Dec. 21, 2023

#109: Why Lifelong Learning Is Critical For Joy, Who Regulates The Regulators, and The Changing Face of Continuing Education. With Dr Zoe Lenard.

#109: Why Lifelong Learning Is Critical For Joy, Who Regulates The Regulators, and The Changing Face of Continuing Education. With Dr Zoe Lenard.
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Season 1

This episode is available as a video podcast on Spotify.

In this episode, Dr Zoe Lenard shares with us the importance of continuous learning for a fulfilling veterinary career, both in technical and non-technical aspects. She discusses adult learning, the pitfalls of perfectionism, and the impact these have on personal growth.

Dr Zoe Lenard is a dynamic radiologist with a passion for connection and excellence. Her big-picture goal is to promote a culture of high-performing, sustainable veterinary teams. She works as a clinical radiologist, business owner, and teacher, in referral practice at Animalius in Perth, Western Australia. She is an adjunct professor in Radiology at City University Hong Kong, and has a wealth of experience teaching graduate veterinarians, both through GP education and in resident training.

But Zoe's interests go beyond radiology; she's also the inaugural Chair of the Sustainable Practice Committee of the Australasian Veterinary Boards Council, a role that aims to promote high-performing, sustainable veterinary teams.

In this conversation, Zoe explains her work and how the committee supports professional growth within the veterinary ecosystem in Australia, and how the boards are working to change the perception that they are there just to police us. We discuss the current state of continuing education: how we measure it, it's efficacy, and what could be changing in the field of CPD, including the regulation of veterinary nurses in Australia.

 

Topic list:

5:17 No one actively makes a bad decision.

10:24 If you stop learning, life becomes boring.

21:59 Where does the Sustainable Practice Committee fit into Aus Vet science?

30:48 Zoe's hopes for future CPD.

46:28 Practical tips for being an engaged practitioner.

53:42 Regulation of the veterinarian nurses and why it's important.

64:05 What Zoe would like to say as the representative of the boards.

66:07 Zoe's favourite books.

69:00 Zoe's one piece of advice to new grad vets.

 

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In this week's newsletter, I wrote something about nerds, which, by the way, if you never listen to the end of the podcasts, do the bit where I tell you about the newsletters.We have a weekly newsletter where I send out a little summary of three things that I'd learned in the week from the clinical podcasts.Two other things which can be a quote or a book or a podcast or whatever I've come across during the week that's not directly ventilated That caught my attention.
And then a longer bit of writing by me about something that's on my mind for that week.There's a link to the newsletter in the show description wherever you're listening to this if you're interested.Anyway, back to nerds.So the reason I wrote about nerds is because I've started our community of subscribers to the clinical podcast Our Vet Vault Nerds.
This is because the domain for the sign up page is vvn.supercast.com VVN being for the Vet Vault network.But I got bored of Vet Vault Network, so I started telling people that it is for Vet Vault nerds.Then I started worrying that maybe I'm insulting people by calling them nerds.
So I did a bit of a Google search for what the actual definition of a nerd is, and I found two definitions #1 an intelligent person who is extremely enthusiastic and knowledgeable about a particular subject, especially one of specialist or niche interest. #2, an unstylish or socially awkward person.
Now, I'd say that if you're listening to this, it'll be fair to say that you're a nerd.Based on that first definition.You are spending some of your valuable time engaging with this very specialist niche subject.But why?What's the benefit to you?Why not just page out on some other form of entertainment or have a glass of wine and a nap?
Maybe you are.I know I definitely have a couple of podcasts that I listened to to help me nap.Doctor Zoe Leonard thinks that we do it, that we need to keep learning because it's only by staying curious that we, as she puts it, build a bridge to staying engaged in our field.
So let me start this by saying well done to you or working on your nerd skills.In this episode, Zoe helps us look at why ongoing learning, both technical and non-technical, is essential for a happy vet life, how we learn as adults, and why our perfectionism often cuts our attempts at personal growth or fit the knees.
But who is Doctor Zoe Leonard?Well, for starters, based on that first definition, she's definitely a radiology nerd.Although if you watch the video version of this, which by the way is now an option, if you listen to us on Spotify, you'll see that she's anything but unstylish or socially awkward.
But being a specialist radiologist, I think it would be fair to call her enthusiastic and knowledgeable, right?She works as a clinical radiologist and is a business owner and teacher in Referral Practice at Animalias in Perth and WA.She's also an adjunct professor in Radiology at City University Hong Kong, and she has a wealth of experience teaching graduate veterinarians both through GPA, education and in resident training.
But she also nerds out on a lot of other stuff, like her role as the inaugural chair of the Sustainable Practice Committee of the Australian Veterinary Boards Council, which we'll tell you about more in this episode.Zoe's work in all of these endeavors is driven by a passion for connection and excellence, with a big picture goal to promote a culture of high performance Sustainable Veterinary Team.
And in this episode, Zoe tells us what that looks like and how she's helping to achieve that, including through her work with the Sustainable Practice Committee.She explains how the committee aims to help support our growth and our careers and how they fit into the veterinary landscape in Australia.But how do we measure that growth like in real practical terms?
We're all familiar with CPT points and registration requirements, but how good is that system really at making sure that we learn the right things and learn it the right way?Like does it just give us a box to tick or are we learning to actually impact our patients and our well-being?
Part of Zoe's involvement with the Australian Veterinary Boards Council is to think about this question and in this conversation she tells us about some big changes that are coming around CE Point, including regulation of our veterinary nurses here in Australia.Zoe also puts on her vet board hat to tackle the common gripe amongst vets that are regulating bodies like the boards don't actually serve us well and in fact often appear to be there mainly to prosecute us.
We talk about trust, about what a high performance team looks like, about learning from our mistakes, and much, much more.Please enjoy Doctor Zoe Leonard.Welcome to the Red Vault podcast.
Thanks for having me.I've known.It's weird.Have we ever met in person?Because I've known of you from my days in Perth for a very long time and I'm I'm sure I've asked you for advice on stuff and stuff to you, but I don't think we've actually ever met in person.I don't.
I don't think so.And it's really interesting.In my career as a veterinary radiologist, I know a lot of people remotely, if you like, either over the phone or via e-mail or or some other platform.So I am quite visual and I don't recall meeting your face before, so it's lovely to see you in person.
Thank you very much.I've definitely seen you in person speaking.It wasn't a two way conversation, Zoe.I normally start these with a with a statement.I actually saw it on the side of the Sterling Highway once as a big graffiti that said bad decisions lead to good stories, which made me think about that and think of some of my bad decisions.
Do you agree with that?And if you do, do you have any stories for us like that?You can also disagree.I have lots of people who say no, no, I've had traumatic experiences from my bad decisions.Look, I was thinking about this.No one actively makes a bad decision, you know?
So every decision we make, we make with the best intent and with the data or the information that we have in front of us.When it turns out to be bad, like that's an opportunity to go back and reflect on why it was bad.I'm not a perfectionist.I think that's one of my special skills is not being a perfectionist.
So you try not to worry about your decisions and just learn from them.So I think that all decisions lead to good stories, if you like.Some of them are boring, but there's there's a lot to learn.I think some of the best life lessons I've had have been from my mistakes, but I try to be humble about them and and learn from them.
So I don't have any particular decision that I think, oh gosh, that's going to lead to a story that's enlightening.You know, I think it's just a cycle of reflecting and process.I wonder about your statement that nobody ever wilfully makes bad decisions.If you like, there's many decisions involving alcohol that will contradict that statement where people go.
Yeah, I think I'll have one.More perhaps I was thinking professionally, but we are the we are.It's a really interesting point, Hugh.We are the product of our own biases, aren't we Inherently we bring our bias to everything and our bias is our experience and that's you know, you give so much weight to your experience, don't you?
N = 1 and you're like, Oh my goodness, I did that once in surgery and it bled and I'm never doing that again.And it's not decision making is not a rational process at all.I think rationality is is machines.But when you throw that human and emotional element into it, a lot of the decisions we make are not rational.
My husband did an MBA many, many years ago and one of the questions was he had to talk about decision making and the rationality of it.And he used marriage and our marriage as the decision and said it was a highly irrational decision to make and if you like weighed up the pros and cons, you know it would come out on like don't go here.
But he made it anyway, and it was a great.Foolish slash brave talk to do.Were you in the audience when you did this talk?Yeah, yeah, it is brave.And I guess it brings up conflict, which is something that has to be approached in a really healthy way because sometimes someone says something to you that is so contrary to what you expect or grates on you.
And it takes all of your you have to put your bias aside, don't you, to listen to their argument and understand where they're going and what their perspective was.So I found that, yeah, I thought, oh, how offensive that you're using something so personal and about me in an assignment.
But it it look, it was, it was his perspective and it was, it was an argument and nonetheless we've remained together for a couple of decades.So I think that if we, if we had a counter to that now, I could look at all the ways I've improved his life.So I think, you know, there's decisions, isn't there?
And then there's perspective, you know, one or the other.So yeah, it's an interesting story.Well, it's like somebody once or actually I thought of the answer to my own question once and I thought probably the the most obvious one to me would be having kids.Again, if you look at it rationally, it makes no sense.
It's probably the dumbest thing you can do, but it's sure it's a lot of good stories that comes from some of the best stories come out of that decision.Yes, so so true.And then the oxytocin that flows from that, you know all of those are doing affirming hormones that come from that close knit bond of that you know precious relationship that's quite different to any other relationship you have.
I saw quite the other day on this topic of decisions and trying to make their perfect decision with incomplete information.It's from a professor in philosophy.I've written down your professor in philosophy.It's for many big life choices.
We only learn what we need to know after we've done it, and we change ourselves in the process of doing it.I'll argue that in the end, the best response to this situation is to choose based on whether we want to discover who we will become.Can I wholeheartedly affirm by that?
Because you can never be in a position where you have all the answers.And then what happens in that process is going to feedback into how you behave next time.So you know, we got to cut ourselves some slack.We make the best decisions we can and we hopefully learn from them.
And don't make too many mistakes.You know, the same mistake in a row.But we're always going to make mistakes.And that's that's fun, right?That's how you learn.Yep, in life and in veterinary science.Very valid in both those scenarios.Yeah, well, if you stop learning, boring, so.
Yeah, absolutely.So you have many hats that you wear.We talked off air and I know certainly from the the days that I knew you back as a as a specialist who I referred to.So you've got Zoe, the specialist diagnostic magician or imaginer or whatever somebody else called you guys one day.
And there's Zoe the the teacher or the educator.There's the mom.And we'll spend some time talking about Zoe, the chair of the sustainable Practice Committee.I want to circle back to that to figure out what exactly that is, but let's start with that teacher and educator and what you just said there about if you stop learning, life becomes boring.
Why is that so important to you, especially out of the traditional university, university pre grad environment?Well, I think the the first point is that you you can't know everything.There's so much there's an explosion of knowledge in our field.
And the the second point for me is that to to learn is to innately be curious about what's going on and to ask kind of why and and what next.So if you have that approach then that feeds into engagement and interest because we get more interested the more we learn.
And I love teaching undergraduates or vet students, but my passion here is graduate veterinarians who are working because they can come along to something and you have a chat about a concept or something they know and they go, aha, they have an aha moment.
And that is so special to me because that's what really floats my boat, because it's that link between sort of knowledge, innate knowledge and understanding that can only be gained with the bridge of experience.So you can have all the book learning you like, but until you've had certain experience in, you know, in your fields and you can apply that knowledge backwards if you like, that helps you recognize forwards how to be a bit a better veterinarian.
And it could be technical.I'm talking radiology here.It might be that you understand, you know, what pancreatitis might look like on an X-ray, but it might be more subtle than that.It it might be that you understand how to engage with your team in a more effective way or you think, oh, I didn't handle that conversation very well.
So to maintain curiosity, I think really gives you a bridge to staying engaged in your field.And it it might not be a professional field, it might be that you've got a hobby.You know, I learnt to swim recently and I think I'm just so keen to learn to improve.
You know, you have that S curve, if you like, where your progress is slow to start with and then you have an exponential improvement and then you kind of taper off at the top and plateau as you become expert.And what I would like to do with my life is never really become expert.So when you think you're at that plateau, then you need to find something else to learn.
So that's why education is so important to me.And I've had the benefit of being very niche in one area, radiology, and I like to share that insight.But every time I teach, I learn from my students.I think, gosh, that's an interesting question.
I've never thought of it like that.So moving away, adult learning is very much two way.It's not just teaching, it's teaching and learning for whoever's in the room.I have to ask if you say you recently learned to swim as in from scratch or learned how to swim from scratch.
No, not from scratch.So I could swim.You know, growing up in Australia, I could, you could throw me in the pool and I could swim.But you know, beyond 50 meters.That that's why I'm asking a a W Australian who can't swim is it sounds like an anomaly.Well, I couldn't swim to rot nest and I'm not saying I could now, but now I have an idea of what it really means.
By that I meant the other the other passionate thing that I have or the other key thing that I think is important as an adult is always to have something that you're learning cause adults learn differently to children.Children are so robust and plastic and they just do stuff.You would I see that with your sons.I see that with my daughters.
They're like, oh whatever, yeah, we'll do it.What else?We have this kind of perfectionist tendency.So to start to learn something completely new means you have to be inherently vulnerable and expect that you can't do it and it's going to be hard and that you're going to fail.
And I think that humility is a really important skill to bring to life because that gives you an ability to relate to other people, whether that be at work or in life or you know, if you come across a friend who's learning a new a new skill.So I think that coming back to teaching, your question about teaching, the concept of what is teaching and what is learning sort of expands and evolves in my mind as I move through my career and my life.
And and when we talk about specifically industry specific learning and ongoing learning, I've learned so much about that in the last five ideas or so.And primarily I'm learning for myself and I'll come back to the how but that it's not for our patients or our clients, it is for them.
That's almost a byproduct that when you get better at or know more or get better at that you can do the thing that you there to do much better.But it's exactly you said that word engagement, it's so much more fun not to feel like not to have that impostor feeling of going well.
I don't really know what I'm doing yet or as you say, there's light bulb moments of going.I had it, I had an opportunity.So because I do the, I'm not sure if you if you know about these, but I do the clinical podcasts where I interview specialists like yourself But about the field of expertise.
And I have to confess that probably for the 1st 10 years of my career, not really until starting these podcasts, I didn't have a very proactive approach to learning.I sort of felt well I've spent my six years at uni killing myself learning vet stuff kind of done with that.
Yeah I learned stuff but it was on the job learning and it was as you get a case you read a little bit and I and I'd go to conferences which I always enjoyed.But I I didn't have a a hunger for learning more.And definitely I think part of because I've often said on this podcast the 1st 10 years of my career 10 ideas, I didn't really love it.
That's fine.But I didn't love it.And and I think one of the ingredients is once I started doing these podcasts and now often and actively learning, those light bulbs are going off all the time.I had an episode recently where we talked about, I think we talked about lactate.
And in that explanation we went back to oxidative phosphorylation in the Krebs cycle which is way back in my traumatic memories of Physiology.And yeah, and I hated it and I didn't get it.I I scrammed it into my head to get through the exam, but it made no sense and suddenly I went, ah, oh cool, that's oh there that HP comes in and out.
And it was such a lovely moment of going it's I I get it.I understand it.So no, I totally, totally get what you mean.And it does make me me learning like this on a on a much more regular basis makes me really want to shout from the rooftops to people get learning.
I know that you do vet stuff all day at work and I know that when you're not at work you kind of want to get away from it and don't want to get more vet stuff.But just a little bit, you know, half an hour a week read something an hour a week, listen to something.
It's really fun.It makes work much more fine.Quick interruption.I didn't really intend for that to be a total plug for our clinical podcasts, but I'm editing this and I'm thinking that's what I should use in my marketing.So there it is.Why you should sign up our clinical podcast if you haven't already, Go to vvn.supercast.com.
That's for wet felt nerds to, as Zoe puts it so elegantly, build that bridge to greater career engagement through becoming curious again.OK, back to Zoe.Well, what you've described so beautifully is your transition to being a self-directed learner, which is you know, away from learning as a chore, Learning that I had to do because I had an exam and an end goal, you know, the semester finished or the degree finished to learning because of innate curiosity and the motivation for that is different for each person.
It might be like you said that you're doing some research for a podcast and then you think that's it, that's great.Now I get contextualizes all of that learning or it might be that we're tired work and we want to be reengaged or we want to learn something new.But in doing that it allows you to look backwards and and reflect on what you've done and then plan forwards.
And that's the key, that plan and reflect cycle, which is it sounds so sensible when we discuss it, but it's actually a very high order thing to do.And if you give someone a task, reflect on what you've done, make a statement on how you're going to change and improve next time, it kind of becomes a ticker box exercise.
And so to me, it's about convincing people to find the joy because once you're motivated to do that, you just do it inherently, don't you?And if you did this for 10 years and got a bit sick of it, you might, you'd say I've done that for a while and I'm going to switch to something else.
But it's always about being engaged and having that curiosity and I think that's what you've described so beautifully.Yeah, I'm a big fan.I don't know if you've come across casts or writing or anything, but Seth Godin marketed teacher type person.And he's got a saying that he says nobody's ever learned about, nobody's ever learned how to ride a bicycle to pass a bicycle riding test.
You you learn it because of the joy of it, because you wanna you wanna do it.It's fun.And I often think of that.And you can't learn it from reading a book.No, exactly.That's.I think that's the full statement.Exactly.Nobody's ever learned to ride a a bicycle by reading a book to pass the bicycle riding test.
And I think that's the other point about a a veterinary degree.It's such a broad based skills degree, but we focus so much on the technical skills which is the howls, how to do something technical.And I can attest that widely through leadership, pool management, human resources, culture, business leadership philosophy and there's so many lessons all of those areas can allow us to apply and engage with our learning.
And this is really my passion.Hue with the sustainable practice committee is shifting ongoing learning away from just technical skills.That is how do I be a better radiologist, How do I be a surgeon, How sure what does this blood clugos curve mean to actually how do we improve team culture.
And we do that not by reading a blood glucose curve.We do that by learning to listen and reflect on our interactions and really improving our relationships within whatever workplace environment we are whether it be clinical or government or you know research and and that's how you get to the high performing team.
And that's really my passion for the Sustainable Practice Committee is if you can get vets to think about what engages them in their career and help them find a path to continue that engagement, then you'll have a lot more buy in for that career, you know and and and duration in that career.
And that's what I hope to get to with some of my work and sustainable Practice committee.Tell us about the Sustainable Practice Committee.And I think this is going to be more relevant for our Australian lists.So listeners, so apologies for the the others, but what is this committee and and how does it fit into the broader picture of Australian veterinary science?
Sure.Well, it's actually Australia and New Zealand, but there are similar models occurring around the world and there's lots of work going on around the world, so it's probably applicable around the world.It's a bit of a a short story with some acronyms.The Australasian Veterinary Boards Council is the group that supports the regulators in Australia and New Zealand, the regulators of the Vet Resurgence Boards if you like, or the vet Council in New Zealand that allows every veterinarian to be registered.
OK, so they're what we have to pay a fee to be registering.And those groups look at making sure that as a profession we're regulated, that there's a standard that no one can call themselves a vet without having the appropriate degree act according to professional standards.
So they regulate schools, they deal with complaints against into veterinarians and they look at specialist qualifications and look at foreign graduates that come in.So 2021 they decided that they would shift just from that pure kind of regulatory approach and look at what are the issues with the veterinary profession about sustainability.
Now, no surprises.We've all been talking about challenging, particularly clinical careers, loss of great people because they're burnt out, challenges with getting foreign graduates, you know, foreign nurses.So this group of regulators decided let's apply some really serious thought as to how we make this career sustainable in the future.
And so they set up a sustainable practice committee and I chair that committee.So we're looking at a whole range of issues within sustainability and it's not surprising to know that if any of this was easily sold, it would be sold.So these are are complex issues, but it's it's looking at it from the regulator's perspective.
That's a big shift for the for the boards.So again you said so the AVBC Veterinary Boards Council, that's the body that overseas or overseas or supports the individual boards in Australia, that'll be the Queensland Vet Board, the NSW, Washington, all all that.
Practitioners board.That's exactly right.The practitioner, Yeah, I was just going to say the practitioners boards still are in charge of their areas, but they lean heavily on this group for support because it's a group that encompasses that, you know, Australia and New Zealand, Yeah, carry on I.
Was going to say it's a it's a big shift to move away from just that probably a little bit unfair reputation of the the fun police the boards as the fun police, the guys who check up on us and and I know and we can talk about that.I talked about it previously with with Kate and Mags when we talked about the the role of the boards and what they do.
But there's definitely that perception sometimes of Oh well we pay this fee towards this body that's meant to be for us but they they kind of ought to get us, which is an unfair thing.But again to is that the goal to move away from that perception to going well, no, we regulate but it's for your own good because again, if it's not regulated then where's the standard?
How can you proudly say I am part of this profession if there's no guidelines that you have to play within to to uphold the the standards of the profession.But then again moving away from just that to say and also here are all these other ways we know that it's a tough job.
Here are ways that we think we can support you.Is that the goal?Yeah, that is the goal.And I think that from a big picture perspective, those boards have really focused on the individual.So making sure the vet school produced quality individual veterinarians, making sure the individual registered veterinarian was upheld, you know, upheld the standard, making sure that somebody who's wants to register as a specialist is of an up standard.
And the swing is to look more at the not at the visual but at the whole industry and to try and put in some supports for the entire industry not the individual.So if you that's quite a significant shift because the industry involves lots of team and the teams are not just individuals, they're nurses, support staff, you know receptionist obviously management in a clinical setting.
So to to to pivot that perspective has been yeah quite a a different approach and then I think the the vet boards haven't been very good at selling their this if you like explaining what they they do they've been kind of hidden and so this is an opportunity to talk more and engage with the profession.
Right.So is the education piece, does that fall under the Sustainable Practice Committee the, the way that we're going to do, That's part of your job.That's why you.Yeah.Well, give us a bit of a list.What does the Sustainable Practice Committee do?
And then we can focus back on we can swing back to education.So it looked at, there was a well, The thing is what doesn't it do is that it's actually got a really wide remit.But to narrow it down, we thought we'd focus on some of the key issues, which are veterinarians are very worried about complaints and we know that numbers of complaints against individual vets are increasing in all jurisdiction.
So we've done a review about why that might be happening.We've actually got some data about that done to some training with the boards to help them reflect on are their processes the best and are they supporting the veterinarian as well as holding out the standards as well as maintaining those standards.
And the other side of that argument is do vets understand why complaints are important and that there is a process which should be fair to go through that.So that's one role we're very much interested in education, because if continued development is not fit for purpose, then I think we lose people from our profession.
There's a big piece to play in getting vet nurses regulated.W Australia is the only jurisdiction that actually regulates vet nurses, and by that, that means there's a register and everyone who's a vet nurse must be on the register to call themselves a vet nurse In no other jurisdiction.
New Zealand, including in the rest of Australia, is that the case?So that means if you think about it that you can be a vet nurse with no qualifications and training.Now most vet nurses are qualified and trained and we need to protect them and that standard and also help them be held to account for that standard and that will support the veterinary team.
So trying to get some uniformity about recognizing and protecting that important part of our team is, is really important.We've done some projects on impairment, understanding impairment in practice either through alcohol or substance abuse or through mental health issues and allowing the boards to recognize a more humane approach to dealing with impairment.
So that's been quite a good project and we've got some more work to do around collecting data across the profession and potentially trying to unify how the profession works across Australia and New Zealand with so many different territories.
So it is a large remit and that there is a lot of work to be done.It is a lot of stuff.You talk about those things.I'm sitting here going, wow, that's how many hundreds of people do you have with the team to make this happen today?Yeah, isn't that the great?
Isn't that the great joke?We have a really engaged committee of about seven, I think.Yeah.And the AVBC runs on a very slim budget with fabulous staff, but but only a couple of staff allocated to it.
And of course we can lean on the veterinary boards.But yeah, in a jurisdiction like the UK, they have 70 or 80 people working on, on that.Well, we've got a handful.Well, I did actually engage with it.My very first contact point for working in Australia was the AVBC when you said the name.
Now I suddenly got this vision of the logo on a letterhead that said yes, we've approved your qualifications so you can come and work in Australia.That's fine.So my first thing, my first engagement, was really positive because they said yes.Fabulous.Zoe, the education piece, So obviously it's a big part of your personal life.
It has been of your career and then you've got your own team that you want to educate.But then, within the role of the Sustainable Practice Committee, what's happening with continuing education?Or what are the plans or what are your visions or hope for it?Yeah.So if you look and think about what we've all done for CPD, continuing professional development in most jurisdictions, in pretty much all of them in Australia and New Zealand, you've got a sort of ticker box When you apply again to be registered, you say what you've done in terms of learning and often it's hours or points and often it just really reflects technical skills like I went to a conference for this many hours as we talked earlier, that's not the way to keep people engaged.
Well conferences can be great, learning can be great, but we need to focus on individuals needs and and you learn differently to make you.You might read a book and have a concept and be able to integrate that really quickly.Whereas I might take you know many many hours of coaching to understand that concept.
So having that kind of blanket approach isn't helpful.And the other point is there was no way to really capture non-technical skills.These are our interpersonal skills.The way we skills about learning to communicate, learning to have situational awareness, read the room, how we make decisions, leadership.
But they weren't captured in the traditional CPD framework.So our project looks at first of all making a bit of a more flexible approach.The goal is to remove points that you don't need, 20 points that you in your career decide how you need to learn and why you need to learn and that you can reflect on and improve on that.
And the second aim is that really if we're going to get engaged people, they need to focus on their non-technical skills.And to me that is the passion of building a high performing team.Now that might be a clinical team that might be you and a couple of nurses and your practice manager or it might be that you're in a big team, you're in a corporate practice that has many vets and many nurses and had much more administrative support.
But how does that team function in a way that's going to be high performance?It could be that you're in a university environment, you're an academic or that you're having some training.And the way there's a lot of evidence to show that in human medicine, high performing teams don't make mistakes.
So I am interested in this concept to both improve culture, inventory practice and this comes through to feeding into better working conditions, better hours, having positive and healthy conflict.That is you and I can have a discussion about something that's worrying me and and you're not offended by it and then we can actually work through the issue and get to a solution.
So that kind of into personal skill, but how does that improve the performance of the team, of the team as a whole?And why this is important for the regulator is that if we have better performing teams, they can find where mistakes are going to happen.
Perhaps nip those mistakes in the bud, right, and or maybe deal with those complaints in a humane way so the owners feel heard and that that there might be a change in practice and that might lead to less complaints for the regulator.But you're also going to have a much more healthy team that can support each other.
So that's the aim.It's not just about complaints, but the documentation from human medicine is the better technical, non-technical skills that teams have, the better their technical performance and the better outcome for patient safety, but also for culture and engagement in the workplace.
So that's the goal.How do we transition some of those ideas across the profession in a way that's fairly easy, simple and not very expensive?I love the concept like to make so much sense what you're saying.I'm so used to points to CBD points as being the measure because you've got to measure it as a regulator, you've got to regulate how or do you not have to measure how as a regulating body?
Would you then say, OK, well yes, that's evidence of you attempting some degree of personal and professional growth.So if we say that you need a certain number of points to go to a conference, I have no idea whether you turn up or not.You could just go to the bar.
I have no way of knowing what you learned from that conference, and I have no way of knowing whether that's going to improve your performance.So it's a bit of a radical shift to give up points.But if we ask about the outcome, what is it really, You know, what is the outcome?
How do we measure that anyway?Now, humans, you know, clients will always make complaints, right to the regulator or to the practice.And that is, although it's tough, that's very a natural part of the human interaction.So I guess one way to measure it might be to say that there are less complaints, or maybe individual practices are able to handle that conflict and both parties feel that it was resolved, satisfied to a satisfactory way.
Maybe the measure is that there are the veterinary regulators are finding less practitioners that are, you know, lacking in incompetence if you like.But but I don't actually think that's, that's the point.
I think that's kind of part of the measure.But I also see a measure as a veterinarian that says, hey, I'm engaged with my team and I'm supported and there's going to be some rocky times, but I know that we can get through it.Or maybe they'll look at their team and think, this isn't the time for me.
I'm going to move to a better workplace where some of these cultural ideas are embedded and I feel more supported.So maybe we could measure it through a drop in attrition because we lose a lot of veterinarians in the first five years after graduation.
So maybe if they have some of the skills to deal with it, and the team has skills to deal with it too, Maybe that's one measure.But sometimes it's really hard to determine what an objective measure is going to be when you're talking about quality improvement.
So what do you think?Well, I was going to ask is this a a new concept or are there other industries like the human Med guys or other countries, the veterinary boards who haven't approached more like this, like is there, is there an example that we can follow?
In human medicine, in several professions, they've looked at improving non-technical skills in teams and measured how that improves outcome.And that's there's good clear evidence in the operating room that in the emergency rooms operating suite, in the emergency room, in midwifery and in anaesthetics that improving the non-technical skill cohort of the team means that the patient outcome is better.
So less deaths.OK, And if you're interested, I can send you a couple of references about this.I've measured it in Japan in one study of about 70 deaths, about half of them were because the team wasn't performing well, so non-technical skills errors caused the death.
In veterinary medicine, there's not as much knowledge.There's a couple of research papers out of the UK that show from a medical indemnity perspective that a lot of error is actually made because of non-technical skills failure.So the team wasn't working well, communication within the team or decision making within the team.
There are issues like fatigue.Now the pin up industries for this work is actually the airline industry which went to this set of skills using non-technical skills after a couple of horrific crashes in the 70s and 80s.That is called an ultra safe industry and they use checklists and have less of a hierarchy and we inherently know this, don't we?
When we sit on a plane and the the pilot says cabin crew cross check if the cabin crew outside don't affirm that the plane doesn't take off, right.So we know that any one of those cabin crew can stop the the plane taking off.So that's quite a significant change in the balance of that hierarchy where in the 70s the pilot was always right, OK.
And the other area is rail, ultra safe rail.Rail is an ultra safe industry where there's not many accidents.So there is lots of evidence to you that embedding non-technical skills training makes better performing teams and it's it's coming into the medical field but less so in veterinary medicine.
But interestingly you know, not reinventing the wheel, a whole bunch of countries are looking at this all at once and there's just not a lot published yet.The UK is certainly advancing in this in this area, so it'll be good to watch that space.
New Zealand's got rid of the points requirement for their graduates two or three years ago, but haven't actively mapped.You know what that means Just because of COVID, it made such a big impact that they decided not to kind of test how that was working because they're vets are already under stress in the COVID environment.
You asked me what do I think and it's it's challenging because you can't get rid of the the need for technical improvement.IA 100 percent, 100% agree with the non-technical stuff and certainly my own life again in the second-half, the 2nd decade of my career I started looking at that stuff and I wish I'd done it and the 1st 10 would have made my own life so much happier and and more productive.
But as as at the same time I'm learning technical stuff that changes the way I practice for the benefit of my patients.There are things that I did 10 years ago that I that I cringe and I go oh shit can't believe we did that just as information as we get new information.
So I mean certainly surely that still needs to be something you need and I and again you said right at the beginning you can never know everything.So that's fine, I'm I go easier than myself if I don't know something.But I said this to somebody else the other day.My goal is just to suck a little bit less every day, never expecting that I'm gonna know it all but just a little bit less incomplete than I was the day before.
And that is both aspects.So without the point, without some way of testing it or checking it, I I just struggle to see how.How do you encourage that without forcing it, without it?Because you're dead right?This current system, it's very easy to cheat the system, right To go.
You know, I've read, I've read an article, tick the box, tick the box, tick the box.So yeah, have you got any other ideas for that aspect?I'm I'm wondering about an assessment whether it's a self-assessment or maybe an assessment that you hand in every year which will take a bit of work and people will resist it because we'll go.
But actually I have to sit down or keep a record of saying well these are the things I've learned this year not so much worry about how I learned it but and both technical and non-technical.I've read this book or I subscribe to this thing, or I watch this thing and then maybe outside of you of a review from your boss or a Co worker or a client or something to say as you say instead of waiting for the for the red mark which is the complaint.
And to be fair, the complaints probably don't match the number of things that we do wrong.Like, if I had to have an official complaint every time I made a mistake, I'd have a long, long list of I would have given you a lot of paperwork at the Red Board.You're so right, and a complaint is not does never define us.
And goodness me, I make dozens of mistakes every day.And the older I get, the more I'm willing to share those mistakes and learn with my peers, which is very humbling.You know, specialists are supposed to be at the top of their tree and don't make mistakes.Well that's rubbish because everybody makes mistakes.
And you're absolutely right.This is not at the expense. non-technical skills training is not at the expense of technical skills training.So what?I understand that it's important to hang on to what we know and that, you know, an hour of training is an hour of training.No one can take that away.
But let's talk about quality.And you've come to the answer yourself, which is how do you review what you did?And that can be quite challenging.But if we start thinking about what we do and what we learn and how beneficial that was to us or not, then that helps us just decide what form of learning we want to do.
So my aim is that you have an engaged practitioner, but I don't want to describe what that engagement looks like.That's for you to decide and look.Technical skills learning is really fun.It's like me learning to swim because I can gauge my improvement.
And it might be that you're doing more of a certain procedure, you're taking more blood pressure readings, you're doing more cruciate repairs, you know?And that's something that's very easy to to map.And we know that as people, it's humans.It's inherently important to benchmark our improvement.
My aim is that we look at the whole person, which is my well-being, how I'm feeling, how I learned.But also the next step up is that we look at our team and my performance in the team means how does my behaviour affect that nurse or affect that colleague?
And can I modify my behaviour to get more out of them or can I say to them, do you know what I need to know how to give you feedback?You tell me the way that you'll take that feedback, because if I am barking at you in a way that makes you go to ground and hide under the table, that team's not going to be effective.
If I can foster a level of trust within my team where anyone, the most junior nurse can say Zoe, I'm actually worried about this.I think you should stop time out.That's a bit like the air Hostess isn't that calling out the pilot?So to get to that, there's no way you can get to that level of high performance without creating trust in the team.
And trust comes from building those non-technical skills, the ability to communicate, to give each other feedback in a non judge mental way to learn.So it is a really complex concept, but if you think about people that have had a really happy and successful career, they're probably quite good at this stuff inherently.
And I think the goal for Sustainable Practice Committee is how do we share some of this knowledge in a way that's easy that allows the registry boards to provide a scaffold of educational support so that you and I can take this back to our team.
And so if the goal is how you measure it, it's hard, but I think that we would see improvements in team culture.People would be more engaged with their profession.You might have less attrition and you might have, you know, one mark might be people stay in jobs longer, you know, or maybe they leave the poor jobs and and it's easier to attract people to a, you know, a really culturally successful practice.
Not all things are right for all people and it is hard to measure, so it's hard to get your head around that.Is there anything that you haven't mentioned yet?Maybe some practical tips or things that you've learned from the microcosm of this in your own team, because you you have run teams and you can run a team at the moment, or you're part of the leadership team in terms of institution and then measuring these things, have you got a system in place that you think works?
Oh, a lot of things.So this is jumping into Zoe the practice owner away from Sustainable Practice Committee.But there's lots of things that I have learned.I learned all the learn all the time and what not to do.But I have found a couple of resources which I can share with you, which is the Anaesthetic and non-technical skills training books from University of Aberdeen.
And this is within Anaesthetic specialist training for people.They have a list of a checklist of questions and they show what's good behaviour and what's bad behaviour.And when I say that I don't mean in any judge mental individual way.So but there's some questions around situational awareness.
When you walk into the room, are you able to see that there's some tension over there and that that that that group over there is happy.But there's, you know, this group's quiet and there's clearly some tension and maybe something's going wrong that's reading the room.So it gives you a bit of a a set of questions to ask whether you can see that or not.
And I found that really helpful when talking to employees because I'm not saying, oh, goodness me, employee X, you're just hopeless.You know, You just don't get it.I'm saying when you walk into the room, sometimes you miss some of the key situational elements that are happening.
So here's some skills that you can do to pause when you walk into the room because situational awareness is so important.Decision making.Are you able to make a rapid decision?Are you able to take feedback or do you stick to your plan and not change it.So this anaesthetic tool which I'll share with you I think is applicable to any situation in life, but particularly veterinary practice allows bosses and employees to look at the set of questions and you can kind of self mark, yeah I do that or know I could improve here.
One of them in our practice that a lot of our team has identified they could improve in as assertiveness, which means that they are potentially junior and we want them to be able to call out, hey, I'm uncomfortable, well, I I want this reassessed or can we stop?
And they have indicated sometimes they feel challenged by that.They don't want to say to the specialist, hey, stop, I'm uncomfortable, well, why not?So if you can get everybody to that level of comfort, as I said, you'll have more performance.Now, calling a time out doesn't mean anyone's doing anything wrong, but we know that from human medicine, that tends to stop a mistake, but it also has the benefit of improving that interpersonal relationship, you know, building that trust.
So I think that there are some really good skills and tools out there and that's one of the goals that we've got is to try and develop or find a set of tools that we could share with everybody through AVBC to help that performance.
I like that a lot.I do still feel like some of it, and I'll tell you why in a second, but it has to be a requirement because I know as somebody who's worked as an employee of A three different continents and probably 20-30 different practices and from speaking to people to this day, that sometimes the people who most need to learn that is the person who's in charge of the practice.
You talk about the tension in the room, Can you read the tension in the room?There's enough places where the person who's supposed to be the influence in this is the reason for the tension in the room.And do not take feedback well that you would not take it well.If somebody says I'm out I'm not happy with you see the the because of the it's called it cottage industry nature or family business nature of a lot of veterinary practice.
I don't think that sort of stuff happens in a in a large practice or in a corporate and more people have a negative connectation with corporate.What I've learned at least with the bigger groups is they regulate that sort of stuff whereas if it's the one man show well let's say the the boss with his team.I've certainly worked in practices where I would love to be able to say to the boss, yeah, there's this training that you have to do.
And that's comes to part of the high performance team.I like the Patrick Lencioni model which is first of all build trust.Then the second layer is be able to have conflicts which means that we can question each other without fear.The next layer is accountability, which is that I have to be accountable for my actions and you have to be accountable for your actions.
Now the status there, whether you're the boss or I'm the boss, doesn't matter.So in any high performance arena that the every individual has to be accountable.So you're right.If you are not accountable, then the whole thing falls apart.
So how does the regulator make people accountable?Yeah, that's the trick, isn't it, 'cause we don't want the big brothering into the individual practice and we have to, I think we have to take some responsibility as professionals for that accountability.But Gee, you maybe that's moving.
I mean if you're in a a practice that is very old fashioned or or small minded and you're you're thinking this is is not working for me, you vote with your feet because there are great workplaces out there.So you know it could be that degree of accountability.
You and I've probably mentored new graduates and I would say if anyone's in a workplace that's not working for them, if you can't have a mature conversation and try and sort it out, get out of there.So there's no way that the regulator can fix individual practices, or indeed that anyone can, because it's up to them to be accountable for that.
But that's the great gift, isn't it?And we know that you're much more likely to keep good stuff if you can offer them an environment where they can be safe and thrive through dealing with some of these issues.And if you, as the boss, are able to learn, gosh, I love it when younger people, you know, whoever they are in the practice, come to me and go, hey, I've got this great idea.
Yeah, always.I I think you're right actually as you were speaking that is the conclusion.It's not for an outside body to to set repercussions and accountability.I think the, and that's the great gift of this period we've gone through in our profession of a high demand is the accountability and the repercussions And the report card that you're going to get as a practice owner or as a practitioner or anybody who does not engage in this sort of personal growth and team growth is that you'll wake up and go, why?
Why can't I find anybody, why can't I employ anybody?Why?And those businesses will shut because the guys who do it well will get all this stuff and the others will will not.And it sounds mean, but I think that it will be a question of learn and adapt or get out.
Which is that cycle back, isn't it?That's that reflect, that's that reflective capacity that we all wanna have with every decision we make.OK, great.So the other thing that you mentioned, Zoe, was the nurse not regulation of the veteran nurses within the profession that the Washington does and nobody else does.
Why is that important to you and to us as a profession?For a couple of reasons, the regulator currently only can focus on the individual veterinarian and individual veterinarians don't make mistakes.Actually teams make mistakes and individuals make mistakes.
In the context of their team, of their support and the processes, it might be that they were overworked, it might be that there was a poor communication.You know, all of those team based factors I was talking about South regulating vet nurses actually makes them part of our veterinary team if they're unregulated.
Still the weight of the entire decision making falls on an individual.Now I think that should fall across the team, but not in a punitive way.If you regulate and benchmark nurses, that means there's a standard and that will improve their identity.
They will be prouder to be associated because they'll be, you know, a barrier to get in and then they'll have to maintain their continuing education and their identity within that profession, much like human nurses, you know.And then that will lead to more responsibility and regulatory authorities, you know or various parts of the legislative framework giving them more responsibility, having more accountability and all that will do is improve our veterinary team.
So we are very backwards in this in this regard and it's A and we've ended up sort of here accidentally because a lot of veterinary legislation is quite old and didn't recognize veterinary nurses.But you know 30 years on we've had a standard qualification for 20 or 30 years to become a veterinary nurse.
And then we also need to offer these talented people a career path.So we can do that if we have a base qualification and then there are additional steps that they can rise through that career should they choose.They might be choose to do a masters or a diploma or further training, then that helps to retain that talent and knowledge and skill set within our profession and it's only going to improve our profession.
So I think the public would be appalled if they realized that there was no regulation and that anyone could call themselves a vary nurse at this point, which is what can happen in many places if you don't have you know, you don't have to declare your skills or your training.
So it's a bit of a step and there's always a little bit of fear.Well, let's we don't want to leave those behind.You know those people that are working for 20 years and maybe don't have a cert for or don't have a nursing qualification and I understand that and we've got a plan to incorporate those people.
But going forward, as our clinical lives get more complicated, it's really important that we are able to set the minimum standard for veterinary nurses and to make them part of our team.Yeah, when you describe it like that, it sounds sounds like, duh, that's really obvious.
Why?Why is it not the way?I saw a discussion the other day online about exactly that, about a vet saying why is it that I am responsible for things that go wrong that I actually, yes, I've got an overseeing role supposed to.I think that's the theory.
While you're supposed to check that things get done right.But then things happen that is not directly in your control and we're still liable and responsible, which I think is is probably part of the reason why some people go and that's that's too much for me, I'm out.And then again, that engagement of the nurses of going well, I am a valid, recognized, regulated part of the team.
I'm not just the support person.So yeah, cool.It's a really good idea.What's the what's the time frame on these things for Australia, Zoe?To both the educational, the changes in the in the continuing education and then the nurse regulation.Do we know?Yeah, there's a lot of the some of the states are moving already for improving CPD and adapting some of the New Zealand elements, which is the plan and reflect and looking more at your personal non-technical skills.
So that's great.We hope to have a bigger framework that looks at team performance out by the end of the year And then what I think will happen slowly is that as we can engage some states, boards are really engaged and want to change and as we convince them and help them then that will spread out sort of slowly.
The nurses is a little bit more complicated.One way is to change all of the States and territories regulations which requires acts of parliament and that's quite challenging.So we're looking at whether we can enact change by a couple of different mechanisms where we have a a national body that registers vet nurses and we've worked very closely with the Vet Nurse Council of Australia and Avnet their Veteran nurse Technician qualification to see if we can do it like that.
And then as legislation can be changed, which is a much slower process than that can be adopted.W Australian nurses love being regulated.They all get a badge, they're very protective of that.You can't come into this jurisdiction and start working unless you can prove that you're a nurse.
So a lot of nurses in other states are a bit fearful, but there's about 1800 registered veterinary nurses in WA and they're very proud of that and they're all called registered Vet nurse RVN after every time I use their name, it's RVN.So they take a great joy in promoting that identity.
Hopefully we'll we'll see change across both of these platforms, all these ideas, you know, in the next 12 to 18 months.But it'll probably be incremental hue people might not notice enough or a big change, which is good, right?That's the way to make change happen is little.Small steps bring everyone along.
Is there?Well, first of all, that's what it's like in the UK, isn't it?Do they have a similar system with their nurses or yeah, I don't Remember Remember from my time there.Very much so.They're regulated.They've been regulated for many years.Yeah.Yeah.Is there anything else we need to talk about or that you'd like to talk about about what's changing, what's happening, the work you're doing or how people can get involved and help out in this If they're listening to this going, Oh yeah, I'm, I'm excited about this.
I want to have a hand in it.Oh, I'd love to hear from people that are really interested in getting involved.So I guess always get feedback in about what we're doing and then get people's ideas.You know, we're surrounded by really brilliant minds in this profession.
So definitely I'd love to hear about individual perspectives and that can help us modify and improve.There's always lots of little projects that if people have some time to spare and are really passionate, we can talk about a project that they might be able to contribute to.
So which is which is great.And it's great to get the perspective away from the board because I work with boards and they have sometimes a very fixed perspective.So it's nice to get input from the profession.I think my other point is that we are such a marvelous profession.
We don't sell our skills and our opportunities very well.We get this broad based problem solving degree and it really gives us so much opportunity not just clinically but in a wealth of different areas and what an exciting place to be.
I'd like to take a bit of time just to celebrate the diversity of veterinary careers and it's very much the clinical career is the pin up, but look at the work you're doing here, Broadcaster, you know, educator.There's a lot of ways that we can celebrate and engage in our profession that will give us a sense of pride and also feedback into that personal engagement.
And if you, a good friend of mine, Rick Reid, who's the veterinary surgeon, told me that you only need to really spend 20% of your time filling your cup.So my what I say to people now is if if you've got a veterinary career and you'd be unhappy about where it's going, ask yourself what skills or activities fill your cup and how can you engineer your career so that you have at least 20% of your time doing that?
One of the things that fills my cup is this kind of work on sustainable practice committee.So if we all reflect on our career and think how do we massage our career to allow that to happen, then I think we've got the most amazing opportunity to have a long and interesting career in this profession and impact a lot of people.
Yeah that's the the gift I've received through doing this podcast and and again I would call myself slightly disengaged for a long part of my career where I actively went, OK, there's work and then there's life and I don't like the two to to crush too much And then it's starting to do this.
Exactly that talking to all these incredible people, getting to meet all these incredible people.I always joke, I say I I've always fall, fall in love a little bit with the best I'm interviewing and fall in love with the profession more because just go.I always just go, Wow, there's something else I never even considered or a different way of thinking or somebody doing something outside of their clinical career or amazing things within their clinical career, whether it's brain surgery, whether it's government work, it's it's incredible, it is inspiring And I do encourage, I I I think we're kind of preaching to the converted.
If you're listening to a veterinary podcast, that probably means that you are engaging with veterinary stuff outside of just your day job.But encourage the others to get involved in some sort of a way, because it it really does help and it's often the people who I think need it the most.The ones who have that I shouldn't have studied vets, I should have become an accountant.
Or you you met the ones you know the ones who have an issue with a career who who then disengage.And that is shooting yourself in the foot because you're not discovering the gifts that there are to discover.Have you have you in any any other message from the boards?I know the the poor boards are often distant, discussed in in in negative ways and I and I know they do important works.
Anything else That as the representative of the boards you'd like to say to people?Yeah.Well, I think that's a salient point to end.You know on.They are there to protect the public and the profession and it's nice to just get a different perspective on the work of the boards.
So yeah it's it's easy to kind of pick on them but engage with them if you're if you're unhappy, reach out and and have a chat and try and work out how how you can solve you, you know your issues with them.I know that Kate Clark, Rimmel complaints area is passionate about, you know, proactively engage with the boards.
If you if you ever get a complaint, reach out early and engage with them.They're there to help you manage your way through that.But yeah, the the, the work of the boards is is quite big picture and I think that, yeah, it's important to kind of keep that in mind that there's a lot of other important work that they do besides complaints.
So I think, yeah, that that's probably the message there.You know, there's there's a lot of ways to get involved.Great.So let's get a little bit more personal to wrap up.Are you a podcast listener?Yeah.What's on?Your I am not.
You're not.A podcast.Not a very good one.I tell you why, Hugh, My life is so full at the moment.It's on my the top of my bucket list.You know when you think you've got a list of podcasts you want to listen to?And I think I want if I could get those earplugs that could do podcasting in the pool, that might be good.
I was done.I was going to suggest that that could be a a good way, a good place to listen.Yeah, exactly.Maybe that could be my Christmas wish list.That and it's great way to drown out the get some noise cancelling ones.
A great way to drown out the background noise of kids when I'm doing the dishes or some sort of mindless activity that I don't really feel like listening, mowing the lawn, doing the dishes, all those sort of things.Great way for me to zone out and and grow, do well, do exactly the sort of stuff that we're talking about here.
OK.Well, if you don't listen, then what are you reading or what have you read in the last, let's say, year or so that has changed the way that you think that you'd like us to, to get on our bedside table?Yeah, I think this this is an easy read and it's from the kind of management E field.
So it's not fiction, but it's Patrick Lencioni.LENCIONI, he's a fabulous communicator and he wrote The Five Dysfunctions of a Team and that really changed my life and changed my management Scott style.So he's got the The Pyramid that talks about trust, conflict, accountability, performance and results or commitment and results.
So you don't need to read the whole book, but it's a very easy read.He writes in fables, so he writes kind of modern management stories and the the lessons are in the the stories, and they're filled with great characters.But I found that once I engaged with that process of teamwork, it helps my marriage be frank.
It helps my work relationships, and we get all of our senior people and indeed anyone who's interested in the team to read that, so that we've got a kind of shared language of understanding and that nothing is taboo.You're allowed to bring up any any subject well worth it. 5 Dysfunctions of Teams.
That's good.And you're right, A a relationship or a marriage is a is a team of sorts.It can definitely be, absolutely.It's one that needs work all the time, doesn't it?Yeah.All right.I'll pass along question where I question from a previous guest.
For my current guest, the question that I got for you was what is something that you believe to be true that nearly everyone else disagrees with you?Do you know?I can't.I can't answer that.I'm a consensus person, so if everybody else disagrees, I would have to sit down and look at their opinion before I held steadfast to mine.
So I was trying to think about this like, what would I believe in the face of everyone else's disagreement?Found it really hard because I'd.I'm not sure I'm that dogmatic.So I'd sit down and have a a listen to them and maybe look at some of their opinions and kind of come back and reassess my view.
And you know, I was trying to think of a situation where I steadfastly held to my view and I I couldn't.So maybe that means I'm just very easily swayable.Hugh.It is a tough question.I I did.I heard the question and thought of it for myself and I'm not sure that I've got a clear cut answer either.
OK, so I can shelve that one and I can use it again see if anybody else answers it.But I do still need a question from you for my next guest, please.So a question that I would have is what would you today do differently from you 10 years ago?Second one, that's a very good one.
And then finally, you have a couple of minutes to speak to all of the veterinary new grants of 2023, and you want to give them one little bit of wisdom or advice.What does Zoe tell them?Don't be a perfectionist.Perfectionism is not a trait that is helpful to anyone.
So I would say, much like I think we've been talking about, be kind to yourself and find a great mentor or boss that can help you.Maybe it's not your boss, but someone that can help you reflect on what went well and what didn't go well, because we learned the most from what didn't go well.
But your failures don't define you, and your career shouldn't define you, but it should fill you with joy.So I think a lot of that is starting with not being a perfectionist.You know, we we all make mistakes.And if you don't make mistakes, there's something wrong.
You're making them and you're not admitting to them.So that's what I'd say.Very relevant to our profession.I think it's quite a lot of people who would class themselves as perfectionists.I read something else the other day that I really liked.That said, as it at its root, perfection isn't really about a deep love for being meticulous.
It's about fear.Fear of making a mistake, fear of disappointing others, fear of failure, and fear of success.So I love your one message.All right, Zoe, thank you so, so much for your time and for being as busy as you are doing all of these important things and for sharing your thoughts on it.
Big changes for the profession.It's a bit.It's a time of change for the profession and really positive.And it's lovely to hear the sort of stuff that's happening behind the scenes and people are willing to engage with it like yourself, enough to make a difference for all of the rest of us.Thanks to you.It's been great to meet you in person, so to speak.
Almost it in the flesh, but not not in the flesh yet.Maybe one day before you disappear, just a quick reminder about our new Specialist support space.We've created a space where you can chat to a Specialist about those frustrating cases where you can't refer or It's not quite a referral case, but you just need a little bit of extra brand power or experience to help get you over that hump.
You can download files and images like X-rays or videos, and you can even jump on a live chat if the case requires it.I'm actually personally quite enjoying using the space to help me unpack cases after the fact where things maybe didn't go according to plan.It is a paid space so that our specialists get compensated for their time, which has the added benefit that you no longer have to feel guilty about asking for free advice.
But we've tried to keep it widely accessible by pricing it at around $15.00 a month, which lets you ask as many questions as you want.Check out the details and the TNCS by clicking the link for the space in the episode show description and go give it a try.

Dr Zoe Lenard