Dec. 7, 2023

108: Married To The Vet Profession: Advice From (And For) Our Significant Others. With Regina Carey

108: Married To The Vet Profession: Advice From (And For) Our Significant Others. With Regina Carey
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Season 1

Regina Carey is a coach, public speaker and special educator who works to help drive change within the veterinary and human healthcare professions. But in this interview we focus on another aspect of her life: she’s married to a veterinarian, and therefore, by default, married to the veterinary profession. 

In this episode we explore what’s that like to be the significant other in the life of a vet, what it takes to support a vet career, and what our partners want us to know. Regina gives us the solution to making space in a relationship for two careers, especially when one of the careers can be particularly time and commitment hungry!

We also pick Regina’s coach brain with topics like invisible disabilities, the not-so obvious things that get in the way of becoming the best version of ourselves, like excessive competitiveness, the consequences of the language we use with ourselves, and how to draw a hard line with aggressive clients. But first, we start with a veterinary love story…

 

You can find Regina at her website, Queen Of Action and on LinkedIn.

 

Topic List:

04:22 Regina's experience being married to a vet.

12:53 You don't need to sacrifice everything to be a vet.

16:31 Making space for two careers in a relationship.

24:09 Regina's career before she delved into vet stuff.

28:15 Coaching people with invisible disabilities.

35:24 The link between competitiveness and a lack of self esteem.

40:08 Why are supportive relationships vital in the vet industry?

46:18 Holding space for a relationship or your partner as a vet.

48:15 How do you find the support systems?

51:48 How to disallow disrespect without being rude.

58:46 Regina's advice for the significant others of a vet.

62:25 Things that makes the vet industry uniquely challenging to a coach.

65:18 "How do you solve the gap between vets wanting more money for less work?"

70:27 Regina's favourite podcasts.

71:38 Regina's advice to new grad vets.

 

Join our community of Vet Vault Nerds to lift your clinical game and get your groove back with our up-to-date, easy-to-consume clinical episodes at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠vvn.supercast.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Get help with your cases in our ⁠Specialist Support Space.⁠

V⁠⁠isit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠thevetvault.com⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠for show notes and resources related to this episode.

Connect with us through our online ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Vet Vault Networ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠k for episode highlights, clinical resources, discussions, questions and support.

Subscribe to our weekly newsletter ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠ for Hubert's favourite clinical and non-clinical learnings from the week.

 

Regina's podcast recommendations.

We can do hard things with Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach

The Hidden Brain an NPR podcast

Burnout by the Nagoski Sisters

There's a group of people associated with our profession who we've never discussed on this podcast, which is weird because we've talked about a lot of people from a lot of backgrounds.But this group is probably the most important.They're the ones who support us, listen to us, whine, put up with our shit, believe in us, see us at our worst, and help us to be our best.
They're the ones who love us.No, I'm not talking about your parents, although I've just realized that we should do an episode with the parents of it.But for this one I'm talking about, and we're talking to our life partners, our husbands or wives or girlfriends or de facto husbands or significant others or better halves or whatever you want to call them.
All the good stuff we talk about on this podcast and all of the bad stuff, they are the ones I believe that are affected most by it, and so far I've ignored them.Well, this changes today.Regina Carey is a leadership and personal coach and public speaker who educates and empowers those who are stuck, struggling, and ready for positive change.
She has a background in teaching and especially teaching those with disabilities, and increasingly a large part of her work is to help drive change within the veterinary and human health care professions through her programs and coaching.You can find her at all of the links in the show description, but for selfish purposes.
For the first half of this episode, she's someone who's married to a vet and therefore by default married to the vet profession.And in this conversation we ask, what's that like?What do the significant others of veterinarians want us to know?Regina gives us their solution to making space in the relationship for two careers, especially when one of the careers can be particularly time and commitment hungry.
But of course, I had to also utilize Regina's coaching brain.We take on topics like invisible disabilities, those non obvious things that get in the way of us becoming the best version of ourselves.My favorite one being competitiveness.Regina also discusses how we hobble ourselves with the language that we use, why clients are tougher on us than in other healthcare professions, what to do about it, and much much more.
But first, we start with a love story.But before we jump in, a big theme in this conversation is about support, giving it and getting it.And I would love to tell you about a new way that the Red Vault can support you.You already know about our clinical podcast that keeps you up to date with your knowledge and skills, which by the way, is now a race approved.
If you haven't heard of it, go check it out at vvn.supercast.com.But here's the thing, despite the fact that I personally make all of these episode, which means that I am more up to date with my clinical knowledge than I've ever been, I still have cases that stump me.Cases where I need just a little bit of wisdom from someone smarter than me, or some reassurance that my thinking is on the right track, or another input to help me get unstuck with my case.
So I've made exactly that.We now have in the Red Vault network, a space where you can ask our team of specialists your stickiest, trickiest case questions and get support from some of the most experienced, specialist minds available.Our app lets you upload files and images and videos, and you can even jump on a live chat if the case requires it.
It's a bad space so that our specialists get compensated for the time, so no more feeling guilty about asking for free advice.But we've tried to keep it as affordable as possible to make it widely accessible at around $15.00 a month, which lets you ask as many questions as you want.Check out the details and the TS and CS by clicking the link for this in the episode show description and go give it a try.
OK, let's jump in with Regina Carey.Welcome to the event Belton.Thank you so, so much for taking the time to chat to us.
It is so cool to be here.It's so cool to be here on a Thursday and talk to you on a Friday.Yeah, I know.Time travel.Yes, yes.So we usually kick this off with a question that often brings out some interesting stories.
So I I once saw a saying on the side of a building that said bad decisions lead to good stories.And I always I'm always curious, do my guests agree?And if so, do you have any examples that will demonstrate, corroborate, or refute that statement?
You know what is interesting, Hugh, is when I was thinking about some of the questions that you posed, I talked a lot to my husband about it.And we here's the thing, in my work that I do, I have no judgement on decisions on life.
There's not a good, bad, right, wrong.But you know what, Hugh?I'm sure there have been some really awful things in my teenage years, but in most of my adult life has been with my husband.We we met when we were 15 and 16, and we were talking about the decision that we made in this transition between internship and residency.
And just stick with me on this.We threw all of our eggs into the basket of we're going back to Wisconsin.We can't wait to get back to Wisconsin.We had our children's schools set up for when we came back the following year, I took a sabbatical from my work.
We had our faith community, our banking accounts, everything.We put all of our eggs into that basket knowing for sure he would get placed back in Wisconsin after our internship at Michigan State.
That was a poor decision because as you may know or have experienced, it's all unpredictable.I have this written up behind.It's unpredictable and it threw us into this loop of disappointment and regret and sadness that hung over us for years.
It took a really long time to embrace where we are now and have been for 23 years because of that one decision that we made having faith or, you know, deciding to just keep our life there because we were going back to it.
And that blew up.It didn't really happen.And the truth is, it's a great story.You know, it's a love story, it's a family story.And and it had a it's a roller coaster story.But here we are still in Michigan after 23 years, I never would have put myself here.
I am a sunshine, ocean, warm weather.And you might say, well, that's not Wisconsin.True.But I never thought I'd end up here, and here I am.So the decision wasn't bad, but it was the I want to make sure I understand this correctly.
It was the expectation around what the repercussions of the decision will look like, and then the stubborn lack of flexibility when that expectation wasn't met.Correct.We do that, don't we?Because every step along the way we discussed possible outcomes.
With this one, we simply chose to ignore.So I want to get us all in the picture of who you are and who you guys are as a unit and as a family.You said it was a love story.Start with a love story, tell us a love story and then we'll go through the career things because you're you're we're talking about this.
Just to give clarity, we're talking about this be as a partner, as a wife, as a support structure to a veterinarian.And your husband is a vet and we'll come to the insurance and outs of who he is and what he does.But let's start with the love story.You know, and and the the ironic part, and I think I can use irony correctly here, is that we met in Michigan and we were both camp counselors and 15 and 1615.
And yeah, and I cannot stand the outdoors.I don't camp.I never went to this camp.But I was going to be a teacher and I really wanted to go and be a counselor for a summer.And lo and behold, I met my husband and he was doing lifeguard duty.
And as I approached the beach to to to do my orientation as a counselor, he looked at me and he said, I have to go do the boat test.Would you hold my class ring?You know, class rings were a big thing back in the in the 80s.
And I said sure I didn't know him, you know.And when I took it, he said, you know what this means, don't you?And I said no, he said we're engaged and we kind of laughed it off.Well, we continued to be pen pals.He moved away right after that camp experience from Ohio to the East Coast to Boston, and we were pen pals.
And I went and visited him at Duke, where I might add he was going to become an orthopedic surgeon.I have no hard feelings about that, right?But I went down to visit him at Duke for spring break and we had only ever been pen pals and the minute we saw each other he got down on his knee and proposed.
So we were engaged before we ever dated and we've been together ever since.And so, 33 years later, here we.Are.That's very sweet.Whatever happened to what happens at camps?Days at camp.The cool thing is, each one of our children, we have three of them.
I have a child for every one of his degrees.All of our children have gone to that same camp.No worries.That's so cool.So the whole camp thing is is so foreign to me that I'm familiar with camp from all the movies I've seen about camp happening in the US, but it looks like such a cool.
Thing.Yeah, it's.And.And what was beautiful about that is that we are an interracial couple.And so when you are in a camp environment and it was an international camp, it's a YMCA camp, there were people from all over the world and we were immersed.
I mean, I was small town Ohio.I had one minority student in the entire high school in my town and going to camp and and being immersed, really marinating in culture and diversity, it was such a beautiful way to live.
Everybody was amazing.You know, there was, there was, you didn't see, you didn't see all the differences.You just were in it together.And it was such a loving experience and to be able to meet my husband in that atmosphere was really a blessing.
That's a very nice love story.Thank you.So.It's Fast forward.So he when you met, he was a lifeguard.So he was still in school, in high school.Oh yes.And then am I right?Or was he already out of school?OK, so you guys were kids when you met.And then you were you guys together as a couple or married or anything when he studied, when he went to vet school?
Oh, yes, yes.OK, so you went through the whole vet school experience?The.Married with a child.Oh, wow.Mm hmm.We were non, we were very non traditional and when we went to you know, we moved when he got into vet school, it was quite harsh because we moved from North Carolina to Wisconsin and at any given point they're 90° difference in temperature.
And as I might have mentioned earlier, I'm a warm weather girl and going to Wisconsin was these are sub zero temperatures we're talking about.But Madison, WI is beautiful and I fell in love with the state and I knew we were going to be there for four years.
I went with my husband to orientation and one of the first things that they said out loud after welcome is if you are starting vet school, married, the majority of you will graduate divorced And I'm sitting there with my newborn next to my I know and I looked at him and I said challenge accepted and we did.
I mean, vet school was amazing and it was a little bit stressful, but it was easily the most beautiful, simple time in our lives together.It was.It was easy.I want to come back to how it was easy for you guys, but that statement of if you start this marriage, you're going to be end up divorced.
That is such an epitomizes the problem that I see with so much of the culture around a profession that starts at vet school and I hope it's changing.I think it's changing, but that's that says it.It sums it up in one sentence.To say this career that you are signing up for, you will have to sacrifice everything for it.
Everything.Sacrifice your relationship.If you're not.It's the expectation from literally from day one, and I want to almost swear about it because how messed up is that?So messed up.And you know, luckily I'm somebody who you tell me I can't do something and I'll prove you wrong.So here we are.
I will tell you.I will tell you I the determination.First of all, I knew that if if we were going to make it, I had to be a part of it.And they had a wonderful I don't know how many vet schools have this, but they had something called the auxiliary group.And the auxiliary group was made-up of partners, spouses, significant others who came together and helped one another.
We had potlucks.We had meetings.We did picnics to get like we created that social structure and relied on one another and created friendships, you know, And that was really scary because this really started, you know, the the nomadic portion of our lives where we were moving all the time.
And you didn't really want to get close to people because you knew you were going to be leaving again.But that's how I I got involved right out of the gate.But, you know, vet school started at 8:00 in the morning, ended at 5:00.We had our whole system.
I'd drop our daughter off with him and he would ride with her on his back in a backpack, on his way home on the bus, and I would be on campus working.So our schedules danced.So before we dig into all of those things and what it meant and how you took those lessons through the rest of your relationship together and his career, let's just put us in the picture of his career journey.
So it was the veteran degree, and then did he work as a vet or went straight to the next degree or what does it look like?And and all the way to where we are now, just to let us understand what he does.We started with the DVM and then he decided you know and and let me say going into this, I signed up for four years of vet school and thought that we were going to go right out into career and that shifted.
So we have internship and that threw us out of Wisconsin, into Michigan and then residency which kept us right here where we are still.And then PhD.So he's got his DVMPHD and then that, that dim vac, right?
Diplomat, Diplomat of Internal Medicine.So he's a medicine specialist.Yes.Internal medicine.Small animal internal medicine, yeah.And still associated with the university.Does he lecture students or does he work in private practice?Or what does he do for a for a job?
What does he do for a job?He works for the university, he's faculty, and he does all of the things, research and teaching and clinics.And he still works too much, in my opinion.But that's a conversation for another time.
So you know, the, I think the reason I wanted to chat you today is there's a couple of main angles that I had on this conversation.And the one is probably what do the significant others of veterinarians want to know, what do they want from us and how do we give that?
But then also what are the things that we should ask for and how to ask nicely.But before we jump into that, there's there's something that often comes up and I've seen conversations around this a lot is you married to Yvette, you've got kids, three kids now and you're you're a supportive partner of a veterinarian but you're also no slouch yourself.
You have a career that you clearly care about and the question is often how do you make space in a relationship, especially with kids for two careers because often there are periods where one has to take preference over the other.How did you guys negotiate that?And I'll add that keeping in mind that that you guys are are the more traditional older school dynamic of my male partner is the vet and there's the wife who's not the vet.
But these days, it's literally mostly the opposite.Absolutely right.So you know, I understand that we are the exception.My husband was one of seven males in his class and it was 83% female and that in in and of itself in a in a heterosexual relationship, having my husband go into and 83% nobody wants their husband to go into an 83% female room.
That was a that was a challenge right out of the gate.You know here I'm coming right off of having a baby.So.So I taught my my background is in special education, and I was teaching in North Carolina.And I was, I was fortunate enough then to get my master's degree right before we left.
So I got my master's degree at in special education and went, took that right into Wisconsin and worked as a specialist for the university there for the athletic department.And what I was able to do, I mean the gift of having that degree allowed me to shape shift wherever we went.
I worked for universities.I've always been affiliated with universities at some level.I do not have my PhD nor will I ever, but I always affiliated with the university to do consulting work, teaching, working with students, working with other educators and so from the time we left and and started vet school.
So this is 27 years ago, my oldest is almost 27.I have pretty much been working out of my home and really, Hugh, that has been one of the bigger challenges because my stuff is everywhere.But I'm like the I'm like the, you know, the the crab with the shell.
Like I take it, I take it wherever we go.And I've taught and I've done consulting work and I've done private coaching.And what I realized just this past year is that I this thread that has run through my career has always been veterinary medicine.
And right now I I have my own company, which is called Carry On, and I work to keep strong people strong.I work with people with invisible disabilities and I help so many of the human and animal medicine people that I support have got learning disabilities, attention deficit disorder, chronic health issues, anxiety, depression and we know the pandemic really.
Leveled that stuff right up.And so one in four, Hugh, one in four.And I believe it's actually more have some invisible disability.So that's the work I do and it's flexible.That really has helped us do this dance of him being gone and me being able to do my work from anywhere.
Deep the vet stuff, and especially when you start talking internships and residences in that it can be quite a, I wanna say, selfish, but it's a demanding pursuit that requires some degree of selfishness.With your time, did you ever feel like that that your career was playing second fiddle to the vet thing?
Is that an issue?And I ask this because I I see this as what what typically happens and I'm married to a vet as well by the way.It's often the vet component because it is the classic male female mom, dad dynamic where the vet career starts playing second fiddle to the engineer or the whatever dad does.
Did you feel?That way or.Or not really.Was your flexibility your solution for it?I think my flexibility has always been my superpower.And I know and my husband would support me in saying this, that I kept us going.My work, my determination, my energy and enthusiasm, the ability to always be able to find work and make it work because I had mouths to feed.
You know, we we were during vet school here.We were actually on welfare for a while.The funny thing is I didn't even realize it.I thought, I thought this program was so great.Oh, we get cereal and milk and coupons for food.
And I hadn't.I wasn't.That's not how I was, you know, brought up.I had no idea.And the first time I had to go into a a visit to the office to make sure I was legit, I looked around the waiting room and realized, Oh my gosh, I'm on welfare.
But I have always been grateful that my work has been what it is.And the biggest discussion that we've had around our careers happened just during the pandemic.And because my husband has all those letters behind his name, I have been afraid to make more money than he makes.
Now he's in academia, and I don't know about you and where you are, but here the mantra for academia is do more with less.And he said to me, I am so sorry that you have felt like this all these years.
You go out, make as much money as you can, he told me.Ask for whatever you want and retire me, you know?He said those letters behind my name put me into a very specific lane in which I move and work.
And the letters behind your name open up doors that are so abundant and expansive.What you said there about academia, that certainly is my impression that that is global and academia is not gonna.It's not where you go to earn the big bucks for sure.
So hopefully it shouldn't be too much of a challenge to add to everything that's.Right, that's right.I'm very curious about your work, and it's interesting how you said that that thread of veterinary science has actually gone all throughout your life and your career.
So what did you do before?Because you do you do the vet support stuff in the vet coaching now, but who did you serve?Who were your clients before the vet thing became an actual job thing?Because it was always your work, but it wasn't necessarily your job and nobody paid you for doing it.Correct, correct.
And so I I did teach.I had I in at least in the states here the the career lifeline of a special Ed teacher is 3 1/2 years.So I taught students.I taught elementary and middle school for 3 1/2 years and I had the opportunity to get my masters.
So once in my masters work I was doing a lot.Now I'm going to date myself and say when I was pregnant with my first child.This is right before we went to vet school, the Internet was just coming out.
So you think about the amazing amount of information that we have learned in my professional life.It it's it blows my mind.I mean, I'm amazed at myself, at how much I've taught myself and how much I've had to learn over the course of the 30 years.
But the Internet was just coming out.I was, I was doing assistive technology.I was teaching teachers and then working with students in Wisconsin who were athletes with invisible disabilities and still involved in the vet community and and supporting students however I could, their families and what not.
And then when we came to Michigan State, I immediately got involved at at the university level to work with students and staff here at Michigan State University, those who have disabilities.
And I did that work for a very long time.And then that's when I began taking on coaching clients.And it's been, gosh, I mean it's been a very long career, but always working with people who are in sort of the next phase, living like the transition, transitioning from jobs to empty nest syndrome to, you know, just wanting.
I work with a lot of women going through divorce, too.So then what was the trigger?Because it sounds like you've always been involved in teaching.What was it a turning point where you went?Actually, I'm going to focus on supporting veterinarians as a big part of my role.
What made that tick for you to say?Well, this is, I've been doing it all my life.Anyway, let me make this a thing.I am.So we've been here 23 years.I've been asked every year by people at Michigan State to come in and be a part of orientation to talk to the students I work with.
Students who are pre vet who are I don't know if they have vet word bound, but these are students who don't have the typical exposure to veterinary medicine growing up and I I just got off teaching a workshop about impostor phenomenon with them.
But I had a student who would actually watch the children while she was going through vet school here in Michigan and became part of our family, really.And then when she graduated and got into practice, she hired me to help coach her through buying a practice.
And once she was in that practice, she hired me to come and talk to her team.And then when she was going through a corporate buyout just recently, she asked me to come again and support her through that transitional period.And what I realized is I I have these people cradle to grave.
I'm watching them go through that, these pivotal parts of their lives and we build trust and relationship.And they see the impact that somebody believing in them, somebody really understanding where they're coming from.
They appreciate having someone like that in their corner.And I said this, this is becoming a pattern.The students are graduating and then they're hiring me to work with them and their teams because they saw how it supported them during their vet school time.
And then your experience in the teaching people with disabilities or what you call invisible disabilities, does that play into your supporting the vets role?Like is is that a big part of it?You mostly coach people who struggle with some of these things.Or or not necessarily.
I do with and without, but I will tell you that I see many veterinary nursing students and vet Med students and human medicine students who have an invisible disability that gets in the way that makes them question themselves during this rigorous period of their education.
And I also teach faculty how to work with students who think differently.We need people who think differently.In veterinary medicine, there are different ways to do things, other ways to approach the same problem.
And the work is evolving telehealth, you know, more people have animals.Look at the look at the the influx of pet owners during the pandemic.So we've got to know that there are students and practitioners who have special gifts that enhance the work they do and sometimes gets in the way of interpersonal relationships, communication styles, definitely management styles.
And that's a that's a bulk of the the work that I do right now teaching people how to how to have interactions.So common examples because I like that you initially we talked about invisible disabilities, but then your reframe of saying different way of thinking rather than a disability, it's just a different way of thinking.
What are the most common things that you work with that you find specifically in the vet space?Do we have a trend we say, well, number 123 of of different ways of thinking that people struggle with.I think that I think that there is still that that the competition that students experience in that school carries into the work and it's it can be very competitive.
Therefore many people, especially I I work a lot with female owned clinics which are usually female staffed clinics and many of them work in silos.They're afraid to ask for help.Nobody wants to look weak.
Everybody thinks their answer is the right answer and there tends to be drama.And the thing about this population, this industry, is that you all are extremely tuned in to behavior, to emotion.
You are censors of the world.And so when all of that is taking place and communication is not happening, it becomes becomes like a volcano and it festers.
And so we get people to talk, to communicate, to figure out what's important to them and to start to treat one another as if we're all going through something.We're all struggling, we all have our challenges and learning, teaching people how to communicate effectively instead of beating around the Bush trying to read each other's minds.
And I think, I think one of the downfalls is that people do not know how to ask for help.I like this a lot.I love that you call competitiveness a a stumbling block.One of the things that blocks us because we've I feel like as because again you get into vertical by being competitive to some degree, if not with others in your class, at least with yourself.
You don't get those marks to get in there without some degree of competitiveness.So we often see it as a strength, if not a strength, at least prerequisite that there's got to be some degree of competitiveness and used to saying no, it's not, it's a stumbling block, it's something that that it's an invisible disability.
So how, how do we deal with that?How?How do you, how do you coach people through that?Well, it has to start with who's ever in charge.You know, I I only work with practices where leadership is willing to take part in the work as well, and I'm amazed at the amount of negative self talk that practitioners still have about themselves.
This one that I'm working at has multiple degrees, even an MBA on top of all of the veterinary work and yet still doubts the steps that she takes in her business with her people worries about what other people think.
And so I tear apart all of that.We we start to tear apart all of the the language and reframe it.And I, you know what I teach a lot of language skills dropping all of the weak UMS and UHS and just and I'm sorry, there's so much, there's so much language that gets in the way of what we're trying to say of the work that we're trying to do and even teaching people how to, to teach others how to treat them.
I have never seen an industry that received so much abuse from its clients.This is not this is this is an exception in vet Med.And I think it has a lot to do with the burnout, with the suicide rate, with the mental exhaustion, with quitting the profession because of the abuse.
And I I teach clinic owners that they do not have to take that.They can fire clients, they can teach their front desk staff how to interact with clients who come in hot.And it really, I believe it boils down to being open to communicating and to pausing, slowing down long enough to take care of ourselves between the transitions of seeing the next client and the next client and the next patient and the next patient, we've got to slow down.
I teach people to slow down, take a breath, do some energetic cutting and rejuvenate before they go in.And I know that's one of the questions you ask is what would I, what would I tell vet students?You know the only way you're going to help your your patients is by first caring for your mind and body and spirit and letting other people who love you support you.
I I want to dig deeper in that stuff that we covered before then we we talked about the competitiveness but then also the say lack of self worth or that I'm just not good enough.I don't.I I don't trust myself.So is that is there a tie between that is that apparent competitivenessness that we see.
So whether it's competitiveness with yourself or with others in your team, does that come from that lack of?And I don't think I'm good enough, so I don't feel like I'm good enough, so I don't know my stuff.So I've got to get better.I've got to get better.And then it shows itself almost as a defensiveness, almost, almost sometimes as an arrogance to saying, well, you can't question me, but it actually comes from, I don't feel like I know my stuff.
Is there a link between that?Exactly, yes.And this is what I just worked with this I'm trying to get to these students, younger and younger and younger, to teach them about the imposter phenomenon and how it comes and goes and how it attacks people who are smart.
And what happens is when we feel like this, if we keep it inside, if we press it down, that energy goes somewhere.It turns into illness, disease, missed work, yelling.It can look like defensiveness and being being rude with your staff.
But what has to happen is talking about it, thinking out loud about it with your staff.You know, today this person came in, did you notice this client who came in with this patient?And this is what happened.And this is how I was thinking about it.You know what do, what do you do when somebody comes in and questions your authority.
Somebody who came in and and has 6 pages of Google where they printed out their diagnosis of whatever it is.Imposter phenomenon feeds on isolation.And So what I get people to do is to talk out loud and to talk with their staff and especially women, Hugh, When they get talking, they have amazing revelations.
There's an unfolding that happens that brings clarity.But the pace of a veterinarian, of a veterinary nurse is so intense that it's rare that anybody stops long enough to say I need help.
I'm struggling.So let's say somebody's listening to this and they, they're A-Team leader, the clinical manager or a clinic owner or something like that.And they say, Oh yeah, I see that in my staff.I see that in my team I have nurse, Nurse X and my new grand vets or something, they have that almost a prickliness that can look like a like I said I've, I've seen this.
The reason I'm asking is that that has been me, a team leader with somebody who go, you need to ask for help because you're acting like you know everything.But I know deep down it comes from AI feel like I don't know anything, so I have to fake it.How do you support?How do you provide that support or that opportunity to talk as a as a team leader?
Well, I get, I get the person in front of me.I do a lot of work via Zoom, but I get that person in front of me.I I watch their body language.I'm very, you know, as a special Ed teacher, Hugh, I became a very good detective.
And I can see facial expressions, I can see ticks.Not the kind that crawl on you and Burrow into your skin, but the kind that you might have where your eye is twitching or your, you know, your mouth is wrinkled up or I watch for visible signs.
I am honest.I am honest in the most loving way with the leadership.And then we start to pull in team leaders and then staff.And it becomes, it becomes a A, it becomes a family.
From being these all these stepchildren living together in in one room to becoming a family and to learning about the give and take and what that means.And sometimes it's hard lessons.It's this person is extremely toxic.
Everybody knows who the toxic person is in the clinic or in the business you all know.And yet nobody will fire them because everybody needs people.And the truth is, I call BS on that and I say get rid of the toxicity and watch what will happen.
Watch how people will open up and take a deep breath and you'll have fewer people out sick.I I I think a take away for me from this conversation and many others I've had because I I had I ran my own business as well.
But to some degrees also don't think that you can do it all as the leader because the stuff you say that you are very good at picking up the subtleties in the body language and you you have a lot of experience and somehow we think that well, I'm a veterinarian.I've spent six years studying clinical vet stuff and then I defaulted into being a people leader with zero skills.
And yet I think I need to be able to solve all these problems.Whereas I'm the odds are that I'm half emotionally deaf and mute myself.And yeah, so often I think the solution is find some help.You can't do it all yourself if you have, if you have, not if you have.
When you have these problem situations, which is inevitable for any time that you have a group of people together, there's help outside there and bring it in.Does that make?Sense that yes.And that you know, Hugh, that stress and that pressure invariably comes home with your loved one.
You know, my husband is very good at not unleashing when he comes home and I know he he sees a lot during his day.But part of the the, the loving, supportive relationships that are so vital in this industry, in this work, is for your, you know, for me as his wife or someone as a partner says, hey, I'm noticing that you are coming home and opening up a beer now and you don't just drink one, You drink three or I'm noticing that you're coming in and you're you're yelling at the kids or you're mean to your own animals, like something's going on, let's do something about it.
And sometimes it does take the partner to set up the therapy, the family time, the decompression, that opportunity for them to be a human outside of that work environment.If you ever get to the point where you're just two people living in the same space, parallel lives, you know, we all know when that happens.
We can feel when that happens.That is a great sign that communication has to start and maybe some intervention is necessary.But sometimes it really is on people who love them the most to say it out loud.Call you on your bullshit.
Yeah.Been there.Which is hard because Amy you've done it because you want to.You.Most people don't have your skills.Most vets or their partners don't have the skills that you have.So a you want to avoid conflict and you don't want to sound like the the windy partner.
Oh, you never do this in this.You come home grumpy or or the flip side.Then the defensiveness that you likely to get if if I go look I'm noticing that that's three beers a night where it used to be one.And then the reaction is often going to be, hey, it's none of your business.Leave me alone.
I've had a tough day.OK just just leave me have my 3 beers.So how do you, How do you deal with?That but you know that is.But this is what is so.This is what I think is so unique.You know, I was determined not to be that prototypical wife who supports her husband all through professional training.
And then he dumps me and runs off with a younger, prettier, you know, great body and and I was.And in order to do that, I had to stay in front of him.And if if the defensiveness was there, you know, we continued to talk about it.
We stayed in the same space.And I am a mover.I am not somebody who likes to sit down and have conversations.So we had to learn very early on.If we're going to have a conversation, I'm probably going to be cleaning the kitchen while you sit in front of me and have a meal.
We had to make exceptions like, look, I don't cook, so if you're going to eat, you're going to have to make your own food.I'll bake bread all day long, but I do not cook.So my husband, you know, he used to be the cook before vet school.He made amazing meals, and that was something that we had to let go of for decades because of his intensive study and work.
And we were OK with that.There were no expectations for me to be like that poster mom with the apron on.That was never going to happen.And so there are going to be these stressful times.And we've been through it all, you know, It's like we're in it for the long haul.
It wasn't just four years.I have three children and said look, your letters are running off your business card.No more degrees, no more children, we're done.And if.There's one take away from this podcast it's it's no more degrees, no more children.
Yeah, you don't have more children than you have degrees.There you go.But there's a level of commitment not only to each other, but to the work.I believe in the work that my husband is doing.I believe in what he does and in in his intelligence and in his stamina and his dedication to teaching.
He loves to teach.And I'll say I think he stuck with me all this time because he's learned a lot about education and neurodiversity from me.He's a great teacher because we suss out some of these problems that that he sees in the classroom, but we're in it together.
We we're we love this profession as a team and that there's something in that.There's something powerful in that.So let's say somebody's listening to this early on in their career, so pre the internship or maybe even just starting Med school, and they have a special relationship where they're married or not.
It might not be the one yet, but if you think it is the one, how does the conversation look at the outset?How do you set things up right?Because it's like for you guys, did you have big conversations at the beginning or has it just been a work in progress of Constant?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.There's the there.And I'm going to say right off the bat, be careful about right and wrong, good and bad.What what we know is that we make decisions to the best of our abilities in the moment with the information we have with the person in front of us.
The person you love and everything that you believe is all the things you believe are going to happen are probably going to be flipped upside down.This is not for the weak of heart, but if you're going to do it, and you will do it if you committed to it, it's about communicating every step of the way.
This is working.This is not working.This is a possibility.What are we going to do?I mean really, when it comes to that internship and residency, what are we going to do?If it's ABC or D, what does that look like?Who are our support systems?
You know, we knew no one when we went to vet school.We knew even fewer people when we moved to Michigan.But the beautiful thing about that move is that my family was closer in Michigan than they had ever been in our relationship.
So I would say communicate, set out your options, never put your eggs in one basket and have support systems wherever you go.And how do you find the support systems?Because you're right, that is a big issue.I've experienced that several times because I've moved from South Africa to the UK, UK to Australia, West Coast, East Coast.
And every time that disruption of the support system, I I feel it.I have this, I, I have a a way that I after our most recent move where we've been in one place for about 12 years and I thought the move wasn't going to be that disruptive because it was still within Australia.
But I said to a friend the other day, I feel like like if you have a pot plant that's well established in its pot, but it's outgrown the pot and then you repart it into a bigger pot.But even in that reparting, there's some root damage.So there's a little bit of wilting, a little bit of afterwards.
It's I feel like it's those support systems that that's that's that that gets disrupted, that doesn't provide the nutrients for that plant to thrive.How do we reestablish those roots?Have you got techniques or tips or or finding the sport?Of course.Of course I do.
And yes moves are one of them.They're they're like in the top three most stressful things you can do is move.We've moved nine times.So when that happens and and you get your bearings, once you're where you are, you know the pandemic has changed things in that realm.
We are now more connected than ever.We all have made a friend somewhere out there that we've never met in person.And so we have links in our chain that are so populated with people who we've met over the last several years through this medium.
And so there's no reason to not reach out.And I'm a believer that if you want something, instead of saying I wish there was this right, complaining about anything in your environment, you go out and you create it.If you want to have.
If you miss your social circle, you get out there and you create one.You open your house up and have a potluck.You go to, you know, the art studio because you love art and you start to talk to people.Hi, we just moved here.I've got three kids where, you know, tell me about the schools, about the camps, about the YMCA.
The thing about learning and being a part of a new community is the first thing we have to do is learn the language.We have to learn the vocabulary associated with where we are and what we're doing now.And so you get out and you talk to people and you ask questions and you live like your life depends on the questions you're asking, because it does.
And the older I get and the longer I live, I recognize just how short of a time we have.And we don't have time for the BS or worrying about what other people think.You get out and you make the connections.You hit the pavement, you make the phone calls, you make yourself seen, which I know is very scary.
But you be who you want to see in the world, you know.Be that person and you will attract those people to you.It's great advice.It is great advice.But it is hard, as you say, especially for a bunch of people who have those invisible disabilities.
That makes it harder for us to to do that stuff.Absolutely.I get it.Yeah.I get it.Can I backtrack to some of your work with something you you mentioned right at the beginning and it's not what I planned to discuss, But I think it's so important where you talked about because you you, your coaching work and your support work.
It's not just vet, you also do other health professions and all sorts of other professions.And it struck me that you said the way that our clients sometimes treat us is unique to us and a why does that happen?
Do you have any inkling of why clients are ruder to us?And then what you said there, you mentioned not allowing that because you said, yes, it's for the clinic owners can fire clients in that.But it's very often, hey, the clinic owner doesn't support that or they're not involved.
Or.Or there's situations in the moment where it is the receptionist at the front desk, the nurse at the back or the veterinarian, not the owner in the consult room who gets treated in a way that they're not happy with.How do we respond to that and how do we disallow that without being rude?
You know, with sometimes you have to be rude, but yeah, what's a good strategy for that?But first of all, where does it come from?What?Why do they?Why do we get that?The blunt end of the sharp end of the stick, actually.It's because when people come to you, they're not in their frontal lobe.People are not operating in their in their frontal lobe when they come to you.
Their executive functioning skills are in the toilet.So they're back in their limbic brain, they're emotional, they're concerned about something that they love so passionately and they're coming in hot.And I think that we don't teach people how to deal with people in crisis.
You know, people on the phone don't know how to deal with people in crisis.And your clients are often, unless they're puppy visits, well, child visits.Yes, my look, it's everybody's healthy and happy.That's great.But that's not the majority of who you see.We are very visual beings.
We need to see things.We need to tap into our senses.And I am continually amazed when I go into clinics at at how sterile or how dead they are.When we bring people in in crisis, they need signage.
You are about to come into a space that's peaceful and helpful.Please respond accordingly or even smile.You're on camera.We've got video cameras on you.We are here to help.
Please be kind.Speak in a tone that is respectful to the other people in the waiting room.Put up signage for one.Secondly, you teach your frontline people how to respond to people in crisis, and if somebody comes in hot, you can say I am here to help.
And when you are talking to me like that, I am unable to help you.I've got options.You can go into this space over here that we have this a calming room and take 5 minutes.Or you can take a deep breath and start over.
But most of our frontline people either don't have that language or they're terrified.They don't believe that they can speak to a client like that.I teach people that they can.But if you think about what you know, what you want to create, it's a space where you hear things, you see things, you smell things that calm you.
OK.Yeah.Yeah, it it does.It takes.I think it comes with experience as well.It happens to you a few times and then you go out and that's enough.Because I I remember situations where only later in my career there's a specific instance where I was at the clinic alone, I was working after hours and somebody rang the doorbell and immediately on the intercom they were swearing at me.
Just open the effing door blah blah blah blah.And you were on the intercom like I went just like at 3:00 in the morning.You drive me insane.And I know you're just.I didn't say this.I was thinking this, But then saying to them on the intercom, listen, there is another emergency clinic 10 minutes up the road.
If you're going to speak to me in that disrespectful way, then I'd rather you go there.If you can't change your tone of voice, then I'm not going to come open up.I don't know, is that is that correct?Is that too crude or too, too rude?Because it worked.He went, he piped right down.
He's like, sorry, I'm very stressed and I opened up and we were fine, but it was literally just drawing the line saying actually it's not cool.Yes, I understand that you're upset, but I'm not going to tolerate it.Correct.And as an owner of a practice, you may feel more confident doing that.But I'm telling you, every single front desk, vet, nurse, vet tech and practitioner you have in that hospital needs to be able to have the confidence and the permission to do the exact same thing.
I I had this idea once.How do you make this practical?Because it's also hard and I understand if I'm and I don't think I would have had the courage to do that as a 22 year old new graduate to stand up to a 50 year old male owner who's angry to to draw that line there.
I said how do we make it easier.You know I have this idea of I don't know if you what sports you guys support but in soccer or rugby or the things that I watch you have the card system the yellow card and the red card you should have a sign behind reception that says green card means everything's good.
Yellow card means watch your tone.Red means you're out.Get off the field and they have cards at the front desk where somebody is rude you to you card them.Yellow card, Go sit in the corner, come back 10 minutes out and then you can have another go.Or if it's too rude, just get out right.I love it.
Brilliant.That's brilliant because.I don't have to say anything.That's right, I love it and people respond to color.And if you think about it, my car will flash a green car symbol if the traffic is moving.
It will do a yellow one if it's congested and if people walk into a clinic that is filled.It's a busy day.It's like when the airplane people say that we have a full flight today.So let's side check your luggage here.People coming in can see this is a full waiting room.
It's it's yellow or it's red.Please act accordingly.Be respectful to other people in the, you know, I mean we we need those visual cues, especially after the pandemic.We're still learning, relearning how to treat one another when we're face to face.
Yeah, so should we should we start wrapping up?Because I've kept you busy for over an hour already.This is so lovely.Let's wrap up again with just going back to the relationship between vet non vet, and should we finish it up with saying I'd love to know.
Let's say one of your kids starts dating and gets serious with somebody who's studying to be a vet.What do you say to them?What?What do you say to them?Watch out for these things.Or what are the joys like?Fantastic.
Here.Here's the stuff that's going to be really good, potentially.But there's Mom's advice that you're not going to listen to because I'm your mom and kids never listen to their moms.But anyway, let's give it a try.You know you know what It's it's really that I will liken it to this hue.
When I was going to be married to my husband and I did say we're interracial.And in fact, I will say my husband was the first African American male to graduate from the University of Wisconsin Madison.And guess what the year was 2002 thousand.
So when I was going to get.Yeah.When I was going to get married.I know.I know doesn't it when it.I mean, I want to just shake people and that's that's one of the reasons why he worked so hard and so diligently to in the DEI space and in the he he does such great work.
But my father initially refused to walk me down the aisle because he was concerned about our children.That's what he said.He was concerned about our children, even though we were just going to get married.And the reality is, our relationship has only ever struggled.
With the everyday normal relationship struggles, children finance, addictions, illness, cancer moves, deaths of our parents, Gram, I mean you name it, in an in a normal life, these are the struggles we had.
It wasn't the interracialness of our relationship.And I would say, you know, if one of my kids was going to date somebody going into Vet Med, they've got some pretty great examples and role models in their father and me.
You know, if you have examples, no matter where in your family of origin or in your colleagues or in your mentors or in your friend groups, if you've got examples of good communication, loving, supportive relationships, people who continue to work on themselves.
Because like you said, most veteran veterinarians I know are with people who are also strong, motivated, goal oriented.They are succeeding in life at whatever they're doing.You all don't marry twits.We work together to continually move forward, and that's painful at times and it's joyous at times.
And I think my husband and I both want to leave the world better than we found it.And we've done that with our children.And we've also done that in the work because we continue to lift people up, to educate them, to help them move forward despite their challenges and trust themselves to do the work that they know that they can do.
If you're called to do something, you are capable out of the gate.You were not into construction.You weren't called to be a construction worker.That wasn't like the thing you love to do when maybe it was when you grow up.I wasn't going to be an accountant.
We are capable in our passions.It's interesting that you say that the so none of the struggles, personal and relational and everything else was really rate related because I and this is a podcast for vets so we talk about vet specific problems.
But I do sometimes feel like as a profession we are very good at saying, oh it's so hard for us and our profession this and this and this and this.But you also coach other professions and it sounds like there's nothing you that makes it uniquely well.They are like, let's rephrase that as a question.
Are there things that makes the veterinary thing uniquely challenging compared to some of the other professions, and specifically the healthcare professions that you coach?I think when you're in the business of saving lives, you believe that you are always wearing that Cape.You are always saving lives.
And I think the the biggest challenge in Healthcare is boundary setting is turning it off.Is saying this is where I stop working sending texts.You know, and this is the this is the dichotomy right now, Is that one of the one of the key components of what veterinary schools are expected to teach is Wellness.
And yet the very people who are teaching the students are working an inordinate amount of hours.They come in before the students arrive, they leave after they go home.They're answering emails and texts in the middle of the night.And that is a conversation that I have had all through this relationship with my husband because he's been doing this longer than he hasn't.
We've been together longer, you know, more than we haven't been together.And that is a that is one of the repeated conversations, Set boundaries, say no.And you can imagine as an African American male, he is asked to be on every diversity committee, every committee that has to see, you know, a dispute because they need diversity.
And so learning how to say no and say you know what I I can have a life because you are responsible for your Wellness and the students coming out of school know to expect that from their employers.
And.And I looked at that question about the gap between wanting to make more money and work less.So let's, let's do that.So, so the pastor like, yeah.So I'll, I'll, I'll segue into that.
So you just keep you're skipping ahead.Come on.I'm sorry.No, no, no.I'm just going to frame it and I'd love you to hear your answer because I think it's a big.Question.I feel it's a bit unfair.But our previous guest asked, I should ask the next guest, How do you solve the gap between vets wanting more, so more money but also wanting to do less work, which I think is I think that's one of the solutions for more balance.
But have you got any insight on that?First of all, ridiculous question.We're going to we're going to chop it right in half.OK, We're going to chop it in half and we're going to, we're going to make it 2 questions.Because as a spouse of a veterinarian, hell yes.
I want him to work less because he has done this work for so long and he ought to be making more money.Absolutely, but there is no gap.So we're going to cut out the gap part and we're going to say vets want more money because they deserve more money.They're coming out of school in six figure debt.
The market is now paying more to veterinarians because that that is what COVID has done and students are coming out expecting to make more as they should.The role of veterinarian is evolving.Telehealth has brought a whole new arm into human and animal medicine, so they are expected to do more.
No more balance, juggle more.I don't like the word balance.So the work is evolving.There are higher expectations.Vets are not whiners.I have never met a veterinarian who doesn't work so hard and believe in what he and she they whatever they do, they are hard workers.
They don't complain about things.They are doing the work.So the second part of that work, less work.That's so funny.No, what they're doing is they're coming out of unreasonable expectations in their training into reasonable expectations in their employment.
And absolutely because they are being taught, like I said, this Wellness component, In order for vet schools to be accredited, they have to show that one of the competencies that they're teaching is Wellness.How to advocate for yourself, how to negotiate a contract, how to speak up, how to walk away from a position that's toxic.
And what we want is we want veterinarians who are happy and healthy and strong, not suiciding and leaving the profession and becoming so unhappy that it's ruining relationships and practices and that it's that it's wrecking humans.
We want them to know how to take care of themselves.So yes, I asked my clients for more money every year I do this work.Why?Because I invest thousands in my work and myself in my education.
You know, veterinarians do too.We are always learning and bettering ourselves.And the more experience, you get the job done, you get the job done faster, you know, more, you're more confident.So yeah, I think veterinarians ought to make more money.
And I don't think it's about less work.I think it's about more reasonable work expectations.Yeah, I like that a lot.I heard a comment once from a an owner of a big red group where they were instituting a Wellness program and some of the leadership, it's some resistance, not resistance, but they were curious about what it's going to look like.
And when they were told it was going to look like, they said, yeah, that's great.I like these things.As long as it's not just how do we earn more for working less And a part of me went, yeah, I think that's the first component is how do we make it more sustainable because that is it.
That is if if I earn a bit more I don't have to do all the overtime hours, I can have a life outside of it.So I I I did stick with me a little bit to go.I think that's probably step one is to make sure that it is a more sustainable career and that involves money and time off.
I agree.I agree.I I do want to underline what you said before.The people who teach Wellness, That's a a light bulb for me.If you want to teach Wellness, live Wellness model it because otherwise it's empty.Empty word.Absolutely.This is how we align.
This is, this is how I wake up every day and do my work.It's because I practice what it is that I share in the world.If I'm not practicing it, I don't teach it.I'm not out there trying to teach people yoga.I don't practice yoga, but I do practice Qigong and I teach people that all the time.
What's Qigong?Qigong is energy work, so it's movement and breath.It's a little bit like Tai chi, but a little bit less strenuous.Yeah, I'll send you a link.It's really cool.It's a great transitional exercise for in between transitioning from one thing into the next.
All righty, are you a podcast listener at all, Regina?Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.Audible absolutely saved my life.I never used to read until Audible.And I do love we can do hard things with Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach because I think they're pretty cool.
I love the HIDDEN Brain.It's an NPR podcast.You know, I've learned very cool things on that.So those two I would recommend.I'm a big fan of Glennon Doyle, but I've not come across we can do hard things.Give us a quick summary.Oh my goodness.
I mean, she she hits all sorts of things.She just interviewed Brené Brown.She had the Nagaski sisters on the stress cycle.If you haven't read that book by the Nagaski, the Nagaski Sisters Burnout.Oh so good.It talks about completing the stress cycle.
You know, like after you've seen dogs, you know, shake off after they've come in contact with another dog.That's what they talk about, things like that.They talk about neurodiversity.Basically anything that Glennon has has lived in her life.Based on her book Untamed.
They address it in the podcast.It's really good.OK.All right.And then our final question, you have the opportunity to address all the veterinary new grads of the world.I should change that question because as the podcast grows, I do realize that I can reframe it to say you have the opportunity to speak to 2 to 3000 veterinarians, which you do right now, and you have to give them one little bit of advice.
What is your take away if we haven't already covered it?You know, I know there's a question that I'm supposed to ask the next guest and it's sort of aligns with what I would say to to the people, OK.
Because what I know and I, I have inquired with many, many vets.What I find is that you all rarely spend time by yourself.So the question is, what do you think about most when you're by yourself and you're not doing that enough?
And I'll go back to the statement that the only way you can truly help your patients is by caring first for your mind and body and spirit.And because we're talking about support from your loved ones, learning the give and take.
Giving doesn't work without receiving, and so knowing what it is you need requires you to stop and spend time by yourself.Listen to your body.It never lies.
The body never lies.But the only time that we can really TuneIn is if we stop and spend time with ourselves.I like that a lot, Regina.That was lovely.
I really enjoy that.There's a lot in there.We could do this for days.I'm gonna have to dig into your resources for anybody else who wants to dig into Regina's resources.Or maybe get in touch.Where do we find you?Where do we find your stuff?My most favorite place to hang out and play is on LinkedIn, so look me up on LinkedIn.
Regina Carey, I am known as the Queen of Action Hue.So if anybody wants to jump on my calendar for 15 minutes, go to queenofaction.com and and let's get face to face, because I have been known to flip your worldview upside down in 15 minutes or less.
Queen of Action I.Call that the Queen of Action.Yeah, I I gave it to myself because it's all about.I'm all about taking action on your life.OK.Well, thank you so so much for your time and I really look forward to connecting.
Thank you.Before you disappear, I wanted to tell you about our new weekly newsletter.I speak to so many interesting people and learn so many new things while making the podcast.
So I thought I'd create a little summary each week of the stuff that stood out for me.We call it the Vet Vault 321 and it consists of firstly 3 clinical Pearls.These are three things that I've taken away from.The clinical podcast episodes, my light bulb moments, the penny dropping, any new facts and the stuff that we need to know to make all the other pieces fit.
Then two other things.This could be quotes, links, movies, books, a podcast, highlight, anything that I've come across outside of clinical vetting that I think you might find interesting.And then one thing to think about.I'll share something that I'm pondering, usually based on something that I've read or heard, but sometimes it'll be just my own musings or rants.
The goal of this format is that you can spend just two to three minutes on the clinical stuff and move right along if that's all that you're after.But if you're looking for content that is more nourishing than cat videos or doom scrolling, then our two other things should send you in the right direction.And then something extra for when you feel like a slightly longer read.
If you'd like to get these in your inbox each week, then subscribe by following the newsletter link in the show description wherever you're listening to this.It's free, I think it's useful, it's fun, and it's easy to unsubscribe.If it's not for you, OK, We'll see you next time.

Regina Carey