gives you access to the Journal of Emergency and Critical Care, tons of educational content, free or discounted access to other resources like the Headway Meditation app, as well as heavily discounted tickets to IVEX, which is their giant ECC conference.So you can come and join me on the couch in Saint Louis on I think the 6th to 11th of September 2024.
I do have a vet vault discount code for VEX memberships and it's a real discount, not one of those that you'll get 10% off if you use code.UBID is a knob at checkout, but actually everyone gets the 10% off anyway.This one will give you 35% of your online VEX membership fees.
If you sign up before May at vex.org, that's veccs.org.Here's your code.Vet Vault 2023.That's Capital VET Capital VAU LT2O23.I'll put that in the show description for you.OK, back to the interview.
This one really is for the team leaders.Here's a little teaser.I I think so much of the challenge of leadership is the scalability of relationship, because that's what leadership is.It's a relationship.The first pillar is to make your personal well-being a priority first.
Managers who embody well-being give permission to their team to do that.And if the culture, intentionally or unintentionally, is driving somebody against well-being and we're asking them to become salmon, and veterinary professionals are not salmon.They're human beings.They can't swim up against that current forever.
Join us for this conversation about one of Marie and Josh's sessions called The Four Pillars of Energetic Leadership, which I somehow got in my head as the four peas of leadership.So I spent the night before the interview trying to come up with four peas for veterinary leadership.My best effort based on some of my personal veterinary leadership experience was procrastination, pleading pizza, and pina coladas.
So I was a bit disappointed that none of these made the cut for Josh and Marie, not even buying pizza for the team when everything is going to shit on a crazy busy shift.This conversation is full of the things that you need to hear for the sake of your team, and I hope you enjoyed as much as I did.
Welcome to the Red Vault at IVEX 2023.So Ellie's here not as her because she's an ECC specialist as well, but she's also a business owner and one of the directors of a big company.So when we talk about creating a culture of Wellness, that's the struggles you have with your everyday life, right?
Easy to keep animals alive, keeping A-Team happy in a veteran business.It's a whole different ball game.It's definitely, it's it's almost more important than the clinical level of skill is actually having that that team and having that place where people feel like they belong.
Like, yeah, I really enjoyed your lectures yesterday.Thank you.Really good.And and I did also run a team for a little while.I had my own little vet business for a while and again that that's that's the hardest bid.So both of you go into veterinary businesses as a as an outside perspective, is it usually somebody you would get in touch with you in your business and say look we have problems, come and help us fix it, is that what it looks like?
So I would say the the folks that come to flourish in particular, it's probably eighty 2080% or so are they're they're coming because they're struggling and then they just don't know how to overcome the challenges or the barriers that they have in their way.But actually there's there's quite a surprising amount and really energizing amount of of folks who are actually already doing a pretty good job at it and they just want to continue to get better, which I think probably speaks to a bit of the ethos of the veterinary mind or the veterinary spirit.
If you think if you imagine you know we go through all this training to develop all of the skills and this level of education and knowledge and then we continue our education.And I think a lot of lot of folks in leadership are are viewing it the same way and.Then you think about the many, many, many, many practices who don't look for help.
The poor staff members be the brunt of that.Yes, it's it's that's probably the most troubling for me is the ones that could use the help but don't know or don't care or just aren't.Seeking it Before we kind of kick into some of the summaries that we've you've had in the last few days, I'd really love to know your perspectives of the most challenging aspects of veterinary medicine post this last few years of COVID and what's settled out now compared to probably what we're facing a few years ago.
Yeah, I tend to work more with individuals.So I work with individual team members.I work with practice owners on an individual basis.And then I also work with veterinary business owners who are coaches, consultants and own other businesses in the veterinary space.And everyone is facing their own unique challenges.
I would say within the team space, on the part of the individual team members, many have found themselves in a state of chronic or habitual burnout, like they've been slogging it.They're still doing it and they've been doing it since March of 2020.And they're feeling exhausted and they're working in practices that are chronically understaffed because of our staffing shortages.
And so they're just looking for ways to continue to do the work that they love and to stay afloat.Then we have the leaders who are in a position of leading these teams that are short staffed, that are burnt out, that are feeling disenchanted.Wages have gone up in a lot of situations and they're having to balance that with you know, taking care of everyone and giving everyone the time and space that they need to look after themselves.
So taking care of them and then business owners, I mean the beautiful thing that COVID has done for all of us is created a push towards innovation, right.So we have a lot of new businesses that have come out of COVID like telehealth and telemedicine and all these things and so supporting those business owners and growing their businesses and not burning out and hurting themselves in the process.
So it's, I'm excited.I feel like we're at or past a tipping point in the profession and people really, really wanna shift towards better places and it's just about finding the ways to get us there.And it's also created a push for the leadership I find.
Whereas for most of my career it was like, well, this is what it's like, buddy.If you don't like it, find somebody else.Yeah.And and now it's like, oh shit, I can't necessarily find.I need to make this a business that can take care of the team and provide a culture of Wellness and make it financially successful, which is bloody hard.
It's it's not easy, but it's as you say, it's a push And I feel like the people are going to be standing at the end of all of this will be much better workplaces they're going to have to be.So I'm optimistic too but I'm glad.I'm like, this is eating a big business at the.Moment.Yeah.Your your comment on innovation because that's what's inspired me and that's what, I'm sorry, that's come out of it.
Yeah, There's so will be so many more years ahead because of the need to push for finding efficiencies that bring the team relief.There's so many better ways to do things than what the veterinary profession were doing.And on the back of the human healthcare, they've got a lot of stuff that they've, you know, they've figured out ahead of us or they've got new platforms.
There's a few really, really exciting things that can really help our profession that I've that's what's really inspired.Me so from you Josh, what, what are you seeing as the and I don't know if the the perspective is different between Canada and Australia and America, but challenges let's say you walk into one of those businesses that say we need help and what are the things you see first of all that that's where do you start with the help, what's the biggest need?
Yeah.Hugh, you said something that really stood out to me.You said that there was historically some of the experience that you had was that, hey, this is the way it is and if if it's not for you, then it's not for you and you should go find something else.And that is shifting.
I think there's been this sort of crystallization.You know, I think my wife and I play indoor soccer together, and sometimes you get into a game and you're running and you're chasing and you're doing all the things and you don't really realize how much effort you fully put in until about 1/2 hour after the game is over and then the exhaustion sets in, right?
I feel like that's kind of what's happened in the American veterinary community is that COVID came and everybody just got into, we got to get through this mode and they, they stepped up, everybody really did step up and gave their all and became a really meaningful service to the community, which was wonderful.
And then that kind of ended, if you will, and I put that in air quotes.And and then there was this sort of collective breath.And then this realization of what we've all been through and how this is really just an acute experience of what we've been through the entire time.And this realization, if you will, that we, we don't really need to tolerate this anymore.
And so leadership, I think has shifted to what you said, an awareness that we actually have to be considering the kind of environment that we're creating for our people because if we don't have people, we don't have veterinary medicine.And it's really nice to see that.I have a colleague who who often says the what and the why of leadership is not up for debate anymore.
We know what leadership is supposed to be and we know what workplaces are supposed to be so that the human beings in it can actually get the work done.It's the how that we're catching up at.And I think veterinary medicine is realizing that, OK, we need to do this, but no one's ever shown us how, and we need to learn how.
OK.And is that what decision was about this morning is, is the how?Yes, a lot.A lot of the how so?I'm going to ask a long question how?And after that we'll do climate change, right?Yeah, perfect.Solving all the world's problems today?
Warming.While we're at it.But seriously, maybe why don't you take May I forgot my microphone?That's a great podcast, one or two key takeaways.What you'd like leadership teams because you know, because again, your session, it's full of leaders, right?It's not for the for the employees yet, So what would you like to take away or at least learn more about?
Yeah.So we we came together and and put together what we consider 4 pillars of a team that fosters a culture of well-being, starting with leadership, focusing on leadership.And the first pillar is to make your personal well-being a priority.First right?
To embody that personal well-being.Talking about the fact that there's research out there that demonstrates leaders who embody well-being have teams that are more likely to do the same.Managers who embody well-being give permission to their team to do that.So if you go out on your lunch hour to go for a walk or go for a run and you come back, you're you're giving your team members permission to do that.
If you leave on time, you're giving permission to your team to leave on time, to take breaks, etcetera.And when you're taking care of yourself and embodying personal well-being, you are also showing up as a better leader for your team.Because I don't know about you.But when I'm not taking care of myself, my daughter can attest through this, I I do not show up as a happy, engaged, patient individual, right?
Is she like mom, have your daddy yoga today because I don't look like it.Exactly.Not in so many words, but.Pretty much.Yeah.So that was pillar number one.Pillar #2, Josh, you want to take that one on?Because that was I'm drawing.A blank on the order of.Empowerment.
Can I jump?Can I jump or just underline that?I think that's such a an important thing and it's and it it's so tempting for the leaders to say, well, I've got to show the way of.Yeah, I want to.Ease the load for the team.So I'm going to work extra hard first one and last one out.It's interesting.
Years ago at another conference, there's some British research that did research on why vets to leave the profession.And one of the key, key reasons is they look around and go at the culture and culture being that culture of I'm 60 years old and I'm still working seven days a week and and they go, yeah, that's not for me, I don't want to be there when I'm 60.
It's still working like that.Time out, I'm going to do something else.Yeah, there really is that, you know, I'm going to take it for the team, I'm going to show them working hard is the way to go, etcetera and it's just not not serving the team in the end.And sometimes it comes from a genuine place of really good intentions where like what you were saying, Hugh, the the person in the leadership role feels the need to take care of the team.
And so they always want to be available and always want to show up.And then going back to what Marie was saying, if, if that's what you're embodying, that's also the message that you're sending to your team.And you're unintentionally creating a cultural expectation that this is a place where always available and we always show up, which just perpetuates that sort of martyrdom.
Self sacrifice is the expectation.Yes, exactly.Yeah.All.Right, second pillar.The second thing that we talked about was this idea of empowerment.Once you're embodying the kind of well-being culture that you want to see in the organization, you also have to empower the people who have less power and authority than you to be able to step into caring for their own well-being as well.
So you have to create that environment that gives them some autonomy, some sense of meaningful control over how and when they take care of themselves, that there's choices, that there's options, that they have the freedom to actually pursue those things, that it's actually kind of an expectation.We don't just give lip service to well-being.
We actually expect you to take care of yourself and we're going to follow up with that and encourage you to to do that and cheer you on when you are and pull you aside when maybe you're not.Yeah, we have one of our key leaders in our leadership team, Jane Roberts.She's actually encouraged all of us.
As soon as we're back from a holiday we have to prep poop the next Holiday Inn.And that's something.And she has she's helped me probably more than I realized or she realizes and how she's actually that permission of being being off and having a holiday and it being OK because you do you feel like you know you just got to try and hook in to help the team.
But she's like stop and she I really, I can't thank her enough.She has helped her out of our whole team and throughout all of our stuff really, really proactively encourages taking leave good chunks, trying to help with the rostering and it's made a huge difference.
Ellie, I'm so deeply grateful that you have somebody like that in your life.She she literally.And she'll pull me up too when I'm going a bit off the rails.She's like Ellie if you need a break.That accountability you?Need to go get.On a race boat.Yes, I need a break.So that's wonderful.That's wonderful.
So practically for leaders listening to this, have you guys found good ways of that empowerment?Because it's hard, you can you can take the horse to water, but how do you make it easier in a practical ways?I the business background that I have really always kind of pushes me to think of you can't really manage what you're not measuring.
You know, we think of these concepts of empowerment in a a very ethereal and sort of fuzzy way and I want us to make them more tangible.So let's measure it.Let's consider what are the elements of empowerment?What does that mean to us here?What are the things that we're doing, actually doing the actions we take, the policies we have, the procedures.
Do we have somebody that ensures that everybody's actually using their holiday time to to take that time for themselves?And if we don't, why don't we, if that's something that's important to us.So actually measuring those things and then creating some sort of an action plan to ensure that that actually happens.
And along the way, being careful and considered about what are the unintended consequences of some of the norms and expectations that we have here.So that we're just aware of that.It's really just taking the time.I think we leave a lot of this to chance.Unfortunately, there's too many other things to do.
The tangible draws and expectations, the little fires that we have to put out every day.I get that those are real things and we should carve out time for the things that are important as well, and these are things that are important.I listened to a podcast recently and it was not in the veterinary space, but where our leader actually said Jersey employees would say, oh, you know, he felt they all worked too hard away.
You know, everyone really committed and he gave them unlimited leave, he said.I don't want to monitor your leave.You you guys, you take as much leave as you want.It's a brave move.And.Shouldn't shouldn't be there with me?But I was like, that is an amazing, empowering concept that he trusts his staff enough that they will work hard for him and being able to say on his unlimited leave, wow.
Anything to add there Marie?I mean, there's so many different ways that you can bring your team members into the mix in terms of empowerment.So, you know, having conversations with them, not just about the work and the goals within the workplace, but what are you wanting to achieve in your personal life with regards to your mental health and Wellness?
Like what does that look like for you And cheerleading them along the way and making sure that they have the tools and strategies in place to be able to do that.Like Josh gave the great example this morning of someone who says, you know, I really want to get back into the gym.I really want to have a two to three day a week gym habit.
And so if the practice owner or manager knows that and they can have those check insurance and say, hey, how have you been?Have you been to the gym?Well, no, because we have that case that came in at the end of my shift yesterday.And then today I've got this other case and da, da, da, da, da to say, well, hey, why don't we do some adjustments, We make some changes so that we can get you out of here today and to the gym, which is where you want to be and what we had talked about making happen for you.
So just letting them know that there's openness to have these conversations.You know, we're human beings.And as human beings, we have needs that extend outside of the workplace.And how can we integrate that?How can we empower our team members to prioritize that and know that it's OK and to lean on others for support when they're not able to make it happen?
Challenges from you, Ellie.What do you guys struggle with in making it?It's like these things are always great to talk about.But actually making, as you say, making the time for it, Yeah.And I know there'll be people listening to this going, yeah, it's great.I love that idea.But I can't even find, I don't know the staff.I can't make time with the schedule for this because it's just too we're out of staff, which I don't know.
Are those excuses or what do you struggle with as a business?Yeah.I think the challenges for us during COVID was just such rapid.We had rapid growth like that.We had the most probably rapid growth out of all of our hospitals because they just seem to that extra level of intensive care, the caseload and our team is such a tight knit team that cares so much like they that's why they're there and they're so good at their job.
And everyone, you know we we pulled together in a way that I was you know you look back at it and you're just so proud of seeing how well we did on the whole get through it.And now we've got that slight kind of catch up because we've employed more staff and now it's training and getting a greener team up to speed as a big with a bigger team.
And also probably the biggest challenge at the moment is that tipping point of becoming a larger team like we were previously A-Team, you know kind of under 30 in an intensive care unit, 24/7 rostering, you know, keeping that place ticking along and now we're tipping over 40.
And it's just that shipping point of protocols, policies, induction, training, making sure everyone got a path and knowing where they are and role clarity.And that's where I think our struggle now is catching up on on and catching up for the whole team and just refocusing on on the actual team rather than that growth was I think the growth we just somehow coach.
But yeah, it's just stopping and breathing again and again Jane, who years ago she said I'm going to get you to 8 hour vet shifts, vet rosters.And I almost like, I almost laughed.I was like you know but I'd back her because I believe in her and we are so close.
We've got to, we're so close to.We've got our vet rosters kind of split now.So we've got 2/8 hour shifts and the third I wanted to come in overnight, whereas before we used to have one vet for the day and if the day went a bit pear shaped it could turn into a 1415 totally.
Yeah, and.Now we know you can the plan to line them up where the vet, the whole team comes on vet and nurse, nurse tech team, we come on and it's 3/8 hour shifts in a 24 hour period and you know you can always hand over and so you can hopefully plan to go to the gym and plan to do something.
The ultimate goal is to find that work life balance for a 24/7 team that.So yeah, what What do you say to A to a client who says, yeah, great, I love it, Josh.It's just very hard.I'm feeling discouraged.Yeah, it that's a really wonderful question.Some of it really depends on what they value and what's important to them.
That's going to tailor the message that gets sent to them.Some clients are worried about money, they're worried about finances and reasonably so.I mean it's sometimes very tight margins that we're towing in a veterinary business.And so that is a legitimate concern.
And so we'll have that conversation about what the cost of not taking these initiatives might be and what the potential savings are or improvements and the increase to productivity that could come as a result of that.Some people are just worried about holding it all together.And you know, we talked about then what it would look like to actually delegate out and relieve yourself of all of that pressure because you have a team that's helping to hold it all together instead of just you.
So it really depends a lot on it.But Ellie, you said something that really stood out to me.You said that one of the challenges that that you were facing or that you've been facing has been has come with growth of the challenge of growth is a very real thing.We have a client that we've been working with now for quite some time.
They started as an organization of less than 10 people, and now they're pushing 100.And it's still privately owned.And they often talk about how, you know, sometimes I come to work and I walk through the halls and I see people and I don't know their name, and I really miss that rubbing elbows thing.
What's?It Dunbar's number or what will they talk about whether whether you've been psyche, we've got the ability to connect with up to 150 people, yes.And beyond that, it's too big for you.Exactly.And so, so that is the essential challenge.I I think so much of the challenge of leadership is the scalability of relationship because that's what leadership is.
It's a relationship.And if you have a high quality relationship with somebody, you're going to be able to create that kind of environment where both you and they will succeed, you'll both thrive together.But that kind of a relationship, it takes a lot of intention, a lot of energy and a lot of time.And you can do it with 10 or 15 people or maybe 20 or 25 depending on what level of leadership you're in or what your responsibilities are.
But once you start getting to that 40, or that 50, or that 100, it cannot revolve around you solely.And so you have to find a way to scale yourself, if you will, or at least scale the responsibility of cultivating those relationships.Are we at #3, the third thing?
Yeah.Yeah.So the third pillar is creating a psychological health and safety in the workplace.So something that we never used to talk about.I feel like it's even a concept that was new to me a few years ago and something we know is incredibly important.And that goes beyond the ability for people to speak up without repercussions to say if they made a mistake or to ask a question or even make a suggestion.
That's kind of traditionally what people think about when they think about psychological safety.That's the work of Amy Cuddy.But it's more than that.And in Canada, I can speak to the National Standards for Psychological Health and Safety, which came out a few years ago, which are actually 13 different facets that create psychological health and safety.
And they range from workload that is reasonable, which in emergency and critical care is feels out of our control sometimes and is very challenging to making sure that people are not being exposed to psychological harm on a regular basis.
So we're not asking our team members to do things that they do not feel qualified to do, like talking owner down who's having a serious mental health crisis or do a surgery that they've never done before because the owner can't afford to go to a different hospital or whatever it might be.
Even the culture within the workplace in terms of having a culture of civility and respect so that nobody is worried they're going to show up to work and be attacked or bullied or psychologically harmed by someone else.So it really does come down to limiting psychological harm in the workplace.
And like I say, a lot of that falls on the leadership.Some of that falls on the team and the way they treat each other.Again, that defaults to the leadership because we all need to be held accountable.And some of it is embedded within practice policies and in the infrastructure.
So part of psychological health and safety is preventing physical harm.So do we have ergonomic workstations?Do we have lift tables?Do we have policies around handling fractious animals?Do we have policies in place for an unsafe client coming into the hospital?So it's a huge topic.
It's one I'm quite passionate about and I'm glad to know that it's one that we're speaking to in the veterinary context.Do you get much resistance from certain leadership teams or or owners?And I'll tell you why I say that because behind closed doors on social media networks and stuff, where there's practice owners together, it's often a sort of a snide, sarcastic vibe of, yeah, these snowflake new grads that need their hands held and need to protect their like, it's a little bit of cynicism.
And they do it because they know otherwise they will have no staff.But but they go, in my day, we weren't as soft as this.Yeah, yeah, yeah.Do you do you get that or other people that employ you there?Yeah, I mean, absolutely.You know, we all come from our own lens of experience.
And you know, yes, some of us trained 20 years ago when things were admittedly extraordinarily different.Like, I look back to when I graduated from vet school and it's I I can't even tell you how how different it is today, right, And how different the workplace is today.
And I think if we continue to have this idea that, you know, team members these days are just overly sensitive or I feel like, you know, I can't say or do anything today because someone is going to take offense to it.We want to really shift the language to recognizing that I think this stuff was always harmful.
Nobody said anything about it.They just sort of grinned and bear it, buried it.And now we have the research to demonstrate that psychological harm in the workplace leads to a lot of absenteeism.It leads to a lot of, you know, calling in sick or avoiding tasks or avoiding people in the workplace.
I mean, there's research to demonstrate that this has physical and mental health ramifications for our workforce and has financial ramifications for the practices who are experiencing turnover, absenteeism, patient care, mishaps because people aren't talking or people aren't showing up or whatever it might be.
So I think there's enough case to show that.Yeah, no, this is an argument.I'm not.Trying to convince.You I'm just.Is it a is it a almost a lack of empathy or a lack of being able to understand?Because I'm a 45 year old man and I don't face the challenges that my new graduate, 22 year old female vet faces or my tech who's 17 or something like that.
So it's very, I'm not saying me personally, but it'd be hard to imagine this drug as I go.I don't get it.I don't understand why you're so sensitive about stuff like.Hard to imagine.And then I think sometimes hard to accept responsibility and take ownership like I do see leaders who are very resistant to that because it's almost as if they're admitting I'm doing something wrong and I need to change.
But it's like, but I've always done it this way.I've always said it this way, and now you're telling me I have to, like, not permit these sarcastic comments in the workplace.Like, that's just who I am, that's that's how I behave.That's how I enact humor in the workplace.So recognizing that may be actually harmful to some of your team members.
So I think there's a lot of personal It feels almost like a personal attack, or it induces shame or or something amongst leadership.And that's right in there as well for years now.It's something that's rung very true in me is is saying the standard that I walked past is the standard I'm willing to accept.
And so it makes me just go hang on, no, you can't you can't not have that conversation or not, you know turn a blind eye to something because it's it's not fair on the whole team.And the other one which our leadership team we've started in this last kind of six months is slowly infiltrating is the above the line and below the line on a concept and it's the leadership's team and management to hold the line and having the team kind of self regulate and just have something you go where do you think that sits above or below.
And you know it is our responsibility to make sure that the line is held and something where there's still a lot of work should be done and it'll be constant, it'll never stop.But that's something that just simplifies.I find it, you know, quite a simple concept.When you show them the three minute YouTube above the line and below the line you go, OK, where where do you, where are you falling at the moment and actually asking them, not not telling them?
Well, that's out of line like.Yes, yes, I love that.I'll be at #4.Yeah, I believe so.OK, so #4 is really about what what we think of as cultural architecture and taking the time to really recognize those unintended consequences of the norms and the values that we hold so that we don't create these moments of dissonance among team members.
Often times we have all the very best intentions and we'll have standards or values that are important to us.You know, we are a patient first practice.We we are a hospital where we help each other teamwork those kinds of things.Right?Yeah.That's what it says on the wall.
And.And we don't take the time to really truly define that and make it behavioral, make it measurable, make it tangible.And so the result of that is it come.It creates a life of its own.And sometimes, you know, there are unintended consequences.We in today's workshop, one table, was talking about this idea of, you know, we help each other.
And in their practice, what they found in the past is that having this cultural norm, which is a wonderful norm to have, there's what a beautiful thing to imagine that we are a place where everybody supports each other, we help each other, great, But if that's where the norm stops, then the unintended consequence that they discovered was that people never felt like they could say no.
And so if I'm already busy and overwhelmed and you ask me for help now, I feel like I need to add your troubles to my pile.And that's problematic.That's not OK.So we have to be aware of what our norms are, what our expectations are, where the mismatches might be happening.
Not because we're bad people, but because we just haven't really taken the time to consider this and restructure things, reframe them with intention, with policy, with procedure, so that instead of we help each other full stop, It becomes what did they say?We help each other when it's possible.
How it's possible?And as quickly as we can.And as quickly as it's, yeah, as as as reasonable.Like that because I've I've literally looked at a practices values once and I had that same thought.I was like that's great but to what extent to what personal prize how far do you take it?
So I like that you put a put a caveat to that.That's how you dress and be be clear on it, right?Anything else to add?I mean, I think there's culture is just so much, right?Like it's this whole ethos of the practice, you know, the unspoken rules and everything else, and it kind of ties everything together.
You know, the unspoken rule is if my leader, my manager is taking care of themselves and I can do it too.And if I see someone being held accountable for their rude or uncivil behavior, then I know that I need to keep myself in check as well.
So it just creates this.I don't know how to put it into words, but it just creates these norms for behavior within the practice that just go beyond what the values on the wall say.It's like the flow of a very powerful river.That's what culture is it.
It's going to nudge us all in a particular direction.And if the culture, intentionally or unintentionally, is driving somebody against well-being and we're asking them to become salmon, and veterinary professionals are not salmon.They're human beings.They can't swim up against that current forever.
We have to adjust the current to allow them to go in that direction.Yeah, another again, it was another one liner that I I heard on a podcast about culture is kind of the collective soup that we're all swimming in every day.
You know, we're all contributing to it and that the values, the core values are actually what can percolate to the top and that's what we're all responsible for and not this top down, you know, our way.Definitely.We've got to have this.
We're going to be leaders in the, you know, the top of the company's got to be embodied and having that culture from the top down.But the bottom up also, they're actually more important than, you know, to sit back and kind of go, Oh well, then you know the the culture.
He stinks or so.And so he's not got it sorted and you're like actually hang on, it's us.I'm on the floor up.You've got to have that culture come through.Are you, are you familiar with Seth Godin, the market?Yeah.I love his definition of culture.It's very simple.It just says culture is people like us do things like this.
Yeah.What is your culture?Well, have a look.This is what we do.This is who we are and this is how we do it.And Yep, I heard something the other day.It's a bit of a tangent, but when we talk about the concept of neuroplasticity, that neurologically you are shaped by your culture, not just behaviorally.
Yeah, literally.Neurologically your neuro pathways will change.So culturally, obviously that's why you have country cultural differences because we say in that same soup, it actually affects your brain.It adds a lot of responsibility to a leader.So you literally shaping your team with brains?
Yes.So is there anything else from the session or the talk of the session this morning?Because I think we will.Let's stick with what we talk about now, otherwise we'll be forever.I'd love to get you guys back on.Actually on on the official podcast, that'd be great.Anything for ibex that you'd like people to take away as a leader listening to this in his standouts, but there was a lot in there.
But if am I missing anything else or are you happy with what we've covered?No, I mean, I think that, you know, one of the resounding themes that came up at the end in my mind was this notion of being clear is kind.I think sometimes we, you know, we feel like telling someone what we need or being clear and how we want to hold people accountable or what we can or cannot do or don't feel comfortable doing.
We feel like, oh, you know, I just, I don't want to rock the boat.I don't want to do anything or that's just too upfront and direct.And I think just reminding ourselves that it's actually better that we just clearly have it out in the open, Talk about it, talk about your challenges from a leadership perspective, talk about your challenges as a team member and then come together and figure it out.
Because the alternative, which is not saying anything, showing up, becoming resentful, exhausted, burnt out, frustrated.It is just going to seep into the culture and it's going to inform how the team interacts with each other.So that comes from Brené Brown that clear his kind and that was a big just in all the conversations and the comments from the group this.
Morning That really.Came with me.Very, very people pleasing.Amiable.Yes.Group of people.So giving clear feedback.It's just I find it stressful.So you'll often Stew on it and stay on it.And then it becomes a little bit, the little things become a resentment.
Yeah.Nice.Thank you so, so much.Ellie, thank you for joining us.Thank you for the work that you do.That's such important work and thanks for sitting down and I'd love to connect with you guys again.Thanks for having us.Great.Conversation.Appreciate you.Thank you.Before you disappear, I wanted to tell you about our new weekly newsletter.
I speak to so many interesting people and learn so many new things while making the podcast, so I thought I'd go ahead a little summary each week of the stuff that stood out for me.We call it the Vet Vault 321 and it consists of firstly 3 clinical Pearls.These are three things that I've taken away from.
The clinical podcast episodes, my light bulb moments, the penny dropping, any new facts and the stuff that we need to know to make all the other pieces fit.Then two other things This could be quotes, links, movies, books, a podcast, highlight, anything that I've come across outside of clinical vetting that I think you might find interesting.
And then one thing to think about.I'll share something that I'm pondering, usually based on something that I've read or heard, but sometimes it'll be just my own musings or rants.The goal of.This format is that you can spend just two to three minutes on the clinical stuff and move right along if that's all that you're after.But if you're looking for content that is more nourishing than cat videos or doom scrolling, then our two other things should send you in the right direction.
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Dr Marie Holowaychuk

Josh Vaisman