Oct. 6, 2023

#103: 'The More You Tell People, The Less They’ll Remember': Learning To Teach. With Dr Toby Trimble

#103: 'The More You Tell People, The Less They’ll Remember': Learning To Teach. With Dr Toby Trimble
Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon RSS Feed podcast player icon
Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon RSS Feed podcast player icon
Season 1

How much time have you committed over the course of your veterinary career to get better at teaching? I'm betting that for most of you, the answer is: not much. Why? Because we're not teachers, right? But maybe we need to think again. Most of us in the veterinary profession spend much of our working lives trying to transfer and translate information. Isn't that, in essence, teaching?

Dr Toby Trimble spends a most of his time coming up with better ways to teach. Toby is the founder of Trimble Group, a film production company reinventing education for animal health, making it less like PowerPoint and more like Netflix. He focuses on making education engaging, visual, and memorable. With his team, Toby has created over 800 CPD videos and live broadcasts in the UK, Europe, Asia and Australia. He's also a specialist in veterinary anaesthesia and analgesia and an Assistant Professor of Veterinary Anaesthesia at the University of Nottingham.

In this conversation, Toby delves into why we should — and how we could — all be better teachers and communicators. He reflects on the lessons dyslexia taught him about teaching and about our perceptions regarding our own limitations. He discusses why a lot of online teaching falls short and how it can be so much better, the concept of using marginal gains to secure an edge in exam prep and in life, and so much more. 

 

Topic list:

01:18 Better communication through visual storytelling. 09:46 Preparation and practice reduce anxiety. 10:41 Verbal fillers can detract from communication. 19:17 Overcoming dyslexia through personalised education. 24:07 Hard work leads to breakthroughs. 27:48 Engaging, visual, experiential learning. 35:49 Education online will shift. 41:48 AI can provide information, but understanding is the key. 48:24 Simulation enhances veterinary skills training. 53:58 Marginal gains improve exam preparation. 58:47 Small things make a huge difference. 65:19 Clarify your message for memorability.

 

Join our community of Vet Vault Nerds to lift your clinical game and get your groove back with our up-to-date, easy-to-consume clinical episodes at ⁠⁠⁠vvn.supercast.com.

V⁠⁠isit ⁠⁠⁠thevetvault.com⁠⁠⁠ for show notes and resources related to this episode.

Connect with us through our online ⁠⁠⁠Vet Vault Network for episode highlights, clinical resources, discussions, questions and support.

Subscribe to our weekly newsletter ⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠ for Hubert's favourite clinical and non-clinical learnings.

Get up and running (or working!) with a 10% discount for ⁠⁠⁠Tarkine⁠⁠⁠ shoes, the official shoe of the Vet Vault by using the code Vetvault at checkout.

 

What's the one thing that we all do every day in this profession?Whether you're on the floor in a busy GP hospital or working in industry or sending out radiology reports or pathology results?We communicate, we talk.And why do we talk?Well, ultimately it's to inform, to advise or guide.
We teach.Now think about this.How much time have you committed over your career to get better at communicating all of that stuff that's crammed into your skull?I'll take a bit that you've spent significantly more time learning about the life cycle of gut tape worms or how to jerk off a jog.
Sorry, I should edit that out, but it's it's probably true.Not Toby Trimble though.Well, I actually never asked him about that last statement, but as you learn in this conversation, Toby has spent a lot of time thinking and learning about how to teach better and it shows.
Doctor Toby Trimble is an RCVS and EBVS recognized specialist in veteran anesthesia and analgesia.An assistant Professor of veteran anesthesia at the University of Nottingham and the Founder and CEO of Trimble Group.He's educational production company that helps individuals in the animal health industry communicate more effectively by transforming the way we teach through the power of visual storytelling.
And he's the host of the Future View podcast.This is despite the fact, or possibly probably because of the fact, that Toby only led to read at the age of 12 because of childhood dyslexia.In this conversation, Toby shares his thoughts on why we should and how we could all be better teachers and communicators.
What does Lexia taught him about teaching, and about our perceptions around our own limitations.Why a lot of online teaching sucks and how it could be awesome using something called marginal gains to give you an unfair advantage in exam prep and in life, and much, much more.
I've also had the privilege of utilizing Toby's teaching skills and his knowledge as a specialist and anaesthetist in a separate recording for our clinical podcasts in an episode on using ultrasound to improve regional anesthesia techniques.So local blocks, which will be out soon on our surgery stream of the subscriber podcasts along with some epic content that we recorded recently at IVX.
With more than 20 of the world's leading specialists in ECC surgery and medicine, our Red Fault nerds have a lot of great content coming their way over the next couple of months.Join them now to lift your Clinical game at VV n.supercast.com for weekly podcast updates in small animal medicine, surgery, and emergency and critical care to get access to all of this content, plus our back catalog of almost 400 episodes and all of the associated show notes.
Because it feels so good to know your stuff.Okay, let's jump in with Toby and being a better teacher.Toby Trimble.
Doctor Toby Trimble.I never get it to the UK.You Doctor Toby?Are you Professor Toby Trimble?Which is it?I'm just I'm an assistant professor, but you can just call me Toby.It's cool.So if you're assistant professor, is that professor or is it ASPROF?Yeah, so exactly.
So I had an Australian intern and I was like Andrew, I got the job as assistant professor at the university is like a parttime teaching, you can really excited.And he went, ah, yeah mate, you're an assprof.And it just like, totally pissed on my bonfire.So as Prof David Trimble, welcome to the VET world, thank.
You.That's your that's your intro.Yeah, that is my intro.I'm not even kidding.Welcome to the vet world.Thank you very much for having me.So quick question, podcaster to podcaster and I think it ties in with what we're going to talk about, about education and speaking and communication really.
Do you get nervous for podcasts or public speaking events and stuff still at all?Yes, yeah, I do.I think that the nerves.Are one of those things that you we feel nervous and often we think it's like a quite a negative thing.
But whenever I'm speaking, I was speaking at a conference yesterday and I was in front of a bunch of people who are education specialists at like the Veterinary Education Conference in Edinburgh and I was like, are they going to think what I'm saying is a little rubbish?
So they know more than me.And I had all this stuff and I've been doing like the same, you know, the kind of same subject for quite a while.So I thought I kind of know what I'm on about.But still your brains like, oh, danger, danger.And I think partly that kind of keeps you like honest.It still should become incomplacent.
But there's a really interesting thing from performance psychology looking at tennis players and they get nervous before they're in a big match.And if you reframe your nerves saying I'm anxious.Is saying I'm excited because anxiety and excitement are really similar emotions which is how we perceive them all that that than the positive negative.
If they said well I'm excited their performance went up significantly.So you kind of have to just go a bit like if you're running a 5K race, you can have to go well.If I feel like this, it's because I'm ready and in the 5K race you think I'm really struggling here.
This really hurts.That's because.You're running at the right pace, you know, and if you're not feeling it, you're not working hard enough.It's really cool.I I, I asked that question exactly for that reason, because I've found myself.I was sitting here getting ready to chat to you, and then I felt the physical sensations of what you would call nervous, like a little bit of butterflies.
I can feel my heart's a bit faster and I'm sitting here going, why?I've done this 500 times.I've chatted to you.I like you.I know we could talk to each other and then I had to exactly do that mental shift of going, no, no, I'm ready.I'm not nervous.
I'm.I'm ready.And and I think I learned it through surfing.It came down to I'd go to a shift, to an emergency shift and I'd feel that feeling and it'd be really negative.I'm like, I can't believe I'm in a bed for 15 years and I'm still very nervous going to work.I feel anxious.
I wish I could just get rid of this feeling.But then I realized when I go surfing and I pull up at the surf and the surf's good, I feel exactly the same.Physically, I feel exactly the same, but it's a really positive thing.I'm like, yes, go ahead to get out there.And it's like, well, same excited, different interpretation.
They just flip it and go.Now I'm ready for this podcast.I'm ready for the shift.I'm ready for that series.And it can be really positive as well, because if you're feeling like that, then you kind of give yourself the opportunity to make sure that you're not being lax, that you're actually preparing properly.
You're thinking, OK, well, ooh, I'm nervous because I haven't done this.You go.What should I do?And then that stops you from just, you know, just rocking up it and doing it and not being fully prepared.Also, is evidence that you give a shit about what you're about to do right?Yeah, I think giving a shit is important.
All right, let's start with my official first question.Toby, I hope you prepared.So I once saw graffiti somewhere.That said bad decisions lead to good stories, and I like that.And I want to know from my guests, do you agree?And do you have any stories that demonstrates that point?
Oh yeah, I agree.Yeah, I'm pretty sure that or just, you know, bad situations lead to those stories that you're you're happy to tell off and you never really talk about your success is quite as well as the.So what about bad decisions?I mean there's I think one that's really pertinent to what we're talking about is.
When I first started, when we first started to create videos for education, my background of teaching anesthesia, I would do some anesthesia videos and I thought I could just start without any practice.And whenever you get in front of the camera, typically you feel a lot of pressure.
You feel like you're having to.Present and you almost think that not that well.Some people will see this over the next few years and it will help them to, you know, learn a bit more or manage their cases better.You feel this pressure of the world and it's almost like you think.
This has got to be recorded for the next generation.You stand there and you go from being completely, completely relaxed to being like the Victorian photograph, and you're like, hello, good afternoon, I'm Toby, and I'm here to talk to you about Have you seen the movie Saturday Nights with Will Ferrell?
Yeah, with the hands.I was like with video stuff.I don't know what to do with my hands.Just the hands and it's coming up.Just yeah, getting in the way.So.So I suppose it was the fact that I hadn't really made a decision to actually practice.So we try.
I try and deliver on camera and I'd be nervous.And personally, when I was preparing, I wasn't particularly good.When I would, camera would go live because I would be overly stressed.That would make my working memory get a bit shorter.And my record, I'm, I have got the record for the most takes we've ever done for one video and it's 27 takes.
And I couldn't get this.It was just, it was a 32nd trailer, Yeah, yeah, I know, right, 27 takes.So, So it's my head of production.Gas was filming and he's, he's, he's so patient.But he was like, mate, you're really going to get this now.
You really have to get.It's not like, you know, it's taking too long with this.And I kept messing it up and then getting inside my own head.So because of that, I actually started to seek out someone to help me.So I found a presentation coach called Andrea Puccini and he helped me work on reducing those ums and Ers we use.
I would do ums and ers so much, Hugh, I thought I had a stutter and I thought it was a stutter.It's not.It's actually called a verbal filler and it's what you say when you're trying to.Work out exactly what you want to say next, but your brain hasn't caught up to your mouth.
So he taught me to plan what I was going to say, most importantly, to rehearse, to plan out the presentation and work out what's really going to work with the audience.And I mean it helped me hugely and that that basically helped me develop the whole strand of what we do with people we work with and making sure that they're confident and calm on camera, so.
Yeah, I think that's pretty it's, it's not bad decisions probably my fact of not even making a decision.Yeah, lack of decision making can make can be the worst decision, right?Yeah, the the M's and the R's and the verbal fillet thing.So beyond planning and rehearsing and practicing and making sure you're so that's when you're presenting.
But obviously as a podcaster and a podcaster who edits most of with my own podcasts, I'm super aware of for the words now and it's weird when I when you have an interview and you do the interview, I often won't even hear it.And then so the software that I used to edit doesn't auto transcript and it underlines all the filler words and I'm always astounded with myself as well.
So this isn't finger pointing to the guest how many of them there are.So be up And this is The thing is because we're having a conversation and I'm trying to make this relevant for the listeners in the veteran profession, we're we're on show, right?We're on show.If you're a consulting veterinarian, you are communicating, you are on show, and I do find it detract the filler words.
When I listen or when I edit a podcast, I find that the believability of the conversation or the, I don't know, there's something, It's definitely better if there's fewer of them.So the question is, how do you make it less?How do you make it less?What did your coach tell you and what do you tell other people other than preparation?
Are there other tips to get rid of the the verbal tics?Yeah, there are so.One of the main things is realizing that they're there and what they are, and because you can't change it until you're aware it's there, and then having a good plan of what you're going to say really helps you to keep on track with that.
So your brain isn't starting to really just think, well, I'm saying this right now, but the next thing I'm going to say, if you haven't planned it, then your brain might need some time to find the words and then go the other thing.Is you want to slow down.
So rather than feeling that, you have to continually speak very quickly.And I speak quickly normally, but if I'm presenting, I'll make sure I'm consciously slow down so I've got the time so I know what to say next on Earth.
That they're not something that's like they're not something we want to like get rid of entirely.It makes us human.So if you just do something absolutely perfectly, you know, that's wonderful, that's that's really great, and that's a really good skill.But you don't have to totally remove, remove them from the way that you're presenting.
They make you feel approachable.And sometimes, if it's too perfect, it's not quite right.Sounds a bit like a like a robot speaking, right?Yeah, and but if it's conversational, that's fine.And arms and nerves at the moment would be acceptable because we're having a conversation and that's normal.
But if you're doing a presentation on stage, a lot of them can actually remove your authority.So they make you feel like you're unsure of what you're saying or that you can't remember it.And that is a factor of your of of nerves and planning.And you know, practice does mean that you reduce those, or or at least practicing the most important beats in the presentation.
That really helps.All right.So we're going to get back to presentation and education and all those things.I just want to find out a little bit about Toby first.Who's Toby?What he does, I want to start with, and I've been Googling you, obviously in preparation for this.
Nothing creepy, just innocent, innocent Googling listening to other conversations with you.Well, because you said it's nothing creepy, I'm afraid immediately you definitely go.Unlikely the creeper watch register.Like there's somewhere.I list somewhere and they're like, Oh yeah, he's on there.
Toby Trimble images.I want to go back to Toby Trimble, the kid.He's still laughing.Just so much worse.Now let's go back to So we tremble the the child, the kid, the dyslexic kid who couldn't read.
At what age?How old were you when you still couldn't read?14 Yeah, yeah.Didn't learn to read properly till I was 14.So the I suppose the background that's relevant is that I I grew up at a time when dyslexia was something that wasn't, it was known about, wasn't hugely recognized.
So in the early 1990s you were either put in the mainstream school and you you sank or you swam or you were in the school for children with special needs.So my mum realized that it neither was going to be good for us.
So we got taught at home, me and my two brothers and I just remember that when I was about 11 years old, I remember being at Sunday school and we sat around reading Bible verses and.We're in a a ring of chairs and it's coming closer to me.
And I've sat there with this book looking at it and it's like, it's a code.Yeah.And I don't have the the way to unlock it.And I can read some of those words that are two and three letters but not much more.And I've got like a sentence or a few sentences to read out, and it's getting closer and closer to me.
And I can feel that my stomachs and knots and then my hands are starting to like, feel sweaty.And I'm really trying to read this.I'm like read, read, which of course doesn't really have much of an effect and it's closer and closer and I just know that that moment's coming.
So I just, you know, I'd really struggled with it.And then 2005, I was at Nottingham Vet School, so I was.I was 19 years old and I'm sat there and I'm talking to the school manager and I've haven't got GCSE's, worry levels, no high school qualifications because I learned to read quite late and I'm doing this vocational route through my like college studies, doing animal management.
So I'm doing Physiology, anatomy, doing work experience at vet.So kind of like an apprenticeship route to becoming a vet.Like believe before before vet.It wasn't very recognized to come into vet school.And so most of the vet schools I applied to said no, you can't come.And I was sat across the table from this lovely lady called Karen Braithwaite.
And Karen is writing on the sheet of paper.I remember she's writing right after the corners of the paper about my work experience that I'd done.I'm working on farms and working with birds of prey, working in zoos, and you know my real strong interest there.And they said Okay.
We'll let you apply.You can apply.And they gave me one offer and one scholarship and about a year later I went to Nottingham as part of the first cohort in 2006.And the really interesting thing here here is that I got to this point and the course just worked for me.
It was like the way the course was designed, just clicked in my head and it was like I wasn't dyslexic anymore.So.I needed a bit of extra time in my exam is that apart from that I went through like a normal person because they'd taken so much time to design it so well.
And I'm now at a point where in 2019 I've become a specialist in anesthesia and I'm lecturing about nerve blocks.And I realized when I'm doing this talk about this subject I prepared, I've written the presentation.
I've done some of the research, so I kind of know my stuff.And yet I'm looking at a group of people watching this and trying to learn from it for their clinical skills.And I'm seeing some of them falling asleep.And I'm I'm just copying how I would lecture and how.
I've seen other people lecture for CPD.And I'm thinking, man, I've got a lot of work into this, but I feel like I'm still a bit wider than Mark.And that's kind of what led that's the kind of the journeys that led me to do what I do now.And now we have a company and we make CPD that's more like Netflix and less like PowerPoint.
So there's a big gap there.I want to go back to that boy who sitting there nervous about having to read next.I mean, that's astounding.The, the jump from that to you lecturing and doing all the stuff you do now.What were you like?Were you otherwise confident?But it was just an academic limitation or what does it does it do to you as a little kid and then how do you go from that to well I've got the the guts and the confidence to to even apply for red school that's such an academic you know it's very much no keep out if you are not booky and.
Yeah.I think it was like reflecting back at it.I probably didn't really know any different because I was taught at home, so I didn't have a lot of kids to compare myself to.And I had two brothers who both are dyslexic as well.And I I I thought I was pretty.
I thought I was pretty thick.I didn't think I had like much intelligence and most of there was lots of education psychologists trying to work out what what was going on.And they thought I would get a job and in a place called Woolworths, which isn't the same as your Woolworths, it's basically like a department store that's but sells everything from pick and mix to garden mowers.
And so they they thought I'd just get a job at the checkout somewhere.So now.I was just in a situation where I I thought, well, will I get a job if I can't read?I remember asking my Aunt Mitch is like, Mitch, would I be able to get a job if I can't read?And she tells a story, She recounts it like every Christmas.
She's like, do you remember when you told me that?And it probably just made her feel like cold inside because it was just such a sad thing to ask.It was.Why was she thinking?No, probably not right.The odds are that you're not going to get a job if you can't read.Is that why I made?
I think so, yeah.Yeah, I think so.I think she she, she was really worried that you know how we were going to make a success because of you know, like I was a, you know, intelligent enough kid but there's not being able to like fit in with the educational system like it just, you know didn't it didn't really work for me so and I probably, I think I hoped it would work out in the end.
But I remember my, my my grandmother, she she was an educational lesson.She said what's going to happen is at the moment you probably feel like it's a really, really cold morning and you're getting into your car and you're trying to start it and you put the key in and it starts up and it goes not going to start.
And you keep going through this, this process of trying to get to start.And in your mind, you're going never going to start, never going to start, never going to start.And then you go, oh, it'll start next and it still goes never going to start.And all of a sudden it goes boom, boom, and it really starts just going and you're like finally, so and that that point happened to me like much later than than most people.
But you know, I'm, I'm glad that it did.And it's funny that I suppose, you know, I struggled a lot, you know, struggled a lot with exams and with studying for my specialist exams.You know, it wasn't easy trying to read a huge amount there.
Still, I'm still not brilliant or very fast at reading.But you you know, it teaches you to actually work for what you wanted.If it doesn't come too easily, it's it's good to probably to know that you know.Sometimes you have to.You have to keep going and and struggle even when it looks pretty tough.So other than dogged persistence and resilience, did having that as a limitation?
Or maybe you want to see it as a limitation, but it's something that you had to deal with?Did it teach you other skills?Other ways of looking at things or remembering things like are you better for it in some ways in your everyday life?I think so, I suppose.
I tend to think about things quite differently.So I I don't.Apparently the way I do math is like completely different to to what is conventionally taught because I sort of taught myself how to do multiplication and those kind of things.And the other side of it is that rather than seeing a problem, I tend to see that this is just a bit difficult.
What we just need to kind of work through it to get to a solution with it.You can, you can get through it.I think it also probably makes me appreciate other people if they're struggling of like what that feels like and to remember that, you know, that can feel pretty awful if you're trying to learn something even as an adult learner, you know.
And being an adult and struggling with something is much less socially acceptable than it is when you're a child.But recognizing that that's part of the learning process, you know that going through that.And I don't know if you've come across this, that some coaches call it the dip.If you're trying to learn something, you, you, you continue to continue to do quite well.
And then you hit the dip And you at that point, it feels really, really hopeless.And it can happen with like business negotiations or it happens with trying to get a project going and there's a dip, and the DIP is right before there's a great big breakthrough.But so you have almost been kind of taught to feel that the death is when it's about to really come together, even if it can feel quite discouraging sometimes.
So your lessons are hard is not hard does not mean impossible, It just means hard and and potentially hard is the hard is the beginning of good.And you're right.I imagine for most of us, your standard vet student, where academic school and stuff is generally pretty easy, It's not that much hard.
And then when you an adult and you hit hard, then it, it can feel impossible.It came like, well, this is obviously impossible because I'm so smart and if I can't figure it out then it must not be possible so hard.Hard doesn't mean no.And patience.
And it sounds like empathy.It's giving you empathy for somebody who's struggling because because you're right, I've experienced that trying to explain something to somebody and they don't get it.And then it's very easy to feel frustrated and go you're not even trying.Instead of going, well, maybe I'm not explaining it in the right way, let's let me try a different way.
Yeah, exactly.Yeah.Often if you're trying to explain something for the first time, I almost always find that I will confuse people because I don't understand it fully in my own mind.And it's it's good to recognize that that sometimes takes you a few goes to really get something explained properly 0.K so, Toby, your approach at Trimble Production or Trimble Group to teaching is different.
Yeah, we'll get into the how different, but they start with what is wrong or what is missing in traditional education.So if you think about the way that traditionally we do CPD or we do learning, it generally falls into didactic learning, which is based upon a lecture which is I'm going to talk and when I talk you're going to listen.
Then because you've listened, you've understood it, it's gone to your short term memory, medium term memory, be filed away.And then you can take it back out when you're going to apply it clinically or you can add it to the next step of the way you're trying to learn.And that format goes back to the first universities as far as we can tell in Bologna in the 13th century, probably a lot before that with the Greeks.
But the first time we had it documented is is in the first universities in Bologna.And you might know the feeling when you're in a lecture, oh, sitting there and it might be an interesting lecture, but you suddenly start to feel yourself becoming a little bit disengaged in your mind wandering.
And then you might find that, you know, you get your phone out and you start to check your emails.Or if it's a webinar, you just start thinking, oh, should I put it, should I put the washing on?Should I put, should I put a dark load on and we put the colors in with it?
Or do I just do do it?Should I do 2 loads?And then before you know it, you've missed the speaker.Or worst of all, you actually start to really start to relax even more, and then you drift off and you fall asleep in the lecture.So you know, so have you ever had that happen?
Or you fall asleep in the lecture.Or you'd catch yourself from falling asleep.Yes, absolutely.And I suppose most of us have done, I I certainly have done.And the The funny thing is that when you look at the neuroscience of what the way that we absorb and assimilate information using something where there is a 45 minute to maybe sit to 90 minute format where you sit and listen perhaps with a few questions, the the evidence for it just doesn't does not exist.
So what the evidence should say is that we should have something which is very short really engaging and is visual and engages at some different levels.So it might be audio, it might be that, it's, it might be this video there.
And if we can do it, you know, exponential learning, learning and problem solving is really, really good.That really makes things stick.So the way we the way we came out is that we integrate the neuroscience and my personal background was struggling with education, knowing what that feels like with educational principles and good production.
And we have studios here, we're based in, in the UK, in Yorkshire.We have film studios and we bring together a team of venue specialists and production specialists.We've got cinematographers, sound engineers, producers, we've got graphic designers and animators.
And we try and make education that is more like Netflix, less like PowerPoint is the the, the probably the elevator pitch for it to just make something that you kind of want to watch.Because in I suspect that the competition that we have for our time is not from like 1C PD company to the other or like do we go and do this wet lab.
I think actually it's from what other things we're doing, it's looking at the likes of Netflix or Disney or Amazon Prime because that's where we're spending our time and you can see the growth in those outlets.So we hope it's something that people really want to do to make actually that that in some way competes with those things that are asking for our time.
It's a big ask, but I I see that I have direct proof of that.I I once asked somebody in planning the clinical podcast subscriptions that I do the educational podcast.I asked somebody about pricing.It's and they said, all right, let me let me ask some of my friends how much they're willing to pay it.
And the answer came back.As long as it's not more than my Netflix subscription.So there's a direct comparison of priorities.Yeah, yeah, exactly.So you've you've got the the the benchmark there isn't there.And I hope that the that the difference we can make just it's not just that it's nice to do and it's fun, but actually because it's more engaging and that people retain it that directly helps us to provide better quality of care and improves animal welfare.
And again, what do you say about quality?It's got to be nice to listen to engaging.And what do you say about that lecture where you drift off, experienced that so vividly.Last year I went to talk that I was really interested in really good content.And I sat in the talk listening to it and at about 2025 minutes and I started feeling that feeling of my mind drifting.
You know, I don't know if there's any surf tomorrow.And and then I noticed it.I was like, damn it, it's happening.And I looked around in the room and everybody was politely staring at the screen, but they they weren't there anymore.And I thought exactly that.I thought what a, what a waste of information.
I don't know, a waste of talent and time and information to have this format where you talk at us for for 45 minutes.I don't think our brains are wired for that.I'll pitch my own product.But even just having it conversational, having a two way conversation with questions and answers where your mind has to go, OK, what's next?
What's happening there that I feel like we are designed to sit around a fire and talk to each other and I'm going to ask a question and then you get you act out.And then this happened and I chased this elephant with my spear and then he attacked it, you know, and that's engaging and you're going to remember that and you're going to learn from that versus just the monologue just doesn't work, doesn't get there, you're exactly right.
So the when you really take this right back to the neuroscience and you look at the way our brains work, what we have is something where the hippocampus is involved.And the hippocampus really is about the emotional connectivity to the way that we are learning there.
It's remembering the stories that you remember, how you felt when that happened.It's not that the way we're trying to learn is like a filing cabinet.It's not taking the facts and putting them in a neat order, it's it's about how we attach to those particular things.So we're pretty much wired to absorb stories.
And storytelling is just another way of having great communication because it can be a visual story.It could be that it's a spoken story, it could be that it's how we explain it, you know, in words.But there's a range of different ways that you could get it across.And if we find a way to attach the emotional, to find the way that we can access that from a way that connects with us, the way that we retain it is is a lot stronger.
So how's education going to change official education over the next decade?How will it look different do you think it's a really good question?Well, I I suspect that there are changes regarding the way that undergraduates are educated to have more first opinion based learning, which the the Royal College of that researchers in the UK has brought out.
So they've got to spend a lot more time in first opinion practice or skills that reflect that.And then there are other areas in looking at if we've got a lecture format that's 45 minutes, I suspect that we may find that that is not truly effective and we might start to have shorter lectures because you can do 45 minutes slot for your conference.
But what if you did 15 minutes as an intro, 20 minutes problem solving or case based and then you did a wrap up of you know of 15 to 20 minutes you know with Q&A because then you you actually you change the format of it.
I think also that the I think online education is here to stay and it will grow but I don't think it's for the reasons that that it expanded initially.So obviously it was something which was starting to come about with webinars about 10 to 12 years ago.
And then we got to a point in the pandemic where we weren't able to meet socially.So we started to take it online and we took a lot of our lectures that were in person online.And we know that that experience wasn't as great as we had hoped that it might be.
And it can often be something where we're left not feeling connected to the speaker and it can, it doesn't feel like a great learning experience.So I suspect now what will happen is there will be more pressures on us not to travel as much for CPD.So there'll be there's responsibility for making sure that we don't have a lot of people traveling for a five day conference or we might go, well, instead of going for that for each CPD you do, maybe you'll do less of them.
Or we have colleagues who are traveling from a long distance away, maybe it doesn't make sense for them to travel that far.So the online learning should be able to back that up, but it should be effective and it should be something that it's worth your time doing.Not that you go okay, I'll put on the webinar and then I turn off my camera and my microphone and I sort of sit there and I'll kind of look at the news in the background.
Yeah, you know, And then I'll go.I don't know what you're talking about.Toby put it in my CPD log.Exactly.Yeah.No, no, no, not a clue.Yeah, you know, and it's such a shame, isn't it?Because the educational value of that is very limited and you might pick up a few bits and bobs, but not truly the understanding of it, which probably is what stays there.
So I suspect that what we should be seeing in the next 10 years is there'll be an expansion and development in the formats that online education is delivered.And I think one of the big things actually Hugh, is that I don't think at the moment for Facetoface lectures that we actually have very good training for speakers to deliver it.
So we we deliver a talk, but we copy what was done from the people that that taught us.And whether it's the PowerPoint or the overhead projecting, remember that the acitates used to write on.I used to have some of those, you know, kind of when I was at college.Remember that?
I kind of like those.I had to do a talk recently and I thought.I want, I wanted to see if I can buy one of those because at least you can make it into actively you can ride on it and draw pictures and and I just wanted to do it for novelty value because it's such a retro vibe.I can do it.It would be, it would be quite cool for novelty value.
It would be like like vinyl coming back in fashion, wouldn't it?But but an overhead projector or PowerPoint or even a blackboard, then that that it's the same thing the way.So I think that what would really help is actually having some training for anyone who's presenting to be able to just get the best out of it and to make the to make the experience valuable for people who are coming to watch it.
So if you said that during COVID, when everything went online and it wasn't quite there, was it because it was online or was it just because of the skills in the format didn't hit the market because we didn't really know what we're doing with it.So the question is, is it going to shift more and more online?
Like, could you create a veterinary course That is mostly an online experience?So I'll come back to the first part of your question before 2nd.But the thing here is that it's not like all training fits in one format.
There's different types of training that work better and you've got to look at the outcome of what the course is.So if you're looking at communication skills, sometimes they work really well doing some prerecorded learning and then some Facetoface sessions which could be on Zoom.
If you're looking at the skills you need to be able to do to do surgical procedures, what can work really well there is to have some learning beforehand, but then a lot of substitution for having a really good practical day.There's, you know, there's augmented reality and there's haptics which are coming along, you know, and we're working on those, but they are something that's going to take a lot longer to really get there.
So I suspect that being more purposeful about when we go for these sessions or making sure that you're prepared and then you get to them will make a big difference because then you're right really ready to get on the prelearning you wanted to get through it rather than just rushing it the night before to make sure you tick the box so you go and do the can, have a surgery module would be good.
But coming back to what you'd said about if we move online, is it because the format was rubbish or is it because the, you know, the way that we presented it didn't really work?I think that a zoom presentation can be absolutely wonderful.It can be fantastic if we know how to use it properly.But often it's realizing that the purpose of the lecture in person is different to the purpose of the lecture online.
And presenting online is more difficult, particularly if you can't see the participants, so you know you you have to have more interactivity, you need a lot more energy to present online, and some of the technical aspects are important.So having your camera at eye level, having some basic lighting which makes you feel overexposed, not presenting with a window behind you and then having a microphone.
Because if you've got a microphone and you just sound like this and you're like right at the back of the room sounds awful and actually for your brain it's really it's really wearing.So from podcasting, if you think of your favorite podcast and you've got someone there who is calling in and they're on a mobile phone or their their mic isn't very good.
It actually is really, really tiring for your brain and it and that makes actually the tracks and the whole learning experience.So I think it's a mixture of not having the not being format ready because we had to rush it online because that was just what we had to do to maintain some progress.
And also the fact that we weren't really ready technically for a lot of presentations and we weren't and we're not, you know, we're not really trained to do it either.That's so insightful because I think it's scientists when we teach and even when we think about learning, we think it's just about the content.
You go well, all the other stuff of the microphone, all that stuff.It'll be nice to have it, but it's not really that important.But what you the way you explain is that there's neurology involved.It's not just being fancy or being a tech geek.It is harder work.So that's great for anybody who does this.
I'll certainly take that on board for my stuff.Yeah, I have this theory.I'd love to test it with you because education is your thing.So I've been gelving into artificial intelligence a little bit and listening to stuff and trying to learn about it.Oh, cool.Yeah.And I spent some time the other night thinking, OK, where could this go for our profession specifically?
And the inevitable conclusion for me is that us as veterinarians, as the guardians of information, as the gatekeepers of people coming to us, because we know shit is very rapidly coming to an end.Like we scuff at our clients, Googling things.
But once you start Googling, once you start searching, and the thing that's you're asking questions of as an IQ of they're predicting they'll be in the thousands within the next couple of years, it's going to be so much smarter than us.So knowing facts and knowing information is not going to be our thing anymore, which I find quite found quite frightening.
When I thought about it, I was like, well, so what's left for us?And especially as somebody like you who teaches, I'm like, oh shit, well is that going to become completely obsolete?I don't know.Have you thought about this at all?Is it a I?Whether we want it to or not is coming and I believe that there will be different perspectives on it and how comfortable people are to use it.
You could say right, okay.Well, I'm not going to use it and I'm going to keep going as I am.But the difficulties is that if it bypasses you, then you know, and you're not willing to to use it to enhance what you're doing, then you might get left behind or you're left paddling on this wave while the way you know, trying to catch it while the wave's already moved.
The other option is that you use it to enhance what you're doing.When I spoke to Steve from Betty, so Steve Jocelyn was talking about it with me and one of the the big things we discussed was that it's a learning tool.
So you pitch the AI, it's like a really smart vet student or intern.And you've got two options.You can give it the bookcase, which is over here, and that will give you all of those books that it can digest and it can read them and it can do it super fast, and then it can give you an output based upon those.
Or it can do this database here and it can do the same.Now the first books.Are the books which are from 1980 to 1989, and they're a bunch of texts on the subject, but they're all out of date and this really bright a I is able to read that, but it can only give you the outputs based on what's there.
But if you guide it to give it the stuff which is up to date and which is going to be evidence based, it will give you much better answers.So we we have to give it the right stuff.Because if we don't it will just give us answers which are out of date or incorrect.
So with that I think, I think recognizing it it that it's a learning tool.The other side of it is also is that, you know, we're we're a human profession so that we certain areas of answers.But like we, I think we we have a real feeling as a profession that our value is knowledge.
So knowledge or information.So that's what's in the book.Okay.Great.So I'll go get you a book.So here's a book for you.Okay here.Right.Okay.So we've got Echo Anesthesia by Muir and Hubble.It's one of the biggest books in Echo Anesthesia.Yeah.Okay.Right.
So here's the information.Now you know it.The problem is, is that the value isn't in the information.The value is in the understanding.So, so that's what you know that's the thing Okay.So, so now you've read this okay and you can tell me everything there is to know about using Hallothane in horses.
You like get Toby.But you know what you get lots of arrhythmias with Hallothane.You need to be careful.You know make sure you're careful with Hallothane.And I'm like that's great.Thanks very much.We haven't used it for 20 years but it's in the book.So so it's it's the it's it's like having a really it's I see it with you when we have trainees and that they go and read the book but they they haven't had a chance to really know where it applies there.
And remember the the human communication aspect, A I will get better of that.But still reading emotions and being able to explain things in a compassionate way and using your clinical experience is still going to be really important.So of course we're going to use it.We'll probably use it for writing our letters and helpful clinical notes.
It'll probably take off a lot of the heavy lifting of stuff that we probably don't enjoy very much anyway.But I think that a I will be really helpful for us.There's no doubt it will take away some of the things we do and we'll, you know, we will move and change what we make.But I I think it's I think it's I think it's pretty exciting stuff to be honest it is that's why I had that thought experiment to say well what is if information is not our thing anymore and it's going to get it is already so much better.
So what you explained there of outdated data and that the the version I'm using at the moment I can feed it the most up to date consensus statement I did it yesterday with consensus statement on feel and upper respiratory tract diseases of cats, the most recent consensus statement and then you can ask it questions.
You say here's the document OK what what do I do for this What should I look at And it's it's really good.It's really accurate and I think to the point where stuff like history taking and deciding OK what's your first steps and those sort of things.I think it will able to do soon not now but soon.
And I had that thought experiment of I said what's left for us what other than I'm going to go take the bloods.AI is going to say, well go take blood.Run these tests and then I'll get back to you with an answer.But what you said the word understanding.Understanding and and then the the human connection.
I I'd like to think but but that's why I asked how's education going to change?Because if we go, well, remove the fact that you have to cram textbooks into your head.Take that away.How much time are you going to save at event degree.If you say, well, don't worry about memorizing all that stuff.
Right.That's it's there.It's in your pocket.You can access it anytime you want.You don't have to remember that but you've got to understand some of the principles.And then how exciting is it to go?Well we've got all this extra time in event course potentially that we don't have to.I don't have to stand there for 50 minutes to give you a bunch of facts that you're going to come and regurgitate in an exam at the end of the month.
So what do we do this time?Let's get better at understanding.Let's get better at communicating.And there are different types of knowledge.So there's knowledge that we need to have to retain to be able to apply things clinically and there's the knowledge that you need to have to be able to understand that.So it's how you get there.
It's not something where it is.It's like saying you you know you're not going to need to have the knowledge that's that's in there.But I think it's just been able to to to Google it isn't enough.It's the the understanding is the really critical bit or.
The other thing from the conference I went to yesterday that was I went to a great seminar and Christina Pollock from Edinburgh University and her team in veterinary simulations we're doing, you know, we're doing a talk and then we had a practical demonstration of how they do simulation and not not just simulation for like, you know, using a really fancy CPR, mannequin or for anesthesia or you know to do the Physiology there like communicating and and how we interact with clients.
How do you manage a situation and how do you reflect on the things that went well in your concept rather than just beating yourself up because there was one thing you didn't do very well, you know teaching those kind of things.I think simulation will really catch on for the way that where we teach undergraduates and I hope for postgraduates too, because it could be a great way of being able to build up those skill sets and drilling and then being able to have better performance of skills later on.
There's a lot in there that I think will will become will really catch on if you look at what the.What the medics are doing, they're doing a lot more simulation and in the UK it's mandated that medical schools have to provide immersive simulation as part of their undergraduate curriculum.So it's it's that that will certainly come.
So how does what does it look like?The simulations?Is it a computer based thing or with actors?Or how do they the thing you attended yesterday?What's the format?Well, it doesn't.It can be as fancy as you like, but you took there's something called low fidelity or high fidelity.So it's about basically how close it is to Physiology.
If it's high fidelity so.You know, really high fidelity might be a CPR mannequin where it blinks and you can assess the pulses, etcetera, or but you can also have low fidelity where someone can just tell you they can go, the pulses are weak.
You know that there's no power, people reflex for example.But you can also have high fidelity from a psychological perspective, which could be you have a member of the team there and they could be embedded faculty.Who might stand there?
And they might play the part of a client in a in an interaction, and they would be talking to you.And you're in a room which is a consult room.So it's a, you know, a small room with a table.You've got your cupboards there with your and your little dispensers for your sharps, for your syringes and that kind of stuff that feels psychologically like you're in the moment.
And that can be high fidelity too.So it doesn't have to be that.It's really immersive and it's on a computer and it's like super high tech.It can be just as good if we're doing it in a way which helps us to have suspended this disbelief or very similar to the appearance of being real.
Because for us, in our minds, we can, we can feel like we're there and that can be, you know, very powerful for the way that we the way that we pick up information.That's so cool.I really like that because like somebody asked me yesterday because on the podcast I've said it before, they I didn't love being a vet for the 1st 10 years almost.
And then and then I started enjoying it and somebody said, well, why?And I think some of it was that some of the things, specifically the client communication, the interaction with other humans, the what's traditionally called soft skills, but they're really difficult skills, just took me that long to learn because it just doesn't happen all that frequently because you can't.
Yeah, I can go and study all my facts and I can go and do 20 spades on a weekend at the RSPCA and work on that and that I can excel really rapidly.But it is the conflict situation, all those sort of things that you, as you say, it happens infrequently.You don't have time to assess and get feedback you you self about it for three days and then the next time that happens is 6 months from now or a year from now.
And you don't get to practice it and it takes you that long to get better.And I think that was part of it for me.What I love with that is that you're going to practice it so well.Here are these situations that you're going to face.Let's do it over and over and over until it's no longer stressful.Then you can and it comes naturally, like doing a spay.Exactly.
It lets you to be able to drill it.And sometimes when we think about things that are outside of our clinical duties, we say that we refer to it as soft skills.And sometimes the soft skill is our way of saying I don't feel that's valuable or I don't want to do that.
You know, we go as a soft skill.It's not you know, and that's how that's code for.It's not that important to me.But you get a disproportionately high effect for some of this stuff.It can be really effective for the way that you, you run your practice, you communicate with your team or the way you run your business.You know that that's where you really start rocking and rolling with this stuff.
I think some of it is our perception of for us as we're like you know clinical as king and it's actually something that really helps that to to flourish and and to thrive.I think I've got time for one more topic before I've start rapping that sound right before I do my my my end wrap up questions.
Are you going to start rapping?No.Yes, You don't want to do that again.My 11 year old is now heavily into rap, so I've got lots of rap songs going.Amazing.Do we want to talk about communicating about speaking skills and specifically making it relevant to either?
Because lots of us do talk, like as your career progresses you have to start doing talks and teaching others.But as I said at the beginning of this, we do also talk to people every day.We are presenting every day.So we can either talk about that or in another interview that I listened with you, you briefly touched on a concept of marginal gains which I liked and I would love to find out more about that.
So that was Joyce.Marginal gains or communicating communication skills?I can't remember what I said on marginal gains and I know I just like the concept you you said it as an aside when you talked about prepping for let's let's go that if you're OK with that.So the interview I listened to, you talked about you prepping for your, I think it was your specialist exams and how you try to tweak.
The Oh yeah, around the edges and you just mentioned marginal gains.I was like ah, I I want to know more about marginal gains.So let's talk about the concept of marginal gains, and maybe we can bring it back to exam techniques for our student listeners or anybody doing memberships or specializing.Well, how does that work on our marginal gains?
So it's it's like 2018 and I'm getting ready to sit my European college, veterinary anesthesia and analgesia exams and these are quite significant exams.It's like doing four or five lots of finals like you know it's it's a lot of information to to go through.
There's a whole bunch of books.There's.Five years of of papers.I think it's something like for my college it was about 800 papers, but some of them can be up to, you know, 2000 papers.It's a lot to get through and I hadn't studied as much as I should have, but I'm not the brightest person who might be sitting the exams, but what I was meticulous about was exam preparation.
I also really like cycling and and and riding bikes.And there is a team at the time called Team Sky.So they were really dominant with winning a Tour de France.And they're based in the UK.And I followed them very closely and they identified that when you're at the very top level of sports, a bit like it is for us in academia when we're sitting exams, the difference between those who win and those who don't sometimes come down to really small margins.
And there are things that you can do to give yourself the best chance of succeeding.Sure, if you're going to get 30% in the exam and someone else is going to get 90%, there's a huge difference there.But the difference between passing and failing is sometimes not as big as we might think.
So what can you do to give yourself the best chance?The first thing is probably having a good idea of what you can do in your exams.Like can you get good technique for reading the question for different types of answer, Your multiple choice, your essay or your short answer question.
So.You can you practice those and can you drill down to those and practice those.So I started to look at like what the, what the training was around those and there was a program which taught us to answer short answer questions so that we applied that and practice.There's a whole bunch of other stuff that you can do which really helps.
For example, like if you're going to run, so you're a runner, aren't you?So if you're going to run a marathon, okay do you train and work very hard?Until the day before the marathon.Is that what you do?
What do you do?You rest, eat, eat well, sleep well and keep mobile.But definitely don't don't burn yourself out the week leading up to the race.Exactly.And it's the same for us when we did in our exam.So you could you can do something called tapering.
So you can work really hard to like a week before and then you drop the volume so you stop studying like full time.And you might just study and work two or three hours a day on just hone up those topics or just pick the bits which you know, which you know you need to really to refine.
And that helps you to shed fatigue and arrive at the arrive at the exam to be bright eyed and bushy tailed the day before the exam.What you're going to do if you've got to travel to, we go travel to sit it.Well, if you've got to travel, how you going to sleep better So you find some with it.You find somewhere with air conditioning, Okay.
So I was going to Germany and it was hot in the summer.It was like 28 degrees.So I found some with air conditioning, The conference hotel or the place the organization had recommended, well, that didn't have air conditioning.And I also knew that the other candidates were going to be there.
And as much as I love my colleagues, I didn't want to be with them right before the exam because, you know, that can be a lot of discussion, which can be quite emotive and isn't often that constructive.And then there's like a couple of other things that these and this sounds.This might sound really weird, but I brought my pillow from home.
Because I knew I'd sleep better with that, so I had like vacuum packed it, put it in my suitcase and hand luggage, you know, made sure I only had hand luggage to make sure I knew I had it with me so I didn't have to wait for it or worry it be lost.And the very last thing I did, and this sounds utterly bonkers, is my friend Holder suggested we go for a spa day before the exam.
So we went and sat in this spa and had like a massage and went for a nice walk after, you know, after the spa and just felt, you know, generally like as relaxed as possible for the exam.And I think the small things like that they do help because you get there to be, you've got less fatigue on board, you've you and you know that you're going to give your best chance of answering the questions.
And we know in situations where you're very stressed that you will revert back to what you're comfortable with.So if you've got a way to answer the questions which have a drilled response, you know that's why we practice so much.If you revert back to that, you're not going to end up just going, oh, you're going to go screw it, right.
I'll just do whatever and.You know that could be the difference.So those those small things the marginal gains I believe add up to having an advantage that you know is is more than just reading and learning is and cramming.I don't think any of that spark is made.
I I travel with my special little knee pillow because I I like something between my.Oh, you're a delicate flower, aren't you?You know what I like the.Most about what you described there, and especially because you bring it back to the professional cycling team.
So if you talk to somebody who is an Olympic cyclist and he tells you about all these things, nobody would think weird, nobody would say, that's bunkers you go, totally.I get it, you're a professional cyclist.But what I like about you describing here is you have a an attitude of a professional.You were at that stage, a professional exam writer.
A student is a professional student.You show up and you act like a professional.Cramming the night before and staying up until 3:00 in the morning is not very professional.But don't act unprofessionally.Do it the right way and it comes back to a profession.Even we think that we're professional vets because I get paid to do it, but sometimes, sometimes we don't act very professionally in that.
And again, we're humans as well, so you can't be a robot.But just understanding that I'm a professional, I've got to show up, I've got to sleep, I've got to do these things, I've got to make sure that I snack that I do these things.Because otherwise I can't be my best.And there's no difference between the guy who gets paid to be an Olympic athlete or a first class athlete or the guy in the vet clinic it to somebody.
There's a big difference in salary, probably beyond that in attitude.Probably not that big a difference, right?Exactly.It's one of those things of.It's a bit like comes back to what we started with talking about presentations is that there are certain areas of the way that we practice that make big differences to our careers and our outcomes and how we learn or how we succeed in our exams.
That if you've got a kind of a bit of an approach to it that can give you an advantage, you know that works and and when you're in business they call it the unfair advantage is actually that's what you want you know you what you want to have those.Those things that give you that advantage, those those things that that make you into someone who's going to succeed in your career.
And if you've got those, then actually you know that's awesome because you don't have to go around again.You don't have to learn things again and you get so kind of move on and do things like going surfing.All right, let's wrap up Toby with the wrap up questions.
I'll start with the newer one that I'm trying out, the the pass along question where I ask my previous guest to give you a question for the next guest not knowing who they are.The question for you is what do you think about most?I thought about this one when you asked me what do I think about most?
Now you can't think about what you think about, right?Yeah, it's like a mental block, isn't it?I for me, I often think about where the industry's going and what what area.We're going to make sure that we're going to support that.
That's what I tend to think of is is like what if a I is going to become a thing, How do we find a way to use that constructively so it supports our activities as a company or what will people want in three to five years time so we can make sure we make sure we do that, spend a lot of time thinking on those areas.
It's quite exciting to think about.It can be quite scary, but those thought exercises often just help you to really.Approach things from new ways and you sometimes get some new innovations that come out of it.So here's my personal question.
How do you stop thinking about it?Because sometimes because you're excited about this and it's something you passionate about and it's your business into your life.How do you get away from that so that doesn't become a constant thing in your head?I had a great coach a few years ago and he would say it's vapor until it's on paper.
So I write it down, I write it down, I get it out my head, and then it stops it going around in my head.And then I tend to talk about it.Sometimes it helps you to clarify it because you realize that your thoughts aren't very clear.But if you can just bring it together, then that helps you to discuss it with your team members and realize some of it's really good.
A lot of it is just going round and round and round and that's not helpful.So having an idea of what is really good stuff on paper just means that you know stops you going into a spiral.Great.Great advice.
Podcasts, current favorites.What should I be adding to my listening list or audio books?Oh, audio books, Okay.So, so podcast wise, we are recording in July.It's currently the Tour de France.So I'm listening to the cycling podcast, which is an awesome way to get to grips with what's happening in the race.
So I'm loving that.And then otherwise, a good one is PLANET MONEY from NPR in the United States.And that looks at economics and the way that economics reflects not like finance, but they actually reflect the way that we as a species act on a macro level and seeing using what affects trade and and how that can give you a better understanding of the world and quite enjoy that one.
Awesome.That's a good one.I've seen it, but I've never listened to it.With it last question then, Toby, is you have an opportunity to speak to all of the veteran new grants of the world and you have a couple of minutes to give them one little bit of advice about their career or about life in general.
What is Aspriv, Toby?He trembles.One bit of advice.You're going to get the opportunity to speak to a lot of people during your career, whether that's in consultations, it's in business or it's on stage.
And ultimately, the thing to remember is that the more you tell people, the less they remember.If you give them a long story with loads of detail, they're unlikely to remember it all.
But if you've got a small, succinct message, they're likely to remember it.So clarify what you're going to say in a presentation or to an owner.It'll help it stick and it'll make you memorable.The more you tell people, the less they remember cold.
I don't know what you're saying about my podcasts that are longer than an hour.Is that completely pointless because nobody's going to absorb any of it.Depends what the purpose is.This is to have a nice chat and to pick a few good things out.It's probably is.Bang on mate.Toby, thank you so much for your time and for your innovation and for all the awesome things that you're doing.
I love spending time on your website and looking at your videos.I just love your website.For a start, I'm super jealous.If anybody is interested in the things that he's doing, you should head over to Toby's website, which is Toby.At trimblegroup dot io or you can find me on LinkedIn at Tobytrumble and it's always great to.
Connect with people and have a chat and to yeah, to see why you're still listening at this point.If you were listening at this point, drop me a message.I would love to catch up.Obviously the links for that will all be in the show description and we'll see you next time.Toby, thank you so much.Thank you very much.Had me Before you disappear, I wanted to tell you about our new weekly newsletter.
I speak to so many interesting people and learn so many new things while making the podcasts.So I thought I'd create a little summary each week of the stuff that stood out for me.We call it the Vet Vault 321 and it consists of firstly 3 Clinical Pearls.These are three things that I've taken away from.
The clinical podcast episodes, my light bulb moments, the penny dropping, any new facts and the stuff that we need to know to make all the other pieces fit.Then two other things.This could be quotes, links, movies, books, a podcast, highlight, anything that I've come across outside of clinical Wedding that I think you might find interesting.
And then one thing to think about, I'll share something that I'm pondering, usually based on something that I've read or heard, but sometimes it'll be just my own musings or ants.The goal of this format is that you can spend just two to three minutes on the clinical stuff and move right along if that's all that you're after.But if you're looking for content that is more nourishing than cat videos or doom scrolling, then our two other things should send you in the right direction.
And then something extra for when you feel like a slightly longer read.If you'd like to get these in your inbox each week, then subscribe by following the newsletter link in the show description wherever you're listening to this.It's free, I think it's useful, it's fun, and it's easy to unsubscribe.If it's not for you, okay.
We'll see you next time.

Dr Toby Trimble