Sept. 6, 2023

#101: The Antidote To Fear-Based Practice. With Dr Warwick Vale

#101: The Antidote To Fear-Based Practice. With Dr Warwick Vale
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Season 1

Here's a little nugget of wisdom for you: 'Do what you can with what you have where you are.' I stumbled upon it a while back, and it's like a bite-sized version of stoic philosophy. It's a solid life motto, especially in the world of veterinary work, and it neatly sums up what you're about to hear.

Meet Dr Warwick Vale – a name you've probably heard in the Aussie veterinary scene. He's not just the ex-President of the Australian Veterinary Association; he's also a rockstar in equine medicine, a business-savvy company director, and a go-to consultant in the veterinary world. Oh, and did I mention he's a total jack-of-all-trades when it comes to hobbies? Dr Warwick played a key role in kickstarting the AVA's Thrive program, a fantastic initiative focused on keeping vet pros in tip-top shape with industry guidelines. But let me spill the beans on why we're talking to him today. It all started with a listener who said, 'You gotta talk to Warwick.' I don't take those recommendations lightly. The reason isn't the thousands of animals he's helped or the boards he's served on; it's the deep impact he's had on one incredibly grateful person. Just one.

Join us in this conversation as Warwick tells us how to live and practice veterinary medicine with heart and camaraderie, smashing through the fear barriers around our comfort zones. We chat about everything from overthinking to embracing your quirks for a happier career, and how trust and connection can be the cure for fear-based practice.

 

Topic list:

03:14 The art of rolling with the punches.

07:34 What's so different about veterinary medicine now?

14:21 A day in the life of Warwick's Vale.

16:48 The importance of customer service in a veterinary clinic.

26:01 Stopping to smell the roses.

31:27 Warwick's impact on mental health in the vet industry.

36:36 Prevent, promote, protect and workplace culture.

46:44 The responsibility as a vet: impacting others on an individual and industry level.

55:57 Walk the journey with others.

60:17 Choosing love over fear.

62:19 Is part-time vetting the new normal?

63:55 Warwick's favourite podcasts.

66:02 Warwick's one piece of advice for new grads.

 

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Do what you can with what you have, where you are.This is something I came across a while ago as a sort of a summary of Stoic philosophy.It makes a pretty decent motto for life and for vet work, and I think it goes a fair way towards summarizing the conversation that you're about to listen to.
Doctor Warwick Vale is a familiar name in the Australian veterinary landscape as the previous president of the Australian Veterinary Association.He's also a very well respected and well loved acquaint clinician, a company director, a veterinary business consultant and as you'll hear, a total polymath when it comes to hobbies and interests.
He was also one of the drivers behind the Ava's Thrive program, a fantastic veterinary Wellness initiative that is formulating industry guidelines with the aim of protecting the well-being of all veterinary practitioners.But that's not why I'm interviewing him.It was a listener who officially introduced me to Warrick and suggested him as a guest, which is never something that I take lightly.
And the recommendation wasn't because of the thousands of animals that he's helped or the clients that he's impacted.And it wasn't because of.All of the great work that he's done for the profession in his roles on various boards, it came because of 1 very grateful person who Warrick impacted directly and deeply.
Just one.Join us in this conversation as Warrick shows us that living and vetting with heart and with collegiality breaks down the walls.That fear builds around our comfort zones.We chat about, amongst other things, catastrophizing, excessive worrying versus holding ourselves to high standards.
While your weird obsessions might be just what you need for a long and happy career, and how connection and trust could be the antidote to fear based practice and much, much more.Dr. Warrick Vale.Thank you so much for joining us on The Vet World.
You're welcome.It's quite exciting to be.I've got a lot to talk about.You do a lot of stuff.Work.When I start looking into you and chatting to people about what should we talk about.There's a vast array of potential topics.But let's try and narrow this down.Let's start with the statement that I usually start with.
Bad decisions lead to good stories.Do you agree with that?And if you do have any examples?Of that work.I think I do agree to that.I think that I'd like to think I've had my fair share of bad decisions.And I don't know if I've got a specific example except to say that with that question is more about there's no such thing as a bad decision.
It's just how you deal with every decision that you make.You can always turn a bad decision and an outcome into a good result.And I guess that from my perspective.It's about that positivity.It's about just always looking at the glass half full rather than 1/2 empty, so to speak.
So yeah, I don't have any regrets of the things that that I might have framed at Summer stage as being bad in my life and making bad decisions.But in retrospect, I look back on them and think, well, they all worked out.I'm still going, I'm still happy, I'm still healthy, I've still got family, So let's move on.
That was just part of the spectrum of experiences that I'll take to as catalogued as part of my life story.And do you think it was an inherent attitude for you, the ability to look at something that is bad in the moment and then to reframe it, rather than catastrophizing and going, oh shit, this is the end of the world?
Or is it something that has come with the wisdom of the years?It's come from genetically.My father is there's been a huge role model in my life and I never saw him flustered, I never saw him upset and we lived on a chicken farm.You have crisises on that and you make decisions and things go wrong and and he was just the type of man that just rolled with the punches and was always upbeat.
And then I learned early on from some in some business training that I did about personality testing and some sort of self-awareness around what was my personality type as a leader, what was my personality type with interpersonal relationships and I was a bold action sort of dog first type person then.
Deal with the consequences.And that's just the way I've always been.And I guess you learn because you learn how to handle crisises, because you're in crisises a lot because you sort of jump in first without thinking.So you're probably self select in a way and or self train yourself to be able to handle crisis.
But just by simply, well I'm in them all the time so this is just normal part of my day.Yes, think or swim, especially when we talk vet related.I feel like it used to be a lot more like that, and we kind of had to, right?You had no choice, you go.Well, I did a bit of digging about you beforehand, and I heard a story about your first ever carving that turned into a solo cesarean, literally.
You know, tell me about.That quickly.Yeah, well my first ever carving was turned into a solo cesarean That was typical mixed with practice type story.Like I was like 40 kilometers. 9:00 at night, away from the clinic, I was on my own.
I think I've been graduated about three months.Cow was in the crush and couldn't get the calf out and said, wow, I've got to do a cesarean.And and it, as I made my incisions through the, you know, internal muscle layer, I cut so deep.I cut into the room and oh, I ended up with a 2 to 3 centimeter hole in the room and with a bit of rheuma fluid pouring out.
And I thought, oh, that's it, I've stuffed this up.And then the farmer looked, looked over my shoulder.He could see what's going on, he said.I've seen that happen before.Don't worry, just keep going.So.I've closed the room and then went on and did the caesarean and got the calf out, and I thought, Oh well, that cow's going to die.
She won't live very long.She'll get paranoidus.It all worked out all right.She survived and the farmer thought I was reasonably competent what I did.I was invited back again, which is the acid test, to come back to the property again and do more work.It's the sort of client that you want for those sort of scenarios, right?
The client who's encouraging to saying, yeah, don't worry about it, just keep going versus climbing into you and going what the hell are you doing?You're gonna kill my cow or bit of a luck of the drawer situation.Another carving I went to.You know, I drove like 2 hours to get to this carving from the clinic and then realized I hadn't taken the surgical kit.
So I ended up doing a Caesarian with a pair of fencing pliers.I had engaged needles and cat, gutter and scalpel blow that were the only surgical instruments that I had in the car.That did work out all right.So, you know, I don't know, I was quite managed to sort of thrive in those type situations or at least survive those situations and didn't end up with too much navel gazing about what if or what I could have done and what I shouldn't have done.
So it sounds like an inherent type of resilience, or at least that resilience that was cultivated by necessity.Where do you see it these days?Because those sort of situations, I suppose you can still get those situations if you go out rural and you work somewhere where you are the only vet.
But for a lot of us now in our profession, those situations are less and less likely and less and less common for multiple reasons.One being I feel like our clients that won't put up with that sort of stuff.B.The expectation is that if you're in over your head.
Pass it along to somebody who can deal with it.So I feel like it's less and less likely that we're going to end up in situations where it is sink or swim and also we are less likely to want to take that risk.Is the reality that the repercussions are worse these days or do we tell ourselves that?
I don't know.How do you see that playing out in new grad today versus Warwick when he was a young bet?Yeah, I look up and I've asked myself to that question, you know, like well.What is it about the the current workplace environment and culture, especially for early grads that makes that situation different today?
And I think you're 100% right.It's the risk of client expectations being a lot higher.I think there's also that risk of where you should be doing this and if you do because you're not skilled or experienced enough, you should be hand handballing.I think all those are pressures that.
I didn't have at the forefront of my mind back when I was a new graduate.For me it was just about getting the job done as as best as you possibly could.And were the clients more forgiving?I suspect they probably were, but I don't know if the pendulum was swung so far the other way in the way that we imagine, I think we'd probably worry more about clients and their expectations and certainly the ramifications of those with a bit me practitioners board are in our minds.
Young veterinarians in particular are probably worrying too much about that.I think clients are actually still quite forgiving.I still think that they recognize you're just there to do the very best that you can.And if you're honest and you're open and you're personable in these situations, then I think you end up invariably getting client support.
And from that the pressures have changed.It's not as.Free form I think, for young vets to die, but I think a lot of their pressure could be attributed to what they place on themselves rather than the reality of it.I agree.I feel like I've experienced, almost personally experienced that in my 2 decades.
I feel like these days I sound like an old man.People are reluctant to fail, and I feel like that reluctance to fail is not always just about the patient or the client.Some of it is that we don't want to look stupid.We have this expectation of ourselves and of each other that we've got to do perfect practice and everything's always got to work and to me, because I had to look really hard at my myself of what stops me from trying new things sometimes.
And it it's I don't want to look stupid, That's often all it comes down to, right?It's just get rather get rid of it and let everybody think you know what you're doing, then try it and fail and then people go, oh, he's an idiot, that's for me.I don't know if I feel like that happens with the others as well.I think there's also probably an element of people worrying more about their impact on the welfare of the animal.
Not that I'm not caring or primary responsible welfare an animal when I'm treating it, but a lot of them are thinking, well, I'm just not good enough to help this animal.Like I'm not skilled enough, trained enough, and I'd rather not even try, when really I know there's someone who can do a much better job than me.
And I guess being in mixed practice like when I first started, I think that.You end up being a sort of a Jack of all trades and perhaps the master of none, and the profession isn't heading that way.The profession has headed dead fastly and slowly and and in an exciting way into into specialists.
You know where I knew the profession had changed dramatically for me when I saw Facebook chatter amongst younger veterinarians about who did they?Refer their fat dog or large dog space to you know what surgical center, what surgeon, specialist.
I didn't really get what they were talking about, but that was their policies that they did certain dog space, small dogs, young dogs, little dogs than non fat dogs.But beyond that, they had in their mind that surgery for a larger dog, which as we all know is more challenging, certainly it takes longer and I would say more stressful, but you don't do that surgery.
That's a job for specialists.And you send it to a specialist surgeon or someone who identifies as a specialist surgeon in that area.And I knew the profession had changed dramatically when young vets were handling their surgical caseload like that.
There were some things that they did do and some things that they were never going to do and and weren't really that interested in upskilling or getting sort of that within their comfort zone.I think they're quite happy for that to remain always outside of their comfort zone and send it to someone else.I'm trying to decide if that's a good or a bad thing because I'm in those fat bitch bays are terrible.
I haven't spayed anything for about 10 years since starting emergency, but I think it was good that I did them like I did them and I was capable and I knew that I was capable of doing them if I had to.But I'm trying to decide could I've made my working day life as a cheap event much more, much less stressful and do the things that I enjoy doing.
And if there's somebody else who wants to do the shit stuff that I don't want to do, let them take it.It could be, I don't know, is it a good or a bad thing?Yeah.I mean, that's for sure.I'm struggling with it.I'm a bit of a traditionalist and I'm probably showing my I don't think it's a great thing for clients and their patients because it's dramatically driven up costs I suspect and accessibility to service now and so.
If you see every case that you have through the prism of, well, a specialist should be looking at this, then we are getting what we're seeing.And what I see in the pressure where the specialists are overloaded, where you have waiting lists that are 6 to 8 months long.And specialists for the obvious reasons have are working at specialty centers that have massive overheads that they've got to cover in their cost structure for clients.
Yeah, I'm not sure that it's the best thing that can possibly happen to in your career, and I think that.Each could be always pushing your comfort zones, but that's probably more my personality type as we've already discussed.So I think you should be pushing comfort zones all the time.Often when I go to the doctor, when I'm like the human doctor, when I need to go, I do look at the structure there and I often think, well, I wouldn't like that as a job.
The GP value never touches you.Or never does anything that I'd consider fun as a vet.Now any of the cool stuff and you just get farmed out to somebody else and then, as you say, then there's six months waiting list, a year waiting list to get stuff done.So it would be a shame if we ended up too far down that path for sure.
Yeah, yeah, they're stressful.I mean, we all know those fat dog spots and they're very stressful parts.But this is what I think we've signed up for.This is a difficult job.This requires skill that requires.Concentration, preparation, that it requires ongoing learning, but the rewards can be amazing.
We get to do things that no one else can do.And if you're limiting those sort of things, and you're doing those fun things that you and I probably would describe them, then I think that you're adding less interest and satisfaction, perhaps out of your career.Maybe I'm being too judgmental, but.
Well, if you said this sentence there, Mark, I kind of think of the word I must have none.Which is not really applicable to you because you're the master of quite a lot of things.Yeah, these days, right?I did some digging beforehand.And beyond the fact that you're an exceptionally well trained and well respected echo and vet, there's stuff outside of their Is it true that you're a Thai chef and you can speak Indonesian?
And we chatted a bit about music beforehand.What a big role that plays in your life.You've mastered quite a lot of things.Do you want to give us a quick grand on what is where is Warwick at the moment?What's your average working day or working week look like?What are you keeping yourself busy with?
Oh, I'm still doing quite a lot of clinical work.I'm on the downward track at the moment from my contribution at the governance level, Ava, I'm finishing up on the board.In fact, I've just come back from Sydney from my last official board meeting.So that's a five year experience with two years as the president.
In that period, and through some health reasons, I'm having to sort of stop and smell the roses and it I find that quite difficult because normally my day is lots of all sorts of stuff talking to different colleagues and being involved in the governance of sport with the Equestrian Federation or being involved in the governance of equine bets or a BI.
It's doing some practice management consultancy with practices.It was running a large practice of equine bets and small animal practice.I'm doing lots of clinical work.You know, I suffer from that affliction of not being able to say no to things or people.
So I have to learn to do that for my health reasons.Now that I'm getting more decrepit in my body and starting to fail me in different ways, I've gotta, I'll take some more time out.So I'm trying to back off.To be honest, I still love the clinical works.I just really actually like.
The client side of it, to me it's about relationships with clients now.It's about providing a service and helping them in their journey and being at the partner in what they want to achieve with their horses, no matter what they're doing with them and enjoying their company.So the day for me is still very much a clinical day, thinking about clinical cases, talking with clients and managing clients.
And that's because I wanted to be like that.I could be doing lots of other things and I tried to do that on top of it and I have done.For decades.But it's taking its toll and I need to spend some more time smelling the roses.So that comment that for you it's about the client interaction about providing value to the people.
The clinical side is how you do it, but that's not necessarily the why.Has it always been that way, Warrick or is that did that come over time?And the reason I ask, it's really fascinating when I do these interviews and I chat to vets who.Let's say 1520 plus years out and still really like the clinical work, they're still doing that.
I feel like the commonality there is I like the people and I see so many vets on the other side of their career or the especially the 1st 10 years or so and that was me for sure as well.They find the people side the most stressful thing.Like when COVID hits and we had to get the people out of the hospital, so many vets went, ah, this is fantastic, I can just work with animals, I have to deal with the bloody people.
So has that always been like that for you?I think it must have been, yeah.I started out as a university student and as a high school student working in the fast food industry.So I got to a lot of business training and I rose to management level in the fast food industry with Red Rooster Foods before I graduated as our vet.
In that management role, I learned that the customer services, that's what we're here for and that's how a successful business runs.And I don't think veterinary is any different from fast food industry in terms of its business model and how you should approach the customer.This year I've been to three weddings of clients who were babies and children.
The one I went to two weekends ago was a young woman who, when she was born, I used to rock her in her pram.When I arrived on the property while her mother left her with me and went and caught the horse in the paddock, And I've maintained that sort of intergenerational relationship with clients.
And a woman asked me to vet check a pony last week for her daughter.And I remember going to that woman's her eight-year old birthday party from her parents because she wanted me at her party because I'd looked after her pony when she was eight.Well, now she's got an 8 year old that she's looking.
For a pony.And that to me is the quintessential reason that I'm still in practice.It's that type of experience that gives me the joy of getting out of bed and dealing with my clients and their horses.And it's a great job when you could have those longterm relationships.
The story that that I was told and I still hear is that you've got to keep your client at arm's length at all time and don't give them your private phone number and keep your.Facebook page locked down and don't friend them and things like that and my approach was probably the opposite that to to that isn't it is that I just had boundaries for clients there was no doubt about that but I enjoyed that sort of identity and that relationship that I had with clients that I was key part of their family and key to keeping their horses and animals well and healthy and achieving and was there for them in times of often quite difficult and.
Threshold circumstances when the horses were injured or hurt.So I've been asked to give away a client who didn't have a father, so I did.I walked her down the aisle and so I was a father figure to that client growing up.So, you know, really special things.Those are the things that stand out in my mind more memorable than what I actually did with their horses to fix them for those particular individuals.
The term that springs to mind that I'm learning over the last couple of years is emotional labor.It feels like you other than just the physical labor, you be willing to do the emotional labor, which is hard because it is it's labor of some sort.But the impression I get over and over again is that it pays back in in dividends investing that emotional labor and not just the risk.
When we talk about this sort of approach of putting in more for the client is that we're doing it for the client.But what I'm seeing more and more is that we do it for ourselves really as well.Because when you have that approach, things seem easier.It seems more connected, more fun really.
The level of trust that the client has in you just removed so many barriers to patient care, and they're just so.Embedded in trust with what you say, what you want to do, diagnostically following diagnosis and your treatment plan.They just so invested in it because they're so invested in you that that makes your job so much is it really makes your job more effective and certainly much more efficient.
And the trick is when you run a practice is to get that culture across every individual in your practice, whether it be your receptionist, nursing team or your technician team or your other vets.Is that?That they're all part of that confidence framework that the client has in you.
It extends to your team.If they really invested in you and your skills and your dedication and your passion about helping them, they recognize that and accept that from your team.And that then solves that issue around, well, if you're not available, you're not the sole provider of services to them.
So that does allow you to have that space away when you need it.Either physically or emotionally and mentally, you can get that space from those clients because they have the same sort of trust and maybe not the same depth of relationship, but they certainly don't have any roadblocks or walls up to having that relationship with other members of your team.
In a larger practice, you can't run any other way.Otherwise you might as well just be in practice on your own.That's really useful.Maybe that's the secret is to say yes go beyond the just the transactional relationship with your customers but have those boundaries and make sure it make sure you don't adapt that savior syndrome of well, it's all up to me the buck stops with me if I'm not here.
Things fall apart.If you can shift that and have a team to support you to say here we go beyond.But also I can't step away and I know somebody else is gonna fill the void that I leave when I'm not there.Yeah.And that was the approach that I talked about.Yeah, nice.Quick detour from a conversation with Warrick for a message from one of our sponsors and then we will get straight back to the show.
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Also, what a cool slogan.OK, back to work.I do want to ask you about the Ava stuff and the thrive things and all of that.But before we go there, I do just want to take a pause at the smelling of the roses.You said earlier you need to get better at the At the Roses.
We chatted beforehand about music, your love of music and your awesome story with Nick Cave and that.And somebody else told me that music plays a big role in your life.Is that right?Yeah, I sort of collect music.I have a fairly eclectic taste.
I've got about 7000 CD's and and collections and I'm into live music, so I travel.I travel around a lot around Australia.Over the last 20 years I've managed to go and see a lot of live music.And yeah, there's a couple of three or four bands that I follow religiously.
Yeah.I've been known to follow around bands around Australia when they're on 2 international bands and then I've also.Been known to torture students in my car by making them listen to quite esoteric type music.Yeah.So what are those three or four bands?
If you had to name the top three or four bands, I'm curious now.I'm probably regarded as one of the most dedicated and active died pretty fan, died pretty in Australian band that officially broke up in the 2000s, but they still play shows every now and then.I follow a band called Tool as well, which is a little bit out of my generation, but progressive rock sort of band.
And then I really like world music, like quite a lot of the and Middle Eastern type music I follow as well and a few a few musicians there and a doodle player that I follow in a big way as Jubar and Gaspardan from Armenia.So all sorts of music.
Ed Cooper is another Australian talent that I've traveled all over and see him whenever he plays live.There are probably some names I could drop.That's good.I should get a playlist of you help me discover.I'm definitely gonna look for some of those.So what role does that play in your life, do you think?
Why the music?How does it fit into the balanced life or the life of Warwick Vale?Oh, I look, it's it's the mental side of it, definitely.It's the mental health side of it.I mean, I recognize that me listening to music in touch with myself.
And so from a relaxing blown away decluttering my head with the buzz and the adrenaline, I find the music is to be quite sort of.I like very emotional.I quite like quite dark music.And so I find it almost cathartic listening to music.
And for me, it's definitely an emotional.Experience.So it's about resetting emotions.That would probably be the best thing that that it does for me.And yeah, it's just a lot of fun that brings the travel into it.It brings catching up with likeminded people.
I'm involved in quite a large online forum that trades live music bootlegs and I I'm involved in that forum where we collect shows of bands that we all follow and that's 100,000 people.Community worldwide and the Internet helps with all that, sort of.Socialization into groups and finding people that are like minded so it's part of your Wellness. self-care, staying sane and not becoming just work.
The vet.There's more to work than just that.Correct.You know, yeah.And like I think it was because I spent.The first probably 20 years of my career, pretty much on the road doing up to 80,000 kilometers a year, visiting property.
Property is as first a mixed and then a primarily an equine practition.That's a lot of time on the road and the only thing that I spend money on in my car was to have a fantastic music system.In one case, you know, when I was a uni student, my music system in my car was worth more than my car.
If I'm listening to music, it's got to be quality and sound and so yeah, you get a lot of time on the road.You're not.Not distracted.You're basically just heading, making an hour to drive to some client's property.Well, there's an hour of time where you listen to some music on the way, sing along, tap along are there for students in the car or nurses in the car.
Well, they get exposed to it and have to put up with it as well.It's called education.You're educating them to proper music.Like it's led to some close relationships.My love of music especially.I've got nurses who used to work for me, who who will come and see bands with me.
I'm into that music simply because they spend that time with me.See, I'm trying really hard to indoctrinate my kids in a similar way, but I feel like I'm it's a losing battle.We have a We have one of those smart speakers in the house, and then I'll put something on and all they have to do is say hey Siri, please play some other song.
And then we Then I lose the battle because it's a constant battle about their modern music, and then the cool stuff I want them to listen to.It's not like the old cast Theo where the driver chooses.Definitely.Technology has changed all that.Now they've got an audio playing device in their room, in their bed with them, with the phone, you know, having that.
Whereas I used to have to go and put a CD in the CD machine, you know, or vinyl on.But interesting enough, my young children.Well, they're young adults, you know, in 1922 and they they, they play vinyl now in their rooms.You know, they've got vinyl setups and they collect vinyl and I just thought that was just cool.
They thought it was cool, but now they actually listened.They like it and listened to it, and so the the the whole, it's going around in a circle, which is lovely to see from my perspective.So out of the things you do, somebody I spoke to described you as possibly the busiest person they know.
One of the things you do outside of your passions and your horsework is the Ava stuff that you talked about.So you had distinct as president of the Ava and then I understand that you were fairly that you're quite instrumental in the Wellness part of the Ava stuff.So the Thrive program that you guys have, is that right?
Is that were you heavily involved in that aspect of it?Yeah, look, when I first took on the presidency, it became apparent to me that we were still had.Major issues with mental health and suicide within the profession.And I could see a lot of the resources and activities that Ava were providing and had developed to help the profession.
And yeah, I just had an innate suspicion that we may not be getting the results that we should be getting.And what, was there better mental health and was there less suicide?And so I just asked the profession, the membership and my team.So why are we doing?
The best we possibly can.And now we're getting those results.And if we're not, I'd like to set a big, here audacious goal, which was to set the organization on to guiding and leading the profession to a 50% reduction in suicide within the next five years and you know, a concurrent better mental health across the profession.
And to make it an industry wide, sector wide profession wide approach so that we encapsulated nurses and everyone else who works in the veterinary clinical team whether they were Ava members or not, what type of that didn't matter what type of practice they were in.Ava was the only body that was going to be able to show that sort of leadership and perhaps pulled together to have a very holistic profession encompassing approach.
We looked in the mirror and and saw that well we were doing really good in some areas, but in other areas we just weren't active and that was probably why we're getting the results that I would like to, I thought we should be getting.And to the credit of Avi and the membership and the Avi team is that they really took this to heart and we invested quite a lot of money and some research.
And from that has come a major realignment of our overall strategy at Avi.Around the Wellness of the profession, the middle of the profession is now paramount as our strategic initiative, one of our strategic pillars and one of the tangible things that has come out of it is our Thrive program, which is still in the building and developmental phase, but it's also been an awareness amongst the profession that and more talk and more media and more.
Discussions, more water cooler, moments around, well, how is our mental health?How are we doing and are we doing all what we should be doing?Are we achieving what we should be achieving?And if not, why not and how can we do it better?So that's sort of what started it.
And as a citizen, the development and building phase and there's been a lot of learnings out of that research.So the research, is that the Wellness survey that you guys just ran a couple of years ago, is that what we're talking about?Yeah, the Super Friends report, which was a sort of a large membership survey about all of the psychosocial risk factors for poor mental health for veterinarians.
And I've identified many common factors that are the same to all people in all workplaces.Whether you're a trades person or you're a physio or an office worker, you there are a lot of the similar psychosocial factors that that occur as part of your professional, your workplace, that.
That we share in common as veterinarians.So we're not that unique.However, there were some other you know ones that were aligned with being a veterinarian and I a bit more unique to the workplace culture and environment of a veterinary practice.
And those are things that we sort of knew they were there, but we're probably.Weren't addressing them in a way.I think we're where we're doing very well was in the protect sort of space and where we're able to help people once they had a mental crisis.
But in terms of coming before that, I think the survey showed us that we were missing the ball.I guess the really pertinent quote from one of those surveyed veterinarians was that.It's all well and good to fix us when we've become broken.
You know, give us the counseling, psychiatric report, time off and but why don't you stop us from getting broken in the 1st place.And that's the sort of area where I think that Ava and a lot of services weren't playing in that space well in the prevention or the promotion space.
And so that recognition is now driving a the development of a holistic campaign, a holistic.Framework for mental health across the profession that includes the prevent strategies, the promotion, promoting the positive about the profession and protecting those that are actually affected adversely in their mental health.
So let's recap those.Let's prevent.So get in the front and go upstream.Promote the positive to say, look, because that is something I'm always mindful of on the podcast.And in the broader sense, when we talk about all the Wellness things and the negative things that need to be fixed, there is the risk that all we end up talking about is all the negative stuff.
And it becomes a bit of an echo Chamber of, oh, this profession sucks so much, it's so hard.You almost indoctrinate the new grads before they start working that well, this is going to be terrible, get ready for it.Whereas there's so much to promote that's so good when speaking to people like yourself going what's good about it, so prevent, promote and then protect is that if there is somebody who has a going through a bad period or a burnout episode or something like that, that there are resources to help people if things do go wrong.
Yeah, when the train comes off the tracks, we can protect those people in crisis.But the other two areas that prevent and promote is they're equally as important.And the research was telling us that, funnily enough, the same factors that are a risk for poor mental health.
Are often the same factors that are protective of your mental health.So interactions with clients, for example, is at the top of the list for so positive.Interactions with clients is at the top of the list for protecting your mental health, promoting and and keeping your mental health into the risk factor positive, but also adverse interactions.
Where we are at the highest point, why veterinarians told us their mental health wasn't very good is because of adverse.Interactions with clients and for me with that statement, it echoes true except that I think where we fail as individuals is to put it into perspective.
You know, 99% of client interactions and case outcomes that we have are all excellent in our day.But was that one client that's upset or complaints or a bad outcome, you get that, that ruins your whole day.And we need to frame the way we think about that and realize that, well, that's always going to happen.
There's always going to be some clients that that are grumpy and and upset for different reasons and not every case is going to go according to plan so to speak.But the vast majority will and the vast majority will be great outcomes and will be protective of your mental health.
And those are the ones that when we we really need to think about.They're the ones that if you can get them into perspective and and they take over the overwhelming feeling of stress and drama when you have an adverse.Reaction that I think we can reset the way we approach and the way we feel about our work on a day-to-day basis, that's fascinating.
The thing that's the best of it can also be the worst of it and it's finding that it's walking that path, walking that I heard a concept a while ago about that.You know the yin Yang symbol, the black and white little curvy line in the middle.The symbolism of that is really that this order and chaos, so good and bad, and the WAVY line in the middle, the curved line is the path and it is straddling that line.
If you go too far on the one end, everything is chaos and bad.If you go too far on the other end, you miss out on some of the good things.And the path is finding that balance between the two and then also accepting that at periods you will step too far to the one side.So when we talk about the client interaction, for example, there will be times where it'll be too much, maybe work too much or you have had an abnormal amount of.
Adverse interactions and unpleasant negative interactions.And then we'll pull you into that one side, but then let the other side pull you back on the path again.That's a really cool concept.Celebrate and savor you wins.It's changing your mindset in that sense that I think will make a big difference to people and their enjoyment out of their careers and the daytoday clinical work culture.
But their findings in that study work that surprised you because, I mean, you've been in the profession for a long time.You were the president.You sort of immersed in all of this for a for a lifetime really.So you'd think that a lot of it would be almost common sense to you.But were there findings in there that you went?
I didn't see that one coming.Yes, there were.And those findings were around workplace culture, where I thought the industry and the culture had changed more than what it apparently has.So you know what I'm talking about is.
Workplace remuneration, workplace hours of employment, workplace culture with the way people are treated in a workplace with no, no lunch breaks and expected to work after hours for no incentive, no remuneration.
I thought that was a dinosaur.I thought that had finished and that they weren't practices that had veterinarians, you know, working in them that were subjected to that type of culture today.I mean, that was very much when I graduated and. 1989 and I started on a $20,000 a year salary.
There would no after hours incentives or bonuses and was on call every second weekend.I thought that culture had gone.I I I thought that that it was out there but was the Unicorn, not the horse, so to speak, of what was happening in.We have too many veterinarians employed in workplace cultures where they don't aren't properly supported and they are subjected to those type of.
Pressures of poor pay, long hours, poor workplace culture and no teamwork and often feel isolated and and deflated and like there are practices in our profession still out there like that for me was a surprise.The magnitude of of that issue was a surprise to me.
Still in 2000, and you know nineteen 2020 that we were still still talking about veterinarians who are earning less per hour than.Cleaners in a hotel, you know, So I laugh because I think it's just preposterous that we are here.
Their take home message for me there was not that these practice owners or cultures were abusive because that's the way they wanted to be.Their business model was such that there was no other way to run their business.You know they were not making the profit or the return on investment to remunerate themselves as practice owners.
Any better than their employees and and so until we improve that those business models it's going to be very difficult for those practices to change those risk factors around why why veterinarians are leaving the profession and why their experience in the profession hasn't been like Malone which is great fun.
I've made some money.I've traveled or I've, you know, I love it.But that's not the experience of of of vast majority.Of the early career veterinarians, they're telling us that, well, they're telling us that even without the survey, they're leaving the profession.It's interesting because I'm like you.
I think I've managed to surround myself with the positive aspects a lot.Where I work, when I do my clinical work, is super supportive.And then on here I speak to people who are doing well in the profession.So I'm the same as you.I've been into 20 ideas and I also feel like, well, yeah, the stuff that we did as youngsters, that that's not out there anymore.
And again, then you go to a conference or something, you chat to people and you hear stories.You go, really, that still happens.Really.That's, as you say, preposterous is the right word.Preposterous is absolutely the right word.And it's sad and I can see it from both sides.Being a practice owner and being a business consultant and practice consultant, I've gone into some of these practices.
It's a vicious.Nasty business cycle that they're in and it's not healthy for anybody involved in those businesses, the people who own them, the people who work and they're struggling and it's sad.Getting into those practices and trying to turn them around is the single biggest challenge we've got as a profession.
Yeah, Yeah.So is that part of the strategy of the Thrive thing is to say, well, so we can help the individuals on the front end and make them increase resilience.And you know all the things that make us cope better in the the difficult job that is being a vet.
But as a part of that strategy, also to help practice owners and businesses make that environment as pleasant as possible, make the hard work more achievable, more sustainable.Definitely.It's going to be across everything.It's not, I thought, that that there might be a magic bullet in what we we go.
To a supporter who can help us invest money in all the interventions that are needed to improve mental health, at the end of the day that's not going to happen.But the industry actually has to take responsibility for its state, the good and the bad, and it needs to change the paradigm itself, no one else's.
There's no other government agency or support structure that's going to come out and fix everything for us within our own businesses and with their own workplace cultures of profession.We actually have to do it ourselves.And the AVAI think role there is to provide the tools, the leadership and also to to give the role models, to showcase the role models where it can be done, where there are practices that are achieving these great workplaces where people don't leave, where they want to stay, where they're on excellent, you know, working conditions and remuneration.
And where they have, they feel supportive.And they're having fun, You know, they're going to work.Being a veterinarian in clinical practice is delivering everything, meeting all of their needs, you know, emotionally, financially, psychologically and and from a fun perspective from a lifestyle, career wise, it's meeting all of those.
We have many great practices that are doing that.I mean, I don't want to focus on on the negative as you said, let's not talk about all the bad things.This is a fabulous profession and there's some very, very great examples of.Leaders and practices that are nailing this, that are really doing a great job with this, but there's some outliers as well.
So what I'd love to dig into a little bit.So we're talking big picture stuff.So this is ABA level and the macro.But then the person who actually suggested you as a guest to me is somebody who on the micro level, on the individual level, you've had a massive impact on.
Somebody got in touch with me and said they were going through a really tough time in their career and somehow got connected to yourself and you then took the time to hold the hand really to open doors for them and and to help on an individual level.
And I really like that contrast almost of Warrick doing the the big thinking and how do we help the whole profession.But then also being willing and having the confidence and the skills to go on an individual level came while he is an individual person who needs help.
Let me see what I can do here.How do you identify somebody like that as pausing to saying, well, there's somebody who I can make a difference to?And then the next thing is having the the confidence and the ability to say yes, I'm going to actually act.
I'm not just going to watch or see because I know for myself I've been in situations where you see somebody struggling and then you make an assessment to go.I don't think I'm capable of helping.I should say psychologist or somebody else can help with that or I'd love to help but I don't have the time or I don't have the emotional bandwidth.
Help me figure out how do we help somebody individually like that as well it mindset wise.I can only speak for myself obviously, but you know, for me I've always enjoyed helping younger veterinarians with their career and in their day-to-day lives.And you know, with this individual that I managed to hook up with, it was through a mutual love of music.
You know each.He saw that he'd been out of the profession for a long time for for some issues related to substance abuse and it was it was not registered anymore as a veterinarian and his career he thought was over as a veterinarian and and he was not in a good place because of that and mentally that he was struggling and he contacted me because he saw that I was also I was a fan of Tool as as a band and Tool at that stage were to about to tour Australia.
And I posted somewhere, well, this is very exciting.Can't wait.Got my tickets or something and on a Facebook forum and he saw that and he thought that was quite weird that I was into Tool.He thought that was a very unusual band for someone of my generation or for the Ava president to be into.
Yes, A/B, a president to rock up to a Tool gig.And so he reached out to me, he said, do you like Tool?And of course I'm just mad about Tool and he said I'm mad about Tool And so I've got talking to him and trading a whole lot of collectible stuff that I've got and and sign stuff I've got from the band and and he just was blown away by my history with the witches was a lot longer than his.
So we bonded over that.And so he approached me and then.I remember I I said to him, well let's catch up socially.He was in Perth.He remembered me teaching at the university about career and being a veterinarian in their professional life development course, where I was often lectured on a yearly basis to students about my career and what I've done and and for how much fun it had been and so forth.
So I took him out for dinner, a short story, and it was really apparent that he was quite uncomfortable at dinner.And I said, well, what are you worried about?He said, Oh, look, I.I don't think we should be sitting here, I said, what do you mean?And we're sitting at the front of the restaurant, close to the footpath, this tiny restaurant.
He said, yeah, we should sit down the back.And I said, why do we need to sit down the back?He said, I I don't want people to see me sitting with you as a BA president, someone like me, you know?It really floored me that he was embarrassed.For me that me associated with him would be a reputational risk to me because he so devalued his own worth and his own status as a veterinarian.
You know, he felt that he was a disgraced veterinarian and I just didn't think like that.And and to be honest, my heart broke.I just thought, this here's a guy that, you know, he seems like a lovely fellow and and I've got a lot in common with him.And so I just asked him straight out and said look.
Where are you going and what do you want to do?You know this I I understand your journey and and he told me a lot about his issues with substance abuse and mental health and I said what do you want to be?He said I just want to get back into the profession.I said well you're going to have to do that on your own but I think I might be able to open some doors for you.
Come and spend some time with me.Let's see if we can have some fun together.And that was my approach originally was to just say well look I'll I'll support you in this and.Come and just spend a day in the car with me and drive around.You're not a vet, you don't have to be a vet, but come and just spend some time experiencing again after eight years what it's like to be a vet.
And from that point onwards the rest is sort of history.He's now moving towards getting back registration, which I anticipate will be this year and he's in a fabulous space mentally.I've got him some other support mentors that I that I've tapped into.
I've called up a few favors.From colleagues to also mentor him and we're on a structured pathway through the Veterinary practitioners Board here to get him back registered again.And I've seen a huge transformation and another friendship.This will be a lifelong, very close friendship that I've made with this individual and I speak to him on a daily basis.
He's a lovely, lovely man and he's making great improvements.So I don't know, maybe I attract these types of people maybe because I just like talking to them.And I think it's primarily human, because I really strongly believe that this is a fantastic profession and that it can deliver anything and everything and everything you want, and it can be so rewarding.
It can give you everything that you need, but sometimes you just need to get someone to help you look at it like that.And if it's my example of the fun and the success that I've had, that helps people grow.But if it's direct mentoring then I'm happy to give it to.I have mentored some people out of the profession because I can recognize that for them as individuals, that's never going to make their needs and but that doesn't mean they've made a wrong career choice.
I mean, it's so flexible being a veterinarian that you don't have to get out of bed in the morning and go and look at a lame horse every day.Your career, you can do so many things with it.That's the exciting thing about this profession and I get a real big buzz out of.Helping people the the gift is in the giving.
It's not in the receiving.So I learned that one of the key things to my mental health was helping others.That you have to be able to help others and be selfless about that, because that's what gives me my happiness every day.That restocks and fills refills my mental health tank of of of happiness, I guess.
The helping of helping of others and it's immeasurable that the enjoyment that you get by giving back to your community.And that's why I sort of got involved in a VI in in a governance sort of why I tried to improve the profession.That's why I got involved in a question sports governance, where was national president of the Question Association here in Australia for a number of years and sat on their board over 20 year period.
I wanted the sport to be better.I wanted the the experience for people in the sport to be better this generation than what it was last generation.And that's been the same approach that I've taken with the veteran profession through my engagement with the Econ Vets of Australia and and with Avi.
It's about giving, Yeah, paved the way behind you.So saying, I heard ones that I really like, paved the way behind you, not in front of you.Yeah, I think we have this responsibility as veterinarians to hand on our knowledge.To create a better workplace, a better work environment and a better career opportunities than we had when when we were younger.
That's the whole thing of saying when I was all you're lucky today, young bets.When I was a kid, young bet, I was on course seven nights a week.I mean that's like that, you know and 1020 hours a day and I never had a day off for three months and that might have been what you did and but would you want your children?
If they were veterinarians to have experienced that, no, I would want it to be better.Well, these are your children.These are your professional colleagues that are coming on.And even if you the only prison you look at it through is that we want animals to be to be catered for in their in their welfare and their health into the future in a better way than we've been able to, then we've gonna keep the profession sustainable.
So we've got it.We've got to really nurture the service providers, the key talent.That's in there and the only people that can hand on that knowledge and upskill.These younger veterinarians are the ones that are more advanced in their career and you should do it till it bleeds.
You should do it until it hurts and then rest and then do it again.I like that.I'd love to refocus on that one and one help because again, it's one thing to say, well there's all these resources and there's all these things out there for to help people to do the prevent and the protect part of what we talked about earlier.
But sometimes you need somebody to guide, to walk that journey with you.If if information was the answer, then none of us would have an issue because all the information in the world is out there to help you do anything.But sometimes you need that mentor, that guiding hand, and I'd love to help other people, help other people in this profession to if you are faced.
Because I feel like it's potentially easier for you emotionally and mentally to commit to helping somebody because you have all this experience, you've mentored before in unofficial and official capacities.You're the Ava presidency, you've got all these connections.But somebody listening to this, let's say, five years out and going well and then you faced with the situation like yourself bumping into somebody, meeting somebody, working with somebody who is not winning and who needs the help.
And I'd love people to have the courage to help and to make that assessment and go, yeah, this is going to cost me something like I like that you say the word, do it until it bleeds.Because sometimes it it can be the there's the the necessity to protect yourself and your own wellbeing and not taking on too much, but then also taking on something extra and saying, well, how can I help you?
I don't know.Have you got any advice, even if it is just mindset around that or any resources to say to somebody, well, yes, jump in, help help this person and have the confidence because why?How do you think about this as an individual who's not the Ava president?
Yeah, yeah, it's.I guess what I'd say is that you gotta do that conversation in your head.What's in it for me and does it make me feel important or what, You know, what's the investment, return on investment here?Most feds are very compassionate people.
You know, this is a curing profession that we're in.And we really want to do the best and and we don't want to hear about bad outcomes and bad situations and we love great results.So to see those great results and you can get them just by dipping your toe in the water.
I suspect you know you don't have to be the A/B a president to help someone.I I guess that what you're saying is, well, how do you get in their mindset?How do you do that if you if you're not a BA president?I didn't do it because I was IBA president.It's it's simply because of my humanity.
I think you've just got to have the humanity around and the collegiality.I mean, this is a unique profession where there's only small numbers of us in this country, in this, on this planet that are bets.I mean, you can go to go somewhere in the world and I and I I bet you I can, but I bet you with time that that most veterinarians can look at someone.
In a public setting who they don't know and how it gets some suspicion.I reckon that person could be a vet and I reckon you'd be right sort of, you know, 8090% of the time.And maybe there's that sort of the false or some sort of aura that a veterinarian gives off to other veterinarians.
And you know, we want to keep that strong.But you've got to love your colleagues.I mean, you know, sort of team support, one-on-one collegial support.Even if it's just talking about cases and and decision making, you've got and and reaffirming your sort of you know where you're at with it clinically with a case.
We need colleagues.We need to have that And so you can extend that to be on well, you know, do you think I've done the right thing with this horse with this sore joy to being?Do you think I've done the right thing with helping this person.And I think it's about your own empathy and your own sense of caring.
And your own commitment to the profession and colleagues in all ways, whether it be helping them academically or clinically or from an upskilling point of view, through to the whole of life, Wellness or happiness.And sometimes you can learn something back from these people.
And in fact, I think you always learn something back from those people.So it becomes a significant investment opportunity that gives you great returns.That's really useful.Thank you.I suppose Warrick, that we do need to start wrapping up.
I I I find that's really useful.We could talk about that for hours.But I think just on this podcast is the something I'm looking at more and more is it's from somebody else's talks.I think it's Jim Carrey or somebody who gave a commencement speech about love versus fear.
And when you make decisions whether to do something or not, the choice is always love versus fear.And that sounds to me what you're talking about when we talk about your career, how you interact with your clients, the job that you do, your profession and then on an individual basis that your decision making is generally love, love based right versus fear based rather than going how hard this going to be, what's the cost to me going to be?
The fear based approach never gets you there, but it's the what can I give and that that seems to light the light bulbs for you.Exactly.I think that's a pretty good thing.You've summed it up better than I.That I could.You've got to have that compassion, that love, that caring for people, for individuals for.
And you know we have a massive power, that we're highly educated as individuals in the community, we're highly resourced.The community has invested thousands and thousands of dollars in training us and skilling us, and we should be leaders in the community as veterinarians.
We should be leading in all sorts of ways.We should be helping the community just not just beyond, Yeah, helping their dogs and cats or their horses or their cows or whatever.And you know, I think we have an obligation to the community to show that leadership, to be leaders, to be because we're informed, we're scientists, We have thought processes that are robust.
We have decision making that is processes that are robust and we should be able to bring that towards helping people in other ways other than just vaccinating their dogs and cats.Yeah Gold.All right, let's wrap it up with our couple of wrap up questions.We'll start with the pass along question and ask our guest a question for our next guest.
So the question for you from our previous guest was do you think that our profession is becoming a part time profession?I don't think it's becoming a part time profession.I I I think it's becoming a profession that you that is quite sustainable if you work part time hours.
I still think you know for me the profession.It's still all-encompassing enough that to do it well even part time it's probably is still a full time mindset so to speak.But to participate in it at a clinical or an hour to hour basis or a part time basis, yeah, that that's becoming much more common and I think that's a good thing.
If the remuneration is right for a lot of people, that gives them the lifestyle that they like and in many cases will mitigate the sort of burnout and and some of those psychosocial risk workplace.Risk factors that that push you towards negative poor mental health.
So we're seeing more part time workers in the profession.I think that some of that is the feminization of the profession, which is a good thing.So it is becoming part time in its participation.But I think it's still a full time profession in terms of mindset and and where you need to and how you identify.
I think people always identify as a full time veterinarian, whether whether they work part time or not.Great answer is.What's stopping you from contributing to your profession in otherwise?
Okay?That's a good one.I can't wait for the answer to that one.All right, Warrick, do you listen to podcasts?You listen to a lot of music, obviously.Have you switched at all?Yeah, you do.Yeah, I listen to quite a few.Podcasts, yeah.
I'm one other thing that I do in the big ways is I'm into history.So I listen to a lot of history podcasts but principally around and I'm in a a book group that reviews some more esoteric historical texts on on the battle of Stalingrad.
So I'm pretty pretty in the Eastern Front, World War 2, sort of hobbyist, and so I listen to a lot of podcasts about.World War 2 history and with specific specific restaurants to the Eastern Front and Stalingrad.And I review books and we debate and review the accuracy of those, the current texts on those.
So yeah, so that's one podcast that I'm the area that I'm in.The other that I've been dabbling in is some personal development type stuff.His name is eludes me now.What's that guy that's very controversial?
He's there.He he toured here.I went and saw him speak.Jordan Peterson.Jordan Peterson Yeah, so I've been.Listening, dabbling in many of his podcasts and I find that intensely fascinating.I don't know, I certainly don't agree with everything that he says.But I find his that his thought processes intensely interesting and I went and saw him presenting a Ek toured Australia just recently and he he gave a presentation for a couple of hours here in Perth and.
There were thousands and thousands of people there, and I went and listened to him speak.He challenges me to think about things, and I like that.I like being challenged on that.So yeah, I'll jump in every now and then and listen to one of Jordan's podcasts.Have you come across the Hardcore Histories podcast with Dan Kartlin?
Yeah, I know.Yeah, I have.Yes.And I and Dan's yeah, is a pretty famous and popular historian, isn't he?I've listened to a couple of those, Yes.Yes, I have.Yeah, they, they.I find those fascinating for the history side, Okay.Then our last question, Warrick, is the the one question.
They have an opportunity to speak to all of the veterinary new grads in the world and you have a couple of minutes to give them just one little bit of advice.What is Warrick's advice?What's my advice to?The graduating year of 2023.
Go out there and get it.It's it's it's there for the taking.This is a fabulous opportunity.There's never been a better time to graduate as a veterinarian into the community now, and there's work everywhere.There's money to be made.There's opportunity.There's great fun to be had, and it won't be easy.
It's going to be really difficult and it's going to challenge you like like your undergraduate years.Haven't you think you've had a tough time being a student?It'll get even harder.But if you do the work and you stay the path and you use others to help you along and reach out to others, the opportunity that's in front of you is is ginormous for everything.
It will deliver everything that you possibly could ever want and everything you could ever want.If you tackle it in the right way and and and just just have fun with it.Just roll with it, Have fun with it.It's a great provision, spectacular.Thank you so much for your time, for this podcast and for the other time, I don't know, I'm listening to this stuff like even preparing for this, Do you have extra time in your day that we don't have?
Because all that work and then there was the the music and then somebody, like I said the the person I spoke to said you you're a chef and now I learned that you're a history buff as well.How do you get it out to it away?I don't know.
I just.I just I'm.Perhaps on my mind doesn't sort of rest.I don't sleep much.I guess that's one thing.I never go to bed before midnight or 1:00 in the morning, and I'm always up at six, 6:30, so I don't need a lot of sleep.I've never, never run on lots of sleep.
I've always been able to run quite successfully on very little sleep, and I could do most of my sort of.Productive exploring of other responsibility and fulfilling of other responsibilities late at night.So that's me.Well, thank you so much for spending that time in a way that helps us as a profession and as individuals as we learn from that story.
It just makes a big difference for everybody.So thank you so so much for everything that you do.Before you disappear, I wanted to tell you about our.New weekly newsletter.I speak to so many interesting people and learn so many new things while making the podcasts.
So I thought I'd create a little summary each week of the stuff that stood out for me.We call it the Vet Vault 321 and it consists of firstly 3 clinical pearls.These are three things that I've taken away from the clinical podcast episode.My light bulb moments.The penny dropping.
Any new facts and the stuff that we need to know to make all the other pieces fit.Then two other things This could be quotes, links, movies, books, a podcast, highlight, anything that I've come across outside of clinical wedding that I think you might find interesting.
And then one thing to think about.I'll share something that I'm pondering, usually based on something that I've read or heard, but sometimes it'll be just my own musings or ants.The goal of this format is that you can spend just two to three minutes on the clinical stuff and move right along if that's all that you're after.But if you're looking for content that is more nourishing than cat videos or doom scrolling, then our two other things should send you in the right direction and then something extra for when you feel like a slightly longer read.
If you'd like to get these in your inbox each week, then subscribe by following the newsletter link in the show description wherever you're listening to this.It's free, I think it's useful, it's fun, and it's easy to unsubscribe if it's not for you.OK.We'll see you next time.

Dr Warwick Vale