Oct. 24, 2023

#104: A Dedication To Difficult Dogs: How Getting Better At Behaviour Medicine Can Make You Happier. With Dr Dennis Wormald.

#104: A Dedication To Difficult Dogs: How Getting Better At Behaviour Medicine Can Make You Happier. With Dr Dennis Wormald.
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Season 4

Join us as we chat with the incredible Dr Dennis Wormald, and discover why he wants us to take another look at the word - difficult - when it comes to our patients.

Dennis is not your run-of-the-mill vet; he's a bona fide canine behaviour enthusiast and his fascination with understanding and addressing the quirks of our four-legged friends began long before he donned his vet hat. Back in the day, he was knee-deep in biomedical science with a major in neuroscience, and he even dabbled in the world of addiction neuroscience. As a general practice vet, Dennis found himself increasingly drawn to the world of behaviour, so fast forward to 2017, he earned himself a PhD in canine anxiety and he's also now proudly a member of the ANZCVS behaviour chapter. Since 2021, he's been focusing solely on behaviour referral practice, and Dennis didn't stop there. He's also the mastermind behind ABADog.com⁠—a platform he originally created to supercharge his own behaviour consultations. Think of it as your one-stop shop for gathering every essential nugget of behaviour history and turning it into a tailor-made action plan for each patient. In 2023, Dennis decided to add the title of "author" to his bio, with the release of "A Dedication to Difficult Dogs: A Heartwarming Tale Shedding Light on Canine Mental Health." In this podcast episode, we'll dive deep into the world of veterinary behaviour with Dennis and chat about what makes the field of behaviour science seem daunting to many, why some of us aren't quite experts (yet), and how boosting our knowledge and empathy can not only make us better vets, but also safer ones. Dennis also shares some game-changing strategies, tips, and tools up his sleeve that'll instantly up your game in your next behaviour consultation and transform your interactions with dogs across the board.

Topic list:

14:51 Anthropomorphizing can be beneficial. 15:01 Empathy is essential for animal welfare. 24:29 Mental health issues in dogs. 25:35 Emotionally driven behaviours are difficult to change. 30:23 Dogs chew and bark for relief. 35:21 Fear and anxiety drive aggression. 40:05 Prioritise patient welfare and comfort. 46:06 Understanding animal behaviour is a science. 50:20 Read multiple papers for consensus. 55:39 Customised behaviour mod and environmental mod. 61:30 Streamline behaviour consultations with ABAdog. 64:46 Improve by focusing on solutions. 68:00 Take care of your mental health.

 

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When was the last time that you lost it at work with one of your patients because they are badly behaved, Like with a patient who wouldn't sit still or try to bite or scratch you, or just wouldn't stop barking?I had one of those barkers just this past weekend where I could just feel my stress levels climb and climb and climb until I was ready to storm out of the building in a huff and slam the door dramatically behind me.
It's funny, we talk a lot about the challenges and stresses of working with people, but I don't often hear anyone talk about the stress of working with non cooperative patients, which for me personally is a major stressor.Like, I just want to help you and I just want to get my job done, but you're making it so hard by being so bloody difficult.
Doctor Dennis Wimald wants us to take another look at that word difficult when it comes to our patients.Dennis is a veterinarian with a deep rooted passion for understanding and addressing canine behavior and anxiety.His entry into the world of animal behavior began before his vet degree, with a Biomedical Science degree with a neuroscience major and research experience in addiction neuroscience.
An increasing interest in behavior during his years as a GP vet led to a PhD in canine anxiety in 2017 and to Dennis attaining membership by examination of the Australian New Zealand College of Veterinary Surgeons behavior chapter.Since 2021, he's been working solely in behavioral referral practice.
He's also the founder of ABBA dog.com, a platform that he initially designed to make his own behavior consults better by collecting all the important behavior history for you and then collating the information to create a tailor made behavior plan for the patient.And in 2023, Dennis added author to his bio with the release of A Dedication to Difficult Dogs, A Heartwarming Tail Shedding Light on Canine Mental Health.
Of course, you'll find the link for both of these in the show description wherever you're listening to this.I totally stole Dennis's book title for this episode because that's ultimately what this conversation is about.Not the book, but about Dennis's mission to help us and our clients better understand the root causes of the behaviors that lead us to unfairly labeling our patients as bad dogs or naughty dogs.
It's about a paradigm shift in how we think about behavior, both as it pertains to the behaviors we have to deal with as vets on a daily basis and to how we respond to those behaviors as well as when clients come to us for advice about their pets undesirable behaviors.It's about reframing difficult from meeting bad to needs a little bit of extra work.
In this conversation we talk about, amongst other things, what it is about behavior as a field in veterinary science that puts so many people off it, why so many of us are so bad at it, and why getting better at it by increasing our knowledge and our empathy won't just make you a better of it, but also a safe of it and reduce a lot of your work related stress.
Dennis also shares some practical strategies, tips and tools that will instantly lift your game in your next behavior console and your general interaction with dogs.We've also previously had Dennis as a guest on our clinical podcasts talking about behavior stuff, including a great practical guide on behavior, medication, drugs, sedatives, and angiolytics.
Go check it out at vvn.supercars.com, along with more than 400 other episodes in small animal medicine, surgery and emergency and critical care, all backed by our super popular show, notes Okay.Let's jump in with Doctor Dennis Wirmult.Welcome to the vet belt mate.
Thank you, Hugh.Hi.We've had many conversations off air and spent lots of cool time together doing fun things, so it's a privilege to have you officially on the podcast so we can capture some of the the cool stuff that you have to share on there for the rest of the world.So thank you for making the time for us.
Oh, no worries.Yeah, it's unfortunately, it's probably going to be a bit like when you try to take a photo of your cat that just did something really funny and then as soon as you hold up your camera, it just stops.But we'll see.Hopefully we catch some good stuff for you too.Maybe we should record this?Walking through a rainforest in Lombok, across the rice Paddy, through the mud, that's where we've had our best conversations, right Was was hiking across Lombok, swimming in waterfalls together.
Oh, I think about that almost every day.Yeah, we've got to get that up and running again.Oh, man.Anyway, let's start with my standard kickoff question.Bad decisions lead to good stories, Yes or no?And do you have and you can't disagree?
I've had people disagree, but if you don't disagree, if you think there's something to it, do you have any stories to corroborate to support that statement?Bad decisions, good stories, I think.Bad decisions.You'd say that's a mistake, right?And good story is maybe something positive.
So learning from your mistakes, Absolutely.Absolutely.I think we all learn from our mistakes.One of my.It's not really very related, but I do remember some things that I one thing I do regret is back in 2011, just after I graduated, I was waiting for my first job.
I was reading New Scientist magazine and I saw this thing called Bitcoin in the magazine.I thought and I saw you could mine it online like you use your computer to calculate it.And I got my computer out and I started mining away for hours and hours.And it took me age to set up like and I spent all this time on it, mined it for a few hours and I got like.
Half a Bitcoin in like 2 hours.I'm like, oh, it's worth.It was worth like a dollar and I was like, oh, it's not worth it.A dollar for for an hour's work.Like 2 hours of the computer.Like that's just a waste of time.And so I just completely forgot about it and left it and and never opened it up half again.And it was kind of a bad decision at the time because it wasn't worth the money, but maybe it was a bad decision to actually stop doing it and not commit.
Maybe it's saying we need to commit 100% when we do things and not just fluff around and.Go half, half, halfway.So.But yeah, Needless to say, that $20,000 is gone.What?So you had a half a Bitcoin, did you?
Don't You don't even have the half a Bitcoin anymore, did you?How did?No way.That's on an old laptop that's gone, gone a long time ago and lost and forgotten about.Yeah.That's not a good story.That's a tragedy.Wow.
So you were first in on Bitcoin, one of the very first people.And then when, I mean, I've got stories like that.That's why I cringe, because I have enough stories like that that I go, yeah, I could have been, could have, could have, should have, right.It's easier retrospect to look back on things you should have done.Yeah, absolutely.
It was just when mining pools had opened up, so like a online like pool you could join up to and.Mine as like a conglomerate, like a whole bunch of other computers.And so yeah, the amount I mined on my little laptop then would now take like a room full of servers like hours to mine.
So it's gotten a lot harder than it was back then.Wow.Yeah, you.I always forget with all the stuff that you do and all of your knowledge that you really techie as well.Let's take a quick detour.How did that happen?Because I know you, you do computer stuff, right?
That's that's one of your many talents.Yeah, and it makes me feel like a bit of an outsider in the vet world to be honest, because it's not a lot of really techie, geeky technology vets out there.And so, fair enough.I mean, it's it's almost like opposites in terms of of the skills that you need and everything.
It's very focused on like little minutia in almost mathematics and code.Yeah, I've always been into it and always been into just hacking away and figuring out how to get things to work like.Old computers and stuff when you had no money, not much money growing up.
Had to keep them working.And so I'd figure out ways of fixing them and have to write little bits of code sometimes or, you know, fix drivers and stuff.And it's just, I think a real persistence and not wanting to give up and just keep trying.Almost like bashing my head against a wall.Like not giving up perseverance in terms of getting things to work through computers.
That I kind of enjoy it.It's almost sadistic.Like I like going through that pain and trying to get things to work because once they do work, that endorphin rush you get from finally going, yes, I got it to work.It's just it's great.And I just kept on pursuing that until I ended up knowing how to, you know, program and and all sorts of stuff.
So yeah.I think you just answered one of my future questions.So we're going to talk about animal behavior obviously because that's your your big thing work wise.And one of my questions was going to be, why do some people like behavior?
And then why do most of us?I'd say most of us.But yeah, it's not.A lot of people are really into behavior, right?And I was going to ask why, but I wonder if that's the answer there, because it's freaking hard and you bump your head against the same thing.And most of us, when most of us just go fuck it too hard, send it to somebody else and you enjoy the bashing of the head.
Do you want me to answer it now or later?Because it's a bit of a different answer 0.K go for it.Tell me.Well, I think with behavior, it's not.It doesn't.That one doesn't feel like bashing my head against the wall, to be honest.But I get why it does for every other or most other vets.
Like, I completely get it.It's because it's a foundational subject and a foundational topic.And by that, what I mean is when you're learning about internal medicine.You're relying on all of your undergraduate Physiology and biochemistry without knowing that that's all in the background and that's your foundational knowledge to then be able to understand the disease process and with behavior.
Unfortunately, vets don't come out with any behavioral foundational knowledge or next to none, and it needs whole semesters and whole subjects, just like how you need your Physiology and stuff to understand internal medicine.And it's exactly the same.And so yeah, that's why it feels like bashing head.
Against the wall, I think because you've never been taught the the underpinnings of the of the theory behind it.That makes a lot of sense.And it's like that, right, with with clinical stuff, if there's a gap in your knowledge on whether it's dermatology or the lecturer in whatever topic wasn't that great or maybe you had a hangover on the day that you covered the foundational stuff back at uni or?
You just and you get into work and you'll always have that resistance because you you go, I don't get this, I don't get this.I don't like it because I don't get it.And if you go to it continuing education at a later point or you commit some time to to restarting, to getting back to the roots of it, that's often when it clicks and you go, ah, that's doesn't suck nearly as much as I thought.
I kind of like it because I can get some of it that I say.I use dermatology because that was me with dermatology, for example.I I just frustrated me.And then I did a bunch of CPD in it.I suddenly went, oh, it's actually quite cool.I know what I'm doing.Absolutely.
It's I find that you enjoy things more when you actually are good at it, and I think that's pretty common experience.So yeah, the behavior thing specifically, and I'm curious if it's changed.I mean, it's been a long time since my my vet school days, but certainly for me, like my my bias against behavior because literally my behavior education at vet school was.
Like I think we in first year or something like that, we'd had a little session on behavior basics and we had this guy who was in his 60s, old school fed with, if I recall it was actually a carvet came in and talked to us a little bit about animal behavior.
And the gist of it was.Animals are not humans.They don't have don't answer more.But still, how do you say it anthromorphicize help me with?It anthropomorphize is a tongue twister.Don't ascribe human thoughts and emotions to animals.
They don't feel like us.They don't think like us.That was my foundational behavior knowledge, which I feel like is very damaging.And still, even when I when I read your book and I and I do, we talk about behavior stuff, that little voice still comes up in my head as like.I don't know if I believe all this stuff because it's just an animal.
I don't know if I feel that do.Do you still find that is that hey, I'm I'm sure that that I teach that at Unis as it changed.Is that foundational knowledge in our current graduates way better than it used to be?I think it's slightly better.I think we've gotten better.
You know, as a field in terms of the high level gold standard behavior has improved a lot since we both graduated.It's improving all the time, but I do think that.There's still not enough time dedicated in the course and there's only so much you can teach in a limited amount of time for any subject.
And so imagine if you had to go through all of your animal Physiology in a week for all animals, for all species, all animal Physiology in one week.Imagine where you get to as a as a vet after that with that kind of foundation.So it's, you know, obviously that's always going to be a problem as long as it's not the time dedicated to it.
It's not because it's just.It's out of left field.In terms of like with different species you can, you know, say, oh, if there's a disease that affects this, this body system in one species, you can then be comparative and think about another species.And you know, maybe with wildlife or something when they're coming in, even if you don't know exactly the disease in detail, you can still get all that backup knowledge from related species that you can just pull across into your mind and give you some first principles when dealing with something outside of the box.
But you can't do that with behavior because you haven't got something.Something else similar enough that you can then pull across that knowledge because it's just it's all behavior theory.It's like, you know, your conditioning, your learning theory, your animal signaling, it's all sorts of stuff that's just not taught in detail that needs you a long time to get that into your brain.
So it's tough.It's really tough.And I empathize for vets.Absolutely.I I feel bad.I don't blame vets that aren't good at behavior.I think there's they're dumb in any way at all.I think that we are expected to be jacks of all trades and we can't be.It's just unrealistic.We all hopefully understand that by now.
Yeah, a.Couple of places I could go with it.The 1st, and I don't know if it's too big a question, so you can say that we don't have three days to talk about this, but.Let's say you, Dennis, Dennis 2023 is sitting in that lecture that I had back in my day with that dude talking about animals and and how they are very different to us.
Dennis puts his hand up and says, excuse me Prof What do you say?What feedback can you give to that statement?I think I would say that yes, animals are not humans, and it's important not to answer promorphize.
Too much with them.But I think it can be healthy to anthropomorphize in some ways.I think, especially if you're thinking about animal welfare and and pain and stress and anxiety or enjoyment of life, because that part of their brain that feels the world that has sensations and feelings, it works the same way in them as us.
So when they feel pain feels pretty much like how when we feel pain and when they feel scared, it's like when we feel scared.So I'd say that.If you don't anthropomorphize in that sense, you lose a lot of chance for empathy and compassion towards animals.
Because if you don't imagine how they could be feeling bad, it's hard to have that same level of of care, and particularly in behavior as well.Because these behaviors that people and vets are dealing with that are caused by things like stress and anxiety and fear, they're often very unpleasurable behaviors for us as humans to experience things like ear splitting, barking, destructive behaviors.
In the clinic, you know the the the chance of being bitten and injured.So it's almost like they're trying to make us not empathize with them by the things they're doing.And yet if you can understand really and say and feel what they're doing and why they're doing it, that helps all go a long way with with empathizing.
I think that's what I'd say.It's a good answer and it actually actually think quite a bit because I think that approach of they don't think the way we do, they don't worry about stuff ahead of time or they don't.Ruminate about the past like we do gives you a cop out.
It's something that makes things easier to go well.I can do these things.I don't have to spend time or energy or emotional energy thinking about their feelings.I can just get on with my day versus having empathy.And I like what you say there to say they're not human, but rather err on the side of caution, rather over interpret what they feeling or could be feeling.
And compensate for that, then go the opposite way and and underestimate it.And then inadvertently or or unconsciously cause suffering.But that approach of feeling for them is harder because now you have to think about it.Once you've empathized, once you go, oh shit, I think you're feeling this and this and this.
Now we've got to do something about it.But I think maybe that sometimes we conveniently just ignore it.Is this is there something in that?Do you agree?Yeah.Look, I think one thing I say is I don't actually think it's erring on the side of caution to think that animals are feeling like that.I think it's pretty well scientifically understood and it's not controversial that animals definitely are living in in the moment when they are living in the moment.
Just like when we're in the moment experiencing something, we're feeling or touching that that experience is going to be very similar between spaces given the.Similarity now in our brains anatomy.Yeah.So I forgot your original question because I just wanted to make that point.
No, that's good.Thank you for pointing that out.No, it wasn't so much a question as a statement.Just to say that it makes work almost harder because you have to now you have to think about it.Once you have that empathy, now you've got to do something about it, right?Yep, absolutely.It's harder until you say anytime you're learning something new, it's harder.
Absolutely.You got to put in more time and effort to address.Learning a new skill or thinking a new way.But then eventually it becomes normal and it's not really much more effort at all and you can connect better with your patients.So for example, me and other vets that I know that really get this well when they see these really stressed aggressive patients, it's not as stressful on the vet themselves because it's kind of like the difference between if.
You see someone, you know, maybe road rage, they're they're cutting off, they're beeping at you and you're like, oh, what an asshole.Like, I can't believe they did that.And you might get angry back at them and really upset versus if you see someone do that, but then you see that they're actually that they're mentally unwell, Like they're they're in tears and they've just cut you off and think, oh wow, they're actually really unhappy.
Maybe they've cut me off because they're driving to a funeral or something like that and they're stressed.And so I think that it can really help with the dog in the console if you can see that this dog actually isn't just a mean, nasty dog and you actually feel that, oh gosh, this poor thing.I feel bad for it.
It's still not going to be nice dealing with that dog, but it's I find for me it gives a buffer to some of that stress that you feel when you really understand that and when you actually see it in your patient.That's really cool because that's something I hop on about with client interactions, exactly what you talk about.
The client that acts in a way that you don't like because it's not the way you expect.Or they rude, or they short or like angry about money and stuff and having empathy or compassion for them, but not for the sake.Not for their sake.
For your sake.Because not having it is exhausting.It's exhausting to work like that versus going well.Yeah, you're angry about the money.I get it.I would be too.Let's find a solution.But I haven't thought about it that way, about my patients as well.You said the word that person who's an asshole, but how many asshole dogs, cats do you deal with?
And I get angry about it.That's the thing.I deal with 0I deal with none.No asshole patients, dogs or cats ever.Because to me, they're never assholes to me.They're always just suffering, like, and that's actually how I feel.I'm not lying.Yeah, that's a massive shift because I and I think I'm better at it as a mellow as I get older.
But I definitely used to get angry at my patients when they want to bite me.Or as you say, they sit and they bark or they you can't look in the eye because it's freaking out and you you want to go, you stupid fucking dog.Just I just want to do my job, just sit still.
It's so frustrating.But I like that that flip to go, you poor dog, this is terrible for you.Let's find a better way.Absolutely.And it's not a conscious thing for me.I just, I look at the dog and I just feel sad because it's it's just become so obvious to me when I can see a patient suffering and when they're sad and scared.
And I think it it does, it makes you a better bet.And it also means that you are able to actually, yeah, be safer as a vet if you can empathize, because if you can tell when they're scared, then you're going to be safer.You're less likely to be bitten because you're not going to press through their boundaries as much.
So yeah, it's all integrated, it's all so important.And yeah, it'll be it's it's a bit sad that, you know, there's not enough time in the vet course so that everyone can come out having this knowledge, but it's just how it is, unfortunately.Yeah, you kind of develop.
I I find that some of that develops with time the the understanding of the body language and starts coming naturally.But I still think the foundational knowledge, the understanding of where it comes from, is important.That's why I like your book, Dedication to difficult dogs and euphemism.
Difficult dog?I should have called it a dedication to asshole dogs or cats.Do you talk about cats in the book, by the way?I've read most hardly at all in this book.I have really strived for real accuracy as much as I can get it.
So I've got a PhD in dog behavior, and that's my real passion.And I feel like the type of writing I'm doing where I'm really trying to give the reader as accurate as possible an understanding of the of the true dog experience.I don't feel like I can do that with cats yet.
Like I've got a cat and I understand it well, but it's just not the same level of understanding.You know that narration of from the animal's point of view.Quick interruption.We're talking about difficult.Do you know what else is difficult?Being a practicing vet.
And just trying to remember all the important stuff that you've learned over the years, never mind staying up to date with what's new and what's important, without spending all of your free time reading journals or attending webinars and conferences.If you're new to this podcast, you might not know about our other podcasts, the clinical podcast series where I ask all the questions I've ever had about my tricky cases of the people who are the best in their field on that topic.
If you're a regular listener, you'd have already heard me go on about it.So I thought instead of me telling you how great these are, I'll read you a testimonial we got this week from one of our subscribers.This one is from Helen.And Helen says the thing I love most about the Vet Wealth clinical podcasts is that they deal with relevant clinical topics.
Not just the theory behind the disease, but how they clinically present, what to look out for and the latest information about what to do about the disease.I also love that it's the who's who of that disease that's getting interviewed.It's like going to a conference with the best dermatologist, the best endocrinologist and the best feline specialist all in the one place.
And I love that you but asks all those questions that you as a condition want to ask.The episodes are short, usually less than 30 minutes, so you can easily fit it into a busy day.And I also love love love the show notes and the website Helen.I love love love this e-mail and I love the work that you do.
Thank you very much.Our Clinical Podcasts live at VVN.Dot supercast.com You won't find them on your podcast player until you've signed up.Okay back to Dennis.So let's focus on the dog part of it then.
Difficult dogs.Aggression.Destructive behavior.Digging, barking.All the behavior issues that we get asked about or that we see in our patients.Because the subtitle of your book is A Heartwarming Tail Shedding Light on Canine Mental Health.And that reframe that those things that we don't like in our patients, it's not a bad dog, It's a mental health problem.
Is that that's my take away from the book?Absolutely.Yeah.In so many cases that is so a good little way of thinking about it is if you're going to change your behavior, an animal or a human, if that behavior has got a very strong emotional motivation behind it, then it's going to be very hard to change in the moment.
So just think, if someone's really angry or really sad, if they're doing something, it's going to be harder to change their behavior than if they're calm.If your house is being robbed and you, you know you're looking at your partner and you say, hey, can you go and do the dishes for me?They're much less likely to be able to do it while your house is being robbed.
Then when it's not because emotionally they're they're just coping with the current emotions in the way that they best can.And so if there's an animal that is really fearful and worried, and so they're barking because they're scared, for example, if it's a dog, then training that dog to be quiet, you're not just training your behavior there, you're actually dealing with trying to counteract a strong emotional motivation.
And so, yeah, these emotionally driven behaviors have got such a strong motivation behind them that changing them is very difficult.If you're trying to ask for a change, that means that they can't cope with that emotion anymore.It's very difficult.Basically what it means is that the difficult dogs, the ones with difficult behaviors to fix, they're pretty much all ones with behaviors that are emotionally driven, right?
So the behaviors that aren't emotionally driven, there's plenty of them as well that they're just doing because they're doing.They're very easy to fix, very easy to change.The dog isn't really strongly motivated to do them.And so all the emotionally, like, strongly emotionally driven behaviors are due to mental health problems.
The difficult behaviors.So like embarking, aggression, destruction, all of that.If they're hard to fix, then there's probably some stress or anxiety causing them.Give me an example of an easy fix one.I'm just trying to keep track of what we're saying.So a behavior that we don't like that's gonna be easy to fix.Yeah, absolutely.
So a good way of thinking of all of the puppy behaviors that are normal.So just like a dog that's chewing up things that they're not meant to, right?And then you just put those things out of reach and you leave them things that they're meant to chew, and they'll chew those things up and they won't chew the other things up.They'll go out of habit.Eventually, you won't need to keep the shoes away because they are so used to chewing everything else that they've been taught to chew.
That's just they happen and that's what they do.That behavior is not emotionally driven.It's it's a behavior.I'm a puppy.I'm exploring the world.I'm chewing.I'm not chewing because I'm anxious.I'm chewing because I'm.Like a great white shark, I always say puppies remind me of everything has to be chewed.
And that's why it's easier to fix completely, right?Yeah.It's just a normal behavior as long as their needs are being met, right.That's the other side to the coin.Like, yes, they're going to be difficult.If if they're simply being completely deprived of of stimulus and they're in an empty room, then yeah, they're going to start chewing anything that's there and they might be really stressed, but then again, it becomes an emotional thing.
So yeah, for a normal little puppy, yeah, they're exploring the world.Absolutely.They're chewing because they're they're teething because they're interested, because that's fun.And so, yeah, there's not a strong negative emotional driver there versus in a mental health condition.There's some dogs that when they're left alone, they get so stressed that to cope with that stress and anxiety, they have to destroy something because it gives them a job to do.
It's it's enjoyable to destroy something for them.Like in the moment they they're enjoying it and it's helping them to cope.And so because it's what they have to do, because they're so stressed and it's their way of dealing with it, that is then a strong emotional motivation to that behavior and it's going to be difficult to fix it.
Trying to think of a comparison in in humans like to aid to make the sink in for myself more and also to explain that to a client maybe OCD or something.So if someone really they get really stressed, if the bench is is dirty and they have to keep it clean and if it's dirty at all, they get extremely stressed and they have to clean it versus someone that just cleans the bench For the house to be tidy and then think about how hard it's going to be.
If your goal was that you wanted to have stuff on the bench because you needed it out there, to use how hard it's going to be to keep that bench cluttered with someone around that's got OCD that has to clean it, you're going to have a battle on your hands versus someone that isn't so obsessive about it.That's off the cuff example that's maybe not perfect, but.
Yeah, so, so what's the neurology behind that?I know part of your background is you you did.Is it in neuroscience or neurology as well?What happens neurotransmitter wise when that dog is destroying the couch because he's anxious that makes him want to do more of it.
So what I'll say firstly is just a disclaimer.So because I've yeah, I've done a neuroscience, behavioral neuroscience in my undergrad before vet school.And basically, one of the key takeaways I took is that whenever you read something where there's like a simplified explanation for how things work in terms of neuroscience, it's probably simplified and it's not the whole picture because it is never simple.
So basically what's going on in a broad overview, I believe in a lot of those cases is so the dog's got a negative emotion like anxiety, and so they're feeling stressed and worried.And the brain is why that when it's in a state of distress or you know, that alarm system, that anxiety and fear, when those bells are ringing in the brain, that it worries about basically survival and needing to survive.
So it looks for to produce behaviors in the animal that will aid with survival and getting safety.And so if that's not an ability, if they can't get back to you and get safety, they've got to do something like doing nothing is not an option.
They need to do something in these dogs and so they're gonna peak to do something that has some reward, some intrinsic enjoyable value, and that also helps get rid of their frustration.So a bit like punching A punching bag for a person or something physical outlet that they can help to deal with some underlying stress.
So doing nothing, sitting there and having your worry and stress ruminate in your mind is often something that we recoil against.You know, we we go to screens or exercise or something to do with it.Drinking, there's all sorts of things we do to cope.And so dogs that have many options and chewing up something and chewing things it it, it is an enjoyable behavior for dogs.
You know, there's endorphins released.You know, there's opiates in the saliva that's produced from chewing things up and it's an active behavior, which means that they can feel like, like they're going to have it an underlying need and want to do something active.Some of these dogs so depends on their coping style, but a lot of dogs want to do something active, but not all of them.
That's the personality thing, how they're responding to their stress.That's why all dogs don't do that.But the ones that do, they need something active to do.That's why they're being destructive.And there's the same go for barking.The ones that will get complaints from the neighbors or the one in hospital where you put it in a cage and that cannot shut up.
Is that the same thing?It's an active thing.It is absolutely it's active.And you know, it varies in terms of I think how much they're thinking about and deciding to do it versus it's sort of just a knee jerk reaction.So with barking, I think it's a lot like crying in people.
So there's lots of causes of barking in dogs.Obviously it can be all sorts of communication and things like that.But for the dogs that are really panicking and stressed that have got that repetitive bark when they're left alone, I do think it's very similar to to crying and and whaling and people.And so it's why do people cry and wail when they're sad?
I don't know.It's cathartic.Like you kind of just do it.You can't help it.It just comes out and it's just a a reaction to your emotions.Yeah.And I think that's very similar to what we see in dogs, particularly when there's fear or or stress or anxiety causing it.
Yeah.It makes me feel really bad for how frustrated you get at work when there's the dog.That won't stop barking.And again, how angry you get at it and and now you just tell me it's not, it's not barking for fun.It's crying and wailing And then you go in there and say, oh, just and I know you don't mean it, but you want to go.
Just shut up already.I've given it, yeah.Don't feel bad at all, Hugh, because it's normal.It's because you have some degree of empathy that that even happens.So just thinking humans, if you're in a house and there's someone crying next to you, it brings down the mood.
You get a bit sad yourself.That emotion sort of spreads just like in, you know, in flocks and herds of animals.If one animal gets really anxious and and bolts, the whole herd is on edge.So emotions spread through social animal groups.They spread like fast at the speed of of our brains.
They spread through smells, through through behaviors, through actions, through pheromones.And so you are actually catching the emotion off the stressed dog, and you're feeling the stress because that's what they're feeling.And so just the same way as if someone's yelling angrily next to you, you start to feel similar, like scared or upset like they might be feeling when they're yelling.
So it's human nature.It's mammalian nature.It's just how it is.You don't have to feel bad, but I think what happens is then how you deal with that feeling when you get it.So you do get that initial stress and and anxiety for or or worry or from hearing that ear splitting bark and you're going to get that feeling.
I get it too.But then it's after you get that you stop and think, okay, how am I going to deal with this emotion myself?Because again, over the years you do also get used to switching off to some of those signals.You know, it'll be a barking dog and you got a busy day and you got surgery to do with the ones barking.
And the nurses keep coming and saying that dog's really barking and then you want to say, yeah, just just ignore it.I've got stuff to do.But no that it's upset that it really does probably need some sort of attention.Can you give it it's premed the premedication injection early or something like that?
Like, is there an option around it?Does it have to be given just half an hour before the surgery?Can it be given an hour and a half or or whatever?Yeah.What about and?I don't want to turn this into a whole behavior consult Behavior for Dummies, but it is fascinating.It's more about the mind shift in the way that we think about it that I think I want to get out of this for vets listening to it.
But what about aggression?What about the?And again, for us, practically, the ones that we worry about for selfish reasons are the ones that get bitey spicy, like they call it in spicy cats.In the consult room that I'm assuming that's an anxiety thing, right?
The dog that wants to have a go to you, it's because it's scared for the vast majority of them, Absolutely, yeah.So we can talk about exceptions if you want, but yeah, if you just had the rule in your mind that they're that they're biting you or attacking because they're scared, you'd be right 98% of the time, I reckon fear and and anxiety.
And I get it.Like, you know, imagine that you couldn't speak the language of your doctors and you go to there and they can't tell you what they're going to do and they just start jabbing needles into you.Like a lot of us would get pretty scared too.Makes sense?Yeah, I always joke and say if I if it was socially acceptable, I would definitely bite the dentist.
I haven't shitting myself.What about the whole?Like what we used to call the dominant dog?And I immediately think about the right Violet that's there.And I look at it and I go, You don't look scared of me at all.You are just you're just going.
I'm stronger than you touch me and die, bitch.Is that a thing?Or is that is that still fear at the heart of it, Absolutely still fear.So there's a lot of bravado involved, you know, so kind of like if you're about to go into, if you as a person are about to fight someone else, a lot of people will act very tough and macho.
They'll act as strong as they can in order to intimidate their opponent and scare them off.It's a really common tactic in the behavior world, is that you actually want to avoid aggression by having a display that shows your opponent that you're going to be so strong and tough that they shouldn't even bother trying to fight you.
Then you don't risk being injured as being the other animal and you can still win that confrontation and get out of it what you want.So if this rot Wheeler can scare you so well that you didn't even bother trying to do any of your best stuff to it, you just leave it alone, then that's actually what they want.So they're going to act as tough and as strong as they can.
And in on the inside, they're just a big baby and Rottweiler owners will tell you that when they're on the couch next to them, they tell you these dogs, they're just big soaks, big babies.They're sweethearts.It's just they've learnt to deal with their fear and worry by using aggression to stop bad things happening to them.
And I kind of, I get it.I get why you do that.So what do we do with this two scenarios again for So the way I see behavior for vets practically clinically in your daytoday work.So now and again you have that chapter in the book about the the two different anxious dogs visiting the vet hospital which are super insightful.
I think most vets should read that to have that empathic.A view of what it's like for these dogs.But we have to get pets and the nurses in the clinic too because you know how many times I've seen a nurse that goes well, they're holding the patient and trying to just that mindset of no, no, no, you're doing the wrong thing trying to teach the dog a lesson when they're already stressed and and worried and scared and yeah, it's all cats as well.
And I think if they read the book, they wouldn't do that anymore, if you know what I mean.Like that?Would it be their go to?And it's maybe too big a topic, but what are good resources to go on?What else should I do?Because the reality is we have to get a job done.So if you have that patient in there that cannot be examined or is too aggressive for IS, this is just drugs.
OK, well, I can't deal with you have drugs.It's a mixture of everything, you know, I mean, yeah, absolutely.I mean, yeah, drugs are part of the picture.Absolutely.I think in terms of resources like become a fearfree accredited vet, like it's going to be a really good first step to trying to go down this path and look at, you know, having some of your nurses and some of your staff do it as well or even become a fearfree clinic is one option if you want to look at ways of getting stuff done with less of the fear.
But what it boils down to really is that you can get better at making a call early, earlier, before you've already stuffed around for ages as to whether or not a patient is going to be able to be, to have done to it what you need to do without medications or not.
So oftentimes I will touch an animal and be like, no, that's it.We're not doing this procedure.I'm not even going to actually attempt it.I just stop it there before I've actually attempted because I know that it's going to end badly.And you know, a lot of people, I see them, they they start trying to what can we get away with, what can we do and get away with?
And they'll start trying to do what they need to do.And the animal pipe a little bit.They're like, oh, maybe we'll just try a little bit more and they try more and the animal escalates and escalates and then they say stop at the point when the animals biting them.But I think it's better to stay stop before that and at the point when the animal just looks too stressed and rather than saying, OK, we've got to get things done without getting bitten, say OK, we've got to get things done without traumatizing our patients.
Because if you're not traumatizing your patients, you're not getting bitten.I'm so guilty of that I just.Just gonna try.We're almost there.I just need.I'm almost there.Just and again.It's a time thing because you're busy.You're gonna get stuff done.You're gonna get through the day.It's an inconvenience for the clients to go.
Hey, listen, I can't, I can't do this something simple.You know it's the and it's the small things that are the frustrating things.I just want to look down his ear.I just want to make an ear smear or a quick look at this and then to go, I'm going to admit you, I'm going to update an estimate.I've got it.The kinds of the go away and come back later and that's what I said earlier.
It's sometimes it's easier to ignore these things to be blind to it.I just go, it's OK.I just need to get through my day and once you I find personally what helps me is if I start on that journey and go, I'm going to try doing this.I have to set metrics for myself beforehand to say I'm going to try once and I'll say to the clients I want to try to do this.
The dog seems a bit nervous.I want to look down his ears and have one go, but literally go not past one go.If it's a stressful event then and I tell the nurses beforehand, help me see and hold his head.I want to see if I can look down his ear, I'll have a go.If it's not going to work, will it will today?
Because otherwise if I don't draw that line then I'll just push it over.Just one more go, just one more try.Still guilty of it, unfortunately.Absolutely.And the other thing that I think I'd add to that is that also a lot of times I see dogs being muzzled or cats muzzled and then the vets then going on to do their examination with the animal muzzled because it's safe to continue.
But the animal is still being traumatized so much that personally.I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it now.There's heaps of exceptions to that where I would just do it like where an animal needs immediate attention and it must be seen to be right then and there.But I have many times seen a dog being muzzled and then had its temperature taken for a vaccination, and the onus says it's perfectly healthy at home.
It is stressed and panting in the room.What are you going to do with a high temperature anyway on that animal?Like it's going to come in with a high temperature every time it visits the clinic, and yet you're doing, you know?Sticking a smaller up their bottom, which could be the reason that this dog became aggressive in the 1st place.And just because you can do it doesn't mean you should be because then next time they're coming in, they've had that traumatic experience with you and then they're going to be even more fearful and they'll just escalate from visit to visit.
So I think the issue is that when you have a muzzle on an animal, I think that it's really important to still treat them as though they don't have a muzzle on.And be really careful and gentle and slow as though they could still bite you because then you're going to be more, less threatening to them, I guess.
I think you're not going to push through their boundaries as much.And you're going to do like the minimum that you have to do while they're awake because it's not just about, you know, preventing physical pain in our patients, it's about preventing emotional pain as well, like.If you can think about your duty of care as a vet that you want to help your patients and help them feel better, are you going to be just treating physical pain or are you going to treat mental pain as well?
Because if you think about welfare and and humans for example, like if I think about the most horrible experiences in my life, they were all mental traumatic experiences.None of them were pain related.And I think for most people they'd say the same thing.So I just feel like it's just important to keep that in mind.
I guess that as vets, you know, it's we're going to be treating these animals and making their lives better.We've got to.Not just look at it medically, but look at it from a behavior point of view as well.Just part of the picture.How did this become a thing for you Dennis?How did your career journey lead you to caring this much about behavior?
Were they stand out events or is it just a gradual slide?You know, that's a really good question.I must seem like such a.I don't know if it's it, but maybe like a lovey dovey, like in touch with nature and feelings and emotions person.
But I'm not like that's not where I started at all.Like it comes from understanding.It actually doesn't come from feeling like.I don't think I was a particularly empathetic person in in my life.It's just that it's come through a deep understanding of what's really going on that's led me to feel it because it's like.
I learned it.It wasn't intuitive at all, It just came through understanding.It's an.I don't know if that makes any sense.It's yeah, it's 100%.Well, it's that classic saying of once you see it, you can't Unsee it once you get.It what happened to me, once you get it, you can't unget it, right?So how did that learning happen?
Was it an active process?Was that part of your pregrad stuff that you did, or what was your journey to it?It's just been everything, you know cuz.I've always loved the brain, actually.And I've thought the brain is really cool and the way the brain causes behavior and it's just one step after another.
You know, I did my neuroscience, behavioral neuroscience undergrad, then I did my vet degree, and then I did my PhD in dog behavior.And there's yeah, it's a lifelong thing.I guess I I couldn't really pick one thing.And I don't know when there wasn't like a lightbulb moment where it switched on.
It's like the this understanding, it's just.It's just slowly opened up.I guess it's just struck me now that statement you made there that you must seem like a lovey dovey, you know, highly empathetic.And that's kind of the maybe that's why a lot of people are also resist behavior because it feels like it's that sort of field and there's the stigma of yeah, it's the different kind of it's who end up in behavior that I'm a scientist.
I want to know the facts and I wonder problem solution done out the door where is this is softer it's not as clear cut what feels that way but I what I get from speaking to you is that is not that not clear cut.It's actually much more clear cut that we think that right it is more it is a science.
It's not such a science.Or absolutely right branch of visionary science.Absolutely right.So it used to be, I think, that human psychology was naturally not a science at one stage.And so.I think it's a bit of carryover from that as well.And you know, with science, science is all about measuring things and experimenting and having variables that can be measured, hypothesis that can be tested.
And the thing about behavior is that the measurements and the variables, it's just more difficult.So it can be done.It's just more difficult.There's not like just a blood test you can do that just gives you, you know, hematocrit.That's a nice round Number that you can then use.It's actually not that simple.
And so.Especially, yeah, I think, and the other issue to it as well is that everyone's got an opinion and everyone intuitively thinks they know what knows what's going on.But there's a real sort of Dunning Kruger effect thing here where like the less you know, the more you think you know.
And it's in the big way in the behavioral sciences.So a lot of people think they've got it all figured out, but they really, they just don't know what they don't know.And that's a very common experience I've seen that kind of leads nicely into something else.I wanted to ask you about that off topic of the behavior stuff.
But when I prepared for this, I saw that you gave a talk a while ago about looking at a scientific paper or research article or something and critically evaluating it as whether this is good science or not and whether I should believe this, which is for me personally, I I should learn that skill because I just go well, if it's a scientific journal, that's obviously fact, I'll just believe what's on there.
Have you got any quick takeaways on how to get better on that or is it a long talk?Look, I think it's it's not so much a quick take away on how to quickly get good at it.It's kind of like, you know, speaking to a high school student and saying, you know, a quick tip on how to be a good vet when you work to start work tomorrow.
Like, there's a lot, a lot to know.But but saying that there's some useful information so many years on in a PhD that it took me to learn to analyze a paper well.And part of it is knowing understanding the field if you don't understand the field in which the paper's written.
If you want to critically evaluate it, that's going to be very difficult.But for you, for example and a paper in emergency medicine, you know, you might be able to critically evaluate that because that's your field.And so then when you're looking at at the, the paper then yeah, there's a few tips that I've got.So one of them is a bit of a hang up around statistics.
So you kind of just unless you understand statistics well, you kind of just have to go on the.Expertise and word of the author of the paper.And that's a big leap of faith.So you can't critically evaluate a study if you don't understand the statistics used.
You can't do a proper analysis of that study.And so if you don't understand statistics, I hate to say it, but it's not going to be like that's a big gap you can always have.And you don't have to be a genie static.You can learn little bits of statistics and it's going to take a lot longer than we all go here.
But one of my biggest hang ups is people just harping on about the number of participants in the study.So, you know, if there's a study with 20 cats in it, for example, then someone must say look, oh look, you know, there's only 20 patients in this one, whereas this other study over here had 1000 cats in it.
So that one's obviously better because it's got a bigger number.And that's sort of superficial look, and that's actually not even true.What matters is actually the statistical power.And so you can have a a study with 1000 cats that only needed to use 20 cats to find its solution and then they've done experiments on an extra 920 cats for no good reason.
And that's extremely unethical, because they actually could have known after only testing a small number of cats, they could have proven far beyond a reasonable doubt that their study.They could have proven its conclusions.And so then they've gone ahead and used way more pets than is necessary.So that's one thing that can happen and the other thing that can happen is that if they use large number of patients to find a result, that's because there's actually hardly any effect of the actual treatment.
So the reason they had to use so many animals is because it does next to nothing and you need to test so many animals to find a small effect size.So I guess I just my take away would be that basically look for consensus across the field rather than an individual study to base things off.
So if you're seeing a whole bunch of papers and they're all concluding the same thing, then you're relying on the expertise of the field.And I think that's a more important skill is to be wide read and to read a bunch of papers on a similar topic is actually going to be a better skill than trying to just read one paper and critically evaluate it because it's going to be very hard to do that.
That's a clearly good advice.So if you see something that you think, wow, this is, this is amazing, it's brand new, go and confirm it, see if there's any, any other data that backs it up at least.Or if there's 10 conflicting papers, then probably maybe don't put too much value in any one of those papers.
So back to behavior then is the the other part then.So we talked about dealing with patients in clinic, but the other part then is the behavior consult.And from what we've discussed so far, these are complicated problems.That's not a quick fix.You're not going to have a 10 minute consult and I think that's why so many of us resisted as well.
What's the take away for the the non behavior GP vet who now after hearing this can't unhear it and will start spotting anxiety and problems like that?Either that spotting something in a consult that you think on this might be a problem behavior, or somebody coming in and saying my dog chews, what should I do?
Or my dog won't stop barking.Why do we do?What's the advice?Look, I think that it's always important to understand that there's a range of different problems and it's not going to be A1 size fits all approach.
And so, you know, there's going to be, for example, dogs that you can tell are really stressed and the owners saying that they like that at home as well.And then.They might not want to seek treatment.So in that situation, it's about getting the owner to empathize.So not if you're empathizing already.Maybe the owner isn't.
So it's often good to just spend 30 seconds saying, hey, look, see your dog's panting.They're pacing, they're barking, they're stressed and scared.So a lot of owners actually don't even know that.So if you've just learned that and now you know it, make sure you just convey that to the owner and it doesn't take long, but it can really help the owner come on side for trying to help the animal as well.
And then the next step is Okay, well, what you do about it.So yes, there's absolutely going to be referral is always going to be best.And if you've done that and you've gotten your owner to empathize with the patient already, then they're more likely to accept referral.But they won't always.
And like I said, different patients, different people step through your door.You actually do need to make sure you have a spectrum of care available so that it's not referral or nothing.A lot of.Vets, I feel they speak to a case and they're like okay, so they didn't accept referral.So it's not my problem.
I've told them about the behavior specialist and they said no, so we can't help them and there's nothing there for them.But that is not good medicine.That's not a good spectrum of care that you're offering that patient.Because you know what if we did that for, you know, all of our other medical and surgical cases, we just offered them referral or nothing.
You don't.You end up just doing the best you can under the circumstances so.The next best down option is to then go out and try and help the patient yourself or have a vet in your clinic that helps the patient themselves.And so that means yes, in a lot of cases trying a medication that might help them feel better and feel less stressed is an absolutely a good idea and any CPD can get on that.
It's great you know just so you can know a little bit more about it but yeah giving it a shot and understanding that it's always a trial and and just seeing how the patient responds and.Get the pay owner back in and then have a chat about how they're going on this medication.Don't just prescribe it and then not book any follow-ups.But then the other side to treating behavior is your advice, your behavior plan, your environmental modification plan and all of that.
So I really think that you do need to be providing something.And if you're not providing anything and just providing medications, they're going to find that advice somewhere, anywhere.They're going to Google.They're going to maybe find a trainer that uses punishment.I saw online and I asked a question the other day about what to do with their dog that's on climepramine and using a shock collar at the same time.
I'm like, whoa, OK, so we've got a medication to reduce anxiety and a shock collar to increase anxiety.Like, what's going on here?But this is not good.So clients will find.Things to do and we need to be providing some advice because owners really trust us.
We're a real authority and if we tell them what to do, they really trust us.But obviously we're not going to have the time or the knowledge though are we to do that and that's that done in Kruger effect.Again, where as a vet I know enough to know that I don't know enough.But then because of that I don't say anything.
When people, especially, I've got the cop out As an emergency vet, I go, look, I'm in the emergency vet, you got a problem.That's not my problem.And and I'll say to people, I I think you should go see behaviorless because I don't know enough to give you sensible advice.And then they go online and then they find Mr. Trainer with the shock collars and you've got to dominate.
You got to be in charge of the dog, that sort of stuff.Which is worse than nothing.Absolutely.Yeah, really bad.So then, you know, obviously things like handouts and information sheets can be useful, but they're not that I guess tailored to the patient in the case.So that's also where.Obviously there's my own conflict of interest here that I've got my website that I've had it up and running for a few years, the ABBA dog website that allows owners to get customized behavior, modern environmental mod based on their questionnaire answers that they do online through our website.
So it's like a custom plan for them that's not going to be as good as referral, but it's about spectrum of care.So it's providing something that's way better than Google or just a standard handout.It's going to be specific for their dog.And it will give them lots of stuff they can work on.And yeah, it's going to be honest that that won't raid it or won't do it or whatever, and you can't help them.
But I think it's almost like a duty of care to at least if you've provided it, then at least you've done what you can.You've led the horse to water, you can't force it to drink.And so I actually use that as a hurdle requirement for any animals going on meds because I think that it's part of the complete treatment plan if they're not.
They're gonna take up on a referral and they're gonna have medications for their patient.I feel like it's my duty of care to provide something that's gonna help the patient have more complete treatment package rather than just one little part of it, the treatment which is medications.Yeah.Last time we spoke and for anybody listening, we have had dentists on the clinical podcast where we did talk about sensible medication choices and all those sort of things as well.
But when we spoke last time, every dog was your kind of your new baby.You had a real human baby on the way, but that was your new baby at the time.That's what that's a couple of years now, a year or almost maybe a little bit more than a year ago.How's the Abbot dog going?What's the the uptake and what are the the outcomes that you're seeing from it?
It's going really well.So I've been to a few conferences now since I've seen you and had a little booth there and we've got a bunch of vets that are signing up there's.It's hard to measure hat usage because not every vet sees a behavior case every day.But basically we've got a good fifty clinics around Australia that are using it.
What I'd say is regularly they're adding up to a lot, a lot of a lot of people using a lot of patients, a lot of vets using it and some of them very regularly.And so it is.Yeah it is growing nicely because I think vets realized that it's a really handy option to have in their arsenal like up their sleeve things.
Another thing they can do quick plug for it.Dennis, how does it work again?So you've got the website and let's say I'm in a consult, the owner ask me or I I identify that that staff he has an anxiety problem.Big surprise.But I don't have an hour to talk about it.
So what I I do, I subscribe as the clinic or the client subscribe who pays for what to use the service and then a quick recap of what the service does for us.Yeah, absolutely.So, like, the whole thing is designed to be like the easiest it possibly can be and to save as much time as possible from the vet's point of view.
So there's a couple of ways.The easiest way is just to jump online and just use it in a consult with no prior knowledge.So if next time you have a behavior case, you just go to abbotdog.com and you click the Send Questionnaire button.So an owner identifies that you know there's a behavior problem.
Click the Send questionnaire button.You put in the owner's e-mail address and your e-mail address at the VEC clinic, and you just click Sent and then it will do the rest.So just let the owner know that they're going to get a questionnaire sent to them for them to do when they get home.So this is the easy way of doing it.The client then pays it home, online, they do the questionnaire and then they get a customized behavior plan sent to them.
And you get a copy of that too.But what you also get is a history summary report based on their answers.So you can see the the summarized version of the problems that this dog is having, which is a good one because taking a history can take a while for behavior cases.So this way if you've got a lot of prompts there and a lot of information that you can just plug into your history.
So that's good as well.And then that's basically what the service provides.And so you then know they've got a little.Behaviour mode, environmental mode.Plan to sit alongside any medications they might be on and then it's a good idea to get the owner back in and have another chat to them for another console and see how the Mets are going and everything else.
And you'll find that a lot of what the questions that they would have asked you are already answered in the report.So if they ask questions, so just have another look through your report, you might find some answers in there.That's basically how that works.But there is another option.You can sign your clinic.Up to it.
And the benefit of that is that then you can actually you get a free trials to use yourself for clinic members or that you can send to clients for free and have a go with it.And also and actually we might pop a link also in the show notes maybe to that if you like and through the vet fault you can get some extra free uses of it.
So that would be good.Hey, quick side note.Then this has created a link that will give Vet Vault listeners a bunch of free extra trial runs with ABBA Dog so you can try it out for free in your next few behavior consoles.I've put the link in the show description so once you've parked your car, not while you're driving, please pause the audio and click on that highlighted ABBA Dog link in the show description in whatever app you're listening to this and it should take you straight there.
Full disclosure, if you use this link, then the vet vault will receive a small Commission each time you use the product, so you'll save time get better results for your patients.And you'll be supporting the podcast, which I feel is a win for everyone.OK, thanks.And then that means that you can then send one to the client that they don't have to pay for that you've already paid for and the clinic can buy them at half price and you can just bundle that into the cost of your consult.
You can charge the client whatever you want for it.You can do it however you want.The benefit of that is that then if they paid for it, they're more likely to do it.But then the downside of it is you have to spend the time selling it.So they've both got their pros and cons.Either way, it's got their pros and cons, so there's a solution for everyone, and at the core it's easy to use, just have to try.
I just like it because it is that and it comes back to what we said right at the beginning.The reason we don't want to engage with behavior is I don't know where to begin.I've got to do something, but I don't know what other than referring it.So then I just do nothing.And this is something and it's something good, it's something that you can do and it's not time consuming.
That's it takes that burden of my God I don't have.I've got 7 consults waiting and I still need to go do that spay and now I've got this freaking behavior consult.This goes, uh, huh, here's fast way you're going to get all the information you need.I don't have to sit here for 40 minutes and asking you about all these things and I and I'm going to forget 5 questions.
So I love it.It's a great idea where we're going to get a service like this for medical problems where the client can go.Well, there you go.Before you come in, do this questionnaire and it's going to come in and tell me all the things that I should be thinking about, like an AI.That would be great.
I would, yeah.I think that's a really good idea for history, just for the history that you could have a nice little list of some of the problems that the owners identified and then you can ask all your followup questions you like.But just having that to start on can sometimes speed things up.You know, how how long do you spend asking owners about different toxins, You know, as an emergency bet that they might have come into contact with, you know, any garbage they might have eaten like snail bait, rat bait.
Whereas if they could have that all written down, then you could just say, oh, I see here you ticked that there were no toxins.You read through those, you didn't see any design in the house and then the owner can say, Yep, so that you can move on or maybe we'll find something.So.How we done doing that already?Because you're right, it's the same.
Consults have the same sort of questions.So come in with your gastro patient.I'm going to ask you about food and about toxins and about, blah blah blah and about.And yet, stupidly, we still spend 10 minutes asking the same questions.Why is it not done beforehand?Why is it not?Surely there's a?
A I check GPT that could do this for me so that by the time I walk into my council I have my information and and a little summary of Oh yeah, you're in southeast Queensland.The dog is these signs.It's this old.Keep in mind the following five dd's.It's just a anyways, I've just given somebody a business idea, it'd be great.
I've thought of doing something like this for a long time, but you can only do so much in this world.There's only so many hours in the day.But yeah, it could be handy.I think the history taking is the best because then they can leave being a vet to being a vet.Like you can do all your diagnosis and all that, you know, all of that stuff.But if you got a really nice history that like has can just speed you up because then you got a whole bunch of information from the the client that they've already given you, then I think that could be handy.
Really handy.Yeah man, Then isn't we missing out on anything?I've loved this.I think we need to wrap up with our standard questions, but I have more time.Is there anything else that you'd like to cover or that do you like to get on a soapbox on and anything else?
What?Haven't I asked?No, not at all.I think that it's been really great.I think I just.I love my fellow vets in the profession.I think everyone's doing such a great job, you know, trying to be the best they can.And I hope I've just opened a few people's eyes to the world of behavior a bit more.
And people don't need to feel bad about not doing it, They need to just start trying to improve, that's all.Focus on the solution, not the problem.Stop worrying about how bad you are.Start spending a bit of time trying to improve on it.I had a thought this morning exactly on that.
I was listening to a book and talking about it's it's a book about leadership and about leading teams and.One of the things is we want to keep being better.But on the flip side, there's that idea of we also should be satisfied with what we're doing.
And I was thinking about how do you balance the desire to be better but also be satisfied with where you are.And that's a challenging thing.But I I think I I came up with a saying I'm going to have to think about this.Why don't I think you are always good enough but you're never as good as you could be is how I'm going to look at it from now on.
Good enough, but.They haven't reached my potential and that you'll never reach your potential because it's a it's a moving goal post.Yeah, sounds sounds good to me.I like it.I think so.So the pass along question I stuffed up.
So this is where I get the guest to ask a question for my next guest.But then in my interview yesterday I forgot to ask the question.I gave them the question and I like the answer so much that I forgot to ask.So I tried something.This morning I thought, well, if I don't have a guest to ask a question to give me the question to ask, I'm going to ask ChatGPT.
So I gave it this prompt.I said to ChatGPT.I have a podcast for veterinarians where I interview vets and people associated with the profession to help vets create sustainable careers.One of the questions I usually ask is to answer a question from the previous guest.Can you pretend to be a guest on my podcast and give me your question for my next guest, keeping in mind that you are likely a veterinarian or somebody associated with the profession?
And that the next guest will also be ChatGPT said.Sure I can help with that.As a professional in the veterinary field, we often face challenges that test not only our technical skills but also our emotional intelligence.Can you share an experience where you faced a particularly challenging situation, how you navigated through it, and what lessons you learned that could be beneficial for other veterinarians in their practice?
Here we go.The ChatGPT, this could be a this could become a section the ChatGPT question what I should have done is I should have I should type that into ChatGPT now and get it to give me an answer to tell you how's that No.
Look I think it chat TPT is it's it's amazing but it's it's I don't think people need to be completely as freaked out as some some people are.I don't think it's replacing us anytime soon.But look, challenging situations.As a vet, yeah, as a new grad, it was tough.
As a new grad, when I was a couple, you know, one or two years out, I still remember, you know, I I had my friends, I was working in my clinic, but I still felt very isolated at the time.And I think I was struggling with connecting with people as well as I could have.And I think it was in my related to my own mental health actually.
And it was a tough time.I think a lot of people would, you agree, can feel isolated despite being around people like feel alone yet and yet being in a bustling, busy practice and all that, it can be hard.And I just think that what I got out of it is that I did have that mindset of of wanting to grow and wanting to change and knowing that if I didn't change anything, things would just stay the same.
And so I started my own journey of mental health around then, which I'd sort of been oblivious to it my whole life.And I feel like I'm in a much better, happier place now in life than I was then.And it's never easy, but I just like to say it's worth trying to learn what, like with the Dunning Crigger, you don't know what you don't know.
That even applies to your own brain and your own thoughts and your own mind.And so much so that I, the stuff I know now about myself, like, it's just amazing compared to what I knew about myself 20 years ago.Like it's I have a completely different outlook on on myself and so that mindset, that growth mindset of wanting to learn about yourself and who you are and just to help yourself as a person to be happier and more you know more wholesome for the rest of your life and dedicating a bit of time to it and and I think it's just a really worthwhile thing and that's that's one thing I've learned from a tough time.
So when you said you.When you're struggling to connect with people, do you mean your colleagues or friends or people say you don't talk about clients, you're talking about your support network or your potential support network?Personally, it was sort of everyone, like, I think I was sort of withdrawing and isolating myself.
Yeah, due to being, I think, a little bit depressed and going through a lot of stress at the time.Were you or are you an introvert, Dennis?I don't know about introvert extrovert.I think that I personally have.I believe that I may be a little bit autistic and I've struggled a lot socially younger in life, and I sort of had to learn a lot of my social skills rather than just have them intuitively, which I do understand makes me seem a little bit weird to some people because I'm not just behaving naturally.
But I think a lot of vets are in the same boat as me and there's nothing wrong with that and it's it's just about learning.I think I'd still remember that I was really struggling to make eye contact with clients as a new grad.Really struggling to look them in the eye.Just felt really uncomfortable.
And it's easy now, but it was something had to learn because people expected it's normal.Yeah, that's why I'm asking because I feel like we are like that, right?Again, we always stereotype the typical vet student but often intelligent and many skills but social skills not top of the list.
And which, which is stressful because that's what you do, you're in front.And I've found the same, people always laugh.And I say I think I'm a bit into it because I have a podcast, but I find it wearing to spend all day talking to strangers.I can do it well and I've got skills, but it's it's exhausting.
And it was much more so as a youngster because you've got the added pressure.I've got to perform, I've got to seem smart even though I feel like I know nothing and then be this outgoing connected.Human being.And I think it's one of the things that makes it so hard.Do you have any short advice on how to get better at that for somebody who's listening to this going Yes.
Yeah, I find that really hard.Yeah.I'll first say like, yeah, I completely agree with you on the social exhaustion side of things.I think that I didn't realize it for a long time.But on the days when I was consulting and saying client after client after client, I did really well for the first four hours socially, really, really well.
And I didn't even realize that for the second-half of that shift, for the next four or six hours, that I was actually performing much worse socially.Much, much worse because I was exhausted mentally from the tire of having to do it.And so I think even just identifying that in yourself can help give yourself a bit of a break and not being so hard on yourself.
Realizing that that that's a normal thing that can happen to anyone and that there's nothing wrong with it.And that then if later in the day you do find that, geez, that you just feel like you're just going through the motions and that you're not connecting to clients or whatever, that you've got a reason for that.And it's not that you're a bad vet, it's just you're tired and if you could have 4 hour shifts every day, you'd be fine.
Like, that's my example for me.But you know, it's just, I think knowledge is power with this kind of thing.And really it's like I said before, that introspective journey into your own mind can be really useful trying to figure out, spending time figuring out why things are going on.
There's another podcast, actually, that I think you mentioned before that you might ask me about other podcasts out.There, and that's the question.What podcast are you listening to?Let's go.So there's one that I really like personally.I was an am a little bit of a computer gamer at times.
And so there's a podcaster called Healthy Gamer Gigi, and he's actually a Harvard psychiatrist that does a little bit of gaming on the side, but he's a Harvard psychiatrist and he is a very, very smart man that does these podcasts about mental health.
And apart from little side quotes about games that come few and far between, pretty much the podcasts are mostly just on mental health and the struggles and challenges of life.And I find that his insight and his understanding are amazing.And I've actually learned stuff off him that I think has made my animal behavior knowledge better as well because of how I feel, how deeply he understands the human mind.
And yeah, I think it's been really beneficial listening to a lot of his podcasts.Cool.That sounds like one that's definitely going on the list.Game.I have zero interest in games, but maybe I should listen to it just so I can understand.Because I've got kids who obviously want a game and I'm like, no, games are bad and maybe I should broaden my horizons and see can you be a healthy gamer?
Yeah, it's a mental health podcast, it really is.It's just it's got the computer gamer.How can I say marketing aspect to try and get gamers to use it, like that's pretty much all it comes down to.And when you listen to it like you don't need to play games at all to get so much out of it.
So much.OK, Gold.All right.Your last question and maybe we answered it already in our previous discussion, but you have an opportunity to speak to all the vet new grads of the world.Maybe it's this podcast if we can get all of them to listen and you've got a couple of minutes to give them one little bit of advice.
What is Dr. Dennis's advice?I would just say, and this is a bit biased, do some behavior, CVA go do some do.Do a fear free certification like just a little bit because you've been disadvantaged by graduating from a vet school curriculum that just doesn't put enough time into behavior and just I think you'll get out of it so much more than what you put in.
So I think just do it.Are there other similar things to the fear free?I've seen discussions online about Should I do fear free?Are there other options?Is that the?Cuz it's tried and tested, and I know lots of people speak really highly of it, but are they similar things?Good question.
I don't know.I actually don't know.Yeah, so I'd say that there's lots of, like, CBE courses and stuff on behavior.There's just the behavior streams at the conferences.You know, a lot of the conferences have got amazing behavior streams that you can go along to, and they're really entertaining, really interesting talks, and they're pitched for general practice vets that you know don't don't know too much about behavior.
And yeah, we're all really friendly and happy to answer all your questions, so should absolutely come along.It's so funny because it's that classic thing of.You'd want to go to the things that you know about and kind of avoid the things you feel stupid.So at conference I always see the behavior stream and I normally don't go because I go it's not my thing.
So let's talk more about emergency, the stuff I'm good at already and maybe sometimes opening your mind a bit and going, maybe I maybe I don't like behavior because I know nothing.Let me go and dip a toe in the water.Absolutely.That's my advice you well summed up.Dennis, thank you so much for this time.
Every time I chat to you, I have a.Shift or a light bulb moment.So thank you for doing it, and thank you for chatting to us again.And I hope that a couple of other people have some paradigm shifts.Yeah, me too.Absolutely.I love, always love having a chat about this kind of stuff.So yeah, thanks for having me on.
Before you disappear, I wanted to tell you about our new weekly newsletter.I speak to so many interesting people and learn so many new things while making the podcasts.So I thought I'd create a little summary each week of the stuff that stood out for me.We call it the Vet Vault 321 and it consists of firstly 3 clinical pearls.
These are three things that I've taken away from.The clinical podcast episodes, my light bulb moments, the penny dropping, any new facts and the stuff that we need to know to make all the other pieces fit.Then two other things this could be quotes, links, movies, books, a podcast, highlight, anything that I've come across outside of Clinical Wedding.
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Dr Dennis Wormald